← Extremely American
Extremely American
BONUS Onward Christian Soldiers: The Christian Case Against Christian Nationalism
00:38:08
BONUS Onward Christian Soldiers: The Christian Case Against Christian Nationalism
Loading summary
Transcript48 lines
- [00:00]
Heath Druzen
This message comes from Carvana. Sell your car the convenient way, enter your license plate or vin, answer a few questions, and get a real offer in seconds. Go to Carvana.com today.
- [00:26]
Reverend Ben Kramer
Christian nationalism can come in many forms, but the basic idea behind the movement is that America should be a theocracy ruled by Christian principles. If you've listened to this season of Extremely American, you've heard about their the obliteration of separation of church and state, severe restrictions on the rights of women, religious minorities, and the LGBTQ community, and for the most part, only Christian men in government. This movement is having a moment. There are Christian nationalists in Congress and plenty of candidates running for office right now. Repeat Christian nationalist talking points. Officials in the Trump administration have been part of the movement, and if Trump wins again, we might see more of that during the season. We've heard a lot from religious leaders who support Christian nationalism. Today I wanted you to hear from Christian leaders who oppose the movement. This panel is made up of speakers from different traditions who have differing political views, but they're all troubled by the rise of Christian nationalism in the name of their faith. Reverend Ben Kramer is a pastor who spent more than 20 years in ministry. He grew up in a conservative evangelical family and writes extensively on Christian nationalism. His weekly newsletter is called into the Gray. Reverend Angela Denker is an ELCA Lutheran pastor and journalist. Her first book, Red State Christians, was a 2019 Silver Forward Indies Award winner. Her upcoming book is called Disciples of White the Radicalization of American Boyhood. She's written for publications including Sports Illustrated, the Washington Post, and Fortune magazine. Our third guest is Dr. Owen Stran. He's the provost of Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Arkansas and a conservative Baptist. He's the author of such books as the War on Men and In Christianity and Wokeness. Angela, I wanted to start with you. Why should regular Americans care about Christian nationalism? Most people out there probably aren't familiar with this movement, so tell them why you think they should take it seriously.
- [02:35]
Reverend Angela Denker
Yeah, I feel a particular responsibility to speak out against Christian nationalism. I didn't anticipate that this would be my path when I first began work in ministry as a Lutheran pastor. But when I began researching for my first book, Red State Christians, I was told time and time again by pastors, religious leaders, and ordinary Christians that this gospel of Christian nationalism was really crowding out the gospel of Jesus. And part of my particular calling to speak against this movement comes from the fact that I am of German Lutheran heritage. And I see many unfortunate parallels between the embrace of a nationalist Christianity here in America and the ways in which German Nazis and German Christians embraced Nazism. And what happens when you do that is you fall victim to embracing particular violence against minorities. Not only religious minorities, racial minorities, sexual minorities. And we see all of these acts of violence perpetrated in the name of Jesus. So there's a long historical tradition here. It's not only a partisan movement. This isn't a partisan argument, but rather it's an argument against the perversion of the Gospel of Jesus.
- [03:51]
Reverend Ben Kramer
Ben, do you want to jump in on that opening question?
- [03:53]
Dr. Owen Stran
Yeah, I think one of the reasons I want the average American to be more aware of it is having been one who was raised in a very Christian nationalist movement in rural Idaho, homeschooled K through 12 in a Christian sect called Christian Identity, which is the same movement that led to the founding of the Aryan nations in Northern Idaho. I think when we imagine what extremists look like, we think of men riding with pointy hats on horses or goose stepping and doing the heil. But really, in the homeschool movement that contained hundreds of families in my community, we all dressed up in suits and dresses to churches, and we all looked very much like the normal people around us. And so I think there is such a need to understand how this shapes theology, shapes our belief system, shapes our view of the world. When a little boy like me grew up with a very racialized and really poisonous view of masculinity and fear and view of the end times, that was all shaped around us, needing to take back not only the world, but the government for God. I was reloading shotgun shells next to canned foods, preparing for the end of the world when I was seven. And that was my experience. And I think sometimes we don't really understand that this isn't just an abstract movement, but some of us were raised to believe that and have only recently started to question those things that we called convictions and start to unprogram those things as we. As we move on in life.
- [05:39]
Heath Druzen
Owen, I know you're a pretty conservative guy. It seems like politically, from what I can tell, you have a fair amount in common with some of the Christian nationalist folks that I've been speaking with over the last year. For example, you're critical of what you see as wokeness. You object to women and clergy, but you've also made a lot of enemies on the Christian right, especially Christian nationalists. They've said some really harsh things about you. So tell me a little bit about why you started sounding the alarm about this movement and what is Drawing conservative Christians to Christian nationalism.
- [06:16]
Dr. Owen Stran
Yeah, my primary concern with Christian nationalism is exegetical and theological, and so there are all sorts of discussions you can have around Christian nationalism and the circles that it is incubating in. I fundamentally do have a fair bit of agreement with a bunch of folks who would identify as Christian nationalists. And there's a spectrum of Christian nationalists. This often happens where there's a term that is used and then somewhat unexpectedly, a bunch of conservative Christians have embraced that term. But in reality, as I'm sure your podcast has brought out and will bring out, there's a range of folks on the Christian nationalist spectrum, and I myself would approach that spectrum with less concern, all the way up to grave concern, depending on what we're talking about. My concerns are first ordered around the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel is the good news of salvation for sinners like me, that Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for my sins, bearing the just wrath of God, and has made a way for me to have fellowship and know God's love for all eternity. And I'm concerned that if you're not careful, you can subtly pervert the nature of the gospel and thus the mission of the church. And you can make this was alluded to a few minutes ago, you can make the message of the Bible about reclaiming America or making America formally Christian or even preaching. And then there's this mass movement and that leads to the nation going Christian. And what that can do is it can center the hopes of Christians not in the crucified, resurrected and returning Christ, the genuine Christ, the real one, but a Jesus who is leading a political movement and wants America to be formally Christian. I want America to be very much influenced by Christian truth, by the Scripture. I want good in all dimensions of life, and I try to be a voice for the church to be salt and light. Matthew 5, 13:16 in the public square. On the other hand, though, I have grave concerns going back to that spectrum in terms of what I would identify as a kinist wing of the Christian Nationalist Project.
- [08:32]
Heath Druzen
Yeah. And we will talk more about kinism later. Angela, I know you. You also have looked at what's drawing people to Christian nationalism. I think your upcoming book gets into that a bit. Obviously I haven't read it because it's not out yet, but do you have some thoughts on what's drawing people to the movement?
- [08:50]
Reverend Angela Denker
Yeah. You know, I'm the mom of two white Christian boys, and what I'm hearing a lot from other parents and from religious leaders is that there's a lot happening with young boys and young men that's drawing them into spaces that are filled with hatred and violence. And so they're drawn to really this vision of Jesus. Jesus has been made into sort of a militarized Jesus. You can see a lot of that iconography on the American right right now. And so yes, my new book is going to look at what is happening with boys and young men. Why are they being drawn into these spaces, Whether it's someone like Andrew Tate, all kinds of YouTubers that I've seen, you know, come across as my boys are going through YouTube. But I think it's also there is a space and a lack coming from both the right and the left. You know, the right tends to be concerned with what's happening for boys and men as how do we help them, how do we support them. The left tends to be more concerned with the violent output of boys and men and how it's threatening women and other minorities. And I think there's a space where we really need to do both. And certainly that's important to me both as a pastor and as a mom.
- [10:07]
Heath Druzen
This message comes from Schwab. At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own. Plus get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This message comes from NPR sponsor Lisa Good sleep should come naturally, and with the new Natural Hybrid mattress, it can. A collaboration between Leesa and West Elm, the Natural Hybrid is expertly crafted from natural latex, natural wool and certified safe foams to elevate your sleep sanctuary and support a greener tomorrow. Plus, every purchase helps fuel Lisa's work with shelters and those in need. Visit Lisa.com to learn more. That's L E E S A.com this.
- [11:07]
N/A
Message comes from Sony Pictures Classics presenting the Room Next Door, the first English language feature film by Pedro Almodovar starring Julianne Moore and Tilda Swinton. After years of being out of touch, two friends meet again in an extreme but strangely sweet situation. Winner of the golden lion for Best Film at the Venice Film Festival, the Room Next Door is now playing in select cities, coming soon to theaters nationwide.
- [11:33]
Heath Druzen
I'm going to throw this question to to Ben here, but but I definitely want to go around the panel. Ben, you grew up very Conservative, evangelical, around a lot of people who had Christian nationalist views. But you changed. You didn't leave Christianity. You just left that mindset.
- [11:54]
Reverend Ben Kramer
Can you lay out your Christian case.
- [11:57]
Heath Druzen
Against Christian nationalism for us?
- [12:00]
Dr. Owen Stran
Man? Gosh, I feel like that's a really long conversation, but I'd love to try to distill it just to a few.
- [12:11]
Heath Druzen
Maybe the short version for our audience, if you don't mind.
- [12:14]
Dr. Owen Stran
Yeah, sure. I think biblically and theologically, as it's been said already, I do think it reorients the church to try to resemble the empire, to try to actualize the power of God in the world in the way that looks like the power of the empire, rather than embodying the power that we see in the cross. And I think those are two very different definitions of power that we see embodied by Jesus as opposed to, say, the Roman Empire. They both embodied power in very different ways. And I think nationalism has a very distinct definition of power that is in complete contrast to how the power of God was magnified and exemplified through the person of Jesus Christ in the world that Christ called his church to embody in the world. And so when you confuse the power of the empire with the power of the gospel, I really do think it not only presents a group of people taking Christ's name in vain to embody a definition of power that. That Christ never envisioned himself, but it also loses our distinct prophetic identity as the church to hold the empire accountable when it misuses and abuses power, especially to the poor, the vulnerable, the oppressed, the marginalized, the imprisoned, the sick, the hungry, the very people that Jesus called his disciples to care for and to advocate for.
- [13:45]
Heath Druzen
And Owen, I know you're coming at this from maybe a different, you know, a different perspective. So I'm curious to hear your Christian case against Christian nationalism.
- [13:57]
Dr. Owen Stran
Yeah, fundamentally, I think we've got to recognize that the church has a mission and the church is shaped by the crucified Christ, as I was saying a few minutes ago. And so our expectations in this world are not fundamentally that we are the ones who are going to make the world right. There is tremendous evil in this world and injustice and oppression and wrong. And the church is here to be a force for good in the world. And yet I do not believe that our shoulders are freighted with the expectation that we are the ones who are going to put the world to rights and make all the sad things come untrue. Fundamentally, here we have no lasting city. Hebrews 13, 12, 14. But fundamentally, you've got to set your expectations Correctly in biblical terms. And the eschatology of Scripture, as I read it, as best I humbly can, is not that we are in the place of Jesus and we make the nations bow to Jesus and we can make this world right. My expectation is that we are here to make disciples. One small point here would be when conservative evangelicals, including those drawn to Christian nationalism, read the Great Commission of Matthew 28:18-20, we read it differently in the conservative evangelical world. Someone like me would say, we're called to make disciples of all nations, as Jesus says. And that means I take Bob from accounting out to Starbucks, and he and I, you know, have a discipleship relationship. And so that's making a disciple, training him in the ways of Christ as God works in his heart. The Christian nationalist movement would want to have coffee, you know, that great latte with Bob, probably at the local coffee shop, I should say. But they would also see that mandate of the great commission, Matthew 28, as saying, you don't just disciple Bob or Joy from your corporate workplace, you make America your disciple. You disciple Sweden, you disciple Uganda, you disciple Japan. And that's again where I would have a major break. And I would say, that is not at all how we do discipleship. Sweden is not in trouble and under church discipline for not showing up at church.
- [16:09]
Heath Druzen
And it's interesting that you bring up the Great Commission because that has come up over and over and over again in my reporting, and it sounds like a really kind of big dividing line. Angela, do you want to weigh in on this as well?
- [16:23]
Reverend Angela Denker
Yeah, I would love to. In historical Lutheranism, we have a contrast between what's called a theology of glory and a theology of the cross. And the theology of glory is sort of this. It's a paradoxical theology, but it is very much in contrast not only with Christian nationalism, but also with the prosperity gospel. The prosperity gospel has much in common with Christian nationalism. And you can see.
- [16:49]
Heath Druzen
Sorry, would you mind explaining just a little bit for listeners? Because a lot of our listeners probably don't know the prosperity gospel in a sentence.
- [16:55]
Reverend Angela Denker
You know, I really heard at churches, if you give to the church, you will get a new brand new car, if that's what you want. So it's really this very moneyed idea of what the gospel has in store for you, and that the rewards of the gospel are explicitly financial. And so we can see that all across the United States. I spent time with Paula White, who's been a close advisor to former President Trump, and she is a big proponent of this, this message and so what has happened, and what I've seen in Christian nationalism in conservative American circles is that it's brought together what used to be more disparate strains of conservative, you know, Southern Baptist theology and sort of this God and country type of idea of Christianity and this idea of the prosperity gospel. And that really speaks to me of a theology of glory. It really reminds me of, you know, when Martin Luther was first speaking out against indulgences in the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church was promising folks that if they gave money, indulgences to the church, that they would go to heaven and that they would receive all kinds of earthly rewards. So what the Theology of the Cross does is it speaks much to what Ben was talking about, that the Theology of the Cross reminds us that as Christians, we are called to follow a crucified Savior. And so if we look at the long track of Christian leaders throughout history, they weren't wealthy, they weren't powerful, they weren't kings, they weren't presidents, necessarily. Instead, like Martin Luther King Jr. They were assassinated. Instead, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, they were killed in Nazi concentration camps. Like the Apostle Paul, they were beheaded. And so American Christians, we really have to look at that legacy of the theology of the Cross.
- [18:45]
Heath Druzen
And I want to stick with you, Angela, for this next question. Cause you've written a lot and talked a lot about white supremacy in the Christian nationalist movement. And a term came up before, which we'll talk about right now, kinism, which is the idea that different. Different races should sort of stick together. It's a segregationist idea. Christian nationalists I've spoken to throughout this year, they say they reject white supremacy, though many have novel ideas about slavery and the Civil War. That seems to come up a lot. But how do you see white supremacy's role in Christian nationalism?
- [19:24]
Reverend Angela Denker
Well, this is, again, a place where I first myself had to look back at the original version of, say, Christians, which came out in 2019. And my big talking point from that book when I would go and speak to church groups is I would tell folks, you know, Jesus is not American. And everyone would kind of look at each other and go, oh, shoot. Yeah, I guess we kind of have been thinking that. But in the intervening years between 2019 and 2022, when I wrote the new version of Red State Christians, we went through Covid. And also here in Minneapolis, just six miles from my home, where I'm speaking to you today, we saw the murder of George Floyd. What I came to see is that it's even more important to Remember that Jesus is not white. And this idea that the whiteness of Jesus is really inseparable from the movement of Christian nationalism. And so it was really important for me to go back in this new version of the book and to speak more explicitly about white racism, something that I was maybe a little hesitant to do the first time around, because, you know, I don't think that there is a whole lot of value in, you know, Christians just pointing the finger at each other and telling someone else that they're racist. I think it really has to start with a personal journey and look at your own experiences. And that's certainly something that I had to do as well. But really, you cannot separate this movement from the theology of glory around white Christians in this country. And that's why so many people in this movement, they want to go back to the 1950s. They want to go back to the 1950s, not only because it was a time when women had a lot less agency and freedoms and rights, but also, this is before the Civil Rights Act. This was before the end of segregation. It was before the Civil Rights movement. Even though they'll never say it explicitly, this movement is really looking to limit the rights of anyone who is not a white male Christian.
- [21:15]
Heath Druzen
And, Owen, I want to hear from you, too, because you mentioned Kinism, and I've seen the online debates that you've been involved in where you've been very critical of some folks on the Christian nationalism side who have either supported Kinism or have said things that a lot of people have taken to mean that. So can you talk a little bit about that and why that's become such a big issue for you?
- [21:41]
Dr. Owen Stran
Yeah. So, fundamentally, I think you have to understand that there are basically opposite but parallel movements working today in American public life and Western life. You've got Wokeness, on the one hand, which, for example, teaches boys that their boyish nature is toxic. It teaches white people that being white is effectively making them a racist person. It teaches people that there is this terrible power structure in society that capitalism foments at all times. We could go on at length, but Wokeness is a real social problem, and it has actually fomented the rise of Christian nationalism, because in my reading of this system, Wokeness has targeted white people, for example. I have that in air quotes because I don't actually believe in the concept of race in biblical terms. We're one human race. But Wokeness has said to white people that they're effectively a white supremacist. And that is not true. That is not biblical. That's not just, that's unjust. And what that has done, sadly on the right is it has driven, I think, a good number of young men into the arms of genuine white supremacists. Kinism means that you have a moral duty to perpetuate your ethnicity or your tribe. And that is true at the marital level and that is true at the national level. And that is what has happened in some Christian circles. Not all Christian nationalists are kinists or genuine white supremacists. I think probably many of them are not, but some of them are. I have engaged one figure, Stephen Wolf, for example, who wrote the book the Case for Christian Nationalism. I don't know where Wolf is exactly, but in his work, for example, he says that cultural groups have a collective duty to marry and be separated unto themselves. At another point on Twitter, before it became X, Woolf said that it was relatively sinful to marry a cross, your race or your ethnicity. And so that is totally unbiblical. Whether you say you're a kynast or not. If you play kinist games, you win kinist prizes.
- [23:36]
Heath Druzen
And I will say this is not to dispute the characterization of the book. I've read the book as well from Stephen Wolf, but I know he has somewhat walked back some of the kinism part since then, although I don't think he took back anything in his book.
- [23:53]
Dr. Owen Stran
And that's the key. Heath, you're right about his Twitter post. He offered some kind of qualification about it, and I take it as far as it comes. The problem is that his book on Christian nationalism, which was published with Canon Press, has all sorts of statements that are at the very least consonant with a kinist framework.
- [24:13]
Heath Druzen
Right. And Canon Press, for listeners who've been here all season, will know that name because it's the Christchurch publishing arm. And Christchurch has been pretty obviously a pretty big player in the Christian nationalism movement and in, in publishing books on the subject. And I'm actually, Owen, I'm going to stick with you here because I'm curious, especially as somebody who is on the right and criticizing Christian nationalism from the right, I'm curious how you think Christian nationalism impacts the broader conservative Christian community that you're a part of and how it impacts the image of conservative Christians in America.
- [25:02]
Dr. Owen Stran
Well, again, what has happened in conservative evangelical circles in the last 10 to 15 years is that evangelical politics really did centerize or leftize, if you will. There's a specific form of political engagement that a lot of traction because of the well known Pastor Tim Keller. Tim Keller did a lot of good work. But he promoted in political terms, a framework, a model called neither left nor right. So this is consonant with critical theory and its claims. And so Keller argued that the church is always in this middle position, and pastors and churches should basically be apolitical in every degree. And I don't think Keller necessarily meant for really bad things to happen from that philosophy. But here's the deal. A lot of people are reactionary. We're naturally reactionary creatures. All of us are. And so what that system did, in my reading, my humble reading, is it caused a lot of people who were very frustrated with unjust lockdown policies. For example, the shackling of the church woke ideas that are taking over America. And a lot of, in particular, younger folks in the conservative evangelical world said, no one's speaking up for me. Apologies for the noise here. No one's speaking up for me. No one's defending biblical truth. We're being put under a body of lies. We're being told that we have to buy into, for example, transgender identity. And we don't believe in that from the scripture because there isn't that category in the scripture. And a lot of pastors and public leaders in the Christian church just aren't such saying anything. Well, guess what? A bunch of voices in the Christian nationalist camp did speak boldly, did offer guidance, did challenge conventional wisdom, and that has led to really a migration, I think, of folks from a more conservative, evangelical, traditional paradigm toward the Christian nationalist camp. A few years ago, I gave a message called Christianity and Wokeness. And then about a year ago, I gave a message called Christianity and Kinism, because we've got threats coming from all sides.
- [27:06]
Heath Druzen
Before I move on to the next question, does anybody else want to jump in on that?
- [27:11]
Reverend Angela Denker
I don't think that labels are particularly helpful, but I think it becomes convenient to sort of blame wokeism and look to the other side instead of looking what is happening within conservative Christianity that has made it such a fertile ground for nationalist recruitment and for violent groups, neo Nazis, sometimes recovery recruitment. You know, I think of something like the abuse crisis, the clergy abuse crisis. You know, talking about a book published by Canon Press. That area has been a hotbed of abuse written about extensively by many folks, but especially Sarah Stancorb in her book Disobedient Women. And so I think that it's really important, you know, Jesus says to take the log out of your own eye before removing this back from someone else. For me, as a. As a mainline pastor, I really want to look at my own community as a Minnesotan. I want to look at my, my own community. Where are the places where we have been complicit. And so I think, I wish sometimes that there was a little bit more reflection from conservatives on what is it within our own movement. I know that is happening in some places, but you just hear so much immediate to go to. However wokeism is fomenting this and I don't always think that that is real helpful.
- [28:24]
Dr. Owen Stran
Yeah, the reflection. Can I jump in? Is that okay?
- [28:26]
Heath Druzen
Yeah, absolutely.
- [28:28]
Dr. Owen Stran
The reflection has to go both ways though, because if you teach white people that their whiteness is inherently bad, if you teach them that there's something wrong with them, that they are innately participating in a system of white supremacy, systemic racism at every turn, they can't help it. They're committing microaggressions all through the livelong day. What that ideology, what that targeting has done in America is it has poisoned the well and it has frankly driven a lot of young people into the arms of genuine white supremacists because they sell a vision. I see this on Twitter, Andrew Torba and others. They sell a vision where your white identity has been problematized as it has genuinely. Well, we're gonna teach you that this is an article of pride. This is something to love and own. And let's keep perpetuating whiteness in Anglo Saxon culture. And now someone like me who's been called a white supremacist is trying to unwind that.
- [29:26]
Heath Druzen
And just for listeners who might not know, Andrew Torba, he runs the social media site Gab, which has become sort of a magnet for alt right folks. And he himself has written a lot of anti semitic and other bigoted posts.
- [29:44]
Support for NPR and the following message come from Edward Jones. What is rich? Maybe it's less about reaching a magic number and more about discovering the magic in life. Edward Jones Financial advisors are people you can count on for financial strategies that help support a life you love. Edward Jones Member SIPC this message comes.
- [30:07]
N/A
From Whole Foods Market. It's Jumpstart January at Whole Foods Market. Find sales on supplements, no antibiotics ever, grass fed ground beef, sustainable wild caught sockeye salmon and more. Feel good favorites like their prepared foods. Rotisserie chicken, a great choice for busy weeknights. And with Whole Foods Market's strict sourcing standards, you can feel good about what you're buying. Boost your wellness routine with Jumpstart January savings at Whole Foods Market. Terms apply. This message comes from MIDI Health. Women in midlife face a healthcare desert, but MIDI is here to fill the Gap, offering expert care for perimenopause and menopause covered by insurance. Hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, weight gain, and moodiness don't have to be accepted as just another part of aging. MIDI clinicians understand how these symptoms can connect to menopause and prescribe a wide range of solutions. Book your visit today@join midi.com that's join midi.com.
- [31:04]
Heath Druzen
I know we could talk about this. We could do a whole panel on this, and I think it would be really interesting. But I am going to jump ahead to the final question. We talked a lot about Christian nationalism, about, you know, what the effects have been. So what I'd like to hear from everybody, starting with Ben, is what Christians who oppose Christian nationalism should be doing about it.
- [31:30]
Dr. Owen Stran
So my starting point is always pastoral because I spent over, you know, 20 years in ministry, and that's really the front lines of where a lot of these conversations happen. You know, people will come in to the sanctuary Sunday after Sunday, really wrestling with what they've seen on the news, what they've had conversations with at work. You know, and that's really where it can get really messy, but also really beautiful, and trying to cultivate genuine dialogue and kind of turn down the volume on some of the noise and get really centered with understanding first and foremost that each person that you encounter is created in God's image. And remembering that about yourself is the first place to remember that about the person that you're talking to as well. And that we're not going to jump on social media and solve all of the messy categories with one post or one news article and say, you know, this solves everything. The big problems start with small steps in personal conversations with people. And so what I've been really trying to encourage one another in my work as a pastor is that we all are reactionary. I do really agree with that. And we can kind of come with our own narratives. And when we're not conscious of the narratives that we have, we can project that on the other person, especially those that we don't agree with fundamentally. Right. And so it really starts with listening to each other. Well, and that can be really, really hard when people use language that have been weaponized by people in power to divide one another. Right. But to get past the words that people are saying, to really genuinely love your neighbor as yourself, that is really the hard work of the gospel of Jesus. And so I've really been trying to understand the history of Idaho, where I was born and raised, and understand the things that have been done to people through the abuse of religious and political power, just in my own context, and really trying to faithfully pursue Christ in this context. But having people be aware of the reality that they live in, I think gives them a better filter and lenses, because we all have our lenses that we view the world through. And understanding each other starts with understanding the lenses that we define and interpret the world, even scripture. And so I think as one who is really prone to latching onto conspiracy, conspiracy theories to define and make sense of my current moment, the role of the pastor is numerous. In trying to gain a better historical context, gain a better perspective of where we are within the history of Christianity in order to walk into our public life with a bit more grounding in the reality of the crucified Jesus, where we find our truest sense of purpose and self.
- [34:43]
Reverend Angela Denker
You know, I think there's something really, really empowering in learning our own history, the history of the place where we're from and our own family history. Even in my growth and understanding of the ways in which white Christians have been complicit in mistreatment of religious minorities, racial minorities, sexual minorities in this country, I'm also proud of my family's heritage. I'm proud of the places where I've come from. And I think it's been empowering to see, okay, this is what has happened in the past. These are things that we can learn from and grow from. I'm certainly proud of the ways in which Lutheranism has historically stood up against the alignment of empire and Christianity, has stood for education, has stood for folks really being able to read the Bible in their own languages. And there's also things that I want to do differently. Certainly Martin Luther, near the end of his life, was a raging anti Semite, and his writings enabled much anti Semitism throughout Europe and even in 1940s, Nazi Germany. So I agree. I think that education is empowering. And I also think that the local church. I still believe in the local church. I've passed, pastored many local churches, and I see people wanting to learn. And what I often do when I speak to church groups about Christian nationalism is I want to just lower the temperature immediately. And instead, this is just an opportunity to learn and to understand, to learn about ourselves, to learn about our faith, and to find ways to maybe do things in a more loving way in the future. And I also think repentance is such a huge part of Christian tradition. And repentance, too, is empowering because repentance can bring us into a place where we can forgive ourselves and forgive one another and receive this great gift of forgiveness. So I'm always encouraging my own church tradition to engage in those acts of repentance, because repentance is often that death which enables us to move forward into new life and into a place of resurrection. And so ultimately, I'm always hopeful, even if I feel like sometimes we're gathering around the foot of the cross again and again and again.
- [37:04]
Heath Druzen
And Owen, I'm going to give you the last word on this one.
- [37:08]
Dr. Owen Stran
Yeah. My concern, as I've tried to articulate throughout this podcast, is that Americans do work hard to understand one another and not demonize one another. I think that's become very common. I think a panel like this is very helpful. We would clearly have consequential disagreements. But I see something happening along the lines of Christian nationalism and also happening with regard to boys and men, and it's been touched on. But fundamentally, the aggressive nature of boys, innately given them by God, means that they do have greater volatility and means that there will be real sins perpetrated against others by young men as they grow up. And they have that strength, on average, 50 to 60% more upper body strength than women, 2000% more testosterone than women. That's not a negative reality, guy or girl. That's just God's wiring of a boy and a man. But the solution there is not to demonize boys or men. The solution is not to call them toxic. The solution is actually to do something much harder. It's to love boys and men. It's to put an arm around them, not to punch them in the face and call them, you know, innately wicked. It's to help them. It's to train them in the gospel and help them understand that they are depraved by nature. But there's this gospel of divine grace that will save them and change them and transform them. We need to do the harder work of not just fighting with those we disagree with, but actually trying to pull push into the world as Jesus did himself, and disciple people. And to those young men in particular, young women as well, who are drawn to the wilder edge of Christian nationalism, I'll oppose them. I'll take a convictional stand. But what I need to do, even more than that is seek to reach out to them and say, do you feel demonized? Do you feel targeted? You have been, probably. But this is not the way forward. The way forward forward is not to radicalize. The way forward is not to try to preserve your whiteness or something like this, that's a mistake. On the opposite side of wokeness. The way forward is to trust Christ and to know your identity in Christ and then to live out of the fullness of your Christian identity. And that's what I think we need a lot more of today, by God's grace.
- [39:25]
Heath Druzen
Well, on that note, I want to thank all of you. Reverend Ben Kramer, Dr. Owen Stran, and Reverend Angela Denker. Thanks so much for this conversation. I really appreciate your time. I think it's been a great conversation and yeah, some, some interesting different perspectives coming at the same issue. So thank you very much and we'll wrap it up.
- [40:05]
Reverend Ben Kramer
Extremely American was created by me, Heath Druzen. This season was written and reported by me and James Dawson. Story editing by Morgan Springer, mixing and sound engineering by James Dawson, fact checking by Naomi Barr. Additional reporting and special thanks to Mary Ellen Pitney, who was a big help early on and and throughout the project. Shout out to Madeline Beck, Sasha Woodruff and Rachel Cohen, who lent us their ears while we were writing this season. Music from Artlist Boise State Public Radio is our partner for this podcast. With distribution by the NPR Network. This podcast is made possible through a grant from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. If you're enjoying this season, check out Season one of Extremely American. It's an inside look at armed militias and how they're influencing mainstream politics. Thanks for listening.
- [41:03]
Heath Druzen
This message comes from adp. Whether it's a last minute policy change or adding a new company holiday, anything can change the world of work. From HR to payroll, ADP helps businesses take on the next anything. ADP always designing for people.
- [41:21]
N/A
Support for this podcast and the following message come from Squarespace. Measure your end to end online performance with powerful website and seller analytics. Get insights, track sales metrics and more. Go to squarespace.com NPR for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.