BONUS Onward Christian Soldiers: When Dinosaurs Walked With People

Summary

Summary of "Extremely American" Episode: BONUS Onward Christian Soldiers: When Dinosaurs Walked With People

Release Date: August 14, 2024

In this compelling bonus episode of NPR’s "Extremely American," hosts Heath Druzen and James Dawson delve deep into the intricate relationship between Christian nationalism and young Earth creationism. Titled "When Dinosaurs Walked With People," the episode explores how the movement seeks to undermine American democracy by promoting a theocratic vision grounded in literal biblical interpretations, particularly concerning the existence of dinosaurs alongside humans.

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1. Introduction to the Creation Museum

Heath Druzen and James Dawson attend the Fight, Laugh, Feast conference in Kentucky, which includes a visit to the Creation Museum in Petersburg, Kentucky. Heath introduces the museum as a central hub for young Earth creationism—a belief system asserting that God created the Earth in six days roughly 6,000 years ago, directly contradicting mainstream scientific consensus.

Notable Quote:

Ken Ham: "The biblical worldview tells us that God created a perfect world wrecked by man's sin." [00:51]

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2. Exhibits Depicting Dinosaurs and Humans Together

Upon entering the Creation Museum, the hosts navigate through exhibits that portray humans and dinosaurs coexisting. Animatronic dinosaurs, such as velociraptors and brontosauruses, are displayed alongside human figures, challenging scientific evidence that separates the timelines of dinosaurs and Homo sapiens by millions of years.

Notable Observations:

• Garden of Eden Exhibit: Features models of Adam and Eve with a red snake, emphasizing the literal interpretation of Genesis.
• Dinosaur Displays: Heath notes the incongruity of dinosaurs existing alongside humans, which conflicts with established scientific timelines.

Heath Druzen: "Dinosaurs and humans... that doesn't really square with science." [06:00]

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3. The Clash Between Creationism and Science

The episode highlights a critical debate between Ken Ham, founder of the Creation Museum, and Francis Collins, a renowned geneticist and former director of the National Institutes of Health.

Francis Collins:

"You can't just wish away the evidence that the universe is 13.8 billion years old and that the earth is about four and a half billion." [12:16]

Collins defends the extensive scientific evidence supporting an ancient Earth and evolutionary biology, emphasizing that rejecting this evidence hampers scientific progress and understanding.

Heath Druzen contrasts this with the creationist narrative, which claims dinosaurs were created alongside humans and survived the Great Flood only to eventually become extinct due to climate change and inability to adapt.

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4. Influence of Christian Nationalism on American Democracy

The discussion extends to the broader implications of embedding creationist beliefs into public policy. Peter Enns, a biblical studies professor, warns that such integration threatens scientific integrity and democratic principles.

Peter Enns:

"There's no room for scientific curiosity. The only purpose of science is to prove the Bible is right." [24:07]

He argues that this ideology could lead to the erosion of evidence-based governance, replacing it with dogmatic policies derived from literal biblical interpretations.

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5. Christian Nationalists’ Vision for America

Doug Wilson, a leader in the Christian nationalist movement, articulates the desire to establish a theocracy based on literal readings of Genesis. At the conference hosted at the Ark Encounter, Doug emphasizes the importance of believing in a young Earth as foundational to maintaining moral and societal order.

Doug Wilson:

"Are you a young earth creationist?... I would describe myself as a blamo creationist." [20:29]

He warns that without such beliefs, society may succumb to moral decay, citing severe ethical declines as a consequence of abandoning biblical principles.

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6. Potential Consequences for Scientific Research and Public Policy

Heath emphasizes how rejecting scientific consensus, such as evolution and an ancient Earth, could impede crucial research and technological advancements. For instance, understanding the evolutionary basis of diseases like sickle cell anemia has led to groundbreaking treatments. Without such frameworks, medical and scientific progress could stagnate.

Francis Collins:

"Anytime government takes on a view about science that's not evidence based, I'm going to be really worried." [22:23]

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7. The Broader Threat to Democracy

Peter Enns escalates the discussion by warning that a Christian nation grounded solely in biblical literalism could resemble theocratic regimes from history, where dissent is suppressed, and alternative beliefs are persecuted.

Peter Enns:

"If you have a Christian nation... you're only one step away from doing some of the things that Bible stories do, which is killing other people and taking their land, stoning people who are different." [26:19]

He underscores the urgent need to resist the encroachment of Christian nationalist ideologies to preserve democratic values and pluralism in the United States.

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8. Call to Action and Future Implications

The episode concludes with a stark reminder of the ongoing ideological battle between secular and Christian nationalist forces. Heath urges listeners to remain vigilant and actively engage in local and national politics to safeguard the secular foundations of American democracy.

Heath Druzen:

"Depending on how you want your community and ultimately your country to look, now's the time to say it out loud." [27:36]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ken Ham: "The biblical worldview tells us that God created a perfect world wrecked by man's sin." [00:51]
• Francis Collins: "You can't just wish away the evidence that the universe is 13.8 billion years old and that the earth is about four and a half billion." [12:16]
• Doug Wilson: "Are you a young earth creationist?... I would describe myself as a blamo creationist." [20:29]
• Peter Enns: "There's no room for scientific curiosity. The only purpose of science is to prove the Bible is right." [24:07]
• Peter Enns: "If you have a Christian nation... you're only one step away from doing some of the things that Bible stories do." [26:19]

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Conclusion

In "When Dinosaurs Walked With People," Heath Druzen and James Dawson present a thorough examination of how Christian nationalism, underpinned by young Earth creationism, poses a significant threat to scientific integrity and democratic institutions in America. Through insightful interviews and on-site explorations, the episode underscores the urgent need to address and counteract these ideologies to maintain a society grounded in evidence-based reasoning and pluralistic values.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Peter Enns]

You don't have to look at your music for this by the way ever and day, forever and day, the mercies of the Lord endure.

[Heath Druzen]

For we're taking you back to Fight, Laugh, Feast, that Christian nationalist conference in Kentucky. When Jimmy and I bought our tickets for the conference, there was a pass included in the package. The pass was to something called the Creation Museum. So we decided to drive to the museum in Petersburg, Kentucky and we're taking you with us.

[Ken Ham]

The biblical worldview tells us that God created a perfect world wrecked by man's sin.

[Heath Druzen]

This much we knew ahead of time. The museum is all about the creation story from the Bible, the story of Adam and Eve and how God created the earth. And this particular part of the Bible is sort of the beating heart of a fundamentalist belief system. It's also foundational to the Christian nationalist movement. Attention museum guests. Come learn biblical truths and science in.

[Doug Wilson]

Our 1:00 Discover program. A flood of forensic evidence located on.

[Heath Druzen]

The lower level in Discovery hall at the Creation Museum. You can start from the beginning, at least the beginning of life on earth according to the Bible. Okay, now we are walking into the Garden of Eden, I believe. Smells like pizza.

[Francis Collins]

In the Garden of Eden, it smells like pizza now.

[Heath Druzen]

I'm kind of hungry. Inside is this massive recreation of the Garden of Eden. You're surrounded by a lush tropical forest. There are models of animals, a mishmash of beasts from all over the world. A bear here, a chimpanzee there, even a penguin amidst the ferns. We get a biblical reading of what we're seeing from loudspeakers at the exhibit.

[Biblical Narrator]

The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had created. And the Lord God brought every beast of the field and every bird of the air to Adam.

[Heath Druzen]

That's Genesis 2:8 and 2:19. For those keeping score at home, Jimmy and I keep walking. And there, chest deep in a pond, are two humans models of Adam and Eve, naked, but tastefully obscured by carefully arranged lily pads. Above them in a tree is a sinister looking red snake. You probably know the basic outlines of the story. The serpent, the apple. For anyone who doesn't, you can hear that biblical reading over the loudspeakers too. Here's Genesis 2, 16, 17.

[Biblical Narrator]

Behold the Lord God commandeth the man saying, of every tree of the garden, you may freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it. For in the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die.

[Heath Druzen]

Spoiler alert. They eat the apple from the Tree of Knowledge, are expelled from the Garden of Eden, and now we're all mortal. The idea that this was the literal beginning, that's called Young Earth Creationism. Young Earth creationists believe God created the Earth and the cosmos in six days. On the sixth day, he created the first man, Adam, and placed him in the Garden of Eden. Then he created Eve out of Adam's rib. And key to this belief is the idea that it all happened 6,000 years ago. That's in stark contrast to the scientific understanding that the Earth is roughly four and a half billion years old. This isn't exactly a fringe belief. A Gallup poll from 2019 found that 40% of Americans have creationist views. 40%. Though, to be clear, many of those aren't Christian nationalists. So the Garden of Eden is supposed to be capturing a moment 6,000 years ago. But as we were walking through it, I noticed something surprising. A dinosaur. That's an animatronic velociraptor. And according to the museum brochure, there were plenty more dinosaurs to be seen. Okay, you want to go to upper level? Yeah, I want to learn about dinosaurs. Wow. So I'm under a brontosaurus. It's a robotic brontosaurus chewing its cud. And then we have an exhibit of humans and dinosaurs side by side. So we've got a. Looks like a little girl and a squirrel next to what appear to be a couple velociraptors. Okay, dinosaurs and humans. That doesn't really square with science. Scientists say dinosaurs went extinct roughly 65 million years before Homo sapiens first appeared. So I'm like, wait, what are dinosaurs doing here? I knew many creationists weren't into Darwin or traditional ideas about geology, but where did T. Rex fit into all of this? So I went in search of answers. Which is all to say, this episode is about dinosaurs and, hey, dinosaurs are cool. But it's also about what it could mean for you if we had a government that rejects mainstream science. I'm Heath Druzen, and this is extremely American. Onward Christian Soldiers, a story about a small town, a big church, and the people who want to make America a Christian nation. Bonus episode, when Dinosaurs Walked with people.

[Narrator]

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[Ken Ham]

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[Heath Druzen]

I'm not Christian, but I was raised Jewish, so I'm not unfamiliar with the Bible. Like we share the same book, the original, not the sequel. The Jewish Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament. And nowhere in Hebrew school had I ever run into dinosaurs. But at this museum dedicated to Old Testament stories, I could barely turn a corner without running into a pterodactyl or triceratops. It kind of makes sense though. Dinosaurs are the biggest hole in the plot of Young Earth creationism. The science is very inconvenient for a literal interpretation of the Bible. Here's what the science says. Dinosaurs first started roaming the Earth between 200 and 250 million years ago, and they ruled the land way longer than humans have even existed. The long span of dinosaurs reign over the Earth meant there was a lot of time to evolve. Dinosaurs grew larger over time into the megafauna we know from books and movies and more and more types of dinosaurs emerged. Until one day, 66 million years ago when a giant asteroid slammed into the Yucatan Peninsula, killing off nearly all the dinosaurs. Even then, some flying dinosaurs soldiered on. Eventually they evolved into the birds we see today. Scientists know all this through the fossil record, bones and imprints in the layers of the earth. The fossil history of dinosaurs is a sprawling, epic kind of a geological war and peace. The Bible's entire history of the Earth is more like a novella, just 6,000 years. So yeah, the scientific understanding and the biblical understanding are completely at odds, at least for many people, including Ken Ham. Ken Ham does not buy the idea of millions of years. He's an Aussie American, a fundamentalist entrepreneur, and the founder of the Creation Museum Jimmy and I are visiting in Kentucky.

[Francis Collins]

Actually, the idea of millions of years came out of a belief that the layers were laid down over millions of years slowly. They weren't there to see the layers being laid down. They weren't there to measure how they were being laid down.

[Heath Druzen]

Basically, Ken's saying, how would scientists know how long ago dinosaurs lived? They weren't there.

[Francis Collins]

I'm going to say they were laid down quickly during the flood of Noah's day a few thousand years ago. But neither of us were there to see that. So both of us have beliefs. My belief is based on the Bible's account of creation, then the flood, and so on. Whereas if someone has a belief that the universe, the earth, has been in existence for millions of years, and that determines how they look at those sorts.

[Heath Druzen]

Of layers, For Ken, the Bible is the word of God, and that's all you should need. If you read literally the Bible says there's no possibility dinosaurs lived and died millions of years before humans existed, because nothing existed yet.

[Francis Collins]

So those two are in total conflict.

[Heath Druzen]

You might notice that Ken is ready with answers to these big questions. He spent a career arguing on behalf of creationism. Among his many sparring partners is Francis Collins. Collins is one of the many Christians who don't agree with Ken. He's also one of the world's leading scientists.

[Francis Collins]

You can't just wish away the evidence that the universe is 13.8 billion years old and that the earth is about four and a half billion. It is overwhelmingly compelling from multiple directions. I'm sorry, Ken. It is.

[Heath Druzen]

Francis is the former director of the National Institutes of Health. He also founded the group BioLogos, a group that talks about how science can enhance faith.

[Francis Collins]

I'm a fan of that metaphor that was put forward quite some time ago by Francis Bacon, that God gave us two books, the Book of God's Words, which is the Bible, and the Book of God's Works, which is nature. And science allows us to explore that second book and in the process, to be an even greater awe of creation that we've been given.

[Heath Druzen]

All of this really bugs Ken Ham.

[Francis Collins]

I would say that Francis Collins is totally inconsistent when it comes to his approach to scripture, and that what he's really doing is saying man's view of origins is correct, God's view is wrong, and therefore we need to Reinterpret God's word, which undermines the authority of the Bible. Which is why a lot of people say, how can you trust the Bible? Whereas I'm saying, no, God's revelation is true. It's man's views about the past that are wrong.

[Heath Druzen]

So back to the problem of fitting prehistoric fossils into a 6,000 year old world. That's where the Bible comes in. But dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the Bible. The word dinosaur wasn't coined until nearly 3,000 years later. Ken and other young Earth creationists have an explanation for this. Dragons. They're mentioned in the Bible more than 20 times, depending on the translation. And according to Ken, the word dragon could have meant dinosaurs when the Bible was written. Another dinosaur problem. For creationists like Ken, the fossil record is also a record of evolution. But if you believe God created all the animals at once and it was only 6,000 years ago, evolution doesn't work. Darwin is out. It also means, according to a literal reading of the Bible, that humans did not evolve from apes. People and apes were created by God on the same day. Here's how a display at the museum explains it.

[Ken Ham]

Evolutionists interpret the physical similarities between apes and humans as evidence that we evolved on the same branch of the evolutionary tree. Meanwhile, creationists understand the many differences to be evidence that we belong on entirely separate, separate trees. But the greatest distinction between apes and humans is that men and women are made in the image of God and were created by God to rule over the ape kind and all other animals.

[Heath Druzen]

At this point in our creation museum tour, I've pieced together a lot of the creationist history of dinosaurs. They were created alongside man on the sixth day, roamed the Garden of Eden alongside Adam and Eve, and even hitched a ride on Noah's Ark. One big question about their history remained. Dinosaurs clearly aren't around anymore. So what happened to them? How do creationists explain why dinosaurs exist only in fossils today? Scientists think that a big asteroid millions of years ago is to blame. But what did creationists think caused them to go extinct? For that answer, Jimmy and I drove down the interstate back to the conference to take a walk through something called the ARC Encounter. That's coming up after the break.

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[Heath Druzen]

Ken Ham, the Aussie American guy, didn't just start the Creation Museum, he started the Ark Encounter too. The exhibit is inside a six story wooden replica of Noah's Ark. It towers over you as you enter the belly of the boat. Entering the ark inside, you're surrounded by the sounds of the storm from the Bible story of the Great Flood. The flood Noah built the ark for. There are tree sized support beams, huge clay jars, and a series of rooms where humans on board would have slept, ate and even made metal tools. Remember, Noah saved at least a pair of every living thing on Earth. And as Jimmy and I walk around, we stumble upon some animal cages. Imagine what this must have smelled like.

[Doug Wilson]

I'd rather not.

[Heath Druzen]

And eventually we run into much larger cages with more models of dinosaurs. We have some dimetrodons here, the dinosaur you've probably seen with a big sail on its back. So creationists believe dinosaurs were on the ark. They say they were juveniles and not yet fully grown to account for the space issue. But then what happened to them? According to the Ark Encounter exhibit, it was actually climate change. It says after the Great Flood, the world was a different climate with different plants, and dinosaurs in particular struggled. There might have been some hunting too, but basically they couldn't adapt and they eventually died out. Here's why I'm talking about dinosaurs on a podcast about people who want to turn America into into a theocracy. As I've said, creationism is a core belief of Christian nationalists. It's certainly important to Christchurch leader Doug Wilson and his allies. It's part of why they had their conference at the Ark encounter in October, the one Jimmy and I attended, where Christian nationalists traded notes on their plans for America. They even titled it the Politics of the Six Days of Creation. At that gathering, Doug devoted one of his two talks to creationism.

[Doug Wilson]

Are you a young earth creationist? People would ask me. I would describe myself as a blamo creationist. How did the cosmos get here? God spoke. And blammo. And not too far in the distant past either.

[Heath Druzen]

Doug says that because we all can't agree on blammo and most people insist on an earth that's billions of years old, society is unraveling.

[Doug Wilson]

If there is no God, anything goes.

[Heath Druzen]

Injustice, rape, child molestation. Doug says if you do not believe in Genesis, the creation story, you might be convinced just about anything is acceptable. And it was in Doug's talk on creationism, where he laid out his vision for American theocracy.

[Doug Wilson]

I trust my bona fides as a Christian nationalist. There are in order. I want our society to confess together that Jesus rose from the dead. That's what I want.

[Heath Druzen]

So creationism is foundational for plenty of Christian nationalist ideology, and it's certainly at odds with mainstream research. But if Christian nationalists get control, or not even that, they just get more influence in government. These literal biblical ideas could affect your life. To understand why a rejection of scientific consensus could impact you, it's helpful to understand how the scientific community operates. The concept that the Earth is billions of years old underpins a lot of scientific research. It helps us understand how the Earth and the cosmos work. And human evolution, that's a basic building block of biology. Francis Collins, the former director of the nih, says rejecting those things could have dire consequences.

[Francis Collins]

Anytime government takes on a view about science that's not evidence based, I'm going to be really worried. And if it's young Earth creationism, which is not science based, then I'm really worried.

[Heath Druzen]

Francis says without official acceptance of human evolution, important scientific research could be in trouble. So to understand that, let's take one example and follow it. Sickle cell disease. It's directly connected to evolution. Scientists figured out that the gene that causes sickle cell disease is an evolutionary adaptation to malaria. Essentially, the gene mutation that protects against malaria can cause sickle cell disease. That understanding then influenced further research. And recently, scientists figured out how to edit the faulty gene and cure sickle cell disease. It has the potential to save millions of lives, though it's currently cost prohibitive.

[Francis Collins]

And this is now a curable disease. So we understand evolution's role and we've figured out how to get around it. In this case, to provide a life for people who otherwise were going to be in a very bad place.

[Heath Druzen]

So since many creationists reject evolution, it seems unlikely a government that embraces young earth creationism would pursue research like this. Biblical scholar Peter Enns says a society run by Christian nationalist creationists would quickly take aim at mainstream science.

[Peter Enns]

So there's no room for scientific curiosity. The only purpose of science is to prove the Bible is right. And if your science doesn't prove the Bible is right, then that science is false, it is wrong, it is evil, it has to be eradicated. It certainly won't be funded.

[Heath Druzen]

Peter is a professor of biblical studies at Eastern University in Pennsylvania. He's another Christian who believes the big bang in evolution can coexist with the Bible. Keep in mind, more than half of scientific research in America is funded by the federal government.

[Peter Enns]

I think it would be devastating for science. But if it's publicly funded, why would we fund things that are against the word of God?

[Heath Druzen]

Creationism in public spaces is not theoretical. Proponents of the ideology have made some headway in that department. More than a dozen states have allowed publicly funded schools to teach creationism in recent years. A former senior official at the Trump administration, this guy William Wolf, who's affiliated with the Christian nationalist movement, he recently tweeted how critical it is that Christians believe in a literal six day creation. If Trump wins re election, this guy could be in his administration again. And Peter Enns does not think the threat would end with science. He says there's very little room for compromise with hardline creationists.

[Peter Enns]

There's no debating it. There's no thinking, well, maybe times have changed. We have to think differently about certain kinds of things. There's nothing like that. It's God's word. Everything is true. And our country needs to be led by those principles. And that has me very worried, frankly.

[Heath Druzen]

Peter says that kind of absolutism could lead to much darker outcomes if they ever get political power.

[Peter Enns]

If you have a Christian nation, so called Christian nation, that bases everything on the inerrant, unwavering truth of the Bible, you're only one step away from doing some of the things that Bible stories do, which is killing other people and taking their land, stoning people who are different, who sin.

[Heath Druzen]

That might sound extreme. We started with dinosaurs and made it to forcibly displacing people and summary executions. But in the course of a year of reporting, I've talked to a lot of people who follow Christian nationalism closely, and most of them share Peter's dire assessment that trying to make fundamentalist Christian beliefs official government doctrine would lead to an erosion of democracy. All of them think Americans should take the movement very seriously.

[Peter Enns]

This is not just an abstract problem. This is a very practical problem in terms of really the political future of the United States of America, whether it's going to continue to be a democratic country or one that's just upheld by so called biblical principles.

[Heath Druzen]

What happens next in our democracy is an open question. America is getting less Christian, but Christian nationalists are getting bolder and more ambitious. Will the people who want this country to remain secular be equally bold in their opposition? It's an ideological battle that won't be solved with one national election, not even the big one coming up. It will likely be fought for years at the school board and city council level. Depending on how you want your community and ultimately your country to look, now's the time to say it out loud. Extremely American was created by me, Heath Druzen. This season was written and reported by me and James Dawson, story editing by Morgan Springer, mixing and sound engineering by James Dawson, fact checking by Naomi Barr, additional reporting and special thanks to Mary Ellen Pitney, who was a big help early on and throughout the process. Project Shout out to Madeline Beck, Sasha Woodruff and Rachel Cohen, who lent us their ears while we were writing this season. Music from artlist Boise State Public Radio is our partner for this podcast with distribution by the NPR Network. This podcast is made possible through a grant from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. If you're enjoying this season, check out Season one of Extremely American. It's an inside look at armed militias and how they're influencing mainstream politics. Thanks for listening.

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