Onward Christian Soldiers: Disobedience

Summary

Extremely American: Onward Christian Soldiers – Episode 5: "Disobedience"

Released July 17, 2024 | Host: Heath Druzen and James Dawson | NPR

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Introduction

In Episode 5 of Season 2, titled "Disobedience," Extremely American delves deep into the intricate and often tumultuous world of Christian nationalism, specifically focusing on the Christchurch church's influence. Hosts Heath Druzen and James Dawson explore how the movement seeks to reshape American democracy into a theocracy, stripping away the rights of many Americans in the process. This episode presents a poignant narrative centered around Helen Shores Peters, her battle against the church's patriarchal doctrines, and the broader implications of such ideologies on individual lives and communities.

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Helen Shores Peters: A Journey of Resistance and Redemption

The episode opens with a harrowing account of Helen Shores Peters, who, under immense pressure from her ex-husband Jason Schiebe, finds herself contemplating suicide. [00:18] Heath Druzen sets the stage by highlighting Helen's desperate situation:

Helen Shores Peters [00:56]: "Like, I could just push the gas instead of the brake here and no one would know that I did it on purpose."

Fortunately, Helen does not follow through with these dark thoughts. Her turmoil stems from Jason's insistence that she return an iPhone, a directive rooted in the church's doctrine of headship. Helen recounts how this demand was not just about a phone but a test of her allegiance:

Helen Shores Peters [01:53]: "It was all a test for him to see where my allegiance was. Like, that I would actually go and return the phone."

This incident marks the beginning of Helen's realization that her husband's demands were self-serving, leading her to question the very foundation of her beliefs and her marriage.

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The Doctrine of Headship: Doug and Nancy Wilson's Perspective

To understand the forces at play, the episode examines the church's doctrine of headship, which advocates for a patriarchal structure within marriages and families. Doug Wilson, a prominent figure in Christchurch, passionately defends this ideology. In an interview segment [05:19], Doug asserts:

Doug Wilson [05:19]: "You're talking to a patriarchal Christian, someone who believes everything the Apostle Paul ever taught about headship and submission in marriage. I'm a traditionalist, patriarchal guy..."

Despite his stern stance, Doug acknowledges the gravity of mistreating women:

Doug Wilson [05:19]: "The mistreat of woman is a grievous sin. God hates it. It's a sin every day of the week."

Nancy Wilson, Doug's wife, offers a nuanced view of women's roles within this framework. Although she declined an interview, excerpts from her podcast Femina reveal her steadfast belief in traditional roles:

Nancy Wilson [08:01]: "We're not the main character. In this little house I live in, my father in law is the main character."

She emphasizes the importance of women embracing their roles without seeking dominance:

Nancy Wilson [08:44]: "Don't underestimate the value of your calling. Don't underestimate what God is doing in and through you, in your feminine calling."

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Voices Within the Movement: Christine Cohen's Story

Contrasting Helen's experience, Christine Cohen, another member of Christchurch, exemplifies a woman who has found harmony within the doctrine of headship. Through her interactions, the episode showcases how some women genuinely thrive under these traditional roles. Christine shares her path to balancing personal ambitions with familial duties:

Christine Cohen [12:11]: "And so that was the career she chose. It turns out creative writing gels nicely with the unpredictability of parenting."

She discusses the support she receives from church leadership, particularly from Doug Wilson, who allows her creative pursuits to flourish without compromising her responsibilities as a wife and mother:

Christine Cohen [14:32]: "What is funny is I've had sometimes people send me letters where they've been like, thank you so much for writing about how to escape from the patriarchy... that's not what I meant."

Christine's narrative challenges the critics of headship by illustrating that fulfillment and personal achievement are attainable within this structured framework.

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The Struggle for Autonomy: Divorce and Its Repercussions

Helen's departure from her marriage and the church is fraught with emotional and legal battles. Despite her efforts to salvage her marriage through therapy, the entrenched beliefs and Jason's resistance culminate in divorce—a decision nearly unthinkable within their ideological framework. [17:16]

Helen Shores Peters [17:34]: "Divorce was just so scary and so not an option in my head, which is just silly now that I think about it."

Jason disputes Helen's portrayal of events, particularly her assertion that he coerced her into returning the phone as a test of obedience. The resultant litigation has not only strained their financial and emotional resources but also alienated Helen from her sons, who remain entwined in the church's teachings.

Helen's struggle extends beyond her marriage as she attempts to shield her children from the patriarchal indoctrination of the Christchurch-affiliated Logos school:

Helen Shores Peters [22:00]: "It's about what kind of men she hopes her boys become."

Despite her efforts, pressure mounts, leading Helen to grant her sons' wishes to attend Logos. This concession results in a deep rift with her eldest son, who has since distanced himself from her.

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Breaking Free and Moving Forward

Post-divorce, Helen embarks on a path of self-discovery and healing. She remarried and now lives in Pullman, Washington, working as a nuclear medicine technologist. Reflecting on her transformation, Helen shares:

Helen Shores Peters [25:30]: "I wouldn't change a thing. Who I am today is a completely different person than who I was seven years ago. And I can honestly say that I love myself and I love my life."

However, the scars of her past linger, manifesting as ongoing legal battles and a broken relationship with her oldest son. Helen's message to other women trapped in similar situations is one of hope and resilience:

Helen Shores Peters [25:30]: "The hope for peace can become a reality. And it's a treacherous, long journey and it's not beautiful and it's broken and ragged and it's hard. But I wouldn't change a thing."

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Conclusion: The Enduring Impact of Christian Nationalism

"Disobedience" offers a profound exploration of the personal toll exacted by rigid religious doctrines. Through Helen's story and the contrasting perspectives of Christine and the Wilsons, Extremely American underscores the pervasive influence of Christian nationalism on individual lives and societal structures. The episode not only highlights the struggles of those who dissent but also illuminates the complex dynamics that sustain such movements.

As the episode concludes, listeners are left contemplating the broader implications of imposing theocracy on a diverse populace and the enduring quest for personal autonomy amidst overwhelming odds.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Helen Shores Peters [00:56]: "Like, I could just push the gas instead of the brake here and no one would know that I did it on purpose."

• Helen Shores Peters [01:53]: "It was all a test for him to see where my allegiance was."

• Doug Wilson [05:19]: "The mistreat of woman is a grievous sin. God hates it."

• Nancy Wilson [08:01]: "We're not the main character."

• Christine Cohen [12:11]: "Creative writing gels nicely with the unpredictability of parenting."

• Helen Shores Peters [17:34]: "Divorce was just so scary and so not an option in my head."

• Helen Shores Peters [22:00]: "It's about what kind of men she hopes her boys become."

• Helen Shores Peters [25:30]: "Who I am today is a completely different person than who I was seven years ago."

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Extremely American continues to shed light on the often-unseen facets of American societal movements, providing listeners with in-depth analyses and personal narratives that challenge and inform.

Transcript

[Advertiser]

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[Heath Druzen]

This episode deals with suicide. If you or someone you know needs help, you can reach the National Suicide and Crisis lifeline by calling or texting 988. There's also some spicy language in here. Okay, here we go. When we left Helen Shores Peters, she was contemplating suicide. She had driven through a snowstorm to return an iPhone she says her husband objected to. She was barreling down a steep, windy road.

[Helen Shores Peters]

Like, I could just push the gas instead of the brake here and no one would know that I did it on purpose.

[Heath Druzen]

Fortunately, Helen didn't do it.

[Helen Shores Peters]

But the thought, like, came and I was like, holy shit. Like, what is happening?

[Heath Druzen]

Helen says her ex husband, Jason Schiebe had put her in this dangerous position, telling her to return the phone immediately. She says she listened. The Christchurch commandment to obey your husband was still strong inside her.

[Helen Shores Peters]

So then I got down to Lewiston and I'm going to return the phone and I get a call from him and he was like, you know, I just talked to Sprint and it's financially not going to make any sense at this point for you to return the phone, so why don't you just go ahead and keep it? But, you know, I know you went, you drove all the way down there, so why don't you go to TJ Maxx and just get yourself a little, a little something and then just come back home?

[Heath Druzen]

Now, Helen was enraged because it was a test, right?

[Helen Shores Peters]

It was all a test for him to see where my allegiance was. Like, that I would actually go and return the phone. That was when my eyes were open. That, like, this man doesn't care about me. He cares about being right. And I having that, like, thought that, like, leave my babies was better than being with him was just so fucking hard. It's still hard to admit to.

[Heath Druzen]

Jason disputes a lot of the phone story, especially the part where Helen says he pushed her to return the phone immediately. And I was like, it's all in Lewison. It's time for dinner. Like, I, I don't like, you don't need to do this. The phone's fine either way. Helen says a crack began to form in her belief system it would take a while to officially end the marriage. But after that drive, Helen says she was done putting herself last. She Stopped asking for permission, went out and got a tattoo with how Jason's okay.

[Helen Shores Peters]

I started working out at the gym. I started to, like, take care of myself, you know, like, be a little bit selfish. And that was really good for me.

[Heath Druzen]

And she says she was clear about another thing. She was done with patriarchy, done with blind obedience. Same with headship. Remember, that's the term Christchurch uses for the husband ruling over the house. But there are women who say they are thriving in that situation, what many see as an unequal relationship. And we'll hear from them before rejoining Helen's story as she fights to keep her sons away from patriarchal Christianity. I'm Heath Druzen, and this is extremely Onward Christian Soldiers, a story about a small town, a big church, and. And the people trying to make America a Christian nation. Episode 5 Disobedience.

[Doug Wilson]

Foreign.

[Heath Druzen]

We'Re going to throw around that term headship. Again, it's church jargon. So I want to take a minute to talk about what it is and where it comes from. Headship proponents point to several Bible passages. One is from the New Testament, Ephesians 5:21. It says wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of his wife, just as Christ is the head of the church. He himself, the Savior of the body. Doug Wilson has made a career of explaining why women should be subordinate to men. He wrote a whole book on the matter called Federal Covenant, Headship and the Christian Man. And he and his wife Nancy regularly speak in defense of headship. Here's what Doug told us one day as we were walking around.

[Doug Wilson]

You're talking to a patriarchal Christian, someone who believes everything the Apostle Paul ever taught about headship and submission in marriage. I'm a traditionalist, patriarchal guy, and I can say that the mistreat of woman is a grievous sin. God hates it. It's a sin every day of the week. It's a sin in every culture, and God will judge it at the last day.

[Heath Druzen]

But you do believe that a woman needs to be obedient to her husband, Is that correct? Yes.

[Doug Wilson]

Yes. So when I officiate at a wedding, part of the bride's vows is promising to obey her husband. Yes.

[Heath Druzen]

What does that mean?

[Doug Wilson]

Well, I've been married coming up on 48 years. Okay. And situations where my wife needed to actively, consciously submit to me and obey maybe five times in 48 years.

[Heath Druzen]

What does that look like? Can you give an example?

[Doug Wilson]

Oh, yeah. One of the examples was when we were new parents. And our first baby was changed, fed dry and crying and hurt crib. And Nancy wanted to go get her. And I said, no, let's not. Okay, right. And so. But this is something that Nancy married a man who believed that way, and I married a woman who believed that way already, independently. So men and women who believe the Bible both think that way. So in a traditional ceremony, the bride vows freely to obey her husband.

[Heath Druzen]

That's sort of the sanitized version of headship. The full version includes most women losing their right to vote. And we'll talk lots more about the many people Christian nationalists want to disenfranchise later. Anyway, we don't want to sit here letting dudes tell you all about the joys of female submission. There are, of course, women who live this life and say it works for them. We reached out to Doug's wife, Nancy to get her take. She's a prolific writer in her own right. She declined an interview, but she said a lot publicly. In her podcast Femina, Nancy Wilson tells her listeners about her view of women's role in the family.

[Nancy Wilson]

I was saying that we want to read our story, right, and realize we are the minor character. We're not the main character. In this little house I live in, my father in law is the main character. I mean, he's the main character, of course, in my marriage, my husband's the main character. And yet I absolutely know that this is where I'm supposed to be. I wasn't supposed to be the leading lady.

[Heath Druzen]

All of that, she says, is God's will for women.

[Nancy Wilson]

But if I get my role confused and if I start thinking I'm the main character, then I'm going to be set up to be Mighty Discontent. Like, really, I need a better situation than this.

[Heath Druzen]

Nancy says it's a mistake for women in the church to discount being the, quote, chief cook and bottle washer, as she likes to put it. That role is vital to the success of your home and family.

[Nancy Wilson]

She says, don't underestimate the value of your calling. Don't underestimate what God is doing in and through you, in your feminine calling. Our obedience, our service is a potent force in the hand of God.

[Heath Druzen]

Jimmy spoke with another woman who happily follows her husband's lead.

[Christine Cohen]

Yeah, her name is Christine Cohen and she's also a Christchurch member.

[Doug Wilson]

So in the Bible, it very clearly says that the man is the head of the house, that the wife is in submission under him, that. That he is the one who is leading the household.

[Christine Cohen]

She says she's believed this since she was young, her parents actually started a church heavily influenced by Doug's teachings and practiced headship.

[Doug Wilson]

And I could see that how their marriage worked and was healthy and functioning was a product of what we were being taught.

[Christine Cohen]

There are even more layers to headship. Yes, the wife submits to the husband, but the husband also submits to the church elders and pastor, and all of them then submit to God and Jesus.

[Doug Wilson]

There is hierarchy built into the world, and generally, if you don't have a clear understanding of, like, this guy's calling the shots, then it often devolves into chaos. And that's where I see a lot of times people or women who are in marriages where there isn't any sort of headship, they often feel a little bit unmoored.

[Christine Cohen]

Still, as a teen, she says she did wonder how headship would affect her dream of being a photographer for National Geographic. The job would require traveling for weeks or months at a time across the world.

[Doug Wilson]

And I do remember thinking, obviously, there's a big emphasis on, for a woman being a wife and mother, right? Like, this is. That's a glory and a high calling. And I remember thinking, like, is it going to be hard for me to pursue a career or just other things that I love and am interested in as well as being a wife and mother? Like, is there room in the church for maybe somebody who is single?

[Christine Cohen]

It would take a few years, but Christine would find her answer to this. She met her future husband, Joel, while she was attending New St. Andrews College. That's the Christchurch College in Moscow, Idaho. They got married when she was still a junior. That's when she had a choice to make.

[Doug Wilson]

It wasn't that my entirely my ambitions changed, but I did have this feeling of like, oh, I met Joel and I wanted to get married. And I always knew I also wanted kids. I sort of pivoted because it was around the time that we had our first that I realized, okay, I don't actually really want to be a journalist. What I want to do is write fantasy novels for teens.

[Christine Cohen]

And so that was the career she chose. It turns out creative writing gels nicely with the unpredictability of parenting. Christine could write while the kids napped or during downtime, while when they were old enough to go to school. She fit her writing around what she saw as her primary roles.

[Doug Wilson]

I'm a Christian first. I'm a wife, I'm a mother. Like, these are the things that I wanted to make sure were not being strained or that I wasn't sacrificing those on the altar of my writing. But that's not because it's not important to write. I really wanted to continue to be able to do that.

[Christine Cohen]

This was the balance Christine found that worked for her. Critics of the concept of headship or of traditional marriage roles often point to examples like this as women feeling pressure to shelve their dreams. When do men sacrifice their ambitions? Why can't their careers take a backseat for once? These are fallacies, according to Christine's religious worldview. She says she's never felt oppressed in her marriage.

[Doug Wilson]

That's the thing. Our detractors say the women in Christchurch are not allowed to work outside the home, or they are only wives and mothers, as if that's somehow a bad thing, you know, but as if there's some sort of stigma against using the skills God has given us to do other things. And that is so far from the truth. Like, just the number of women in our church that are just doing amazing things is really incredible. And so I'm glad to see that that was not. That was never my experience.

[Christine Cohen]

On top of writing fantasy fiction, Christine is the Master of Fine Arts, program director for New St. Andrews. There she oversees five faculty members, all men, including Christchurch pastor Doug Wilson. She says he's given her free rein to shape the program, even when they've disagreed.

[Doug Wilson]

And he said, you know, personally, I'd rather do this other thing, but you are in charge, so whatever you want to do is great.

[Christine Cohen]

Christine's first book, the Winter King, explores the idea of religious institutions oppressing people. She's very clear that it does not represent Christchurch.

[Doug Wilson]

What is funny is I've had sometimes people send me letters where they've been like, thank you so much for writing about how to escape from the patriarchy, you know, and I'm like, wait, that's. That's not what I meant.

[Christine Cohen]

Christine acknowledges there are situations in the world where women need to leave abusive marriages, but she says that's about the marriage. It doesn't make sense to then blame the whole faith.

[Doug Wilson]

If you're in that, you need to get out, but then you do need to find Jesus.

[Christine Cohen]

But some women see Christchurch as the abusive authority. Women like Helen Shores Peters. After the break, Helen is finished with headship. But she finds out that Headship isn't quite finished with her.

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[Heath Druzen]

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[Helen Shores Peters]

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[Nancy Wilson]

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[Heath Druzen]

Helen Shores Peters was shaken by her thoughts of suicide on that snowy road, but she didn't turn her back on headship right away. She says she and her ex husband Jason tried marriage therapy, but for her, that only underscored the intractability of the problem.

[Helen Shores Peters]

I remember in one of my first appointments with our marriage therapists, I was like, I don't know what people talk about this inner voice. I didn't have one. It was Jason's voice. It was always his voice in my head. What would he do? What does he want me to do? What will he think if I do this? I better check with him.

[Heath Druzen]

Nonetheless, she gave it a go for a painful year. Helen says she was still hoping it could fix their marriage, but she says nothing changed, so she filed for divorce. For his part, Jason says it felt like Helen wasn't serious about repairing their marriage. Marital counseling seemed like it was more of a I'm going to check this off my list so I can say I tried, but I already know what I'm doing. It's hard to overstate what a Rubicon crossing step this is. For a woman steeped in Christchurch ideology.

[Helen Shores Peters]

Divorce was just so scary and so not an option in my head, which is just silly now that I think about it.

[Heath Druzen]

Doug has a lot to say about divorce, about why it's only allowed in a few circumstances in church ideology and why it should be hard to get Here he is in an audio blog discussing the hypothetical case of a husband and wife who agree they don't want to be married anymore.

[Doug Wilson]

Neither one loves the other one. No kids, no joint property. Divorced would be pretty simple. Do they get to shake hands and call it off? No, they do not. They do not get to do this because they are not the ones who joined together. This is a covenant, not a contract. What God has joined together, let no man separate.

[Heath Druzen]

Mark 10:9 Doug says married couples can only divorce for reasons of infidelity or abandonment. In one way, Helen was able to make the leap to divorce because she wasn't just leaving her marriage.

[Helen Shores Peters]

I left religion, you know, and all of that was so intertwined for so long. It's just been a process trying to figure out.

[Heath Druzen]

Helen says Jason didn't take the divorce well.

[Helen Shores Peters]

He said that he was going to punish me or, you know, make it not great. And he has held up to his word for that. Absolutely. It's been literal hell.

[Heath Druzen]

Jason agrees he wasn't on board with the divorce. He disputes saying he would punish her.

[Helen Shores Peters]

I left my ex husband in 2016. The divorce wasn't finalized till 2017 and we are still in constant litigation.

[Heath Druzen]

And that's partially because now that Helen escaped the world of headship, she's trying to keep her sons away from that world too. That's coming up after the break.

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[Nancy Wilson]

Be Evergreen trees are Pacific Northwest icons in journalism. An Evergreen story isn't tied to one news cycle. It goes deep and helps you understand the world. The Evergreen is also a podcast from OPB about the Northwest. I'm Jen Chavez. Listen to the Evergreen podcast from OPB every Monday, part of the NPR network.

[Heath Druzen]

After the divorce, Helen and her ex husband Jason started fighting about their son's schooling. Jason wanted them to go to Logos, the Christchurch school both he and Helen went to. Helen was strongly against it because she says the school teaches that women should be subordinate to men.

[Helen Shores Peters]

That's probably the biggest reason why I don't want them to go there and why I fight so hard in like my own. Who I am and who the kids view me as is because I desperately need them to see that women are capable, powerful, have opinions, can speak out, that kind of stuff.

[Heath Druzen]

It's about avoiding headship. It's about what kind of men she hopes her boys become.

[Helen Shores Peters]

It gives me such panic to think that my sons could continue in that same line of thought process, that they are above their wife, that they're the head that their wife needs to obey. And those kind of teachings, I, I almost can't even accept it as a thought because I'm just so. Like, that would just be so horrible. But it very well could be true.

[Heath Druzen]

She was able to keep them out of the school for a while. Pressure was mounting, though. Her younger children kept asking her about going to Logos, and they were openly worrying about their mother's soul. They would show her prayer cards where they hoped she would return to Christianity.

[Helen Shores Peters]

I have had my youngest child sobbing at bedtime, afraid to die because I won't be in heaven. I don't want to cry yet.

So I thought it was going to hold it together.

[Heath Druzen]

But eventually Helen conceded the battle. All three boys wanted to go to Logos, and she decided to let them make their own decision. And so that's where they go to school now in this whole process, the divorce, the fight over Logos, Helen and her oldest son had a falling out.

[Helen Shores Peters]

The last real conversation I had with him was, and this was when he was 14, mind you, was him arguing with me about abortion and transgender issues.

[Heath Druzen]

She thought letting him go to Logos might change that.

[Helen Shores Peters]

You know, maybe he would reach out to me or we could have a relationship again, but that hasn't happened.

[Heath Druzen]

She says her oldest son has barely spoken to her in more than two years. After Helen left her husband, left headship, left the church, she remarried. She says her relationship with her current husband is 180 degrees from what she experienced before. She's living in Pullman, Washington and working as a nuclear medicine technologist. She is the other Helen now, which has been an adjustment.

[Helen Shores Peters]

I'm still learning how to love that other Helen because for so many years she was, you know, a pain in my side. Like, I just wish she would go away. I just wanted to follow and believe those things.

[Heath Druzen]

The legal battles with her ex have dragged on for years. It's painful not to have a relationship with her oldest son.

[Helen Shores Peters]

I got out and I am happy and I have this fulfilling life, but it's still this, like, fucking dark cloud that won't go away. And there's. I. There's no way to make it go away.

[Heath Druzen]

Helen has a message for Christchurch women who find themselves in difficult marriages or, or worse.

[Helen Shores Peters]

I would like to tell them that, yes, it's terrifying that what they're feeling is, is true and real and that nothing makes that go away, but that the hope for peace can become a reality. And it's a treacherous, long journey and it's not beautiful and it's broken and ragged and it's hard. But I wouldn't change a thing. Who I am today is a completely different person than who I was seven years ago. And I can honestly say that I love myself and I love my life.

[Heath Druzen]

Next time on Extremely American. Onward Christian Soldiers. Here's Doug Wilson playing Don Henley's dirty laundry. Critics say he's got plenty of his own. He was a diagnosed pedophile, Multiple victims, probation for life. And he now has a child who is defensive. Some say Doug looks out for abusers, including an abuse survivor who tells her story.

[Helen Shores Peters]

He's creating these perfect victims that are completely unable to say no.

[Heath Druzen]

Extremely American was created by me, Heath Druzen. This season was written and reported by me and James Dawson. Story editing by Morgan Springer, Mixing and sound engineering by James Dawson. Fact checking by Naomi Barr. Additional reporting and special thanks to Mary Ellen Pitney, who was a big help early on and throughout the project. Music from Artlist. Boise State Public Radio is our partner for this podcast. With distribution by the NPR Network. This podcast is made possible through a grant from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. If you're enjoying this season, check out season one of Extremely American. It's an inside look at armed militias and how they're influencing mainstream politics. Thanks for listening.

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[Ron Rutson]

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[Heath Druzen]

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[Helen Shores Peters]

By from the day that we started.

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