Onward Christian Soldiers: Joyful, Jolly Warriors

Summary

Extremely American: Onward Christian Soldiers – "Joyful, Jolly Warriors"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Extremely American
• Host/Author: NPR
• Season: 2
• Episode: Onward Christian Soldiers: Joyful, Jolly Warriors
• Release Date: August 7, 2024
• Description: This episode delves deep into the movement of Christian nationalism in America, exploring its goals, strategies, and the individuals driving its agenda. Through interviews and on-the-ground reporting, NPR examines how this movement seeks to transform American democracy into a theocracy, marginalizing non-Christians and altering societal norms.

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Introduction

In "Joyful, Jolly Warriors," NPR's Heath Druzen and James Dawson investigate the rise of Christian nationalism in America. The episode paints a vivid picture of a movement determined to reshape the nation's foundational principles by embedding Christian doctrine into every facet of government and society. The hosts attend the "Fight Laugh Feast" conference in northern Kentucky, a hub for Christian nationalists, to understand their motivations and strategies.

Key Figures and Movements

Gabe Wrench emerges as a central figure in the movement. Described by Heath Druzen as a "proud Christian nationalist," Gabe advocates for a society governed exclusively by Christian principles. At [01:31], he asserts, “I think that the Christian faith is the ideal moral doctrine and principles for a thriving society. And the farther you get away from that, the more in chaos we descend.” Gabe's influence extends through his popular streaming show, Crosspolitik, which blends fundamentalist religion, politics, and a youthful, edgy aesthetic to attract a broader audience.

Toby Sumter, a pastor and co-host of Crosspolitik, emphasizes the need for intensified Christian nationalism: “[07:20] 'We need to do Christian nationalism even harder.'” His speeches often highlight a militaristic approach to enforcing Christian values, as seen in his rallying cry at [07:15], “What are the steps we should be taking right now to restore Christianity to our nation?”

Stephen Wolf, author of "The Case for Christian Nationalism," presents a more uncompromising stance. At [13:07], he counters Gabe's assertion by stating, “No, they’d be less free, actually. Atheists would be, I think, less free because it would be because you wouldn't want an atheist to be in charge of an institution.”

Andrew Whitehead, an Indiana University professor and Christian nationalist critic, provides a scholarly perspective on the movement's implications for democracy. He reveals alarming statistics, noting that "20% of Americans strongly support Christian nationalism and 30% support it to some degree" ([26:59]).

Strategies and Ideologies

The episode highlights the strategic use of media and technology by Christian nationalists to propagate their message. Gabe Wrench’s Crosspolitik utilizes streaming platforms and social media to engage younger audiences, distancing themselves from the conventional image of megachurch pastors. This modern approach is encapsulated in his description of the show as a “faster pace show” with “a little rough around the edges” ([04:09]).

At the Fight Laugh Feast conference, the movement's ideology is reinforced through communal activities and theological discussions. The conference emphasizes themes like patriarchy and the authority of Jesus in governance. For instance, at [11:10], Gabe Wrench declares, “I want the authority of the Lord Jesus to be confessed by the House. And the Senate, and I want the president to sign it.”

Impact on Society

Gender Roles and Voting Rights: The movement advocates for rigid gender roles, where women are expected to “give life, not take life” ([20:39]). The 19th Amendment, which grants women the right to vote, is viewed unfavorably. Toby Sumter remarks, “That doesn't mean that women or children don't get a vote. It means that they are heard and represented and vote but through the father husband” ([21:32]). This reflects a desire to revert to a household voting model where only the male head of the household participates in elections.

Religious Exclusivity: Non-Christians, including Jews, Muslims, atheists, and others, face disenfranchisement. Heath Druzen, identifying as Jewish, experiences discomfort as Gabe Wrench subtly suggests that non-believers are societal threats. At [24:12], Guebe Wrench states, “If you don't believe in Jesus, then you're at odds you're at war with God,” labeling Heath as “God's enemy” ([24:49]). This rhetoric underscores the movement's exclusionary stance.

Economic and Social Control: The movement seeks to establish a parallel society where Christian-run businesses dominate. Initiatives like Kingdom Come, a LinkedIn-like platform for Christians, and Christian alternatives to various services (e.g., crowdfunding, Netflix) aim to create self-sustaining Christian communities. Heath Druzen observes, “They have Christian crowdfunding and email, Christian Netflix and a Christian hiring site” ([28:02]).

Challenges and Resistance

Despite their efforts, Christian nationalists face significant challenges. America’s demographic shift towards a more diverse and less Christian population threatens their agenda. Andrew Whitehead warns, “Opposition to democracy comes when they realize or when it becomes more clear that democracy may not return results that they've historically desired” ([25:43]). He emphasizes the importance of defending democratic institutions against attempts to marginalize certain voting blocs.

Internal Conflicts and Violence: While the movement publicly promotes a message of joy and community, the undercurrents suggest potential for conflict. William Wolf, a former Trump administration official, hinted at extreme measures: “In such a time, even the God of peace proclaims by his providence to arms” ([32:54]). This reflects a concerning readiness among some members to use force to achieve their goals.

Conclusion

"Joyful, Jolly Warriors" provides an unflinching look into the inner workings of the Christian nationalist movement in America. Through firsthand accounts and expert analysis, NPR exposes the ideology’s far-reaching implications for democracy, gender equality, and religious freedom. The episode serves as a stark reminder of the ongoing struggle to preserve America's foundational values against movements seeking to redefine them through exclusion and authoritarianism.

Notable Quotes:

• Gabe Wrench ([01:31]): “I think that the Christian faith is the ideal moral doctrine and principles for a thriving society. And the farther you get away from that, the more in chaos we descend.”

• Toby Sumter ([07:20]): “We need to do Christian nationalism even harder.”

• Stephen Wolf ([13:07]): “No, atheists would be, I think, less free because it would be because you wouldn't want an atheist to be in charge of an institution.”

• Andrew Whitehead ([26:59]): “I think the short term game is to recognize the threat to democracy and who has access to the vote.”

• Gabe Wrench ([24:44]): “If you don't believe in Jesus, then you're at odds you're at war with God.”

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Produced By:

• Heath Druzen and James Dawson
• Story Editing: Morgan Springer
• Mixing and Sound Engineering: James Dawson
• Fact-Checking: Naomi Barr
• Additional Reporting: Mary Ellen Pitney
• Special Thanks: Madeline Beck, Sasha Woodruff, Rachel Cohen
• Music: Artlist
• Partner: Boise State Public Radio
• Distribution: NPR Network
• Funding: William and Flora Hewlett Foundation

Further Listening:

• Season One: "Extremely American" explores armed militias and their impact on mainstream politics.

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Note: This summary omits advertisements and non-content sections to focus solely on the episode's substantive discussions and narratives.

Transcript

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[Heath Druzen]

Hey, Gabe, how you doing?

[Winston Marshall]

Welcome.

[Heath Druzen]

I'm talking to Gabriel Wrench, a media personality and activist in Idaho. Most people call him Gabe. Okay, great. Gabe has a lot of ideas about how America should change. You said it would probably take a long time, but that you would like to see only Christians be able to run for office. So if you're Jewish, if you're Muslim, if you're atheist, certainly if I had you right, you said that. Yes. You would support eventually them not being allowed to run for office.

[Gabe Wrench]

That's correct. I did say that because Gabe is.

[Heath Druzen]

A proud Christian nationalist.

[Gabe Wrench]

I think that the Christian faith is the ideal moral doctrine and principles for a thriving society. And the farther you get away from that, the more in chaos we descend. And so the only way to maintain that is, or one of the ways to maintain that is you have to have people who are running for office who believe that or you're gonna get back into that chaotic decline.

[Heath Druzen]

So I'll tell you straight up, as a Jewish American, I hear that that I can't run for office. Other non Christians can't. And I have to admit, it's a little terrifying to me because to me, that means a fundamental freedom of mine in this theoretical world is gone.

[Gabe Wrench]

Well, I mean, you're saying that in a country where you experience all these immense freedoms that was built on the Christian faith, so.

[Heath Druzen]

But where I can run for office right now?

[Gabe Wrench]

Yeah, because your worldview is not good for society. But you're unique in the sense that your problem is you just refuse to believe that Jesus is Messiah. Where it's like you get a lot right, but you get the key thing wrong.

[Heath Druzen]

So Gabe wants biblical law to apply to everyone. That means a lot less democracy, especially for non Christians like me. I should probably pause a moment here to acknowledge the bizarre journey I've been on for the Past year, I've mentioned before that I'm Jewish and it has been surreal to be immersed in this world of Christian nationalism. Don't get me wrong, people like Gabe have been unfailingly polite, which frankly makes it weirder. I'm being politely told I don't deserve key rights. But the reason I'm here listening to Gabe explain why I should lose my rights is not to feel uncomfortable. It's because plenty of people agree with him. Gabe is part of a younger vanguard of Christian nationalists trying to make their vision a reality. And they're spreading their word through popular streaming shows, including Gabe's creation, Crosspolitik.

[Gabe Wrench]

Merry Christmas. Welcome to Cross Politic. You could not wait for the weekend to end and Cross Politic to begin.

[Heath Druzen]

I mean, Crosspolitik is a mashup of fundamentalist religion, politics and drinking.

[Gabe Wrench]

So it's kind of faster pace show and, you know, a little rough around the edges. So I think that's attractive to a younger generation. Our music, you know, is a little more hard hitting and of course we have an older generation that tunes in. But in some sense the older generation made the bed that we're laying in. And I'm not quite sure they'll listen.

[Heath Druzen]

These aren't the megachurch pastors of yore with their faith healing and fire and brimstone. Those guys focused on arena sized church crowds. Gabe and his allies use popular streaming shows and savvy social media. They have followers around the country. They write books extolling the patriarchy and want their followers to get political and get more Christ into government. They love to get into my tribe, your tribe, tribalism and all sorts of nonsense. Gabe and his Christian nationalist peers are a whiskey drinking, cigar smoking set that favor expensive boots and well coiffed hair. What are we drinking?

[Gabe Wrench]

This is a Glen Fittich 14 year. I don't have to go back. This is from a listener, kind of.

[Heath Druzen]

Hipster theocrats with a distinctly bro motif. They want to sell you a cool, fun version of Christian nationalism.

[Winston Marshall]

I'm really grateful to have us on Cross Baltic today. Winston Marshall, English musician, pop podcaster. He's the former banjoist and lead guitarist of the British folk rock band Mumford and Sons. Man, that's what Gabe was trying to.

[Heath Druzen]

And business is good. These guys have popular books, a large podcast and a YouTube channel with about 20,000 subscribers.

[Gabe Wrench]

All right, y'all come on back. Come on in. Sit down. Squanch. In a word.

[Winston Marshall]

That's not a word.

[Gabe Wrench]

Squanch is a word from Texas and.

[Heath Druzen]

Each year, leading Christian nationalist thinkers, as well as rank and file believers gather at a conference.

[Gabe Wrench]

As soon as I walked on campus, someone handed me a glass of whiskey and I was like, all right, I'm at the Fight Laugh east conference now. It's official. It's official.

[Heath Druzen]

This is Gabe's creation. But more importantly, it's a great platform for Doug Wilson and his ideological allies because Gabe and his media partners are all prominent members of the Christchurch world. And it gives Doug and his fellow travelers a major venue to spread their ideas. Fight Laugh Feast is four days of fundamentalist Christians talking to Christians about being Christian.

[Gabe Wrench]

One of the gifts that God has given us is to be able to kind of be a place where we could bring like minded Christians together.

[Heath Druzen]

So Jimmy and I went, we flew across the country to where Gabe and his compatriots were brainstorming a Christian takeover of America. We were there to get a handle on what exactly these Christian nationalists have in mind for their fellow Americans who would be the winners and losers in an American theocracy. And the people we talked to had a lot to say.

[Winston Marshall]

What are the steps we should be taking right now to restore Christianity to our nation?

[Toby Sumter]

We need to do Christian nationalism even harder.

[Heath Druzen]

He's not Lord within the walls of our church. He's Lord over everything, every nook and cranny. I'm Heath Druzen and this is extremely Onward Christian Soldiers. A story about a small town, a big church, and the people who want to make America a Christian nation. Episode 8 Joyful Jolly warriors.

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[Heath Druzen]

To wrap up this season, Jimmy and I are taking you far away from Moscow, Idaho. We're in the northern Kentucky countryside.

[Doug Wilson]

The landscape is rolling and wooded with lots of farms and, of course, distilleries. But we're not here just as an excuse to go bourbon tasting. We're here to attend Fight Laugh Feast. The theme is the politics of the six days of Creation. This, of course, is the granddaddy of bible verses. Genesis 1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. From there, each day, God creates a new facet of the earth and on the seventh day, he rests. And yeah, Christian nationalists definitely go with.

[Winston Marshall]

He creation in six days. A gigantic floating zoo with giraffes sticking their heads out the windows, burning bushes, talking donkeys, dragons and unicorns. Resurrection from the dead. Yeah, we believe all of it. We are not embarrassed by any of it.

[Heath Druzen]

That's Toby Sumter, a pastor and a Christchurch affiliate and one of Gabe's co hosts on the show Crosspolitik. If you're wondering about the dragons, it's Revelations 12:3 and unicorns are actually mentioned throughout the Bible. Fight Laugh Feast is billed as a conference, but it feels more like a festival or this year even a political convention because everyone we talk to here thinks America should be a Christian nation.

[Gabe Wrench]

I want the authority of the Lord Jesus to be confessed by the House.

[Heath Druzen]

And the Senate, and I want the president to sign it.

[Doug Wilson]

If you recognize that voice, it's Pastor Doug Wilson, who a featured speaker here. Fundamentalist thinkers have come from around the country to be here. Nearly 1500 people, according to co founder Gabe Rench. And that's despite a per person ticket well north of $400. These Christian nationalists are here to put their heads together. They're planning how to take over America for Jesus, and they have ambitious goals. This is Pastor Toby Sumpter again in a speech at the conference.

[Winston Marshall]

And may you see your children's children standing in the gates of our cities, confounding our enemies until every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord and this land and all the earth, as full of the knowledge.

[Heath Druzen]

Of the Lord as the waters. We talked to a lot of people at the conference. They didn't pull any punches about who would be in charge in a Christian America. Christians, of course. When you talk to them though, they're often polite, funny and lighthearted about some heavy subjects. Gabe has a pithy term for this approach that he emphasizes in his speeches.

[Gabe Wrench]

We have to be joyful to Hollywooders. Joy is contagious. Being thankful is contagious.

[Heath Druzen]

Here's Gabe during a roundtable discussion on Christian nationalism at Fight Laugh Feast.

[Gabe Wrench]

So here's the follow up question that's going to happen is okay, if you only have Christian magistrates, then, you know, let's say I'm an atheist, would I be more free or less free? And the question, and the answer is more. And you can just.

[Heath Druzen]

It almost sounds like a hot new diet fad. Christian nationalism. Fewer rights, same great freedom.

[Gabe Wrench]

You would have no property taxes, no department of education, no department of labor, nobody. I mean, like you'd be far more free. And with Christian magistrates running our country because we have a Bible that limits the government's authority to get into our lives. I mean, come on, come on.

[Heath Druzen]

One guy wasn't interested in making Christian nationalism more palatable to non Christians. Stephen Wolf.

[Stephen Wolf]

No, they, they'd be less free, actually.

[Toby Sumter]

What's that?

[Stephen Wolf]

No, atheists would be, I think less free because it would be because you wouldn't want an atheist to be in charge of an institution. You, that they would be suppressed.

[Gabe Wrench]

What do you mean by institution? Government institution.

[Stephen Wolf]

They're a government institution or a public school.

[Gabe Wrench]

There wouldn't be public schools association or.

[Stephen Wolf]

Even like you may not want your CEO of, of a, of a business to be an atheist. I mean, we do this all the time with, with social dogma. If someone has a view that is against social dogma, we tend to think that should be suppressed, often with social harms to that person. Right. So then I think atheism should be one of those things. There is a sense in which if you publicly espouse certain views that are detrimental to good order in society, Atheism is one of those things.

[Heath Druzen]

Huh? Now that is a tough sell. Fewer rights, less freedom, suppression of your views, social harm. That guy, Stephen Wolf is the author of the influential and controversial book the Case for Christian Nationalism. It's a stark blueprint for turning America into a theocracy. We reached out to him for an interview, but he had a lot of demands. He didn't want us mentioning any of his friends or associates, and said no questions about his public social media posts. He also insisted that we refer to him as Dr. Wolff throughout the interview. Sorry, Doc, no can do. But what he set up on stage spoke volumes. In his view, a Christian nation is, by believers for believers, a little more dour than his joyful, jolly warrior tablemates. These talks are taking place in an auditorium at something called the Ark Encounter Inside. It looks like any business center auditorium, but if you walk outside, you find yourself in a kind of creationist Disneyland. This whole conference is taking place in the shadow of a wooden replica of Noah's ark. It dominates the skyline and is 500ft long, roughly the length of a football field and a half. Inside the ark, storm sounds are all around you, recreating the great flood. You can see the animals and dinosaurs the museum says were on the ark. You can even hear from an animatronic noah, why don't I look 600? What do you mean? I look about the same age as any other 600-year-old person I've met. Well, except for my wife, of course. Outside the ark, there's a zoo. You can get up close to the creatures the Bible says Noah rescued two by two. Okay, we're in the walkabout here, and there are definitely live kangaroos that we're about to walk and wallabies right by.

[Doug Wilson]

They're gonna let us pet them.

[Heath Druzen]

They're gonna let us pet a kangaroo. Wow.

[Winston Marshall]

Anybody has any questions about kangaroos, let me know. These are red kangaroos. They're the largest of kangaroos. But it's the boys that get big, the girls three feet tall.

[Heath Druzen]

And then we leave the ark and these cuddly kangaroos and re enter the real world. And that's where I find out I have enemies I never even knew about. That's after the break.

[Toby Sumter]

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[Heath Druzen]

Before every speech at Fight Laugh Feast, the conference's designated music leader takes to the podium with a songbook. Hey everybody, let's do I have my page? Let's do 21. In the auditorium, a crowd of hundreds of men, women and children stand and sing a psalm in unison. 1, 2. Jehovah tomb.

[Gabe Wrench]

My Lord has said, sit thou at.

[Heath Druzen]

My right hand until I make thy foes a stool whereon thy feet may stand. Jehovah shall from Zion send the sceptre of thy power in battle with thine enemies. Be thou the conqueror. And then they sit and Gabe introduces the next speaker. Over the course of four days, there were some themes. Patriarchy is far from a dirty word here. It's a foundational ideal of the movement. Every single speaker was a man, all but one. White guys. There was broad agreement that women should have defined separate roles in society.

[Gabe Wrench]

So this is why I don't believe women should be in the military at all is because God designed them to give life, not take life, and mostly.

[Heath Druzen]

Leave picking leaders to their husbands. Right. But ultimately, ultimately, he's the one who votes after. After consultation.

[Toby Sumter]

Yeah, sure, right. We would not have one Democrat president in the last 50 years if only men could vote.

[Heath Druzen]

That was David Shannon and the last voice was Joel Webbin. And in case it wasn't obvious, he doesn't want Democrats elected. Joel is a pastor from Texas with a big national following. I asked Joel what women's participation would look like in a Christian nationalist America. So 19th amendment mistake?

[Winston Marshall]

Uh huh.

[Toby Sumter]

Yeah, I think so. I really do.

[Heath Druzen]

The 19th Amendment was the one that guaranteed women the right to vote in America. It's pretty unpopular among Christian nationalists I spoke with.

[Toby Sumter]

That doesn't mean that women or children don't get a vote. It means that they are heard and represented and vote but through the father husband.

[Heath Druzen]

Just to be clear, it does quite literally mean they don't get to vote. This is that household voting method Doug Wilson mentioned earlier in the season. Ultimately, it means the husband votes for the household and only the husband. Except in rare circumstances where there is no man in the house. This idea came up over and over at the conference and in my talks with Christian nationalists around the country. So, women, in a Christian nationalist America, you would almost certainly be disenfranchised or you might need to wait to be widowed to cast that first ballot. Then you would qualify as the head of your household. There's a big focus on the household in these circles. Households create kids, and kids can be future Christian nationalists. The more kids, the better. At one point in between speakers, Gabe wrenches on stage giving away a large bag of coffee beans. The winner is the family who has the most kids.

[Gabe Wrench]

Seven or more kids.

[Heath Druzen]

Seven.

[Gabe Wrench]

Okay, good. Eight or more kids. Oh, my goodness, we got people still. 9.

[Heath Druzen]

Spoiler alert. A family with 10 kids won the bag.

[Gabe Wrench]

So you can come up here.

[Winston Marshall]

Good work.

[Gabe Wrench]

You. You deserve the coffee. Good job, Mama. Yeah, give her a hand.

[Heath Druzen]

Give her a hand. Okay, so we've heard that women are likely losing out in the rights department in a Christian nationalist America. And there's another huge group that could be relegated to second class citizens. Non Christians. As you might imagine, pretty much every attendee of Fight Laugh Feast was Christian except me.

[Gabe Wrench]

So I'll ask, are you a Christian?

[Heath Druzen]

I am not. I'm Jewish. Okay, that's Christian nationalist author Jaron Jackson turning the tables on me in our interview. I got this question a lot and it often led to an uncomfortable moment for me.

[Gabe Wrench]

So whenever I say you're an enemy of the gospel, you're not an enemy that I would do violence to. Like, that's the furthest thing. That's the furthest thing from what I would want.

[Heath Druzen]

As I mentioned before, the people at the conference are self described, joyful, jolly warriors. Jolly as they may be, warriors are at war. And in a war, there is always an enemy. What I started to realize was to them, that enemy was me. Here's Gabe.

[Gabe Wrench]

You know, the Bible says that if your enemy needs a drink, give him something to drink.

[Heath Druzen]

Are we your enemy, though?

[Gabe Wrench]

Well, I'd say you're God's enemy. If you don't believe in Jesus, then you're at odds you're at war with God.

[Heath Druzen]

Okay, so far I'm being assured that I'm not being violently assaulted. And I might get a glass of water, but I'm still not feeling great about being labeled an enemy. And the thing is, statistically speaking, there's a good chance they think of you as the enemy too. Remember, anyone who isn't within their strict Protestant worldview is against them, against God. If you're Muslim, atheist, agnostic, Hindu, Mormon, Catholic, Buddhist, you'd be out. Christian nationalist strategy isn't just ideological, though, it's practical. Remember, America is rapidly becoming less Christian. Demographics are death for Christian nationalists right now, and finding support from people they want to disenfranchise seems unlikely.

[Andrew Whitehead]

And so I think opposition to democracy comes when they realize or when it becomes more clear that democracy may not return results that they've historically desired.

[Heath Druzen]

That's Indiana University professor Andrew Whitehead. Andrew studies Christian nationalism and has written two books on the subject. But there's a workaround for not getting support in a democracy. If Christian nationalists get rid of entire voting blocs that might oppose their theocracy. Voting blocks like women, non Christians, anyone in the LGBTQ community, that starts to solve the problem. Being in the minority isn't as much of an issue if the majority can't vote. And remember, there's a blueprint for taking power. Slowly gain influence in your town, run for local office, start implementing Christian laws, use democracy in order to gain power and chip away at it. Andrew Whitehead says there are an alarmingly high percentage of Americans open to Christian nationalist views. He's done the research. He found that 20% of Americans strongly support Christian nationalism and 30% support it to some degree.

[Andrew Whitehead]

So I think the short term game is to recognize the threat to democracy and who has access to the vote.

[Heath Druzen]

In particular, Andrew calls on American Christians to be proactive in defending against Christian nationalism. Andrew is a Christian himself who grew up evangelical.

[Andrew Whitehead]

Yeah, so I grew up in Northern Indiana in a small town where everyone was very similar. Everyone went to church, you know, conservative politically, religiously, and that's where I was formed in the faith.

[Heath Druzen]

So Andrew has a special insight into the movement and he thinks there's firm theological ground for Christians to oppose Christian nationalism.

[Andrew Whitehead]

Because ultimately Christian nationalism is focused on, on gaining, maintaining access to self interested power. And I think that that ultimately draws Christians away from the example and words of Jesus in trying to break down dividing walls of hostility and to actually loving our neighbor.

[Heath Druzen]

But plenty of Christians are flocking to the ideology of Christian nationalism. And one thing we noticed at Fight Laugh Feast, Christian nationalists are trying to create a parallel society where as many goods and services as possible are provided by Christians. Leaders of Christian companies hawk their services on stage, in between speakers, there's Christian crowdfunding and email, Christian Netflix and a Christian hiring site. I'm Chris. I'm the founder of Kingdom Come. And Kingdom come is the LinkedIn for Christians who actually believe that God created the world in six literal days and are unashamed about it. There's an app to alert your partner if you're searching for porn, even a Christian alternative to health insurance, and a publisher putting out Christian children's books. With that, we created an entire universe where our characters are meeting these same ideologies that they're facing nowadays, with peer pressure, fake news, kill cancel culture, gender identity. But we talk about it from a Christian point of view. This parallel structure, parallel society, is trying to pave the way for a Christian America. And these guys are patient. Okay, so I spent a year inside this movement. I've talked to Christian nationalists from around the country. I've spent countless hours interviewing them and wading through sermons and speeches. Americans who support Christian nationalist ideas are a minority in the country. They can't snap their fingers tomorrow and implement their policies. But I think we need to take them very seriously. They vote, and they are dogged in their pursuit of their goal. In America, we tend to think of our institutions as. As guardrails against extreme ideas. I'm not sure we can take that for granted anymore. And Christian nationalists, they definitely see an opening right now. More and more politicians promote their ideas or won't condemn them. Even some judges are backing them up. We told you about the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, and his belief that there should be no separation of church and state. In June 2022, the U.S. supreme Court said parents in certain states can spend tax dollars for religious education. In Alabama, the state Supreme Court just outlawed in vitro fertilization. They are led by a Christian nationalist chief justice who quoted the Bible in his opinion. Then there's this plot by two former Trump administration officials. They drafted a paper laying out their priorities for a possible second Trump term. One of the bullet points is invoking the Insurrection act on day one to crush protests. Another bullet point, Christian nationalism. The story of the plot was reported by Politico. I recognize the name of one of the former Trump administration plotters, William Wolf, because he was at Fight, Laugh, Feast, and I talked to him off the record. He didn't agree to an interview. Here's something he said last year at a conference called Jesus and Politics. In such a time, even the God of peace proclaims by his providence to arms. And if we have ever lived in a point in time in American history since then that we could argue that now is a time to arms again. I think we are getting close. For context, back when Trump was president, Wolf was his deputy assistant secretary of defense, and it sounds like he's calling for a civil war. If Trump wins this year, he might call on Wolf to serve again. Christian nationalists think they are literally on a mission from God and they play the long game. If they do start getting their way, the America you know might not be there anymore. We'll send you out with Doug Wilson singing a classic by Bob Dylan, a Jewish guy who dabbled in evangelical Christianity before abandoning the faith. Supporters of Doug might hear his version as America getting closer to Jesus. Opponents hope it's his ideology Knocking on heaven's door.

[Gabe Wrench]

Knock knock, knocking on heaven's door.

[Heath Druzen]

Knock knock, knocking on heaven Extremely American was created by me, Heath Druzen. This season was written and reported by me and James Dawson. Story editing by Morgan Springer, mixing and sound engineering by James Dawson, fact checking by Naomi Barr, additional reporting and special thanks to Mary Ellen Pitney, who was a big help early on and throughout the project. Shout out to Madeline Beck, Sasha Woodruff and Rachel Cohen, who lent us their ears while we were writing this season. Music from Artlist Boise State Public Radio is our partner for this podcast with distribution by the NPR Network. This podcast is made possible through a grant from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. If you enjoyed this season, check out Season one of Extremely American. It's an inside look at armed militias and how they're influencing mainstream politics. Thanks for listening.

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