Onward Christian Soldiers: Obedience

Summary

Extremely American: Onward Christian Soldiers – Episode 4: "Obedience"

Released on July 10, 2024 by NPR

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Introduction

In the fourth episode of Season 2 of Extremely American: Onward Christian Soldiers, hosts Heath Druzen and James Dawson delve deep into the intricate dynamics of Christian nationalism within the small town of Moscow, Idaho. Titled "Obedience," this episode explores the pervasive influence of the Christchurch church, led by Doug Wilson, and its profound impact on the community, particularly focusing on themes of obedience, control, and abuse.

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Sarah Bader’s Stand Against Christchurch

Sarah Bader, a long-time resident of Moscow and a former student of Logos School, emerges as a central figure in this narrative. Her unwavering opposition to Doug Wilson's vision for the town underlines the tension between individual autonomy and institutional control.

• Community Control: Sarah observes, “[Doug Wilson] is executing an evangelical plan to conquer a town, conquering a nation” (01:12). She criticizes how church members have acquired significant portions of downtown Moscow, asserting that the broader Moscow community has been complacent in resisting these changes.

• Facing Harassment: Her activism has not been without personal cost. Sarah recounts receiving "900 emails of just the most nasty sort" (02:58), including threatening messages like a knife emoji and veiled threats of divine retribution. She shares, “If I go out in public, they record me, they take pictures, they post videos of me on their personal Facebook pages. So it’s kind of… it’s stalking” (08:19).

• Activism and Support: Despite the hostility, Sarah has been instrumental in assisting women escape abusive marriages tied to the church. She narrates a harrowing case where she helped a woman and her children flee to Washington within 48 hours to seek refuge under more favorable domestic abuse laws (05:52).

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Helen Shores Peters’ Journey from Obedience to Empowerment

Helen Shores Peters, another former member of the Christchurch community, provides a poignant account of her transformation from an obedient churchgirl to a vocal advocate against the oppressive doctrines of Christian nationalism.

• Early Life and Education: Helen describes her upbringing in an evangelical family, moving to Moscow at age eight to attend Logos School. Initially, she embraced the church’s teachings on headship and submission, as she states, “Yeah, I did” (16:04).

• Conflict and Expulsion: A pivotal moment in Helen’s life was her involvement in a romantic relationship that violated Logos School’s strict policies. After confiding in Doug Wilson, she was coerced into signing a contract that prohibited relationships with the opposite sex. When her ex-boyfriend Jason Scheibe's presence at her home led to her expulsion three months before graduation, Helen felt deeply betrayed and marginalized (25:24).

• Marriage and Abuse: Helen’s marriage to Jason Scheibe, whom she met in Portland, further exemplifies the detrimental effects of the church’s doctrines. Despite initial hopes, the marriage became strained, marked by controlling behavior and emotional abuse. Helen reflects, “I do think he was controlling in the way that he made it difficult to ever disagree” (30:00), highlighting the toxic dynamics fostered by the church’s teachings on male authority.

• Journey to Independence: Determined to reclaim her autonomy, Helen pursued education and a career as an X-ray technician. Her professional environment starkly contrasts with her personal life, revealing the duality enforced upon her by the church’s expectations.

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Doug Wilson’s Defense and Controversial Practices

Doug Wilson, the founder of Christchurch and Logos School, serves as both the architect of the community's religious doctrines and a figure of contention for former members like Sarah and Helen.

• Handling Conflicts: When confronted about allegations of harassment and abuse, Wilson asserts, “If she had hard evidence that someone had crowded her or threatened her or done anything untoward toward her and she knew who it was, all she'd have to do is let us know and we would take care of it” (09:35). However, Sarah contends that approaching Wilson is ineffective, stating, “Doug is part of the problem” (10:23).

• Inquiry into Personal Matters: Wilson defends his practice of asking intimate details from members, arguing it's essential for his pastoral and legal responsibilities. He stated, “Unless I ask those sorts of questions, I don’t know what my pastoral obligations are. I don’t know what my legal obligations are” (23:51).

• Public Persona vs. Private Actions: While Wilson publicly denies direct involvement in the harassment Sarah faces, Sarah and Helen’s experiences paint a picture of a leader deeply entwined with the control mechanisms of the community.

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Themes of Headship and Misogyny

A recurring theme in this episode is the doctrine of headship, which posits that men should be the leaders in society, government, and the household, with women expected to submit.

• Biblical Interpretation: The movement often cites Genesis 2:18 to justify patriarchal structures, interpreting Eve’s creation as a mandate for female subordination. Helen articulates, “That's the Bible says” (16:08), reflecting the ingrained belief system that underpins the community’s practices.

• Impact on Women: Both Sarah and Helen highlight how these doctrines foster environments where abuse can thrive. Sarah labels headship as “misogynistic” (04:19) and connects it to the systemic abuse within Christchurch and similar communities.

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Conclusion: The Struggle for Autonomy and Safety

"Obedience" underscores the profound struggles faced by individuals like Sarah Bader and Helen Shores Peters as they navigate and resist the oppressive structures of Christian nationalist movements. Their stories illuminate the broader implications of such ideologies on personal freedom, safety, and community integrity.

Notably, Helen reflects on the internal conflict between her ingrained obedience and emerging independence: “There have always been two Helens... She's a people pleaser and puts her needs last, especially when a man is involved. And then there's the other Helen... independent minded, questioning church doctrine” (27:51).

The episode paints a stark portrait of a community grappling with the tension between religious fervor and the fundamental human desire for autonomy and respect. As Sarah and Helen continue their advocacy, their resilience serves as a beacon for others seeking to break free from similar oppressive environments.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sarah Bader: “Doug Wilson is executing an evangelical plan to conquer a town, conquering a nation” (01:12).

• Sarah Bader: “If I go out in public, they record me, they take pictures, they post videos of me on their personal Facebook pages. So it’s kind of… it’s stalking” (08:19).

• Helen Shores Peters: “Yeah, I did” (16:04).

• Helen Shores Peters: “I do think he was controlling in the way that he made it difficult to ever disagree” (30:00).

• Doug Wilson: “Unless I ask those sorts of questions, I don’t know what my pastoral obligations are. I don’t know what my legal obligations are” (23:51).

• Helen Shores Peters: “There have always been two Helens... She's a people pleaser and puts her needs last... And then there's the other Helen... independent minded, questioning church doctrine” (27:51).

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This episode of Extremely American serves as a critical examination of how religious ideologies can permeate and potentially undermine democratic values and individual rights. Through the personal narratives of Sarah and Helen, listeners gain insight into the real-world consequences of Christian nationalist movements and the courageous efforts of those who resist them.

Transcript

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[Heath Druzen]

This episode deals with sexual coercion. And there's some cursing. There's also a mention of suicide. If you or a loved one are considering suicide, please call or text the national suicide hotline at 9 8-8- there is help available. All right, here we go.

[Interviewer]

Okay, I'm just gonna check my levels here, the dorky radio thing. So just gonna ask you to tell me what you like about Moscow.

[Sarah Bader]

Moscow. What do I like? I really do like the community as far as the downtown atmosphere used to be a lot better. It's a little bit different now.

[Heath Druzen]

I meet Sarah Bader in downtown Moscow, Idaho. Sarah went to high school here and has lived here most of her adult life. And she knows about Doug Wilson's plans for her town.

[Sarah Bader]

This evangelical idea of conquering a town, conquering a nation, which he's really enacting.

[Heath Druzen]

Sarah thinks he's having success. She says as church members have bought a chunk of downtown. She thinks other Moscowites haven't done enough.

[Sarah Bader]

In my experience, Moscow chose money over what I believed was a threat to the well being of the town. They chose money and it turned on them.

[Heath Druzen]

Sarah and I are at a Moscow wine tasting room. They offer Idaho wines made from grapes grown just a short drive away. But for Sarah, it's the big street side windows that are more important. They give her a good view of who is outside. A heads up if she should be worried. Sarah is one of Christchurch's most dogged opponents. Has been for a long time.

[Sarah Bader]

Pretty much Since I was 17, 18 years old, I've been operating to disrupt Doug Wilson's plans.

[Heath Druzen]

She doesn't have much good to say about them. She's a former Logos student and briefly attended Christchurch, but now she's helping women connected to the church get out of difficult or even abusive marriages. Sarah's work has come at a price since she's become more public over the last few years, she's gotten unsettling messages. She says the most alarming was a knife emoji. Another promised that God would kill her.

[Sarah Bader]

Curses. Just all sorts of really nasty messages on Facebook. Every once in a while, a particular man, I think he gets something up his bum. And I will get, you know, 900 emails of just the most nasty sort.

[Heath Druzen]

Some of them are anonymous, which Sarah says can be even more chilling. Walking around town, seeing people not knowing where they stand. Sarah's journey to becoming an opponent of Christchurch and Christian nationalism is a winding one. She grew up in an evangelical family in Michigan. She was homeschooled then when she was 8, they moved to Moscow. Her parents were drawn by Doug Wilson's idea of a church town. At first, Sarah went to a Christian school connected to Doug Wilson's brother. At age 12, she transferred to Logos, the school Doug founded. It was fine at first, but then things shifted. She remembers the moment she soured on the school. A teacher was repeating Doug Wilson's ideas on slavery, that it wasn't as bad as most people think.

[Sarah Bader]

It catalyzed me into being a force against Christchurch.

[Heath Druzen]

There was one other key idea that pushed Sarah out of the fold, the idea of headship. That's the teaching that men should be the head of society, government and the home, that women should obey them. It's foundational to Christchurch and the broader Christian nationalist movement. The people in favor of this often point to one particular Bible verse, Genesis 2. 18. Translations vary a bit, but it goes, then the Lord God said, it is not good that the man should be alone. I will make him a helper fit for him. Then God created Eve from Adam's rib. Some Christians take this to mean a woman's role is as a subordinate to men. Sarah says the idea of headship is misogynistic and that it leads to abuse in Christchurch and other Christian nationalist communities. Frankly, it's almost impossible to say if these communities have a bigger abuse problem than the general population. Doug Wilson says they don't. But other former members agree with Sarah. Either way, it's key to Sarah's activism. She helps church women escape relationships they say are toxic or abusive. At first she did it on her own and it was just kind of a word of mouth thing. One case in particular stood out.

[Sarah Bader]

It was a domestic violence case that was escalating and the woman had tried different venues to get help via the church and she felt it wasn't working and in fact was getting worse to the point where she felt like she no longer had hope or a way out.

[Heath Druzen]

Sarah agreed to help her and her children escape, and they had 48 hours.

[Sarah Bader]

And we had to arrange vehicles and people to come pick up her stuff, get her out and move her across the border into Washington. Before her husband got home, Sarah says.

[Heath Druzen]

She helped survivors move over the nearby border to Washington because its domestic abuse laws are more victim friendly than Idaho. For several years, Sarah Operated mostly in the shadows. Then in 2021, she went on a local pastor's YouTube show. Hello, my name is Pastor Kevin and I am with my friend Sarah Bader. During the episode, Sarah talked about helping abused women and she pulled no punches.

[Sarah Bader]

Christchurch is not a church, it is a cult.

[Interviewer]

The episode quickly started spreading around the Christchurch universe.

[Heath Druzen]

Calls started pouring in from more Christchurch women. Sarah says she and the pastor got upwards of 40 pleas for help and.

[Sarah Bader]

Other concerned members of the community joined me. And we just worked together to help remove them from the situation, get them across state lines, help them advise them of their rights.

[Heath Druzen]

There were a handful of extreme cases, domestic violence, women who said they were raped by their husbands.

[Sarah Bader]

Thankfully, we do have a network of other women who have already left that are always willing to help and put up women.

[Interviewer]

Correct me if I'm using the wrong word, if you use a different word, but you kind of have safe houses.

[Sarah Bader]

I would say so. They are unknown houses, so just somewhere to hide them until they can get the help they need.

[Interviewer]

When Sarah and I meet at that wine tasting room, it's a warm summer day. She's lean and dressed in jeans and a spaghetti strap top. And at one point during our interview, she gets quiet and stares hard toward the street. There's a pickup truck circling the block with what has become the de facto Christian nationalist flag. White, with a blue square in the corner and a red cross inside. It's the flag some Kirkers like to display. This puts Sarah on edge, as you.

[Sarah Bader]

Can probably tell, as I glance everywhere all the time, they. If I go out in public, they record me, they take pictures, they post videos of me in their personal Facebook pages. So it's kind of. It's stalking. We've had to change where I work.

[Interviewer]

Sarah says she and her allies are concerned things could eventually escalate.

[Sarah Bader]

Almost all of us either carry or have people that carry that. We are always with video cameras, security cameras at the house. We have alarms all over our property.

[Interviewer]

Do you carry a firearm normally?

[Sarah Bader]

Always, yes.

[Interviewer]

Are you packing right now?

[Helen Shores Peters]

Yeah.

[Heath Druzen]

We asked Doug Wilson about Sarah's claim of harassment by people who don't like her criticism of Christchurch.

[Doug Wilson]

I don't remember her at all. I have no interaction with her at all. If she had hard evidence that someone had crowded her or threatened her or done anything untoward toward her and she knew who it was, all she'd have to do is let us know and we would take care of it. We'd make sure that that stopped.

[Interviewer]

For her part, Sarah says Doug is part of the problem that going to him would do no good. Christchurch members have posted unflattering comments about Sarah on Facebook. I've seen them. But the more serious anonymous stuff, like a knife emoji, she says she has no way to know exactly who it comes from.

[Heath Druzen]

Sarah is clear that her cases involving women experiencing violence are rare examples. More often, people she works with don't experience violence, but have a relationship that becomes toxic over time. She says these women experience years of following a man's every whimsical, unable to push back. It's a drip drip of doing nothing without your husband's permission, saying yes to everything, even when you don't want to, until it becomes overwhelming. That's what Helen Shore's Peters says happened to her.

[Interviewer]

You mentioned Sarah and obviously Sarah mentioned you.

[Heath Druzen]

What what has she done for you?

[Interviewer]

Like, what does that look like as far as as her helping you out?

[Helen's Friend]

Oh, that's going to get me emotional.

[Heath Druzen]

You can take a sec.

[Helen Shores Peters]

Yeah, I need one. Wow. So Sarah is like the biggest badass ever. And what she has done for me is like shown me that in real form, that women can have power and they can have a voice and they can speak out. And she has changed my life in that way because I can see her doing it.

[Heath Druzen]

Today we'll hear Helen's story and the link she also sees between headship and her toxic relationships. I'm Heath Druzen and this is extremely Onward Christian Soldiers, a story about a small town, a big church, and the people who want to make America a Christian nation. Episode 4 Obedience.

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[Helen Shores Peters]

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[Heath Druzen]

I meet Helen at her house in Pullman, Washington. Pullman is a slightly bigger college town just over the border from Moscow. You're recording.

[Interviewer]

I just want to. I want to make sure that the levels are right, so you sound good.

[Heath Druzen]

Let me untangle this and if you need to move. Helen is 40, quick to smile and direct. She's got a nose ring and a small tattoo, things that are frowned upon in the Christchurch Logos fold.

[Helen Shores Peters]

Helen Shores Peters is what I go by.

[Interviewer]

Okay, just making sure. I want to call you what you want to be called.

[Helen Shores Peters]

Yep. So my maiden name is Shores, and when I got divorced, you know, I worked really fucking hard to get my name back. I lost myself a lot in my previous marriage, and that was one thing that my now husband and I talked about. Like, you know, I. I'm open to marriage again, but I will not lose myself, and that part of that is my name.

[Heath Druzen]

Long before Helen got married to her first husband, she was an eager young Christchurch member.

[Helen's Friend]

So my family never went to Christchurch or anything. That was all on me.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so you. I mean, you were a real true believer then because you chose it on your own?

[Helen's Friend]

Absolutely.

[Heath Druzen]

Helen's life was tumultuous at home. Her parents were divorced and there were addiction issues in her family. Christchurch felt stable, and being a member of this pious community made her feel like she could purify herself from what she saw as family shame.

[Helen's Friend]

It was an easy way for me to hide who I really felt I was. That was so dirty and unworthy. I learned that if I just learn the right answers to whatever questions that I may be asked, I can. I can go under the radar. I can fit in. I can be as holy as these other people.

[Heath Druzen]

When Helen was 14, she transferred to Logos after she started dating a boy at the school. And she bought into the church and school philosophy, including headship and. And women submitting to men.

[Helen Shores Peters]

Yeah, I did.

[Helen's Friend]

I accepted that.

[Helen Shores Peters]

Yeah. That's just the way it is. That's the Bible says.

[Heath Druzen]

And for a couple years, she enjoyed being at Logos. But the good feelings didn't last. They came crashing down her junior year. That's when she did what a lot of high schoolers do. She had sex with her boyfriend. At most high schools, teens having sex would be a pretty normal thing. Discouraged, sure, but not a surprise and not a matter of discipline. But Logos is not a typical high school the fourth student rule in the handbook says Logos School is not the place in which romantic relationships between students should be initiated or cultivated. Public displays of romantic affection are unacceptable. Helen knew this when she had sex with her boyfriend. She knew it was a violation of school policy and evangelical Christian morality, but she thought it would stay between her and her boyfriend. We're bleeping his name here. To protect his privacy.

[Helen Shores Peters]

Then decided on his own to confess to his parents about what happened.

[Heath Druzen]

She says her boyfriend's dad was also an elder at Christchurch, and he reported the incident of premarital sex to the school.

[Helen Shores Peters]

The next thing that I remember is a meeting with Doug Wilson in his office with my mom, my dad, me.

[Heath Druzen]

Her boyfriend's parents were there too, and.

[Helen Shores Peters]

We were talking about what happened and how do we navigate this? What do we do? Do we let them back into school? All this kind of stuff.

[Heath Druzen]

Wait, Doug Wilson?

[Interviewer]

Yes, the leader of Christchurch and the founder of Logos. He was a member of the Logos board and still is today, and he says he would often take on disciplinary issues when they came up as the pastor and leader in the community. Other women we talked to or read accounts about also described this sort of scenario. They'd break Logos rules and end up in an office with Doug.

[Helen Shores Peters]

At that meeting, what was decided was that a. We would have to sign a contract, both of us, to get back into Logos School for our senior year. And the contract entailed that we were not allowed to tell anyone that we had sex at all. If we break the contract, we're kicked out, all that kind of stuff. And neither of us could have a relationship with a member of the opposite sex, which is pretty normal in Logos.

[Heath Druzen]

And remember that last stipulation, no relationships with the opposite sex. It will end up being crucial to Helen. Okay, so on the one hand, Helen was sort of stunned and relieved she hadn't been expelled. On the other hand, I personally felt.

[Helen Shores Peters]

That it was all of my fault completely because obviously I became from a divorced family. I'm obviously the weakest link here. Like, I. I seduced him into having sex with me. And look at what happened, and look at all these lives that, like, I'm now ruining.

[Interviewer]

Did Doug do anything to try to.

[Heath Druzen]

Make you feel better about that, or did Doug.

[Helen Shores Peters]

Oh, God, no, no, no. There was no, like, you know, I. I try and think of it as, like, what I would do if my kids were in that situation. Grace, understanding, love, hug, you know, just, like, warmness. Those are the kind of things, like, that's so traumatic. It was so Traumatic. There was none of that. It was business. It was pr. It was, how do we make this go away as much as we can.

[Heath Druzen]

School kind of sucked after that. Helen was carrying this big secret and she was also still carrying a torch for her boyfriend. And things were about to get worse. Helen and her boyfriend had a hard time adhering to their secret contract. And Helen would feel the consequences.

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[Heath Druzen]

After Helen and her boyfriend had signed the contract. The one agreeing not to have relationships with the opposite sex. They were both in drama at Logos.

[Helen Shores Peters]

And we were still very much like, in this, like, unrequited love. Anyway, we were backstage and he was behind me and he ended up like, you know, putting his hands down my pants and that kind of thing. Well, his mom walked through the curtains right at that moment. We're like, oh, shit. Totally got caught on that one. So then shit really hit the fan.

[Heath Druzen]

That meant back to Doug Wilson's office, this time alone again. We're bleeping the boyfriend's name.

[Helen Shores Peters]

He said to me, was already in my office and told me every single detail of what happened. You need to tell me every single detail of what happened. Because if you leave something out, I know you're lying. So I did. I went and told him every single detail about where his hands went, what happened, the whole entire yards.

[Heath Druzen]

There's a bit of a pattern here of this kind of question from Doug and his staff. A sexual abuse survivor has publicly described a similar experience. Another woman who you'll hear from in a later episode said a different low class administrator asked her for details of her sexual experiences. Looking back, Helen says it was deeply inappropriate to ask a teenager such intimate questions. Doug would not talk about specific cases, but he says it's part of his job to ask for intimate details.

[Doug Wilson]

Unless I ask those sorts of questions, I don't know what my pastoral obligations are. I don't know what my legal obligations are. I need to know what I'm dealing with. So the people who say he asked me about the details of my sexual behavior, as though I'm getting my jollies from that sort of question. No, you can't go to the gynecologist to have your baby and then object to him doing his job. Right. And the pastoral job frequently has to do with uncovering what exactly happened after the meeting.

[Interviewer]

Helen says Doug kind of swept it under the rug again. They basically gave Helen and her boyfriend an even stronger warning that breaking the contract would mean expulsion next time.

[Heath Druzen]

A few months after that meeting, Helen caught a bug and got pretty sick. Her mom was working and couldn't come home for lunch to check on her daughter. So she called Helen's ex boyfriend, Jason Scheibe, to check on her. Yeah, it sounds weird. Helen is still not sure why her mom called Jason, but her mom did, and Jason came over. Someone connected to Logos happened to see Jason's car there and they reported it to the school. Helen says she was hauled into another meeting with the school administrator. Doug wasn't there this time.

[Helen Shores Peters]

He goes, well, you're dating Jason Shibe again. You're in direct violation of the contract and you're expelled. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That, no, no, no, no, I'm not dating Jason. I was sick.

[Interviewer]

And just like that, she was expelled three months before graduation. Meanwhile, she says the boy she had sex with was carrying on a relationship with another girl in violation of the contract. He got to graduate, though.

[Helen's Friend]

I was just so angry because I just felt like I should have been able to graduate and I was just super unhappy. I guess I was just, just an angry human.

[Interviewer]

Her expulsion shook her faith in the whole Christchurch belief system. She had bought into.

[Helen's Friend]

I feel like even then at a very young age, I understood like the injustice of what happened, that I was treated differently than the male counterpart.

[Heath Druzen]

This brought out something in Helen that she says always kind of bubbled below the surface. She says there have always been two Helens. There's Helen one the go along, get along, obedient church girl. She's a people pleaser and puts her needs last, especially when a man is involved. And then the there's the other Helen. Career oriented, independent minded, questioning church doctrine. She says she speaks up for herself and doesn't let men crush her dreams. After being expelled, Helen got her GED and headed to Portland, Oregon on her own. She went to community college with an eye toward becoming an X ray technician. And she was supporting herself through school. The the other Helen was peeking out, but she was still a church girl. She stayed with a Christian family in Portland, found a Baptist church. It wasn't Christ Church, but it was evangelical and she still had the teachings of Christchurch in her head. Her whole life she had been taught that women should prioritize homemaking and exist primarily to help men. Doug Wilson talks a lot about that. He's written books on the subject. One of them says that a biblical man should want a woman, quote, who wants to be home oriented. And here he is from his audio blog.

[Doug Wilson]

Godly women want to feed their men. Godly women are designed to make the sandwiches. In Titus 2. 5, Paul is saying that the older women should be teaching the younger women to be busy at home keepers at home. That includes the sandwiches.

[Heath Druzen]

So Helen felt wronged, but she still thought she needed to make the sandwiches.

[Helen's Friend]

I just felt so inadequate without a man. Even when I was living in Portland, all I wanted, my destination was to be married and have kids.

[Interviewer]

While she was in Portland, Helen got back together with the guy she would make sandwiches for. Jason Scheibe, that same guy who had inadvertently gotten her expelled by showing up at her house when she was sick. And his name might sound familiar. Jason was the happy Logos grad from episode one. His experience and Helen's were sort of opposite. Helen and Jason dated long distance for a bit, and then at age 20, they got married. Helen eventually moved back to Moscow. Helen says two years into the marriage, the cracks started showing. It started when she had their first son and there were complications. She asked that we bleep the name of her son.

[Helen's Friend]

I almost died. We almost lost. It was horrendous.

[Heath Druzen]

They had a long recovery at the hospital.

[Helen's Friend]

Jason only came up one time to see me in the nicu. And it was so lonely. And I just remember being not understanding why he didn't want to be there every day. And he said it's because he had to work.

[Heath Druzen]

Jason remembers this differently. He says he was building a house for them, something they both wanted, but he was still at the hospital all the time. Helen says things deteriorated after that. She says Jason took his role as.

[Interviewer]

Head of the house very seriously, at.

[Heath Druzen]

Least when it came to telling her how things were going to be.

[Helen Shores Peters]

It was always his way, always 100%, and it was just easier to do his way. So I can't, like, say it's all his fault. Right. Because it's like I also just agreed to do it his way because it was easier. Yeah. So I do think he was controlling in the way that he made it difficult to ever disagree. And if you did disagree, you know what you're signing up for. And it's a brow beating.

[Heath Druzen]

Jason denies he was controlling. He says they made most decisions jointly, but he says they had agreed that he should be the ultimate decision maker.

[Interviewer]

And I said, in the occasional time when we're just going to butt heads, you know, and I feel really strongly on it, like on those very few times, can we agree that. That we. You can defer to me.

[Heath Druzen]

Helen says she was respected at work as an X ray technician, and her co workers were surprised. The Helen they knew was an obedient wife at home.

[Helen's Friend]

That I didn't speak my voice, that I didn't speak up on my opinions or anything like that, because that is not who the people at my workplace knew. I was very driven, took care of a lot of issues all the time. Like, I was very, very, very good at my job, very, like, direct.

[Heath Druzen]

It was the two Helens again. And for the Helen at home, she says things were getting dark.

[Helen's Friend]

I don't think that there was sexual abuse. I don't think there was. It could just be the regular, like, marriage stuff, like, no, I don't want to. But the no never stayed at a no. The convincing, the, you know, all that kind of stuff and then giving in that that happened quite frequently.

[Interviewer]

I don't want to dwell on this if you're not comfortable talking about it, but, I mean, you just mentioned sexual, like, cajoling. It sounds like he was like, I don't accept no as like, an acceptable answer.

[Helen Shores Peters]

Yeah.

[Helen's Friend]

And I think that's. That's a pretty new thing for me to have even considered. I'm like, literally just started to hear other women saying, like, oh, yeah, my husband did that quite often. And it's not okay. And so I'm like, wait a second. I just figured that that's what happens in marriage and it's not.

[Heath Druzen]

Jason denies exerting any kind of pressure. And in these types of situations it can be extremely difficult to prove who is right. One of his Facebook posts does seem to sort of laugh off sexual pressure though. He wrote, quote, I've even heard a woman claim she was raped by the man she was leaving, then when asked for details, said she didn't want to have sex with him and he did and she said she just gave in. It was then pointed out that this would be accurately described as every marriage. Lol. I asked Jason about this. He says a woman falsely accused his friend of rape and that he was reacting to it. The most dramatic incident in Helen's marriage happened when she bought an iPhone. Helen says she knew from the get go Jason would disapprove.

[Helen Shores Peters]

He hates Apple products, always has. I'm not sure why he's a he. It's his opinion or no way.

[Heath Druzen]

But something clicked inside her when she was talking to a friend.

[Helen Shores Peters]

So I was like, I really want an iPhone. Jason won't let me have it. And so she was like, well no, if you want an iPhone, let's just go get it. I'm like, hey, like I feel like empowered. I'm going to go get my iPhone. So I did.

[Interviewer]

Helen says it was the first time in a long time she had taken control in her marriage. She says it felt liberating until Jason found out and called her afterwards.

[Helen Shores Peters]

He found out while I was down in Lewiston at the Sprint store and called and said just horrible things and was so mad that I disobeyed him on that.

[Heath Druzen]

Helen says when she got home, Jason told her to drive back to the store to return the phone.

[Helen Shores Peters]

I was like, you really want me to do it right now? I have to drive down to Lewiston. It was was in the middle of a snowstorm.

[Heath Druzen]

Jason refutes much of this story. He says he told her she shouldn't drive to Lewiston.

[Interviewer]

He also says he told her she.

[Heath Druzen]

Could get the iPhone but to wait until their phone lease was up in two months. Either way, they both agree Jason doesn't like Apple products and she did drive back to Lewiston that night in the storm. The town's about 40 minutes away in good weather and the road there is steep and winding with some scary drop offs.

[Helen Shores Peters]

So I was mad at myself because I was finally gave up. You know, he'd broken me down enough to give up.

[Heath Druzen]

As she negotiated the heavy snow, she sunk lower and lower into despair.

[Helen Shores Peters]

And it was bad roads. And I just remember thinking, like, I could just push on the gas and just go off this corner and no one would know that I did it on purpose.

[Interviewer]

Sa.

[Heath Druzen]

Next time on Extremely American. Onward Christian Soldiers. Helen learns the price of disobedience.

[Helen Shores Peters]

Because it was a test, right? It was all a test for him to see where my allegiance was.

[Interviewer]

Extremely American was created by me, Heath Druzen. This season was written and reported by me and James Dawson. Story editing by Morgan Springer, mixing and sound engineering by James Dawson. Fact checking by Naomi Barr. Additional reporting and special thanks to Mary Ellen Pitney, who was a big help early on and throughout the project. Shout out to Madeline Beck, Sasha Woodruff and Rachel Cohen, who lent us their ears while we were writing this season. Music from Artlist Boise State Public Radio is our partner for this podcast with distribution by the NPR Network. This podcast is made possible through a grant from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. If you're enjoying this season, check out season one of Extremely American. It's an inside look at armed militias and how they're influencing mainstream politics. Thanks for listening.

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