Onward Christian Soldiers: The Charismatic Preacher And The Intoleristas

Summary

Extremely American: Onward Christian Soldiers - The Charismatic Preacher and the Intoleristas

Season 2 of NPR's "Extremely American" delves deep into the rise of Christian nationalism in America. In the episode titled "Onward Christian Soldiers: The Charismatic Preacher and the Intoleristas," hosts Heath Druzen and James Dawson explore the controversial journey of Doug Wilson, a prominent figure in the movement aiming to transform American democracy into a theocratic state.

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Early Beginnings: God's Garage

The story commences in the early 1970s in Moscow, Idaho, where a young Doug Wilson, then in his late teens, begins his foray into evangelism. Living with his parents, Jim and Doug Wilson, Doug's father was an established Christian author and bookstore owner. Seeking to minister to troubled youth, Jim transformed their garage into "God's Garage," a hub for teenagers seeking refuge and spiritual guidance.

Doug Wilson (00:59): "It was a big hangout place. And in this hangout place, conversations all the time. What I would describe as street level apologetics."

Heath Druzen narrates how "God's Garage" became a central location for Doug to preach and engage with teenagers, fostering an environment where young individuals could openly discuss faith, the Bible, and existential questions.

Academic Pursuits and Ideological Formation

Doug pursued a major in philosophy at the University of Idaho, a choice that seemed unconventional for a devout Christian. His aim was to equip himself with the intellectual tools necessary to engage with a broader audience.

Doug Wilson (09:17): "I wanted to be able to interact with the students who would come into the bookstore having read the best that the other side had to offer."

During his university years, Doug was mentored by Nick Geyer, one of his philosophy professors and later, his most vocal critic. Their relationship was initially collegial, marked by debates over theological and philosophical doctrines.

Critic 1 (10:05): "Doug came up to me after the first class and introduced himself. He's always so polite and civil..."

However, as Doug's ideology hardened, especially his interpretations of Christianity and his stances on social issues, the rift between him and Nick deepened, setting the stage for future conflicts.

Rise of Community Evangelical Fellowship

Post-graduation, Doug took over preaching duties at Faith Fellowship, a congregation he initially joined as a song leader. Under his leadership, the congregation expanded rapidly, adopting the name Community Evangelical Fellowship and moving through various venues in Moscow, from parks to auto garages.

Doug Wilson (14:44): "We didn't really have any formal structure or building or anything to speak of..."

This period marked the foundation of what would later become Christchurch, Doug's flagship church, as he eschewed traditional seminary education in favor of self-directed theological study.

Controversial Views on Slavery

A pivotal moment in Doug's career was the co-authorship of the booklet Southern Slavery As It Was in 1996. This publication sought to present slavery in the American South as a harmonious and biblically sanctioned institution, a narrative that ignited widespread condemnation.

Nick Geyer (19:31): "There has never been a multiracial society which has existed with such mutual intimacy and harmony in the history of the world."

The booklet not only downplayed the atrocities of slavery but also positioned abolitionists and the North as antagonists. This perspective was in stark contrast to established historical consensus and provoked significant backlash within and beyond the community.

In response to the growing outrage, Nick Geyer spearheaded efforts to publicize the controversial booklet, leading to protests and widespread condemnation from academic and local leaders alike.

Critic 1 (20:03): "I didn't want to have anything to do with Doug Wilson, but when this came out, I had to do something."

Despite the negative reception, Doug hosted a town hall to address the controversy, a move that did little to alleviate tensions. The booklet's defense of slavery using biblical references further alienated him from mainstream society.

Doug Wilson (24:00): "Christians who owned slaves in the south were on firm scriptural ground... Christians may own slaves, end quote."

The Intoleristas and Continued Growth

Amidst the fallout, Doug coined the term "Intoleristas" to describe his critics, portraying them as intolerant opponents of his mission.

Doug Wilson (25:09): "There are people who are hostiles. They're... I call them intoleristas."

This labeling strategy mirrored tactics used by contemporary political figures, helping Doug galvanize his base by framing opposition as inherently intolerant. Contrary to expectations, the controversy did not diminish his influence; instead, his church and associated networks continued to expand.

Doug Wilson (27:36): "We've had a number of controversies, maybe five big controversies over the years, and in every one of them, the church has grown."

Nick Geyer reflects on Doug's trajectory with a mix of remorse and astonishment, acknowledging his role in Doug's early intellectual formation while grappling with the destructive path Doug ultimately took.

Nick Geyer (28:55): "He's a cute, bright young man... It became an embarrassment for us."

Legacy and Impact

Doug Wilson's unyielding stance and strategic use of controversy have cemented his position as a leading figure in Christian nationalism. His refusal to apologize or retract his statements, coupled with his ability to attract followers even in the face of widespread criticism, underscores the complex dynamics of his influence.

Doug Wilson (27:53): "Well, I'm... I think it's because people are hungry for definition and leadership, and they don't like living in a relativistic fog."

As Doug's influence expanded through media, educational institutions, and political advocacy, "Onward Christian Soldiers" illustrates the intricate interplay between personal ideology, community dynamics, and broader societal impacts.

Conclusion

This episode of "Extremely American" offers a comprehensive examination of Doug Wilson's rise within Christian nationalism, highlighting the contentious issues of his advocacy and the resultant societal fractures. By intertwining personal narratives with broader ideological debates, Druzen and Dawson provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the challenges posed by movements seeking to reshape American democracy through the lens of religious fundamentalism.

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Notable Quotes:

• Doug Wilson (00:59): "It was a big hangout place. And in this hangout place, conversations all the time. What I would describe as street level apologetics."
• Nick Geyer (19:31): "There has never been a multiracial society which has existed with such mutual intimacy and harmony in the history of the world."
• Critic 1 (20:03): "I didn't want to have anything to do with Doug Wilson, but when this came out, I had to do something."
• Doug Wilson (25:09): "There are people who are hostiles. They're... I call them intoleristas."
• Doug Wilson (27:36): "We've had a number of controversies, maybe five big controversies over the years, and in every one of them, the church has grown."

These quotes encapsulate the tensions and dynamics explored in the episode, providing insight into Doug Wilson's rhetoric and the reactions it elicited.

Transcript

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[Heath Druzen]

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[Heath Druzen]

It's the early 1970s. Doug Wilson is in his late teens, and he lives with his parents in Moscow, Idaho. Near downtown, right by the public high.

[Doug Wilson]

School, there's a ditch that they used to call Doper's ditch because the kids would come off of the school property to smoke cigarettes and get into trouble and whatever. And one morning my dad looked out and saw a cop dispersing all the kids. Just move along, move along. So my dad ran out there and said to the officer, officer, can the kids smoke in my garage? Cop said, well, it's your garage, okay? So the cop chased them all into the garage. And my dad is a very gifted evangelist, very interested in ministering to kids. And so the kids who were chased into the Garage thought that Mr. Wilson was the coolest thing ever.

[Heath Druzen]

Doug's dad, Jim Wilson, was an established Christian author and bookstore owner. They were Southern Baptists, and Jim saw an opportunity in the kids minor vice.

[Doug Wilson]

And so they went into the garage to smoke. And my dad wound up getting a pop machine. And we painted the walls. And it was a Jesus people type of era.

[Heath Druzen]

They called it God's Garage. God's Garage kept coming up in our interviews. It was this locally famous space in Doug's childhood home that was supposedly covered in religious art. When Jimmy and I first heard about it, we figured it was a place that only existed in memories today. After all, it had been over 50 years. But then we got a tip that the garage was still intact, and the current owner was kind enough to let Jimmy check it out. The place where a teenage Doug first started preaching.

[Nick Geyer]

Oh, wow. All right. So I am standing in God's garage and we've got a lot of paintings here. This is Very well preserved for being, you know, 50 plus years old.

[Heath Druzen]

It's a little like opening up a time capsule. The wooden slats of the walls still covered with nearly pristine religious murals.

[Nick Geyer]

We've got a picture of what looks like a hippie wearing sandals and socks, which I don't recommend, but he was holding a sign that said God is dead. And there is a blue hand coming out from a cloud grabbing that and yoinking it up to the heavens.

[Heath Druzen]

The murals are surprisingly modern. They almost look like graffiti tags from the 90s or something. And they kind of foreshadow the hipster Christian vibe Doug's religious empire would eventually take on.

[Nick Geyer]

I think my favorite one is this guy in the style of R. Crumb saying, keep on trucking with Jesus, holding a Bible, wearing a cross necklace.

[Heath Druzen]

This is where Doug would hold court with the teen smokers. And there was one main topic.

[Doug Wilson]

It was just basic evangelism, right? You kids need Jesus and here's the gospel. And they were wide open and receptive to talking about God, talking about Christ, basically. It was just a big hangout place. And in this hangout place, conversations all the time. What I would describe as street level apologetics. The kind of questions about the Bible and God and Jesus that high school kids would have or the meaning of life.

[Heath Druzen]

Doug may have been a fundamentalist Christian, but he still looked the part of the era.

[Nick Geyer]

So set the record straight for us because the people that told us about God's garage also mentioned that you had long hair at the time.

[Doug Wilson]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was an air farmer and I play, I played the guitar. Still do.

[Heath Druzen]

Doug was 18 at the time, preaching and singing to kids who were not much younger than him.

[Doug Wilson]

I ran it until I went in the Navy.

[Nick Geyer]

That was the beginning of Doug Wilson, preacher. Whatever you think of Doug, he's had an impressive trajectory since then. He's worked his way up from strumming in a garage to being a leading Christian nationalist figure, from small town preacher to building a kind of Christian industrial complex.

[Doug Wilson]

Mid-80S. I was thinking big. There's a 19th century Scottish preacher named Thomas Chalmers who said who's no matter how large, your vision is too small. So I was thinking big.

[Heath Druzen]

And as he got bigger, he attracted controversy nearly as much as he attracted worshippers. One of the biggest controversies happened when people discovered this booklet Doug had written about slavery. They talked about it in a documentary called My Town.

[Doug Wilson]

I mean, there are parts of that booklet that talk about how slavery was harmonious, that, you know, African slaves had.

[Nick Geyer]

Great health care coverage and it threatened his burgeoning empire.

[Critic 1]

I thought it was my duty to lead the charge. On the slavery booklet, we'll follow how.

[Heath Druzen]

Doug's religious views take shape and how he wards off controversy and finds his footing as a Christian leader in Moscow. I'm Heath Druzen, and this is extremely Onward Christian Soldiers, a story about a small town, a big church, and the people who want to make America a Christian nation. Episode 3 the charismatic preacher and the Intoleristas.

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[Heath Druzen]

Doug Wilson always hated what he saw as a heathen society, but he never ran away from it. He wanted to change it. He's a fundamentalist, not an isolationist. He's been preparing his whole adult life to battle the secular world. It began in his parents home in God's garage, and the battle against secularism continued when he went to the University of Idaho in Moscow, the kind of public institution he skewers these days. There, Doug pursued a major in philosophy, what might seem like an unlikely choice for a devout Christian.

[Doug Wilson]

The reason I was studying philosophy is because my dad ran an evangelistic bookstore here, and my plan was to do the same thing my dad was doing. I thought, well, I'll graduate and I'll go to another small college town. Open up an evangelistic bookstore. Bookstore do the same thing. And I wanted to study philosophy because I wanted to be able to interact with the students who would come into the bookstore having read the best that the other side had to offer.

[Heath Druzen]

For this episode, Jimmy and I sat down with someone who knows a thing or two about Doug Wilson and philosophy.

[Nick Geyer]

Nick Geyer has known Doug Wilson for decades. Back in the 70s, he was one of Doug's philosophy professors at the University of Idaho. He was also one of Doug's first debating partners.

[Critic 1]

Doug came up to me after the first class and introduced himself. He's always so polite and civil, and he says, I'm Doug Wilson and I hope you don't mind if I defend the faith in this class. And I said, I don't mind at all.

[Nick Geyer]

And Doug defended the faith a lot. Doug took just about every philosophy and religion class Nick offered. And in each class, he and Nick would go back and forth. Nick's philosophy of religion class could get particularly intense.

[Critic 1]

So in that class, we had steady debates with students who would object to the ontological argument for the existence of God. And I just put it out there, the best arguments that I could give, and let the students debate it.

[Nick Geyer]

A lot of those debates were between Nick and Doug. They would argue the merits of Christianity versus Eastern religions and the hot button issues of the day like abortion.

[Doug Wilson]

Nick was arguing that personhood and humanity are not coterminous. In other words, someone could be human, an unborn child could be human and not yet have the legal status of person accorded to human to him or her. And I was arguing that from the moment of conception on, the human being is a person and should have full legal protection.

[Nick Geyer]

Back then, Nick says, Doug wasn't the sharp elbowed fire breather he is now. Unlike today, he didn't mock feminists or gay and transgender people, among many others, at least not in class. And back then, Nick was a fan.

[Critic 1]

I enjoyed being around him. We were friends. At this point in time. I wasn't really aware of how smart he really was. Just intelligence and an ability to use his intelligence in a very clever, sometimes dishonest, political way.

[Nick Geyer]

Over the years, Nick says he became horrified by what his former student turned into. The fundamentalist who preached that women should be subservient to men, for one. Nick would go on to be one of Doug's biggest critics.

[Critic 1]

I just have so many negative things to say about Doug.

[Nick Geyer]

Nick had one more recent story about Doug that was positive.

[Critic 1]

But what I heard is that Doug dropped everything and moved in with his father during his last months and weeks. And I really emphasize that. I admire that because he has so many things going that he could use as an excuse not to spend that time with his father. So I'm almost to tears sharing that because I think that's really amazing.

[Nick Geyer]

That was about it, though.

[Critic 1]

I mean, he's intellectually dishonest. He's a clever and dishonest sophist.

[Nick Geyer]

A sophist is someone who makes BS arguments that sound smart just to win debates.

[Heath Druzen]

Doug obviously doesn't agree with that assessment. He does say he honed his debating skills in Nick's classes.

[Doug Wilson]

Nick was talking about all the things that interested me, but I was coming at it from a very different perspective. And so I gained a lot.

[Heath Druzen]

In the end. Doug never did open that Christian bookstore because he'd polished another skill. While Doug was at University of Idaho, he was also preaching to about 30 college kids and young families in a congregation he called Faith Fellowship. He began as the group's song leader, but took over preaching duties when the pastor abruptly left. Doug never looked back.

[Doug Wilson]

So I graduated. I was the pastor of this church. We didn't really have any formal structure or building or anything to speak of, so I couldn't really get away to go to seminary. I took one summer off and took some seminary courses. And I decided, well, I'm going to have to get on the job training. I'm going to just have to read like crazy.

[Heath Druzen]

Doug says the congregation quickly grew to two or 300 members. It eventually changed its name to Community Evangelical Fellowship. They drifted from venue to venue that includes Moscow's East City Park, a Catholic church after morning Mass, and even an auto garage.

[Doug Wilson]

I remember joking one time saying, we're the only church in North America where you could come to church, find a Rainier beer truck in the sanctuary, and not be surprised. Yeah, spiritual alignment.

[Heath Druzen]

This would eventually become Christchurch. Doug never did go to a traditional seminary. Instead, he continued with all that theological reading. And that's when he started getting exposed to ideas he hadn't necessarily considered. Growing up as a Southern Baptist in 1985, he became a post millennial. That means he believes the world will largely convert to Christianity before Jesus return. Three years later, Doug identified as a Calvinist. Now he believes that before people are born, God chooses if they'll go to heaven or hell. Importantly, it also includes a particular view of God's role in earthly affairs.

[Doug Wilson]

Calvinism holds that God is exhaustively sovereign over all human affairs. The hairs of our head are numbered. The number of hairs on the yellow dog's back going down the street. God knows the name of every one of them, every autumn leaf that falls off of every tree.

[Heath Druzen]

Those ideas helped shape Doug's church and his writings, and then he started wading into American history, specifically slavery, and what he said almost cost him everything. And it continues to dog him.

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[Heath Druzen]

Buying should be back in 1996, Doug Wilson Co authored a booklet called Southern Slavery As It Was. Jimmy and I both read it. Doug's booklet downplays the evils of American slavery and demonizes abolitionists. It paints the north as the aggressor in the Civil War.

[Nick Geyer]

It flew under the radar for years, but about seven years later, in 2003, the booklet started circulating around Moscow. Doug was helping organize a Neo Confederate conference at University of Idaho, and he was touting Southern slavery as it was. Nick Guyer, Doug's philosophy professor and friendly sparring partner. He says both the booklet and the conference got bad reactions.

[Critic 1]

The mood of the town was outrage. I think many people in the community, most of the Christians, were aghast that we had such an author in our midst.

[Heath Druzen]

Doug co authored the piece with Steve Wilkins, a pastor and founder of the Neo Confederate White Supremacist Group League of the South. League of the south wants, among many other things, the south to be an independent state run by white Christians. Southern slavery as it was reads as a bizarre defense of slavery, the most shameful period in American history. In one of the most quoted sections, Doug and his co author say slavery in the south was not an adversarial.

[Nick Geyer]

Relationship because of its dominantly patriarchal character. It was a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence. There has never been a multiracial society which has existed with such mutual intimacy and harmony in the history of the world.

[Heath Druzen]

Ah, yes, a racially harmonious society where one race is enslaved and the other is running plantations. As you might imagine, a lot of people thought this take was bullshit, and Nick took action.

[Critic 1]

I didn't want to have anything to do with Doug Wilson, but when this came out, I had to do something.

[Heath Druzen]

So Nick says he led the charge on publicizing what Doug had written. He got people organized, raised money for a full page ad in the local paper.

[Nick Geyer]

Why did you feel like you had to lead the charge?

[Critic 1]

Because I feel responsible in a way for this person, this student of ours.

[Heath Druzen]

The local paper took Doug to task, saying he was defending slavery. Hundreds of University of Idaho students protested. It was captured in that documentary My Town. The presidents of both University of Idaho and nearby Washington State University condemned it. Nationally known slavery scholars blasted the booklet's claims. One of them was Peter Wood, who wrote one of the most influential historical books on slavery. He compared Doug's views on slavery to those of Holocaust deniers. When things blew up, Doug hosted a town hall in Moscow to answer questions about the controversy. It didn't go great. This is also from the documentary My Town, where a woman brings up Logos, the K through 12 school Doug founded. This is a picture of the fourth.

[Critic 1]

Grade classroom which they celebrate Robert and Lee's birthday.

[Heath Druzen]

Now you tell me they don't celebrate Abraham Lincoln's birthday.

[Critic 1]

Now how come?

[Advertiser 2]

How come?

[Heath Druzen]

That is. It's a little hard to hear, but the speaker is asking why Logos celebrates the birthday of Confederate General Robert E. Lee. A man on stage with Doug quickly cuts her off.

[Critic 1]

This is not the place for this kind of question. And these kind of.

[Heath Druzen]

You're afraid for what I have to say. And you know what? Sarah Bader was a teen in Moscow during the controversy. She briefly attended Christchurch and was a student at Logos. She says she left the school in part because Doug Wilson's slavery ideas were incorporated into lessons.

[Advertiser 1]

He wants to rewrite history and whitewash all these issues, and that's damaging for the whole nation.

[Heath Druzen]

The backlash was such that Doug did something he almost never does. He changed his tune, at least a little bit, and temporarily. The booklet, Southern Slavery as It Was, reads crystal clear as a defense of slavery. It paints abolitionists and the north as the bad guys. It lays out a biblical case for the practice, referencing Ephesians 6. 5. Quote, slaves obey your earthly masters with respect and fear and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ, unquote. But during the controversy, Wilson declared that slavery was sinful. He never apologized for what he wrote, though. And even today, he doesn't disavow the booklet. He still downplays the awfulness of slavery. You're making it sound like it wasn't as bad as people think.

[Doug Wilson]

No, it wasn't as bad as people. Right. Yeah. I was wanting to represent it as a normal social evil. Right. So. But I'm. I'm not a fan of slavery.

[Heath Druzen]

A normal social evil. In Doug's world, that typically applies to adultery or maybe theft. It's weird to have to say this, but there's obviously Nothing normal about 10 million people being enslaved in a genocidal campaign. Another aspect of the booklet that disturbed people was the biblical defense of slavery.

[Nick Geyer]

Quote, christians who owned slaves in the south were on firm scriptural ground. And then it goes on to say, provided he owns them in conformity to Christ's laws. For such situations, the Bible is clear that Christians may own slaves, end quote.

[Heath Druzen]

So I asked Doug, would it be legal in a Christian America, though? Because you do talk about the biblical case, Biblical allowance for slavery in that booklet.

[Doug Wilson]

Yeah. There's two kinds of slavery. Okay. There's the slavery you have in the Old Testament under Moses, under the law of Moses, where the Hebrews, following the.

[Heath Druzen]

Law of God, had. I don't want to gloss over this big thing you're probably yelling at your speakers about right now. He sure takes a long time to get to what should be a clear no.

[Doug Wilson]

So it was a Christian means of subverting the pagan form of slavery. So in a Christian republic, would we reboot slavery? No.

[Heath Druzen]

But would it be allowed?

[Doug Wilson]

No.

[Heath Druzen]

Okay. It would be illegal.

[Doug Wilson]

Yeah.

[Heath Druzen]

Okay. Okay. Just. Just to be clear, Doug thinks the criticism he got from a lot of his neighbors was unfair.

[Doug Wilson]

There are people who are hostiles. They're. I call them intoleristas. They don't want to hear anything, and nothing you say is going to change anything.

[Heath Druzen]

Intoleristas. That's a term Doug has used over and over as a sledgehammer against his opponents. They are the intolerant ones, he says. Nick Geier, the universities, the local paper, the protesters, all of them. And to be sure, local protesters wanted Doug run out of town. In the end, though, Doug just stayed and kind of doubled down. And Nick Geyer says it worked well.

[Critic 1]

For the same reason that Trump's scandal seems to have increased his credibility with his base. Right, right. And I think the same dynamic may have been operating with Christ Church. You don't dare criticize our charismatic preacher, something like that. So. And Doug was clever to come, come back with, just like Trump does, calling us intoleristas. Now, we wore that as a badge of honor. But still, that had an effect of identifying his enemies, putting a label on them, and maybe that had some effect and discrediting us. I don't know.

[Heath Druzen]

That gets at how Doug has risen. Never apologize, rarely back down. Like Nick says, in those ways, he was kind of Trump before Trump. Not that Doug particularly likes Trump, though he hates liberals much more. Doug didn't just weather the storm, he thrived afterward. His church grew. His network of schools grew to tens of thousands of students. His media empire started churning out influential books, homeschool materials, and streaming series. The slavery controversy seemed to teach Doug a lesson. He learned to lean into criticism. He even created a page on his website called Controversy Library. There he'd respond to the many, many criticisms people have. We'll dig deeper into those later this season.

[Doug Wilson]

We've had a number of controversies, maybe five big controversies over the years, and in every one of them, the church has grown. It's just. It's like a. It's strange.

[Nick Geyer]

Why do you think that is, that it continue to grow following these controversies?

[Doug Wilson]

Well, I'm. First, I would want to attribute it to the blessing of God. But what are the sort of horizontal reasons or the instruments, instrumental reasons for it? I think it's because people are hungry for definition and leadership, and they don't like living in a relativistic fog. And when there's sort of a clarion call or this is the. This is the truth of God. The apostle Paul says, if the bugle blows indistinctly, nobody gets ready for battle. And a lot of evangelicals are tired of the smudgy, smudgy winsomeness that characterizes much of evangelical leadership.

[Heath Druzen]

If there's anything Doug is not, it's smudgy or winsome, which alludes to childlike charm and innocence. Had to look that one up. Anyway, Doug's approach has been effective, and Nick has some heartache about his role in all of this.

[Critic 1]

He's a graduate from our department and we should take responsibility for that. Now that's a strange thing to say, you know, that he's a free person. But it became an embarrassment for us. So that bright young man I saw in my classes had that basic intelligence that he used to great advantage in terms of being a national phenomenon.

[Heath Druzen]

Next time on Extremely American. Onward Christian Soldiers. Doug Wilson says the patriarchy is great for women. Some women would like a word.

[Advertiser 1]

He's creating these perfect victims that are completely unable to say no. They don't know how to say no. They're completely naive.

[Heath Druzen]

Extremely American was created by me, Heath Druzen. This season was written and reported by me and James Dawson. Story editing by Morgan Springer, mixing and sound engineering by James Dawson. Fact checking by Naomi Barr. Additional reporting and special thanks to Mary Ellen Pitney, who was a big help early on and throughout the project. Shout out to Madeline Beck, Sasha Woodruff and Rachel Cohen, who lent us their ears while we were writing this season. Music from Artlist Boise State Public Radio is our partner for this podcast with distribution by the NPR Network. This podcast is made possible through a grant from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. If you're enjoying this season, check out season one of Extremely American. It's an inside look at armed militias and how they're influencing mainstream politics. Thanks for listening.

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