Onward Christian Soldiers: What Trump's Victory Means For Christian Nationalism

Summary

Extremely American: Season 2, Episode - "Onward Christian Soldiers: What Trump's Victory Means For Christian Nationalism"

Release Date: January 29, 2025

In this compelling episode of NPR’s Extremely American, hosts Heath Druzen and James Dawson delve deep into the intricate web of Christian nationalism in the United States, particularly in the context of Donald Trump’s re-election as President. The episode, titled "Onward Christian Soldiers: What Trump's Victory Means For Christian Nationalism," explores the movement's ambitions to transform American democracy into a theocratic system, thereby diminishing the rights of the majority.

Introduction: The Rising Influence of Christian Nationalism [00:28 - 01:24]

Heath Druzen opens the episode by addressing the significant shift following Trump’s second presidential victory. He highlights Trump's embrace of figures associated with Project 2025, a comprehensive white paper advocating for a drastic reorganization of government infused with Christian nationalist ideals. Druzen states:

“It means the Christian nationalists we talked to for the podcast are a lot closer to getting their allies and their influence into the highest echelons of power.” (01:10)

This alignment signifies a pivotal moment where Christian nationalists are gaining unprecedented access to governmental power, potentially steering the nation towards a theocratic governance model.

Heath Druzen’s Journey into Covering Extremism [02:15 - 06:06]

James Dawson initiates the discussion by probing Heath Druzen’s path into covering extremism. Druzen recounts his two-decade association with Idaho, starting as a general reporter for The Statesman in 2005. His pivotal shift towards extremism coverage began with the “Guns in America” project in 2018, where he focused on the militia movement, particularly Idaho’s 3-percenters and figures like Ammon Bundy.

“I got to know all of those folks and to my surprise, they actually talked to me quite a bit and I really got to kind of know them and their movement.” (04:45)

Heath explains how the events of January 6th amplified his podcast’s reach, transitioning into an expanded season that centers on Christian nationalism.

Historical Context of Extremism in Northern Idaho and Eastern Washington [06:03 - 08:55]

Heath provides a historical overview of extremism in Northern Idaho and Eastern Washington, citing the Aryan Nations’ activities in the 80s and 90s and key events like Ruby Ridge. He emphasizes the resilience of local communities in repelling extremist groups:

“You got to give a lot of credit to the communities up here for making them feel unwelcome. I think that was really powerful.” (07:00)

He introduces the Redoubt movement, a more recent phenomenon aiming to establish conservative Christian societies outside governmental oversight, attracting individuals seeking autonomy and alignment with their beliefs.

The Redoubt Movement and Its Connection to Christian Nationalism [11:19 - 12:36]

Druzen differentiates the Redoubt movement from broader Christian nationalism, noting significant overlaps:

“Plenty of readouters are Christian nationalists. Not all Christian nationalists are readouters, and not all readouters are Christian nationalists.” (11:55)

He explains that the Redoubt movement seeks to create an anti-government, parallel society based on conservative Christian values, attracting followers from states like California who desire autonomy and alignment with their beliefs.

Influence of Doug Wilson and the Christian Industrial Complex [14:03 - 21:43]

A central figure in the episode is Doug Wilson, pastor of Christchurch in Moscow, Idaho, and leader of the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches. Druzen describes Wilson’s “Christian industrial complex,” which includes nearly 500 classical Christian schools through the Association of Classical Christian Schools (ACCS).

“He sees these schools as a way to change culture through his students.” (18:25)

Wilson’s strategic use of education to indoctrinate Christian nationalist values positions his enterprises as pivotal tools for cultural transformation. Despite limited local political success, Wilson’s national influence through organizations like the Idaho Family Policy Council signifies a growing impact on Christian nationalist policies.

Impact of Trump’s Re-election and Project 2025 [21:43 - 28:34]

Following Trump’s victory, Druzen discusses Project 2025, a 900-page manifesto advocating for Christian nationalist policies.

“Donald Trump is hiring Project 2025 authors. Russ Vogt’s appointment tells you a lot.” (24:54)

Trump’s appointment of Russ Vogt, an architect of Project 2025, as White House Budget Director underscores the movement's advancing influence. Druzen emphasizes that Trump’s association with Christian nationalists, despite his limited theological knowledge, facilitates the movement’s access to power, integrating their radical ideas into governmental frameworks.

Local and National Dynamics of Christian Nationalism [28:34 - 35:25]

Druzen warns of dual-track influence, where national momentum reinforces state-level agendas. He highlights ongoing legislative efforts in Idaho, such as advocating for mandatory Bible readings in public schools, mirroring actions like Louisiana's display of the Ten Commandments.

“It's important to remember these ideas are broadly unpopular. Christian nationalist ideas about women being subservient... are not things that Americans generally agree with.” (25:19)

He underscores the necessity of civic engagement to counteract Christian nationalist policies, emphasizing voter participation's role in preventing theocratic tendencies.

Interactive Panel Discussion: Community Responses and Challenges [35:19 - 87:54]

The episode transitions to a live discussion with local panelists and audience members, including educators, human rights activists, and religious leaders. Key topics discussed include:

1. Reporting and Surprising Findings [38:08 - 43:55]

Kenton Bird, a retired journalism director, asks Druzen about surprising elements from his reporting. Druzen reveals:

“The big surprise was a lot of frank discussions with Christian nationalists, including ones who tried to convert me.” (38:42)

He also highlights the deeply ingrained patriarchal foundation of Christian nationalists, which Druzen initially underestimated.

2. Education and School Choice [51:21 - 57:26]

James Dawson queries the relationship between classical Christian education and movements challenging public education's hegemony. Druzen asserts that financial incentives, such as voucher systems, play a critical role in promoting private Christian schools over public education.

“They want to completely dismantle the public school system. They think public schools are evil.” (55:37)

3. Dominionism and Political Framing [57:13 - 62:14]

Joanne Manita asks about Dominionism and its political ramifications. Druzen explains Dominionism as the belief that Christianity should govern all societal institutions, effectively advocating for a theocratic state.

“Dominionism means theocracy. If you're not Christian, you don't believe what we do.” (59:00)

He also discusses the challenges of addressing religious freedom claims used to justify restrictive policies.

4. Anti-Semitism and Internal Fractures [76:57 - 86:17]

Audience questions probe the presence of anti-Semitism within Christian nationalism. Druzen acknowledges:

“There is a huge amount of anti-Semitism in Christian nationalism.” (76:57)

He notes internal conflicts, with some factions espousing overt anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi ideologies, creating fractures within the movement.

5. Community Support for Ex-Members [64:48 - 73:22]

Todd Bailey, an English teacher, inquires about supporting individuals leaving extremist churches. Druzen emphasizes the importance of acceptance and non-judgmental support:

“What really was powerful was just being accepted by other people and not being judged.” (64:48)

Strategies for Countering Christian Nationalism [32:55 - 35:25]

Heath Druzen advocates for proactive community engagement, urging citizens to participate in local elections, support independent journalism, and remain vigilant against extremist policies.

“If you don't turn out, you're not going to win.” (35:13)

Conclusion: The Path Forward [87:06 - End]

In his closing remarks, Druzen commends the engaged and informed community for addressing Christian nationalism openly. He encourages listeners to remain active and involved, stressing that preserving democracy requires collective effort against the theocratic ambitions of extremist movements.

“We are not living in a theocracy. We are still a democracy.” (29:10)

Notable Quotes:

• Heath Druzen: “Without that, everything falls apart.” (02:30)
• Heath Druzen: “Everybody has agency. We are not living in a theocracy.” (29:10)
• Heath Druzen: “They're very patient with getting those ideas out there. And now we're really seeing them take root.” (21:43)
• Heath Druzen: “These ideas are going to start happening under a much bigger spotlight than it ever has.” (25:19)

Key Takeaways:

1. Project 2025 and Political Influence: Trump's re-election has significantly bolstered the Christian nationalist movement’s access to government, with Project 2025 serving as a blueprint for their theocratic ambitions.

2. Influence of Doug Wilson: Doug Wilson’s educational and media enterprises are pivotal in spreading Christian nationalist ideologies, positioning education as a primary tool for cultural change.

3. Community Resilience: Despite historical and ongoing attempts by extremist groups to impose their agendas, local communities in Northern Idaho exhibit resilience and active resistance against theocratic shifts.

4. Need for Civic Engagement: Proactive participation in local elections and support for independent journalism are essential in countering the rise of Christian nationalism and preserving democratic principles.

5. Internal Challenges within the Movement: Anti-Semitism and ideological fractures present vulnerabilities within the Christian nationalist movement, potentially hindering its unified advancement.

Conclusion

This episode of Extremely American offers an in-depth analysis of the resurgence and entrenchment of Christian nationalism in the United States, highlighting both its historical roots and contemporary developments. Through Heath Druzen’s insightful reporting and interactive panel discussions, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the movement’s strategies, influences, and the critical importance of community vigilance in safeguarding democracy.

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This structured summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, notable quotes with timestamps, and providing a clear, comprehensive overview for listeners who haven't tuned in.

Transcript

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[James Dawson]

Hey, it's James Dawson.

[Heath Druzen]

From Boise State Public Radio welcoming you to a bonus episode of Extremely American Onward Christian Soldiers. So a big thing obviously happened since the season dropped. You know the thing Donald Trump was elected president again. After his victory, Trump embraced people connected to Project 2025. That's a 900 page white paper that calls for a radical reorganization of government and enshrining some Christian nationalist ideas as official policy. It means the Christian nationalists we talked to for the podcast are a lot closer to getting their allies and their influence into the highest echelons of power. Host Heath Druzen traveled back to Moscow in December to give a talk about Christian nationalism and what the election might mean for the movement. It took place at a community hall called the 1912 Center.

Well, first of all, thanks so much for coming out. It's really gratifying to see so many people come out to come out for this. And just the engagement I've gotten from across the country, but certainly no more per capita, I think, than Moscow. Yeah, I've had a lot of feedback and I, I appreciate all of it. A lot of it was very positive. Certainly got some, some critical stuff, too. I welcome all of it. And yeah, I know, I know people have things to do and it's a dark and stormy night out there. So very cool to see a crowd like this. And, and I really appreciate it and look forward to, to some, some great questions.

[Panelist]

Great. Thank you. Heath, why don't we start by you telling us how you got here? How did you end up in Idaho making a living talking to militia leaders and Christian activists?

[Heath Druzen]

So my time in Idaho actually started, I'm dating myself here, but almost 20 years ago. I was a little cub reporter and I came to work for The Statesman in 2005, not covering extremism. In fact, I was sort of the green reporter at the time. So I covered whatever fell through the cracks at odd hours. And that was one of my early stints in journalism. I kind of fell in love with Idaho then, but I went overseas and as you said, I reported in Iraq and Afghanistan for a while. So I left Idaho and then I came back in 2018 to do a project called Guns in America, which it was 10 NPR affiliates around the country spending two years examining the role of guns in American life. And so that's when I really started covering extremism because one of my focus areas was looking at the militia movement. And I chose that in part because the militia movement obviously has a kind of a stronghold in Idaho, but I also thought it was starting to kind of matter more politically. So that's kind of how I got into it. And I'm sure a lot of people are familiar here with the 3 percenters. They're very strong in Idaho. I'm sure you know the name Ammon Bundy. So I kind of got to know all of those folks and to my surprise, they, they actually talked to me quite a bit and I really got to kind of know them and their movement and it became more and more important as Covid happened and as the, the, you know, pushback on Covid and restrictions happened. So, so yeah, I got to know the movement and then the program ended, Guns in America. Excuse me. And, you know, I was thinking about what to do next, and I thought it would be a good time to take a deeper look into the militia movement. So that was season one of Extremely American. It was really a spin off of that reporting. And that's when I really spent a lot of time with militia leaders across the country in Idaho and out of it, you know, I went to a training camp in Pennsylvania and just really kind of went on a wild ride. All of this was before January 6th, so the timing ended up being really strange. And then January 6th happened and the podcast came out and it kind of blew up because of that. And I even actually got a call from the January 6th commission. They were asking for a, like a sort of a debriefing on the militia movement. So that's, that's, that's a long story of how I got into it, but it really was going to be a one off thing. And January 6th happened and there was a pretty big audience and it ended up spinning into season two, which.

[Panelist]

So it turned into a life adventure for you.

[Heath Druzen]

Yes. An ongoing one. Yeah.

[Panelist]

And can you focus a little on the recent history of extremism in Northern Idaho, Eastern Washington?

[Heath Druzen]

Yeah. So I, I'm, I'm not going to spend too much time talking about the obvious beginning, but you can't talk extremism here without mentioning the Aryan nations, obviously very active in the 80s and 90s, their compound north of here. There was also the group which is the focus of a movie right now called the Order, who I think kind of fell through the cracks of history a little bit. Maybe not up here, but I Mean, you know, the Order, I think, was kind of an important group because they were true neo Nazi terrorists who committed a lot of violence, including murder. And I think really, really freaked a lot of people out up here. But, but yeah, the Aryan nations, they came up here trying to kind of start a white ethno state until they got kicked out. And you know, certainly you got to give a lot of credit to the communities up here for, for making them feel unwelcome. I think that, I think that was really powerful. I was not here for that, obviously. But there's also Ruby Ridge, which was connected to the Christian identity movement in the Aryan nations. And obviously that was a real rallying cry for a lot of people. And I think that put North Idaho on the map for some people who might not have been aware of it. But yeah, it's. There's been a long history of extremism here. We're going to get into the Redoubt movement, or the Redoubt movement, depending how you say it, a little bit later. That's a much more recent phenomenon, but certainly there's roots in all of those things where essentially people see North Idaho as a place where they can kind of make their own way and be against the government without the government gaze. But we'll get into more of that later. But, but yes, that's, that's kind of the early, the, the. The early history up to. Up to now.

[Panelist]

And why do you. You touched on it, but is there more about why you think they saw this as a good place to get started?

[Heath Druzen]

Yeah, I think the Aryan Nation saw it as a place that was pretty white and pretty remote. And I think, you know, they thought they'd find a friendly reception here, and I don't think they did find as friendly reception as they wanted to. More recently though, I think the, the readout movement, which is essentially a movement that wants to create a, A kind of conservative Christian society. Some of them say Judeo Christian society, but it's pretty exclusive, that kind of operates outside of the purview of. Of governments. James Wesley Rawls is the guy who really got it started. And it seems like an old movement, but I think he really only started writing about it in 2011, if I'm right. Yeah, it's a movement basically to create kind of a parallel society, a kind of almost like an anti government government. And I think they've been really successful. And what I, what people in that movement see up here is they see a place where, well, less and less so now, but certainly where you could used to be able to get land relatively cheap, where you could go live off the grid if you want, and where you can kind of be by yourself and do what you want. And if you don't want to follow the rules, there's not a lot of people who are going to be there policing you, figuratively and literally. So I think, I mean, that's the thing. I think it's a big part of the movement. They see it as a place that's already conservative and where you can kind of disappear. And I do think that movement actually has been pretty successful. I think they've recruited quite a few people, especially from blue states. A lot of folks from California have come here and answered that call. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's. It's. I think. I think this place has become a haven partly because there's space here to kind of be out of the gaze.

[Panelist]

So has this redoubt movement, is that the same as Christian nationalism or has it led to Christian nationalism? How does that bring us to Moscow in the Christian nationalist movement here?

[Heath Druzen]

So I would say. I would say it's not. It's not necessarily Christian nationalist, but they often swim in the same waters and plenty of readouters are Christian nationalists. Not all Christian nationalists are readouters, and not all readouters are Christian nationalists. But I think they often find common cause and certainly a very fundamentalist Christian sort of foundation is part of the redoubt movement. So there's cross currents. But I do think what's happening in Moscow, while has some connections, is pretty distinct. And I will say Christian nationalism, as we're certainly seeing now, is a much broader movement than North Idaho, even if there's kind of a stronghold here.

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[Panelist]

So how does a pastor of a fundamentalist church in Moscow relate to this whole enterprise?

[Heath Druzen]

Right, so at the risk of over explaining things to a local crowd here who's very well aware of this, Doug Wilson is the pastor of Christchurch, but, you know, he leads a much bigger organization. So Christchurch, a fundamentalist Calvinist church with some real Christian nationalist ideology, is part of Doug Wilson's larger enterprise, the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches, which is a nationwide Calvinist church group that's got congregations in almost every state. Now, the other reason Doug Wilson, I mean, so the reason Doug Wilson is increasingly important for people well outside of Moscow is because he's built what my co reporter, Jimmy Dawson termed a Christian industrial complex, which I thought was a pretty clever, accurate way to put it, because he's got this national group of churches which now reaches coast to coast. Maybe more importantly, he has a education empire that reaches coast to coast. So he's got nearly 500 schools in what he calls a classical Christian model. It's the accs, the association of Classical Christian Schools. And Doug Wilson founded that. And it's become. It's become probably the most important classical Christian school network in the country. And what he see, well, in his own words, he sees these as munitions factories. He likes to use war terminology. So that means the students are the munitions. And he really sees these schools as a way to change culture through his students. And I think it is effective. And obviously you have new St. Andrews College, which is here, which is where he hopes those students will end up. And I think that's been a really powerful tool, this education tool, and that extends to homeschooling materials that are along the lines of his education empire. So it's a fundamentalist Christian education, very much rejecting sort of modern mores of society where we've become more accepting, especially of LGBTQ Americans. There's a real focus on, I guess you'd call it an unapologetic American history, where, you know, slavery is kind of underplayed. And the country, the founding of the country is sort of held up as pure and, you know, without much. Without much fault. The other important thing is he's also got a media empire, can impress. He churns out a lot of books. They're all in this sort of fundamentalist Christian mold. And he's also. Him and his allies have a kind of a burgeoning media empire, popular streaming shows, podcasts. He's been really good at creating this sort of almost parallel universe where you can be enveloped in the. The crack accs can impress world and it can kind of meet all of your sort of education, spiritual and. And even entertainment needs.

[Panelist]

So this local effort has focused on worship, for sure, in the Christchurch community and family and school and the school enterprise. How does all this lead into or connect with the political scene?

[Heath Druzen]

Right, so it's, it's, it's sort of. It's not obvious on the surface because we're talking about education and we're talking about churches and we're talking about media. But what Doug Wilson wants to do, according to Doug Wilson, is change society. He wants to change culture, he wants to change society, and he wants to create essentially an American theocracy. And so the way he's been influential is actually not through elections. In fact, they've tried that route locally and been pretty unsuccessful. Yeah, they haven't really done very well in local elections, partly because Moscow is just not a very conservative place. And the voters have spoken on that. But what they've done locally is they've certainly bought a lot of property locally, as a lot of people here know. So they've increased their footprint here nationally, or I should say on the state level and nationally they've been pretty influential kind of thought leaders. I think we're going to talk about it a little bit later, but the Idaho Family Policy Council, that has been pretty influential and kind of under the radar in Idaho in pushing legislation at the state level, where I think Wilson and his allies have been really increasingly influential at the national level, is in this. In this Christian nationalist movement that's sort of crystallized on both social media and alternative streaming programs. A lot of people in that world read Doug Wilson. I mean, he's written dozens and dozens of books and he comes up all the time. His thoughts have really kind of like percolated up through the Christian nationalist community. And they have an annual convention, sort of a most. A Christian nationalist festival now called Fight Laugh Feast, which I attended, which I attended last year. And man, it. I mean, Christian Nationalist leaders from around the country came to compare notes on how to make America more Christian. And Doug Wilson was at the center of it all. He's really respected in that world and he's been around longer than most. Right. He's played the long game and so he's really built up his influence that way. So it's kind of indirect and it's kind of intangible a lot of the time. But he has really been patient with getting those ideas out there. And now we're really seeing them kind of take root with, with the next generation of Christian nationalists who are very ambitious and very emboldened right now.

[Panelist]

I think with the recent election, we've seen more national media attention to maybe some of the specifics of Christian nationalism. And so with this recent election, how do you see Christian nationalism playing into the broader national political scene?

[Heath Druzen]

I think this election was a wake up call for anyone who is sort of not convinced that Christian nationalism would be influential. I had a lot of skepticism when I was working on this. Not people who didn't sort of weren't turned off by these ideas, but who just weren't convinced that Christian nationalist ideas were ever going to go anywhere. So, yeah, right now, I think everyone's heard of Project 2025. It's this 900 page white paper on radically changing government. And in it are a lot of Christian nationalist ideals, a lot of ideas on how to make Christianity more a part of public life and more a part of official government doctrine. Donald Trump during the campaign tried to distance himself from that, said, oh, they have nothing to do with me, which was probably a savvy campaign move. It obviously wasn't true because as soon as the, as soon as he won the election, he started hiring Project 2025 authors. And he's nominated the architect of Project 2025, Russ Vogt, to come back to his old job as the White House budget director. So right there, that tells you a lot. Donald Trump himself, you know, whether or not you can call him a Christian nationalist. I mean, I don't know that the man has read the Bible and I know it sounds funny, I'm not even making fun. I'm sort of just stating it's something that I think is fairly obvious that he's not very, certainly not well versed, we'll put it that way. But he's very happy to court that crowd and I think give them a lot of what they're asking for. So, yeah, he's Hiring Project 2025 authors. Russ Vogt, Tom Homan. I'VE written about Pete Hegseth, who is not necessarily a Project 20 2020, Project 2025 author, but he is in. He goes to a church that's part of Doug Wilson's association and has his own Christian nationalist ideas, as articulated in a book he wrote that's literally called American Crusade. So that's a long way of saying I think people should be ready for some of these more radical ideas, getting an audience at the highest levels of power.

[Panelist]

So the movement has filtered upward or worked its way upward now that there is a more political visibility to it. How will that work backwards to affect Christian nationalism at the local level, like here?

[Heath Druzen]

That. Yeah, that's a really good question. So what's going to be interesting is this is all going to start happening under a much bigger spotlight than it ever has because it's going to start getting real for people when they start talking about national policy. And I say this a lot, but it's important to remember these ideas are broadly unpopular. You know, Christian ideas about women needing to be subservient or Christian nationalist ideas, I should say Christian nationalist ideas about women being subservient, ideas about women losing the right to vote, which, by the way, is a very broadly agreed upon Christian nationalist principle. You know, these are not things that Americans generally agree with. Even conservative Americans, they're not on board with a lot of these radical ideas. So as it gets a spotlight, it'll be interesting to see because I think there's going to be a lot of pushback and I'm not sure what's going to happen. You know, Donald Trump doesn't like bad press, and maybe that will start putting a dent in it, but maybe not. He also knows that, you know, this is a crowd that has supported him pretty ardently. How will it filter back to the local level? Well, I think in a way it's almost separate tracks, but I think if there's momentum at the national level, then that's going to filter down to the state level. I talked about Idaho, Christian nationalist lobbyists. They're going to be really active this year, and I think they're emboldened by what's happening nationally. They're already talking about a bill that would require Bible reading in public schools. So that's public schools. That would be. So Louisiana is kind of sort of famous for putting the Ten Commandments in every classroom. I feel like Bible like mandatory Bible readings. That would probably be the most radical bill in the country. And I think that would really be a blueprint. We'll see what Happens. But yeah, I think these things build on each other. Right. If, if things fizzle nationally, maybe that'll give moderate Republicans in Idaho a little more backbone if they don't agree with this stuff. But I think what you're seeing in Idaho is as the momentum builds on Christian nationalist legislation, Christian nationalist ideals, conservatives who might not agree with it don't feel as comfortable pushing back against it because they're worried they're going to get painted as unchristian and they're worried that they're going to get a primary opponent. And sometimes they're right.

[Panelist]

So the momentum has built and as more media coverage exists, there seems to be almost an inexorable march towards some of these concepts. And especially here, people have seen the progression over years. So what do you say to people that feel a bit of hopelessness about dealing with this kind of movement?

[Heath Druzen]

Well, well, here we are talking about it. That's one thing. Right. I mean, this is, this is still America. We can speak freely about this. We are a sharply divided country. But what I would basically say, what I would say to people who are all about Christian nationalism or people who are all about not having Christian nationalism is whichever side of the fence you're on, I would say now is the time for action. Yeah. Because things are moving fast in the country. But, you know, everybody has agency. We are not living in a theocracy. In fact, we're talking about Christchurch in Moscow. Christchurch doesn't have any direct political power here right now. Right. They certainly have a lot more influence than they used to in town through money and land. But yeah, you know, everyone has agency in this country. It's still a democracy, even though Christian nationalists certainly want less democracy and they're not shy about that. But these wild swings from. I don't think it's going to happen to. It's inevitable. It's somewhere in the middle. It's more likely than a lot of people are comfortable with that Christian nationalist ideals are going to get some official stamp of approval, but nothing's inevitable. I think inevitability happens when people get complacent. Whatever your beliefs are, if you just sort of, if you just sort of stay home and go, eh, like it's gonna happen, well, then it probably will happen. One thing I've seen is that activists on the extremes, be it Christian nationalists or militia members, the anti vaccine movement at the height of the pandemic, there is a motivation gap between them and people who oppose their ideas. Extremism is not popular. I keep saying that. Right. But it's not broadly popular. It's more popular than a lot of folks in this room probably are comfortable with. But what I will say is that they tend to outwork their opposition. They tend to be more dogged about it and they play the long game. They're very patient. And I will say I think folks who oppose them understandably have lives, have bills to pay, they've got leap to do. And I get it, that's reality. Whereas a lot of folks in the Christian nationalist movement, they have those things too. But a lot of times they're more centered around their ideology. So that is what I, that is what I would say. I do see sort of a motivation gap between people who are kind of on the hardcore extremes and people who are more in the middle and who would like to see know, a more inclusive society and more of a continuation of our, our liberal democracy as, as most Americans know it.

[Panelist]

So given that, what have you seen that might be effective in, in countering Christian nationalist movement or local movements?

[Heath Druzen]

Well, as a journalist, I'm not here to lead an activism class. Not my role. So I'll say that I'm not here to defeat anybody. But what I have seen in my reporting, I highlighted this in season one. What's been sort of interesting is that there are some folks who, some lawyers who have found success in civil court against some extremist actions, more so in the militia movement. But that's kind of been interesting to see some folks kind of trying to hit people in their pocketbooks. And that has been pretty successful. Civil court, obviously if you're suing somebody, the threshold for proving your case is less than criminal court, where it's beyond a reasonable doubt. But you know, I not breaking any news here, but obviously if you don't vote, you're not, you're not helping. So yeah, you know, I mean being engaged, being civically engaged, it's such a simple thing. But that's really important. Whatever you want, if you don't want Christian nationalism, if you don't want library book bans, and then you don't go out in a low turnout election to vote for your library boards and your school boards, well then you might not get the result you're looking for. If you do want Christian nationalism, if you do want library book bans, then you should go vote in your local elections too. And what I will say is they always do. They definitely. Yeah, that comes back to the motivation gap, right? I mean if you, you're not necessarily going to win, but you're definitely not going to win if you don't turn out.

[Panelist]

Thank you, Heath. That concludes the first few minutes of our discussion tonight.

[Heath Druzen]

After the talk, he took questions first from a panel of Moscow residents and then from the audience.

[Panelist]

Let me introduce our panelists, and we're going to have them bring their chairs up on stage, and then they will question Heath on some issues. Todd Bailey. Todd, would you stand facing the crowd for a moment? Todd is an English teacher at Moscow High School. This is his 10th year in that position. In addition to his education credentials, he has a master's degree in political science. Kenton Bird. Everyone knows Kenton, but Kenton's a journalist who served as a reporter and editor in several communities throughout the state. And throughout his career, he taught journalism at Colorado State University before becoming director of the School of Journalism and Mass Media at the University of Idaho. He retired in 2023, and he lives in Moscow with his wife, John Jerry Saylor, an artist and writer. Joanne Manita also probably needs no introduction. Joanne is founder and current chair of the Layoff County Human Rights Task Force, whose mission is to ensure a safe and inclusive community for opposing bigotry and discrimination while supporting diversity, respect, justice, and equality. Tom Newhart and his wife, Connie Brum, retired eight years ago and moved from Seattle to Moscow. Between 1980 and 82, Tom was employed as the CEO of a home and hospice organization serving southeastern Washington, and He was the CEO of the Pullman Regional Hospital. Okay. And last, the Reverend Elizabeth. Doctor. Reverend Dr. Elizabeth Stevens has served as the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Palouse Since Night. Since 2012. She received her BA from Yale University and her master's and doctorate from schools in the Graduate Theological Union at UC Berkeley. She loves to hike, sing, and dance, but not much room for dancing here. So with that, we'll rotate among our panelists and give them each about five to seven minutes to quiz Heath, and then we'll move on to the next panelist. So let's start with Kenton Burke.

[Heath Druzen]

I hope I pass.

[Kenton Bird]

Heath, could you take us behind the scenes with the reporting of this extensive podcast? You and your co producer, James Dawson and the rest of your team spent hundreds of hours talking to people in Moscow, including Doug Wilson and other church leaders. What was one thing that surprised you in your reporting? Was there something that was not visible on the surface but became apparent by the end of your reporting process?

[Heath Druzen]

Yeah, we did. We spent a ton of time reporting this out, and one of the great things was I got to know this awesome community much better than I ever had before. And there were A couple things that were surprising. The first big surprise was that almost everybody talked to us. I was very concerned going into this that, well, first of all, I thought Doug Wilson might not talk to us. Now I don't give people veto power over the story like that, so we were going to plow ahead no matter what. But I wanted to hear from them. So the big surprise was almost everyone on the Christian nationalist side of things talked to us. Couple exceptions, but Doug Wilson spent hours with us, a lot of follow ups, which I appreciate, and most of the folks in his orbit did the same thing. So surprise number one was a lot of frank discussions with Christian nationalists, including ones who, one who tried to convert me and, and unsuccessfully and you know, another who said into my microphone that my worldview is bad for society and I shouldn't be able to hold office. Which as a journalist I was like, this is great tape. This is amazing. As a human, I was a little, a little less excited. So yeah, it really was just the stuff I was getting from people, the stuff people were willing to say to my microphone was way more forward than I expected. One big thing for me that I didn't fully appreciate going into it was I knew that these guys believed in patriarchal ideas. I knew that they believed that, you know, that the husband should, should lead their, their wife. Their wife. What I didn't fully understand going into it was how foundational that was to their belief system and how that really, like patriarchy is the pillar of everything that flows out of, like everything flows out of patriarchy for them. Without that, everything falls apart. So I didn't quite understand that that was sort of the idea, but it quickly became apparent. So, so yeah, that was. I, I learned a lot in this. You know, I'm not even, I'm not pretending to be a Christian nationalist expert now, but going into it, I certainly was not.

[Kenton Bird]

Just a quick follow up. Looking back now at the first two seasons of the podcast, is there something that ended up on the digital cutting room floor that in hindsight, wish you wish had made it into one of the podcasts?

[Heath Druzen]

The conversion attempt that, that probably should have, that probably should have made it in something that ended up on the cutting room floor? I mean, so we, we, we actually went to Kentucky for, for Fight Laugh Feast, the annual Christian nationalist conference put on by, by some Christchurch allies. And there were so many interesting things at this 500 foot Noah's Ark and like inside that we couldn't get to and the Creation Museum, like even petting kangaroos outside of the Ark, although I think that did make it in. So, so yeah, I mean, I mean, we had a really good problem. There was a lot of good stuff on the cutting room floor and I wish I could have included it all, but I mean, I even talked to, you know, actually one, I will say one concrete example. I talked to a Canadian pastor who basically fled Canada. They had their own, they had their own protest movement which some people might have seen, like the trucker convoys up there. This guy was at the center of it and he was charged with several crimes and essentially fled Canada and started a, a congregation in Kentucky. And I met him at Fight Laugh Feast and I had a really interesting conversation with him and it just, it just didn't quite fit. But man, I mean, it's, it's kind of a shame because he was a fascinating character. Like, yeah, again, he was willing to leave his country for his beliefs. And right now, well, I don't know about right now, but when I talked to him, he was not going back to Canada for fear of arrest.

[Panelist]

Thank you, Heath. Thank you, Kenton.

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[Panelist]

Turn to Reverend Elizabeth.

[Reverend Elizabeth]

Well, first of all, thank you so much for being here with us. One thing that is really puzzling to me, his ideas are pretty, I mean, is extreme. They're pretty far out there. How did they gain tract nationwide? Do you have any insight into that? And also do you believe that the media attention that Christchurch has gotten from you and from other journalists has accelerated people becoming familiar with his ideas?

[Heath Druzen]

So the first question is why did these exceptions, how do they get the attraction? So I think part of it is Doug Wilson is very good at, he's, he's, entertaining. Even though he's in his 70s, he's. I wouldn't say he's hip, but. But he's. But he's not. But he's not. He's not kind of a. He's not a fogey. Right. He's not like, this isn't the 700 Club. He knows how to connect with people. And he's kind of. He's kind of plugged into this far right, anti establishment kind of feeling now where it's. He's figured out that for some people, traditionalism feels countercultural, and he's really pushed that hard. So I think that has helped, especially. Especially with men and young men. I think they feel like, empowered. They're like, oh, we can just sort of tell it like it is. I'm putting that in quotes. But I think for some people, Doug Wilson's been really effective at making them feel like they can. They can say what's on their mind. And frankly, I mean, look, the patriarchy is pretty good for men. Right? And that's like, some of these, like, these guys are like, oh, well, it sounds like a good deal to me. And like, I don't even have to apologize for it. Yeah. I mean, it's. And I think that's something that people need to take seriously. That especially after this election, I think we've seen the far right be really good. And Doug Wilson's a leader in it, in making it seem countercultural to be traditional, which is weird. It sounds weird, but. But, but, but I think that is a thing. As far as media attention, it's a fair question. Does media attention, you know, get him more followers is really what you're asking? I think. I don't think so, but I think we always. I always think about this when I'm covering radical groups. Is my attention without my attention, would. Would, you know, would they be less popular or would they matter? In Doug Wilson's case, I really do think the answer is I. I'm not. I think the answer is no. I'm not actually getting him word followers. I mean, maybe. I mean, I'm not saying there's nobody out there who, like, here's what I say. And they're like, oh, that sounds interesting to me. But I think he's been growing steadily for decades, and I don't think it'll matter if I do it or not. As far as his organizations. What I do think it does, and I hope it does, is it tells more people who might not know about what he's doing and why it matters, because I do think there's a lot of people out there in the middle, the center right and the center left and basically everything other than the far right, where people don't really know what's happening up here and don't know how important it is because a lot of it has a big audience, but it has an audience in certain spheres where if you don't go down the rabbit holes that go down or you don't live in Moscow. I realize that everybody here notes all these things, but, yeah, if you don't go down those rabbit holes, then you might not be aware of it. And I do think Christian nationalism has taken a lot of people by surprise.

[Reverend Elizabeth]

I'm. I'm curious if you're aware, are there groups or forces or leaders inside evangelical Christianity or conservative Christianity that are opposed to Doug Wilson? And would you recommend or encourage us to kind of are there ways that we can signal, boost those folks?

[Heath Druzen]

The answer is yes. And if you check out Extremely American, available everywhere you find podcasts, the. The final bonus episode. It's a plug, but it's true. There's someone in there who I think will challenge everybody here. Owen Stran, his name spelled like Strachan Strachan. But it's Owen Strand. He's a very conservative leader of a Baptist seminary in the south, and he appeared on a panel that I put together. And he is very against Christian nationalism. He's for a lot of ideas that a lot of people in this room probably won't like either. But he's an interesting dude because he has gone toe to toe with Doug Wilson and gotten a lot of flack for it. So that's one example. But, yeah, there's a lot of people in the evangelical world who don't agree with Christian nationalism. Some of them are conservative, some of them are more liberal. It's a mix. But I would say that Christian nationalism is still unpopular among Christians. Right. And that's the thing I always want to emphasize, and I hope it spoke for itself in the podcast. It is not a podcast about Christians promoting these ideas. It's a podcast about Christian nationalists promoting these ideas. And they do not represent Christianity. They just represent themselves. And I think at odds with a lot of Christians.

[Panelist]

Okay, let's turn to Todd Bailey now.

[James Dawson]

Well, thank you very much for attending this evening. I, too, am delighted you mentioned Doug Wilson's educational empire. And I'm curious if you can comment on movements such as school choice and parental rights and possibly also such things as the disestablishment of the Federal Department of Education, which in my view, as an educator who reads about these things with consistency, I believe that school choice and parental rights are often used by Christian nationalists rather duplicitously to mask the displacement of educational responsibility from public schools to schools such as Doug Wilson. And these would also include his homeschooling materials and so on. And I'm curious if you can comment on the relationship between the classical Christian educational model and this parallel movement to basically challenge the hegemony of public school and offer alternatives which are themselves in most ways antithetical to the values of pluralism and what public education tends to stand for.

[Heath Druzen]

So, in a word, it's. It's money, right? The. And, and, and, and buckle up, Idaho, because vouchers are going to be a huge fight in the legislature this year and we'll see what happens. But yeah, it's money, right? So, so it's. There's a huge ven. Vested interest in voucher systems for schools like Doug Wilson's association of Classical Christian Schools, because if people can take their tax money and keep it and keep it and send it to the, to those schools, and it's going to be a boon for them, there's no question. So I think you can't, you can't look at vouchers and Doug Wilson and not look at the, you know, the very real possibility that it will put a lot more money in the system ideologically. You. Just one thing you have to understand is that Doug Wilson and a lot of Christian nationalists, I would say the vast majority of Christian nationalists, they want to completely dismantle the public school system. And this is not. The good thing about my podcast is like, none of this is. You don't have to trust me. They tell you that's exactly what they say they want to do. It's not sort of speculation or even my analysis. No, they want to dismantle public schools. They think public schools are evil. They think that the public school system indoctrinates students into secularism. I pointed out to Doug Wilson in the podcast that aren't you kind of trying to do the same thing in, in your schools? And he sort of joked like, oh, yeah, but that's the good indoctrination. So, yeah, so it's, it's both. It's ideological and it's practical. Right? Because your school is going to do better with more money. But also, Doug Wilson has a grand plan to get rid of public schools and he says he, like, replace them with, With a Christian public school system. But when I challenged him on that. Like, well, that's not really public school. Right. That's just private school, basically. And yeah, I mean, that's. That's what it is.

[James Dawson]

And just a quick follow up. There are national institutions such as the Council on National Policy, the Heritage Institution, whom, in who in their public documentation have represented the same ideas. And do you regard their philosophy as a direct outgrowth of movements and publicity and statements such as those authored by Wilson and his confederates?

[Heath Druzen]

I don't know that they're an outgrowth in that. I don't know if they can't. I, I wouldn't say they necessarily came from Doug Wilson, but I think they are very much in. I think they influence each other and they read each other's stuff and I think absolutely, they're. They're connected now, no question. That's why. Not that I don't think it's very interesting to do a story about the fight for Moscow, because I do. But the reason I really wanted, I thought this podcast was interesting to people well outside of Moscow, is because those connections go all the way to the national level. So, yeah, yeah, I do think there's huge connections there. These guys know each other, they read each other's stuff, they influence each other. And there's no question right now that those ideas have gone all the way up the chain and are about to be swirling around the White House.

[Panelist]

Thank you. Joanne.

[Joanne Manita]

I did want to ask you about Dominionism, because you haven't used the word. They use it and I don't think a lot of us know what it means or what it. And also the Seven Mountains.

[Heath Druzen]

Right, so that's true. I didn't use the word Dominionism, and not for any particular reason. It's an important one. But yeah, I mean, essentially they, Doug Wilson and a lot of Christian nationalists believe. They don't believe that you should be content to believe what you believe in your church. Privately, they think that Christianity needs to be public, and not just public in that you talk about Christianity in the public sphere, but that Christianity needs to be the basis for governance and for all of society and that Christian principles need to be official doctrine, essentially. So basically, that Christ has dominion over everything in life. So, yeah, I mean, in a nutshell, it means theocracy. And that essentially, if you're not Christian, you don't believe what we do. And when I say not Christian, in Doug Wilson's mind, sorry, Mormons, but you're out too. Catholics, not. Not so great either, in his mind. It's a very narrow band of Christianity. So if you're not, if you don't have a strict Protestant belief system, you can stay, but you don't get the full rights and benefits of society because in their idea, dominionism, is their belief system running the show, basically, or the.

[Joanne Manita]

Yeah. And that brings me to another, Another part of the inter. Inter. I don't know what the word is of politics and religion, because all of their ideas that you talked about, like, do women get to vote, do gays get to marry, do public schools exist? These are all political issues, but they frame them in a religious aspect. And so when you try to say something, they say, well, religious freedom, you know, and we can believe what we want. And then a lot of us who respect religious freedom say, oh, yeah, that's right. What can we do about that? So how do you approach that?

[Heath Druzen]

Just to make sure I understand the question, It's. Are you asking, basically, they. How you, how you, how you deal with wanting to let them live their lives, but them not wanting to let you live your life.

[Joanne Manita]

That's a good way of putting it.

[Heath Druzen]

I mean, is that.

[Joanne Manita]

That's. That's part of it. That's part of it, yeah.

[Heath Druzen]

It's kind of a. I used to be a war reporter, so pardon me, but it's kind of asymmetric. It's a little bit asymmetric warfare. Right. And I think Doug Wilson might use the same term. Well, I think that's part of the reason they're effective, because they are uncompromising and other folks in this community probably are more accepting of. Of them or at least, you know, not. Certainly not wanting to create a society where they can't believe what they believe within the, within their church. Yeah, I don't know that I have a really good answer to that. I think they're going to stick to their belief system. You're certainly not going to talk them out of it. But it does seem like people in Moscow have stuck to their belief systems too, and not compromised on that. Now, where does that leave you in the end? I don't know. There's a bit of a standoff here, but again, here we are talking about it freely, so that's good for now. Yeah, I'm sorry, it's an unsatisfactory answer, but it is asymmetric. Right. I mean, they, they want a system where you, where you have restrictions on your rights and they don't.

[Joanne Manita]

Exactly, exactly. And I, I've seen from a lot of the questions that have been submitted and a lot of ideas that the people of Moscow want to solve this problem without friction. We believe in pluralism, and we believe in love, and we want to stick to that. But as you're saying, maybe we have to be activist. What do you mean when you say we have to be activists?

[Heath Druzen]

I don't think I. I think I said you need to be specifically engaged. Oh, okay. You. I mean, what I was saying is. So in both seasons of the podcast, both seasons of Extremely American, one thing I kept coming back to is that what extremists are really good at is finding the weak points in democracy. And that means when there's a 25% turnout election on an off year for local offices, you know, who's definitely going to vote in them? People with radical ideas, like, they will be at the voting. So that's what I was saying is it's that, you know, you got to pay attention to. Actually, as one pastor who's in Doug Wilson's world said, pay attention to the stupid stuff. Comptroller, you know, school board. I'm not saying that stupid. I'm quoting him. But the stuff that, you know, I mean, I will be honest. Before I did the first season of the podcast, I didn't realize that there were. That library boards were often elected, like.

[Joanne Manita]

A lot of us didn't.

[Heath Druzen]

Yeah. And I mean, that's, you know, now we know that's important. Right. I mean, we're looking at libraries and like, oh, oh, like all of a sudden, you got to pay attention to that. So that's what I meant. Like, you've just. You can't get complacent on these. These local issues that, frankly, a lot of people are not familiar with.

[Todd Bailey]

Ethan, your podcast, you did interview several former members of Christ Church and spoke to the difficulty of how challenging it was to leave, particularly a church that is so ingrained in every aspect of your life, school, church, all your friendships and everything else by design. I'm wondering what we, as a community in Moscow can do to support those individuals that are trying to break away in. In what are a very difficult situation for them. And is it. And did they share with you any. Any insight into that?

[Heath Druzen]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, imagine. Imagine leaving everything, you know and believe in being shunned by people who used to be your friends. I mean, it's. It's extremely difficult. So it's. You lose your community. Right. But also, you know, what I found striking is just these ideas that you're brought up with, including patriarchal ideas, they're just so strong and the consequences are so high. Like if you deviate from them, you are going to hell. You know, we talk to, we talked to an abuse survivor who did get out and it was really striking to hear. You know, even when she was getting out, these ideas stuck with her. And she was, you know, in college and she was, you know, friends with somebody who was a lesbian and she was like, oh, but like, she's so nice but, but she's also got to be the most evil person in the world because that's what I was taught and like, you know, grappling with these ideas in real time and yeah, I mean they, I mean, I think that's what makes it really hard. So instead of sort of speculating, I will say what she said. And what I heard from other folks was that, I mean, what was. I think what was really powerful was just being accepted by other people and not being judged. Because a lot of folks who come out of this world, you know, they're kind of naive to, to a lot of things that maybe people in more mainstream society are, are used to. So I think that's another barrier where like, you don't want to be judged for, you know, maybe having some quaint ideas or not knowing, I don't know, not, not knowing about things that we take for granted or being uncomfortable with, with, with certain things or certain ways of dressing because it's, you know, there's, it's a whole like purity culture there that especially for women, that is very regimented and I think is really hard to shake for some people.

[Todd Bailey]

One strategy that Doug was real clear with you about is how much he encouraged individuals and families to move to this community. And there would be a lot of networking, a lot of assistance if you wanted to start a small business and get involved. And there's been a lot of real estate acquisitions as well by Christ Church members. I guess it raises a question and I know it's. The community's kind of divided on this and that's. And I don't know if you, if you, I know you don't want to really get too political as a journalist, but is it, is there really.

[Heath Druzen]

Is.

[Todd Bailey]

It a good strategy? I guess the way to put it, to boycott those Christ owned businesses as an oppositional move to, to maybe mitigate or, or is this something that is really counterproductive?

[Heath Druzen]

Honestly, I, I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I think, I don't know how effective it's been. Doug Wilson has been effective at bringing people into Moscow. People definitely have moved here. We talked to people whose families moved here because of Doug Wilson. And they're very good at patronizing their own businesses. So, yeah, another unsatisfactory answer, but I don't know how effective it is. But, you know, I think you kind of have to go with what you're comfortable with, you know, you know, like, it's your money. You decide where it goes. And I certainly, you know, it's not like they're certainly not talking about boycotting other businesses, but I think they very much pay attention to supporting their own. So I would say they're making financial decisions along those lines, even if they don't have a boycott list like some other folks have. But, yeah, I don't know. I don't know how effective it is. I imagine it doesn't help them, but.

[Joanne Manita]

Okay, I just want. I didn't learn this so much from your podcast, but from other webinars I've taken part in, is how well thought of and important Doug Wilson is to the whole Christian nationalist web in our country and how much people are looking at Moscow, Idaho, and they call it. Doug Wilson's Empire is what they call us. They're looking to us to see how successful he's going to be in his takeover and his experiment here. I thought that was very surprising to me because we just see what goes on here. But no, Pennsylvania knows in Washington knows and Texas knows.

[Heath Druzen]

Yeah, I mean, he's, he's kind of the granddad in a sweater vest of the movement. I mean, like, he's. For a lot of people. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, because he, he was doing it, he was doing it before it was cool for listeners. I'm putting quotes there. Right. I mean, he, he, he was, he was shouting into the wind when not a lot of people were listening. So I think that's a big reason he's been influential also. He's just so prolific with his writing that there's so many things for people to read. One thing we were kind of talking about before the discussion here, which I think is sort of a weird aspect of Christchurch, is in some ways, Doug Wilson is more influential at the state level and the national level than he is in Moscow. Well, I mean, and maybe there might be some disagreement here, I don't know, but Doug Wilson, like, the thing is, Doug Wilson doesn't run Moscow. Right? Not even close. You guys, you guys don't have a city council that's run by Christchurch. You're not close to a theocracy here. Again, here we are. But his, so his ideas, though, I think are pretty influential nationally and also more quietly at the state level. He's got some, his people have some real pull at the legislature. So, yeah, in a weird way, I would say you could argue that he might be more influential outside of Moscow when it comes to ideology, although he's certainly got a huge footprint here and he's trying to make it bigger. But, you know, he's been working to make this a Christian town for 40 years and it hasn't happened yet. And that's, I think that is an important fact because I unfortunately, I've seen some national reporters get it wrong where they're like, doug Wilson has a kind of theocracy in Moscow. Well, that's not true. Everybody here knows that's not true. But he wants to so important to keep in mind, right. That's his goal. But I would say he's pretty far from achieving it in this town at the moment, which isn't to say that he hasn't made some serious inroads.

[Panelist]

Thank you, panel. Don't go away. Just stay here and we'll all congregate and enjoy. Heath's responses.

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[Panelist]

Few questions from the audience. Can you draw a straight line between the Christian nationalist movement and an authoritarian government?

[Heath Druzen]

Yeah. So. Well, I mean, I say that not to be flipped, but I'm going to try not to like bore you as a history major here. But we've seen it in the past, right? So in Argentina, there was this idea of the sword and the cross back in the 70s, and that was the Catholic Church in league with a dictatorship, and that's a Christian nationalist dictatorship in the not too distant past where, I mean, yeah, you saw, you saw that kind of Christian nationalist authoritarianism. You saw it with Franco in Spain. I mean, it's not. So when I say you can draw a direct line, I mean, yeah, we've seen it in the past. And the. There's a book that was published by Canon Press, so Doug Wilson's publishing house, very recently, and I read it, so you don't have to. It's called the Case for Christian Nationalism. It's really long and it's pretty dense, but it's called the Case for Christian Nationalism by Stephen Wolf. His brother William Wolf, by the way, was a senior Trump administration official who's very likely to be a more senior Trump administration official. But that book lays out the idea of a Christian prince running the show. That book's really influential in Christian nationalist circles. It is not a treatise on democracy. It literally talks about a Christian prince. So basically, like a strong man who's sort of, you know, divinely ordained to lead people. So there's some serious authoritarian strains. And as I said, they don't like democracy. And you don't have to take my word for it. They'll tell you. Just ask them. Yeah. So I guess the answer is, is yes. Not. Not always, but. But. But often.

[Panelist]

What role does anti Semitism play in these movements?

[Heath Druzen]

So that's a really interesting question right now because Doug Wilson. Doug Wilson is in this weird position at the moment of, like, being accused of being the woke Christian. Right. I'm not even. I know, right. It's funny. So we haven't talked about it, but there's a strain of Christian nationalism that is expressly anti Semitic and, and, and increasingly, like, pro Nazi. Like, we got World War II wrong. And, and I'm not exaggerating, like, like, seriously, like, just revisionist history. Andrew Torba is the CEO of gab, which is this alternative social media platform that's become just, I mean, almost a neo Nazi site. He hates Jews and he's part of that side of Christian nationalism. Doug Wilson, he doesn't exactly consult Jews about this topic or, like, bring them into the conversation. But right now he is arguing, basically saying, don't go full Nazi. It's bad. And other people are pushing back on him and being like, you're. You're woke. And, and I mean, like, literally what they're saying. So there is a huge amount of anti Semitism in Christian nationalism. I would say that Doug Wilson has plenty of ideas that aren't exactly progressive towards Jews. He doesn't think that we should be able to hold office. But. Yeah, but he is actually in this fight right now pushing back against anti Semitism, and it is a big fracture in the Christian nationalist movement right at the time, where they should be at the height of Their powers, which is kind of an interesting inside baseball thing right now.

[Panelist]

Maybe follow up on that a little bit about fractures at the height of power.

[Heath Druzen]

I mean, right, they always eat their own. I mean, far right, far left, honestly, like, I mean, like, yeah, like everybody's scrambling for a piece of the pie now, I think. And there, there's, there's a lot of infighting going on. I don't know how much it'll matter. It'll be interesting to see. But there's basically, there's basically a strain of Christian nationalists who have, they call it. They've been black pilled. Like they've, like they, they don't want to be polite about anybody else that's not a hardcore Christian fundamentalist. And yeah, anti Semitism is one thing. There's a lot of racism on that side. Doug Wilson, certainly, I'm not going to say he's been progressive on race. I think everybody here knows that he's been an apologist for slavery. He wrote a whole pamphlet about it. And you know, when I followed up with him on that, he wasn't exactly, he wasn't exactly backtracking. So. But, but yeah, no, Doug Wilson, weirdly enough, is, I'm not going to say he's on the left of that issue because nobody in this conversation that I'm talking about is anywhere close to that. But he's pushing back against some of the more extreme elements.

[Panelist]

This is a little longer talk about media coverage. What happened to newspapers, traditional role as the fourth estate, neutral reporting, calling out lies, promoting truth. What has happened to reporting statistics about statements that simply are not acceptable because facts refute them? What do they teach in journalism schools now? What about law?

[Heath Druzen]

Well, I wouldn't know because I never went to journalism school, so it's not me. Okay, so. Ouch. Um, I think, I think that the thrust of the question is why is there false equivalence in journalism today? Like more false equivalence. It sounds like where you're sort of treating like a wildly radical idea the same as a normal idea. And the one I use is like, women should be able to vote. Women should not be able to vote. Hopefully it came across in my podcast that, you know, I want to give, I want to hear what Christian nationalists have to say. But I'm not going to pretend that taking the vote away from women and telling non Christians that they can't run for office is like, okay, because it's not. Because first of all, that's like, you know, my daughter, that's me, like, like my whole family's sort of, like, covered there. And I don't think we should lose our rights, but it's a problem in journalism for sure. As, as more radical ideas get mainstreamed and become part of government, there is an unfortunate. There's an. There's an unfortunate reaction to sort of treat ideas that used to be unacceptable as just another normal opinion. And I think that's dangerous now. I also think it's dangerous to just try to ignore these things away. Because that hasn't worked. And. Yeah. And it won't work. And. Yeah, the other thing, I know there were a lot of criticisms in there. And that's. And that's. And that's fair. We should be open to scrutiny as journalists. The fact is, how many people here subscribe to your local newspaper? All right, all right. Okay. You guys, you guys are special here, if you're being honest. Thank you. Most rooms will not have that percentage for listeners at home. Like, the majority of hands went up. That's great, but that is not representative. And it's hard to. Like, newspapers don't have resources. They used to. I worked at the statesman in the mid 2000s, and even then it felt like we were pinched. Man, that newsroom is a ghost town now compared to when I was there. And so you've got reporters who are doing two stories a day, and it's, it's, it's, it's brutal. Now, I'm not saying that's an excuse for not, like, doing your due diligence, but you can only do so much. You only have so much time. People are underpaid. So we need to find a way. We have responsibility as journalists, but also the communities have. We got to find a way to support better journalism because it's a real detriment to democracy that local newspapers, especially local stations, just local media in general has been so decimated.

[Panelist]

Thanks. Two. Two final questions. In your nerve, in your interviews with parishioners of churches, who leaders want to take over, how do they reconcile affection for neighbors of different beliefs, for secular aspects of their communities, with obedience to dominant pastors? So if you're in one of those church, how do you obey your pastor? And how do you continue to have respect and love for your neighbor?

[Heath Druzen]

Well, I think a lot of folks in the Christian nationalist world think of respect and love for your neighbor differently than maybe other folks do. Right. I mean, they. Then that's not to say. That's not to say that. I mean, folks in Christchurch, you know, I, I don't know that they're openly disrespecting. People to their faces. But I think they think that loving your neighbor means sharing their belief system and trying to convert them so they don't go to hell. Whereas other people might think respect means letting them believe what they want to believe. And if they want to change their mind, they can. That. That, that would be my. Yeah, I think that would be my, my succinct answer.

[Panelist]

So I'd like to give you a chance to say any closing comment you want, but I have one last comment to read back to you.

[Heath Druzen]

Okay, I'm ready. Should I be nervous?

[Panelist]

All right, Keith, thank you. Thank you so much for bringing greater awareness to of this topic with your reporting. I've loved the podcast, have lived in the era for a long time and have a history of growing up in a legitimate religious cult in the late 70s and 80s. Appreciate your work and hope. Thank you.

[Heath Druzen]

Well, yeah, thank you. That's really kind. I really appreciate it and that means a lot. Thank you. Thanks to everybody who came out and stayed so long and heard me drone on and on. Yeah, I really appreciate it and I mean it. All of the feedback I've got from Moscow has been great and it's such an engaged, smart community. It's been really cool to hear from everyone tonight and throughout the month since the podcast came out. So thank you.

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this season of Extremely American, make sure to check out Season one. It's an inside look at the militia movement and how it's influenced American politics.

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