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A (5:03)

Joe Ovius is here with me now. He of course is one of the hosts of Ovius and Gilio alongside Joe Gilio. The show originates in the Triangle, specifically, I believe from Raleigh, North Carolina. My first question for you. What's it like to do a podcast with somebody who shares your.

C (5:18)

Your.

A (5:18)

Your. Your same first name? Is it inspired by the success of Mike and Mike once upon a time?

C (5:25)

Well, unfortunately, there's already a radio show here in North Carolina that goes by two guys named Chris. That eliminated my initial idea of two guys named two guys named Joe. Right. Okay. We just keep it simple, man. We, we decided in terms of SEO, the easiest thing for us to do is to go by our last names, which are incredibly easy to spell. Angelio. OG for sure. We just go by the OG. If you're watching on YouTube, you got the hat. Got the OG. Little North Carolina inspiration here. So that's how we keep it simple.

A (5:54)

Well, I'm a big, I'm a big fan of watching any former radio guy transition into the. What is more commonly referred to as the, as the podcast world.

C (6:03)

So.

A (6:03)

So welcome aboard.

C (6:05)

Yeah, man, the content minds never stops. Let's go, let's go.

A (6:09)

So before we get into this North Carolina team and what to expect this upcoming season, first talk to me. What I guess is the biggest topic of conversation connected to the program. And that's probably the head coach, Hubert Davis. He's heading into to year five after replacing Roy Williams. The first four years have been, let's just say, interesting. Three NCAA tournament appearances, two Sweet 16s, one trip to the national title game. That's all pretty good stuff. But they did finish seventh in the ACC in year two. Missed the NCAA tournament then. And then last year in year four, underachieved preseason top ten team barely snuck into the NCAA tournament and not without controversy. Yeah, is this a do it or else season for Hubert Davis? How confident are you that he makes it to year six?

C (7:00)

Yeah, short answer. It is a must win season for North Carolina and Hubert Davis. The one thing that outside listeners might not understand about the Triangle and something that Gilio likes to bring up all the time is that nothing in our market happens in a vacuum. Duke is not operating because of what they feel is good for Duke. They're keeping an eye on what's happening at North Carolina, vice versa. So everything that every, any conversation we have about Hubert Davis in North Carolina is directly tied to what's happening with John Shire and Duke. Now there's a wrinkle in 2025, because, Gary, you know this. You've been doing this as long as I've been doing it. And I can go back to old columns of yours back in the day. NC State has not been a player for 25 plus years. I can go back to when they moved on from Herb Sendeck, you included, saying, what does NC State expect? And they've been wandering through the wilderness since outside of the one magical 2024 where Kevin Keats finally broke NC State stuff. We call it something else that starts with an S. But he finally stuffed the stuff, as he said. But what it did was it allowed NC State to have an opportunity to go and get Will Wade, who had promised two years at McNeese. Right. Had they moved on from Kevin Keats after, you know, while he was at. Well, he's at McNeese that first year, and he was almost fired at the ACC tournament before they went and won the thing, went to the Final Four, they would not have had an opportunity to go to Will Wade. So the reason why I'm bringing up NC State is because of that. Nothing in the triangle happens in a vacuum. For the first time in my lifetime, either living here or working in this market. North Carolina states put the money behind basketball. The money people, the booster people. There was something about 2024 that made grown men cry and say out loud, you know what? We're a basketball school. Let's stop acting like we can be a football school. Let's invest. And they went out and got the guy. Okay? There was no Heisman. There was no sabotage. There was none of that stuff. They got the guy. So if they're playing the game at NC State and Duke's already been playing the game better than anybody else, in my opinion, well, all eyes turn to Hubert Davis in North Carolina. They have not been playing the game. And you just kind of laid it out. Let's just bottom line it. Three of the last four years, North Carolina has been a bubble team. Is that, is that the standard at North Carolina? Absolutely not. And while all of the talk can be around Bill Belichick right now, I'm going to tell you something that former Governor Roy Cooper told us here in the studio a couple of weeks ago. He's now running for Senate, but he was in the studio, we were talking Bill Belichick and hoops. He said, yeah, Bill's job is to keep us from talking about basketball as long as possible so you can have all that stuff going on at Keenan. But at the end of the day, they care about what's happening in basketball and they are not going to let it atrophy. And unfortunately for Hubert Davis in the last, you know, going into this fifth year, they've been caught flat footed. There's been a refusal to adapt. They still think they're operating in a world where the shorts matter, that Jordan Brand is the thing and that that's all you need to get a guy here. No, Duke very much trailblazed with John Shire out of the gate and there's been some, some trepidation as to, well, where, what are we doing going forward and as much as north and I'm sure in the chat North Carolina fans will tell you this and they're probably asking you, hey, Gary, why are you talking to a State guy about Carolina? Well, I think it's because I'm here telling you about the real dynamics, actual dynamics at play here in the triangle rather than the Pollyanna stuff. And as much as North Carolina fans can sit here and tell you about what happened in the final four back in 2022, Duke's not thinking about that anymore, man. They moved on with their lives. Right now Carolina fans sound like, you know, they peaked in high school. Like, hey man, remember that time I threw four touchdowns? Remember that? Remember they said, honestly, they sound a lot like NC State fans who wouldn't stop talking about 1983. So everybody's moved on except Carolina. And I think this is the year where it finally comes to a head for Hubert Davis.

A (11:23)

And I, and I agree with every bit of that and it's obviously important that he takes what I think is a top 25ish roster and turns it into a top 25 consistent top 25 team, if not better. Because I think everybody likes Hubert and everybody respects Hubert. I don't want to speak for you, but I, I find him to be likable. I find him to be. I, you know, I understand why he got the job. But heading into year five there is undeniable pressure and it seems pretty everybody can agree on this. If this doesn't go well, this will be it.

C (12:04)

Yes.

A (12:05)

The question for me would be, and I'm going to ask this to you, what does well even look like and how much does it matter? Because like, you know, he can win X amount of games, finish top five in the ACC, bounce in the NCAA tournament, win a game, eliminated in the round of 32? My question at a place like North Carolina has always been something along these lines. Regardless of what somebody did in year 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 5 last year or expected to do next year, you should be at a place like North Carolina asking yourself some version of this question. Do we have one of the best coaches in the country? We should. We're North Carolina. We are North Carolina. We should have one of the best coaches in the country. And if you ask that question right now, what kind of answer would you get? And I say this again as somebody who is respectful, but could you. Could even the most die hard North Carolina fan intelligently argue right now that they have one of the two or three or four or five best coaches in the sport? Because you do have one of the two or three and four or five best programs in the sport, or at least you're supposed to.

C (13:17)

Yeah, you are supposed to. And I listen to ion college basketball. I know you have brought that up and I don't disagree with you. But there's also some market realities here as well. You know, we talked to Bubba Cunningham, outgoing athletics director at North Carolina, this week or whenever I think this is now, last week when this is running. So we talked to Bubba about a bunch of different things. You know, 30 minutes worth of conversation with Bubba. He's always great with us. And we got around to what are the expectations around Hubert Davis. And I actually go back to a conversation we had with Bubba Cunningham after the announcement of Hubert Davis as the head coach. Two things. One, we come to find out that Hubert Davis, or I'm sorry, that Bubba Cunningham did make calls to what you would consider some of the best coaches in college basketball. It's just that they didn't, they weren't in a place that they wanted to go to. North Carolina. We've heard this before, by the way. History doesn't rhyme. It repeats. Roy Williams was in that same position now, a little bit different dynamics because Roy Williams was coming home, but the dynamics at Kansas led that. Well, you know what? I gotta, I gotta ride it out with this group. And it wasn't until a change in AD and that group was done that he finally had to come home and save the Carolina basketball program. Well, I think the same thing happened here too with Hubert Davis in that Bubba Cunningham made the right calls to the right people. They just said, no, just not right now. Okay, so when those options are expired, all right, what do you do next well, then you go to the family guy. You go to the one that, you know, Roy Williams likely pushed for in the grand scheme of things. But I don't know if Hubert Davis has been properly supported, okay? Because I get. I get back to the through line through all of this. Have you modernized your program? Breaking from Roy Williams should have played out the same way that you broke from Mike Krzychefsky, that you've built up this brand. You have one of the top basketball programs in the country. But as we know, and we've seen it at North Carolina, actually, we've seen it now kind of play out twice. Just because you're at a blue blood doesn't necessarily mean you're just going to have be a turnkey operation. One of the more hilarious things that I remember with Roy Williams, despite the fact that he won three national championships, was those anonymous coaches things that you guys used to do. They always viewed Roy Williams as an overrated coach. It was like Carolina. He recruits well. Recruiting is part of it.

A (15:38)

Sure.

C (15:39)

It was so easy to win at North Carolina. Please explain Matt Daugherty, who got recruits, but then they all hated him.

A (15:44)

Right?

C (15:45)

So I think the same thing's playing out with Hubert Davis with a little bit of a different wrinkle. Either because of him or because of the Carolina family dynamics. There wasn't a clean break. Hubert Davis is an extension of Roy Williams in the Carolina family, whereas John Shire is. John Shire, Right. It's his program, the way he wants to run it. I'm not so sure that Hubert Davis has necessarily been able to do that. And if he has, then I can objectively say he has not done a very good job of breaking from that old mold and modernizing. Brendan Marks of the Athletic did a very fascinating deep dive, highlighting all the ways that North Carolina had been behind the curve, like just behind the trends of college basketball and how this past year they've done their best efforts to catch up to that. I mean, come on, guys, that should have been taking place a couple of years ago. Maybe you wouldn't find yourself in this position. I also think that messaging for Hubert. I'm with you. I like Hubert Davis, but to the point where I wish I could help Hubert Davis. I don't think his messaging has been all that good. He has not been as open when given opportunities to be open about stuff. Let's look at the general manager position as an example of that. He says on his radio show, I recognize that the game has changed and we're going to get a general Manager. This is on the radio show. He then has a press availability shortly after that where somebody asked him, you know, a follow up to that. He's like, I don't want to, I don't want to talk about that because things get misconstrued. Huh? Okay, that's interesting. And they do hire a general manager, but they had, they hire a general manager that again has very deep Roy Williams family esque connections. Go look at Jim Tanner, who I'm sure is a nice guy. He's long time, you know, in the, in basketball world. But look at all the guys he represented. They're like all Carolina guys, okay? They're all connected to Roy Williams in some form or fashion. That era. It's not what happened at Duke where they got a Nike exec who understands how the game is played. You see what I'm getting at?

A (17:43)

Yes.

C (17:43)

Then there's also the messaging that's also not helping Hubert Davis. They had a contract extension that apparently just been sitting there for a while and it wasn't until things were getting a little dicey on the bubble until they pulled the lever on, hey, by the way, he's got an extension. Remember that?

A (18:00)

Yes, yes.

C (18:01)

That was kind of weird, right? That was kind of weird. And then we get to this off season, which I think is the biggest tell. And Greg Barnes, who is a very longtime UNC media guy with Inside Carolina, he wrote, when everything was done with the, with the roster, he wrote, I'm paraphrasing here. There has been unprecedented financial commitment to the basketball program. So any excuse that you might have about how we're not financially supported, well, that's out the window. I remember getting into a debate with Matt Norlander about this where apparently Hubert Davis had to go talk to some big money guys. Gary, this is Carolina basketball. Since when does the basketball coach have to beg for money? You see what I'm getting at, right? Unless there's buy in. So all these things. Unfortunately for Hubert Davis, I feel like things are set up for him to fail because the messaging has already been laid out. We've given you everything you need. You better go win. And if you don't, well, then you're going to be shown the door. So the vibes, if you want to use the kids parlance here, the vibes are off around Hubert Davis and this program right now. And the only solution for it is to win.

A (19:17)

I should say I am understanding of the challenges of going out and trying to hire a coach in this era of college basketball. Once upon a time, North Carolina You're Kentucky, you could kind of go buy even other power conference coaches because not everybody was spending millions of dollars on basketball staffs, you know, even when I started into this career. But now, like at the power conference level, everybody's rich. And if you are really good in a power conference, and I don't mean really good at Kentucky or really good at Indiana, the traditionally strong basketball programs, I mean, if you were really good at a power conference program, they are probably compensating you incredibly well and are willing to match anybody dollar for dollar. And that is why, or at least among the reasons why, you know, when the Kentucky job most recently opened, they ended up hiring somebody who has never at that time won an NCAA tournament game. Yeah, Duke hired an assistant by design, but still an assistant. Arizona hired an assistant. Syracuse hired an assistant. Louisville hired a mid major coach. Virginia hired a mid major coach. Like it is very difficult to just go out and hire your quote, top five coach in the country. I acknowledge that. But that is the type of thing. If I were, you know, in charge of decisions at North Carolina, I would be asking myself, we, we, we, we are supposed to be one of the best basketball programs in the country. Do we have the basketball coach that lines up with that? Perhaps that's not even.

C (20:51)

I think what you're talking about is fit. Right? You know, like Mark Pope. You mentioned Mark Pope. He is the perfect coach for Kentucky right now, coming off of what had happened with Calipari. Right.

A (20:58)

It seems like it.

C (20:59)

And I think in the case of John Shire, he is young, energetic and is allowing to unders. He, he, he is allowed to understand that in order to get the types of recruits that you want, in order to continue this, the success, you have to play a different game, which I think they're doing very, very well. You know, I don't think, you know, based on getting to the Final Four and all that stuff, some people would tell you, I don't think John Shire is one of the best coaches in the, in college basketball right now. Well then how does he keep doing this? Well, there's a buy in. Everybody's, everybody's in sync right now at Duke. That's been my biggest issue with North Carolina in the Hubert Davis era. I think this is for the first time, if I look at the roster correctly, outside of a guy like Seth Tremble, I mean, we're really talking about a whole new bunch of dudes. Okay. I would have preferred, I mean, I, I know in retrospect it's going to sound like I'm A crazy person to say that. They should have had a clean break in Hubert's first year with a brand spanking new kind of lineup with his guys. They ended up getting in the Final Four. But let's not. And beating Duke and getting the championship game. But let's not misremember what that season was, okay? I mean, that's. That was. That was a. That was a miracle of March. It was an incredible run, don't get me wrong. But let's go back and objectively look at what their season was before they went on this run, and you saw with some of those same dynamics playing out. RJ Davis, Armando Baker, you had some friction. Last time we saw that was a Roy Williams team after the 09 championship. You go from 09 to 10. That was a group where you had the next group coming up with some of the leftovers. There was a little bit of a mismatch there. And you saw what had happened that year. They weren't on the same page. They end up getting to the NIT. Of course, Duke was a championship back in 2010, so I would have preferred Hubert to have a clean break. I would have preferred it last year. Instead, RJ Davis comes back and rj, like, at some point, man, you gotta leave the nest. You're just too old to be playing college basketball, right? And allow somebody like Elliot Cadeau to develop. Okay, well, that didn't necessarily happen. Now Cado is gone. Same thing with Ian Jackson, right? Too many cooks, man. Too many cooks. What are you gonna do? You got a reigning ACC Player of the year. I mean, like, you're gonna take him off the floor, right? So Ian Jackson's development wasn't necessarily there. So I'm looking at the roster now in that you went and solved the problems that were, you know, the problems that kept you from elevating last year, and that's on the front court. But of course, now there's some questions about the guard position, you know, who's gonna run point. I mean, I'm assuming Kyan Evans is gonna adapt well to. To what. What Hubert Davis wants him to do. But you go out and get Visar, who I know everybody's excited about, but these are all known quantities. The thing that I still don't know about with Hubert Davis is how do you develop freshmen? Again, this gets back to the. Nothing happens in a vacuum, right? I kind of know how John Shire is running things with his freshman. He has no problem with the guy. You know, I'm sure we'll see with the Boozer Twins again this year. But Caleb Wilson, right, he's this. I have not seen Caleb Wilson in person yet, but apparently he's the real deal, Right? I have not seen anything from Hubert Davis's track record that would tell me that he's just going to let. He's going to take the governor off Caleb Wilson and let him do his thing. Right. So these are things that I think a lot of Carolina fans are looking at. And how do you, how do you manage this roster with a bunch of new guys? There's not a lot of loyalty it might go against. You don't have time to develop anymore. This is something that Bubba Cunningham told us this week when he talked about how things used to work at Carolina. You would have opportunities to develop. Well, the development starts now, so you don't have the opportunity to have Ian Jackson come back a following year. Expectations are up now on him at St. John. So the same thing happens with Caleb Wilson. What is, what are his minutes going to be? How crucial is he going to be? I mean, I think everybody understands he's an X factor, right? They might be a little old school this year where you're going to, you know, you're running, you're getting your. Your front guys in. Basically you're running, you're running your offense like it used to be. Right. So I'll be curious to see if that happens. I don't know. And that those are all the things that are kind of jumbling around with North Carolina basketball right now. Why we talk about Hubert Davis the way that we do, it's just a lot of uncertainty.

A (25:10)

So by my count, eight of the top nine scores from last season are gone. The only one back, Seth Trimble. As you noted publicly, it's been made pretty clear North Carolina basketball is being supported extremely well financially. The program has hired a general manager. They went into the class of 2025 and got a top 10 prospect in Caleb Wilson. Also go into the transfer portal. Go and get Kyon Evans out of Colorado State, somebody who shot above 44% from three last season for an NCAA tournament team. Go get Jaren Stevenson out of Alabama. Go get Henry Vasar out of Arizona when the fans. Because you would have a better idea than I am.

C (25:56)

You haven't talked about Luca yet. Was it. Is it Bogovac?

A (25:59)

Yes. Right. So they go out and they, they do well in the transfer portal. Yeah, our fans. Are North Carolina fans happy, please. Satisfied with the roster that's been put in place, given the money that we believe has been spent well, you know.

C (26:14)

It'S funny you bring that up because this is another thing that I jotted down and how the messaging around Davis is a little wonky right now, right? So I, you know me, man, I consume a lot of media. So I'll listen to you guys. I'll listen to some other college basketball focused podcast. And some of the reaction to their off season moves has been this is what you spent on this roster. Like in an almost dismissive way.

A (26:40)

That is mostly what I've heard, but I would rather hear it from somebody who's got boots on the ground in the triangle every day.

C (26:45)

Well, let me ask this, okay? Who determines value right now? We don't know anything. The price is the price, right? There's no salary cap, you know, if we're talking about the Carolina Hurricanes, well, I know what the cap is. You better do what you need to do with the cap. Ain't no cap right now. So, you know, we don't, you know, people say, well, this is what Duke's been on their roster. This is what we know Duke spent on the roster. We don't know the compensation packages, right? So, like, we'll use, we'll use Cooper Flag as a prime example of this. You know, do we think that the final tally for Cooper Flag was whatever it is that might be floating out there that Duke paid? Of course not. Because Cooper Fly got paid like a coach gets paid these days. You have your base that comes from the school, and then everything else is a compensation package from a variety of different outlets. Like, it's pretty wild to me. I brought up Caleb Wilson. Wilson. You know what? I. I think this just came out where I might have missed it because I've been in football mode here lately. I didn't realize he signed with New Balance. Right? Tell me, tell me it's a new day in Chapel Hill where the top recruit ain't wearing J's. Tell me that's what you're telling me, right? Where Roy Williams gets so many samples of Jordans that I wish he was a size 13 like me because he's told me, do you want some?

A (28:07)

Right?

C (28:07)

I wish. You don't have thirteens. This is a bummer. So it at least indicates to me that Carolina is willing to play a little bit of a different game now that this guy's a New Balance kid. Now, you obviously can't wear those around Jordan because we understand that's when he'll take it personal. I'm just using that to illustrate a point where at Duke it doesn't it doesn't matter if Cooper flags a New Balance guy because it's Duke. It's a business. But a Carolina man, it's a little different. So getting back to the value aspect of it, we don't know what the value is for these guys because we don't know the value of any of these guys. I feel like it's a beauties in the eye of the beholder. You know, there are some players, Gary, you and I both know, that are not worth what they ended up getting on the open market. And Carolina has decided we ain't playing that game or they're willing to match the money. But then there's some other issues or some other asks that Carolina goes, now we ain't doing that. And you see the production that goes along with it and you look back at Carolina and go, yeah, probably for the best. You didn't get this guy. I'm not going to say who it is, but I'm sure some Carolina fans can connect some dots on who I'm talking about that they lost. That I don't know, might be watching Secret Lives of Mormon Wives for all I know, but that's another story altogether. So I asked the question, who says it's overpaying? You pay what you have to pay because that's the price of poker, man. And if it ends up being a little bit more than you're comfortable with, well, damned if you do, damned if you don't. Because if they don't spend this money to get the roster you're kind of on, can you imagine the roster they've had if they didn't spend money?

A (29:38)

That's.

C (29:39)

I push back on this business of trying to assign value to a basketball roster because nobody knows what the limit is.

A (29:49)

And at the end of the day, the price that you spent will only matter if it's not good, right? If. If the team's good, nobody will ever get caught up on how much money was spent on this roster again. But if the team's bad, that's when it will get thrown up in your face over and over again. Think of it as a Major League baseball free agent, NBA free agent who signed some big contract. As long as they're good, we never mention the money again. The second they're not good, we start pointing to the contract and saying they're overpaid and blah, blah, blah. And that's the same way this will go. You did say something that coincidentally, I had a conversation with a coach in recent weeks. It was a conversation. We were talking Nil. And you know how it's changed and where it's going. And he just said, like GP Because I've been on the side of, I want people to be able to make whatever it is somebody's willing to give them. I, I don't care about anything else, or at least I care about few things other than that. And he was like, GP, I hear you, but I mean, some of these kids were getting a $2 million nil deal and they're not worth two. It'll be like, nil. You're supposed to be using your name, image and likeness. And, and the number attached to that was $2 million. And I'm just telling you that player in terms of name, image and likeness is not worth $2 million. And yet they'd still put it in the contract. And he said, and I got a real problem with that. And I said, that's fine, but will you give me a copy of your contract? Because I bet you in there you get paid a ridiculous amount of money in your contract for what is considered a weekly coaches show. You know, they put these in all these contracts, or at least they used to. I'm not sure how. Yeah, okay, so the way for people who don't know you, you would. Your base salary for a college basketball coach was nothing, few hundred thousand dollars coming from the university. And then all the rest of it would come from outside entities. And that's how you get John Calipari up to $10 million. But somewhere says the coach is expected to do a weekly radio show, our call in show on Monday nights on some AM station for $900,000. And I was talking to the coach, I was like, now do you think your weekly radio show is worth $900,000 to anybody? Because I can just tell you it's not. It's not. All right, but you're not, you're not complaining about that. You're just, that's just how they justify giving you the money in the paperwork. And it's really no different than this other thing. And he was like, okay, okay, you got a good point.

C (32:15)

Now I have an affinity, I have an affinity for coaches radio shows because that's how I got my start.

A (32:19)

There you go.

C (32:20)

I used to, I used to run the, I used to run the board for a local affiliate for ECU football coach Steve Logan. And Buddy, let me tell you the kind of calls that would come in. It would get to the point where Steve Logan would ask the caller, how much are you giving to the Pirates club? I mean, it Got. I mean, look, I remember Roy Williams getting into it with UNC fans while he's chilling out at Top of the Hill, right? And he's like, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a. I'm not a doctor.

A (32:45)

I'm a coach.

C (32:46)

There's not anything you. You can think of that I already have thought of, right? He would get combative. They actually stopped taking phone calls, by the way. Oh, yeah, Maybe there was one point in time where Roy Williams fighting with Carolina fans who would tell him, hey, Roy, have you thought about playing Larry Drew a little bit more? Right? Or have you. Why'd you. Why'd you. Why'd you. Why'd you keep all your timeouts there, Roy? Oh, that might be worth some money, but not now.

A (33:15)

My favorite example of those things, and I just know this because of where I grew up. But, like, as the Phil Former era at Tennessee was turning bad, you would have Vol calls every Monday night or whenever it was, and there's some call, like, the sentiment's true, whether I'm quoting it exactly right or not. Sentiment was there. And it's like. And let's go to Jimmy from Cookville. And they're like, hey, Jimmy, you're on the air with Coach Fulmer. And old Jimmy gets on and he's like, coach Farmer, I know how much you love the Vols, and I know how much you love the University of Tennessee. It's just as much as I love the University of Tennessee. And Phil Farmer's like, that's right, Jimmy. And he said, so, Coach Fulmer, the question I got for you, considering how much you love the Tennessee balls, is if you love the UT Vols as much as we think you do, why don't you just resign and let somebody else do this? One of those, like, oh, man. Man.

C (34:06)

It's a good. It's a good way that you bring it up, because I do think it highlights where Carolina basketball is right now in that Roy Williams won three national championships, and you still had people there at the end saying, for the good of the program, he needs. If he loves Carolina as much as he says he does, he needs to resign. And Hubert Davis is now finding the same situation because, again, Carolina guy, Dean guy, Roy, all this other stuff, nobody loves the university like Hubert Davis does, right? So if you love the university that much, well, then you need to get out of the way. And I'll be curious if it doesn't go the way they want it to, how they'll handle it. And I can envision a scenario Where Hubert Davis, because he loves the university so much, we're joking about Phil Fulmer and whatnot, Roy Williams, but I could see Hubert Davis doing that. I can see Hubert Davis saying, look, man, it. This is just not. This is not working for me. It's not working for you. And I love the school too much, so I'm just gonna step to the side here. And what Carolina does after that is a good question because they're also going through an ad transition. Right. So Bubba Cunningham is. He's gonna cycle off into special projects. The special project being what do we do with Carolina basketball's home? Do we renovate the Smith center, or do we move to this Carolina north to project which they've been sitting on this land for a very, very long time. And then special project number two is so about the sec. So those are things that he's working on. What does that dynamic look like with a new ad with a new chancellor and Lee Roberts in the direction, you know, clearly they. They moved heaven and earth to bring Bill Belichick. How far are they willing to go for that next coach? Right. And I hate that we're kind of already, you know, right in the end for Hubert Davis at North Carolina. But you and I both know, and I've seen it here locally many times. Once that's out, once you let that out, it's very hard to get it back in.

A (36:04)

That's right.

C (36:05)

Very hard to get it back in. And it's going to take more than just one year of winning for this to really go away. He truly has to turn a corner in what has become an increasingly difficult thing to do for consistency in college athletics. Right. And they got to start running things. Like, I'll tell you a quick story, you know, because Gilio Julio loves Nate Oats at Alabama. Sure, ma'. Am. It's. To me, it's like, man, it's. You have all that money. You're the secondary sport in Alabama. You can lose at the high level that they have. And people are like, cool. What's recruiting look like for football? Right. So I think the dynamics are a little bit different for Nate. I'm not dismissing that. I'm just saying dynamics are different. He loves Nate Oats, and they're running a professional basketball outfit. And I've had a couple. I wasn't there for this game, but people have told me, like, when Alabama came to that building, came at the Smith center, they were like, in all of the operation. Like, in all of the operation. And it's like, well, why Is Alabama doing that and you're not? That's. That's the thing for Carolina basketball that has been driving me nuts. I think it's been driving Carolina basketball fans nuts. And that's why I say, regardless of what happens on the basketball court this year, it goes beyond the wins and the losses for the health of Carolina basketball going forward. If everybody seems like they're finally on the same page, great. Everybody wins. But the minute there's a hint of, well, Jim, you know, you'll start hearing Jim Tanner's contract is not tied to Hubert's contract. You know, all sorts of kind of stuff. It's already gone.

A (37:39)

Right. I think that's an important point, and it's something I've subscribed to for a while. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it's, it's, it's basically true. Once the conversations start.

C (37:55)

Your.

A (37:55)

Your next bad season is likely your last one. And I don't mean if it happens to be your next season. Tom Crane is a great example of this. At Indiana.

C (38:04)

He.

A (38:06)

They were having these conversations about him, like, exactly these conversations, like, if he doesn't win big this year, it might be over. And then he won an outright Big Ten title.

C (38:15)

Okay?

A (38:16)

So they had to keep him. Then he comes back the following year, you know, key player Ogn and Obi gets hurt. They're not that good.

C (38:24)

Boom.

A (38:25)

They got him. Less than a year after winning an outright Big Ten title. They got it, and it's because they had already decided. We don't. We have questions about you. The next time we're not satisfied with what you're doing, it's over. And it wasn't the next year. The next year was great. So you get the next one. And if the next year would have been great, he'd have got the next one. But the next bad one was always going to be the last. And I, I think that's probably true with where we're at right now.

C (38:50)

Well, we saw this play out locally. You don't have to go to Indiana. We saw this play out with Kevin Keats. There you go. As I mentioned, nothing in the triangle happens in a vacuum. And I think to tie this all together, I think Carolina fans might understand where I'm going with this. We. We're reinventing podcast here, Gary. When, when games happen, you know what we do? We take phone calls. Nobody's thought to take phone calls after a game. So during this past basketball season, I forgot what stretch of terrible NC State basketball was. We had somebody call Our sports phone. And he just said, hey, man, Kevin Keats, forever grateful, but get the hell out. Yeah, you know, like that. That line stuck with us. Hey, forever grateful. Thanks for the ACC championship. The first one since 1987. Shout out to BJ Barham, American Aquarium. I'm sure Matt's heard of these guys. He has an AV cart, and he had 87 on the AV cart. He was. He left a space for the next ACC championship. Okay, for those who aren't familiar here in the triangle for the ACC tournament, if you're a certain age, you will remember that they would truck in an AV cart with a television to watch quarterfinal play on a Friday at school. But this is a real thing, right, for the old heads out there. So he waited all those years to finally be able to put a 24 on that AV cart, but, man, they were ready to go after that. They were forever grateful. And I think that's kind of where we're at with Hubert Davis in that Heels fans will forever be grateful to Hubert Davis and that 22 squad because it provided for them the ultimate argument ender. The all. I mean, we used to, you know, look, man, you. You remember, you know, your sports talk radio days, you had a. You had a slow week. All you had to do is say, hey, Carolina fans, Duke fans, it's the rivalry. Whatever. You've Talked to your 8th veteran player from. From the rivalry that week, you know, telling us some stories and whatnot. And then, you know, let's do a call segment. And the easiest one was, hey, so would you guys ever want to meet, like, in a final four or a championship game? Like, wouldn't that, like, end the world? We. And we've danced with it, right? Like, it's. We danced with it, but we finally got it, and we finally have the answer as to what would happen if they met. And it's the argument ender. Doesn't really matter. You know, Duke might win and they might sweep Carolina this year, but they'll still say, yeah, but here's a sad photo of Mike Krzyevsky saying unaccepted, right? So I think Hubert will always be tied to that. That year that run those memories. And the ultimate argument ender in a rivalry that is on its next chapter right now. I actually like the fact that this Duke Carolina rivalry is a little spicy again. This is what would cause you guys to tell me that, like, Louisville and Kentucky was a better rivalry or whatever. Like, get out of here. It was spicier. I get that. But, like, Duke, Carolina got too Cordial with Roy Williams and Mike Krzyevsky, but because of Hubert and now with John and what happened in the final four, it's, it's feisty, man. I mean I was at Cameron Indoor, what two years ago when they were just taunting the crazies and John Shire came over to the crazies and like apologize. Like I miss that. Like make juices flow a little bit. So I think all that is in play here and it shows you once again you can bring a multi super bowl winner to town to coach your football team. I don't care what they say, you can cosplay being a football team, man. What matters here still is basketball. And if you don't believe me, I mean it's, you know, mid August and we're sitting here still talking about Hubert Davis and what's what he needs to do this upcoming season.

A (42:23)

So let me get you out of here with this. Let's go ahead and get it on the record. I've got North Carolina 25th in the top 25 and one.

C (42:30)

Okay.

A (42:30)

Are you confident that they will maintain a number next to their name much of the season and do enough in the postseason to where you and I, or more accurately you and Joe are never talking about a coaching search in March or April.

C (42:50)

So it's interesting. There are two com there there. Sorry, long winded answer. You can't take the radio guy out of me here. The problem the ACC is having relative to success for North Carolina is something that I finally had to admit. Admit league just ain't that good, right? Okay. It's just not that good. I fought it, I really fought it, but it's just not that good. So it's got to be relative. You know, North Carolina has to finish atop the league. They, they can't have any of this business. You, you finished second to Duke. Hey man, it is what it is. You're still atop the league. But if you let State finish ahead of you, you let Louisville finish ahead of you because we saw how that quickly got turned around. Right? Then we're going to have some problems. We're going to have some problems with Hubert Davis, but that can be solved if you go on a deep NCAA tournament run. I'm talking about getting back to the Sweet 16 Elite 8, that kind of stuff. You just can't embarrass yourself this year. And what I would say is embarrassing for North Carolina would be finishing behind State and will Wade in year one. Because if you think State, if you think Carolina fans are keeping an eye on what's happening with John Shire of Duke. Oh, buddy, they are not going to allow you to be second to State, man. They are not going to let that happen. So that's what I would keep an eye on. It's not necessarily maintaining a number because the reason why I say this, it's kind of an out. Sorry. In that I don't think the ACC is going to be good enough for North Carolina to consistently be in the top 25. You see what I'm saying?

A (44:13)

Yeah, you're right.

C (44:14)

It's just they're not going to really be winning anything in the league of note. That's going to get people excited. Okay. So I can tell you this, it's not so much a number, it's what's your non conference looking like? Are you going to do this business again that you're in one possession games against top 25 programs that would easily put you on the other side of the bubble, which was the problem they had last year. You got to win those games in the non conference and obviously you got to finish atop the ACC and then you have to make a deterrent run. You check all those boxes. Hubert Davis is fine. He'll be back here the following year.

A (44:42)

Joe OBI s here. Excellent to be here with me. I appreciate your time. Hopefully, hopefully at least for North Carolina's sake, we don't have to have an uncomfortable conversation down the road. But again the roster is in place and I think most people expected to be a national player of the year if they're still sit sitting with one quadrant one victory heading into the NCAA tournament then, then things have. Have gone wrong. But I, I don't think either one of us are predicting that again, are we?

C (45:16)

No, I'm not. I'm not predicting that this year. I think, I think they got enough new blood. They got, they got dudes, they got dudes this year and I think that's going to be. That'll put him on the right side of those one possession games.

A (45:25)

I would imagine so, buddy. I appreciate your time. I promise. I'm a bother you again. I'm certain at some point. If I can ever help you, don't hesitate to ask.

C (45:34)

Anytime, man.

B (45:36)

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A (46:30)

Big thanks Joe Obvious for joining me to discuss the North Carolina Tar Heels as we get closer and closer to wrapping up this summer Shoot around series. Thanks to you guys for being here. Shout out to Devin Downey. Shouts to Chester, South Carolina. Shout out to Terry Teagle. He's a legend. Huck and Larnell appreciate you guys once again for watching and listening to the College Basketball Podcast. If you subscribe, please go subscribe anywhere you subscribe to podcast Apple Spotify. There's more of us than there are of them. That should be reflected the comments so soon. Till then.

C (47:05)

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Yep.

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