← Eye On College Basketball
Eye On College Basketball
After playing 138 games, Zakai Zeigler has filed a lawsuit for a fifth year in CBB. Should he get it? Boogie Fland's puts Gators in convo to be No. 1
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- [00:00]
Gary Parish
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- [01:19]
Matt Norlander
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- [01:42]
Gary Parish
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- [01:47]
Matt Norlander
Battery for comparison purposes only.
- [01:48]
Gary Parish
Actual range will vary based on several factors.
- [02:04]
Matt Norlander
Hey there, I'm Gary Parish. Welcome back to the CBS Sports I own College Basketball podcast where we sometimes discuss camera fighting dodo birds in leaky black. Matt Norlander is here with me. If you're watching on YouTube, you know what to do to the like button shouts to Brandon Davies. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the CBS Sports college basketball YouTube channel. You should also do that while you're here. Let's get into an interesting story developing in Knoxville. Zakai Ziegler, four year guard at Tennessee, has filed a lawsuit against the ncaa. He is seeking a fifth year of eligibility. Norlander, that is more or less the headline. How seriously should we take it?
- [02:43]
Gary Parish
I think seriously enough. Will this win? I don't know. It's a headline we weren't anticipating. Bracing for, I guess. But in the essence of it, Ziegler is. Is arguing that he should deserve a fifth year of eligibility because there are other players in other situations that are given and granted a fifth year of eligibility. In essence, he's kind of getting at the red shirt rule that exists. So for folks that might not be aware, I think most people listening to the POD probably are generally aware. As things stand, with the somewhat rare exception of waivers, you get five seasons to complete five years to complete four seasons as an NCAA Division 1 athlete. I will pull from Darren Heitner, who's an attorney who speaks on this stuff all the time. He actually tweeted about this shortly before we went live. He put this, you know, he wrapped it up about succinctly, as you could in five graphs. So just brace with me here for about a minute because I'm going to read exactly what he put out there on Wednesday before we dive into what we think should happen and what will happen here. He said that Ziegler's argument comes down to whether or not what the NCAA has right now violates the Sherman Antitrust Act. The case stands apart from other recent eligibility challenges. He references Diego Pavia and some others that got an extra year of eligibility because some of their clock counted toward being at the JUCO level. Ziegler's been at Tennessee his entire career. Heightener continues. But like those cases, Ziegler will first need to get past a threshold issue, which is whether eligibility rules are tied directly to economic harm. In order to convince the judge that this issue falls within the scope of antitrust law. Zigler says he could earn up to 4 million in nil with an additional year of eligibility. Zico's case highlights a unique inequity. Athletes who graduate in four years, like himself, are denied a fifth year of competition, while those who redshirt or take longer to graduate can compete in their fifth year. The complaint critiques that the ncellas red search system, where institutions, not athletes, decides who gets a fifth year of eligibility. Ziegler argues this creates a discriminatory system favoring some athletes over others based on institutional preference. Many have recently speculated that the NCL will soon provide a blanket fifth year to all athletes. No legislation has surfaced if Zigler can prevail with a preliminary injunction, then it could open the floodgates for athletes to enjoy a fifth year of eligibility if it falls within the five year rule, its own application at issue in another case. We'll be watching this one closely. Heitner continued. Athletes are asking me whether this case could lead to them receiving an extra year of eligibility. The judge likely won't rule on a motion for an injunctive relief for some time. And even if Ziegler prevails, the NCAA will likely appeal instead of granting all athletes a fifth year. I know Ziegler has been dragged a bit for this GP because, you know, he played almost four full years. He did have an injury that, that cost him a couple games, but he played what, 138 games. He's seeking for another year. You know, theoretically, if you got the next, the next year, he thinks he could make three, three and a half, $4 million. And so I understand why he's doing this. I. If you had me guess right now, and it would be a guess, not, not a doctor, not a lawyer, I would say this will fail. I am interested in the bigger question that it produces about should we go to five years of eligibility? We can get to that in just a second. Where do you land on this? Do you agree with me, Unlikely, that unlikely, or, you know, you don't even want to go that far? Because at this point when it comes to these cases, I mean, who the hell knows? Some people thought Diego Pavia wouldn't get that extra year and he is going to play college football next season. Where do you land with all this gp?
- [06:23]
Matt Norlander
I'm more in the category of who the hell knows. I mean, yeah, we'll see. I realized to some it, it sounds ridiculous and maybe it is, but rewind 10 years and tell me how ridiculous what I'm about to say sounds. All right. If I'd have told you this 10 years ago, you'd have said this sounds ridiculous. A dude named Boogie is a McDonald's All American, enrolls at an SEC school in exchange for lots of money, plays there for one season, enters the NBA draft, but then withdraws after realizing there's a better chance of him making two plus million dollars playing college basketball next season than there is playing professional basketball next season. So he makes himself available to college basketball programs, and then the reigning national champions, another SEC school, gives him more than $2 million to move to Gainesville. How crazy would that have sounded 10.
- [07:17]
Gary Parish
Years ago when it sounded largely out of stuff? We'll get to Boogie Flynn out of this official before the end of the show, by the way. But to your point, yes, I think that some people are dismissing this as having no chance. Maybe that maybe we get to that point. I'm not saying it can't. But I just also this being in Tennessee is not lost on me. You know, Tennessee has new state legislation that really flies in the face of a lot of current NCAA legislation as it stands to nil compensation for its athletes. And Ziegler having played at Tennessee, I think also plays a part in all of this. So I'm not going to say it has no chance. I would guess he doesn't get the fifth year. And also the timeline on this, I, I'm still waiting for a little bit more clarity on, on I know his representation, I know his lawyers, his attorneys are thinking, hoping that this can get resolved by say, you know, the end of June. But I don't know if this kind of thing would drag on as, as nature of the court system in Tennessee right now. Is this thing going to be done by October that, that I don't even know. Looking for an injunction and how swiftly that may or may not come down, I'm not clear on it. But it on some level, Paris, I am surprised that it took until now to get this. You know, the idea that we've had nil compensation for high major athletes. And I'm talking about Ziegler's situation specifically. I'm not talking about the handful of players who played at lower levels in junior college or D2 etc and have some of whom have successfully appealed and won that additional year of eligibility. I'm talking about an active four year revenue sport athlete lobbying or in this case literally trying to litigate out getting a bonus fifth year. In some ways it is surprising it took until May 20, 2025 for us to arrive at this point.
- [09:01]
Matt Norlander
Let me read you a statement from Zakai's, the firm that's representing him and then I'll expand on my point from the firm. Here's the statement. The lawsuit alleges that the NCAA's rule permitting only four seasons of competition within the five year eligibility window is an unlawful restraint of trade under federal and state antitrust laws. We have requested a preliminary injunction to allow Zakai to compete in the upcoming season while pursuing his graduate studies. We look forward to a swift resolution to this matter so that Zakai can begin preparing for next season. That's the end of the statement. Here's my point again. I realize this sounds ridiculous to some people. I have Twitter. I look at It. But don't ever forget the NCAA used to say you can't take any money. And then that was challenged in court. And now everybody can take money. The NCAA used to say juco seasons count towards your eligibility. Then that was challenged in court. Now juco seasons do not count. This is just the next step. Why not give it a shot? And I don't blame Zakai Ziegler at all for doing are his realistic options for next season. Play in the G league for less than a million or play for a top 20 team and sold out Arenas for two or three or four million dollars.
- [10:22]
Gary Parish
Theoretically. Like go anywhere around the globe and try and make a living. Like there's also that as well. But his quite clearly his best financial option, if it's even available, the one that he's trying to pursue, is to try and remain in college basketball for one more year and in doing so make more in one season than he will probably for any other year for the rest of his life. Yeah.
- [10:41]
Matt Norlander
So why wouldn't you try that? Particularly like I can't imagine it's anything out of his pocket right now. I can't imagine he's the one that has to file anything. Like it's, it's, it's, it's. Why not take a shot at it? And you know, I see somebody in the chat ask the question, why do guys think they can get a fifth year of eligibility for no reason? Like I could just flip that question. Why does the NCAA think they can prevent somebody from playing a fifth year? Take a shot at answering that.
- [11:13]
Gary Parish
Just because the NCAA is the group of hundreds and hundreds of schools that agreed upon its own, its own so called laws. And this has been.
- [11:23]
Matt Norlander
They're not laws, they're rules.
- [11:24]
Gary Parish
You know what I mean? They're.
- [11:26]
Matt Norlander
I do know what you mean.
- [11:27]
Gary Parish
But like they're bylaws. So. Yeah. And for decades and decades, this is when you sign paperwork to go play at an institution, you're signing up for certain bylaws that apply. And this is how it's been. That's, you know, to play devil's ass. That's what I would say.
- [11:43]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, that, that you know how.
- [11:45]
Gary Parish
Because that's.
- [11:45]
Matt Norlander
Okay.
- [11:45]
Gary Parish
Hold on. At some point, like I understand why a lot of this stuff is getting litigated and I don't even blame Ziegler for doing it. But there do need to be like this can't just continuously and forever be a thing where college athletics and the ncaa. And this is why it's trying to get some sort of government Oversight and has been forever. But like, it, it's. It's okay and rational and reasonable to say we are going to have a certain window of time in which you are eligible to play college athletics under these parameters. And it's that, you know, okay, if we go to five, are we going to go to six? If we go to six, are we going to go to seven? You know, if we go to seven, we're going to go to eight. You know, at some point there, there does need to be very rigid, unbreakable parameters and bylaws on when you can play and what. And what it is here. I'm not opposed personally, I'm not opposed to the idea that Ziggler should go for and even receive a fifth year. I actually, I wrote about this and I said on the show GP a couple years ago, I actually think college basketball specifically would benefit by having five years of eligibility for everyone. And whether that means you get rid of the. The red shirt rule, which is the alleged potential discussion that could come soon. And if they do that, we'll see. But I think the sport is benefited by having more players with more experience. Older the basketball is better the older it is on average. So I'm in favor of this. I don't necessarily think that Ziegler will win out, but that's another discussion altogether.
- [13:11]
Matt Norlander
I'm not, I'm not against rules. I'm. You just. What we have learned over the past several years is that your rules better be legal. They better be able to stand up to legal scrutiny. The. Well, that's the way it's always been. Doesn't work anymore. Like strict amateurism was the way it had always been up until people said, we're challenging this in court. And now here we are, the JUCO seasons counted as eligibility. Yeah, that's the way it's always been. Well, let's. Is that legal? Is that. Let's challenge that. Let's see where we go. This is the. Honestly, you know what? This is, in addition to everything else I've said, not too dissimilar to what the current administration is doing. And I'm not trying to get political, but it just read a little bit. And what you'll learn is the strategy on some level is just get as much stuff, regardless of how ridiculous it might sound or how questionable it might be. Get it in front of a judge, see what happens. That's what Zaki Ziegler is trying to do right now. Get it in front of a judge and see what happens. Because I know that In a traditional sense, this sounds bananas to some people, but if the argument from the law firm is this rule is illegal, this, this, this should not be allowed. And I, I, I could at least I'm open minded enough to, I'm not smart enough to know how a judge is going to rule on this, but I'm open minded enough to know that if I were Zakai Ziegler and this is what I wanted to do, and, and I had the legal help to, to put me in a position to do it, I would take a shot at it because quite literally millions of dollars might be at stake.
- [14:58]
Gary Parish
Yeah, they very well, they very well might be. I also saw someone point out that the actual, the court that, that this case is being filed at was also the same one, that there was some, and I'm not familiar with the case, I'm just bringing this up for reference. There was a baseball player that also sought an injunction and that injunction was not granted. So whether or not that winds up being something that matters in this one, I'm not entirely sure. I don't know if it would be the same judge or what, what would happen there. But this seems like a steep hill to climb. Doesn't mean he can't get there. I would lean probably he does not win. But bigger picture, I do think that allowing for five years of eligibility is a good thing for college athletics. Particularly college football doesn't suffer from the same thing college basketball does in terms of having familiar players year over year. Because it's college football, you literally have to stay like it is a rule that has been challenged in the past and did not win, that you have to stay for at least three years. And whether or not that changes, we'll, we'll see. But that was famously challenged by Maurice Claret more than 20 years ago at this point. And that did not succeed. You got to be at least three years removed from your high school graduation in order to declare for the NFL draft. College basketball, obviously, you know, you've got one and done players and that has its pros and its cons. But we have benefited the past few years, the sport has from the, the bonus Covid season having players essentially given five years to compete because the 2021 season was just, you know, it was littered with cancellations and, and across all of NCAA sports you just, you weren't playing complete full seasons. And so rightfully so, the NCAA voted to allow that season to just basically be taken off the books. Now this past season was the end of the bonus Covid era, but I would argue that having more 22 and depending on when you, you know, get into college, sometimes, yes, it can be 23 year olds in the sport is a benefit. Now the drawback to that is this. If transfer rules are not going to change and we don't really have any reason to believe that they significantly would frankly genius out of the bottle. Players can transfer, they don't have to sit. And the only thing really holding you back from doing that is, you know, in alleged pursuant of an academic undergraduate degree, every time you transfer, your credits don't transfer with you completely across the board. And that can really hinder your, your progress toward an undergraduate degree. But other than that, players aren't many of them. At least you look at the numbers gp they're not doing that in pursuant of a degree, they're doing it in pursuant of can I make 300,000, 600,000, 1.4 million, 2.5 billion the next time I transfer there? The only drawback to me to having five years of eligibility is you would, the portal, so called chaos would just ceaselessly continue. You would have all these players with one additional year of eligibility and no mechanism in place to incentivize them to not do that. And by that I mean, you know, there wouldn't be any. The first time you transfer, it's, you're cool. But the second time you got to sit out a year, et cetera, et cetera. There's nothing like that that's on the table. And so you do, I think, inherently promote even more transactions in college basketball. And with that just comes, you know, more frenzy every April. But I would, I would argue that, that it's worth the trade off and, and allowing five years of eligibility. And if take the rest, I'm willing to hear other arguments against it. But broadly speaking, I've arrived at a point where I'm in favor of having five years of eligibility for every NCAA athlete. And that's just it. You, when you enter college, that's the deal. You get five years. And if you get five years and you're healthy every single day of your entire college career, awesome. But if for whatever reason, your freshman year and your junior year, you suffer season ending injuries and you only wind up playing three years out of five, that's the breaks as well. We obviously can't legislate against unforeseen injury issues as well. Where do you land on this? Because I don't think we've ever talked about, or at least we haven't too deep on the pod. But since Ziegler's going for a fifth one. I do want to know where you are on that. Do you like the four and five as it stands now, or would you be in favor of five years for everyone? But that eliminates any kind of red shirt period where the second you play, off you go and you get five years. Or, you know, if you want to be done after one and you're a college basketball player, obviously, go chase your.
- [19:28]
Matt Norlander
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- [20:02]
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- [20:31]
Matt Norlander
I It's so complicated because I think what we have learned, I think is that you can't just say this is the way it is because we say this is the way it is.
- [20:41]
Gary Parish
But you know what? I disagree because I think that we are in the next couple of years, I think we are going to get to a spot somewhere way somehow there will be an and there will be certain things in place. Like if they were to do that I there will there will be either government intervention on it or you've got this. And let's not get too far afield of all this. There's there's this thing that's been circulating at the powerful level that was reported on earlier this week by Ross Dellinger that frankly I don't think isn't even going to come to pass. But there has even been suggestions through rough drafts circulated among athletic directors and commissioners, like where basically it says you have to sign up for this by this new structure that we're going to run. You know, college sports in is particularly at the high major level. And if you don't sign up for this and basically sign away your Rights, then you are. You will be at risk of actual expulsion from the conferences. Now, I don't think.
- [21:31]
Matt Norlander
Stupid.
- [21:32]
Gary Parish
I know, Paris. I don't think we're going to get there. But what I do think that signals is there are going to be enough people within college athletics and even by actual lawmakers in this country that get us to a point where we will have certain. By new bylaws in place that. I know what you're saying. Like, every, Every single thing we do, can it not be broke, eventually broken and challenged in court? Call me naive if you want. I do think that we are getting to a point where we're going to have some sort of new set of bylaws and everything in college athletics that will not as easily be challenged and winnable in court once we get through this phase over the next one, two, three years. So I just wanted to, you know.
- [22:19]
Matt Norlander
A lot, A lot of this is reporting from Ross Dellinger, who is terrific, like, like the best of the best. But if you read the whole story, eventually Ross gets to legal analyst. Do you know what the legal analysts say? I don't even know if this is enforceable.
- [22:31]
Gary Parish
Right.
- [22:31]
Matt Norlander
All right. All right. And. And like, let's just. Let's just play this out. Hey, Michigan, we need you to sign this to agree that you will operate your athletic department in lockstep with the house settlement. Yeah, no, we don't want to. And you can never challenge us in any way whatsoever about anything whatsoever. Yeah, we're not signing that. Okay, well, we're gonna. We might kick you out of the Big Ten, which is never gonna happen. Okay, no, you're not. So shut up. You're not kicking me out of the Big Ten.
- [23:02]
Gary Parish
Or the, or the reverse of that is Florida State and Clemson don't want.
- [23:07]
Matt Norlander
To say, please kick us out. Yeah, that's the other one. Florida State's gonna be like, we ain't signing. Kick us out. I dare you. Yeah, so, like, why don't we even talk? It's also silly. And I don't care about when people start. Well, you know, these young people, when they transfer, they leave, they lose college courses, and they don't transfer and translate and blah. I, I care nothing about that. I, I have young children who will be in college. Some go ahead and tell you, if after their freshman year, somebody offers them $4 million to transfer, we're transferring, all right? And I don't care if they lose every credit that they had. We're taking the $4 million and we're transferring. Maybe to BYU. Although I'd have to think about it.
- [23:50]
Gary Parish
All right, you're not. That's off the table.
- [23:52]
Matt Norlander
I would not let my kids go to byu. I shouldn't say that. I might let my kids go to byu. We'll. We'll see. We'll see. Call me. Make an offer. All right.
- [24:02]
Gary Parish
This podcast is going in a wonderful direction.
- [24:04]
Matt Norlander
Make an offer. I bet you AJ the bands I didn't think he was ever ended up at byu about five years. So make me an offer. We'll see. So I don't care about that. Like, and I don't even think actual people care about that. It's just something people say, here's where I'm at, and then we can move on. If I'm Zakai Ziegler, this is more or less the question I'm asking. There is a major university that wants to enroll me. They'll accept me and they'll allow me to be in grad school. They'll keep me on scholarship. There is an entity that wants to pay me a lot of money to play basketball for this university. So the university wants me. These people were willing to pay me to do this job. How are you legally right to tell me I can't do it? Let's get in court, let's. And let's let the lawyers get rich. That's, that's, that's where we're at. And I am fascinated because what we have learned in recent years is though we think about all these things in a traditional way, when you put them in front of a judge, the judge often goes, yeah, this is crazy. Why did you think you could do this? Why did you think you could enforce this? So why not take a shot? And I'm fascinated to see where it goes. I don't even have any interest in making a prediction. I have no idea where this goes. But I can at a very, on a very basic level I can understand. I could understand the argument and on every level I can understand the Kai Ziegler's motivation for doing.
- [25:33]
Gary Parish
Yeah, I do. I do as. I do as well. I don't. Again, I. You're not putting a prediction out. I'll just put. I'll put a half hearted one out. I, I don't think he wins, but oh boy, if he does, then that gets really interesting in a hurry. I actually think it would Hasten getting to five years of eligibility for NCAA Division 1 athletes. But we'll see and we'll see how long it takes to, by the way, for this to resolve. You Know, he's seeking a fifth year, you know, for next year. And him being a grad student actually helps his case in this regard. Like if you're an under, like undergrad summer classes and pushing toward, you know, all that stuff that, that gets going in June around the country for the most part. But when you're a graduate, like he's got the summer to, to kind of wait and find out now you'd have to get. Almost any team would take the guy Sickler, like if he, if he actually wins this and comes back to college basketball, like probably would be one of the 20 best players in the sport and, and we'll see. But I am surprised this took this long. You know, this, this kind of thing seemed ripe for challenging anytime in the past three, four, five years, if not even before that. But here we are and it happening in Tennessee. I think it's no big coincidence that State has, has been one that have been at the forefront here in recent months of challenging it basically like it, it's already trying to operate in defiance of a forthcoming house case settlement, revenue distribution and, and the stuff we talked about a bit on the show earlier this week with Deloitte being the arbiter for a lot of these nil deals and Tennessee, Tennessee's laws, as I understand it, as they're written right now, are set to kind of operate in a little bit of defiance of that. So we'll, we'll see where this goes. And gosh, never a dull week in college athletics with this. I mean, I understand like a lot of people are just so over this. Definitely from a college sports fan perspective, there is serious, serious nil litigation fatigue. I don't fault you whatsoever. But the reality is like these kinds of stories and these kinds of decisions, lawsuits, all that they are rewriting how high major and mainstream college athletics will operate, you know, for the next generation, essentially. So I get that people get a little bit exhausted by this stuff and we can move on. But, but they are, they are important stories and they, and they, they will kind of track the course for where we're going over the next six, six to 12 months and beyond.
- [28:02]
Matt Norlander
I'm glad you said that because I know sometimes talking about these things just matter of factly the way I do it could come across as like, hey, you make a living covering the sport and it is chaotic right now and you can, you know, jump on your podcast and act like whatever, but like we're the fans and we don't. This is not fun or as fun as it used to be. I don't even know who's on my team anymore. There's got to be a better way to do this. And you don't seem like you care. I never want to come across that way. I understand fans frustration. I don't. Like, when I was a kid, there would be an awesome high school basketball player from Memphis named Elliot Perry, and he would commit to the Tigers, and he was going to be there four years, and there was no scenario where he was ever transferring. For like, that was just. I grew up watching that guy. My kids don't get that anymore. My kids could not name a single University of Memphis basketball player right now. Not one. Not one. When I was their age, I knew every Memphis basketball player, every Louisville basketball player. All right? My kids can't name one Memphis basketball player right now. The only person they would know connected to that program is Penny Hardaway. That's not good. I understand all the frustration, but this is the byproduct. Everything we're dealing with right now is. And this is perhaps an oversimplification, but you get the point. It's the byproduct of decades of.
- [29:33]
Gary Parish
It is. This is not an oversimplification. The NCAA pushed the idea of amateurism and all of this for literally decades, and it was the status quo. And then we way too late evolved to a point where a lot of these things should have been challenged, were challenged. The NCAA lost. The NCAA has gotten his ass kicked in court time and time again. And so that's why this is happening. Sorry.
- [29:58]
Matt Norlander
You summarized it perfectly. This is the byproduct of decades of having rules that they tried to enforce, that once people decided, yo, there's too much money being thrown around and the student athletes deserve some of it. Let's start getting this stuff in front of judges. Let's start getting lawsuits. This is the byproduct of. They tried to enforce unenforceable things for decades, and now it's all coming home to roost, for lack of a better cliche. And so I. But I never want it to appear like I don't understand the fans frustration and how some are rolling their eyes at the transactional nature of. Of everything. This is all new. It is nothing like what most of us grew up with. It is chaotic. I. I'm understanding of all of that, but this is a problem that the NCAA created over decades, and now we're just in the process of. Of fixing it. And this is another step in figuring out exactly how we're going to do that. Let's move on. So this Kai Ziegler thing was a big headline from Tuesday, but the biggest headline from Tuesday was Boogie Flan, former McDonald's All American Arkansas Razorback, formally University of Florida. We talked about it on Monday because this was expected, but we'll circle back to it now because our buddy Sam Vasini had an interesting tweet. I'll get Norlander's thoughts on it next, but first let's grab a word from our partners.
- [31:26]
C
This episode is brought to you by State Farm Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.
- [32:20]
Matt Norlander
As expected, 2024 McDonald's All American Boogie Flynn committed to Florida on Tuesday. He's the second high profile transfer to commit to the Gators. They lost three starting guards from their national championship team. They've now replaced two of them with high level transfers. I moved them up to number six in the top 25 and one and keeping Houston number one. That's the range I'm in now. Our old buddy San Versini who would hopefully join us here in a couple minutes is he tweeted late last night that it would be hard to have anybody other than Florida number one heading into to next season. Now I don't. I obviously don't agree with that entirely because it was pretty easy for me to have Houston number one. I just kept them there and I've got four other teams I guess in front of Florida. But Sam is the type of guy like he's so smart about this stuff that he at least makes me take a second look at it. Like I don't, I don't pay attention to most opinions when it comes to rankings or anything else. Or at least I. You know what I mean. But like Sam is. Sam is the type of person that would make me at least take a second look at it. So where do you fall on this?
- [33:39]
Gary Parish
Definitely not.
- [33:40]
Matt Norlander
So where would you fall on this? Florida should. The Gators with the projected lineup that does include Alex Condon returning to Gainesville. That's not official yet, but it is expected.
- [33:51]
Gary Parish
Yeah.
- [33:53]
Matt Norlander
Florida number one, Florida number six. Florida in between. Where you at on the Gators?
- [33:56]
Gary Parish
All right, here's where I'm at. And we did, yes, we did talk something. We basically talked about this on Monday. Monday. Because it was at that point felt inevitable. And the question was, would it be done by Tuesday or would, you know, would this not get done and finished until end of the week? So we wanted to take a stab early. And then lo and behold, I think really within 24 hours, it was, it was out there. He assigned his deal and sources tell me that the nil deal, by the way, is north of 2 million, under 3 million for. For Boogie Flan. So in essence, you can look at it this way. Florida traded Denzel Aberdeen for Boogie Fland, which Aberdeen's a good player, but Flan's a better player. Like, that's, that is a big upgrade and to me puts Florida top 10 for sure. I wouldn't have them right now and you know, I don't do my full on rankings, as people know, until October. I would not have Florida number one. I don't think I'd have them two or three, maybe four, I guess, you know, with the idea that Condon will eventually decide to come back to Florida, I would say you can probably go as high as 3, 4, and really no lower than 8, 9. I was gonna have Sam come on the show. Trivia time. What time you think it is in Sydney, Australia right now, where Sam lives? Well, actually, you know, it's not now, so you got even a better one.
- [35:20]
Matt Norlander
I know it's not now.
- [35:21]
Gary Parish
It's not now. What time. Just what time do you think is in Sydney, Australia right now?
- [35:25]
Matt Norlander
I used to have a pretty good grasp for this because I would, I would figure out when I could have Sam on like, as a guest at like 4:15 Central when I had an afternoon show. And if I remember correctly, he would be waking up around middle of the afternoon. So I'm going to say right now in Australia. I'm going to say right now it is.
- [35:52]
Gary Parish
Sydney, Australia. Just to be clear, Australia is not one entire time zone.
- [35:55]
Matt Norlander
No, Australia is one.
- [35:56]
Gary Parish
If we went to Australia and say what time is it in. In New York right now? They wouldn't say what time in America right now. No, no, let's respect time zones, please.
- [36:04]
Matt Norlander
I'm not Going to respect Australia's multiple time zones. I'm not going to trivia time for both of us.
- [36:09]
Gary Parish
How many time zones do we think Australia has?
- [36:12]
Matt Norlander
I mean, they can't have more than one and a half.
- [36:14]
Gary Parish
No, I think I'm. I'm going three. I'm going three. Yep.
- [36:19]
Matt Norlander
They don't deserve three.
- [36:20]
Gary Parish
They don't know what they do. Sneaky. Big Australia. It's sneaky if.
- [36:24]
Matt Norlander
If Australia can have three time zones. You tell me. You tell me why Zakai Ziegler can't play a fifth year.
- [36:30]
Gary Parish
This is why you come to the pod. What time is it in Sydney right now?
- [36:33]
Matt Norlander
I think it's 3:36am it is.
- [36:37]
Gary Parish
It is merely 11:36pm But Sam couldn't come on the show. I did ask him. I was gonna have him hop on the show and defend it and surprise you, but. But it was a no go for him. He did send a text, though.
- [36:50]
Matt Norlander
He's probably. He's probably. If it's 11, he's probably watching Stephen.
- [36:53]
Gary Parish
Colbert right now with the Criterion Collection. Honestly, no.
- [36:58]
Matt Norlander
He's probably breaking down an Israeli prospect who you've never heard of.
- [37:04]
Gary Parish
Also entirely possible. Entirely possible.
- [37:07]
Matt Norlander
I mean this sincerely about Sam Bassini, who I love.
- [37:11]
Gary Parish
We'll try and get him on before the end of the show, but he said he couldn't be here. What do you want from me?
- [37:14]
Matt Norlander
I don't have any idea how he knows everything that he knows. Like, he knows everything about everything.
- [37:20]
Gary Parish
Sounds like a shot to me.
- [37:22]
Matt Norlander
No, I'm being serious. I'm. I'm saying I could right now be like, hey, Sam, what do you think about Clemson next year? And he would intelligently be able to talk about that. And then I could say, all right, but what about the Pistons? And he could knock that out too. Just any. Like, you could just. And then I could say, and what. What's that sport you watch down there in one of Australia's time zones?
- [37:42]
Gary Parish
Tell me about Australia Rules Football.
- [37:44]
Matt Norlander
He'd know everything about that, too. I'd never.
- [37:46]
Gary Parish
Big ascendant fan, I think. Yeah. Yeah.
- [37:48]
Matt Norlander
Oh, and like, I could be like, hey, have you. Have you been watching the studio on Apple tv? Plus, he would know everything about that, too. He just knows everything about everything.
- [37:58]
Gary Parish
I just talk about Senior for the next 15 minutes and call it a show.
- [38:01]
Matt Norlander
Yes, yes. Like he made. He.
- [38:04]
Gary Parish
He.
- [38:05]
Matt Norlander
He's the type of person I could. I could. I believe I could call and, and say, I need you with me to talk about the Grizzlies for the next 20 minutes, I need you on in 60 seconds. And he would be able to break down, like contract stuff. He would know about their tax situation. He just knows this stuff and I don't know how he does that.
- [38:29]
Gary Parish
All right, so you're about to put Florida number one? Is that what you're getting at?
- [38:32]
Matt Norlander
I'm just telling you, when he tweeted that, it made me go, am I a little low? And ultimately I said, no, I'm going to keep Houston 1, St. John's 2, BYU 3, Purdue 4, UConn 5, Florida 6. But that was just interesting to me like that. I mean this sincerely. This is. He's. He is somebody whose opinion on basketball I respect. So when he tweets, I think you got to have Florida number one, it makes me at least go, I should look at that.
- [38:57]
Gary Parish
All right, well, here's what he said. He said, my pitch for Florida is that I think they're set to almost certainly be the best offense in the country and dominate the possession battle every game. They're going to have a real shot creation and transition chances with Fland and Lee being Xavian Lee, of course, with both being able to shoot and play on and off the ball. I do agree with Sam on that. They're going to absolutely obliterate the offensive glass with Condon Hauk, Chin Liu and Hand Logdon. So even when they do miss, they're going to get a ton of second chances. I do agree with him on that. Condon should be a 1510 guy and I think Hauk was their best player outside of Clayton this past season. It was a good shot. He's a first round pick, especially if he shoots it. Well, I actually like him as a draft prospect even more than Condon. I like the AJ Brown pickup as a sneaky one in the portal from Ohio. He and C.J. ingram should give them enough flexibility to play the how Condon front court lineups that were lethal this past season should be even better next year. I am worried on defense. I think Elijah Martin was way better than almost anyone gave him credit for. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I agree it was a joke. He didn't make all defense in the SEC over Sakai Ziegler. Lee is actually pretty awful on that end, but I think Fland is actually tougher on that ending that he gets credit for being. And with Ingram in the front court, I think they should have enough bodies to make it work. That's his case for Florida. He also said he's lower on Houston's freshman class than most, but does See him as a top 10 team, he would have Purdue number two. But Florida, he likes number one because their lineups that they have set up here allow them to be more flexible overall. So I think Florida has to be preseason top 10 at this point. I think Flan's addition, we mentioned this on the Monday show, clearly leads it toward that. I would resist number one, maybe number two just in this regard. Want to see how Lee and Flynn play together like coming in. We just, you know, Lee has never been a high major player so we'll see if he can be a guy who up transfers and be immediately impactful. See how Fland adapts to new. A new environment. I do expect how to make a jump, but I just want to see that front court lineup. Can they collectively elevate? Because in my opinion the reason why Florida won the national championship, although there were many of them, was the way the three guards who are now gone played with each other and balanced all of that with what Florida put together in the front court there. And a lot of it was also like Clayton was just unafraid to take and often made really big, really tough shots. He's now gone and you know, Martin being tremendous on the defensive perimeter. That's why I would just. Again, Florida is now a Final four contender. I wouldn't go as high as to be number one. But now that Flint is officially committed and we can, we can frame them properly, you've got them six. Frankly, I think that's more than okay. Doesn't mean Florida can't be number one. Of course it can. Of course it can. It can ascend at that point. And right now, unless I'm mistaken, I believe by nature, if you put in Florida 6, I think you now have them as the best team heading into the season out of the mighty SEC.
- [41:47]
Matt Norlander
I do. I got Houston, St. John's BYU, Purdue, Yukon, Florida, in that order, followed by Texas Tech, Michigan, Duke and ucla. I'm a believer. Obviously, if somebody wants to put them number one, I, I won't call them an idiot. I, I think you could make a reasonable argument for Houston, for Florida, for St. John's for Purdue. I've got Purdue at 4. Purdue fans have started to abandon me a little bit. They took me in as one of their own in the Zach Ed era. They've started to abandon me a little bit because I have dared move the boilermaker.
- [42:21]
Gary Parish
I want, I don't wanna, I don't want to take us off course here, but by the way, Zach Edie, first team, all rookie, that's right. Idiots that logged on the Internet for three years insisting this dude couldn't play basketball. Hey, you still look like idiots. Continue.
- [42:32]
Matt Norlander
Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Jalen Wells, fellow Memphis Grizzly, also first team, all rookie. So I do think we will have split votes in the preseason AP poll. It will not be a unanimous.
- [42:47]
Gary Parish
I like that. Yeah, I want, I do too. I want a diversity of thought when it comes to that. We get. Although we'll see because usually like mid May. Okay, we got enough differentiating but it feels like the closer we get to that preseason AP top 25 coming out group think tends to take over as is the nature of group think, I guess. But I hope that we have three, four, five different teams receiving number one votes.
- [43:08]
Matt Norlander
I bet you, I bet you we get at least three different teams get number one votes in the preseason AP poll. And I, I like that as well. You bring up Lee having never played at the high major level before. That's obviously true. I'm a believer in him. I'm obviously a believer in boogie flan. I'm a believer in Florida. I've got him sixth. But it's just never automatically sure how these guys are going to translate to the SEC or to the ACC or to the Big 12 or to the Big 10 if they've never been there before. Big East. You could say the same thing about Aid Mahaney. Like remember when he committed to Yukon? That was considered a big deal. Yeah, like I'm pretty sure we talked about that. It didn't really matter much at UConn. You want another one? Remember when Kate Tyson committed to North Carolina? He averaged 16 points at Belmont. Oh man. You put him next to so and so and so and so. And now he didn't do anything at North Carolina. Like he didn't matter. And so like I'm not predicting that but I do think it's important to always like be aware that the idea that these quote mid major guys are just gonna go to the high major level and, and be instant impact, big impact guys. It does happen a lot. Dalton Connect is a great example of that. Chaz Lanier is a great example of that. But it doesn't always happen. And just you know, keep that in mind.
- [44:37]
Gary Parish
Agreed. Before we get out of here, just a few quick just headlines and then we can, we can pack it up here. Arizona, UCLA are going to play next season at the Clippers new building and that game will specifically it's part of the hall of Fame series but they it's going to be a Bill Walton theme game, which is awesome. Love to see that. That's going to be really tremendous. That's going to be on November 14th. So that came down on Tuesday. I reported that Pat Garrity, who played at Notre dame in the 90s, was a top 20 pick, played for a decade in the NBA. He's going to be the GM of the men's and women's basketball teams at Notre Dame and be the primary sports administrator for men's basketball at Notre Dame. The only other person who does that, that and all of high major college basketball, if not all of college basketball, is Baker Dunleavy at Villanova. So we'll see. Notre Dame's looking for a little bit of a bump there. They've been, you know, under 500 the first two seasons under Mike Shrewsbury. But, but a notable thing there, Kentucky basketball. I did see this in the chat. Well, of course we're going to mention this landed Braden Hawthorne. He was the last uncommitted top 40 prospect in the class of 2025. He committed to Mark Pope's program on Tuesday night. So how impactful he will be, honestly, remains to be seen. The majority of players that are going to be, you would think the most impactful, you would think, are guys that they, they added in the portal. Plus they already have, you know, the likes of Malachi Marino there. But nonetheless, Kentucky got a good pledge and I think now lands as the 11th best class in 2025 per 247Sports. So that was a notable one as well. And then I think that's the majority of notable stuff since we, since we last talked. I will say there, there is, I think Darian Williams since we podcasted, I can't remember. But he's, I think it's been official since we last podcasted, but he is, he is looking into his next spot. I mentioned Ohio State was considered a favorite. I think OSU is still hopeful. But Darren Williams was on a visit to Kansas on Tuesday, I was told and the four schools that were mentioned to me with Darren Williams over the past 36 hours were Ohio State, Kansas, NC State, which is interesting because if NC State gets haggard, you would think they wouldn't get Williams. But keep an eye on that. And then I was told Duke was poking around on Williams. To what level, I don't know. That is actually surprising to me because as we told you on Monday, Cedric Coward gonna pursue the NBA draft. Dame Sar is expected to commit to Duke and we'll see when that happens there. So I don't know how Seriously involved. Duke is with Darren Williams, but I had a pretty good source tell me that they at least express some sort of level of interest. So that's. I think that's probably the next big, like, flan committed. Dylan Williams is probably the next big name. We're waiting on a decision on. We'll see. And as I referenced earlier in the show, gp, you know, for some of these schools, they are going to begin summer classes, off season workouts, like the first week of June. And so if you're. These are undergraduate players. And so you gotta. You gotta make a pick so you can get on campus and actually enroll in classes so you're eligible to practice. You know, those are rules that still do matter. And theory.
- [47:41]
Matt Norlander
We'll see about. We'll see about that.
- [47:47]
Gary Parish
Bare minimum, if you want to play college athletics, you should be enrolled in college courses. I feel like that is something that would stand up to litigation and intense scrutiny at the legal level. That's just. That's just me, though.
- [48:00]
Matt Norlander
So I. I'm not certain. I mean, who knows? Like. But I. Yes, the next lawsuit will be. Somebody will.
- [48:06]
Gary Parish
Why do I have to go to class? Why?
- [48:09]
Matt Norlander
Oh, trust me, that's already been asked a million times for decades.
- [48:14]
Gary Parish
That gets Us Weekly. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, yeah.
- [48:17]
Matt Norlander
I had one coach tell me a few years ago, he said they took a transfer from a school and then they, like, you know, got the, the young man's schedule in front of him. And he was like, what. What's going on here? They were like, well, like, that's your schedule. He's like, what does this mean? Like, this building? And they're like, well, that's where your class is. He's like, I gotta go to a building. He was blown away that he was gonna have to go somewhere and sit around other people because that's not what he did at his other school. So that whole why do I even have to go to class thing, that's a. That's a real thing. But the next lawsuit, here's the next headline. We'll get it in two weeks. So and so has filed a lawsuit against the NCAA asking why he needs to be enrolled to start at the Division 1 level.
- [49:06]
Gary Parish
Can't I just attend the school in theory?
- [49:09]
Matt Norlander
Can't I just, like. Can I just, like, put a bumper sticker on my car that says go? That says Big Blue Nation and start for Kentucky? Why do I have to be enrolled? Let's get that in front of a judge.
- [49:24]
Gary Parish
Seriously? Oh, God, yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, that I think that's. I think. I think that's a show.
- [49:31]
Matt Norlander
I hope so. Shouts to David Downey. Shouts to Chester, S.C. shouts to Terry Teagle. Legend Huck Larnell. Thank you guys once again for watching listening to the Ion College Basketball Podcast. If you're not subscribed, please subscribe anyway. You subscribe to podcast, Apple, Spotify. There is more of us than there are of them. That needs to be reflected in the comments. So do that. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
- [49:54]
Gary Parish
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I need that hamstring diagnosis.
- [50:06]
Matt Norlander
I do have an official hamstring diagnosis. I was a patient. I was a patient at Ortho south on Ortho.
- [50:14]
Gary Parish
Patient doctor confidentiality. And tell us who. Who diagnosed you while you're at it.
- [50:20]
Matt Norlander
Dr. Krish.
- [50:21]
Gary Parish
Okay, there we go. Actually, I think you're allowed, right? If you're the. If you're the patient, you're allowed to name the doctor. That's how it goes, right?
- [50:27]
Matt Norlander
Of course you are. Yes, yes, yes. I have a partially torn hamstring.
- [50:35]
Gary Parish
Okay, but you said grade one on the show. Is it grade one?
- [50:39]
Matt Norlander
I literally looked at the doctor who I'm familiar with our kids go to his granddaughter goes to school with my young boy. So, yeah, I know this man. And I was like, listen, I'm gonna have to publicly say what happened to me. What is the accurate diagnosis? So where. If it gets back to you, you won't say, ah, he's exaggerating. Give me the actual diagnosis. He said, you have a partially torn left hamstring. It is not detached from the bone. We will start physical therapy and you should be back to hitting balls into the woods in about. But I will. I will start physical therapy because I slipped walking up my stairs, by the.
- [51:24]
Gary Parish
Way, that also hit me. I. It wasn't going down the steps. You were walking up the steps. You were going against gravity. And you still. Normally something like this happens. Like, you know, you're going, you're out of control. You're going. Your forward momentum carries. You're. You're fighting against the very laws of nature, and you still tore your hamstring.
- [51:46]
Matt Norlander
It's rough. On Sunday night, a tornado touched down about 500 yards. No, but they confirmed it yesterday. A literal Tornado touched down 500 yards from my house. I survived that no problem. But I tore my hamstring walking up the stairs.
- [52:05]
Gary Parish
I. So technically, it's a grade one. You didn't get.
- [52:11]
Matt Norlander
The grades are, I believe, strains like grade one strain, Grade two string. Grade three strain.
- [52:17]
Gary Parish
I think grade three is straight off the bone.
- [52:19]
Matt Norlander
Steph Curry had grade one strain. Aaron Gordon reportedly had grade two strain. I'm past the strains. I'm partially. I'm past the strains. I'm partially torn.
- [52:31]
Gary Parish
I think a strain is a tear. I think that's the same thing. I think it's the same.
- [52:35]
Matt Norlander
I don't take it up with Dr. Christian.
- [52:38]
Gary Parish
You're a doctor.
- [52:41]
Matt Norlander
I'm telling you, there is no way Steph Curry could run around basketball. I'd see people still questioning this guy. Like, why couldn't Steph Curry give it a go? I can barely get to my car.
- [52:53]
Gary Parish
Imagine you have to like, are you like. Are you like Leo and the Wolf of Wall Street?
- [53:00]
Matt Norlander
Remind me exactly what that means.
- [53:02]
Gary Parish
You don't remember. He's on the loads, he's like crawling across. He gets out of the car, he's like crawling into his house. You don't remember the scene? The funniest scene in the whole movie. Leo on the Lewds just can't even walk. That's not.
- [53:13]
Matt Norlander
I remember enjoying the movie. I don't remember every scene. I remember that one scene. I don't remember everything, but I remember that.
- [53:21]
Gary Parish
One of the most memorable scenes of the entire movie, but. Sure you do. You all right. Anyway. Okay, well, glad we've got a diagnosis. You've got some physical therapy, a little PT and you're hoping to be good by 4th of July.
- [53:33]
Matt Norlander
Oh, I hope sooner. I had just gotten awesome at golf. I mean, just. It was just now happening. First time in my life I was getting unbelievable at golf. And then this happens.
- [53:43]
Gary Parish
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Define unbelievable.
- [53:48]
Matt Norlander
Beating my friends consistently.
- [53:49]
Gary Parish
Okay.
- [53:51]
Matt Norlander
It's. You know how. You know how Tiger woods body failed him?
- [53:58]
Gary Parish
It's time to wrap this show.
- [53:59]
Matt Norlander
I'm like a modern day Tiger. I'm like the new version of Tiger Woods. My. Just like Tiger woods got awesome at golf in the. Then his body failed him. It's a similar story that I'm living right now. It's a similar story I'm living right now.
- [54:14]
Gary Parish
What about the off the court stuff? Off the course stuff? That too. You good?
- [54:19]
Matt Norlander
I'm pretty good in every other aspect of my life.
- [54:22]
Gary Parish
I just can't walk by any. Yeah, okay, good. Just want to make sure all of.
- [54:27]
Matt Norlander
The other issues that Tiger woods is running into, like, those are not my issues.
- [54:30]
Gary Parish
Okay.
- [54:31]
Matt Norlander
All right.
- [54:33]
Gary Parish
You brought up the analogy.
- [54:34]
Matt Norlander
I don't know that I'll ever win another major.
- [54:38]
Gary Parish
Have you won a major?
- [54:39]
Matt Norlander
I. Man, I was getting close. I was getting to where I felt like maybe it was. It's just frustrating. I finally got awesome, and then this happens. But I'll bounce back. It's a minor setback for the major comeback. Am I supposed to tweet that? Isn't that what you're supposed to tweet? It's a minor setback for the May for a major comeback.
- [55:00]
Gary Parish
Hashtag rise and grind. Send it at 6:14am by the way.
- [55:05]
Matt Norlander
I hate that tweet.
- [55:06]
Gary Parish
Okay?
- [55:06]
Matt Norlander
Lots of times guys don't have major comebacks. Lots of times it's just over.
- [55:10]
Gary Parish
All right, maybe. You know what? Maybe that can be you. Is it just over?
- [55:15]
Matt Norlander
I don't think so. I think I'm gonna learn.
- [55:17]
Gary Parish
This is what I want to hear.
- [55:19]
Matt Norlander
It's a minor setback for a major comeback. I would have a major comeback. Come back. All right, I gotta go. I gotta hold.
- [55:25]
Gary Parish
You Gota. That's a show.
- [55:27]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, I gotta.
- [55:27]
Gary Parish
I gotta do something.
- [55:28]
Matt Norlander
I gotta go do something else. And it takes me, like, 20 minutes to get from my car to my studio, so I gotta get moving. All right, we'll talk to you guys later.
- [55:37]
Gary Parish
Till then, see you later. Bye.
- [55:47]
C
Paramount podcast.
- [55:50]
Matt Norlander
Novocaine is now streaming on Paramount Plus.
- [55:53]
Gary Parish
You don't love this.
- [55:54]
Matt Norlander
I like. It's an adrenaline rush of fun.
- [55:57]
Gary Parish
This is the best. And a bloody good time. Looking forward to it.
- [56:01]
Matt Norlander
Novocain, Rated R. Now streaming on Paramount Plus.