← Eye On College Basketball
Eye On College Basketball
Norlander recruiting recap + Many Coaches OK with NCAA Tournament staying at 68 & NBA/NFL/MLB players associations push back on NCAA's charge on Congress
00:57:48
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- [00:00]
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- [01:43]
Gary Parish
Hey there, it's Gary Parish. Welcome back to CBS Sports. I own College Basketball podcast where we sometimes discuss camel fighting dodo birds in leaky black. Matt Norlander is here with me. If you're watching on YouTube, you know what to do to that. Like button shouts to Brandon Davies. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the CBS Sports college basketball YouTube channel. Please also do that while you're here. Let's get into it. Interesting development. Early in this otherwise slow college basketball week, players associations for the NFL, NBA, Major League Baseball, NHL and MLS issued a joint statement on Monday urging Congress to reject proposed legislation that would grant the NCAA and its members an antitrust exemption to address nil issues. Reading straight from Stuart Mandel's piece over at the Athletic, it continues like this. The statement was in response to the Student Compensation and Opportunity Through Rights and Endorsements act, more commonly referred to as the SCORE act, that was introduced last week by members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. In their letter, the players associations warned that an antitrust exemption would permit the NCAA and its members to, quote, collude to harm athletes. In part the letter also read this way, quote, whatever progress the athletes have made has been a result of their use of antitrust laws. The SCORE act would take that weapon away from them. End quote. Norlander, good to see you on this. I guess it's Tuesday. How big of a deal is that letter from the players associations?
- [03:14]
Matt Norlander
Good to see you too, GP and yeah, we kind of get rolling here on a mid July Tuesday with I think a notable, you know, wrinkle to the ever changing landscape of whatever college athletics is going to eventually become. And we can get into that on this episode here. But you know, when you have five players organizations, just to be clear for folks that, you know, if you're, if you're not really locked in, doing the dishes, riding a bike, going for a run or ever, this isn't the league saying this is. These are the players associations that are connected to the leagues that collectively bargain with these leagues in order to get their players rights. And so in essence, to get a joint statement from five from five different players associations, I actually think it's a fairly, it's a notable update and they are urging members of Congress to not clear this SCORE act, which may or may not pass to beginner. There's actually no shortage of skeptic because there's been plenty of legislation that's been drafted and tried to get pushed through and most of it's come well short of even becoming law, let alone getting the NCAA to the doorstep of true antitrust status. As this statement pointed out on Monday night, only railroad companies and Major League Baseball, those are the only two entities that ever been given and granted antitrust exemption in the 100 plus years of this even being law in the United States of America. So just keep that in mind as well. There's no guarantee the NCAA would get a period, but the SCORE act allegedly is the closest thing conceivably that the NCAA could maybe get to an antitrust exemption. This statement is essentially trying to get ahead of this as much as it possibly can to say, hey, these college athletes, some of them will become our athletes, they will become members in our associations. And we are, we are doing this because we are looking out for the betterment of their earning opportunities while they are in college and not looking to restrict them. We'll Paris this overall, this is, you know, it's, it's, it's one statement on one side of the aisle in, in a long list of arguments for and against. Regardless of where you come down on this, there will be members of Congress that will look to back the SCORE act and try and push it through and help the ncaa. And there'll be others more likely to be on the Democratic side that say we're not good with this because there's too much restriction around it, and that even though we have a Republican dominated set of Congress right now, there's still potentially ways in which this could ultimately get stymied. But it is intriguing and it does tie to things that I talked about with coaches on the road last week about just where we are again. The House case was settled and went into effect two weeks ago today. Earlier on Tuesday, the College Sports Commission actually released its full list of schools. It's well over 300 that have opted into the House case settlement and are part of revenue sharing. But with the revenue sharing, what happens with collectives? We talked about this when I was on the road last week and will collective cease to exist? They cease to exist and something like this winds up going against the wants of all these players associations. There would be restrictions around what could, you know, what payments could come to college athletes. I do find it intriguing. I wasn't necessarily expecting it. It's not the first time we've had players association speak up on behalf of matters like this. So this isn't an unprecedented act, but I do think it is an intriguing one when the collective value of these five players associations and their memberships is it's in the billions and billions and billions of dollars. What did you make of the statement that was put out on Monday?
- [06:41]
Gary Parish
I do think it's important it applies pressure from the other side. We know that where the pressure is coming from, alternatively from the sec, from the Big Ten, from the power conferences, this is what they want. And this is somebody speaking up on behalf of the athletes under the idea of, no, we don't represent these people now, but we will represent some of them soon. And we aren't interested in watching you continue to lobby in favor of legislation that is going to, in our estimation, allow you to, for lack of a better verb, screw people we believe are going to be our future clients. That's more or less what that statement is about. Because, and I know this is complicated for some, like, it's much easier to just come on here and talk about, hey, you know, Duke and North Carolina are playing this weekend. Let's break down hard matchups. I know this gets a little in the weeds a bit, but this is the important stuff. If you want the other stuff, there's plenty of podcasts for that. This is the important stuff. And it is undeniably the most important thing that's happened in college athletics over the past couple of days, despite rumors circulating that Nick Saban could return to coaching. Okay, is that.
- [08:04]
Matt Norlander
Now, did Lane Kiffin start that rumor, by the way?
- [08:07]
Gary Parish
Actually, Greg McElroy, former Alabama quarterback, started it.
- [08:10]
Matt Norlander
Oh, daddy. Okay.
- [08:11]
Gary Parish
By saying, you know, I wouldn't say this unless it came from somebody I trust and believe in, but, you know, they don't think Coach Saban's done with coaching. And boy, off and running. There we go. So we'll get to that later, obviously. But this is the important stuff, because what the players associations are telling you and what others have been trying to explain for months, if not years, is that the very simplified version is college administrators, conferences, the ncaa, whatever umbrella you want to put that under, are quite literally asking Congress to pass legislation that would allow them to enforce rules that might otherwise, and probably otherwise would be deemed illegal or at least be challenged. This is what the NCAA has been doing for decades. They've been. They establishing rules with no input from the other side, no tangible input from the other side, no collective bargaining. They establish rules, then they try to enforce these rules. Then they get taken to court, and then a judge says, you can't enforce this rule. This is illegal. What are you doing now? You owe somebody $785 million. Okay, this has been going on. So now they get the House settlement. And they acted like that was going to be a fix. Go back like four episodes. I told you how that was going to go. It's not even like it's middle of July. This just went into effect July 1. Already got big problems again. Nil deals are being denied. Reportedly, there's at least threats of lawsuit, and at least on some level. What this is designed to do is eliminate all that. Hey, Tennessee, you can make your state law that supersedes our rules, and you can make in Missouri your state laws that supersede our rules. But now we're going to get national legislation and your rules no longer matter. This trumps everything. And, oh, by the way, doesn't even matter if it's technically illegal. We've got an antitrust exemption. We're fine. That's what they're asking for. As you've pointed out, the railroad industry has that and Major League Baseball partially. Nobody else. It's a big ask. It's a wrong ask. So I know that there are even people in our industry who are on both sides of this. Some people are for.
- [10:28]
Matt Norlander
I think it's reasonable, by the way, to be on either side of it. It's a very complex, complicated issue and there are no solutions for everyone that wants players to get paid as much they damn well please. I get that. But there are complications that come with it.
- [10:38]
Gary Parish
GP I agree. I understand there are complications that come with it. I understand there are unintended consequences. I do get why somebody might argue I care deeply about college athletics and bringing more structure to the financial side of college athletics will eliminate some of the chaos that has been disruptive in college athletics lately. And I'm for that period. End of story. I get that. I just, I'm not for that and I've never been for that. I'm on, I'm in favor of what's right. I'm in favor of fair. I'm in favor of what's legal. I'm for the athletes on this. I do not like any legislation or rule that limits them in any way from accepting anything that anybody is willing to give them to do, anything they're willing to do in college. And anything short of that is I will always vote no. And so I am not ignorant to the idea that the way NIL has been being used is off putting for some fans and the year to year roster turnover can be difficult for some to keep up with. I will never try to tell you those things aren't true. I will just always tell you that everything you've been dealing with as a college sports fan is a byproduct of college sports administrators being too greedy for too long. And now it's starting to catch. It's starting to come back around a little bit. Now they're trying to cut it off with this legislation and I love that the players association stood up and said, you've been screwing athletes for decades. You're trying to do it again. And we don't think it's right and we urge Congress not to allow it. I'm on that side of the argument and I, I don't want to say I don't care what happens underneath that. I just say that to me that will always be the most important thing. Whenever you want to make student athletes employees, allow them to unionize, allow them to collectively bargain and then create rules that everybody can agree on, I'm for that. Anything short of that, it's not good enough for me. I appreciate the players associations doing what they did. Those are the real people looking out for the student athletes. Don't let Greg Zanki tell you he's doing it, all right? Don't let those college, the college administrators who are pushing for this legislation. They ain't the ones looking out for student athletes. Don't let them lie to you. You know who's actually trying to look out for student athletes? As of Monday night? Those five players associations. They put out a statement. Those are people trying to protect student athletes. The power conferences. They're just trying to exploit them and, and restrict them and do it without the risk of lawsuits. They don't care the way they say they care. Don't believe them.
- [13:26]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, restrict is probably the right word because I think it's fair to say that most people in college athletics are now at a point where they do word the worst. This was not the case seven, eight years ago, but these people had to be dragged to this reality. They still want to restrict the earning capacity, but most believe that players should have the right to earn money while they're in college. And at least it's a low baseline. But we are at that point. But as this memo also pointed out, this is an all bowl the last bullet point. All bold. The NCAA should not have a blank check to impose their will on the financial future of over 500,000 college athletes. There's another bullet point, a few bumps up from that that says it is not hard to imagine a situation where NCAA and its members collude to restrict revenue sharing and deny student athletes fair compensation with the confidence of immunity against legal action. Indeed, in bold anatolicized. They have been doing exactly that for decades. Exclamation point. That's a, that's an accurate statement there. And this is in part I did want to at least highlight this also as part of the memo. This memo was also sent in part to say what they, what they just laid out there. We've reached a point where there's been a house case settlement and billions of dollars in back pay are going to be paid out in the, in the years to come. And obviously in the years to come, college athletes will. Will be given billions of dollars in aggregate across all across Division 1. But the NCAA and its lobbying efforts is looking for any kind of daylight to give real. Here comes that word again. It's just unavoidable guardrails right to a lot of this stuff. And by giving the, the NCAA real immunity with an antitrust exemption, it could spell, you know, just more restrictions than is. Than is needed for college athletes. I did obviously talk. We. We last spoke GP on Friday morning before I dipped out to. I hadn't gone and seen Nike EYBL stuff yet. GP will be on and be traveling there later this week and he'll take in PGM in person. So I talked to coaches about this. You know, I didn't talk. Athletic directors and conference commissioners are not at these events, but I did talk to coaches and I did ask them and I can't remember if I mentioned on Friday show, but I know I talked a lot more about it on Friday and Saturday on the ground in North Augusta about, you know, this phase that college athletics is shifting into. And I'll probably have something later this week as well on, on some of that. But I, I did ask a number of coaches, you know, what do you prefer? Like, do you prefer what it was the past three years where you were able to, although it might have caused a headache, in many cases you were able to obtain players, albeit for prices that, that might have blown your mind. But it was, it was much more transactional. Sometimes recruiting would last all of five days for a player. Would you rather be what it purports to be moving forward? And that's revenue sharing collectives, largely. Allegedly, we'll see, but dissolve entirely. And GP not one coach told me they would prefer it the way it was. They would like it to be what it is moving forward. And the idea that if a player can get, you know, true nil, quote unquote, whatever that is, that's what they would rather see. But I want to be at least a little more specific in a lot of this stuff and not boil it down to one broad statement. After talking to, I don't know, 25 coaches about all this stuff. The, the opinions vary within the sport on this. Some coaches just don't really have any kind of issue. They're just wired to be like, and I got an awesome job. It beats working for a living. And whatever it is, like, I'm just going to have to adjust.
- [17:03]
Gary Parish
Like, let me, let me stop you right there for a second because I've heard that more times recently than I've heard anything else. It's like almost the men that we're talking to, they go through all these phases of like, confusion and anger and frustration. And now and, and as of July 2020, this is what I've heard more, heard more often. GP I got a contract worth $17 million. Like, my life's pretty good. Like, what am I? I feel a little silly. Like, is it confusing sometimes and frustrating sometimes? But I'm gonna stop. I'm going to try to stop because imagine me telling a normal person I am frustrated with my 17 million dollar contract that requires me to, I Don't know, outbid other people's collect. It's just like my problems aren't that big and I should shut up. I've heard that from multiple coaches recently.
- [17:56]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, that's someone in our comment section accurately pointing out that's the seven stages of grief and we are moving right along on that. So I did want to at least reflect that now there are, there are some coaches who still just, it doesn't sit well with them to know that a player can get a million dollars through a booster when, if you actually remove that element, if they, you know, didn't play at a school that had a booster that was willing to give them a million dollars and said, okay, try and make an endorsement deal, that player might not be able to muster more than $50,000 in that. In endorsements like it there, there are definitely, there's a faction of coaches where it's just like, sorry, I can't get there yet.
- [18:36]
Gary Parish
Like, okay, fine, when the coaches want to get the boosters money out of it, I'm ha, like I bet you.
- [18:41]
Matt Norlander
Want to get the boost.
- [18:42]
Gary Parish
Who do these guys think are paying their salaries? It ain't, it ain't the school. Who do you think pays these guys salaries?
- [18:48]
Matt Norlander
The philosophical thing with some of these people, I'm just saying. But to what you just said a few minutes ago, unprompted from a handful of these guys talking to them in Rock Hill, in North Augusta, it was either when are we going to get to collectively bargaining? Or, or, or, or can we. It was, it was that. Or, or let's just get there. Can we just fast forward to that? Until a couple of mine said, who was I talking? I was talking to a mid major head coach who's over the age of 50 and I was like, we will get there, but you will not be coaching, you will be retired and I might have all gray hair at that point. We will, I do genuinely believe eventually we will get to a situation in which college basketball players and college football players through separate organizations and, and unions and players associations will collectively bargain with the NCAA or if it goes away, another entity. I think we will get there. I'm not optimistic we get there in the next decade. I just think it's going to, it's going to be a long march to that because there's a lot of legalities and what, you know, the Division one player at Duke versus the fourth guy off the bench at Lafayette, like they're not the same player and not going through the same experience in college. So there's a lot of stuff to sort through with that. There's obviously been challenges with unionizations. We've seen that at Ivy League schools recently when it comes to this, that we saw the Northwestern, what, 10 plus years ago. So we can get there. I think we will get there, but we are. I. I'd love to be wrong. I just, I don't. You, you fast forward me to 2035 right now. GP and you asked me, is there a collectively bargained arrangement between college football athletes and the NCAA or their conferences? I just don't think we're gonna get there that soon. And my evidence to that is one, taking a scan of the environment now, talking to commissioners and athletic directors, and also looking at how long it took us to get to this point, period. Like, it took us decades, too long to arrive at this point. So I know we're kind of going big picture overall. But that's what this. That's what the statement from. This joint statement from five players associations kind of prompted. I do find it interesting. And now we wait and see on next steps at the congressional level. God forbid we have another two or three or six hearings on this stuff, some of which have just amounted to absolutely, absolutely nothing. But it is a big swing and a big statement against what the NCAA is hoping to materialize at some point in the next year or two.
- [21:10]
Gary Parish
I just can't help but roll my eyes at, like, a lot of the stuff that we hear. Like, I'm just not comfortable with a player making a million dollars. Well, like you make.
- [21:19]
Matt Norlander
They're not comfortable with the player making a million dollars. Like, they're comfortable with, say, Cameron Boozer making $3 million. They're not comfortable with the fourth best starter on a team making a million dollars. Where if you again, coaches speak on this. Okay, yeah, I know, but, like, the.
- [21:33]
Gary Parish
16Th best coach in the SEC makes four.
- [21:36]
Matt Norlander
There you go.
- [21:36]
Gary Parish
All right. So, like, you stink, whoever you are. All right. I, trust me, I'd rather have the fourth best player on a good team than you, whoever you are. I'm not naming names, but, like, there's a bunch of coaches out there making a lot of money.
- [21:50]
Matt Norlander
Let's name them Bears. Let's go.
- [21:52]
Gary Parish
And I bet you a lot of people are like, I don't know if they're worth it. I don't know if they're worth it. Is he really worth that?
- [21:58]
Matt Norlander
Or second in mid January. And there'll be no, I'd rather have.
- [22:01]
Gary Parish
This player for a million than you coaching my program for three. All right. And Everyone, every argument you hear from that side, it's like, well, I mean, gp. You understand that? Like at the mid major level, what if you get a star? Well, then the high majors are just going to buy them right from you. Yeah, just like they do coaches. They've been doing coaches like that. John Caliperi coached at UMass. All right, that's where he started. Where'd Rick Patino start? Like, where Billy Donovan. Billy Donovan started it.
- [22:29]
Matt Norlander
Marshall.
- [22:29]
Gary Parish
Marshall. All right. The history of college coaching is you get the mid major job with, you know, there's exceptions, but you get the mid major job and if you're bad at it, you get fired and we never hear from you again. You can go coach on somebody's bench, you can be an assistant coach again. And if you're great at it, the big boys will hire you just as soon as they can. And then you'll get raises for going to nits. Like and, and I don't remember, like somebody getting an nit raise and somebody saying, but is he really? It's just like the boosters want to give you the money. You have for decades as a profession been willing to take it. Assistant coaches are now worth $450,000. Isn't that crazy? I didn't hear coaches come out and say, isn't that crazy? I'm not comfortable with my third assistant making a half a million dollars. If the boosters want to give them the money, we have always been thrilled to let the boosters give them the money up until it got to the players. And that's the core of all this too. These universities, you know, you know what they mostly hate about Nil because that is booster money that used to come straight to them. That's now going straight to the players they got cut out or the facilities.
- [23:35]
Matt Norlander
And stuff like that.
- [23:36]
Gary Parish
Yeah, of course, but it's like money that boost. There were boosters out there who used to give, let's just make up numbers, $500,000 a year. And now some of that, if not all of that, was just going straight to collectors. They lost control of the money. The money was going to other places. That's why they're so against it. But it is always wildly hypocritical and it, it's baffles me that that before those words come out of their mouths, they can't understand how they're going to.
- [24:05]
Matt Norlander
Play the way we get to. Because I, I completely sympathize, empathize and even identify to a certain extent with a lot of. Scott Vanpel had A great rant on this right around the time that Kevin Willard left for Villanova where he was just like I, I, you know, it's, it's just too much, you know, complete roster flips. Like you're asking college sports fans at the football level, at the basketball level to keep up with, with their teams in a way that just has them in the case. It's not the way it works in professional sports. If you want this to be professional sports, that's not what this is. Who is happy with this model? There's a lot of good points made in that, the way that you get there because even a couple of coaches, like I was talking to Shire last last week on a couple of things. But this topic did come up, you know, just if you have collect collective bargaining or just a way to enter in a contract for an employer employee relationship where a player can say okay, I'm going to commit to you out of high school. And I think it would be naive to ever think that a player should, and frankly a player should never sign a four year deal, go play to school. But can we, can we turn at least like 2 year deals? Like I think that's entirely reasonable. And if they decide after a year they want to transfer. Well, you signed on the dotted line when you were 17 or 18 years old and now you're going to, you want to be a grown up, like there's going to be consequences to pay if you want to actually break that contract. I think that's the place where so many on both sides of this issue want us to get to in college athletics. I would love to be able, I would. Honestly, the only thing I'd wish for more is to not touch the NCAA tournament. But number two on my list in all of college sports would be to flip a switch, hit a button, whatever, and make that our reality as soon as possible. But again, I just think it's going to take years and years and fighting and stall outs to get there. I do think we'll get there. I just, I don't, I'm not given much reason for optimism that it's coming around the bend. That's all.
- [25:49]
Gary Parish
I do think we'll get there. I don't know when. It'll probably be longer than it should. Everything with the NCAA and any version of the NCAA takes longer than it should. So it'll be longer than it should. But I do think we'll get there. And I like you, that's what I'm for. Like what John Chired laid out to you I'm, I'm, I don't know why anybody would be against that. It, it creates stability, it allows players to earn real money. And more than anything, it is an agreement negotiated between two sides. Honestly, everybody knows what the score is to circle back. What the power conferences are trying to do right now is use Congress to get help so that they can make agreements that aren't two sided. They say, hey, if you want to come here, here's what we can give you. But then you can't do this, this, this, this, this, this, or this, or take that, that, that.
- [26:40]
Matt Norlander
Eliminate and eliminate collectives altogether and have it purely be, all right, it's the revenue sharing cap. And then, and I'll go, what they say is law. And that's what it is. And that's, that's how it's going to be forever. That's what they're fighting for.
- [26:52]
Gary Parish
And that's wrong. That's wrong. It's wrong. And I'm glad that the players associations spoke out and there's. We will get to a place where I think it's not hard to predict. We, we have explained where we're going on this podcast, not just today, but like for years. I just don't know when we'll touch it or if I'll be here to see it. But, but I will say where your number one thing in college athletics would be to not touch the NCAA tournament. Mine would be this. Yeah, mine would be this. Snap my fingers. And we are calling student athletes employees. We are allowing them to unionize. They are collectively bargaining with conferences and universities, and we are reaching a cba. And everything we watch, at least in as it pertains to the biggest college sports that we consume, is all operating under a cba. Just like the NBA operates under the cba, just like Major League Baseball operates under a cba. That would be my number one wish. And I do think we'll get it someday, but my ashes will probably be in a Mississippi river or something.
- [28:05]
Matt Norlander
Okay. Why'd you. I knew you're gonna get dark. You don't have to talk about being cremated.
- [28:13]
Gary Parish
Did you watch them? Did you? I just watched the mortician on hbo. Did you watch the mortician?
- [28:18]
Matt Norlander
No chance.
- [28:19]
Gary Parish
Oh, buddy, it was wild. The mortician is wild.
- [28:24]
Matt Norlander
The mortician, this buddy, this dude, you.
- [28:27]
Gary Parish
Know you're supposed to, you know, like, yeah, your grandma dies. Your grandma dies and they're going to cremate your grandma. Yeah, this dude would take your grandma and like, I'm not exaggerating. 300 other grandmas throw them all in the oven together and just. They figure out how many ashes you needed to make it feel like that was your grandma. But it was really like 300 different people all burned together.
- [28:48]
Matt Norlander
Not gonna lie. It doesn't sound up my alley.
- [28:49]
Gary Parish
Oh, it was something, man. It was crazy. It was wild. It made me. It made me reconsider all the ashes we got everywhere. We've been collecting ashes around here for a few years. We've endured some tragedy in our family. Why am I laughing while saying tragedy in our family? You know, I'm just saying it made me reconsider. Like, are those really. Are those really my wife's? You know, I've just been wondering a little bit. The Mortician is a wild documentary.
- [29:20]
Matt Norlander
Is it time for a break?
- [29:21]
Gary Parish
It feels like it.
- [29:22]
Matt Norlander
I. I think it very much feels like it.
- [29:24]
Gary Parish
Okay, let's take a break, come back and we'll talk peach jam and whatever else Norlander saw on the road. Let's get a word from our partners. Here's.
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- [31:02]
Gary Parish
What he said, though, that really stuck with me. This is the main thing.
- [31:05]
Matt Norlander
And then this is the mortician. We're back on him.
- [31:07]
Gary Parish
Yeah.
- [31:07]
Matt Norlander
Okay.
- [31:08]
Gary Parish
Here's what he said.
- [31:09]
Matt Norlander
Life advice from the mortician.
- [31:10]
Gary Parish
He said, hey, listen, you can think in the world. And that your grandpa's ashes was, you know, they. But there is no crematory in America that is actually cleaning the crematory, if that's what you call it, thoroughly enough to remove the previous ashes. So just trust me. Whoever's ashes you got, they're mixed with other people's ashes. Maybe I'm the worst of the worst, but I'm not unique. And I said, okay, that's interesting.
- [31:37]
Matt Norlander
Okay, let's. We can keep it moving here, but since we're on the topic. You know, I don't like to think about this too much, but I have thought about. Everyone thinks about it.
- [31:44]
Gary Parish
I keep thinking. I can't stop thinking about it.
- [31:46]
Matt Norlander
I know when it's your. When it's your time. Cremation or burial. Because I. Cremation. I see. I can't get myself there. Maybe I will, but I just. I.
- [31:57]
Gary Parish
You want to hear. You want to hear something?
- [31:59]
Matt Norlander
I can't get myself there yet.
- [32:01]
Gary Parish
You want to hear something from the heart? Here's something from the heart. This is what I actually. This is what I actually think about when I'm thinking about stuff like this.
- [32:09]
Matt Norlander
If you get cremated, you can't go to hell.
- [32:12]
Gary Parish
Oh, no, I. No, I'd make no assumptions about that. Here's. Here's my.
- [32:18]
Matt Norlander
I got no idea what's about to come out of Paris's mouth right now.
- [32:21]
Gary Parish
I swear to God, this is a thought I have. I hate the way I look.
- [32:26]
Matt Norlander
Oh, my God.
- [32:27]
Gary Parish
And I cannot imagine I will.
- [32:29]
Matt Norlander
Cosmetic purposes.
- [32:31]
Gary Parish
It's cosmetic closed. I hate the way that I look, and I can't imagine I would. I will like the way I would look in a casket three days after I expired.
- [32:44]
Matt Norlander
Here's the. Here's the great thing about it. You don't have to worry. It's not your problem.
- [32:47]
Gary Parish
I know, but I don't want people standing over me like, I don't know why I never got that neck fixed. You know, I don't want to hear that. You know, or like, you think they.
- [32:57]
Matt Norlander
Can'T say that about you even if you get cremated, you're thinking. Seeing you will prompt the thought.
- [33:02]
Gary Parish
That's right. I don't want people just standing over my casket, being like, I don't know why I never just got a hair transplant. Jesus Christ.
- [33:09]
Matt Norlander
So in your opinion, you pass on to the next realm? Yeah, in this. In this scenario, your. Your body's in the casket, and they've. They've injected you. What they got to inject you with. And your loved ones come to see you, they're standing over. Your assumption is that they're not looking at you to get, you know, to say one more thing to you. And you're unconscious being, but hopefully your soul is in the room and thinking about the memories and all that. You're. You're assuming that everyone's just gonna waltz on up and have the same thought one after another. I've been like, man, what's with this dude's neck?
- [33:44]
Gary Parish
That's exactly right. I'm gonna think this. I don't want people standing over me, commenting on my fat neck and just other aspects of me. So I figured I'd just burn myself up and be done with it. We'll just. We'll just put my little. My little. A little jar of ashes up there, and we'll put the billboard photo from Times Square, and that'll be it. You just get to look at my billboard.
- [34:03]
Matt Norlander
That's Photoshopped?
- [34:04]
Gary Parish
Yes.
- [34:07]
Matt Norlander
Am I there? Am I on this?
- [34:08]
Gary Parish
No, no, no, no, no.
- [34:09]
Robert Half Representative
You have to become.
- [34:10]
Gary Parish
You have to be cut out. I. I apologize. You can't be a part of this.
- [34:14]
Matt Norlander
All right?
- [34:14]
Gary Parish
You have to be cut out.
- [34:14]
Matt Norlander
I don't need to. I'm not asking to.
- [34:16]
Gary Parish
Unless you would like to. Would it mean something to you? Would it mean something to you? If so, I'll do it.
- [34:21]
Matt Norlander
No, I don't. I don't. I don't need a cameo at your funeral.
- [34:24]
Gary Parish
Okay.
- [34:25]
Matt Norlander
I'm good.
- [34:26]
Gary Parish
So that's my plan. This is the actual record. This is the actual record. This is my real plan. These are my wishes. Cremate me upon my expiration because I don't want people looking at my dead body with a fat neck. And then just put my billboard photo right next to my ashes. And then let's, you know, tell stories. I don't really, really care if they're true or not. Just tell some good stories and let's call it a day, right? Shouts to Devin Downey, those are my wishes.
- [34:54]
Matt Norlander
Why did I bring it up? Why? That's why, everyone, you're welcome. I'm still on Put Me in the Ground, but I don't know. We don't even need to think about this anymore. It's the middle of summer. Let's keep it moving. I was in Rock Hill in North Augusta, South Carolina week Paris is heading down to North Augusta for the Peach Jam this week. So last week, last weekend, Adidas's championships culminated in Rock Hill, South Carolina at an absolutely tremendous facility. I have a, I have a in depth notebook that is published here on Tuesday. And that's the last note I just wanted to give Adidas in that area. It's the best facility I've ever been in for, for a recruiting event ever. So they've got a, they've got a great setup there. They culminated last week and then Nike had its, the last stage of its EYBL play happen last weekend of the weekend. And now as we speak, literally those teams got the results. We now have pool play and, and the Peach Jam, which is the championship event has commenced in earnest here on Tuesday. GP will be traveling later this week and then, yeah, the Nikki YBL champion will be crowned this weekend. So I was there. If you want to read up on it, you can. There's going to be a link on YouTube in the, in the podcast description. I've got a variety of stuff, just kind of a hearty notebook, takeaways. So you know, gp, you're going to see some guys, you'll see Stokes. I guess the big picture thing is this 2026 is considered just a vastly down year, very down year and compared, especially compared to 24, 25 and then even 2027, which isn't to say there won't be good players that come from the class. Of course there will be. But when you look at the 5 star depth or lack thereof in 26, and this is based on, you know, the people evaluating, it's not just college coaches in particular. It's, you know, NBA scouts are at these, all these events now that's, that's been cleared for, for a number of years. And, and these are people that are paid to try and project and assess and track all these players from, you know, sometimes as early as 15 years old until the year that they entered into the draft and stay in there. And 26 is just looked as a down year that in mind. Tyron Stokes is the number one player in the class of 2026 and he is far and away the number one player. He would have had a case in, in 25 and 24, 27 if he was in any of those classes there. He's been a known commodity. We've talked about him on the Podcast the past couple of summers. I want to say definitely last summer.
- [37:21]
Gary Parish
He feels like we've seen him for three years at least.
- [37:23]
Matt Norlander
Correct. But he's been that good. Like he's been that good body that developed for that long. So you'll get eyes on him. He plays for the Oak. He played with DeBance the last year. He plays with the Oakland Soldiers this year. He's got a teammate, Jason Crow Jr. Who I believe is going to commit later this week on HQ from Peach Jam. So we may well have that by the time we podcast next. We'll wait and see on that. Stokes is a ton of fun to watch play and we'll, you know, we can get to either with you or you know, next week with, with Fink or something. You know, some of the recruiting angle stuff that's, that's not our bailiwick there. But he's, he's a ton of fun. As for the Adidas guys because there won't be really an opportunity again to talk much on them. Caleb Holt, top 10 player. He was on the Adidas circuit. Extremely impressive. He's got a ton of schools recruiting him and like he's a great example of like when I see him and he's like number six, you know, does it look like the six best player? Maybe not. But I do like a lot of what I saw there. So Holt was, was a standout. Taylor Kenny is another guy. He's a borderline top 10 prospect. Just a tremendous crossover. Really quick first step. A lot going on there. He was actually injured, but he still played relatively well in spite of that. So Taylor Kenny and Darren Rippy Jr. Were two point guards on the Adidas circuit. That just stood out to me. Rippy actually had. I think Rippy might have done as well for himself last week as maybe any player on any circuit. Like he's already highly regarded. Like he's a top 20 level player. But he happened to play really, really well for new heights and I caught him a couple of times and his team actually beat Rippy or his team beat Kenny's in a game and, and Rippy was responsible for the game changing turnover and the, and the game winning basketball. A couple other guys. Arafan Diana is it was plays with a, with an Iowa team on the Adidas side. He's a top 15, top 20 player. He's a big, he's had a quick rise in recent months. He was the first player I watched when I went down there and there are a couple of guys where he's just looking at me like it's an NBA body right now already. Some of his conditioning needs work. He was by far his local player that I saw. Yeah, he is a 7 foot 270 pound guy who some he was hoofing it a little bit but he was encouraging his team like every other play GP encouraging his teammates are smack talking the opponents. It was oddly refreshing to see a player like that demonstrative at that kind of age. A lot of, a lot of teams recruiting him. Intriguing prospect there. And then back to the Nike side of it. A couple other guys I highlighted in my story. Baba a lot of Ton who I mentioned on last week's show, he's the number one player in 27 right now. You will see him. He's playing up. This happens every so often. Like he could grow into like the no brainer, you know, number one pick in the 28 draft. We'll see. He just did not when I happened to see him and granted he's a 16 year old playing up a year he just didn't pop. He plays for team Durant and I think the day before I saw him he had an incredible game but I just happened to see two games in which he didn't, he didn't necessarily stick out. So we'll see on that. One of the more impressive players I saw was Marcus Spears Jr. Who is, yes, the son of Marcus Spears, who is an ESPN commentator former NFL player. Went over and said hello and introduced myself to Marcus who was just taking in a game in which his son wasn't even playing. And I said are you down here the whole time? He said yeah, like because of what Nike's doing, they had EYBL play go right into Peach Jam. So most of these teams are there for like 11 straight days. That means their families are there for 11 straight days. And I don't care who you are living in almost any hotel for 11 straight days, you kind of go out of your mind a little bit.
- [40:54]
Gary Parish
Oh, I do it all the time.
- [40:55]
Matt Norlander
You do it all the time. You're not new to it. But Spears I he's number three according to 2027 or 247 in 2027 right now. If you told me he was eventually the number one player, I'd believe you. There was a surreal moment on Friday, maybe, maybe it was Saturday where I was in the gym watching Spears play and they were playing against John JL3, John Lucas's team and Hakeem Olajuwon has had a son and then a cousin both last Name Elijah on. On the team. And I was like, like, is. Is he here? And Hakeem, of course, is Hakeem, but he's got a hat on, like blue tinted glasses, just a black jacket on, dark navy shirt underneath it. And like, once you see him, you can't miss him. But he was blending right into the bleachers there.
- [41:40]
Gary Parish
I thought, this is incredible. True or false. Not as tall as you think.
- [41:44]
Matt Norlander
Maybe slight especially I'm drawing. I wouldn't stand next to him here, but I stood next to him at the Final Four this year when they did not let him on the court after Houston beat Duke. Maybe by like an inch. Fair, fair. Maybe just a little bit. But it's the dream, man. He was in the building. He's got. He's got, yeah. Two sons and a nephew, all of whom are going to be D1 players. It was cool to, to see. To see. See them. There's some other notes on some other players there. I just wanted to give you a. A general deal on that. And then just a couple other talking points. I did talk with some coaches about where high school recruiting is in 2025. And I think you wrote about this from Peach Jam last year.
- [42:24]
Gary Parish
I was going to ask you about.
- [42:24]
Matt Norlander
This so I didn't go too deep in on the notebook because frankly, you did it last year. But however, like, the COVID year is gone, I did have a couple coaches tell me that just doesn't feel as big as it once did. And I agree with that. Now, part of this is informed by the fact that I wasn't there a Peach Jam. I actually will be intrigued to see when you're on the ground there later this week, like, it's Peach Jam. So, like, I didn't Paris, this was glorious. The crowds were super thin. There were coaches there, but it wasn't swarm. It was just, you know what that building's like. It was great to go there and kind of just. It was chill, man. It was. The games were getting played, coaches were recruiting. But there were those upper tracks. There's almost nobody up there. Just nobody. It was just because it wasn't Peach Jam yet. And that was nice. But on the. To that same extent, you know, when I saw Baba play, that was in the main gym and I want to say head coaches and assistants included, this is the number one player in 20, 27, 25 coaches in the gym for like an 11am tip. It was weird. It was kind of like, what's going on here with this? And a couple coaches were just. They'd picked up on it. In fact, in that one game there was one high major coach who was like, there's just no buzz. And that was the game where he play. So he plays for team Durant. They play team Takeover. Those are two greater DC Area like it was the best players right now in, in D.C. which you know, arguably has the best public high school league in the country. A lot of these guys have played against each other for three, four years. Like there's a lot of pride on the line those kind of games. And it was a, it was a fun game to watch and take over. Destroyed them in many regards, but it just didn't feel as big. I imagine PGM will feel bigger, but overall for what does it mean to recruit a high school player in 2025? Some coaches said, I don't know what to tell these players. Like some of them and they're representative families or whatever. Like they want to know what the money situation is. I have no idea. Are we not going to have our collective. I don't know what our number will be for revenue sharing by the time. Like they want these answers and I can't give them to them. And then some coaches look at it like, I'm here because you still all these players are going to college. Like they might not be impactful in year one. They are going to enroll in college. Like we have to recruit them and let's be real here, like they're cheaper than the other guys, meaning the players in the portal. And I said, yeah, but the other players are more expensive for a reason because you're going to win with them. He's like, yeah, I know what you're saying on that. So it was, it wasn't. It was an interesting set of conversations I had on in that regard there. But it does feel like your average recruit's value in 2025, especially compared, especially compared to the 2010s and even before that it is reduced. But it's come back a little bit here. And it's an unfortunate coincidence in that the year after we lose the COVID bonus year, this is for the high school recruits. The year after the bonus year is gone, you don't have a class that's stacked. Like, make no mistake, some guy ranked in the 50s, some guy great in the 80s, and some guy ranked in the 3002s or unranked right now will go on to become college stars. We'll talk about it on this podcast. And they'll affect final four runs and national championships. That's inevitable to happen but overall, this class doesn't seem to be overly valuable. But nonetheless, I had a. I had a. I had a great time. I enjoyed both of my trips there. Saw some really. Some really fun talents. It's great to catch up with coaches, obviously, on the trail. And the only other thing in my notebook that I. That I included, because I wound up talking about this most on Friday, Saturday after we podcasted was, you know, coaches just talking about the tournament and. And how many were just okay with staying at 68 or. A lot of them were like, explain why we're doing. They were like, explain to me, Norlander, why 76 is on the table. And then I would have to do it. But 72. Some spoke in favor of that, and I understand that, but a lot of them were like, 68 is fine, man. We don't need to do this. And it's not that some coaches don't favor expansion. They do. But as I wrote, I was surprised to learn it almost feels like coaches who are more in touch with the Internet and social media and frankly, probably listen to podcasts or read columns, they have more understanding of the issue now than maybe they did in 2010 when there was a debate to go to 96 parish. So it was just. It was intriguing to see. It was yet another data point. If they go to 72 or 76, you're not going to have coaches in the picket lines protesting. But I spoke to about two dozen guys on this, head coaches and assistants, and most of them were like, yeah, they keep it at 68. That's fine by me. I'm in. I'm in no desire to expand. So I thought that was intriguing.
- [46:39]
Gary Parish
Yeah. So what prompted that column for me last year is I was literally on my way to Augusta and was in Atlanta and had a layover very short, and I bumped into a coach, and we happened to sit together and have a drink, whatever. And he was like, yeah, this is the. The least pressurized Peach jam ever. Something like that.
- [46:57]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, exactly.
- [46:58]
Gary Parish
And I was like, what do you mean, expand on that? And he was like, used to. You come here, you gotta get your. You gotta either get commitments or get in position to get commitments, because this is where you're building your team right here. And right now, it's like, I could come here and miss on everybody, and that transfer portal is still going to fill up, and I'm still going to have an opportunity to build my roster. It's not like, make or break this week or this month or these next few months. And I had another Coach tell me as we were sitting at Peach Jam, he said the weirdest thing for me is we would have the July recruiting period, then we would have the November signing period and then like within the first week or two of the season we're in, we kind of already know who's going to be good next season because the signing period is done and we know where the high school players are mostly going to and transfers are going to have to sit out. And he's like right now, on February 1st, March 1st, you don't really know who's going to be good next year because the, the best teams are going to be built through the transfer largely, not entirely, but largely the best teams are going to be built through the transfer portal starting soon, but not yet. And I just think that's, I don't even know whether that's good or bad. I just know it's very different and it must be weird for certainly grassroots coaches who have been in this for a long time because there was a time where you run team Durant and you got a kid ranked 88th in the country and he's getting all the high major offers and now that same player might not get high major offers because here's what I've had multiple high major coaches tell me. If I take the 88th player in the class, he's not going to be as good as the other two high school players I take and he's not going to be good as the the three transfer portal guys I take. So he's going to be the sixth person in my class and he's going to sit on my bench and I'm going to develop him, we're going to invest some money in him and then he's going to enter the transfer porter after one year. So what is the even point in taking that guy? I'm not even going to take him anymore.
- [49:00]
Matt Norlander
Yeah.
- [49:00]
Gary Parish
And so I'm not talking about the Cooper Flags or the AJ Debances or the Cameron Boozers or the Darren Petersons. The con canipples though, that's a different do whatever you want to do, you and anybody will take you. But I really do think the life of a sub 50 prospect is now wildly different than it was just like five years ago. And if my son were ranked 75th in the class right now, I don't even think we would be looking at high majors. Do you know where we would go? Murray State, East Tennessee State? We would go to the mid major level and I would say, son, you're ranked 75th in your high school class. That's going to make you the highest ranked player in this mid major conference from day one. You're going to start, you're going to get shots, you're going to average 15 points per game. You're going to be the Sunbelt player of the year, the OVC player of the year. And then guess who's calling? John Shire and Rick Barnes and Chris Beard and Bill Self. And that's where we're going to go. Make $2 million, $3 million. That to me, that's the path now to doing this. Why be ranked 75th in the country, go sit on a high major bench and then transfer when you can go be ranked 75th in the country, go star at a mid major and then get you 2 million dollar 3 million, dollar 4 million offers. To me, that's what, to me that's the smart way. Obviously everybody can do it however they want to do it, but that's, I think that's the way I would do it.
- [50:23]
Matt Norlander
Yep, yep. I think there's a lot of credence to that. I think we even talked about it last summer. But that's a, that's a brief update. GP will be on the ground there this week to be determined when in what form our next pod will, how it'll happen. But we'll have, we will have, I guarantee you this, we'll have at least one more episode around recruiting. And I do want to try and get Adam Finkelstein and or Travis Branham involved because these guys have followed these players. I know what they're talking about. We try and get them on at least once a year before we get out of here. One small news note. I actually, I think our buddy John Rothstein tweeted this later today, but I actually got a text at the very start of our show here. Nolan Smith has agreed to become the next coach you mentioned. East Tennessee State. At Tennessee State. Which means that Nolan Smith, former all American, won a championship at Duke, was an assistant at Duke and Louisville and most recently with Memphis. He's going to leave coaching under a penny.
- [51:19]
Gary Parish
Yes.
- [51:20]
Matt Norlander
Go to a school where he's replacing another penny. Penny Collins just left to take an NBA assistant job like two weeks ago.
- [51:28]
Gary Parish
So in Memphis, do you know all this?
- [51:30]
Matt Norlander
I don't, but I take it away. But I don't think as we, I haven't checked. I don't know if the Nolan Smith stuff has been announced since we've been on the air, but I just got a text from a source that this was Happening. So that's. Yeah, that's another former Duke assistant that's going to have a head job. Tennessee State is in the ovc, so we actually have some. This doesn't happen often. We have coaching movement here in the middle of July.
- [51:48]
Gary Parish
Yeah. So the Grizzlies needed an assistant coach. They go add Penny Collins from Tennessee State, and then Tennessee State needs a head coach. So they come to Memphis to grab Nolan Smith from the University of Memph campus. And I believe the connection is Thomas Isolo, who replaced Taylor Jenkins with the Grizzlies, I think was like seven games left in the regular season last season, then was named the permanent head coach, or at least permanent until he's not. But, like, the interim tag was removed. I believe Tomas Isolo and Penny Collins played together. We're like teammates in Europe. So that's the connection. He has a reputation of a player development guy. The Grizzlies are excited about him. And so you get somebody moving from Tennessee State to Memphis and then somebody moving from Memphis to be the head coach at Tennessee State. And congrats to Nolan Smith. Like, that's somebody like, we both covered.
- [52:40]
Matt Norlander
Yes.
- [52:41]
Gary Parish
You know, we. We've both gotten to know first during his playing career and then in his post playing career. He was an assistant at Duke and then he was at. At Louisville for a couple years and then landed with Penny and now a head coaching career like so many other former Duke players and former Duke assistants. So that's awesome stuff for him. He's always been an impressive guy and to see him get this opportunity, like, that's awesome.
- [53:05]
Matt Norlander
So congrats to him and congrats to our producer, Nada. Who? Nada. Go. He's on vacation right now. Shouts to Debo, who's stepping in, who basically is responsible for all of our success as a podcast and our whole operation at CBS Sports. Debo's pod producing today. Not a checks in from the coast of Spain, Buddy, go enjoy vacation. I know right now it's probably like 10.
- [53:27]
Gary Parish
That's the thing that's late.
- [53:28]
Matt Norlander
It's late. So he's like winding down. He wants to see. He wants to. Buddy, we appreciate it. And I actually squeezed in a breakfast with Nada right before he got on his flight to leave because he happens to live not so far away from where the Adidas tournament is. So we got a breakfast in last week. It was great to see him. Go enjoy your vacation, Buddy. You don't have to worry about this podcast for a week plus, and. And you've earned It. Enjoy, Go enjoy all of Europe.
- [53:49]
Gary Parish
I can't question or criticize him like I've been. I've sat on a balcony in Athens and watched and streamed a Mets double header.
- [53:59]
Matt Norlander
You think this equates to a mess? Double header?
- [54:03]
Gary Parish
I don't know.
- [54:04]
Matt Norlander
I've covered some wild ground here, by the way. We're wrapping the show. That's a show. But before we went live, Paris jinxed it. He said, and I mean it. This doesn't have to go long. You don't say that before the show.
- [54:13]
Gary Parish
I know, but I, I, I didn't know I was gonna, for the first time publicly disco. Just, just, I didn't know that I was going to publicly disclose for the first time how I would like my death to be handled. I figured that was a conversation I would have with my family before I had it with the I Own College basketball podcast. Nope.
- [54:33]
Matt Norlander
I'm pretty sure you talk about a lot here on this podcast before you discuss it with your family. That's.
- [54:37]
Gary Parish
I don't think my kids know how I want my death to be handled. But, but, but now Joe Ireland does.
- [54:45]
Matt Norlander
We appreciate you, Joe. We know you're in the show.
- [54:47]
Gary Parish
We appreciate you, Joe, man. And if, just in case my kids are never going to hear this.
- [54:52]
Matt Norlander
All right, don't be so sure. This does live technically forever as far as we're concerned, on the Internet so they could find it one day.
- [54:58]
Gary Parish
Just know that if I, if something were to happen to me, you know, just know. Joe Ireland is in charge of letting my kids know how I would like my death handle. He was in the chat. He heard it all. I'm Lou. I'm leaving Joe Ireland in charge of my dad.
- [55:20]
Matt Norlander
Listen to me. That's a show.
- [55:23]
Gary Parish
Let's go, let's go. Shout out to Devin Downey. Shouts to Chester, S.C. shouts to Terry Teagle. He's alleged check. Shouts to Huck and Larnell and the mortician. Not the actual mortician. That guy is a creep and possibly a three time murderer. Don't even get me started. So not shouts to him, but the documentary is actually good. It's on the HBO Max App three part series Morticians Wild Man. If you're not subscribed, please go subscribe anywhere you subscribe to podcasts including Apple and Spotify. There's more of us than there are of them. That needs to be reflected in the comments, so please do that. We'll talk to you again real soon. Till then, take care.
- [56:04]
Robert Half Representative
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