← Eye On College Basketball
Eye On College Basketball
Top 25 Stories of the Past 25 Years, Ep. 5: Murder, the FBI, NCAA amateurism dies and the Greatest Almost-Buzzer Beater in History
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- [00:00]
Gary Parish
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- [01:02]
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- [01:45]
Gary Parish
Hey there Gary Parish. Welcome back to the CBS Sports Ion College Basketball Podcast where we sometimes discuss Camel fighting Dodo Birds. Leaky Black Matt Norlander is here with me. If you're watching on YouTube, you know what to do to the like button shouts to Brandon Davies. And if you haven't yet subscribed to the CBS Sports college basketball YouTube channel, please also do that while you're here. Let's get into it. Today we are continuing our series on the top 25 college basketball stories of the past 25 years, which is, as you know by now, really just Norlander's top 25 college basketball stories of the past 25 years. With the exception of Bob Knight's termination at Indiana on September 10, 2000. Norlander We've already done numbers 25 through number six, so we've made. That means we made it to the top five. Are you ready to unveil the next five? The final five of the top 25 college basketball stories of the past 25 years, with the exception of Indiana firing Bob Knight back in September of 2000, also included Parrish.
- [02:40]
Matt Norlander
We're good to go there. Let it go. I included on the last show, by the way, are you good with the top five? Did I miss any stories overall? You know what the top five is going to be. You hopped in that Google Doc. You saw what I had there. Broadly speaking, did I miss on any or did I hit it?
- [02:55]
Gary Parish
There is nothing glaring that immediately popped into my head. I could quibble with the order just a little bit, but. But to answer your question, I think all five of these very reasonable and totally memorable massive stories from the past 25 years, were they all crystal clear, bigger than Bob Knight's termination at Indiana? You know, who am I to say? Who am I to say? But they're all. I don't think anything seems out of place.
- [03:25]
Matt Norlander
Okay. As a reminder, if you're listening to this episode but haven't listened to previous ones, this has been a, you know, it's been a summer series. We have four previous ones in the feed. Go find them, watch them on YouTube. There will be a story that publishes accordingly. So. And that you can read on this on CBS sports.com or on your CBS Sports app. That'll be succinct little capsules that touches on all of them. But let's get to it. Let's get to the five biggest stories in men's college basketball since the year 2000. And number five is the greatest shot that never was. Gordon Hayward's half court heave misses at the buzzer for Butler, which makes back to back title games. So it's not just Hayward shot, although that's a big time deal. It is the reason why I put this so high. Two reasons primarily. One, it's the most famous missed shot in basketball history at this point.
- [04:20]
Gary Parish
That is disrespectful to Dozier for the championship.
- [04:23]
Matt Norlander
Sorry, Dozer for the championship doesn't match up. It just doesn't. I don't know what to tell you. Dozer for the championship existed for two years until Hayward came along. Oh, it almost went in and it took it away. So you got that element. And then we have a mid major program from the Horizon League making the title game in back to back years. I don't think we're ever seeing this again. I don't think we're seeing a mid major make that now. I think it's conceivable that, you know, there'll be some charm will happen at some point in the next five, 10, 15, 30 years. Well, I, I could see a mid major win a national championship. We just got San Diego State to the title game. Not that long ago, FAU was in the, Was in the champ. I was in the final four. Maybe you get one that breaks through and wins a title. But the same mid major program winning five games, at least five games in a row in back to back years to make the title game. I don't think we're ever seeing that again. It's a major story. It came against Duke, Obviously, in year one. Butler loses in year two against UConn. It's the fifth biggest story in my estimation of the past 25 years.
- [05:23]
Gary Parish
The only way it could happen in the current climate of college athletics is if it just popped like this. Like you happen to be at a mid major, but somehow, some way, you've ended up with multiple future NBA players. In this case, it's Gordon Hayward and Shelvin Mack. Right. So you would see him and you've got a, like a uniquely gifted coaching prodigy.
- [05:44]
Matt Norlander
Arguable prodigy coaching the team. Yeah.
- [05:46]
Gary Parish
There's a lot of factors you would need to be a mid major that has two future NBA players and a prodigy coach. All right, so good luck. But then you, you there and then for whatever reason, they all come back. They don't want to go to Duke or Tennessee or Kansas. They just are like, hey, we're brothers. We were close. Some boosters, like, we'll get the money and figure it out, how to make everybody comfortable staying. And then you go try to make another. But that's a lot of stuff that's got to line up. I think you're. I think you're more right to, to. As I noted on a previous episode of the I Own College Basketball podcast, I think if that were to ever happen, by then my ashes are already spread in the Mississippi River.
- [06:25]
Matt Norlander
Okay, we don't have to get into that. By the way, if you're watching on YouTube right now, there's a shot here, Getty Images famous shot of Gordon Hayward shot that's blocking out Parish, which I actually, this is production value. I can appreciate. Actually, this is. This is kind of cool. I dig this. Okay, on this note here, I looked at this photo because this is also going to be on the website, this famous shot of Hayward. I don't see you here, Parish. Now, I was also looking for a parish with hair, where I feel like maybe I asked you on this in the pod, but you know what if I did? I don't remember where. Where were you seated at the shot? What do you remember about the 2010 championship game? Duke beats Butler, 6159. Oh, by the way, this was the first title game in more than two decades to be decided by a single basket. What do you remember about that night, that moment?
- [07:07]
Gary Parish
I don't remember where I was sitting. I do remember my main memory from the night is being in the Butler locker room after the game. And it was just so quiet. Just so quiet. People, like, genuinely distraught. Because you can never imagine, like, when you enroll at Duke, you imagine you might be on a stage like that. When you enroll at Kentucky, you imagine you might be on a stage like that. I assume when you enroll at Butler, like, that's not even on your radar. You know, like, Gordon Hayward, like, barely played summer basketball. He was, like, a tennis player in the. Which is why he was not recruited to the extent another player of his caliber might be recruited and ended up at Butler. At least that's part of the story. But to never even imagine this could be your life. And then it happens to be, not only you're in the national championship game, but literally, it's in Indianapolis. School is down the street. I mean, schools down the street. If I remember correctly, the players went to class on Monday and then played the title.
- [08:08]
Matt Norlander
Same wavelength here. GP I want to say that's the case, by the way. Keep going. But as we see this photo here, I love the shot from above. Again, you got to watch on YouTube to see this. So go check through. If you're listening. You've got Kyle Singer Singler splayed on the floor because Matt Howard levels an incredible, incredible screen. I. Were you like. I watched the final three minutes of this game a couple days ago. And even the. The way this even played out, Butler had the game on its racket parish. Continue. Continue.
- [08:34]
Gary Parish
Yes. So I went back and watched it as well. That screen. I don't want to say it was an illegal screen. I want to say it was violent. He. He got him good. How about this? I went back and watched a lot of different versions of the Gordon Hayward shot, and I ended up on one. It was like the Blue Devil Network or something. And they got hung up on the screen that they kind of missed the Hayward shot. It was like. And that's a foul. That's a foul. They were getting off all fired up about that. So the main thing I remember is being in that locker room afterward and just being surrounded by young men who had realized they, they, they, they just had. And maybe it could still be the Disney movie someday. But like they had the movie written, the young head coach, the mid major program, they're doing it X miles away from campus against Coach K and Duke. Like that's a movie. That's a 30 for 30amillion times. And it was right there. And though everybody remembers that Gordon Hayward shot like he had another one a few seconds earlier, that was much closer. Got there a little fade away jumper at the baseline that just missed. But what is interesting about this, this moment in this game is that it is one of, it's one of the few times in history where the miss is more famous than anything else. Yep. Like, like you, when you think of that title game, you don't think of Kyle Singler, you don't think of Nolan Smith, you think of Gordon Hayward, you think of that missed shot. And just like if you go to YouTube right now and all you do is type in Gordon Hayward shot. Gordon Hayward had played the NBA. He's hit a lot of shots, missed a lot of shots. Gordon Hayward shot automatically directs straight to the miss. He is a player who is most famous for almost making a shot as opposed to any shot he's ever made. And the whole thing just. I've enjoyed going back and looking at this stuff again because it's just a trip down memory lane. Let me walk you through. I don't have to walk you through it. You watched it. But for people who haven't seen it lately or didn't see it at all. So we're the final 15 seconds. Duke's up 60, 59, Butler has the ball and that's when Gordon Hayward misses that little baseline. Fade away, Duke rebounds, quick foul. So it's 60, 59, Duke, other end, 3.6 seconds left. Brian Zubeck's at the line, makes the first and then misses the second intentionally.
- [11:03]
Matt Norlander
And yep, Butler has no timeouts.
- [11:07]
Gary Parish
Rebound Hayward, strong rebound, and then he takes four dribbles, launches from half court, off the backboard, off the rim. It falls to the hardwood, game over. But if he makes that shot, is that an all time blunder from K and the Duke staff? Because they would have intentionally missed a free throw that allowed them to lose in regulation. Whereas if you make that free throw, you're not losing in regulation. Now, let me be clear before I turn it over to you. I, I understand there is a statistical, mathematical argument to be made that the likelihood of you losing that game decreases by missing the free throw intentionally. Because a lot of stuff has to happen beyond that. I saw somebody else make this point. Cal Singler and Nolan Smith, I think had already. They played 40 minutes. They played the whole game. Zubeck and Lance Thomas both had four fouls. Momentum is with the other team, the crowds with the other team. There was some thought. We don't want to get to overtime because this will not go well for us. So let's decrease the likelihood that they. That they could get a good shot off, therefore decrease the likelihood that they could make a three. But we are putting ourselves at risk of losing in regulation. It's a calculated decision. I believe the numbers actually favor what they did. If you want to get real nerdy about it. But buddy, I don't care what the number say. You intentionally miss a free throw and then lose at the buzzer and regulation. They gonna talk about you on TV the next morning.
- [12:47]
Matt Norlander
They will, but they will Forget about it two weeks later and 15 years later as we're talking about this because if Gordon Hayward makes that shot, I. Because it's Butler, the mid major playing against Duke, the blue blood of all blue bloods. If he hits a half court shot to win the national championship. I think it's the most famous buzzer beater in the history of basketball. And I don't. It has minimal chance of ever being topped because it would have done something that had never been achieved before with the bin major winning the NCAA title, doing it against a blue blood under those circumstances. So that overwhelmingly becomes the story. What you just laid out there with the four fouls even before the 15 seconds to go. You know, Ronald Norad and Shelvin Mack induced Brian Zubeck into a turnover with 33 seconds to go. And again, go back and watch the final three minutes of this game. The broadcast really picks up on like I was like starting to get. I know the outcome and I'm starting to get invested in it, watching it all over again. It was just, just incredible. And I've said this on the podcast, but I'll say it once more. It's not a proud moment for me, but it's nonetheless true. This was the last Final Four I didn't cover. I applied to get credentialed for College Hoops Journal and it was the last year the NCAA did not approve like independent media and bloggers for. Because at that point I was writing for College Hoops Journal, my own site, stringing for Yahoo and stringing for Fox Sports in addition to being a sports editor here in Connecticut. And so I didn't get approved and I wanted to go Like I'd saved up some money, I was going to just try and make it happen somehow, some way. And so I couldn't go. Here I am at home. I remember I was, my now wife, we were then just dating. Watched it at her parents place because we were in between moving from one place to another. So there was this gap where we weren't living in an apartment on our own. And I did not want the shot to go in because I was never going to be able to live with myself thinking that if I wanted to go cover this event and I got shot down and if this is how this ends and I wasn't there to document it. So there was a part of me that was actually relieved when it didn't go in because it just would have just stuck with me forever. Having said that here and now, like obviously the, the shot going in would have been an all time story and, and whatever. But I do remember it in the moment being like if Butler wins this game and I'm not even there. Like I remember there was an element to that being like, come on man, this is really going to happen. Like I was excited at the same time like, God, I so badly want to be there. And, and I was there the next year. I covered the 2011 Final Four. Butler loses in the. The weird juxtaposition GP is that this is one of the all time title games. You know, Butler had not. It set a record. I had forgotten this but relearned it with research. They, they were the first team in the shot clock era to not allow A team in five consecutive tournament games get to 60 points. Duke only got to 61, but it was an incredibly riveting title game. And then the next year it's, I think objectively it's just, it's. It's the worst title game in the modern era. It was just a 53, 41 Yukon win, whatever. But it's just, yeah, it's, it's an amazing thing to look back on when the piece goes up. I'm not going to dive into it here because we want to keep the show moving, but I go back a little bit along their, their NCAA tournament routes and what they did and then the rosters and all this was also John Shires in 2010. It was his last game as a Duke player. Oh, by the way, just a lot. Yeah, a lot going on there.
- [16:06]
Gary Parish
Those pictures of that Butler locker room, that is exactly what I remember. Just men sitting there, which you can.
- [16:12]
Matt Norlander
See on YouTube if you're listening, it's on the YouTube feed right now.
- [16:14]
Gary Parish
Very distraught and like it was just quiet. It was uncomfortable to even try to talk to them. Like, you know, that's the job, I guess. But it was uncomfortable even try to talk to them because you felt like you were witnessing just a really, you know, low moment in their sports lives. Obviously, big picture, there's more to life than this stuff. But that, that was one of the more disappointing locker rooms I've ever been in. And, or, or maybe I should just say it this way. I don't remember ever being in a locker room that was that quiet. That was that quiet. There was no chit chatting. There was no, you know, no, nobody was loud and mad. Nobody was, it was just quiet. Nobody was saying anything to anybody. And even when you tried to talk to the players, it felt like it was just whispers. Like you were just whispering to each other. It was that, that, that's, that, that's the main thing I remember about the entire Final Four is that locker being in that locker room. I have no idea what else I did that weekend, but I remember being in that locker room and watching those young people like just really hurt. Just really hurt.
- [17:17]
Matt Norlander
Yeah. That was the best Butler team ever, by the way. Was top 10 in per possession defense.
- [17:21]
Gary Parish
We were awesome. The next Butler team was not nearly as good as this one.
- [17:24]
Matt Norlander
That Butler team that made the title game, they'd won 25 in a row up to the Duke game. They were a five seed.
- [17:31]
Gary Parish
I think it probably should have been better than that.
- [17:33]
Matt Norlander
Probably should have been better than that. And then I want to say that Butler team was the only team that season that didn't lose a game against league competition a lot there. And then the next year they were an eight seed and they had games against Old Dominion and PIT as an eight seed where they easily could have lost either of those. The game against Pitt is, was infamous for just what happened at the end there. Go and go and look it up. We won't bog down the show here with it. But they did nevertheless. I mean, Butler made a back to back title games. I just, I don't, I. In my opinion, it's not something that should just be like, oh my God, that happened. No, this is to me is one of the biggest stories that the sport has seen. It speaks to the power and the appeal of the NCAA tournament and what can be possible and, and the greatest shot that that never was. Let's keep it moving.
- [18:16]
Gary Parish
Just one thing if, if people need to like, understand. So, okay, neat story, but like, is it really that big. It is also so big of a story, it quite literally created conference realignment.
- [18:27]
Matt Norlander
Yes, and it certainly helped aid it for sure. No doubt about it.
- [18:30]
Gary Parish
This is how Butler went from the horizon to the A10 and then from the A10 to the big East. Like Butler changed its entire place in the sports world because of these two basketball teams that went back to back. And like, you know, let's be a little more specific with it. Brad Stevens. Brad Stevens did this. Brad Stevens did this.
- [18:49]
Matt Norlander
He did indeed. Let's keep it moving. We'll go to number four. But actually, GP I'll toss us to break your number four. Big story, infamous story, bad story, some of the details, maybe even forgotten so far after the fact. We'll get to that. But first, let's take a quick break out here.
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- [20:39]
Gary Parish
Orlando, we are up to number four top 25 biggest college basketball stories of the past 25 years and I'll let you introduce it.
- [20:48]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, this is the worst story on the list. It's one of the few stories where when it happened, you know, I was still in college at the time, wasn't covering college basketball. This wasn't in the middle of the season. So there are parts of this that I just don't have memory of. I remember the story, I remember seeing it being a story, but it was not something that I was actively going to try and read about every single day on websites, espn.com et cetera, et cetera. But it is a big one and that is the, the murder of, of a player at Baylor, the COVID up that ensued and the near death of a program. It's the Baylor basketball scandal from, from 2003 most notably. And yeah, it's, it's a, it's. I don't say it's. It's just an awful, awful, awful story. Involves one Baylor player, Carlton Dotson killing another Patrick Dennehy. In mid June of 2003, Dennehy was killed with two shots to the head. It would be weeks before his body was uncovered. Dave Bliss was the coach at Baylor at the time. This is the one story on the list where there's just, you know, a lot of the stuff is we go back, we reflect on it and we find this is just, just as bad as it gets. Bliss tried to, tried to cover it up, tried to paint Dennehy as a drug dealer. This was discovered in the summer of 2003 because bliss had just hired an assistant on his staff. And I think the way the story goes is there was kind of one conversation about this stuff that kind of rattled this young assistant. And then there were subsequent conversations in the next two, three days with players and the staff and Bliss got taped basically saying, you know, we need to. The direct quote from, from the tapes I pulled from the AP reporting back then is quote we've got, what we've got to do here is create drugs. Bliss said, quote it's not like we created his situation. We're the victims, end quote. Which is just awful, awful, awful stuff. Bliss had paid for. Dennehy was not a scholarship player, was a good player, but he had transferred there, he had paid for his tuition. Bliss was trying to cover this up, trying to say that Dennehy was going to pay for his way through with, with drug dealing. He received a 10 year show cause Baylor's program almost and really justifiably could have been given the death penalty. It really could have. The NCAA spared it from that. It had to not play non conference games for a year as Scott Drew was hired. And we know that the back end of this, but those are the broad parameters of this. There's a couple more things I can add before we keep going but yeah, you were working at the Commercial Appeal at the time. Parrish can you remember what it was like to be on the outskirts of college basketball media when this story started to develop and how it really. It grew into something really, really ugly really quickly in the summer of 2003?
- [23:36]
Gary Parish
Yes. And oddly, I had, like, a role in reporting on this. Not anything significant. I' trying to overstate it, but, like, I just had my own. Even as a beat writer in Memphis, I had my own little local connection to it because there was a young man named Harvey Thomas who had went to high school. He wasn't from Memphis, but he had transferred to Hamilton High in Memphis, which was at the time, a prominent basketball school. It's where Todd Day went to school. It's where Sean Williams went to school. Diedrich, Lawson, Young Dolph. Rest in peace, Flippa. Harvey Thomas went to school at Hamilton, and he was roommates with Patrick Dennehy and Carlton Dodson. So when this goes down, one of the first things that you hear is, and the roommate, Harvey Thomas, and I'm like, oh, wow, the dude from Hamilton High is roommates with these two players. And I just remember having to try to connect with him, people around him, and do whatever reporting I could do from that angle of the story. And I went last night and to Google it and tried to. I couldn't find any of it. But, like, I just. I remembered there was a Memphis connection to it, and it just took a few Google searches, and I figured out it was. It was Harvey Thomas. So I was actually following the story pretty closely because I was. I was reporting on it in my own little way. It was just bananas. You've run through most of it. Let me try to connect some dots here. So Dennehy and Dotson, they're both at Baylor. They're roommates, they're friends. And at some point, Patrick Dennehy is missing. That's the way it's initially reported. He's just missing. It's not like he was shot at a club or, you know, at a house party or something like that. So it wasn't like, yes. And there were witnesses, and the cops showed up and somebody was arrested and he was rushed to the hospital. It's just like, nobody can get in touch with Patrick. Didn't he. He's just missing. On June 25th of 2003, his car is found in Virginia. The tags are removed. Meantime, Carlton Dotson has allegedly already told one of his cousins that he and Dennehy were shooting guns, had an argument, and that he shot him. He had admitted to it to somebody, and he was charged subsequently. Charged with murder. On July 21, five days after that, Dennehy's decomposed body was found in a gravel pit near Waco. And Carlton Dotson had apparently told authorities that he believed demons were after him because he was, quote, Jesus, the son of God. So cuckoo for Coco Puffs. Meantime, Baylor doesn't know what to do because this is very much a situation where I heard many coaches say this subsequent to the Baylor investigation. And they were never saying it strictly because of the Baylor investigation, but you just sort of. You'll get the point. It's like you don't want the NCAA on your campus for anything because they'll be looking for something and they'll find 10 over things. Over 10 other things over here that they weren't even looking for. And this is very much that kind of thing. This draws attention to campus. And then they find out, oh, wow, they're breaking every rule available. All right, so Dave Bliss, in a, I guess, attempt at self preservation, they quite literally try to frame Patrick Dennehy as a drug dealer. To ex. To. To be able to explain how he has all this money that is now known that he was running around with because his girlfriend was talking to the media and anybody else as well, talking about the players were using drugs and drinking a lot extra benefits. And so Dave Bliss is like, hey, listen, if we can make people unders. Believe. Make people believe that he was a drug dealer, that can explain all the money. And then we can just say, hey, the money didn't come from us. Right. These really uncomfortable. Like, you ever been in a conversation with like three of your friends and then one of them says something, you're like, yo, I can't believe you just said that out loud like that. Do not ever say that again. Anybody else. No confidence, I imagine. And. And so this young assistant at some point named Abar Rouse.
- [27:58]
Matt Norlander
Yes.
- [27:59]
Gary Parish
Who was. I didn't even realize this until I went back and started. He was hired on June 1st.
- [28:03]
Matt Norlander
Yeah. Which is why the story breaks wide open, because he just got to this to the staff. He's not embedded in the culture there. Like, he's right. This is all happening. And he's like, wait, what?
- [28:14]
Gary Parish
What?
- [28:14]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, he's like so uncomfortable that he goes and buys a tape recorder. It's like, no, no, he's gonna talk about this again. Like, I'm recording this. Like, there's no way that I'm getting wrapped up and going down for this kind of stuff.
- [28:23]
Gary Parish
That's exactly right. Like, he did the honorable thing. He's hired on June 1, 11 days later is when Dennehy goes missing. A month later, less than a month later is when he's secretly recording his boss. And he turned in Day Bliss, the Baylor athletic director resigned. Dave Bliss resigned, got a 10 year show cause. And then Rouse's career essentially done.
- [28:48]
Matt Norlander
Yeah. How terrible is that, by the way? Well, who does the right thing? And he's essentially excommunicated because you know what coaches saw.
- [28:57]
Gary Parish
Here's what head coaches who were in a position to hire him saw. Okay, honorable that you would try to protect a young dead man's reputation, I guess. But I don't like you secretly recording your boss. And I wouldn't want somebody secretly recording me, so you can't work for me. And he got like one nothing job after Baylor and then got out of coaching. And I read Dan Wetzel, our friend at espn had it, read it too.
- [29:25]
Matt Norlander
He did a great job about it. Dan, on this one because Dotson is out. Continue. You're gonna say Dotson got out. Dotson got out earlier this year on parole for presumably good behavior after spending more than half the sentence in prison. But he caught up with, with the assistant in addition to.
- [29:40]
Gary Parish
And Ralph Rouse is now a warden at a prison in California. Like an assistant warden at a prison in California. But one of the things he said he is he had either told coaches in the past or had wanted to tell coaches in the past. Like, like what if it was your son and your son's college coach was trying to frame him as a drug dealer and you knew he wasn't. It was all a lie to protect this coach's NCAA reputation. What if that was your son? Your son got shot by one of his teammates, murdered by one of his teammates. Was by and large a good young man. And his college coach tried to frame him as a drug dealer publicly to protect himself. How would you feel about that? Because that's all I, that's the only way I thought about it. Like I. When I rec, there's some quote he gave wet. So along the lines of when I recruit somebody, I sit down with their parents and I tell them, if you send your young man with me, your son with me, I'm gonna do my best to protect him. He said, you know what all coaches say that some of us mean it, some of us don't. And I thought that was a really strong, strong quote. And yes, until I read Wetzel's column, no idea. Carlton Datsun was out of prison and was like living in Waco. He was back in Waco.
- [30:50]
Matt Norlander
Yeah.
- [30:50]
Gary Parish
And I don't even know that I have a strong opinion on that. Although I think, broadly speaking, I don't mind murderers just staying in prison forever. You know, like, I keep the violent people away from me. But I understand there's counter arguments to all of that either way. Yes, in 2024, he was approved for release, and I, I think released it certainly within the past year, and has been living what I guess is a fairly quiet life throughout random cities, some of them in Texas.
- [31:21]
Matt Norlander
When we discussed in, you know, longer listeners to our podcast that followed, you know, the Baylor 21 national championship, and we talked about what Scott Drew had done. This is the origin to that. Scott Drew obviously gets the job after this, a job that few people would have taken. He did take it. They got the lack of institutional control. He just, he took the job under the most difficult circumstances imaginable for a college basketball program and a power conference at that point, and is why to see what he did with Baylor, and of course it took time is truly nothing short of miraculous. Like, you know, think about every. We've only in some ways just done a surface level recollection of what happened there in 2003. But this is as ugly of a scandal, and that is saying something. But this is about as ugly of a scandal as we've ever seen in college basketball. There's obviously been a few other pretty horrendous ones that have. That have affected places like Michigan State and Penn State. But on the specifically on the men's basketball side, this is as bad as it's ever gotten. And it speaks to really Drew's. I say this, you know, word intended, like his faith to be able to do it and the fact that he got Baylor to a national championship is just wild to me. And Baylor being, you know, objectively one of the 10 to 12 best programs over the past decade, when you see how close it came to being disbanded altogether. Yeah, this story broke at a time when we didn't have social media, when there wasn't constant updates on television about stuff from a sports perspective, particularly in the off season. But make no mistake about it, this is a horrible story, a huge story, and for all of the horrific nature of it, it nonetheless deserves a place in the top five.
- [33:06]
Gary Parish
Yeah, and I do think everything that happens after this story is. Makes the story even bigger. Like, I think I've said this earlier when we're talking about Butler and I mentioned, like, that's the movie, but I do sometimes think of these things as, like, movies. And you could start a movie with opening scenes are the scandal at Baylor and boom and boom and boom. And then here comes this 32 year old, fresh faced, very inexperienced college basketball coach moving out of his comfort zone and home state to try to take over this like and then build it to what it became. That's a movie, that's a documentary. It's why Scott will be in the Naismith Memorial hall of Fame someday. It's why if anybody ever deserves a statue at a place and I, I could argue coaches don't deserve statues. I could argue that if you wanted me to. But as long as we're putting them up, this is among the most obvious people working in college basketball right now. Who would be a candidate to get one at a particular school someday. He takes over in August 2003. There are plenty of people who told him he was crazy for doing it. He was 32 years old. Year 1 he went 8 and 21. Year 2, 9 and 19. Year 3, 4 and 13 with zero non league games. Because of part of the NCAA punishment that season, Baylor didn't play its first game. I don't think this was ever. Is this ever happened before? Will it ever happen again? Baylor didn't play its first game of the season till January 11th.
- [34:40]
Matt Norlander
Crazy.
- [34:41]
Gary Parish
And that was at Texas Tech. They didn't have their first winning season under Scott until year five. That was the 2002 7, 2008 season. Made the round of 64, the tournament starting in 2008. So with that season there have been 17 NCAA tournaments and Baylor has been in 13 of those 17. And if we'd have had the one in the other year, it would be 18. It would be 14 of 18 instead of 13 to 17. Won the NIT title in 2013. Won the NCAA tournament in 2021. Before Scott took over that job, that program had made four NCAA tournaments total history. Four shouts to Bill Henderson, obvious legend. Made two final fours, but he was never as consistent as Scott. Bill Henderson. Three NCAA tournaments in 18 seasons. Scott Drew has taken Baylor to 13 of the past 17.
- [35:44]
Matt Norlander
I think it was fair at the time when Scott Drew took the job. Even if you wanted to say okay or you know, the year before the, the Bliss scandal happens. I think Baylor was at the power conference level. And keep in mind the topography of College Athletics in 2002, 2003 different than what is today. I think Baylor was probably regarded as one of the five worst jobs in power conference basketball. You see what Drew has done and turned it around into. It's. It's remarkable and worthy of hall of Fame inclusion.
- [36:13]
Gary Parish
So. And then, of course, he turns down Kentucky and Louisville. And I'd never. I'll let Scott make his own career choices, but it seems more likely now than it did, say, five years ago that he really will probably just retire there. There. You think Scott Drew retires at Baylor?
- [36:29]
Matt Norlander
I do now. I do now. I thought this past off season, the one before, if he didn't move, then I think this, I think he's, he's retiring there.
- [36:35]
Gary Parish
I mean, in the past three years, Kentucky, Louisville and Indiana have all opened. Do we believe he could have had any of those jobs? Yeah. Yeah.
- [36:46]
Matt Norlander
I think Indiana didn't pursue the way some might have thought. But, yeah, certainly Kentucky or Louisville.
- [36:50]
Gary Parish
Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, he, like, it's, it's amazing. It's one of the great, it was one of the great college athletic stories. I mean, obviously the start of it is tragedy, but where Scott took it from there, it's, it's turned into one of the best basketball programs in America and led by one of my favorite people in the sport.
- [37:10]
Matt Norlander
From one scandal to the next. Let's go to number three on the list here.
- [37:15]
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The allegations in a criminal investigation being conducted by the United States Attorney's Office, Southern District of New York and the Federal Bureau of Investigations are troubling to all of us. While the investigation is continuing and no charges have been filed against the University of Louisville or any of its employees, the allegations are serious. Board Chairman Grissom and I spoke to both athletic director Tom Jurich and head men's basketball coach Rick Pitino this morning and informed them of the following decisions. Effective immediately, Coach Pitino has been placed on an unpaid administrative leave. Coach Pitino's employment will be reviewed at a later date. We will continue throughout this process to follow university personnel policies. Effective immediately, Vice President for Intercollegiate Athletics Tom Jurich has been placed on a paid administrative leave. The leave will continue until the Board of Trustees has an opportunity to evaluate his continued employment at or before its regularly scheduled meeting on October 18th.
- [38:28]
Matt Norlander
And it, it's from within the past decade. I know people listening have probably been waiting for this one. Inevitable. The FBI's investigation into fraud and bribery in college basketball makes national headlines and puts the sport on edge for nearly two years. The date the story broke open was September 27, 2017. I do remember it quite well from a work perspective. It was quite the hell of a day. Ten people were arrested connected to college basketball that day, including assistants Tony Bland at usc, Chuck Person at Auburn, Book Richardson at Arizona and Lamont Evans at Oklahoma State. Also arrested included Adidas executive James Gatto and up and comer in the recruiting and agent space, Christian Dawkins. It's been almost eight, eight months or eight months, eight years, feels like twice as long since this story broke. But it is worth reminding people that when this story broke, and obviously by design, the FBI, hello, works covertly. There was nothing out there about this, and it broke and it rocked college basketball. Now, whether when the charges were, you know, bribery, money laundering, wire fraud, you can make the case that it was all just a huge waste of time. And I hear that for sure. But what's undeniable is how big the story was and everything that was fallout from it. I mean, this is the DeAndre 8 and $100,000 alleged payment and, you know, people calling for Sean Miller's job on television like that week, and then Sean Miller holding on to that job and eventually getting fired in 2021 from, from Arizona, frankly, from complications from this. Rick Patino loses his job at Louisville. The NCAA eventually, what, four months after, makes the unprecedented decision to strip a basketball team of its national championship. Louisville's 2013 title is off the books. This had never been done before. This is all fallout. The Rice Commission is formed, which was a huge waste of time, but nonetheless is formed and in some ways does continue to push along the story of, okay, what are we doing here with college athletes? And they're, they're, they're looking to get paid and it's under the table and it shouldn't be allowed. A lot of this stuff moved us to where we are today. Stick around. We got more on that coming shortly. But yeah, just a, an incredibly weird, sprawling story. I mean, I went down to the Southern district of New York, New York's courthouse, and reported and sat there in the church like pews and listened to testimony after testimony, witness after witness. All of these different people, players, coaches, teams, programs, all interlaced together. Parrish. There were belief from some of the media at some point that this would lead to dozens and dozens of head coaches losing their jobs. That didn't happen. Just a big, big, wild, crazy story. Your thoughts?
- [41:13]
Gary Parish
My main thought, looking back on it, is that on the day it broke, it felt like it was going to be the biggest thing ever. And by the time we got to the end, we was kind of laughable. Like there's, there's, there's a pretty dramatic difference between where the story started and where it ended. Because it starts with like, I think first we Learn about it in like a non traditional way. This wasn't a WOJ bomb or anything like that. It was like coming from government officials, you know, people have been arrested. Press conference at this time and then it's like a big show and it's like we got your playbook. You know, there's all those little quotes and.
- [41:48]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, good call, good call.
- [41:50]
Gary Parish
It was like, it was like, if you've ever broken a rule, you should come turn yourself in right now. That's what it felt like. Yes, we know what you're all doing and if you've done it, you better come turn your. Don't make us come get you. You better just call us and admit to everything. And it was like, oh my God, they what's about to happen. And you know what actually happened? A bunch of people most people didn't care about had their lives turned upside down. And the people who were largely the big names connected to it, yeah, some of them had some temporary turmoil. But largely speaking, the head coaches whose programs were mixed up in this, they're mostly white guys and they either kept their jobs or eventually lost them, but then got awesome jobs again. I'll just run you through some of them. Rick Patino is now the head coach at St. John's the team I have ranked number one in the top 25 and one. Yes, this, things connected to this cost him his job at Louisville, but he's doing okay now. Stuff connected to this eventually got Sean Miller at Arizona, but like he's now the head coach at Texas. Yeah, it created problems for Will Wade at lsu, but he's now the head coach at NC State. Bruce Pearl survived the whole thing at Auburn even when there was a time where it looked like he wouldn't. Do you remember that? It was like reports like BP won't cooperate with his own school. And I remember talking to people and they were like, well, they're eventually going to get him. So the, the move here is you just delay, delay, delay. Keep getting your direct deposits every two weeks for as long as you can. But eventually they'll get him. I don't. Bruce Pro is steel. They never got him. They, they got him contract extensions but never got him in the way people suggested. And Andy Enfield is, you know, he's at smu. Am I missing people? Like, is there a single head coach who was running a program that got tied into this where it actually never recovered again?
- [43:50]
Matt Norlander
No, no, because like Underwood had left Oklahoma State at that point was at Illinois. You had the Lamont Evans connection because he was at South Carolina with Frank Martin. Previously there was also. Well, somebody forget. Like even Creighton got caught up in it with. With one of its assistants, Preston Murphy, who's now on staff at Alabama. But they, you know.
- [44:09]
Gary Parish
But the people who got popped good that. That's Chuck Person. That's book rich.
- [44:12]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, the ones that were. I'm in terms of strictly arrest, but they're even more. I'm just drawing on my time in the courtroom like were other assistants. Tony Bland, by the way, is back in college basketball. He's an assistant at Washington.
- [44:22]
Gary Parish
Right.
- [44:22]
Matt Norlander
I saw him on the road earlier this month there. But yeah, I agree with you that when there was a. There's a vast difference from when the story landed to what actually came of it. But undeniably there was, you know, there was tons and tons of fallout from it also. As if in. I understand a lot of these details have been kind of lost to time. But in fall and reporting on this at the court, in the courtroom and seeing what this. A lot of this was like it was instigated by the FBI to try and induce these. It's not like they found something where you had a ton of college basketball coaches that were truly conspiring to make sure that they were paying players hundreds of thousands of dollars and there was this huge illegal ring of. Of activity happening. That's not the case whatsoever. In fact, it was this former guy who was affiliated, who was looking to get busted on something else that was trying to make films that said, hey, I might have a tip for you. I might know of some college basketball coaches that are cheating. The FBI who took that, tried to run with it. They got a little nibble on something and they built this huge case into it. It was never what it was build to be. But that didn't stop it from lasting two years. Overall, it was. You can argue, I guess, about the placement of this, but I just. When it landed, this was the one story that had a lot of people being like, whoa, yeah, the story we've been waiting decades for. And this is going to be the thing that blows apart college sports didn't exactly happen like.
- [45:44]
Gary Parish
And throughout those years. It's not like this all came out on day one. It would just be like a random day seven months later. And it's like. And here's deandre Ayton, the asp. The deandre Ayton aspect of it. And then it'd be six months later and there's like reports about the Kansas staff being on a wiretap.
- [46:06]
Matt Norlander
Yeah.
- [46:06]
Gary Parish
And, well, we have to do this this way because that's the way, you know, Kentucky does it or Duke does it, or. You know what? There was that little thing that was like, ooh. So you had some of that stuff, you know, sort of just randomly coming out through all the. Throughout the process.
- [46:21]
Matt Norlander
But by the way, I totally forgot Will Wade eventually got pinched as a result of this.
- [46:25]
Gary Parish
Yeah.
- [46:25]
Matt Norlander
And we see where he is now. There's more.
- [46:27]
Gary Parish
There's just so much attachments. Yeah. There was always these little things, but brought like, if. Here's the thing. If you try to tell somebody this story and you say, okay, let's start on September 27, 2017. Ten people are arrested. Here are the programs that seem caught up in it. Louisville, Arizona, Auburn, whoever. All right. And then they go, okay, I ain't got much time. Gp, skip to the end. Where's everybody at now? It's like, well, the assistants are, you know, there's. Some of them are back in. Some of them are still struggling. Their lives got real difficult. Okay, but. Yeah, what about Patino? Oh, he's coaching the number one team in the country, making millions. Okay, but what about the guy at Arizona? Oh, he's now at Texas. What about the guy who was like, strong ass offer guy at lsu? Oh, he's the head coach at NC State. What about the one in the sec? I guess it was at Auburn, where he wouldn't even cooperate with his school. Oh, they gave him a contract extension. In a race, he took him to a Final Four. It's just like not to get, like, everybody's fine.
- [47:26]
Matt Norlander
Yeah. Yeah. And to think it all started that guy I mentioned before, Marty Blazer. He was. He had had some, like, loose affiliations with, I want to say, like, boosters tied to Pittsburgh and North Carolina. And he was under. He was under investigation from the sec. Not that sec. The United States Security and Exchange Commission sec. And he took a plea deal that basically said, I'll cop to this. And then I got something even juicier for you. And then it roped in all these people. You know, Brian Bowen was the recruit at Louisville that brought them all in. Just. Man, oh, man, just. Yeah.
- [48:04]
Gary Parish
And what is wild is that just a few years later, we were throwing millions of dollars around everywhere.
- [48:11]
Matt Norlander
Correct. I just saw Christian Dawkins. I've seen Christian Dawkins on the recruiting trail like the past three years.
- [48:16]
Gary Parish
TJ Gasola, like, you know, there's another one.
- [48:19]
Matt Norlander
There's one after the other. One after the other. Yes. Who now works for caa.
- [48:24]
Gary Parish
Yes.
- [48:25]
Matt Norlander
Who was one of the key witnesses in the entire thing as it pertained to connected to Louisville and Kansas and all the. A lot of this was Adidas schools one after the other. Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [48:35]
Gary Parish
In less than a decade, we have gone from, you've got to get TJ Gas, Nolan, people like him out of the game to like, get him back into here to Peach Jam. That's, that's how much everything is. Has changed. Like, we went from a world where Bill Self got called a quote cheater because he was talking to Jim Gatto every day. And do you realize, like, that's part of the job now? Like, you re. You have to talk to those people every day. It's like, it's an encouraged part of the job now. If you don't have those relationships now, you don't have a basketball program now. Correct. So just every. What used to be frowned upon is now okay. And that's how all these schools can be comfortable rehiring all these people. There is a time where you would have swore, even in real time, even with your understanding of basketball, you'd have been like, I don't know if Rick Patino ever gets a good job again. I don't know if Sean Miller ever coach at the high major job level again, will Wade, he'll might never make it back. And it's like, oh, no, we're just going to change all the rules and rehire all those guys for more money than they've ever made. That's where we're at.
- [49:43]
Matt Norlander
What a stride we've made from eight years ago. We've got two more stories to go. And before that, I guess let's. Let's take a quick break. And then we got the top two biggest stories past 25 years of men's college basketball. First award from our partners, foreign.
- [50:01]
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Matt Norlander
We're really doing this, huh?
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Gary Parish
Bye bye, Truckee.
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Of course, we kept the favorite.
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Matt Norlander
Hello, other Truckee.
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- [51:44]
Gary Parish
All right, we're back. Top two stories past 25 years in college basketball. We're at number two. Norlander, introduce it.
- [51:52]
Matt Norlander
Well, the number two story is maybe the biggest story to hit our world this century so far and how it affected college basketball.
- [52:03]
Gary Parish
We got, we got more coming.
- [52:04]
Matt Norlander
I know, but so far, so far.
- [52:06]
Gary Parish
We got more coming.
- [52:07]
Matt Norlander
It's Covid canceling the 2020 NCAA tournament. You know, men's and women's college basketball did not hold a championship event in the year 2020. The NFL did. Major League Baseball found a way. They put the Masters in in November. They put the NBA in a bubble. All major American sports found a way to continue somehow, some way, even if on a delay, to play their championships. That did not happen in college basketball. It's obviously the only time this has ever happened. And it just forever will be a huge what if it has also put this weird hiccup into the way we see streaks and records? Because there was no there was a 2020 season. 2019-20 season. There was no 2020 NCAA tournament. The word surreal gets overused in our society, but this definitely, definitely applies because we went from a situation where, okay, you know, mid February, this was on no one's radar. And then we curl into March. It's like people are really getting, like, people are dying across Europe from, like, what is happening? What is this? And is it, is it just. Is it coming our way? Well, sure as hell it is. And then Rudy Gobert kind of kicks it off. You know, we Remember that situation. But then in a matter of hours, you know, two days, essentially, we go from what is this going to be? To. Yeah. To cancel the tournament just days before Selection Sunday. I, I'm not kidding. Paris. In some ways, this feels like it's been a decade since this happened. And in other ways, it feels like this was two years ago.
- [53:34]
Gary Parish
It feels like yesterday to me. I remember it.
- [53:36]
Matt Norlander
Yeah. Some have said it's the worst pandemic of our lifetime. What do you say?
- [53:41]
Gary Parish
It's certainly the dumbest. It was the dumbest one of our life.
- [53:44]
Matt Norlander
It's also the dumbest. That's right. I was trying to take your saying I couldn't remember the exact.
- [53:50]
Gary Parish
People used to get mad, and I, and they'd be like. So they would either think I'm downplaying the pandemic or, or being hyperbolic about the pandemic. Like, everybody really was the dumbest. And I just meant, I just meant, like, quite literally what I'm saying. This is dumb. The way people are acting, the things we're fighting about. Like, this is. We've had other pandemics. Some of them, I imagine, worse. This is dumb, though. We never had one that's dumb. And so what I remember most about that time is how ignorant I felt with the benefit of hindsight. It is true when people say about us in America, we do kind of live in our own little bubble, and we, we just are ignorant to. Not all of us, but a lot of us are just sort of ignorant to the rest of the world. I, I don't like to think of myself that way, but in this specific instance, I just remember feeling stupid. I was in New York the entire winter, every week. And I did start noticing other people acting differently. And I just never really clicked with me. But I would go to lunch. I'm sort of like a, I get into habits. Like, I do the same things every day, you know, for six months at a time. Then I'll find something new today for six months at a time. But I have a, I'm pretty routine oriented. And I would go to the same restaurant every day for lunch. And I just noticed after a while, as March was approaching, it was just like everybody in there was in mask. And I just, I, I, I'm from Mississippi. It, you know, I'd be in. Nobody had even thought about a mask down here. But I just sort of start, saw it starting to change a little bit. But I bet it was a week before the whole world shut down. And like, we were on radio and somebody Asked me, so do you think your kids are gonna get their school shut down? And I was like, I mean, I don't think so. I mean, maybe for a day or so. I don't. I mean, I don't think so. I was like, I don't know. But, like, I seems crazy. Had no context for what was about to happen. So here's my story. You probably heard it 50 times. I'm at the CAA tournament doing sideline. CBS Sports Network. It's a Monday night semifinal Tuesday championship game. It's Tuesday night, March 10th. I'm in Washington, D.C. hofstra beats Northeastern to punch a ticket to the NCAA tournament. Yeah, like, I loved being there. I loved everything about that night. If you could find video, if you could find the game footage of that night on CBS Sports Network, I bet if you zoomed in, you would be able to see me sitting courtside. And this is hand to heart true. I had a bottle of Dayquil sitting on the scores table. That's how badly I was coughing that entire day, that entire night before. I would do hits. I would swig day quill to just coat my throat so that I could get through them. Keep in mind, nobody's blinking. Nobody's even blinking. All right?
- [56:43]
Matt Norlander
300 people covered GP.
- [56:45]
Gary Parish
I am interviewing coaches. I am. Nobody has said a word. But you could find this. I have Dayquil sitting on the scores table. Do that game. I wake up the next morning. It's Wednesday. I fly from D.C. probably D.C. to Atlanta, Atlanta to Memphis. On the way home. This is where it feels like. It's starting to feel like the world's changing.
- [57:05]
Matt Norlander
Yeah.
- [57:06]
Gary Parish
I think maybe a nursing home in Seattle had gotten.
- [57:09]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, yeah. And then on the sports front, you know, that's the night Fred Hoiberg looks like he's got to go to the hospital on the sideline of the Big Ten tournament. You got to go Bear stuff. Yes. Wednesday's the day.
- [57:18]
Gary Parish
I fly home. On this Wednesday, I am coughing the whole time. And now it's starting to get uncomfortable to the point where people are looking at me like, oh, he's the one. This is on a plane. And I'm like. I'm like, I feel fine, everybody. But, like, it was so uncomfortable that you felt obligated to point it out.
- [57:35]
Matt Norlander
Yeah.
- [57:36]
Gary Parish
I land and I call my doctor, and I said, hey, listen, man, I. I'm coughing a lot. I feel fine, but I am coughing a lot. I have been in New York city and Washington, D.C. i've been on planes. I've been on Subways, I've been in arenas. I. I'm supposed to get back on a plane on Friday to go back to New York because Selection Sunday is coming up, and I feel fine enough to do it. But you're my doctor. What should I do? And he said, let's see if we can get you a test. And he called around, and the only way I could get tested is if I was willing to drive to Nashville, and if I was willing to say if I lied, I'd have to say, I've recently been to Asia. Otherwise, they're not wasting a test on me. That's where we were at the time. All right? So I said, listen, I can't drive to Nashville and whatever. And he said, my advice to you as your doctor would be to not get back on that plane. Don't get on the plane on Friday. So that's that. Wednesday night. On Thursday, I wake up, I call one of my bosses. I do not remember which one, but I remember this conversation vividly. I said, hey, not that vividly.
- [58:51]
Matt Norlander
You don't remember. You were talking to.
- [58:53]
Gary Parish
I just don't want to say the wrong person and then be like, I never talked to GP So it's. I get two people in my head, okay, I remember this car. Here's the truth. I probably talked to three different bosses, but I remember one of them saying this. I said, I feel fine, and I want to work. You know me. I've literally never called out a day of work my entire life. I'm there. You've seen me cough on set. I'm there for you. But my doctor is telling me he thinks it's risky, irresponsible for me to get on the plane, but I'll let you make the call. What do you want me to do? What should I do? And one of my bosses said, gp, I don't think anybody's getting on a plane on Friday. And that was the first time I heard from somebody, because at this point, they're having. Our bosses are having big meetings with, like, you know, big people. And that was the first time I remember somebody saying, you probably don't need to get on a plane Friday because nobody will get on a plane Friday. And then Kelly and I, my wife and I, we went to lunch, a little place 10 minutes from our home. And I remember this sitting at that lunch table. Do you think this is the last time we're gonna have lunch publicly for a while? And it was like, maybe. And that night is when the, I think, Rudy Gobert stuff started to Happen.
- [60:07]
Matt Norlander
Well, the NBA suspended a season that night.
- [60:09]
Gary Parish
That night. And then NCAA tournament canceled the following day. Yeah, but it was, it was like if you, you could see it coming like a barge, like off in the distance, like, here's where our country is headed. And you, if you paying attention, you could see it coming. But I don't think enough of us were paying attention in the way that we like to think we were. Because we went from thinking, man, how much fun is the NCLA tournament going to be to oh, buddy, we ain't doing that. And it's canceled forever. Was. I don't know exactly how to say it, like this slow building thing that felt like it just, boom, changed everything abruptly. But if you'd have just looked, you could have seen it come.
- [60:52]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, we don't need to belabor the story because, you know, we're going, we're going long as expected on this episode. But ah, man, oh man, what a week that was. What a year that week was. It really was. And remember by that Wednesday night when the NB I, I do remember this, when the NBA put its season on hold, that was even before that announcement came, it felt like the tournament was gonna have to get pushed. How are they going to do this? And then when the NBA, I said, ah, okay, tournament's not getting played right now. And then the next day they announced they were going to cancel the tournament. And then I had to doing some follow reporting and, and calling some sources being like, it's canceled, it's not postponed, it's canceled, it's done. And we're not going to stage this. We can't stage it two, three weeks from now for a variety of reasons. And then there was debate over, well, you know, can you at least give folks like the bracket as it would have been? Like you've done a decent amount of it. Like you can't just, you know. And then that didn't happen, obviously for some understandable reasons. But we were never even given a bracket. The best teams at Ken Palm that season in the top six, 28 and three. Kansas was number one, 31. Two Gonzaga number two. Number three was 26. And four Baylor number four, 29. And two Dayton, number five was 25. And six Duke. And number six was 30. And two San Diego State. It lives as a huge. What if none of those fan bases have to live with the result of not winning the NCAA championship? And all of them can think that their team was indeed going to win the championship? In fact, one of our neighbors, she attended Michigan State and I think they were seventh. But she, she was long out of college obviously by that point. But even for. For her, it's like we were so. We were. We had Cassius Winston. We were so ready. We're, you know, we're coming off of making the Final Four the year before. So it lives on as this huge depression point obviously for a lot of fans. And there was. Yeah, they staged the NCAA tournament every single year except this one obviously the year they didn't play. It is one of the biggest stories in college basket past quarter century. And if you'd like to relive parts of it, you can look up. I believe I titled it. I put the intro from our 2021 first episode of March. I titled it the greatest podcast intro in history or something like that. Just search Matt Norlander, YouTube. You can go back or go back in the feed. Go back to the first episode of March 2021 and you can get an audio version. I consider it my greatest work ever affiliated with this podcast frankly. It kind of hits through this. This one after another after another audio hit of. Of COVID coming and then canceling the tournament and then all the steps that had to be made to ensure that in 2021 we were going to have a tournament. But it would be in the bubble and. And so it happened and so it was. But. But yeah, 2020 itself.
- [63:46]
Gary Parish
Just, just what a time the abruptness of it was. I am standing in an arena on a Tuesday night interviewing coaches and players face to face. No mask. Nobody in the building has mask. Everything is as normal as you could imagine it. Two nights later, the NBA shuts down. The following morning after that NCAA tournaments canceled. And really by that weekend none of us are life were the same. That's how quickly it all like flipped on us and the fan base. I always felt worse for Dayton.
- [64:22]
Matt Norlander
That's short changing San Diego State though. 30 and 2.
- [64:27]
Gary Parish
I'll feel bad for San Diego State too.
- [64:28]
Matt Norlander
But like Dave, you always had it out for San Diego.
- [64:30]
Gary Parish
Staten was going to be a 1 seed. They had a national player of the year, you know, at least co winner and somewhat like Obi Toppin.
- [64:38]
Matt Norlander
Yeah.
- [64:39]
Gary Parish
So when are you ever at Dayton? When are you ever gonna have the national player of the year and a one seed again? I know, you know like, like the other one seeds according to Kenpom at least would have been Kansas, Gonzaga, Baylor. Baylor has subsequently won a championship.
- [64:54]
Matt Norlander
Yeah.
- [64:54]
Gary Parish
Kansas has subsequently won a championship. Gonzaga subsequently played for one.
- [64:59]
Matt Norlander
Yeah.
- [64:59]
Gary Parish
Like Dayton. That, that might be their. Their Dayton fans who will Sit around.
- [65:04]
Matt Norlander
Till they're 90s in their cars that root for Dayton right now that are just punching their steering wheel as.
- [65:09]
Gary Parish
You just never get it back. You just never. It's just gone forever, you know?
- [65:14]
Matt Norlander
I know. And we did think about when we didn't have the tournament. So like hard up for content. We had like a two hour CBS Sports hq. Okay, here's what our CBS Sports simulation here. We're gonna play out the tournament over the course of two hours. So I did. I think you might have been. I definitely was on it for all two hours simulation. Like we did. We did a simulated thing. Dayton won the fake 2020 NCAA tournament as a result. So you'll always have that.
- [65:39]
Gary Parish
I guess. I was very happy for them. They deserve that. They deserve that. I was very happy for them.
- [65:45]
Matt Norlander
Man, history. Oh, it just does wild time to think back on and it's 2025 and think of where our world is today. Let's keep it moving with the final story. This should have been fairly obvious, I think by the time we got to like the top 10. If you were following the podcast series. And it is broadly speaking, from Ed o' Bannon to the transfer portal nil. And revenue sharing legislation ends the century old amateurism model. Really the starting point for this story is, is in July of 2009 when Ed O', Bannon, former UCLA player in the 1990s who was, by the way, a hell of a player, he sued the ncaa and this stemmed from the fact that he saw his nephew playing an NCAA basketball game and noticed a dude that looked just like him but didn't have his name associated with it. The, you know, EA Sports and the ncaa, they were profiting off of his likeness without his consent. It's an antitrust violation. Took him to court and that led to where we are today for sure. But that particular case was overseen by one judge, Claudia Wilkin, if that name rings a bell. Yes, the same Claudia Wilkin who is now retired, but whose last bit of duty serving the court was to approve the House case settlement just last month. She's one of the most influential, important figures in the history of college athletics. As a result, she oversaw the o' Bannon versus NCAA trial side with the Bannon. The NCAA appealed. There were more trials, more people brought in. This continued. You know, that first part of this wrapped in 2014. This eventually got tied into the Alston case and that's where the ninth Circuit upheld the appeal. The Supreme Court eventually also weighed in famously in 2021, voting 9. Nothing on behalf of Alston, which enabled NIL legislation effective in 2021, and it set into motion what we have here today. There's also also other stuff, like the Senate Bill 206 that was passed in California on behalf of Nancy Skinner. That happened in 2019, where states started to take this upon themselves and say, actually, we do empower our players to be able to seek benefits for the name, image, and likeness. And what the NCAA is doing is an antitrust violation. And it's against the liberties of these college athletes that are profiting and not being able to profit off of everything that they're providing to the NCAA and schools and conferences. And it set up where we are now. We're not there. We're not all the way done. But 15 years ago, even less than that, players had no right to any kind of compensation legally. And now we've obviously had nil legislation in place for four years even. You know, earlier this week, I published a big story after spending time on the road about where we are. The reality of college basketball and college sports is this house case settlement. Are collectives really going to dissolve? Are they not going to be what, you know, what they've been the past three or four years? This is an ongoing, evolving story. But the amateurism model ending, and definitively ending after more than a century's worth of existence is, I think, indisputably the number one story in college basketball over the past 25 years.
- [68:47]
Gary Parish
Can't argue with that. It's the biggest game changer for sure. I think the frustrating part for some is that as we sit here in the summer of 2025, like in this moment, yeah. People are com. Don't know what the rules are. They don't know what they're allowed to do. What they're like, I was just at Peach Jam. I know you heard the same thing from coaches. Here's what multiple coaches told me in recruiting right now. There's. There's two kinds of us. Those of us who are being honest and saying, I don't really know. I don't know. I. I know we. In a different world, we have nil money that we would throw on top of you. I. We don't know if that will be approved now. So, like, let's just stay together and like, let's not agree to anything until we get some more clarity on what's allowed and what isn't. And then we'll do everything we can do for you. But I can't make any promises because I'm just. It's It's a little blurry. What we're looking at. There's those coaches and then he said, and then there's the coaches who are like, oh, no, nothing's changed. Like, we get. We got it for you. Everything you need, we're going to get it done. And they'll do their best to get it done, but, like, if they have to lie to get them on campus, they'll just get them on campus and be like, well, I thought we were going to be able to get it done, but now we can't. And, man, isn't that unfortunate. But it's like, I heard from multiple people at different levels of sport, recruiting is very difficult now because, you don't know, we don't all agree on what's allowed and what's not. And we're not all saying the same things to recruits.
- [70:20]
Matt Norlander
Yeah, it's. And here in 2025, where, you know what the. The Edo Band, if you want to do the domino meme that everyone shares and it's Edo Band and watches his nephew play a video game in 2009 or whatever, 2008. And then we have it here now, where collectives are illegal or whatever it is, no one knows. Like, to reference back to what I wrote earlier this week, you know, some coaches told me collectors are going to go underground. And then there's. We mentioned this on a recent show and this was reinforced by coaches. Like, there is.
- [70:54]
Gary Parish
Is.
- [70:54]
Matt Norlander
There is a tangible difference, though. Like, cheating is probably still going to happen, but you can't go. I had, I quote one, one coach in my piece who's a Big east coach who said, you can't go to a booster and say, I need $2 million for a player. That's criminal activity. Like, they're not going to. There's a difference between I need 75, 000 to make sure I get this star running back and I need 2 million because that's the new rate. So we're. What's the balance in between those? And will collectives stand up to scrutiny from individual lawsuits from players? So, again, we are going to eventually get to a place, I do believe, where players will collectively be able to bargain. And that's the place where. Oh, man, I mentioned this at the bottom of my story. I thought back, you know, if I went. If GP and I went on to Peach Jam seven years ago, four years ago, and said, hey, what do you think about players, you know, forming a union, collectively bargaining, being employees, being able to make, you know, 500, 700,000amillion dollars. Most, not all. There would be some that would be even as recently as four years ago would have been like, nah, come on, man. Like if they want to make, you know, $50,000 off their name, image and likeness, if they're a superstar, I got it. And now when they see what the transfer portal and a true open market has done to their job, they're like, can we just get these guys please to unionize to be employees so they can like come to school and sign like a two year contract so I not have to worry about losing nine players every single year. So we're not there with where we need to be. We'll get there eventually. It's going to take a long time, but it is, it has been from the media perspective, the podcast perspective, writing, reporting on it, as you and I have both done parish to see how this has crawled along, but still made its evolutionary process from the o' Bannon lawsuit to where we are today. There were some people, very few, but there were some back at the very nascent part of this when the lawsuit was filed that did see, okay, this is what needed to happen. We will get there. Players will be paid, they will be recognized. Schools will pay players. We are there today. Schools are paying play this very month. Schools are paying their players directly. But it took a long while there and it's been profound transformation at the college level. And, and I don't know what yard left. We're going to put a football analogy to this. I don't know if now we're at the 30 yard line, the 25, the 20. I don't know where we are, but we're a hell of a lot further down the field than we were five, 10, 15 years ago. That's for sure.
- [73:21]
Gary Parish
Yeah, except. And like, I'm glad we're moving the ball down the field, but I still don't think we're in a good place right now. And I don't think we're going to get there until we unionize and collectively bargain. That's always going to be the end game. Anything short of that is going to just be messy, chaotic and yes, create cheating. And I get so mad when I say this and people are like, cheating never left. Yes, it did in the sense that we didn't call it.
- [73:47]
Matt Norlander
It really did for the most part.
- [73:49]
Gary Parish
I know. I don't know why people can't grasp it. Every time I say it, somebody jumps in these stupid ass comments and is like, what do you mean? It's going to bring cheating back. Cheat never Left. And I'm like, Jesus Christ, I've explained it 50 times. Nobody is calling BYU a cheater for getting AJ debance that even though they paid millions of dollars for him. That's what I mean, that everything was like, we know why people are going places. It's because of money. Everything's. Nobody's cheating. This is. They're just doing business. Now you're going to put. Now there are theoretically rules in place that is going to bring the cheating table and the coaches I talked to, like, they don't like that, you know, because they're the ones that get branded. The only reason people show up at LSU games in FBI outfits mocking Will Wade is because like we, we created rules that, that labeled him a cheater. Absence of those rules, he's just a creative basketball coach absent the rules. So it was my go to line forever. If you want cheating out of college athletics, you don't try to clean it up. That ain't working. You, you eliminate the rules or at least some of the rules that create all the cheating. You know, if you don't like handing people tickets, driving 55 and a 50 every day, raise the speed limit so that you're not catching them like this. So cheating had gone away temporarily. Now it will come back. And what the other funny thing I hear on the road talking to coaches is like the power conferences are the ones that push this house settlement through. They wanted this. And do you know who's pissed off about it now? Big Ten basketball coaches and SEC basketball coaches.
- [75:28]
Matt Norlander
I think it's delicious personally. Not that those coaches had any saying whatsoever in this, but yeah thing they.
- [75:33]
Gary Parish
Don'T even think they mattered. I like, I talked to multiple coaches in those leagues and they were like our administrations and conferences just push this stuff through because they realized it would create all of these advantages for our football programs. But now we are at a disadvantaged place as basketball programs. So. So like I had one big team coach tell me this. Do you know what the best thing for our programs actually is for my program would really be what we were doing three weeks ago. No rules. Fill up your collectives with as much money as you can and go throw it around. Yeah, that's what the Big Ten should want. That's what the SEC should want. Let us use all the money that we have more than everybody else and spend it. But now we've put this arbitrary cap on it. Most of our money is going to our football program. And I'm getting outspent by VCU like that, like that's. What I had coaches tell me that power conference coaches say we have our leagues created a system where VCU is out recruiting me now. Yeah, that's it's crazy.
- [76:40]
Matt Norlander
It is but as I wrote on Monday there have been trends swells that have benefited certain programs other over others for 100 years in college athletics and this is the next stage. What comes after this I'm not sure. But don't think just because you're in a place of power you're always entitled to it. And now because it's not the Big east or the or the A10s fault shouldn't be their problem. They don't to get all the pros of football but they're not saddled with the expenses and everything that comes with it as well. And if this is if this is what you want to make it to be with with the salary cap because guess what theoretically granted Parish we know how this is actually work. There's nothing forcing the Big Ten SEC schools to spend all that money on football. That's where their priority you're making that decision. We understand why it has to be you could you could opt not to Kentucky is spending by far more than any other SEC program in its men's because guess what that's what Kentucky prioritizes. So I I get but it is again it's delicious to me that there's this cry of imbalance here coming from power conference schools particularly in those two leagues more than all the others where the deck has been stacked in their favor in so many ways and now they see how they this plot twist here. I find it interesting. That's all. And and you talk to coaches. I talked to him. I quoted one of them in my piece. One of them still maintained what was funny is one of them still maintains I think the quote was Ohio State's not going to let Xavier Illinois is not going to let the Paul and Virginia is not going to let VCU outspend him in college basketball. That's not going to happen now how that's not going to happen I don't know. Okay. You can claim it I and you've said that. I know you said this as well Parrish. That's I that's fine. But on a certain level talk is cheap. I want to see the actions that come in the next year or two that prove that prophecy true. That's all.
- [78:18]
Gary Parish
Are you ready for this? The way the current rules from the House settlement are being interpreted by some there is literally no way for some of these power conference schools to outspend legally?
- [78:35]
Matt Norlander
Yes.
- [78:36]
Gary Parish
Yukon, byu. I mean, not be Yukon, Creighton, vcu. Like it's not possible to do it legally. Like once. Once. These programs say this percentage of our 20.5 million in revenue sharing is going to football at that point, based on what they tell us are the rules now for collectives, it doesn't matter if Virginia doesn't want to let VCU to outspend it.
- [79:01]
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