Gary Parrish (5:06)

Well, it's, I don't know that it's helps or hurts in any sort of tangible way. I guess on one hand you could say, once people know this is the amount of money that's been spent on your roster, there's a lot of pressure on you to deliver. But, like, who has more pressure to deliver heading into next season than Hubert Davis? You know, relative to, you know, the size of the job that you possess. I mean, it's his alma mater. They clearly want this to work, if it can work. But it's been bumpy as, as we've detailed. This seems like something that I've talked about or at least speculated about over the past year many times. Like, you've got a coach, it's not going well. Yeah, you can pay a big buyout and get him out of there and then go pay many millions more to get a new coach and a new staff in place and then go find many millions more to roster build so that your new coach has a shot. Or, or you can save all the buyout money, save all the new coach money and just throw it at nil and see if you can put your theoretical on the hot seat coach in a good position. I know it doesn't work exactly like that, but that's a simple version of how these things can go down. And that appears on some level what they have done at North Carolina. They love Hubert Davis. He's very important to that institution, to that athletic department. And ask Georgetown what it feels like when you've got to pull the trigger on Patrick Ewing. Ask Memphis fans what it feels like when you have to criticize Penny Hardaway. It's not fun to get to an awkward situation with a beloved alum. And so North Carolina has put Hubert in position to succeed. Now it's up to him and his staff to do it. But I will say, if this is one of the five or six or seven most expensive rosters in college basketball, to me at least it doesn't look like one of the five, six or seven best rosters in college basketball. Doesn't mean it can't turn into one of the five, six, seven best teams. You know, as always, we'll see. But when you're just evaluating rosters on June 5, 2025, I don't think if North Carolina's got one of the, let's just say, 10 most expensive rosters in the sport. I don't know that it's one of the 10 best rosters in the sport. Where would you go on that?

Matt Norlander (7:37)

Yeah, so this is how I think it can. It can really work against Hubert Davis because now this number has been reported out there and it is the Kind of story that will make enough of an impact locally, but also beyond that, you know, our national podcast, we're talking about it here. The 14 million will stick. And we'll see between now and next season. How many other schools have an approximate number attached to their, to their, to their roster situation. It wouldn't surprise me if we've got a couple more between, between now and then. But 14 million is a very specific number. And when UNC doesn't win or takes an unexpected loss or two, hey, this is a 14 million dollar roster and this is what you're doing with it. I actually think it can be used as a negative against Hubert Davis. And you know, I'm sure he and that staff didn't want the number out there, but also the number is the number and that's how much they're spending. And, and before, before I just dial into the players on the roster and give our listeners a refresher on that. It is something of a shocking win that we're here. Just a real quick backstory and some context on this. Like people hear about North Carolina spending a ton of money on players and on a broad level, that's not a surprising thing. You know, this is one of the most prideful, accomplished. You really can make the case. You can make the case. I'm not saying it's definitively there, but you can make the case that this is the best job in all of men's college basketball. And you look at the history of it, no program has more Final Fours and the longest Sweet 16 run and everything, the School of Jordan and all of that. But ironically enough, and I detailed some of this in reporting last season, you know, Hubert Davis had grown frustrated with the lack of consistent financial support from a number of high ranking ultra wealthy boosters around Chapel Hill. And a lot of their attention and money was going to the football program. And so in the past couple of years, while North Carolina had some nil resources, it certainly didn't rank among the top 5, 10, or maybe not even in the top 15 of the sport. That just doesn't square. This is the University of North Carolina. You've got Duke right down the road, you know, 7.9 miles. But as the crow flies, or so I've heard, or whatever the hell it is, and that's going to lead to frustration. Then you hire Bill Belichick and everything that's come with that. And the, I believe it's, you know, when you take into account the football support for its players and nil and then the coaching Salaries believe that's well north of 40 million that is, if not 50 million that's been allotted just for Carolina football. Never before has that university and its backers put this much into the football program. You can understand why when you consider, you know, Belichick and everything that comes with that and Jordan Hudson stuff all entirely to the side. The fact that UNC's men's basketball program has been able to, in, I don't know, GP 7 months time effectively go from we're not getting nearly enough support in this arms race that is, you know, the free for all in the nil world to having, you know, even if the number is I, I take inside Carolina at its word here, but it's definitely above 10 and 11 million. So even at 12 or 13, that's still a huge win for them to even have gotten to this point. But it definitely is, it is the you need to win and we need huge dividends no matter what next season. It is making the tournament. It's not even maybe just wearing home whites. It's second week in appearances, it's top two, top three ACC finish, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 seed kind of stuff. That's the bar that Huber Davis will probably have to hit there. And it is intriguing. We're not going to relitigate his entire coaching career, but this does speak to Carolina and the expectations therein because overall Hubert Davis has one of the more interesting coaching journeys of the past four or five years. 10 years, 15 years if you want to expand it out. He obviously hasn't been the head coach that long, but but year one title game after some regular season skittishness, up and downs, bumps, then you know, you went at Duke and coach case career, you ended at Cameron in the regular season, then you ended in the final four and you make the title game as an eight seed, then you're the preseason number one. You don't make the tournament. You'd become the first program ever to be preseason number one, not even make the NCAA tournament. Last year they were a one seed, made the sweet 16, got bounced quality season overall, came up a little bit short, but a 1 seed and 29 win season. This past season they squeak into the tournament controversially. So they're athletic director is the chair of the selection committee. They're an 11 seed, they win 23 games, they're able to pick off San Diego State in the, in the first four. But then they get, they get appropriately beaten by Ole Miss in the first round. And so now he goes into Next season, like genuinely on the hot seat. It hasn't been a disaster, it hasn't been an outright success. But Carolina fans aren't going to stand for this amount of turbulence on a year by year basis. Now, the roster, this is what a reported 14 million are in that ballpark will get you returning players. Seth Trimble, you know the name, you know, 11 and a half per game. Okay, Solid player. James Brown, unless you, and it's not that James Brown, unless you are a Carolina fan, you have no idea who James Brown is. But those are the guys back in on the roster. Then you've got Henry Visar coming in from Arizona who was one of the better big acquisitions in the entire portal process. Kyan Evans from Colorado State. Okay, we'll see what he can do. He averaged, you know, 10 and change on, on CSU and was, you know, option three at best there. Okay. Jaren Stevenson's from Alabama. He could pop. He could be a player that matters. Average 5.4-point points per game last season. GP Jonathan Powell, role player at West Virginia, he joins the fold. Jaden Young, role player at Virginia Tech, he joins the fold. The freshman of note, Caleb Wilson is unquestionably the stud. He's the, I think he's the best ranked incoming freshman in college basketball that hasn't been talked enough about for the amount of impact that he could have. Again, we'll get there as we move along throughout this off season. But Caleb Wilson has a shot, has a shot here to really be quite tremendous next season. So he comes in in addition to a couple other lower ranked players, nowhere near five star status. And Derek Dixon and Isaiah Dennis, they also recently acquired an international player. We'll see what his impact is overall. But that's for 14 million and that is, that is an underwhelming roster for the price attached to it. And so that's why I think this story ultimately, you know, not a great thing for Hubert Davis. You'd rather have it kind of be vaguely out there in the ether now there's a specific number attached to it. And in addition to all the pressure that was, that was going into next season, I think this just amps it up a little bit more.

Gary Parrish (14:04)

Yeah, my initial point was like Hubert is going to enter the season as the face of that hot seat list, right? When you build that thumbnail, he'll be on it. And so there was already inherent pressure. But sure, the 14 million number being out there so publicly does create a situation where if they struggle, it'll never stop at North Carolina struggling. It'll be North Carolina struggling. And can you believe they're struggling after spending $14 million on the roster? Like, you'll see big headlines. It'll say $14 million failure like number gets attached to you. It's happened in professional sports forever. Still buzz, obviously, like, Juan Soto can't go over four. And it just be Juan Soto went over four. It's Juan Soto went over four and they gave him $765 million. It's the largest contract in professional sports history. When you get these big numbers attached to you in whatever world you're operating in, they, they become a part of your story. Ask Coleman Hawkins how many times the amount of money he reportedly got at Kansas State was brought up to him on social media over the past year. Over and over and over again. So absolutely, that will be the life that Hubert Davis is living. At the end of the day, it'll just be a bottom line business. Did you do the job well enough to keep it or not? But there will be no excuses here. They gave him the money to have a top 10 tee.

Matt Norlander (15:37)

Yes.

Gary Parrish (15:37)

And if the question is, can you believe they went from spending whatever they were spending just two years ago to this, the answer is yes, I can believe it because it works similar similarly to the way I talked about it working in the sec. You know, everybody just points to the other guy and says, you got to give me what he's got. And you know, after a while, it doesn't.

Matt Norlander (16:00)

GP sometimes the coach that's struggling can't get that fund. And it's almost like you're setting them up to fail. And that's not what happened here. They were actually able to rally. Now, maybe it's because it's Carolina basketball and they care about that much. But sometimes, as you well know, it does not go this way. They just kind of leave you out to dry.

Gary Parrish (16:14)

Yes. I have had coaches who have told me, I bet you've heard the same, who will tell you, I think my boosters are trying to get me out of here and they're making my job harder than it needs to be. Like what I need to. And that's been a thing forever. But it's especially true in the IL era. People who are supposed to be helping me or hurting me, people are supposed to be aiding me, are making it more difficult. And yes, that's a thing. But at Carolina, I think you've got it right. It's just Carolina basketball. And when Duke is doing what it's doing in the world, I think it's very easy for the people who care about Carolina basketball to say we've got to do something. Let's find the money. But we can't keep watching them spin like this and put on the Cooper flag show if if we're not in the same ballpark. And so you get in the same ballpark. As for the roster, you broke it down. I have them 25th in the top 25 and one our good buddy Jeff Barzello also has them 25th. Bart Torvick.com has them 27. So it at least on paper does it project as as a top 10 team right now. But you know, as always, we'll see. It's it's June 5th.

Matt Norlander (17:35)

Agreed that in mind. We had other news here on this week and some some good stuff to talk about. Two blue we talked Carolina. That's a blue blood. Two other blue bloods have agreed to a home and home series and that's a wonderful thing for college basketball. It will start next season. It's Kansas and UConn. We're going to get into that after the break. But first, nada. How about a word from our part.

Gary Parrish (17:55)

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Matt Norlander (18:24)

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All for free. Get get ready to feel the free with all the blockbusters one summer can handle and keep up with the action from virtually any of your devices. Summer will never be the same. Pluto TV stream now pay never. Big headline on Wednesday. UConn and Kansas to the best programs in the sport run by two of the best coaches in the sport have agreed to a home and home series starting next season. I dig it. How much do you dig it?

Matt Norlander (18:53)

I dig it big time. UConn continues to stock up on its non conference because Kansas as well. I mean these are going to be two of the three, four, five best non conference slates overall. It's really cool to see that these coaches came together to make this happen. Bill Self has been unafraid for home and homes for basically entirety of his Kansas career, which I'd like to see. He's on a relatively short list of high major coaches that have embraced this. Obviously his job security is as good as just about anyone and you look at Dan Hurley, that's the case as well. Speaking of job security, real quick, we can talk schedules and stuff, but as we talk here this week, we have, if you listen to The Tuesday Top 25 stories, I hope you enjoyed it. If you haven't gotten to it yet, please go seek that out. But we did do a quick diversion into the New York Knicks vacancy and we do have an update on the Hurley end. So one thing I can report, I said on HQ Wednesday, and then we actually have words from Hurley. I was told Wednesday that the Knicks had not reached out to Hurley's camp, which is to say, you know, his agent, his representation there. So it would not appear as though there was an indication that the Knicks are prioritizing going after Dan Hurley one year after the Lakers pegged him to be their next coach and he turned LA down. Obviously, the Knicks is a very different situation. But in addition to that, as coincidence would have it, Andrea Hurley, Dan's wife, was given an honor, an award locally on Wednesday. And I believe the Aqua Turf in Connecticut, which, which residents of the state will know is a very popular prom destination. But there was a, there was a banquet, there was a get together, there was a small group of media that attended there. And the exact quote from Hurley when asked was not another summer of that end quote. So shy of entirely shutting down the New York Knicks stuff, the understanding here is that the Knicks aren't prioritizing Hurley and Hurley is not looking to, you know, bail on Yukon in the first week of June and, and then go through another two, three week process of will he won't he kind of stuff there. So if you're a Yukon fan, you're thrilled. I wasn't expecting it to go this way. I guess you don't entirely close the door, but it doesn't seem like it's, it's happening there. I guess we still wait for the J right out now. Denial there. But I'll just double down on what I said earlier, earlier in the week on the show. As for UConn in Kansas on the scheduling, I absolutely love it. I know I said something on the podcast that UConn fans went crazy on. Understandably so. This was last year. So UConn played at Kansas in 2023. This was the 2324 season. UConn lost that game. It was only three losses. Yukon took that season before it won a second straight national championship. And then as it was told to me by multiple sources, that that game was played because the Big east and Big 12 had a fox deal. They had the Big East, Big 12 challenge and then, you know, you've got your two premium programs in each of the conferences. UConn went there one year. Then let's get Kansas to the return for the next year. And that was the initial plan. And then that plan stopped being the plan and Kansas did not return. Well, whatever discussions that needed to take place for these coaches and these coaching staff to say, hey, let's, let's just make this happen. Let's do it. I'm glad they did it. Now UConn's got to take a second trip to Lawrence before Kansas will come back. Come up here to my nutmeg state here in 2026. But it's terrific, it's tremendous. And we champion home and homes true on campus environments among, you know, your top 25, top 30 top 40 level teams GP, you know, well, we continually bang the drum and it's a good thing to do so but it's a, it's a step above when you've got, you know, seven or eight true blue blood programs in college basketball And Kansas and UConn are quite clearly that and they are intentionally seeking each other out to play each other on their home, their home turf. I think it's awesome. This game is going to be played December 2nd and Lawrence, I'll throw it back to you after I give you all this. I'm going to give you the non conference edges for these schools right here because it's awesome. Yukon, it's byu and these are the rankings that you have, by the way. So this every single high major non conference opponent UConn has scheduled right now is ranked in Paris's top 25 and 1. I don't even know if you realize that GP or not, but they've got BYU, who's number three, that's going to be in Boston for the hall of Fame Classic. AJ debanson, who's from the area. They've got Florida number six. That'll be at MSG for the Jimmy V. They've got Arizona number 11 at home. They've got Kansas number 18 at KU. They've got Texas, which is your number 23 team that's going to be in stores. And then they've got Illinois, the 24th team in your rankings at the Garden, which is fascinating in this regard. The last time UConn and Illinois played there was a 30 to nothing run. And the last time Illinois played at the Illinois's two most embarrassing moments as a program happened either at the Garden or against Yukon and now they're gonna, they brought both those factors in for next season. Best of luck to Brad Underwood for Kansas at Carolina. See, I think Kansas is doing something that maybe only four or five will have next season at the high major level. They've got two road games against power conference opponents at Carolina, start the season. Then November 18th they're against Duke at the Garden for Champions Classic. They're going to play in the Players ERA Tournament out in Vegas the week of Thanksgiving. Those opponents are to be determined. In fact, we'll get them within a week here. So we will wait and see. But they're going to play at least one, probably two really good opponents there. They've got Yukon Dec. 2, they've got Missouri in Kansas City. So that's a neutral this upcoming season. December 7th and they're at NC State December 13th. So it's not just that these two are playing each other, Parrish. It's that they have willingly opted into this already knowing that their non conference schedules would have been sufficient without the games. They don't play scared. They don't schedule scared. Credit to Bill Self. Credit to Dan Hurley. Huge for college hoops to have two programs at this level agreeing to play each other and not on a neutral, not in an NBA arena. These are going to be on campus games the next two seasons.

Gary Parrish (24:33)

Love it. Obviously for all the reasons you said and more appreciate Bill and Dan being willing to load up like this when we both know other coaches of prominent programs just won't just refuse. And the truth is, this is the way to do it. You have two of the biggest brands in the sport. You are two of the best coaches in the sport. There is so much wiggle room in the regular season to still safely land you on the right side of the bubble if you happen to even be sniffing the bubble. This is not, you know, a previous era of college football when you better be ranked number one or number two and possibly undefeated or you can't play for the national title. We put 68 teams in a tournament and UConn and Kansas should almost always like literally almost always.

Matt Norlander (25:28)

Kansas literally always be, be one of.

Gary Parrish (25:32)

Those 68 teams and so play each other, play everybody else. At the end of the day, you'll, you'll be in the bracket where you always land. I can watch and enjoy a game at the Pentagon. I can watch and enjoy a game at MGM Green Garden. I can watch and enjoy a game pretty much anywhere. But they're always better like this. Like Dan Hurley walking into Allen Fieldhouse is A scene. I love that scene. Bill Self walking into Gamble is a scene. I like that scene. I like it when coaches and John Shire is doing it this way as well at Duke. I like it when coaches recognize the type of property they are in charge of. And you can, you can take this places where it matters, where people will remember it forever. I, I could just tell you here in Memphis people like still that I don't want to overstate it. Be like every, every time you walk down the street somebody brings it up. But like I can, I can, I can. To my friends say remember when Adam Morrison and Gonzaga came here that year? And they'll go oh yeah, that was, that was something like it. When the Zags come to a place, it matters. When Duke goes somewhere, it matters. When North Carolina goes somewhere, it matters. When Indiana goes somewhere, it matters. And when you kind of Kansas go places, it matters. And I like that they're going to go to each other's places. It's terrific.

Matt Norlander (26:53)

You mentioned Gonzaga and Duke coincidentally back to back. Few has told me in a lobby this right now John Shire got it done. There's only like when I went up to Gonzaga a few years ago we got to talking about this and Mark Few has only not had Duke. He's got Kentucky now. There was basically like you take a look at the, the 10 most successful programs in the history of men's college basketball, whatever and I think he said it was Duke and maybe one of the schools that had that he wanted to get up to Spokane like let's get them up here and, and maybe we can get that done before Mark Few decides to retire. That would be really, really cool. UConn and Kansas could wind up having the two toughest non conference schedules. We'll see how it all like once we play the games and we see how good the teams are then things change obviously. But going in here's the case for both of them real quick and then we'll get to a really fun segment that I'm looking forward to. So UConn just it has in addition to its 20 game biggie schedule, whatever comes with that, it's got six high major non conference games which you have checked the box Dan Hurley that that is that you'll play 20 in the Big east six high majors and then the other five will be home buy games against mid majors. And that's completely understandable and no issue whatsoever there but the fact that it is six and they are all preseason ranked teams by you and honestly like highly likely to all be Preseason ranked teams. I guess there's a. I, I think Illinois is a borderline locked to be preseason ranked. The only one that, that you have ranked that maybe you could see as unranked is maybe Texas under Sean Miller in year one. We'll see. But with that said, UConn having six ranked teams has a strong case for it, but it does have Arizona at home, Texas at home and then you've got two at store South. What's interesting about Kansas is it's probably going to have at least seven because again at Carolina, at NC State, Missouri Champions Classic, Duke, Yukon, that's five. And then players error will be three games and two, you know, two of those are going to be good. So that's probably gonna be at least seven legitimate. It could be eight. The Big 12 is no longer a 20 game schedule like the Big East. They're down to 18. So that's part of why Kansas could do this but also can't. Like Bill Sell, I just. This is incredible. Like you look at it, they only have one of their games against high major non conference opponents. Only one, Only one. And it's the Yukon game is at the Fog. Carolina and NC State are on the road. Duke is going to be at the Garden. Missouri is in nearby Kansas City. Not a home game. It's Mizzou in Kansas City and then the players era stuff is all out in Las Vegas. So if you want to make the case for Kansas, it could have a higher and it probably almost definitely will have a higher inventory of high major non conference opponents and only gets one game at home. So that's, that's intriguing stuff and it's all too appropriate that UConn and Kansas by building this up, found a way to play each other that's really, really cool. I hope every single other coach that is overseeing what could be objectively viewed as a top 20 to 25 level program sees what's happening here and actively goes and pursues and sees it. It just anecdotally GP in talking to these head coaches here and there. You know, sprinkle, sprinkle a little bit of this and that. You know, over the months I find more of them are more willing now than what the tenor and environment was seven, eight years ago when we still got these games. It just isn't at the level. But stick around on the podcast once we get to September and October, like the college basketball schedule and the non conference in the first six weeks of the season is extremely good. Like we had it last season as well. It is it's awesome to see that there are more coaches willing to buy into this concept and not be afraid from scheduling and. Yeah, you need guys like Hurley and Self in addition to your izzos and Shires and all that too. And Tommy Lloyd and going down the list to. To set the model and. And hopefully it. It becomes all the more contagious.

Gary Parrish (30:35)

Yeah. Give credit to Tom is though. He's been doing this for a long time. Was doing it before Boast. As for Bill, you get a lifetime contract in a Darren Peterson. Man. Let's just. Let's just go play.

Matt Norlander (30:46)

Anybody?

Gary Parrish (30:47)

I got a lifetime contract and a Darren Peterson. Oh, let's play. All right, so I get it.

Matt Norlander (30:53)

And not the preseason number one and not even close to it. So even that's like. It's like, I don't have to deal with this again next season. Let's just, you know, roll the balls out and see how it goes.

Gary Parrish (31:01)

Yeah, I. I will say. And then we'll move on. Another aspect of, like going into true road environments as opposed to neutral court stuff is like, with all due respect to all the neutral court spots, I'm not trying to crap on anything or anybody, but like, you walk in, they're usually half full. Maybe not like, it's just not the same. You aren't even a player. I'm not a player. We have memories of walking into on campus arenas. You know, you know what it looked like and felt like the first time you walked into Cameron Indoor. You know what it felt like the first time you were in Allen Field House. I have memories of the kennel, of assembly hall, of all of these places. And so I would just like, if I were a coach, want to give that to my student athletes. I want my players. They're not all going to the NBA for some of them, for most of them, this is going to be the biggest basketball experiences they ever have. And I would love to have them sitting around with their grandkids someday saying, yeah, oh, yeah, we played at Allen Field House. Oh, man, it was amazing. They started that chant. Oh, boy. Never seen anything like that. Yeah, we did play it Cameron indoor this one time. We did go to the kennel. I think. I think there's real value there. Sure. You might lose a true road game against an awesome basketball team. So what, you just gave somebody a memory forever. That. That I think clearly overwhelms whatever memory they could get from playing that same game on a neutral court outside of the neutral court. Maybe being Madison Square guard.

Matt Norlander (32:36)

I agree. So well said. We can move on. But I do want to address someone that just mentioned something in the chat. Does UConn actually have William Lewis who's got a UConn avatar? Does UConn actually have 5 by games? I thought they could only play 11 non conference games if they play an MTE which they don't have scheduled at. Remember UConn played at Maui last year and after they went, oh, and three, Dan Hurley came home, did a press conference, said we're never doing that.

Gary Parrish (32:58)

Never.

Matt Norlander (32:59)

I'm doing the mte. This is what, this is a major benefit for college basketball over college football, which has its own college football, has most of its non conference games scheduled out 3, 5, 7, sometimes literally 12 and 15 years in advance. For the most part, college basketball's programs, although they have like UConn in Kansas, okay, they've got a two year home and home there is a game accounted for a year from now. But these schools have the ability to be nimble to schedule the non conference on a year by year basis, which allows it to put itself in a much better position for more high profile. Matt, the fact that we get Florida and UConn at the Garden and then Jimmy V. And those are the two most recent national championship winners and then we also get UConn Kansas, who is also responsible for the, the fourth most recent national championship is wonderful, wonderful, wonderful stuff. This was, this was a, a good unexpected bit of news break that we got midweek here in the, in the start of June.

Gary Parrish (33:48)

All right, one last thing we want to do. This is Norlander's idea and we planned to do it last week while we were in the conference finals of the NBA playoffs. We pushed it off because we had other things pop up, but we still wanted to go through the exercise.

Matt Norlander (34:04)

Name.

Gary Parrish (34:04)

Five players in these NBA finals whose NBA careers have surprised us the most. In other words, we watched him in college, we covered him in college, we wrote about them, we talked about them. And we had.

Matt Norlander (34:19)

We didn't. That's the point. We did not write and talk about Pascal Siakam. That did not happen.

Gary Parrish (34:25)

I feel like, I feel like I had a Pascal Siakam column in me somewhere.

Matt Norlander (34:29)

Okay.

Gary Parrish (34:30)

I felt like I had a pastel.

Matt Norlander (34:32)

Please.

Gary Parrish (34:35)

My name and Pascal Siakam's name have never appeared in the same.

Matt Norlander (34:39)

On the same page on the Internet. Not until now.

Gary Parrish (34:42)

Maybe a mock draft. Maybe a mock draft once upon a time. So we watched him in college. We. Maybe not. Maybe we didn't even watch.

Matt Norlander (34:50)

We did not watch Jalen Williams in college on that Note as you set up the bit here. Here's how I approach this. And then consider it is what, you know, what we thought these players would be once they were done with, like going into their respective NBA drafts. It wasn't like, hey, it's the middle of the Jalen Williams Jr. Year. It's not that. It's when they were approaching the draft or when they got drafted or not how we thought that. That's how I approached my list.

Gary Parrish (35:14)

And that is also how I approach my list. So let's get one more word from our partners and then we'll go through the list.

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It's starting to look that way.

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Gary Parrish (36:04)

FBI. The hunt is on. No matter how good you are, no matter how good your team is, you're not good enough.

Matt Norlander (36:14)

Don't miss the new season of Criminal Minds Evolution. Now streaming on Paramount plus.

Gary Parrish (36:20)

Okay, we did not discuss this like, like every other list we talk about. There was no, like every other list we've been talking about. There's literally no communic between us.

Matt Norlander (36:30)

That's right.

Gary Parrish (36:31)

And that's how you end up, Bob Knight not even being on the list. Okay, I. So I got five players. I believe I got three OKC players and two pacers. And my list starts.

Matt Norlander (36:45)

Are we going one? Are we going one to five? Are we going five to one?

Gary Parrish (36:50)

Hey, I'll let you pick. I think let's start with the most surprising. Let's just start right at the top.

Matt Norlander (36:57)

Hold on. Okay, let's start. Go ahead. Start with your number one. Who's your number one?

Gary Parrish (37:00)

It's Alex Caruso from the Oklahoma City Thunder. He was number one four year player at Texas A and M. Yes. Never averaged more than 9.1 points per game in the four seasons he played at A and M. He was the Sixth leading scorer, the third leading score, the third leading scorer and the fourth leading scorer. He obviously went undrafted. I went back and found Sam. See any big board from that year? He was 98 on San Vicente's big board heading into the draft. Goes undrafted. He's now an eight year NBA player. An incredibly important rotation piece for the best professional basketball team in the world. He's currently on a four year deal worth $81 million relative to where we thought Alex Caruso was as he left Texas A and M. Going from that to an $80 million contract to likely world champion and you played an important role in it. That's. That's awesome.

Matt Norlander (38:05)

He's my number two player on the list. The fact that he. Yeah, listen. Undrafted and he's only, you know, he started going from that to. He has started 138 out of nearly 470 games in his career. He only made the tournament one time and it was his senior year. That A M team was a three seed Sweet 16 run in. In doing this, by the way, I checked, you know, sports reference and at the NBA level I known this but I've forgotten it because I'm not checking, you know, sports reference, pro stats all that much. They have. The nicknames listed here are all. Who the hell knew Alex Caruso's nickname list. You ready for this? Bald Mamba. Yeah. Bald Eagle.

Gary Parrish (38:54)

Sure.

Matt Norlander (38:55)

Caruso. I had actually heard. I hadn't heard Bald Mamba or Bald Eagle. Kurusho. I'd heard goat. Goat. Goat is one of this dude's nicknames. A.C. white Mamba 2.0.

Gary Parrish (39:08)

Yes.

Matt Norlander (39:09)

And the Accountant. This is. Someone find me a better nickname list of any NBA player ever. Thank you.

Gary Parrish (39:18)

Well, I mean I've got, I've got on Apollo Creed right here. That's a pretty good nickname list.

Matt Norlander (39:23)

Oh, there we go. There we go. Apollo Creed, I love it. White Mamba 2.0 I think is my favorite. I don't know what the hell goat's doing on there. Who is referred to as the goat. Like me when I watched it, When.

Gary Parrish (39:37)

I watched it, when I watched him lock up Jaren Jackson Jr. In game three of the Western Conference playoffs. I was sitting inside FedEx forum going, this dude's a goat. I guess. I mean, I don't know how he's giving up five inches to Jaren Jackson Jr. And taking the ball from him every possession, but I guess he's a goat. I guess that's what goats do.

Matt Norlander (39:59)

And they throw him on Jokic too. Right? It's just, just amazing.

Gary Parrish (40:03)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's awesome. He is, he is the type of player you want on your basketball team.

Matt Norlander (40:10)

Yes.

Gary Parrish (40:11)

Period.

Matt Norlander (40:11)

He is a two time all defensive player. Considered like a top five defender in the, in the league. 37.6 from three. His the only reason why I didn't put him number one. Now he has been a huge surprise. 6.9 points, 2.9 rebounds, 2.8 assists. So the, the, the stats are pedestrian but I had him number two. I have SGA as my number one and here's why. When I in fact in building out this I specifically remember I went. So every year the draft happens on a Thursday and so that that Tuesday or Wednesday there was media availability for all the guys who get the green room invites. And I remember covering that year's draft. You want to go back in time, I'll give you some of the names that were selected that year. The SGA's table, while it had the occasional media person out there, just you know, he was outside the top 10, wasn't predicted to be a high pick and he wasn't getting a ton of attention there. That was the draft with Deandre Ayton. That was that. Who went 1. Marvin Bagley went 2. Luca went 3. Jaren Jackson Jr. Went 4. Trey Young went 5. Mo Bamba went 6. Keep on down the line. SGA winds up going 11 in that draft to the Clippers. The Hornets had the pick. They shipped it off. He played on a Kentucky team where he was not the best player. He was not. He was, he was second overall. And in general statistics, Kevin Knox was the most productive. SGA was 2. PJ Washington, you know, maybe 2A, 2B with those two. Hamid Diallo, quad A green one. Gabriel, that was I believe, I think that was the youngest UK team ever. Which says something considering how many of those teams were freshmen dominated under John Calipari. They were a five seed. They went 26 and 11. They lost to K State in the Sweet 16. SGA was a five star player but ranked 20th in his class. I think he is the most surprising in this regard. Yeah, he was a lottery pick but no one ever thought that this guy was going to be a first team all NBA player, let alone the mvp, let alone the face of a franchise that would make the NBA finals, let alone the best player on one of the most dominant, statistically dominant teams that we've ever seen. And he's on that team that he's on now is not the team that picked him. Obviously his for his career. He's averaging 24.4 points, 5.1 assists, 4.8 boards. He's a three time All NBA player. He is about if, if Oklahoma City wins the finals, he's going to join a rare list of someone who won the scoring title, won the mvp and then they gotta win four. So we'll see if they can do it. And won the finals in the same year and finals mvp. If he can do that. That list has like Shaq Jordan, Magic Johnson, there's like five guys ever who have done that. And Shade Gilders Alexander is four wins away and being himself from basically achieving that. So for, for the. It was close to me gp, but I have. SGA is the most surprising NBA career of any guy in the finals. And Caruso, number two. Where's SGA on your list?

Gary Parrish (43:19)

In number two. So we're splitting hairs here. I've got a Crusoe sga. You've got it. Sga. Caruso. Not interested in an intense argument about it. But if I were like, you know, if it was a competition, I would argue it this way. Shane Gilbert Alexander was selected 11th in the draft. So like there is. And I know that he's the mvp, but this is sort of a best player on best team MVP award as opposed to scoring.

Matt Norlander (43:50)

Like, I know people don't think he's better than Jokic and I don't either, but he led the league in scoring, so there's some of that. But he also in many ways deserved it.

Gary Parrish (43:58)

Oh, I'm not even arguing that he doesn't deserve it. I'm just saying he got it mostly because he's the best player on the best team. And yeah, led the league in scoring and all that. But my point is, I have never heard anybody call Shade Gilgis, Alexander the best player in the world. Nobody that I respect has ever called him that. That's the best player in the world. We have at times said that about LeBron. We have at times said that about Jokic, about Giannis. I don't think we've reached a point yet and we might, we might never reach that point where people say it about SGA. So yeah, MVP, sure. But he really has just gone from the 11th pick in the draft to one of the best basketball players in the world. And I don't know how rare that is relative to this. A guy who was 98, on a big board, undrafted, be never averaging double figures in four years of college, becoming an important rotation piece on the best team in the world, that. That seems more rare than the 11th pick in the Draft becoming one of the best players in the world. But we don't have to argue it over. Let's go to number three on my list. I got Pascal Siaki, 27 pick, 27th pick in the 2016 draft out of New Mexico State. Those guys often don't even get a second contract. All right. He's now a 10 year pro and he is the leading scorer for a team in the NBA Finals. Halliburton's the star. But Siakam is the leading scorer on a team that just won the Eastern Conference. And to go from the 27th pick to that is. Is yeah. Pretty surprising.

Matt Norlander (45:41)

It is surprising. He's not on my list. He was the first cut. He was a monster in the whack. By the way nickname Spicy P. Spicy P. Oh idea.

Gary Parrish (45:53)

I wish my nickname was Spicy P.

Matt Norlander (45:55)

To be clear, this was a very. I wanted to put him on the list. He is, he is my six on the list. He was awesome. Now I actually do remember watching Siakam. Incredibly dominant, efficient, monster whack player of the year in New Mexico State. Averaged 17 points, almost 10 boards and you know, since he was on the Raptors for most of his career, obviously was a big factor on the team that won the title in 2019. He's been a three time All Star, All NBA second team in 2020, all third team in 2022. But he is just short of mine. My third is Jalen Williams, nicknamed J Dub by the way. Now I did a whole big feature on Jalen Williams the year he got drafted because he was at Santa Clara, three year player there and you know a portion of his career in college was covet affected. You know he had, they didn't even live on campus for most of one of his seasons there. But he went 12th in the 2022 draft and no players stock rose higher in a shorter window of time than Jalen Williams who when he declared for the draft wasn't sure he would get picked up. And then a month later, hey, you're Gonna go top 15. Almost definitely. He winds up going 12 to OKC. He was a first team all WCC player in 2021, 2022 average, 12.6 points, 3.7 rebounds, 2.9 assists while in college he was the first Santa Clara player drafted since Steve Nash. But here's, here's why I have him third. He was an all NBA third team guy this past season. He made the all star team this past season. He's averaging better than 18 points, four and a half rebounds and 4.3 assists for his NBA career. And while I thought I tr as a function of me having to talk to him and his parents and his coaches like I did, I wrote about him because I thought, hey, he's going to step in, and he's actually going to be a player that sticks around for a long time. He's got all the tools. He's super smart. He's aced his interview process. If he goes to the right franchise, like, he is going to stick in the league. This. This is not a fake rise. And that has been proven to be correct. But even with that, he has moved into a place where he is one of. Comfortably one of the 20 best players in the NBA. And the fact of the matter is, when he declared for the NBA draft, almost nobody knew who the hell this guy was. You almost never saw him. He played for Santa Clara. They didn't make the tournament. A lot of their games got canceled because of COVID They. They weren't a great team. So for me, surprise value where he is now versus what he was the week leading up to his being picked in 2022. I got Jalen Williams three. I figure he has to be on your list. I will guess you have him at number four.

Gary Parrish (48:31)

He was my first cut. I cut him off.

Matt Norlander (48:33)

Oh, my gosh. How about that? So both our number three players were cuts on our list.

Gary Parrish (48:38)

He. I mean, everything you said is true. What I'm about to say is also true. He's a lottery pick who became like a top three player on a great team. That's not that unusual.

Matt Norlander (48:49)

That's not that unusual. But it's all the context there makes it more surprising to me.

Gary Parrish (48:53)

Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. Like, again, we're nitpicking here, but that's. That's. That's why I ultimately cut it, because, okay, maybe we didn't talk about Jalen Williams while he was actually playing college basketball. But. But it became. But it became obvious as the draft was approaching, this guy's going in the lottery. He went in the lottery, and then he became a top three player on a really good team, a great team, an elite team. Like, that's not unusual. That's not too unusual, but whatever. So I went caruso sga siaka. My number four is TJ McConnell from the Pacers, unselected in the 2015 NBA Draft. Wasn't in Sam Bassini's top 100. And I don't say this to, like, you know.

Matt Norlander (49:38)

You know how much I love Sam. We'll get to you if we had time. But rub up, we got to be out of here in like six minutes. So I don't know if we're gonna have time.

Gary Parrish (49:44)

Yeah. And when we get to the first thing we're going to make you do is explain that 2015 big board. What was going on with that 2015 big board? I mean, my God. No, he just is a disaster. Like I'm, I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed that I found the 2015 big board. No, I just mean that that's how often everything McConnell was. And it wasn't because he wasn't a known college player. Like he was a very good college player. It was just he's a 6 foot 1 guard. That alone sets the odds heavily against you.

Matt Norlander (50:14)

You can also say the other part. He was six foot one, white guard.

Gary Parrish (50:18)

Yeah, I mean you just, I mean I don't want to get in all the stereotypes, but we're all thinking the same thing. So you know, to go from not even being in the top 100 to being a 10 year NBA veteran and somebody that can impact games and can change games, high level games like that's, that's to go from there to there, that's wildly unusual.

Matt Norlander (50:40)

McConnell's number five on my list. Nicknames Floor General.

Gary Parrish (50:44)

Yeah, of course he's a coach on the floor, I guarantee you that.

Matt Norlander (50:50)

Coach on the floor. And yeah, thank God Jim Rat wasn't putting floor general McClutchle. Which is do these get put because like three people tweeted about him once. Who calls this dude McCluthel? And then Rocco, okay, 7.6 points, 5.0 assists for his NBA career. And yeah, like he is stuck in the league for 10 years and by the way been on playoff teams in five of his 10 seasons there he finished at Arizona. He started his career at Duquesne. Man was an all American Honorable mention in 2014-15 his senior year. A two time all Pack 12 defensive player, starting point guard on back to back Elite Eight teams at Arizona under Sean Miller. Those teams were 1 and 2 seeds by the way. They lost to Wisconsin in both of those years. So yes, as a college player he was well known, regarded as, you know, one of the 20 to 25 best players in college over the final year or two of his career. But this guy went undrafted and has stuck and been an important role player. He was number five on my list. Number four on your list. Barring any kind of stunner I, we must have the same. Number four on my list is tyrese Halliburton. Is he number five on yours? No. Oh my gosh.

Gary Parrish (51:56)

I mean there's a lot. He's a lottery pick who turned into a great.

Matt Norlander (51:59)

Way too broad and basic on this. Okay, I'll go with mine and then you go with. Go with yours. Okay. I have Tyrese Halliburton who by the way, I have a feature up on him right now. Nana, we can go ahead and link in the description if you could be so kind to do that after the fact. How he went from being a guy who weighed and we got. I know we're gp. We got like four minutes. We gotta get out of here. Tyres Halliburton got to aim seven years ago, didn't weigh 150 pounds. Had was genuinely worried that he was going to be redshirted his first season and was like please don't. Please just let me have a chance. Let me try. Let me try. First game, Lindell Wigginton gets hurt. Minutes in foot. Foot injury. Halliburton winds up playing way more in that first game than ever to thought. Steve Prom decides to start him in the second game against Missouri. He plays all 40 minutes. He never. He starts from there on after until he suffers a foot injury. He gets taken 12th by the Kings in the 2020 Covid draft. It's been a two time all NBA player averaging 17 1/2 points, 8.8 assists. He's now a. Tyrese Halliburton has a legitimate case as one of the 10 best. I don't care that he went in the lottery. GP he has a case as one of the 10 best players in the NBA and has brought the Pacers to the finals for the second time in. In their history. I'm sorry. That is one of the five most surprising developments of any player on any roster for either of these teams in the finals. I have Hallie four, but go ahead. Who do you have on your list?

Gary Parrish (53:21)

My number five is Aaron Wiggins with the Thunder. 55th pick 2021 NBA Draft. He finished the regular season as the fourth leading scorer on the best team in the world. 55th pick of the draft.

Matt Norlander (53:36)

It's fair, it's valid. I considered it. Yes.

Gary Parrish (53:38)

To the fourth leading score on the team.

Matt Norlander (53:42)

I thought you were gonna say niecemith.

Gary Parrish (53:43)

But yeah, I mean I actually I had nice and pretty high in my drafts. I went back and looked a few weeks ago like I. Yeah, I'm not surprised he's become a. A relevant NBA player. McConnell just to circle back is. Is quite literally the reason when I get asked so do you think so and so could maybe play in the NBA someday? Almost without exception, I say yeah. Who knows, you know, maybe, yeah, I'll say things like I. I'd be surprised but maybe I never say no or your favorite phrase. No chance. I never say no chance.

Matt Norlander (54:18)

I think it was zero chance. Let's be, let's. Let's accurately aggregate and report zero chance. Continue.

Gary Parrish (54:23)

I never say zero chance or no chance. And T.J. mcConnell is. Is the reason. But Wiggins again played three years at Maryland, average 11 points and shot 36% from three in his career. He is in year four with Oklahoma City this season. Averaged 12 points and shot 38.3% from three on 4.5 attempts per game. He's. He's a top four scorer on the best team in the world. After being picked 55th. That's pretty surprising.

Matt Norlander (54:50)

It's all right. We got to get out of here. That's not like tyrus Halliburton averaged 10 points, four and a half rebounds, four and a half cysts on an Iowa State team that didn't make the tournament. Like that's not wicked. Is not more shocking than Tyres Albert. And being a top 10 NBA player, you literally on the list.

Gary Parrish (55:08)

You literally set this up by saying where. How surprised are we where these people are relative to where we thought they were a week out of the draft. So I don't care A week out of the draft. You know what? We knew Tyrese Halliburton was going to be a lottery pick. I don't care how much he weighed or what he did or did not do at Iowa State. A week, a week away from that draft. We knew he's going to be a lottery pick and he has gone from a lottery pick to a great player. There's a million of those.

Matt Norlander (55:37)

I'm glad we did this. This is also as we wrap. GP's gotta get the hell out of here. It keep in mind that in these finals you have a litany of players like the projected starting rosters. I think Chet. I don't think Chad and Halliburton and Shea are the only. Right. Are they the only ones that were lottery picks? There might be one other one. There's so many guys that were not top 10, top 15 picks on these teams. Really, really cool lesson to be learned there. And, and how much value can be found elsewhere. And all by. By the way, as we head toward, you know, the draft in three weeks here, all the more of how much this can just. And sometimes it just. It's a dart throwing exercise. So yeah, really really cool stuff and eager for the finals tonight.

Gary Parrish (56:18)

It's two really well built basketball teams. I know that it's small markets and television ratings might not be what they otherwise would be if you had the Knicks and the Lakers and whatever outside of Oklahoma City just running away from them the way they are clearly capable of. Like if it's it should be fun. I I'm looking forward to it. Game 1 on Thursday night and you want a prediction. Thunder and five.

Matt Norlander (56:44)

Now that's the you got I'm. We have to go. You have a show. Thunder and five is the one prediction I will not allow because everyone's saying thunder and five. I'm going to say I said thunder and six. Thunder and five is is is the cop out. You can't say thunder and five. Any other result?

Gary Parrish (56:59)

I I say thunder first.

Matt Norlander (57:01)

Say it with your chest. Thunder and four.

Gary Parrish (57:03)

Thunder and four. Thunder and three. Give me the the Thunder. We're gonna win. The Thunder are going to win the first three so badly that the Pacers will forfeit Game four and then the Larry o' Brien trophy goes to downtown okc. Shout to David Doughty, Chef Chester, South Carolina. Terry Teagle. He's a legend. Hunt Larnell thank you guys once again for watching listening to the Ion College Basketball Podcast. You're not subscribed. Please go subscribe anyway. You subscribe to podcasts, Apple, Spotify, more of us than there are of them. That should be reflected in the comments. To do that, we'll talk to you again real soon. Till then, take care. Paramount Podcasts this summer, Pluto TV is exploding with thousands of free movies. Summer of cinema is here.

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