← Eye On College Basketball
Eye On College Basketball
Who's the BEST X's & O's Coach in CBB? Mark Pope and Pat Kelsey have a terse exchange
00:56:10
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign parish. Welcome back, CBS Sports. I own college basketball podcast where we sometimes discuss camel fighting, dota birds and leaky black. Matt Norlander is here with me. If you're watching on YouTube, you know what to do. The like button shouts to Brandon Davies. And if you haven't yet subscribed to the CBS Sports college basketball channel, it would be awesome if did that while you're here. Let's get into it. Norlander, good to see you after you spent the past three days at Bethpage Black covering the Ryder Cup. First question for you.
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B
Yeah.
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A
October approaches.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Whose seat is hotter, Hubert Davis or Keegan Bradley?
- [00:51]
B
Well, I think it might be technically Keegan Bradley because I, I think there's just a general understanding while he could, he could return as Ryder cup captain.
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A
Never again.
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B
Never again. Not gonna happen. That's not gonna happen.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Let's do New Orleanders Golf corner to kick this off real quick because actually I've got a story that I do think you're really gonna like, but just general takeaways on the Ryder Cup. It was in Long Island, I live in Connecticut. Was able to take the ferry over, cover it three days in a row. Had a great time. It's such a, it's golf events, as you well know, because you are there annually in Memphis for, for the same.
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A
So much better on television.
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B
Yes. Okay. So on that note, yes. Actually had that, that got brought up in one of my text chains over the weekend there. If there is a big hole with big stars and you can be there, it's awesome. But it's, it's vast expanses. GPIO is logging easily, easily north of 15, 16,000 steps every day, but loving it all the same. But yes, there's a very, there's, there's a scientific method to covering it. It's, it's.
- [01:56]
A
I tell, I tell people all the time if you want to enjoy the golf tournament. So we're talking about FedEx St. Jude championship, right? I said enjoy the golf tournament. Go to the golf tournament. You'll have a blast. If you want to watch the golf tournament, stay home and turn on your television because when you're on the golf course, you don't really know what's going on. You don't have proper context. You cannot, like, you go to a baseball game, you watch everything that's right in front of you. You go to a basketball game, you write, watch everything that's right in front of you. You go to a golf tournament. You're, you're, you just, you don't Know, you don't know what's going on. Even with the phone in your hand. You don't have a proper understanding of exactly how it's unfolding the way you do if you're sitting in front of a television.
- [02:33]
B
Even with the phone in hand, as I encountered plenty. There's so many people, like, cell reception, like, out on the sixth fairway that wasn't getting any. Nothing was going through text images or anything like that. But I tracked a few different groups every. Every day, and it was. It was. It was a ton of fun. The writer Ryder cup is obviously, it's. You know, it's a special event. It won't be back in the Northeast for who knows how long. Like, it's in Bethesda, Maryland, I think, in 10 or 12 years. But that's not. That's not the Northeast. It's in Minnesota in four years. And obviously it goes over to Europe every. Every two years. But I did love it, and it was awesome to be able to cover it. But there was one interaction I had that. That I'll remember forever. You know, it's so funny. Like, you go to these golf events and, you know, media gets this. The lanyards. You can be inside the ropes and all that. So, you know, at one point, you know, I look over, and it's literally, Colin Jost is there on Sunday. I go out to the first. I was like, okay, I'm gonna track Scotty and Rory. I'm gonna follow them for, like, nine or 10 holes and go back to the media tent. So I do that, and I'm leaning against the tree, and I don't even realize this. But then right next to me, literally, is Nate Bargetzi. So we talked a little bit. That. That was cool. He. I go, someone. Someone was like, nate, I was at your show last night. And I go, where'd you play last night? He goes, madison Square Garden. I think I've heard of it. So we had a good chat. That's not the. That's not the interaction, though. But it's. That was interesting. And by the way, that Sunday pairing, Paris, I don't know how much you watched on tv. I'm not exaggerating. Between player guests, media people that just had hookups and were able to be inside the ropes with a different colored lanyard. More than a hundred people inside the ropes track in this group. I had never seen anything. It was. It was insane. I think Bargetzi peeled out after, like, six, because it got to be too much. But how about this? And Then we'll get to the hoops, I swear. But this I know GP will appreciate. So on Saturday, I, whenever I decide, I'm just like, okay, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna head out and I'm gonna go. I didn't have my inside the ropes lanyard at that point. I was going to go to the. There's a media viewing area by the 16th green and by the 15th, TF page black. And that's, that's definitely, it's, it's a walk. It's not, it's not a mile, but it's definitely like more than a half mile. So I'm walking out and as I'm walking out, you know, it's just random media people walking here or there, and I hear, oh, my God. I was like, was that him? And then I noticed I'm maybe three paces behind Ken Griffey Jr. Who, who is photographer. Right. And I didn't know he was working the event, but I noticed it. Why? Because he's got a USA hat, white on backward, lock down, all that. Right. And. And so I, it was unlike anything I've ever experienced in my life because I'm. I'm essentially then walking stride for stride with him and I'm seeing the faces of largely 30 to 55 year old men.
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A
Yes.
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B
Walking his opposite direction. Right. Okay. And I was, I was, I was tempted to take out my phone and video it because Parrish, it was every fourth or fifth guy. I actually messaged myself on some of this stuff because it was such a cool experience that I almost, I almost wrote about it because it was. And we got to talking. I'll get to that in just a second. But some of the things that people were saying was. The first one I've got is an earmuffs for those listening. Ken Griffey Jr. No shit. That was Ken Griffey Jr. And then there's another. Hey, that's Ken Griffey Jr. Hey, Ken. Love you, Ken. You're the man, Ken. Dude, I watched you growing up and the people that didn't say hi to him, they'd see him. I'd see their eyes. They double take. And then they'd pass us and they'd still be with an earshot and go, dude, I think that was Ken Griffey Jr. And it's Merchant. It's this for three or four minutes, okay? And we're talking. At a certain point I was like, listen, man, I love the fact that you're doing photography. I'm a, I'm a sports writer with cbs. I'm just, you know, moonlighting here, doing some golf coverage. I usually do basketball. He explained to me that basketball is the only one sport that he hasn't shot because he goes, my knees, man, bone on bone, I can't shoot. He's like, I can't, I can't shoot that. I've shot every other sport, but I can't do basketball. We'll never do basketball. Tells me that his daughter, when she was five, so this is like 23 years ago, he goes, you want to know how I got into this? My daughter turns to me at a game, she goes, dad, why don't you ever just shut up? And he's like, it hit me right here. He points to his heart and so he's like, I just decided to take up photography because I wanted to see, I wanted to see my daughter grow up. His daughter, by the way, went on to play at Arizona. He was one of the nicest athletes I've ever talked to in my life. This guy talked to me and as if we had known each other for 20 years. And it was probably about a seven or eight minute conversation from the media tent down to essentially I wound up walking with him just almost near to 14. And I talked to him. If he gets used to like what he was experiencing, hearing all these people in earshot, that's Ken Griffey Jr. No, we can. I love you, Ken. He stopped and took a few photos, took a few selfies and it was, it was just an amazing, unexpected experience to have a conversation with One of the three or four most famous athletes of the 1990s, one of the most, you know, just world creating baseball players ever. And he was just, he was incredible. Like I know you can identify with this, of course. Well, in terms of the people, like I've been fortunate enough to meet plenty of people who are really, really, really famous and different people wear it in different ways. Charles Barkley famously is about as good as you can ask for, for anyone who is ridiculously famous, just being that in the public and to experience that with Ken. And then coincidentally enough on Sunday, we wound up talking again even more. I asked if he was going to shoot the Mariners there in the playoffs. And all this he told me about all why he does the photography, all these shots he's got at his house. He was shooting for the Ryder Cups digital team that was there. He was getting up at three in the morning, taking the media shuttle, like doing the work. It was an amazing experience. I may well just like Sit down and punch out the words at some point because it was, it was, it was just completely unexpected. And to see this guy just kind of do the work, like, he's just, he's, he's got his camera, he's taking the shots, he's, he's got the green photo vest on. And he was, he was ready with the story. Inquisitive about what I was doing. It was, it was honestly like covering the Ryder Cup. Getting to see all that was great. But having two run ins on two days with Ken Griffey Jr. Was the highlight of the trip. No doubt about it.
- [09:16]
A
Awesome story, incredible experience. I don't want to put extra work on you, but people like me would like reading that because you can't overstate the young people. How big of a deal he was to people my age. First off, baseball was bigger then I think it just was. And so, like, think of how big Aaron Judge is now. Or Juan Soto or Shohei or Cal Raleigh or Cal schwarber. King Griffey Jr. Was on another level altogether. 89 upper deck rookie card. I still remember walking to the 711 down the street from my pawpaw and grandmama's house and getting the pack. Papa, can I just have, can I go buy one pack? And I opened it and there it was. And I thought that was gonna put me through college, you know, that's the way it felt. And the hat backwards. You know, I'll still sometimes get weird tweets from, like, somebody who's very offended that I'm on camera with a hat backwards or that I'm 48 years old with a hat backwards. Like, first of all, I can't imagine, like, how weird your life has to be that you care whether or not I'm wearing a hat backwards or not. We've never met. It's a weird thing to care about. All right. But it still happens. And I've thought about this before. Like, is it weird that I'm 48 years old and have a hat on backwards? And sort of where I've landed on this is that I don't want to put you in my generation. But our generation, we're not.
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B
But continue.
- [10:43]
A
We're the first generation. Where we grew up, our heroes wore their hats backwards. Yeah, we, the, we're the first generation to look at our heroes and go, that guy's the coolest. In part because he has his hat on backwards. Of course, the swing, like, arguably the most beautiful left handed swing of all time. So the swing is part of his aura. The hat is another part of it. And If King Griffey Jr. Is still walking around with his hat on backwards, I don't know why I gotta change. I'm only doing it because of him. And if he ain't giving it up yet, I don't think I should either. But I really do think that's the explanation. Men my age and our age are going to end up wearing hats backwards for our entire lives in ways that have never been done. And I think the guy you spent eight minutes with earlier this weekend is, is the main reason why. Yeah, I love that he has found a real passion. He has in retirement.
- [11:38]
B
I think that's more than 40,000 photos he said at his house. I don't know if that means on his computer, but he's got all this stuff. He's been approached by all these people with deals to like capitalize more off of that. He's just doing, he's just doing the work, man. It's really.
- [11:52]
A
He just, just. He mostly does it anonymously. I mean you can't be anonymous when you're King Griffey Jr. But he's not out there trying to be King Griffey Jr. He's out there trying to be the best photographer he can be, blending in as best he can. Because I've seen him at other events or seen him photographed at other events or talking about other events and I just love that he's found that. First off, I think it's wildly important to have all the money in the world, be in your 40s and not really know what you're doing on a day to day basis. Like I'd like to try it for a few weeks but after a while I think you need purpose, you need things to do and he's found that. It's awesome. And just to your point about all the men being just blown away there, there is nothing that makes you feel like a kid again more than just bumping into somebody who was a larger than life figure from your childhood. This has happened to me a few times. Like I, my career has put me in a bunch of rooms with a bunch of famous people and I swear to God, hand to heart, I usually don't even blink. But you know the people who made me blink, who made me go, oh wow, Dwight Gooden. I saw Dwight Gooden at a Nationals game. He was one section over for me and my wife. I like jumped up and ran over. Like I, you could say Sydney Sweeney is one section over to you and I would try to get a look But I wouldn't be running over and freaking out.
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B
Right.
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A
I'm just telling you the truth. I use her to make a very specific point. I, I don't, I don't think a.
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B
Lot of people are doing that these days, by the way. Continue.
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A
I don't, Yeah, I don't care. I don't, I don't get starstruck. But like I saw Doc Gooden and I flipped out in a way that is unrecognizable to myself. Mike Tyson. The first time I was in a room with Mike Tyson it was like, that's Iron Mike Tyson. That's Mike Tyson's punch out. And Ken Griffey Jr. Is the type of person that could do that to people my, my, my age. He's, he's a, he's a big time star and that's a wonderful experience. I'm glad you got to do that.
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B
Yeah. Now we can get moving. But just one last thing on that point, like just to walk stride for stride with him and soak in a reality existence that he lives. Maybe not every day because maybe where he lives it's not. But like when he's out in public, like because people were not expecting to see Ken Griffey Jr. At a golf tournament. Okay. So to just continually perish. It's every four seconds as we're walking and just, I'm looking at the faces and the, and the double takes and it was, it was really, really cool to just to view the world through the prism of an extremely famous. And Frankly, Ken Griffey Jr. Has got to be top 10 all time highest approval rating of any American athlete ever. Just. Yeah. And experience that one everybody.
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A
And I think the golf tournament setting probably plays into this a little bit. Like if you're a 50 year old man at a golf tournament, by definition you probably Love King Griffey Jr. Once Upon a time, you know, correct man.
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B
It was. No, it was, it was wild. And he even said they, he's like once I do this and he puts the phone, he put the camera up to his eyes. Once I do this, not so much but when I bring it down, yeah, it happens. So it was, it was really, really cool. I knew you'd enjoy that as a big time, big time baseball.
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A
One last thing on Ryder cup and then we'll move on. Because I do think this is interesting and you can sort of tie it to other sports, specifically basketball. The biggest criticism of Keegan Bradley seems to be that he ran Kalamor Kawa and Harris English out there twice and.
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B
There'S some golf biggest one, there were some other ones but that's oh, the.
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A
Course set up is another one and.
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B
Set up and it's actually like really foggy over how much say he really had versus other people. But I think I know where you're getting to can keep it going. The specific English Morakawa thing was it was very blatantly anti analytics. Right. And it wound up costing him. So continue.
- [15:37]
A
Here's my point. I don't know that every college basketball staff apparatus operates this way. But I know some do. And I know every NBA staff does. They have line, they have data on everything. Every possible lineup combination you throw out there, they have data on it. And I'm just telling you there will be meetings where somebody will point out this five player combination does not work. We get killed on the offensive glass or whatever but we cannot do. It's like a non starter. Don't ever try to put those five players on the court together because the data says you cannot do that. And it is just wild to me that there were analytics connected to this that placed Morikawa and English as the literally the worst combination the United states could throw.
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B
144 different ones. It was ranked 144.
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A
It was the last one, the worst combination. And he ran it out there twice. And I couldn't help but think as I'm learning this, that this wouldn't like in the NBA. Somebody, somebody. This is not an overstatement, is it? If this were an NBA team instead of a Ryder cup team, somebody would have stepped in and said captain, you can't do that. Coach, you can't do that. I've got the data on it. I mean it's up to you but I've got the data on it. And just let me tell you, if this goes poorly, you are going to get murdered because of the paper that I'm holding right here, I'm trying to show it to you. This just wouldn't happen, I don't think in another sport. And I don't know how it happened here.
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B
I, I don't know how it happened. He got asked about it on Saturday after he rolled him out. Again, kind of an insufficient answer, but yeah, because the golf world is look at us, I promise. But the golf world has gotten really far along in terms of metrics and analytics and looking a lot of that stuff and it was kind of wild. Also, just to compare this to hoops, I went to the losing press conference on Sunday and it was about but this is an individual sports and this is the one team event and I didn't know what to expect going in like all 12. And Bradley sat there and I was like, is this going to feel like a team that just lost in the Saturday of a Final Four? And it was really more like, you know, a tough conference loss in the middle of January. I was expecting maybe a little bit more rejection. I think some of that was offset by the fact that ironically enough, the United States in one on ones and individual matches on Sunday, like they really made it 15, 13 after it looked like it was going to be a runaway. But yeah, covering golf and a lot of stuff that's around that JP versus basketball, primarily our beat here. It's they're vastly different sports that is for sure in terms of just the coverage, dealing with the athletes and so coaches and Bradley's, you know, captain. It's not even the same thing. But yeah, was. It was a very, very interesting weekend. You want to move on?
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A
Yeah, I think, I think it's 18.
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B
Minutes in, but the Griffey story was worth it.
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A
I think both of those things are true. The Griffey story was worth it. But it is probably time to move on. We will get to question number four in our Candid Coaches series next. The question is as follows. Who's the best X's and O's coach in college basketball right now? I'll tell you what coaches told us. We'll do that next. But first, let's get a word from our partners.
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B
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- [21:12]
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When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com hey there, it's Gary Parrish. Welcome back to the CBS Sports we can just act like this is the beginning of the talk.
- [21:42]
B
This is the start.
- [21:42]
A
We just act like this is the beginning. Dodo birds, Leaky Black Matt Norlander, Brandon Davies. He does it. Blah blah blah. As you likely know, we have launched our annual Candid Coaches series over@cbssports.com where we asked roughly 100 college basketball coaches a series of questions. We grant anonymity in exchange for honesty. Then we publish the answers. Three questions. Last week we discussed each of them on the previous episode. Today, turn our attention to question number four. It's going to publish Tuesday, so consider this your scoop. Here's the question who is the best X's And O's coach in the sport right now. And I don't know if this is the closest voting we ever had, but it's, it's very close. Matt Painter 1. Purdue coach Matt Painter with 19% of the vote, followed by Dan Hurley at UConn with 18% of the vote and Greg McDermott at Creighton with 16 of the vote. Nobody else got more than seven. So it was pretty clear cut. Those were the three. And what was interesting, just to peel the curtain back a little bit, I think you got one more vote for Hurley than you got for Painter. And I think I got two more votes for Painter than I got for Hurley. And that is how Painter ends up on top. It was literally, when I added it all up, it was literally one vote.
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B
Dang. That is. That's close. I thought Hurley would win. Going in. Kelvin Sampson and Ben McCollum finish out the top five. McCollum getting a ton of love. You know, a lot of that's due to D2. We've talked about him recently on the show, but even I was surprised to see that he was able to get 5% of the return. Speaks to what he's been able to do. We got a number of coaches with with lower votes. We'll get to that before we get to the end of the segment. But Painter being atop this list, Purdue's getting a lot of produce, getting a lot of good pub in this game. And there's still another question. We won't reveal what it is right now. There's still another question to come that produce slash. Painter also got some some love for there. I thought Hurley would win. Just a couple quick quotes on both of these guys that I, that I got on on Painter. Quote, pate runs great stuff by design of his lineup. He'll always have an anchor for his offense, a scoring center, lots of three point shooting. And when he has a dynamic playmaker, his sets are almost impossible to stop. Then he has a ton of counters. You think you know what's coming. Then he flops it. Then he flips the flop. I love when I'm talking to coaches, you know he flips the flop. Of course you got to turn them over because you can't get enough misses. Another short quote. Purdue plays to their player strengths better than most. I love when we do these kiddo coaches questions and sometimes I get these long quotes and they're really good. And then I love when I get a single quote of like 10 words and it just right to the point. This is why I think that I think he's the best. I had a couple of coaches that came down to Painter or Hurley. I think I remember two or three and I want to say like maybe two went Hurley's way. One went Painter's way. Real quick on Hurley. Then take it away. GP1 quote he does a great job with a scouting what he's going to go against, how he plays off his offensive menu, his pace, style of play and if he has a really good point guard, they're always going to be good. The way he recruits toward his system with shooting is dangerous. And then another one here quote I just think Hurley or his whole staff, which I'm sure it's all of them, but they call Seth on the fly in loud arenas and they execute them extremely well. That's so hard. To me it's not coming out of a timeout or a dead ball. It's in the middle of game flow. I think it shows how much work they do on all the different reads and sets because guys seem very flawless in getting from one action to the next. And it's complicated stuff, not just like drag ball screens. End quotes so some real insight. This obviously, admittedly by the face of the question is it is a bit nitty gritty, but it was, it was interesting to see the returns on this. And of course Hurley and Painter met in the national championship game back in 2024.
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A
This is one of my favorite questions that we do that we did this year, if only because this is one where I genuinely want to hear what the coaches have to say. I guess by definition I want to hear what they have to say about all of it. But I don't necessarily think the coaches would have a better grasp for like who's going to be the best team in America than say, you know, any random college basketball columnist or analyst who, whose job it is to to quite literally follow the sport on a national level on a day to day basis. That is not the job of a college basketball coach. I can't tell you how many times you talk to a college basketball coach in the middle of the season and they're like, so how's Tennessee doing? Like they just don't know. They coach in the Big Ten and they don't really. It's just off their radar. They're not, they're just focused on what they're doing.
- [26:24]
B
They haven't played and they don't play them their league or have. They haven't faced them. And this is not all coaches. Some coaches live the sport and they know it. But good coaches, if it's, if that team is not on their schedule for this season, they will have a vague awareness at best of how a team is doing there.
- [26:36]
A
There are some coaches who are listening to this podcast three times a week, watching Inside College Basketball at night, reading everything Norlander writes, checking out the top 25 and one every day. And there are other coaches who like, they know that stuff exists, I guess, but they coach, they're coaching their basketball team and worrying about that and the other stuff just doesn't even penetrate their world at all. And so like when we ask coaches who's going to be the best team in the country, I'm interested in what they have to say, but I don't know that they have a better grasp of that than say you do on this. They know this stuff. These men know each other, they're in clinics together, they've scouted each other, they, they've worked in the same league either previously or now or whatever. This is one where I really want to hear what they have to say. And I, like you, thought Hurley would win A because he just might be the right answer. He's certainly one of the obvious answers, but also I've, I've heard him talk about X's and O's publicly more than most coaches. Like, have you ever seen a video of Ben McCollum breaking things down?
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B
Not yet, but give him a couple of years maybe. But yes, exactly to your point, have not.
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A
Yeah, I'm sure they exist. I just, they don't go viral. But after winning back to back championships and being pursued by the Lakers, Dan went on this. I don't even know if it was a. It was just like he was very, he was very available.
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B
Yeah.
- [27:59]
A
On podcast and just talking basketball and he's very good at it and clearly sharp and I thought that might help him win the vote to some degree. And again he was right there. But if you, if you would have asked me before we got started where I would have thought it would be, Hurley, Painter, in some order, I wasn't surprised those were the top two. But after that, for people who are asking, Greg McDermott got 16 of the vote. Kelvin Sampson then got 7%. Ben McCollum, 5%, Randy Bennett, Tom Izzo, Dusty May, Bill self all got 4%. Rick Patino, Nate Oats, Rick Barnes, Chris Collins, Grant McCaslin, Mark Schmidt all got 2%. And if you add all that up, it gets you to 93. We had a list of coaches who made up for the other 7%.
- [28:50]
B
Let's talk a lot about this real quick. Surprising that I think I got the only vote for Todd golden just won a national title. Obviously has been a coach that has had a reputation of doing a lot of not just modern analytics stuff, but there are tears to this man and he for many number of years has been at the top of that. Only got one I did get a get a quote this quote. This coach said from an incredible list. I ranked Todd number one here not solely due to winning the national championship, but I go back to his time at San Francisco when I saw them beat a very good Virginia team in Uncasville that was actually the Bubble Tournament. By the way, his team spacing and ability to make you to guard multiple actions is quite impressive. I think Mark Few only got one vote which was somewhat surprising to me. This coach said going seven to eight straight years of dominant offensive teams amongst the most efficient teams in the country, typically using more traditional lineups for two bigs. He's really, really good defensive coach. So I want to just talk about the the surprises I had at the coaches that didn't get more votes. So few only getting one. Golden only getting one oats got what just only two or three Surprised he was that low. Self not be I think if we asked this question five years ago, Self is in the top five for whatever reason he didn't finish there. Now one coach insisted to me because at this point I think I was like, I think I got a vote for Self and I was more than like 45 responses in at that point. And I think I told the coach, I was like, I think I was like, I think you might be the second or third vote for Self. And he's like, are you kidding me, man? He's like, I know they haven't been good the past two years, but his in Game Adjustments is the best. It's the best in college basketball. Like maybe the essence of what the coach was telling was there might be others that okay, if you want to say there's one or two or three other guys that maybe you know on the margins are better X and O, fine. But in Game Adjustments it's Bill Self. It's not debatable. He's an elite strategist when it comes to tweaking in game. So I was surprised by that. Wasn't surprised Randy Bennett got some votes. We just had a question in the chat here about Patino. I think you got all the Patino votes. I don't think I had a Patino one, which is also kind of surprising. I mean, Patino can be. You can make the case. And GP has to a certain extent on the show that Patino is the greatest coaching talent in college basketball. Obviously there's other guys that line up right alongside of him, but you can at least make the case for him. So I was surprised that he did not get more. Izzo got some, which wasn't surprising. Josh Shirts I got two for. So he was probably the one. The two votes that I got for him. The guys who voted for him were pretty. Pretty emphatic on why they thought, you know, okay, doesn't have to be high major, any level. You told me I could take an average college basketball team. And I gave one coach one game. He's got an X and O. I'd go Shirts. Barnes got a few. Yeah, there was a variety of different votes here, but I was surprised that some of the guys just didn't get more than they did. What about you? What's.
- [31:42]
A
Yeah, I was. I was surprised I didn't get more Rick Patino. I was surprised Bill finished as low as he did. But I do think that's a direct byproduct of they just haven't been good the past. Yeah, they've been good. It's always relative. They haven't been KU good. They haven't been as. They haven't been good to their standard over the past couple years. That's probably the explanation. I didn't really notice this until I just saw it in the chat, but I think we got zero votes for Mark Pope, which would be surprising because he is. He has thought way.
- [32:12]
B
Yep, we got zero for Pope. Still, you know, mildly surprising. Still, you know, relatively young in his coaching career. So if he does this again with Kentucky and we're not going to ask the question again next year, but if we did, he'd probably get some votes. But yeah, I'd say that was. And is he the most surprising coach that didn't get a vote? I'm just asking it out loud as I'm scrolling through here. I would say that would be for me. Yes. And then I would say, you can make the case. Let me just do this. I would say Tommy Lloyd's X. No ability.
- [32:38]
A
Yes. That's another one.
- [32:40]
B
D.J. otzelberger didn't get a vote. I think you can make a case for him. I would say those rank near the top coaches. Listening to this, probably, you know, they might pop out another. Another coach or two on this.
- [32:55]
A
I thought NATO's would finish higher.
- [32:57]
B
So did I. Yeah.
- [32:59]
A
Because he has a reputation like, like people really respect his approach in the analytics with which he uses to guide his program. I just, I, even when you talk to people, they're, they're fans of him. At least the NBA people I talked to. So I was surprised he didn't get more of the vote. But the tip top of it looked about the way I thought it would look.
- [33:24]
B
Yeah, it was very informative. If you're watching live or listening to this on Monday, this is your, your heads up. GP will have plenty more on, on this, some more quotes to read and just his own personal insights and takeaways from this. But there were just so you know, we didn't ask only for high majors. I mean Dan Earl got a vote. Jared Calhoun got a vote.
- [33:41]
A
I got a Casey Alexander vote.
- [33:43]
B
There you go. Like exactly. So you know that, that, that Rickburn influence, I love to hear it. Chris Collins got a vote like so or Collins I think got multiple votes. Yeah, I think Lenny Acuff at Lipscomb got a vote. There was just. Yeah, it was, it was good, good representation across the board, which is what I wanted. Sometimes with some of these questions they really need to be slanted toward the big conferences given the certain topic. This one is not it. It's remove all affiliations. Just who's got the best exo mind when it comes to it. And yeah, Painter narrowly out Edges Hurley and McDermott and a couple guys that went to bat for McDermott they like, they were really. I was getting, I think I sent you one of them where they were talking about their, the way that he can get to his Spain action and all this stuff. I was like, I ain't saying vicinity but I'm always good to talk a little, a little whiteboard stuff. So anyway that's, that's that. And by the way, there's more candid coaches stuff to come. Different stories that'll publish to this week.
- [34:35]
A
Later@Cbsports.Com yeah, question 4 is the Xnose question that will publish on Tuesday. We'll have another one published on Wednesday, another one publishing on Thursday. Elsewhere in the sport we got a five star commitment in the class of 2026. Taylor Kenny is committed to Kansas. Pick the Jayhawks over offers from Louisville, Kentucky, Arkansas, Indiana, Oregon. He's a top 15 prospect in the class of 2026, number one ranked point guard and just the third five star prospect in the class to publicly pledge to university. I guess this isn't a surprise. By the time it happened we knew this was headed this direction. But still five star freshman headed to Kansas, and it had an interesting recruiting story tied to it. That is funny on some level.
- [35:24]
B
I think this is just objectively funny. Real quick on Kenny. I saw him at Adidas this year. Didn't know hardly anything about him before I saw him. He didn't even really play that well. And I walked away being like, that dude's awesome. He's going to be a tremendous college point guard. And if he's the kind of guy who's going to stay multiple years, like, he could potentially be an all American kind of talent as a point guard. I liked a lot of what I saw of him, and I didn't even see him at his very, very best. So my scouting sense, take it for what it's not worth, but I did come away. He was one of my favorite players I saw in the summer. This year, he's going to Kansas. Now, this happened, obviously, by the way, on CBS Sports HQ over the weekend. So congrats to our 247 team for getting that done in HQ and Travis Branham, Eric Bossing Co for and Finkelstein for making all that happen. Okay. The reason why we're talking about it, though, is this is why this is funny. So if we talked about this on the pod, I. I don't remember it, but maybe we did. And I'm just. I'm just not remembering. But the live period started earlier this month in September. Okay. And when that happens, you know, it starts when the calendar flips. So it starts at midnight. And so Taylor Kenny was being recruited by a number of really, really good programs, two of them happening to be Kentucky and Louisville. And so at midnight, as the story goes, it was supposed to be Mark Pope that would go into Taylor Kenny's house when it was allowed on the books at midnight. And that was going to last. However, it was going to last five, ten minutes. Who knows how these things are booked out specifically? And then it would be Pat Kelsey and Louisville. Will Kelsey and Louisville get to the house before Pope? Pope is apparently running late. Midnight comes, and at whatever moment, I can't report the exact moment. I don't know if it was 12:02, 1201, 1209. I don't know. Kelsey decides to make a move because Pope's not there. Okay, well, I'll spare. Once everything's on the books, you're not there. Pope does get there, and I don't know if he beats him to the front door. Who knows? They have a. They have a little bit of. Of an exchange that's been reported. I Actually asked Pope about this and, you know, he. He doesn't run from this stuff. Like, you know, he's like, pat and I, Pat and I are good. He's like, you want to. He's like, you want to report that we went to. That we came to blows? I was like, will you say this on the record? Yes, I would like. I would like to report that you and Pat Kelsey got into a fist fight outside the home of a five star prospect. So if you'll let me, I will report it. Obviously, that didn't happen, but. But, you know, I think they. It was. It was a miscommunication. Hope was running late for whatever reason, and then after a little bit of a back and forth, they figured it out. They went their separate ways and, you know, whatever. We. This is good. We should want this in college basketball. We should walk it. I can only take Pope and Kelsey liking each other so much. Okay, I'm. It doesn't have to be Cal Patino, but I'm going to need a little bit of this gp. So anyway, they go through all this, it becomes a thing. The fan bases are, you know, they're whipped up into a. Into a froth over this recruiting frenzy. And then what happens? Fast forward two weeks later, Bill Self gets him. Anyway, it didn't even matter. Comes in over the top. I love it. Even more so given the content we've talked about on this show with Self not even winding up in the top five of top X and O coaches. Self's not done, folks. He. I'm, I, I think I might be higher on Kansas coming into this season. And Kenny, to be clear, he's not playing the season, playing next. I just think this was vintage badass Bill Self over the top, getting it done. I don't know how much Adidas didn't, did or did not factor in, but it should be said Kansas is an Adidas school. Louisville is as well. Kentucky is not. Kenny played on the Adidas circuit and however they got it done, they got it done. And I just think it's. I think it's hilarious that the Kentucky and Louisville fan bases were fighting about this for weeks only to discover that on Sunday this dude pledged to Bill Self all the while and it was all for nothing.
- [39:11]
A
Okay, lots of thoughts here. First off, I like that Mark and Pat are cool. Like, I, I know, but I don't.
- [39:19]
B
Need them being chummy. I don't know. Like, I just.
- [39:22]
A
I like, I, I know I'm in the minority here. I do not need my rival coaches to hate each other.
- [39:29]
B
I'm not even saying that. It's a little.
- [39:30]
A
A little friction.
- [39:31]
B
Not the worst thing. That's all.
- [39:33]
A
Like, you have Urban Meyer and at Ohio State and whoever's coaching Michigan at the time, and they, like, won't speak to each other, won't look at each other, won't say each other's names. And I did that always was. I wasn't horrible at the time. I didn't want to mix it up, but, like, I just. That always seems silly to me. And so I know it's unusual to have the other extreme, but I just kind of like it when. When, you know, we. It's like, I work here, you work there. I want to beat you, you want to beat me. But we don't have to hate each other and hate each other's families. I kind of like that more mature repo approach. I know it's not common, but I. I prefer it. I will say it is stuff like this, that when you talk to coaches, they will tell you. It just makes it hard, you know? Like, for instance, in my home state, I know Chris Beard and Chris Jans, the head coach at ole Mississippi State, are like, friends, men who have been spending time talking on the phone and texting for, you know, years and years and years and years. And I don't know how much they do that now that one of them is the coach at Mississippi State and the other one's the coach at Ole Miss. I think they're still friends and cool, but. But it. It does become harder when you are, you know, banging heads in this way. And so I'm not surprised that Pat and Mark could have their relationship strained, even if it was just for a matter of minutes in a. In a recruiting visit. Why are we doing this at midnight? It's stupid. It's so stupid. I mean, like, I think it's.
- [41:11]
B
I think it's hilarious.
- [41:12]
A
It's dumb. Like, nobody. Nobody wants to be talking to a basketball coach at midnight. Let me tell you. I don't know if this has always been true, but here's. Here's where I'm at as. As far as midnight. All right? With every single night of my life at midnight, I either want to be asleep over here.
- [41:34]
B
I know it's. Yeah.
- [41:36]
A
Or having a blast. Okay, okay. Like, I'm not even trying to be. I mean, I want to be having a good time, or I want to be asleep. That's it. No, in between.
- [41:48]
B
You don't want to be talking business at 1201am no, no.
- [41:52]
A
You know how often you try to. Hey, Saturday night after Gonzaga finishes, you want to go live at 11:51? No, no, I don't want to go live at 11.
- [42:02]
B
I want. I. I'm. I'm here for you listeners and viewers. I just want to let you know.
- [42:06]
A
I'm sitting in a studio to 2 o' clock in the morning, you know, two, three nights a week. I don't want to do it when I'm home for three days a week for five straight months. So, no, I don't want to be talking to code. I want to talk to my wife and my kids are my friends at midnight. That's it. Or sleep. That's it. So the idea that we got college coaches knocking on doors at 12:15 is just stupid. Like, the NBA used to do this. And you know what they figured out? Why is Vince Carter taking a phone call at 1201, all right?
- [42:37]
B
And they. It's like 3 o' clock in the afternoon now.
- [42:39]
A
Yes, yes, now it's like official business starts. It used to be like July 1st, midnight, and now I want to say maybe it's June 30th, middle of the afternoon or what, but they just made it a more appropriate time so that people aren't calling people and showing up at their houses at midnight. You know how mad I'd be if. If Mark Pope and Pat Kelsey showed up at my house at midnight? I would be laying in bed, my ring camera, I'd be, what? Is Mark Pope standing in my driveway?
- [43:08]
B
That's what we need, by the way. Did they.
- [43:10]
A
The ring camera.
- [43:11]
B
Can we get Pablo Torre on this, by the way? Pablo, come on. You've got your frontal ballmer. Let's get on this. I need Taylor Kenny's home ring cam to see what actually happened.
- [43:22]
A
Like, we. I think you. I think he got the Bill Belichick ring camera.
- [43:25]
B
Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, he went to the damn Airbnb.
- [43:29]
A
Yes, he, like, cosplayed. And I've listened to all the bomber stuff like. Pablo, you got him. They cheated their asses off. Okay, you got him. Only the idiots don't believe this at this point. You got him. All right, can we turn our attention to Mark Pope and Pat Kelsey at Taylor Kenny's home? Get the ring camera footage. Pablo, what are you doing?
- [43:48]
B
Amazing. By the way, you can also agree with me this is objectively hilarious.
- [43:53]
A
Of course it is.
- [43:54]
B
Passionate fan bases coming off of just revitalizing seasons real momentum in recruiting some of the richest programs when it comes to NIL for the Forthcoming season, they're fighting over this guy, number one point guard in the class. And there's Bill self in the weeds.
- [44:11]
A
I, I hope I, I wish I, I'm gonna. I'm gonna choose to believe that Bill was also there that night because so couldn't you just see Bill walk up on it?
- [44:20]
B
There's Pat, and I can't see the smile.
- [44:25]
A
Arguing out in front of the home. And Bill just walks up. What you fellas all worked up about? What you fellas all worked up about on a Tuesday night, man. So Bill would just be calm and cool.
- [44:40]
B
Yeah.
- [44:41]
A
Oh, you, you. You boys need to calm down. Let's knock this thing out. We'll go get us a bite to eat.
- [44:46]
B
Yeah. Perfect. Exactly. Because Pope and Kelsey, this is. This is year two at a blue blood program. They'll still been doing this decades. He's been through plenty. Anyway, congrats to sell for getting them. Sounds like Kansas still has more coming. And also like, we'll see. I don't think Tyron Stokes the number one player in the class. I don't know when he's going to commit. Maybe he'll commit in a week from now, but I think the feeling is that might drag on a little bit. But I think folks are wondering if this commitment will have impacts one way or the other with wherever he decides to play. All those schools have been involved in the recruitment, as you'd expect, of the number one player in the country.
- [45:24]
A
All right, before we get out of here, you had on X this morning an update on the players era festival. So tell us what we need to know.
- [45:31]
B
Okay, just a small update here. So players eras going off this year in Vegas, 18 teams. And then the plan has been, and the plan remains to be a 32 team event starting in 2026. We'll see if they can get there, but they believe they're going to. So I've been told that contracts have been sent, basically agreed to. I think a few schools got to actually sign them. But Louisville, speaking of Kelsey, Miami, Missouri, Ohio State and Virginia have all either signed or plan to sign to join starting next year in November of 2026. Florida's also recently joined. So if all the schools that are playing it this year, which they plan to play it next year, that means 24 of the 32 schools targeted for this event in Thanksgiving week of 2026 are on board. They've got eight more to go. Sounds like there's a couple more schools that are getting pretty close. We'll see if if be in the next week or so. But yeah, I mean listen, you got Louisville involved, that's big. We'll see what Miami is in year two. Missouri, it's got a five star top five player that's going to be coming to be a freshman at the time of this event, Jason Crow Jr. He'll be involved Ohio State and Virginia. So yeah, just a small little news bit, but it does. I said this on, I think the mailbag episode. Personally, I don't love this is going to be a 32 team event because I don't like how it's going to essentially siphon off the some of the other MTE's. I think you could still get what you're looking for with 16 teams, you know, 24 teams at max. But they want to do 32. They want to have the biggest possible college basketball event in the history of the regular season in the sport and they are eight teams away from getting it done.
- [47:10]
A
Yeah, I'm with you. I don't, I'm not going to object to it or protest it or scream about it like whatever, it's a mid season tournament. But I kind of like the idea of the smaller brackets and you know, there's a real chance Maui's never going to be the same. There's a real chance battle for Atlantis is never going to be the same. And I know it hasn't been around as long as Maui, but those were two awesome events where there were always multiple like championship contenders in the field and it was a smaller field, eight teams I think in Atlantis, eight teams in Maui. And you get these moments of people holding trophies and obviously the fewer events you have because one is bigger than all the others, you just don't get as many people celebrating wins. You don't get as many people celebrating trophies holding them in the eye in the sky and not the biggest deal in the world. If you want me to fix college athletics, this is not where I'm starting. I got other places where I'm starting, but I, yeah, I don't. Not, not a big deal. But I like the, I like the smaller tournaments, the smaller fields and yeah.
- [48:13]
B
I just like the variety. Paris. Yeah, the variety. And, and so yeah, like Atlanta. I mentioned this on the mailbag show. Like there's real wonderment if Atlantis will cease to exist eventually and if it doesn't, what's the field going to look like? Maui's okay this year. It's actually got a little bit of a stronger field in 26. But what is its existence? What does Maui look like? In 2030. Is it a four team event? Is it. Everyone thinks that Maui is going to have to go from three to two games. Schools have typically had to pay to play in Maui. And for a long time it was worth it. It was, it was the preeminent event. And now the players era, which is, you know, effectively paying schools, and then those schools can pay their players nil stuff, it's, it's changed the paradigm. But I do also want to say this as well. There's still like, understandably so there's just a lot of skepticism over if this can be financially doable for the long term with players.
- [48:58]
A
Right.
- [48:59]
B
I mean, it's, it's a ton of teams. It's tens and tens and tens of millions of dollars. And so there's still more to be seen on that because last year it was successful. Everyone got paid out. Last year was eight teams. Now they want to do 32 and they want to do more on the women's side. It's a very huge undertaking and we should have more updates on the general status of this before we even get to the start of the regular season.
- [49:19]
A
Yeah, there's smarter people than I, you know, in charge of this. And if they believe it's financially feasible, then, you know, I'll take a wait and see approach. But I certainly do understand why, why some folks are skeptical. Just back to the Maui thing, then we'll get out of here. I understand, like, it's very expensive to go to Maui. Some coaches already think it takes something out of your team. Like you lose something traveling in that way. So you try to go from three games down to two. I think it just makes it harder to even. Because you're gonna have some coach say, I'd go out there to play three, but I'm not just going out there play two. And so that, that becomes another issue you've got to work around. I just hope that coaches don't lose sight of and everybody's free to run their program however they see fit. And honestly, if I were running a power conference program, I might understand that the most important thing is getting nil money and, and, and, and money to share with my players. And that's why we've got to do this instead of the other thing. But I hope coaches understand there's real value to like, taking your players places. Yeah, Maui, like, they'll remember that forever. They'll have that experience forever. I just hope we don't get away from you. I know everybody's chasing a dollar, but like this, the Maui experience is an experience. I would imagine every college basketball player who's ever been through that place has a, a memory of and, and, and, and pulls from it in storytelling time. And I just hope we don't lose that because that's. That has been a. An awesome thing Thanksgiving week for as long as I can remember.
- [51:00]
B
Here, here to all of that. And yeah, I think we'll have more opportunities to expand on this topic as we get close to the season at the very latest, once it rolls around here in mid to late November, I think. I think that's a Monday show.
- [51:14]
A
GP all right, let's call it one shout out.
- [51:17]
B
You look ready to. It's been Grizzlies media day. Got to go get the kids. I got to go to get kids soon. So I think, yeah, you know, take the rest of the day off.
- [51:24]
A
I think you're Ran into a. Ran into a bit of a controversy at Grizzlies media day.
- [51:28]
B
I was. What do we got?
- [51:29]
A
I was talking. I was talking to your old friend Cedric Coward.
- [51:32]
B
Oh, yeah, you know what? How's Cedric doing?
- [51:34]
A
He's great. I understand why you loved him. I loved him, too. He's just really wonderful. And it is funny. Like, you see him walk in, like, none of us have really ever seen him play basketball much. I know lottery pick who's barely played basketball, but you see him walk in the gym and it's just like, he just looks different. He just looks like a. Even Jalen Wells was like, I'm jealous of just the way he looks. His arms are long, his shoulders are wide. And then he just. He's. He's. He's great. Anyway, here's the controversy. So I'm, I'm like, hey, I've talked to other rookies before, and they say the weirdest thing is, like, for the first time, like, I'm 21 years old and my teammates have wives and children. And they're like, I'm like, hey, you want to do something after practice? And they're like, I got to go pick up my kids and car rider lines. Like, what do you think? Like, no, I'm going home to my wife. And he's like, yeah, that is weird. He's like, like, Vince Williams, you know, he just had a baby, so shouts to Vince, congratulations. And so, like two, 20 minutes later, Vince Williams sits down with us. And I said, hey, I heard we owe you a congratulations.
- [52:36]
B
Oh, no.
- [52:37]
A
And he was like. And I said, I mean, we're live on air. And I'm. And I'm like, are we not supposed to know? And he's like, no. And I said, I'm just live on air. I'm like, your teammate Cedric Coward brought it up. I didn't even ask you. Coward? Yes. I ain't going down the Coward.
- [52:56]
B
Hold on. Did Coward say it on the air with you?
- [52:58]
A
Yes.
- [52:59]
B
Okay, so then you got to acknowledge it.
- [53:00]
A
Okay, I had to acknowledge it, right?
- [53:02]
B
Oh, yeah. Okay.
- [53:03]
A
So I was like, if you go back and watch. You go back and watch the tape. Cedric brought this up 20 minutes ago. I. I didn't. He's like, all right, I'm gonna have to talk to the room. Oh, boy.
- [53:11]
B
We've got. We got Grizzly's disharmony already.
- [53:15]
A
It was always a matter of time. So I guess maybe just. First rule of the NBA is don't start talking about your teammates, children until you know if they want you to.
- [53:27]
B
Oh, man. I had. So one of my buddies who doesn't listen to neither of the buddies who told me this are involved in this listen to the show. So. And I'm not going to identify them, but one of my buddies who has since successfully had a child, he found out that he was. His wife was going to have a child, and the wife said, you can't tell anyone. But he could not. Not tell at least one person. So we told one of our mutual friends. And then for reasons I won't bore, the podcast with, my buddy had to tell me for another reason. And he's like, I'm only telling you because you have to know, but you can't. You can't know about this. Like, they don't want to announce for like another six weeks, so you can't know. And. And so I had to. I had to walk around and live with that for six weeks. I. I understandably. So people get very, like, they want to announce the pregnancies and the burst on their own timeline. And I just. Recent. This is fairly recent, so I recently had to. Had to deal with it. I was like, I don't want to know this. Why did you tell me? Even though I kind of had to know, and to this day, they still don't know that I knew. I had to act all surprised when I got told and all that kind of stuff. I'm actually very good at this on radio as well.
- [54:30]
A
So I'm the best at this. I'm very good. If you need to. If you don't want to tell people that you're having a baby, but you need somebody to know, I'm your guy because I will forget, not care or whatever. It just won't. We had this happen recently. Like, some friends of ours got pregnant and I knew. They told, like, I think on the golf course, my buddy was like, hey, you know, we just found out having a boy, blah, blah, blah, blah, congratulations, whatever. And then my wife comes to me like two months later and she's like, did you know so and so and so and so are having a boy? And I'm like, yeah. And she's like, why didn't you tell me? And I'm like, well, they told me not to say anything, you know, so I was just not saying anything. I was following orders. And she was like, I'm your wife. And I was like, I really just forgot. I would have told you, I think. I wasn't, I wasn't. I don't care enough to even remember. I didn't care enough to tell you. Yeah, I don't care enough.
- [55:18]
B
Yeah. Well, you know, that's.
- [55:20]
A
That's like, here's the thing. It'll be the biggest secret in the world to you, and I'll keep it only because I don't care enough to even tell it.
- [55:29]
B
I don't think about you at all.
- [55:32]
A
I'll keep all your secrets because I don't really care.
- [55:35]
B
That's amazing. That's a good story. That's a show. And I think we got. We got more coming here, but I might. I might have to dip out for a minute or two, but. But I'll be back before long.
- [55:45]
A
Oh, I can't wait. Shouts to Devin Downey. Shouts to Chester, S.C. shouts to Terry Teagle. Legend Huck Larnell. Thank you guys once again for watching listening to the Eye on college basketball podcast. If you're not subscribed, please go subscribe anywhere you subscribe to podcasts. Apple, Spotify, there's more of us than there are of them. That should be reflected in the comments. To do that, we'll talk to you again real soon. Till then, take care. You can be anything. This I know. Paramount Podcasts.
- [56:50]
B
Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon, the best 5G network in America. I never look so good. You look the same. But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.
- [57:01]
A
You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.
- [57:04]
B
Selfies check please. New and excited existing customers can get the new iPhone 17 Pro. Designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever with eligible phone, trade in and unlimited ultimate any condition guaranteed.
- [57:13]
A
Best 5G towards root metrics Theta United States 1H 2025.
- [57:16]
B
All rights reserve, trade and additional terms apply for all offers.
- [57:18]
A
See verizon.com for details.