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- [00:00]
A
Hi. This is Margaret Brennan, moderator of Face the Nation and chief foreign affairs correspondent at CBS News. Last week, mayors from around the country were in Washington for a meeting of the US Conference of Mayors. A few of them joined me for a conversation about affordability and other issues facing their communities. Here's that conversation. We're joined now by a bipartisan group of mayors from across the country. Republican David Holt of Oklahoma City, Democrat Eileen Higgins of Miami, Democrat Quinton Lucas of Kansas City, and Republican Mark Freeman of Mesa, Arizona. And it's good to have you all here in town at the table together speaking in a bipartisan way. There are so many things that you see on the ground operating your cities. And what we see in our polling again and again is the number one issue for people. When they say it's the economy, what they really mean is the cost of living. And the biggest contributor to that really is housing. Shelter costs right now really burdening people. And I want to start with you. Mare higgins, Miami we looked it up. It's the least affordable rental market of any major city. Median price for condos and single family homes up more than 80% since COVID So many people moved in there around that period of time. You've been trying to make government land available to develop on. Is that working? Are you going to make a dent in prices?
- [01:25]
B
Well, what I can tell you is the largest landowners in many communities are municipal governments. And prior to becoming mayor, I served on our county commission for eight years. And during that time, by activating county owned land, particularly land around transit stations, I was able to in a short period of time build or rehabilitate 4,000 units of affordable and workforce housing. And we have about 3,000 more in the pipeline. So that is a big contributor and it can be used better. And certainly I intend to do so at the city. When you're building stuff, costs are high, right? Cost of land, cost of concrete, cost of steel, cost of labor. So if cost of land can be taken out of that equation, it makes it easier to build affordable and workforce housing. And the other thing that's really important that government can do is make it faster to build it. And one of the initiatives I undertook at the county was to completely revamp how we permit affordable housing. And at our point in time, we could permit a 12 story building in less than four months. Now, part of the reason I was elected mayor of the city of Miami was people trusted me on building housing that is affordable for our workers and to do it in record time. So my top priority at the city is to fix a broken permitting system, system where right now it can take two to three years before you can even break ground on an affordable housing project. So very important that cities pay attention to their bureaucracy, make it as small as possible. Because every day your waiting and permitting is the day the costs go up.
- [03:08]
C
Yeah.
- [03:09]
A
And this has become such a national issue. I mean, Mayor Holt, you've heard President Trump issue this executive order saying he's going to ban institutional investors from developing in real estate sales, single family homes. Is it institutional investors that are really the problem? I mean, what is it in Oklahoma City that's sort of holding up some of that free space to develop affordable housing?
- [03:34]
D
I mean, cost, cost of construction, cost of materials. You know, as Mayor Higgins just referenced, of course, we all are looking at our permitting and regulations and making sure that's as, that's all local level stuff. That's all local level stuff. Yeah. I think at the national level we certainly see room for partnership though. Everybody's got to do their part and certainly we can't ask the federal government to be a partner in this if we're not doing the kind of things that you could ask every one of us. And I bet you we've got like five different things we're working on right now on housing. But we've been here in Washington speaking with one voice on this and seeking a federal partnership. And it has been just as bipartisan as this table we are meeting this week. We heard and had a visit from, you know, Senator Warren who has a bill with Republican Senator Tim Scott, who also sent a message. And of course we've been working on the House side as well with a bipartisan group. Congressman Flood, Congressman Cleaver. So there's a lot of movement here and there's a lot of interest and certainly we also welcome the continued interest of President Trump in the administration. But none of that will be, none of this will be the silver bullet. But if we're all working on it, we will be hitting at what you described correctly, which is that housing is the single greatest cost in every household budget. So if you want to, if you want to address affordability, if that's the political watchword of 2026, then I would add to it, housing is how you're going to do that.
- [04:55]
A
Right. And you, when you talk about convening all these people, you're the president right now.
- [04:58]
D
I am the current president of the United States Conference of Mayors, a hundred year old organization that has speaks for 1400 mayors, had 300 mayors here in Washington this week.
- [05:07]
A
And they all have the same problem.
- [05:08]
D
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, to different degrees and in different ways. But there's not a single mayor who said, no, I'm good on housing.
- [05:13]
E
Right?
- [05:14]
D
Yeah. Everybody, this is our number one issue.
- [05:17]
A
Number one issue. Mayor Lucas, out in Kansas City, you've tried to create affordable housing via a trust fund. I think that's winding down, though. Did it make a difference? Do you still have the kind of shortage that is a problem?
- [05:30]
C
You know, it made a tremendous difference. The challenge in all of our cities, my city of about half a million people, I think needs about 28,000 more units. I think everyone around the table will have similar numbers, challenges. And so we are making a dent in a problem. But I think the first step we need is to identify more resources in a lot of cases, to identify more land. And we are seeing progress. The question, I think, for the American city is how do you fund it long term? If we don't see more federal funding long term, states aren't as heavily in the business as they used to be. Are you looking on bond obligations for local taxpayers? More private investment? Permitting and regulatory burdens are a huge part of what we're trying to do. But it is interesting you are seeing necessarily nonpartisan solutions to this because you need private sector, public investment, land use reforms, everything under the sun to make sure you can make a change.
- [06:22]
A
And do you see working with the federal government actually being collaborative at this point?
- [06:29]
C
You know, the federal government has been very collaborative. There are certainly always some holdups and issues. And I think that exists from administration to administration, making sure we can get funding from HUD more efficiently, making sure that there's a focus on true housing reform. But frankly, we recognize that there's not a lot moving in Washington some days, but this bill on housing is one of them. And so we do see progress. We see an administration that's talking to us on it, and we hope and believe that everyone understands that housing is core to how we make our cities better long term.
- [07:00]
A
I can confirm that a lot is stuck in Washington. Your comment is correct there. Mayor, let me ask you, because out in Arizona, we look, there is just like statewide this population boom that has happened, and that's adding to not just the housing shortage. You got a water crisis out there to support this population. We checked, and the renters in Arizona are spending at least 30% of their income on housing. How do you offset all of those strains?
- [07:28]
E
Well, for Mesa, Arizona, what we've done is we're a unique city. We don't have a primary property tax, nor do we have a tax on food. So when you go to the grocery
- [07:37]
A
store, can we get more people to move there?
- [07:42]
E
Water crisis you brought up. We're not in a water crisis. In fact, Mayor Gallego and I have formed a water coalition to where we're working on water strategies and portfolios because we have a 100 year assured water supply for Arizona, especially for all our municipalities. And that allows us to meet the housing needs that we need in our community and affordability. And we're holding our prices down in Mesa and our surrounding areas.
- [08:08]
A
So you don't see it as a water crisis right now, even though you have this sort of messy interstate battle over the Colorado river and water supplies?
- [08:16]
E
Well, just transparent. I am a farmer, so I do farm. I use water to irrigate my crops with. And we are having a water issue with the upper basin and lower basin states. So that lower basin, which I'm in, is willing to negotiate with the upper basin and to continue to get additional waters to Arizona, that which we definitely need. I mean, Arizona, Mesa, we have experienced a 775,000 acre foot cut of water. We are the junior partners on the Colorado river where other states are not. So we've taken our share of cuts. So we want solutions. That's what we need.
- [08:56]
A
And we'll be watching that because I believe that interstate conflict is only facing more deadlines and pressure. But let me come back to you, Mayor Higgins. We checked. Bank of America lists Miami as one of the top cities with the largest population loss year over year. 70% people who were leaving chose to go elsewhere in the South. What is it that's driving the migration out after you have this boom during COVID people now leaving, is that due to just affordability? Is that due to something else?
- [09:28]
B
We are still blessed with a lot of companies that are locating their headquarters and choosing Miami as their home. And so certainly we continue to see people moving there. Now we did have, I guess the COVID boom of people that came down for a while that weren't intending to make Florida their permanent home. And so some of them have gone back to other places. But at the end of the day, we still have a robust sector of our community that is there. They've always been there. And so my job now is to make sure with these new tech companies and AI companies and cyber companies that are locating and calling Miami home to connect our workforce to those high paying jobs. Because we have traditionally been a service sector economy and it's great to have a Hospitality economy. Those tend to be low wage jobs with low benefits. And so workforce development programs, particularly in cooperation with Miami Dade College, to prepare our workers for these tech jobs is the way to make sure we are addressing affordability through wages, not just through the cost of housing, giving them access to the careers they deserve and to harness the opportunity that is locating with these companies in Miami.
- [10:49]
A
So I want to come back to tech, but let's just continue on this theme of labor and supply. Immigration is such a heated issue in this country right now, and enforcement in particular. There's at the national level this tension we're seeing, particularly in the wake of the shootings in Minnesota between the federal government and then state and local authorities. I want to understand how you're thinking about this because I saw your statement that called for general de escalation. None of your cities are technically sanctuary cities. All of them comply with requests from the federal government to cooperate on immigration enforcement. That's different from places like Minneapolis. Mayor Freeman, we checked.4% of the population in Arizona is undocumented. According to Pew. As I understand it, you have limited cooperation with ICE and you hand people over to federal authorities if they have an immigration infraction, but your local authorities picked them up for something else. Right. That's what, in effect, that policy means. Why does that work for you when it doesn't work in places like Minneapolis and you have this high degree of tension and the standoff?
- [12:06]
E
Well, personally, I think that's a great question, but I think there's some misinterpretation, excuse me, of it, because in Mesa, we have a agreement with ice, but however, it's only on infractions that may be a civil infraction. And so we don't have a jail in Mesa, Arizona, so we go to a holding facility. And we've been working with ICE for. Since 2009 with an agreement that we found very successful with. But more importantly, what we're doing in Mesa, I've taken. I've elevated it to the next level. We have Dias de Muertos, the Day of the Dead that we have with our Hispanic Latino community. We have El Greco, who's the liberation of Spain from Mexico. So we have these great experiences in Mesa, Arizona, in our downtown area, in cooperation with our Latino, Hispanic area. And I meet with our pastors as well to make sure that everything is going well on their end. Mm.
- [13:10]
A
And you don't feel the tension at the local level right now, like the debate we're having as a country?
- [13:15]
E
No, I don't Feel.
- [13:16]
A
Are people talking about it?
- [13:18]
E
Yeah, they talk about it in our community, but I'm meeting with the people who are actually affected by it, and they find comfort in knowing that our city stands ready to support them.
- [13:28]
A
So there's no protest or pressure to. To change your current policies more towards something like out in Minneapolis?
- [13:37]
E
No, there's no. I mean, there's pressures all the time from other organizations, but we stand solid in our commitment to provide safety to our neighborhoods and to our Latino. Hispanic communities, and we work with them every week, every month.
- [13:53]
A
Mayor Holt, I want to ask you about your city, but also in this leadership role you have, how are you counseling mayors to go through this? Right now? This is a real pressure at the federal level to sometimes change local laws or state laws.
- [14:10]
D
Well, I don't know. A few observations in reaction to that. I mean, first, it's really important to point out that we have enforced immigration laws in this country for over a century. ICE has been around for two decades. There was even a previous Trump administration that. And in none of those times did you see this level of chaos in our cities. I understand in the previous Trump administration, there was controversy about things at the border, but I'm talking about all the 1,000 miles from the border, internal enforcement in places like Minneapolis. So we can look back to previous eras of normality and appreciate that there are ways to competently enforce immigration laws in this country. And I think that's what we're kind of asking for, is that sort of pivot back to a new strategy. That may be an old strategy. And I think we all accept that this administration prioritizes a higher level of enforcement. But what we're seeing in the conflicts in the streets of Minneapolis is just obviously unacceptable. And we're still sort of reeling from what happened last Saturday. And, you know, we're generally encouraged that the administration seems to be exploring that pivot. You know, and of course, we understand it takes time to sort of get the right personnel in place and make the policies. So, I mean, we're giving them that space. But what was happening in Minneapolis that kind of culminated in the second death of a protester last Saturday is obviously something that we would all fear to happen in our cities, and we feared that that kind of chaos was starting to potentially creep around the country. I think the other thing I want to observe, though, is that mayors are certainly caught in a little bit of an impossible situation. You know, we take these roles with our chief obligation being the protection of our residents, and we're even given a police Department people with guns to aid us in that pursuit. But there is a thing called the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution. And when the federal government and federal law enforcement comes into your city, we are fully subservient to that in the eyes of the law. And we also believe in the rule of law. So we get caught kind of in the middle of these tensions. And we need a federal government who will use discretion and restraint with that power. And that has mostly worked for the last 250 years. So I think we just need to remind everybody that this is possible. And I think you see mayors maybe messaging some of that to our residents, some of it to Congress, some of it to the administration, just trying to find a happy medium for everybody where we can coexist with all of these inherent tensions that, of course, have always existed and we have largely been able to manage.
- [16:57]
A
But that's why I think it's so interesting to talk to you all as mayors because you actually have to deal with these people day to day and secure their safety, as you said, but also, you know, remain compliant. In Oklahoma, it looks like the highway patrol works with ICE to conduct stings. So you do have some working together of sting.
- [17:18]
D
I mean, it's a state agency, the Oklahoma highway. That is not our police department.
- [17:21]
A
Right. But when you see that working together, is it smooth? Are there tensions now because of what just happened in the past few weeks? Like, are people questioning whether these policies should stay?
- [17:36]
D
Well, I mean, let me differentiate and make it clear.
- [17:38]
A
Do people look at Minneapolis and say that could happen here is what I'm saying.
- [17:41]
D
Well, I'm sure every mayor in America here in D.C. was feeling that way. And, and again, not because any of us think that there shouldn't be immigration enforcement. I mean, this is not the question. It's just how is it managed? I mean, we have some mayor colleagues that were former police chiefs, for example, have really great expertise in law enforcement. We're all amateurs, right? But these are people who did this for a living. And they're telling us, they look at these videos and they see police tactics that haven't been utilized anywhere in 30 years in a local law enforcement agency. That these are, these are not the cutting edge techniques of law enforcement that we have been using, our police departments have been using for the last quarter century to build trust with our communities. And so that's what's. It's, it's not the. We're not really arguing about whether this country should enforce immigration.
- [18:32]
A
Right.
- [18:33]
D
Everybody believes that. I mean, not everybody, but the broad swath of the American public does. But what we are arguing about is police tactics and strategies and managing engagement with residents on the street. You know, we have built so much trust in these last few years and worked really hard at that. And obviously this. This whole situation has threatened to erode that trust.
- [18:57]
A
Yeah. Mayor Lucas, I want to come to you on this idea of how the federal government is trying to implement immigration in your city, because we checked, and I believe you, you have a similar experience out in Oklahoma, too, where the federal government's looking to turn industrial warehouses into large scale detention facilities for up to 10,000 people. That has caused some friction in Kansas City. You have tried to change things. You passed a city ordinance to combat it. Can you actually stop the federal government from doing it?
- [19:31]
C
You know, I think there's substantial question to it. The people of Kansas City have asked us to make sure, though, that we stand up for in this situation, simple zoning, that we make sure that we share what is the viewpoint of the people of Kansas City. There absolutely is a supremacy clause. There's also a 10th amendment. And so in our view, that is, which is reserved to the states, which includes local zoning, local police powers, particularly where private contractors are in the transaction with the city, we have the opportunity to engage. There's been a long fight near us in Leavenworth, Kansas, you know it, for a prison and a military base where they've also managed to reject the placement of a federal facility working through a private enterprise. So we wanted to make clear not only that people largely didn't want a 10,000 person detention facility near them, but also that they have to go through things like zoning, a special use permit. It sounds in some way boring. It is core to what government is. But I think taking us from perhaps the political issue, there's the simple one, which is in all of our communities, we want to make sure people are treated humanely. Converting a gigantic distribution facility next to railroad tracks and all of that into a warehouse for 10,000 people for which it was never designed, is not right. And it is fundamentally something that is inhumane and inhospitable, at least to the senses that we have in Kansas City, and I would submit to you, most American cities. So whether it is converting giant distribution facilities into mass detention warehouses, whether it's Alligator, Alcatraz in Florida or anything under the sun, I think you are seeing communities say, we want to make sure that if there will be detention, if there will be enforcement, it is consistent with constitutional principles long term.
- [21:12]
A
Can you stop it? Do you know yet?
- [21:14]
C
You know, I think that probably that would be a federal district court determination. I have seen there have been many zoning battles over the years about what can be done. I think the fact that you mainly have private enterprises that are looking to build these, then lease to the government creates some level of a question.
- [21:28]
A
And just on you, Mayor, quickly, I saw that the owners of the warehouse are now trying to not sell the property to Homeland Security. Is this because people just don't want it in their backyard or.
- [21:40]
D
Well, yeah, I mean, this is actually. I think this whole question is interesting because it's actually where we can find a lot of unity. It's a land use question. It's not a political question or even an immigration question.
- [21:50]
A
Well, for some people it is, right? Yeah.
- [21:52]
D
I mean, maybe. But also, like, you can be for a very aggressive approach from ICE and not want to live next to a detention center. Right. So it becomes an NB issue. Yeah.
- [22:02]
A
Not in my backyard.
- [22:03]
D
And we also have a fundamental belief always in local control and the belief that if there's a land use question, it should be adjudicated at the local level. There should be hearings and people should be able to talk and there should be votes. And, you know, when the federal government, however, historically acquires land in a city because of the supremacy clause, they don't ask for a thing. They don't ask for a zoning approval, they don't ask for a building permit. They just do it. And that's the tension inherent here. But it's kind of easy for mayors to set aside the political dynamic here and just say, hey, that's a high impact. Use a detention center. We have a special permit requirement for that. We would really like to go through a process, take that through a process. And so, yeah, Kansas City passed a resolution to try and create what may ultimately be adjudicated. Flashpoint over that question. In our situation in Oklahoma City, the facility that was proposed, now, the owners are not no longer engaging with DHS over that conversation, but we'll see where all that goes.
- [23:02]
A
And before we leave the topic of immigration, Mayor Higgins, nearly 7% of Florida is undocumented. According to Pew in Miami, the police cooperate with ice, but you, during your campaign, were very critical of that decision to cooperate. Can you change the policy without the governor being on board?
- [23:22]
B
We were. The governor issued a requirement that local municipalities cooperate with ice. And many municipalities, including the city of Miami, before I became mayor, signed that agreement. It is very difficult to unwind. It would take a vote of our city commission to do so. So obviously, as Mayor I intend to comply with the law. And so what we have done in our 1500 person police department is we have trained three individuals. Should ICE call that are able to answer that call and work with them? Obviously we're going to comply with the law, but we are not going to help beyond that because in my community in South Florida, we are the most affected. ICE and its tactics have been in my community for over a year. They have been causing great fear and terror in our residents. I cannot go anywhere without meeting someone. My brother, my uncle, my sister, Alligator, Alcatraz. No sabemos donde esta. We don't know where they have been taken. And that has been going on for months. It is inhumane, it is cruel. I'm a Catholic. I can barely grapple with the lack of humanity around all this. And then what we have, very differently from any other community in Miami Dade county, which we are part of, approximately 15% of our population has TPS. So you're talking temporary protected status. Temporary protected status. You're talking about between 250,000 and 300,000 individuals that would that have slowly but surely they've lost status, become overnight illegals in the eyes of the federal government. And this enforcement in our Nicaraguan community, our Hondurano community, our Venezuelan community has driven many people into hiding. Children are not going to school and obviously ICE is deporting them. Tuesday night we face a very, very dire situation. Our Haitian community loses its access to TPS at midnight. 20% of TPS recipients with Haitian heritage work in healthcare. So on Wednesday, we are talking about nursing homes, home healthcare aides, hospitals, nurses, physician aides. All of them are going to be out of a job when they wake
- [25:45]
A
up on Wednesday morning because their legal pathway and status is going to be revoked. And suddenly they become unnecessarily.
- [25:53]
B
Haiti is not safe. Venezuela is not safe. TPS should be extended immediately for Venezuelans. It was erased with a stroke of a pen. It can be put in place with a stroke of a pen. And TPS for Haitian immigrants should absolutely, positively be. Our economy is at stake and our humanity is at stake.
- [26:15]
A
We're going to watch that. That developing story. We've been talking about it here on Face the Nation. I want to quickly get to you all on one of the big drain on resources that we've been seeing, but also possibly a jobs boom, and that's in the tech space, particularly with these data centers that are being built out in Arizona. Of course, taxpayers at the national level have funded this huge computer chip investment that's happening out in Arizona. How do you balance technological innovation and maintaining access to water and making energy affordable? How do you do that?
- [26:47]
E
Well, we do it collaboratively with our energy supplier. You know one thing about Arizona, we're really fortunate. We have TSMC who's the largest semiconductor manufacturer in the world, in Phoenix. And so that ripple effect with that manufacturer has caused a lot of great things for Arizona, especially for mesa. We have 30 Japanese companies, Korean companies, Taiwanese companies and Mesa supplying things for the semiconductor industry. And water is a key thing along with that and we continue to incorporate that. We've worked with Arizona State University on their advanced technology. We have. They just opened up a $180 million facility, million dollars worth of robots in there to teach about high tech. And that's going to bring jobs, that's going to bring affordability to the city of Mesa because then allow people to have high paying jobs and be able to meet the needs and demands of living and work. Now did you want to get into water or.
- [27:46]
A
Well, you just sold me in all the good things. You practically are going to have to figure out all the other things too, like higher energy crisis. And you already said it's not a water crisis but it's a water issue.
- [27:58]
E
It is a water issue because I told you that we have a 100 year assured water supply in Arizona and it's a requirement for cities to move forward with that.
- [28:08]
A
Let me get to you here. MER HOLT Energy price in Oklahoma up 7% year over year. How much is the tech boom driving up the energy costs?
- [28:18]
D
I don't know.
- [28:20]
A
Is it?
- [28:21]
D
I would love for somebody to say Oklahoma City is having a tech boom.
- [28:26]
A
Well, you've got data centers.
- [28:27]
D
Well, there's some proposals. Yeah. In the state. There's some proposals coming forward to put them in the city. And I think we're still trying to figure out what we really think about that. I think we all are. And if I'd have been on the set six months ago and you'd asked me about data centers, I would. I don't know what you're talking about. This is embarrassing. But now it's like everything, it's a huge issue. It's a huge issue. We all got them coming forward with zoning proposals and the need for water and energy. I will say. And we don't have all the details at my fingertips but part of the reason we come together is best practices. And Lansing, Michigan would be worth a Google because they recently came to an agreement with somebody opening a data center and the mayor shared all that with us this week. And it sounded like a pretty good deal. Right. So I think that's going to be I think we're all trying to find benchmarks and try to find like, okay, if we're going to do this, what should we be asking for? And the Lansing, Michigan model sounded pretty impressive. But I mean, we're all interested in jobs and investment in our cities, but obviously we got to make sure the cost benefit analysis ultimately works.
- [29:31]
A
And last question to you, Mayor Lucas. More than 30 AI data centers in Kansas City. I had no idea. How are you managing that, though?
- [29:39]
C
I think it is highly controversial. So you hear about the benefits. Largely the discussion of the benefits are the revenues. They come both to local government, obviously the companies, the tech jobs, although there aren't that many that come with each data center. The challenges are this.
- [29:53]
A
There aren't.
- [29:54]
C
Right? You're using a lot of land, you are using a lot of utility resources, and you're using the grid quite a bit. And so even though you may have the best contracts long term, the question that isn't just at the city level, but really for public regulatory commissions at the state level and beyond is how much is too much? How much in one community do you want to be dependent on one economic sector? And fundamentally, do you want this large scale of a use across the street from somebody's house in their neighborhood with all of those challenges?
- [30:24]
A
Well, I know we'll be tracking it more on FACE THE nation. Thank you all for joining us in this bipartisan fashion.
- [30:31]
D
This is what we do. This is merit.
- [30:34]
A
Hey, this is Washington. Okay. It's great to see you guys sitting down and talking to each other and having conversation about real issues that impact real people. Thank you all for joining us.
- [30:46]
B
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