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- [00:01]
A
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- [00:32]
B
hi, this is Margaret Brennan, moderator of Face the Nation and chief foreign affairs correspondent at CBS News. Last week I spoke with two Americans who were previously held in a notorious Tehran prison. We discussed their fears for Americans who are currently behind bars in Iran as the war rages on. Here's our conversation. There are at least four Americans currently detained in Iran. Two of them, Reza Balizadeh and Cameron Hekmati, have been designated by the US Government as wrongfully detained and are believed to be held in Iran's notorious ebb and prison. We're joined now by two people who have shared that experience of being wrongfully detained inside Iran, Siamak Namazi and Imad Shargi. Neta Shargi is Imad's sister and spent years advocating for his release and continues to help other families of wrongful detainees. And Roger Karstens is a CBS News contributor and formerly the US Special envoy for hostage affairs under both Biden and Trump's first administration. Welcome to the program. It is surreal to see the two of you sitting next to each other as well, having covered your cases for so long. I want to ask about what's going on right now during the 12 day war. We know that Israel last June did bomb Eben Prison during this current war. We haven't heard of anything like that yet. But last Sunday, Iran's foreign minister told us here on Face the Nation that as long as the US And Israel do not attack their prisons, I guess they are safe. He was talking about the at least four Americans that we mentioned there. You know what it's like inside, what concerns you about the Americans there now.
- [02:23]
C
Thank you, Margaret, for having us here. It's great to be sitting in front of you now that we are free. I think whenever there is an issue taking place in Iran, the walls of Evin are like an amplifier. So when there's a ripple outside in the society, there's a tidal wave inside. I was there in October of 2022 when the MAHSA Amini protests were taking place. Things change rapidly from bad to worse inside. It's a very uncomfortable situation. I'm worried about the Americans that are there now about their safety, both from their captors. And, you know, the country is being bombed. So I'm not, you know, I'm a little worried that they might become targets of inmates. So for being American. For being American, I mean, you know, if you hear that your village, your town has been hit and the closest thing you have to take revenge is three cells down. So that possibility is always there.
- [03:49]
B
Siamak, you know very well what it's like on the inside. I mean, when you hear Imad's description there, what are you concerned about in terms of the Americans and their status right now?
- [04:05]
D
I think this is as dangerous a time as it can be for fire detainees in Iran. They are stuck between a cruel regime that is using them as a pawn in their horrible game of hostage diplomacy and a war that they cannot control. In the 12 Day War, Israel bombed Evin prison around Dune. I think they dropped about seven bombs. And bombs don't distinguish between inmates and guards. So they have a real worry. Ahmad pointed out correctly that as soon as the situation in the country becomes securitized, it becomes much more securitized within the prison. I am less worried about the inmates. I think these are lovely people and they will probably have good friends around them. I am much more worried about the regime. They are the easiest to grab punching bag right now in the hands of that rogue regime. So I think this is as dangerous a time. And finally, for a hostage or wrongfully detained citizens abroad, their biggest fear is to be forgotten. And this is a very dangerous time for them. With all that's going on in Washington's mind and the regular, the countries that help the Omanis, the Qataris, everyone has bigger fish to fry than to worry about the detainees. Let me join Ahmad and the others of thanking you bringing attention to this. It's. We do need to get them out. This is as dangerous a time as we can imagine for them.
- [05:59]
B
And you're right, we're not hearing a lot about these prisoners. We will honor some of the families who don't want names public. But we mentioned that the numbers are perhaps even higher than what's being publicly reported. Why? Why isn't it being discussed more? Is there a risk right now in making it an issue? That's often the argument you hear from diplomats. You increase the price on the head of an American if you amplify that they're important. Why do you think it's important right now to say that they matter?
- [06:39]
C
Because I and my friend sitting next to me where on those floors, in those cells, we Understand what it means when people in your country know about you, that your case is important enough for people in the State Department to talk about. It gives you hope. You go to bed a little easier, you wake up a little lighter. You know there is a light at the end of the tunnel. The worst thing that can happen to you is that nobody talks about you. That is a horrible feeling. You really feel lost in the universe.
- [07:27]
B
Sciammac, you were, I believe, the longest held American prisoner to have been released from Iran.
- [07:33]
E
Eight years.
- [07:35]
D
Not that the world title you hope for, is it?
- [07:38]
B
No. I'm glad that you have a sense of humor about it. I guess you have to to get through that.
- [07:47]
D
Yes. But right now, let's focus on those who are in there. We're thankfully out. And I want to echo what Emma says. It's really surreal to be sitting here. I think four years ago to or three years ago to the mark, there was someone who had snuck in a cell phone and let us borrow it to see your program. And I think you were talking with Ahmad's daughters and his wife, if I remember correctly. And I remember telling Ahmad, I'm so proud of your girls for getting so good at this. I'm sorry that, you know, this is what it took, but it's extremely important to give people hope. But beyond hope, it's also the policymakers on this side. There's so much going on in Iran, and especially with this war. All US Presidents, I think every single one of them would want to get American detainees out. And I think this particular president takes pride in it. I don't know if he's even aware that we have at least six. And I would challenge the four number, at least six, probably more, because there's a lot of people who don't want their cases mentioned, even to the State Department. We need to get the word out to give them hope. As I said, being forgotten is the biggest fear today. Probably rivaled with the fear of bombs dropping on them or the regime taking out the fact that they can't do anything about the bomb on these guys. But we need to put pressure on the policymakers here to remind them we have Americans in harm's way solely for holding a blue passport, and we need to bring them home. I think one thing I should emphasize is I know it's wartime. I know what else are we going to do to Iran? What are we going to threaten them with? Or, you know, there's no.
- [09:47]
B
They're incredibly sanctioned. True.
- [09:49]
D
But. Well, they're getting bombed. There's nothing Else they're getting really bombed. But all wars end in diplomacy, either direct or indirect. And so what I would like to see and what I hope for programs like this could encourage is to make sure that it is a real priority to get out our people the first chance there is for diplomacy and negotiations with Iran.
- [10:14]
B
Neda, you were such an advocate for your brother. Two of the names that do want to be public, and I want to read them. Reza Valizade is a journalist. He was charged with collaborating with a hostile government. I guess the United States is the hostile government. Kamaran Hekmati was just designated this week. He's 61 years old. A two year sentence, an accusation of a few things, including visiting Israel. What do we need to know about these cases, and what does this, like, formal designation actually achieve?
- [10:46]
D
Mm.
- [10:47]
F
Thank you for having me on. The designation is very important because you publicly now recognize these individuals as being used for their blue passport. And the United States government now has the sort of carte blanche to use all its resources to get them out. And, you know, these two individuals, Reza and Kamaran's families, do want their cases to be public. You know, as a journalist, you know, I don't think Reza is getting as much attention as, you know, Evan Gershkovich was receiving. I don't know why, but we need to increase Reza's profile. And, you know, it's public knowledge. Kamaran Hekmati is an American Jew, and his family wants everyone to know that he needs the same attention that we gave the hostages who were being held in Gaza. And, yes, we are at war, but President Trump has shown us proof of concept. He brought home Americans during the war in Gaza. And I am incredibly confident, having brought over 100Americans home, that if he knows the names of these individuals, if he knows the stories, that he will, you know, instruct his administration to find a way of bringing them home.
- [12:11]
B
Did you. Do you think there really is a chance he doesn't know?
- [12:15]
F
You know, I haven't heard him say those names. And, you know, as someone who advocated for my brother and for ciamac and for other families, we always say freedom starts with a name. You've got to utter the name. It has to come out of your mouth. And I hope to hear President Trump utter those words. And the families, you know, my advice to the families is, is, you know, you have. Your audience is here in the US Engage with the media, senior leaders in the White House and in the State Department, hold them accountable. They understand they have thick skin. If it was their family members being held in Iran, they would do the same thing and make sure the American public knows the stories and knows the names to don't be scared, be vocal, be out there.
- [13:12]
B
Roger, you were one of those officials with thick skin inside the department hearing in the past about people who had been detained. Right now, why aren't we hearing more? You were part of the last administration's attempts to get these gentlemen out. There was a trade there. There was release of prisoners from the United States, people who had actually gone through the court system, and then there was also a release of about $6 billion in funds. That was hugely controversial, but it was a trade President Biden decided to carry out. Do these options not exist now?
- [13:51]
G
Yeah, I mean, the options probably change. I can point out that the trade that we did in terms of money that was from South Korea to Qatar, the money's not been touched. Not $1 went into Iran during that period. It was to be able to use for humanitarian items, and the Iranians never used it. And I think there probably are things that we should be considering, but I'll say just a few things. Number one, from experience, President Trump does care about this topic very much. We often say that this is the last nonpartisan or bipartisan issue and that both President Trump, President Biden, and go back to probably the 1950s, you'll find American presidents that really cared about this. And as Neda said, President Trump has a pretty good track record here. I would say that, though, right now you're seeing the political, military, and economic degradation of Iran's capabilities, and that's kind of leading it. So you're going to see the military, of course, front and center in terms of trying to drive a strategy. And maybe the things that you might call as a political objective or a hostage objective might be off to the side or not necessarily coming up to fruition. I think it's our hope that if the president lists four war objectives, that the fifth objective is getting Americans out and maybe freeing all the other people that are kept in Evan prison. I think I've seen a list of probably just under 20, not only Americans, but Europeans as well. And I'm hopeful that whether that's an announced objective or whether that's off to the side, I'm hopeful that that's on his list of things to do. But maybe the last thing I'll point out is the designation of Iran as a state sponsor of hostage diplomacy came out like a day or two prior
- [15:26]
B
the war starting for the very first time it was used first time.
- [15:28]
G
And I think it was done for a reason. I think that Secretary of State Rubio, in making that announcement, was trying to say, this is important, we're watching it, but we have some military objectives that we need to work through first.
- [15:40]
B
So you are confident that ultimately these Americans will be able to come out and that the administration will push for them?
- [15:47]
G
You know, it's hard to say. I am confident that they will eventually come out. I always used to say this about my two friends across the table here. We know how the story ends. The story ends with them coming out. It's just how much time and how much pain do you have to go through to get there? And I'm just hopeful that the administration is working, that I would have a belief that they are. I think this is the one area that I know President Trump cares deeply about, just as President Biden did. And I'd like to think that it's one of those objectives that's over here and when it's time, it will come to the forefront. But I think just from where we are in terms of what's important to us, you know, deep down, I know we'd like to see that come out to the forefront earlier rather than later.
- [16:25]
B
Because you two have such incredible experience. Can you tell us a little bit about who are the people inside the walls of Evin prison? Because right now in the American dialogue, you are hearing these calls from the Israeli government, from the American government, for the Iranian people to take to the streets. You knew a lot of that political opposition and they were inside the walls of that prison. Right. Who is there? What are you thinking about in this moment?
- [16:53]
C
I will defer to CMEK to answer that question. I think for about two years, CMEK and I were separate. CMEK knows some of the more highly known and respected opposition leaders who were in his ward. And I got to meet some of the boys who had gone on the street and Protestant during the Mahsa Amini and also during the fuel increase uprisings. So I think together we have seen both sides of them.
- [17:29]
D
So, Siamek, that's the point. Every prison is not just where they take criminals. It's where the regime holds anyone they want out of the way. And this is a highly corrupt mafia like system. So you will run into very senior people. It's kind of like a mafia war. He knocks out the group, nothing personal, wants the turf. So if your underboss gets weak, you end up in prison and some other guy takes over your economic turf. So you meet very senior Iranian officials all the way down to members of ISIS and everything in between. Obviously, there's a lot of the opposition coming from prominent people, former reformists turned transitionalists, as they call themselves, some really, really amazingly brave people. Human rights lawyers, civil rights movements, from labor unions, teachers movements. And I will tell you something, they will leave you in awe of what bravery means. And I have seen tremendous bravery. But what we always knew was across. We were just one yard away from the women's ward and we knew they had the real guts. They shamed us, they shamed all the men. They had a lot more restrictions and a lot more guts. You just meet amazing, amazing people. And one thing I'm proud to say you would see, from monarchists to members of the MEK to, as I said, reformists. And they spoke respectfully to each other, unlike what we see today among the Iranian opposition of the diaspora, which has a long way to go. But you do meet amazing, amazing, courageous people who stand up for what is right and gladly come in prison and within prison too, stand up for what is right and pay the price inside as well.
- [19:37]
B
And I think you captured it there, that the prison isn't just a place for criminals. It's really a symbol of the regime's hold and the way it uses it to control the public and the political power. Right, that's what I'm hearing you say.
- [19:53]
D
And it also shows how bad they are at doing that. Because even within prison, even while they're containing, you hear people putting out announcements, printing in the newspapers, even within Evin prison, they fail to crush the voice
- [20:12]
B
of these courageous people for the inmates now and the Americans there. Roger, can you tell us, in the talks that Envoy Witkoff and the President's son in law, Jared Kushner, were having indirectly with top Iranian diplomats, were the Americans raised at all or should they remain completely separate from the nuclear objectives?
- [20:39]
G
Yeah, I wish I had the answer to that, just out of curiosity. I don't know the answer to it, but I can say that when we were arguing to get these gentlemen home, we were very cognizant of the connection between the nuclear talks and that of the prisoner talks about. Because if the nuclear talks suddenly fail very horribly, the prisoner talks could be pulled down with it.
- [20:58]
B
Right.
- [20:58]
G
So it was very important for us to maybe just have a dotted line between the two issues, but not link them too tightly together.
- [21:05]
B
But in the view of the regime,
- [21:06]
G
they're tied, I think, more to an extent than in ours. I think we were very practical about how close those issues got together, and we wanted the flexibility to separate them if we wanted to. And the regime, I think they're much more married, close together. And so that's why I really don't know. I mean, if Witkoff and Kushner were trying to articulate an end to a nuclear issue, how closely they push it together, practically, it may not be that close, depending on where they feel they are.
- [21:33]
B
With Iranians, I mean, it's hard as a family member to not say, and I know you literally went to the White House and said, you need to talk about my brother, and these things need to be raised. But this is so thorny and complicated when human beings are the other end of these really complex nuclear issues and military issues. For the American people, what do you want them to know, Neda, about both the Americans who were held and the Iranians and the Iranian Americans who are back in Tehran right now?
- [22:11]
F
Well, you know, I'm not an analyst. I can give you a little bit about my own lived experience. You know, I was born in Iran, and I left with my family during the Revolution in 1979 with my parents and Ahmad. I am an American now, but, you know, my country of birth is still very much in my heart. And there are people in Iran who all they want is freedom and peace. And they, you know, it's tough because here I am trying to advocate for our Americans there, but I want freedom for everyone, and I want people of Iran to find liberation just as much. I do want to say that sort of, to Roger's point, what happens with our American hostages, whether they're in Iran or in Venezuela, is that they always become a hostage to other bigger, broader political issues. And I wish that envoy Witkoff had sort of, before he started engaging with the Iranians, had said, we will not talk to you until there's an unconditional release of our Americans. I'm not sure if that was asked or not, but here we are again. You know, these Americans who are innocent are again tied to this issue that's, you know, out of their control. So I want Americans to know that, you know, Kamaran and Reza are just ordinary Americans who were there sort of to take care of family, and they've been caught in this big issue, and we need to convince our government to separate them from what's going on and find a creative solution, like we did to get Ahmad and Cl Mac home, find a creative solution to bring them home.
- [24:04]
B
I wonder what you, but the two of you in particular, would say to President Trump at a moment like this.
- [24:13]
C
What I would tell the president is he has such a great record of getting Americans home from all over the world. I don't think any other president has managed to do what he has done in the first hundred days. And I'm confident that if he is aware that there are Americans sitting in even prison that he is going to instruct people around him to put that on the agenda. So I think it's important that he hears that that there are innocent Americans being held like we were as political pawns.
- [24:57]
D
I completely agree with Ahmad and I can't imagine if President Trump knew their names and knew these cases, they wouldn't be one of the priorities. I would say that it is unfortunate that they weren't priority was not given to them before. But as I said, I personally think that there will be a time.
- [25:22]
E
There's a lot going on right now. Mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air. I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's on the Media. Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how to head them off at the pass that's on the media's spirit specialty. Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [25:52]
H
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- [26:22]
D
Because all wars end with some form of diplomacy. So I would implore President Trump to make sure that part of those negotiations that will be coming up is bringing our people home.
- [26:37]
B
I'll let that be the final word from the two of you. Thank you. And thank you for your time.