Gov. Wes Moore, Ret. General Frank McKenzie, NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman

Summary

Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan – Episode Summary

Date: April 5, 2026
Host: Ed O’Keefe (Margaret Brennan off)
Guests: Ret. Gen. Frank McKenzie, Gov. Wes Moore, NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman, Archbishop Timothy Broglio, and political panelists David Sanger, Amy Walter, Jeff Mason

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Episode Overview

This week’s Face the Nation centers on rapidly evolving events in the US-Iran war—a daring rescue of a downed US airman, ongoing military and economic campaigns, domestic policy tensions, and a historic NASA lunar mission. The episode features exclusive insights from retired General Frank McKenzie on the rescue operation and future US military posture, Maryland Governor Wes Moore’s critique of national war policy and its effects at home, a spiritual perspective from Archbishop Timothy Broglio, and a political roundtable dissecting the war’s impact on public opinion and the 2026 political outlook. NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman closes out the content with a look at Artemis II’s lunar milestone.

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Key Segments, Discussion Points & Time Stamps

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1. Breaking News: Iran Rescue Mission and US-Iran Tensions

00:32 – 05:07: Segment Introduction, Operation Details

Highlights:

• A missing US Air Force weapons systems officer, shot down over Iran, is rescued alive after a two-day manhunt (00:32).
• Operation involved complex coordination: “dozens of US commandos and several dozen warplanes and helicopters.” (03:05)
• US military destroyed two C-130 planes to prevent their capture.
• Escalating violence: US bombing in Iran (including a bridge), Iranian retaliation targeting vital refineries, and missile attacks across the Gulf region.

Notable Quote:
“It takes a year to build an aircraft; it takes 200 years to build a military tradition where you don’t leave anybody behind.”
—Gen. Frank McKenzie (06:15)

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2. Interview: Retired Gen. Frank McKenzie, Former CENTCOM Commander

05:16 – 11:49

Key Discussion Points:

• Assessment of the Rescue:

  • Demonstrates the effectiveness of joint force training and rapid response.
  • “All that seemed to work out very well... You take the aircraft trade any day in a situation like this.” (06:13)
  • Sign that Iranian attempts and “broad appeal to their people” to capture the airman failed.

• Iranian Retaliatory Capabilities:

  • Iran can inflict damage but their “mass effects” capability is significantly degraded.
  • Campaign “moving effectively,” with US actions eroding Iran’s missile/drone launch abilities. (07:15)

• US Support to Kurdish Groups:

  • US arming Kurds in northern Iraq/Iran to pressure the Iranian regime, possibly as a negotiating lever.

• Reopening Strait of Hormuz:

  • US has the military power to open the Strait; current operations focus on reducing Iran’s fast-attack craft and mine stockpiles before moving ships in.
  • “All of that is underway right now...” (09:37)

• Timeline for Campaign:

  • Cautious about deadlines (“always hesitate to put a timeline on a military operation”), but underscores Trump’s resolve:
    “The Iranians would be very well served to listen to President Trump when he says he's going to hit them…” (11:49)

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3. Governor Wes Moore: Domestic Impact, War Policy, and Critique

13:08 – 23:52

Key Discussion Points:

• Economic Effects of War:

  • Energy bills have spiked, gas prices up $1+, mortgage rates up.
  • As governor, Moore cites limited state control over global events, but focuses on preventing price gouging and offering localized financial relief.
  • “Governors can't control the fact that gas prices have gone up now over a dollar because we decided to enter into another war of choice…” (13:08)

• War Policy Critique:

  • Opposes a “gas tax holiday” and calls current war a potential “forever war” akin to Afghanistan.
  • “We are very dangerously…lurching again into another forever war. And this is a forever war very similar to the one that I fought in...” (15:32)

• On Presidential Messaging:

  • Disputes White House claim that gas prices will simply drop post-war—calls for more strategic clarity.
  • "No one has articulated to us what exactly it is that we are doing or what success looks like." (16:48)

• On Military Service & Leadership:

  • Expresses pride in cadets and military service, but hopes future leaders “make decisions with them and their families in mind, not just simply decisions that...have been...foolish on their face.” (17:45)

• Structural Critique (5 Buckets Theory):

  • Moore argues the next president must assess Trump-era policies in terms of what is broken/irreparable, broken/fixable, etc.
  • “Let’s not confuse military success...with strategic success.” (20:24)

• Federal Role in Social Programs:

  • Moore dismisses federal claims states should cover daycare, Medicaid/Medicare—calls it “unfair.”
  • "No state has a budget to say, okay, well, we'll just take on health care or food insecurity." (22:40)
  • Cites legal victory over White House attempts to cut SNAP (food assistance).

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4. Spiritual Guidance in Wartime: Archbishop Timothy Broglio

25:05 – 33:44

Key Discussion Points:

• Ministry During War:
  • Chaplains' challenges: many families/dependents moved for safety; shifts in ministry focus.
• Just War Doctrine:
  • Asserts that, under just war principles, the current war with Iran “is not justified.”
  • “While there was a threat with nuclear arms, it’s compensating for a threat before the threat is actually realized…” (26:59)
• Conscience and Duty for Catholic Troops:
  • Service members can only claim conscientious objection to all wars, not a specific one.
  • “...my counsel would be to do as little harm as you can and to try and preserve innocent lives.” (27:55)
• Moral Injury:
  • Discusses the archdiocese's support for service members grappling with guilt and the burden of lethal actions.
• On Religious Rhetoric in War:
  • Reacts to increased “invoking Jesus” by DoD leaders; “It’s a little bit problematic...hard to cast this war…as something sponsored by the Lord.” (30:47)

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5. Political Panel: War Messaging, Public Sentiment & Political Fallout

34:27 – 42:06

Jeff Mason (Bloomberg):

• Critiques the late “sales pitch” for the war; public opinion is souring, especially after the jet shoot-down (34:27).
• “There is still substantial political risk because…this is a very unpopular war.”

Amy Walter (Cook Political Report):

• Notes inability of Republicans to maintain voter enthusiasm (36:05).
• Highlights approval ratings for Trump sinking to new lows as the war unfolds.

David Sanger (NY Times):

• Celebrates rescue success but cautions:
  • Increased risk with “six aircraft lost in the past couple of days.”
  • Trump’s threats to infrastructure, bridges, and power plants border on “war crimes” under Geneva Convention (37:05).
  • Questions administration’s unclear strategy regarding Iran’s nuclear program and China.
• Budget concerns: new proposal “spending so much more money on the military than domestic priorities…not a great pitch.” (38:37)
• On ouster of Army Chief of Staff Gen. Randy George:
  • Criticizes Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth for politicized personnel moves. (41:15)

Memorable Moment:
"This is spring training for politicians right now, and this is how they get their swings in."
—Amy Walter (40:51)

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6. NASA Artemis II: Historic Lunar Flyby

43:05 – 47:50

NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman:

• Mission Status:
  • Four astronauts approaching flyby of the moon’s far side; vital for data on Orion life support and spacecraft systems ahead of future lunar landings (43:37).
  • “To watch the moon grow is exciting.” (01:46; from episode intro)
• Looking Ahead:
  • Rigorous oversight and embedded NASA experts in private sector development (SpaceX/Blue Origin) to meet tight deadlines and objectives.
  • “We are not going to be passive anymore…we are driving outcomes.” (45:30)
• Budget Outlook:
  • Cites supplemental funding ($10 billion) as critical, portrays cuts as manageable if outcome-focused.
• Personal Focus:
  • “Most importantly, I'm thinking about the thermal protection systems and when these astronauts are under parachute safely in the water so we can get them back to their families.” (47:23)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

| Speaker | Quote | Timestamp | |----------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|--------------| | Gen. Frank McKenzie | "It takes a year to build an aircraft; it takes 200 years to build a military tradition where you don’t leave anybody behind." | 06:15 | | Gov. Wes Moore | "We are very dangerously… lurching again into another forever war…very similar to the one that I fought in…in Afghanistan." | 15:32 | | Archbishop Broglio | "Under the just war theory, it is not [a justified war]…it's compensating for a threat before the threat is actually realized."| 26:59 | | David Sanger | "We've lost six aircraft in the past couple of days. They can be replaced…But the fact of the matter is that that tells you there's accelerating risk here." | 37:05 | | Jared Isaacman | "We are not going to be passive anymore…we are driving outcomes." | 45:30 |

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Key Themes & Takeaways

• Military and Political Risk:

  • Swift rescue in Iran praised, but signals escalating danger and volatile US-Iran brinkmanship.
  • Panel agrees that Trump’s war is losing public support, largely driven by economic pain (rising energy costs).

• Economic Fallout:

  • The war’s domestic economic strain is acute, with state and local leaders feeling powerless over global shocks.
  • Gov. Moore advocates for state-level consumer protections and criticizes the rationale and communication of federal policy.

• War Ethics and Justification:

  • Religious leadership strongly questions the war’s justification under Catholic “just war” doctrine and the moral dilemmas facing US troops.
  • Concerns about political and religious rhetoric overmilitarizing public dialogue.

• Space as American Aspiration:

  • Amid turmoil, the Artemis II mission is held up as a pillar of US innovation and ambition—NASA driven by urgency, tight timelines, and newly assertive administration.

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Useful for Listeners Who Missed The Episode

This episode provides a thorough analysis of the latest military operations, the war’s ripple effects at home, ethical and strategic interrogations of US decisions, and a look to the future, both in terms of space exploration and the shifting terrain of American politics. The candid conversations with military, political, spiritual, and scientific leaders deliver an unvarnished look at American power—and uncertainty—in a tumultuous moment.

Transcript

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1 cubic foot garden soil, 5 bags for $10. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's, valid through 4A while supplies last selection varies by location. Soil offerings excludes Alaska and Hawaii. I'm Ed o' Keefe in Washington. And this week on FACE THE Nation, the missing crew member from a downed fighter jet in Iran is rescued in a daring mission. Plus, Artemis II makes its way around the moon, breaking overnight. A US Air Force officer in Iran rescued alive after an urgent two day manhunt involving special operations forces in a remote area of IRAN when the F15E fighter jet went down. We'll get details on the operation and President Trump's threats to escalate attacks unless Iran reopens the Strait of Hormuz. Former CENTCOM Commander retired General Kenneth Frank McKenzie joins us to break it all down. Plus, we'll hear from Maryland's Democratic Governor Wes Moore about the war's effects here at home. An analysis from our political panel on this Easter Sunday. Archbishop Timothy Broglio, who oversees Catholic chaplains in the military, shares the spiritual guidance he's offering service members during wartime.

[NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman]

Then to watch the moon grow is exciting.

[Ed O'Keefe]

That's our destination. That's where we're locked onto tomorrow. The crew of Artemis 2 makes history, becoming the first humans to see some parts of the far side of the moon. NASA Administrator Jarric Isaac gives us a mission update. It's all just ahead on FACE THE Nation. Good morning and welcome to FACE THE nation. Margaret is off today. We begin with some good news this Easter Sunday morning as that rescued officer is being flown to Kuwait to be treated for his injuries when his fighter jet got shot down Friday. President Trump posted on Truth Social in the early hours of this morning. We got him calling the operation an amazing show of bravery and talent by all as he's renewed threats to Iran in recent days of intensifying military operations if they don't negotiate. He also declared this morning that Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge day, all wrapped up in one. Senior national security correspondent Charlie Dagata has details on the mission video this morning

[CBS News National Security Correspondent Charlie Dagata]

purports to show the smoldering wreckage of two US C130 transport planes that were involved in the rescue mission on a remote base in Iran. Sources tell us American forces blew them up in order to avoid them falling into enemy hands, standard US Military practice. US Officials and White House sources describe a complex operation involving dozens of US Commandos and several dozen warplanes and helicopters in the search and eventual rescue of the missing F15 crew member. Attack helicopters and aircraft kept Iranian forces from getting anywhere near where the crewman was hiding. Armed Iranians had been scouring the mountainous terrain to find him first with the promise of a huge cash reward. But a Trump administration official tells CBS News the CIA was deeply involved, not only in the hunt, but but in a ploy to spread false information inside Iran that US Forces had already found him and were transporting him by ground out of the country. The race to find the two man F15 crew began on Friday. The pilot was rescued within hours of the fighter jet being brought down. He sustained some injuries. We've learned the second crewman is seriously wounded. According to President Trump, the downing of the jet came amid a fierce US Bombing campaign in Iran, including blowing up Iran's biggest bridge linking Tehran to key cities. Iran says more than a dozen people were killed. And Iran has continued to retaliate, striking an oil refinery in Iraq, launching strikes across the Gulf from Bahrain to Kuwait, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, and more missile barrages in Israel. Yesterday, President Trump again warned that time is running out for Iran to open up the Strait of Hormuz by tomorrow or the US Will unleash hell. A senior Iranian leader has rejected that ultimatum.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Charlie Daggett in London, thank you. We're joined now by the former head of US Central Command, retired General Frank McKenzie. General, happy Easter

[Retired General Frank McKenzie]

and the same to you, Ed.

[Ed O'Keefe]

So it took just under 48 hours to find the missing weapons systems officer after the jet they were in went down in a remote and mountainous area of southwestern Iran. The weapons officer was hiding in a mountainous crevice, we're told by a senior administration official. What's your assessment of how the search and rescue operation went?

[Retired General Frank McKenzie]

So I think I'd draw two lessons from it, Ed. First of all, the excellence of the joint force, our ability to rapidly pivot to look for a downed air crewman. We train for this endlessly. It's a part of every time we send aircrew over enemy territory. We have detailed, elaborate plans. To go get them is a very basic part of who we are as American fighting men and women. So that plan swung into action. I think it was executed pretty effectively, as always. You've got somebody on the ground, may be injured, they got to get to a position where they can hide until you can get to them. All that seemed to work out very well. And, you know, we did, in fact, lose a couple of aircraft in that mission. But I would just tell you it takes a year to build an aircraft. It takes 200 years to build a military tradition where you don't leave anybody behind. You take the aircraft trade any day in a situation like this. The other lesson, I think is a hard lesson for Iran. First of all, they were not able to find the missing air crewmen. Second, you know, they put out a broad appeal to their people to turn him in reward, asking for all kinds of leads that does not appear to have been successful. And that would. I think that's maybe a sign of disaffection. Don't know. But you can't be happy with that if you're a senior leader in Tehran this morning.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Yeah, you know, Iran's Revolutionary Guard is now claiming responsibility for attacks on petrochemical plants in the uae, Kuwait, and Bahrain. They warn its attacks against US Economic interests will intensify if attacks on civilian targets in Iran are repeated. Does Iran and its proxies retain the capacity to inflict serious damage at this point?

[Retired General Frank McKenzie]

They have the ability to inflict damage. They do not have the ability to gain mass effects. And by mass effects, I mean firing many, many dozens of rockets, missiles or drones. I think that capability has been eroded steadily since this campaign began. And frankly, at about plus 30 days into this campaign, I think if you're at Central Command, you've got to be reasonably satisfied with where you are right now. In fact, Ed, when I was the CENTCOM commander, if you had given me this situation at plus 30 days, I would have rejected it as being too optimistic by far. So we've had good effect. Our effects are going to continue. It's going to be increasingly harder for them to launch missiles and rockets. We may not get to zero for a while, and I think there's still some time ahead, but everyone realizes that. But I think we're on track here. This campaign is moving very effectively, and I believe the pace will pick up every day.

[Ed O'Keefe]

To your earlier point, the president said something interesting to Fox News this morning, revealing for the first time that the US earlier this year had sent a, quote, lot of guns to the Kurds who live in northern Iraq, northern Iran, for use by protesters. So he wanted them to use these weapons and said, you know, he's inferring now that he was sending weapons to have the Iranian people rise up. On Wednesday night, though, in his big speech clarifying what the war is all about, he said, this campaign is not about regime change. But if they are now, in fact arming protesters, what might that signal?

[Retired General Frank McKenzie]

Well, I think you want to put pressure on this regime in every way that you can. Arming Kurds certainly increases pressure on the Iranian regime. We know from history that leadership in Iran responds when existential pressure is applied to the regime. Arming the Kurds moves you a step closer toward that. Even if your ultimate aim is not regime change, getting the regime and Tehran to a place where they'll make a deal that's to our liking is going to be the inevitable byproduct of intolerable pressure that's placed on them. And I think all of these add together to do that.

[Ed O'Keefe]

You said last week a success for the White House is that the Strait of Hormuz reopens, but that vital passageway, of course, remains effectively choked off. The President this Easter morning used some, shall we say, colorful language to threaten Iran again to reopen the strait if the US Launches its own military operation in the coming days to open the strait. What's it going to take militarily to do that?

[Retired General Frank McKenzie]

Well, let me say first of all, we do have the ability to open the strait should we choose to do it. And what you're seeing now are what I would call the precursor of the initial steps in such a campaign. You want to reduce Iran's ability to fire short range rockets and missiles into the strait against warships. You want to take out their fast attack craft. Think of them as cigarette boats, large, powerful outboard engine boats that can race out and get among ships and cause direct damage that way. What we're doing is we're going after all those vessels. And that's where A10s attack aircraft, attack helicopters and other slow moving, low altitude platforms are so very effective. So we're in the process of removing those right now. At the same time, we're working to get rid of Iran's mine stockpile. The mines are very dangerous. They had thousands when the war began. I have no doubt we significantly attrited them. Now, of course, it doesn't take many mines to cause a significant blockage to world shipping. So all of that is underway right now. And you want to reduce those to a low level before you put your warships up there to actually sort of test the waters in that strait. I have no idea what Admiral Cooper's decision making process is going to be for that. But I think we're well on the way to achieving those goals.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Can the strait be reopened with an air and naval campaign, or are you going to need ground troops?

[Retired General Frank McKenzie]

I think it can be opened with an air and naval campaign, and the use of ground troops would probably be along the line of raids. And remember, a raid is an attack with a planned withdrawal where you don't plan to stay. The one exception might be Carg Island. I know the president has talked about it. I think it has a unique place in Iranian culture because one thing, if you seize it, you're holding Iranian soil. Secondly, it is the critical node through which all their oil supplies pass. By seizing it, you have the opportunity to cut that off, inflicting grievous damage on the Iranian economy, and yet with the opportunity perhaps to return it as part of a negotiation process. Further, you don't permanently damage the global economy by destroying the infrastructure. So I think Carg island is a very lucrative target. I'm sure we're looking at it hard right now. I have no idea if we're going to choose to go up there in

[Ed O'Keefe]

our last 30 seconds or so here. General, bottom line this. The president says two to three weeks is all that it's going to take. Would you agree with that, or is it going to take longer?

[Retired General Frank McKenzie]

You know, I always hesitate to put time on a, to put a timeline on a military operation like this, but I would say the Iranians would be very well served to listen to President Trump when he says he's going to hit him because he's proven that he's willing to do that. So that's the lesson I would learn from his most recent pronouncement and from actually what we've done in the war to this date. If the president says we're going to do something, we're probably going to do it. And it probably is good time for the Iranian leadership to take note of that fact.

[Ed O'Keefe]

All right, we'll leave it there. General McKenzie, happy Easter again. Thank you for spending some time with us this morning. We appreciate it. And Face the nation. We'll be back in one minute. Stay with us. On Friday, we traveled to the Maryland State House in Annapolis to speak with the Democratic governor, Wes Moore. The interview occurred shortly after we learned the US Fighter jet had been shot down over Iran and before any crew members had been rescued. Here's our conversation. We're meeting amid an ongoing war that is having a bit of an effect on the economy. Rising gas prices, inflation keeps creeping up. It was A decent jobs report on Friday, but mortgage rates are climbing and mortgage applications are down. You observe this as a governor, and you know that residents in your state are feeling the economic pinch. What can you do as a governor to address all this?

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

Well, we are feeling it. And it is true that, you know, a governor does not control the fact that energy prices have spiked over the past year. You know, my mom's energy bill in March of last year was $140. It's now creeping close to $500. Governors don't have full control over that. Governors can't control the fact that gas prices have gone up now over a dollar because we decided to enter into another war of choice that governors cannot control the fact that we are continuing to watch homes become more difficult and more expensive. But the thing we can do as governors is we can make sure that even though I don't control the price of food, that I can make sure that we're not doing price manipulation and that these big corporations aren't gouging our customers, as we're doing here in the state of Maryland. You know, that I can make sure that even though we are watching energy prices rise, that we can hold these data center companies accountable and also making sure we're giving a rebate and giving something back to the people of the state of Maryland, which we're doing here.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Even your approval rating appears to have taken a hit in recent days, at least in one survey. And among those who disapproved, they cited raising taxes and fees. There's been some conversation in this state, at least, about possibly waiving the gas tax for a little while. It is one of the higher ones in the country. You say governors can't do much about the gas price. You could conceivably establish a gas price holiday. No.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah. I mean, the best thing that we could do to be able to address gas prices is by stop fighting foreign wars and stop watching gas prices jump up over a dollar.

[Ed O'Keefe]

So you agree with the president's theory that it'll go back down once the war is over?

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

No, I disagree because I think the president still does not have a full articulation as to why gas prices are going up in the first place or what's going to be necessary or required to be able to bring them down. You know, I think about what we've done here in Maryland to address that, where we've actually given the middle class in Maryland a tax cut, because I do believe that we need to give the middle class a little bit of extra relief. Now, and we ask the wealthiest of Marylanders to be able to invest a little bit more so we can do things like having the rising, you know, increases in reading and math scores like we're seeing in Maryland, and the fact that Maryland now has amongst the fastest drops in violent crime anywhere in the United States of America. And we ask the wealthiest of Marylanders to be able to do more to

[Ed O'Keefe]

participate in the so gas tax holidays off the table then, in your view?

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah, I think we need to stop fighting these forever wars. And, you know, and I think about the fact that we are. We are very dangerously. We're lurching again into another forever war. And this is a forever war that is very similar to the one that I fought in, where I led soldiers with the 82nd Airborne Division in Afghanistan. And I know that the United States was in Afghanistan for 20 years, that it cost this country over two and a half trillion dollars, that we lost over 2,400American lives. And we did it because we said we wanted to change the Taliban. And 20 years later, you know, who's in charge of Afghanistan? The Taliban. And so I feel like we are lurching into another one of these forever wars that we're asking the American people to pay for. But we have still. But the President of the United States and the Commander in Chief has still yet to articulate what exactly it is

[Ed O'Keefe]

that we're doing as we meet here. There are search and rescue operations underway now inside Iran because a US Fighter jet has been shot down in recent days. The President suggested this operation will be done in two to three weeks. That doesn't seem to sit with you.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

This is sitting horribly with me because I'm thinking about these families. I'm thinking about the families of our service members who right now who are afraid to pick up the phone because they're afraid to hear what is on the other end of the line. That we had a President of the United States talk about the military success that we have seen thus far while still without acknowledging the fact of the long road ahead. And no one understands or has been articulated to us what exactly it is that we are doing or what success looks like. And so I'm praying for these families. But also what I'm praying for is some clarity from the White House.

[Ed O'Keefe]

You're giving three commencement addresses this season to members of the class of 2026, and one of them is at the military prep school that you attended. A bunch of those students may be heading into the services right away. What would be your message to them?

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

I'm so proud of the fact that I'm going to give the commencement at a school that helped to save my life. You know, I got sent there because people always say, why did you choose to go to military school? I say, no one chooses to go to military school. I was sent because I was angry, because I was frustrated, because I had a difficult childhood. And that place helped to save my life. And I'm proud to go back and talk to these cadets. I also know that there will be some of those cadets who will then choose to join the military. And what I'm going to tell them is I'm proud of them. I'm proud of them for choosing a life of service. I'm proud of them for being able to fight for our country and fight for our democracy. But I am also praying for them, and I'm praying for the leadership of this country, that they will make decisions with them and their families in mind and not just simply make decisions that I think have been just wrongheaded and foolish on their face.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Part of the reason I wanted to speak with you is in another recent interview, you floated a theory of what the next president's going to have to figure out and how to organize what President Trump has done in, as you said, into five distinct buckets. What's broken and irreparable, what's broken and can be fixed. What's broken and needs to be fixed differently. What survives but needs to be broken and what survives and needs to be sustained. You've given this some thought, so I wanted to walk you through some specific things and sort of wonder what buckets they would fall into.

[Retired General Frank McKenzie]

Okay.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Where would you put Iran?

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

Well, I would actually put Iran into a larger bucket. And that is how the sixth bucket. Well, how we think about foreign wars.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Okay, Right.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

Because, you know, I think about Donald Trump ran making three promises, right, that he was going to bring prices down, that he was going to release the Epstein files, and that he was not going to get us involved in foreign wars. And the American people voted for that. And it's strike one, strike two, strike three. Because on each and every one of those things that he promised, he did not make happen. And so when I talk about how the United States military can and should be used as someone who has served, as someone who's fought for this country, I know there is. There are times when the United States military, the world's greatest military, can and should be used. And let's be clear, let's not confuse military success with the United States military with Strategic success.

[Ed O'Keefe]

So thinking ahead, Iran, is it broken and irreparable? Does it survive, need to be sustained? Does it broken, need to be fixed differently? The relationship with Iran.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

I think that the relationship with Iran right now is not just broken, but I'm not sure if there's been an articulation of what the path forward is. And when we're talking about Iran, you're not just talking about the relationship with Iran. You're talking about Iran's relationship with other countries. You're talking about a larger foreign policy, you know, complication. And by the way, we have decided to start this war when we're also doing two separate things that we've essentially obliterated what we have in terms of our soft power, usaid, how America does its foreign aid. And we're doing it while the Department of Homeland Security, whose job it is to keep the homeland safe, is shut down. So this is the, frankly, the just the foolishness in the way that we're approaching issues of war and peace that I think we've got to be able to address.

[Ed O'Keefe]

What bucket would you put the U.S. s relationship with Israel in?

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

Well, I think the U.S. relationship with Israel is an important relationship, but I think with any important relationship, there needs to be accountability. You know, I look at the fact that we're fighting this war in Iran, and one of the things that there's three things you always hope for as a soldier, right? That war should always be the last resort, that the second piece should always be that you are clear about your mission and clear about your end game. And the third is that you built an international coalition. We haven't done any of those things with this war that we are waging in Iran.

[Ed O'Keefe]

In the midst of all this, the president in recent days told a gathering at the White House that in his view, because of the 50 states, quote, it's not possible for us to take care of daycare, Medicaid, Medicare, all these individual things. He argues the federal government shouldn't have to pay for those programs because, quote, we have to take care of one. Military protection.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

That's nonsense. And that's not what any of us want. We don't want to be fighting foreign wars while you're taking away our health care.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Could a state even pay for Medicaid and Medicare daycare without federal assistance?

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

So many of the decisions that this White House is making, they are making with a clear understanding that no state has a budget to say, okay, well, we'll just take on health care or we'll just take on food. Insecurity. We saw that happen last year when the President of the United States broke the law in order to cut snap. In fact, we sued them and we won and we beat him in court on this.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Sounds like he's gonna try again though.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

And he did try again. He actually tried to appeal the fact, you know, through a temper tantrum because he felt cuz the judges told him actually, no, you need to pay for food assistance for people. And what we ended up doing is in Maryland, I actually took $63 million out of our fiscal responsibility fund, which is a fund that is made up of capital gains taxes. And I said, well, I'm not going to let the people of my state go hungry because Washington is having a food fight. And so we made sure that SNAP and SNAP benefits were not going to be cut for the people of Maryland. But it is a deeply unfair ask to ask states and or governors. Cause we do things that the federal government has never done. We actually balance our budgets. And it is an unfair ask to ask us to take on what should be a joint responsibility because the federal government has decided to stop doing its job.

[Ed O'Keefe]

We have to leave it there, Governor, but thank you for taking the time. Thank you. Happy Easter.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

Happy Easter.

[Ed O'Keefe]

We'll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation. Stay with us.

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[Archbishop Timothy Broglio]

Carvana.

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Pick up. Fees may apply. It is not hard to destroy a college. Last season, the podcast Campus Files brought you stories of fraternity drug rings, stolen body parts, campus cults, and more.

[Ed O'Keefe]

And now Campus Files is back for another season.

[NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman]

There's a guy screaming into his phone.

[CBS News Correspondent]

He's like, I just saw Charlie Kirk

[Ed O'Keefe]

get assassinated right in front of me.

[CBS News Correspondent]

Every week is a new episode and a new story.

[Ed O'Keefe]

It was so chaotic, it's almost like

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

a university under siege.

[Commercial Announcer]

Listen to and follow Campus Files, available now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed O'Keefe]

On Thursday, we spoke with Archbishop Timothy Broglio, the Archdiocese for the Military Services. He oversees more than 200 priests serving as Catholic chaplains in the U.S. military on bases and the battlefield. We began by asking about the situation in the Middle east and the spiritual guidance the church is providing to service members who seek it.

[Archbishop Timothy Broglio]

We're dealing with a situation in the Middle east now, for example, where the chaplains are still in place, but many of the dependents have been moved to Europe or back to the United States. So they find themselves in a situation where the faithful to whom they were ministering are either gone or they're in hotels. So that changes the whole reality. And then there are others, of course, who are with the troops that are. Have been moved in. And of course, their ministry, in a certain sense, is a little more. A little more regular.

[Ed O'Keefe]

But.

[Archbishop Timothy Broglio]

But it's still a challenge because of the situation.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Given that you're a priest ministering to people in the military, I imagine much of your work, much of your focus is built around St. Augustine and the idea of just war, or when is war justified? The idea that it's only waged as a necessity and in order that peace may be obtained. And more broadly, perhaps, that the response is proportional. Correct. That's to gloss over pretty deep teachings, but essentially that's the root of it. I know that after the president, for example, threatened to take Greenland by force, you had said in an interview it doesn't seem acceptable to invade a friendly nation, and that such rhetoric tarnishes the images of the United States. You said it would be an illegal and immoral order to kill deliberately the survivors aboard an alleged Venezuelan drug boat if they don't post an immediate lethal threat to our armed forces. So given what's going on in the Middle East, I'm curious, is the war with Iran justified?

[Archbishop Timothy Broglio]

I would think under the just war theory, it is not. Because while there was a threat with nuclear arms, it's compensating for a threat before the threat is actually realized. And I think there I would line myself up with Pope Leo, who has been urging for negotiation. I realize also that you could say, well, with whom are you going to negotiate? And that. That is, that is a problem. But in the meantime, lives are being lost, both there and also among our, our troops. So it's, it is a. It is a concern.

[Ed O'Keefe]

And so if you're hearing from a service member who says, if your teachings, if your guidance is this is not justified, what am I to do as a Catholic who's in the service?

[Archbishop Timothy Broglio]

And that's a very good question, because obviously the way conscientious objection is set up in the United States military, you cannot object to a specific war or a specific action. You can only object to. I'm opposed to war. So I would think it depends on where you are in the chain of command. Obviously, the Marine who's given an order, he's not in a position really to resist that order. He has to obey, unless it's clearly immoral. And then he would probably have to speak to his chaplain, to his chain of command. The question might be, would generals or admirals have space to perhaps say, can we look at this a different way? But having spoken to some of them, too, they're also in the same dilemma. So I guess my counsel would be to do as little harm as you can and to try and preserve innocent lives.

[Ed O'Keefe]

And you're approaching this from a moral perspective. This isn't a partisan thing. This isn't ideological for you or geopolitical. You're a moral leader. So obviously, someone in the service who grapples with this will seek guidance from you and your brother chaplains. How often do they come to you talking about how to seek forgiveness, perhaps, for being part of this?

[Archbishop Timothy Broglio]

That is actually something we've done a lot of work on as an archdiocese, the whole question of moral injury. So, I mean, even if you obey a legitimate command, but you have to kill someone, that's going to leave some traces in your heart or on your soul. And so there we've tried to provide structures and help to people in that situation to try and help them heal from those situations. And that's not a question of making a judgment. It's just a question of healing the individual who finds himself in that or herself in that situation.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Yeah, you obviously, and your brother priests are on Pentagon property taking orders, obviously through the military chain of command. There's been a lot of conversation in recent weeks, separate from the actual war itself, regarding the rhetoric of, say, the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, who openly invokes Jesus repeatedly when talking about the war with Iran especially, and has prayed openly from the Pentagon press room for blessings upon American service members. Obviously his right to pray in public and however he sees fit. But what do you make of that sort of focus and sort of trying to cast this war as something that perhaps Jesus would justify?

[Archbishop Timothy Broglio]

It's a little bit problematic in the sense that the Lord Jesus certainly brought a message of peace. And also, I think war is always a last resort. Now, you know, they may have information that led them to think that that was the only choice they had. I'm not making a judgment about that because I really don't know. But I do think that it's hard to cast this war, you know, as something that would be sponsored by the Lord.

[Ed O'Keefe]

And that's certainly something the Pope has suggested himself, right? Not, not commenting on the secretary, but commenting on war generally. That this idea that, you know, if you're praying for the success of the war, what is it he said recently? He said, God does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them. I mean, that would seem to put a lot of what's going on right now in conflict.

[Archbishop Timothy Broglio]

It certainly would. And I turn back to just to Paul vi, who made very few trips outside of Italy. But when he did come to the un, he made that dramatic appeal, which I saw live on television as a little kid. You know, Jean plus la guerre. Jamais plus la guerre. Never again war. Never again war. And yet that was in 1965, I think now, so many years later, we're still in this situation. So I think I would be in, I think Pope Leo would definitely support saying that, you know, we have to find a situation where men and women can sit down and find avenues of

[Ed O'Keefe]

peace in our remaining moments. You obviously minister primarily to Catholic service members, but this is a holy season, Passover underway, Ramadan recently having ended. And ultimately on the battlefield, it doesn't matter to your brother chaplains whether they're Catholic or Protestant or Jewish. What's the interfaith dialogue like these days, especially at a time of war?

[Archbishop Timothy Broglio]

I think it's very healthy in the sense that there is a genuine desire to collaborate. Actually, I know most of the rabbis in the services because we frequently travel at the same time. For us, Christmas and Easter for them, Passover in Hanukkah. And they're fewer in number, so I certainly get to meet them. But there is a genuine spirit of, of collaboration, and there's a desire to facilitate the work of chaplains, and I think that's a very, it's a very healthy thing.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Well, thank you for being here on this Easter weekend, and thank you, obviously, for your service not only to the country, but to the faith. We appreciate you spending some time with us.

[Archbishop Timothy Broglio]

Thank you. Thank you very much for the opportunity.

[Ed O'Keefe]

And we'll be back in a moment. We turn now to our political panel. David Sanger is the White House and national security correspondent for the New York Times and the author of of New Cold wars paperback copies coming out on Tuesday. Should check that out. Amy Walter is the publisher and editor in chief of the Cook Political Report with Amy Walter. And Jeff Mason is a Washington correspondent at Bloomberg, making his Face the Nation debut. So, Jeff, at least under my rules, you get the first question, this past week, the White House tried selling the war with Iran as a good thing. Then we had this fighter jet shot down. Both personnel on board have now been rescued. How's that sales pitch landing with the American public?

[CBS News Correspondent]

Well, number one, I think it's right to call it a sales pitch and it's a late sales pitch because the president did not give an address like that at the beginning of the war, which most presidents would do before a military conflict. Number two, in that address on Wednesday night, he really used sales pitchy language talking about how long previous wars have been, how this is not going to be that long, going back to World War I and World War II. But then the political risk to those remarks and his entire sort of strategy rhetorically skyrocketed after an airplane was shot down in Iran. So certainly the fact that they have found that crewman is a huge political win for him. But there is still substantial political risk because to your question, this is a very unpopular war. There is still some support within his base for it, but polling shows that Americans writ large do not.

[Ed O'Keefe]

So this is still a timeline, the two to three week conversation more rooted and perhaps economic considerations and military goals, at least based on your report, he

[CBS News Correspondent]

is under significant pressure because of the gasoline prices being up. It also has taken away, speaking of rhetoric, a talking point that he's been very happy to use for the last year and a half, saying that he's responsible for having brought prices down. Now he is clearly responsible for having brought prices up. And that's something that Americans will think about when they go to the polls.

[Ed O'Keefe]

So, Amy, this was supposed to be the year of affordability for the White House and Republicans. It's not really. At least that's not the focus right now. Our polling, for example, 84% of Republicans are still with him on this war, but nearly 70% of independents disapprove of military action. This is all, I mean, it's April. It's all churning up, churning towards trouble in November, right?

[Commercial Announcer]

Yes. Now look, it is only April. So we still have time for this to move its way through the process. And it is true that the president now is looking at his lowest approval ratings of his second term this week. And a lot of that is driven by the fact that he's lost the sort of strong support from Republicans. I don't think Republicans have left him. I just think that they are feeling very dispirited. And that is what gets Republicans the most nervous, is intensity and enthusiasm. Democrats are fired up. Republicans are not. If that continues as we move through this electoral season. That's when things get really bad for the Republican Party in November.

[Ed O'Keefe]

David, this rescue operation successful, elaborate and was executed in under 48 hours. But what do you make of it? And what we've heard from the President this morning, a bunch of language we can't repeat on broadcast television.

[David Sanger]

So first we should all celebrate the fact that they've got both these crewmen back. It's a miracle, and it's an equal miracle that you could put hundreds of troops in to get them out and no casualties there. We've lost six aircraft in the past couple of days. They can be replaced or repaired. But the fact of the matter is that that tells you there's accelerating risk here. And if you took the president's threat this morning to go after bridges and go after the electric grid. We'll set aside for a moment, Ed, the fact that these would probably be war crimes under the Geneva Convention. The White House will argue it wasn't because it also feeds the milit. If you set that aside, the fact remains that the president still finds himself in a box here. He's trying to open up the strait. That was a problem that got created after the war started. He has not really explained how he's going to deal with the nuclear material and your bomb grade material. He said that was a reason to go in this past week. He said, oh, I don't really care about it that much. It's buried deep.

[Retired General Frank McKenzie]

We'll watch it on satellite.

[David Sanger]

Well, we were watching it on satellite before the war started.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Right.

[David Sanger]

And I know he says there's been regime change, but we haven't seen much regime change here. We have just seen the change of personnel. So he's got a lot of things to go accomplish if he's going to get out of this and be able to claim to those voters that he got something out of this.

[Commercial Announcer]

And more to that point, the budget that he put forward this week is spending so much more money on the military than on domestic priorities. And that goes trillion. That's right. That cuts against everything we've heard saying we need to make life more affordable. Our number one priority is to make life more affordable for Americans. To release a budget that increases money only for the military and then cuts domestic programs is not a great pitch.

[Ed O'Keefe]

And he made that astounding comment that that because the federal government should only be focused on military protection, the state should pay for Medicare, Medicaid and daycare. And it was caught on camera, probably coming to campaign ads near US Soon,

[CBS News Correspondent]

I was just going to say, you know how both Republicans and Democrats hear a quote that they think, oh, that's going to be the lead of my next campaign ad. That's one for Democrats. And he risks. He's not just losing some Dems, certainly, and independents going into this election, but he's testing the tolerance of his base. I was at CPAC a little over a week ago, and there were a lot of grassroots supporters there who said, we still support President Trump, we still support this war, but there were certainly some who started to question it. And we've also seen quite a bit of division at the leader level of MAGA and Republicans, and that messaging sinks

[Ed O'Keefe]

down to the base as well in our remaining moments. Amy, I want to start with you. You heard Governor Moore more than happy to criticize the war effort, but failed to provide any specifics on what he'd do differently. And that while Republicans are in a bit of a pickle this year, Democrats aren't much like.

[Commercial Announcer]

This is what's really fascinating. This 2028 election cycle that we are very close to bumping into, believe it or not, is going to be the first election in 10 years where Donald Trump is not the centerpiece of it or where candidates would do well to not make Donald Trump the centerpiece of it. I think Americans are looking for, for both parties, an idea of who these part they stand for, what they're gonna do for me, rather than how they're gonna fit into a world that Trump has really dominated politically for the last.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Yeah, I gave him credit for the idea. I was intrigued by that buckets theory that he had, but he clearly couldn't fill it well. Yeah, and that's part of the problem.

[Commercial Announcer]

This is what. And this is we're at this place and you know, because you're gonna be at a lot of these games, this is spring training for politicians right now, and this is how they get their

[Ed O'Keefe]

swings in in our remaining minute. David, I'd be remiss if we didn't mention today the ouster of Army Chief of Staff General Randy George, essentially pushed out by Pete Hegseth. What does removing someone like him do to the officer ranks and to the rank and file overall?

[David Sanger]

So I think what surprised people is the degree to which Secretary Hegseth has reached way down into the system. And the split with Randy George was in part over Hegseth's insistence that they not promote two black and two women candidates for one star general. Very rare. You see anybody get into that. Just one last quick point on your interesting interview with Governor Moore. What I think Democrats have to get their heads around now is what are they going to say about Iran? Can we leave nuclear material there? What are they going to say about the priorities of a president who has not emphasized China, which we have been told is the existential political and economic and technological competitor. And we haven't heard that from them yet.

[Ed O'Keefe]

We have not. We will wait to hear from that from them about that in the coming months. Thank you all for being here. We have to go to the moon next, so. Well, kind of. We'll explain in a moment. Stay with us. Ever feel like your brain just won't click? Onnit Alpha Brain is a daily supplement engineered to support memory, focus and mental speed. Made with science backed ingredients, Onnit Alpha Brain helps you lock in, tune out distractions and stay sharp. See what your brain can really do. Visit onnit.com and shop Alpha Brain to unlock your next level. That's o n n I-t.com want to

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

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[Ed O'Keefe]

This morning, the Artemis II crew is closer to the moon than ever before. Here's a look at the exterior of the Orion capsule this morning. The four astronauts inside are prepping a six hour flyby around the far side of the moon tomorrow for an update. We go now to NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman, who is inside Houston's Mission Control. Administrator, thank you so much for being here with us. The four astronauts on board are roughly halfway through their mission. Now what in your view is the most critical moment of the next 24 to 48 hours?

[NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman]

Well, I would say. And first, good morning. Happy Easter, Ed. The primary objective right now for this phase of the mission is continuing to gather data from the ECLSS system, the life support system on the Orion spacecraft. This is the first time we've ever had humans on board the Orion spacecraft. We want to gather as much data as we possibly can for that. Of course, there's various science experiments, there's lunar observations. But learning as much as we can about Orion is critically important because Artemis 3 is a year away. That's where we're going to test the same spacecraft with our lunar landers, followed up in 2028 by Artemis IV, where we're going to use this spacecraft, transfer crew to the landers and put American astronauts back on the surface of the moon.

[Ed O'Keefe]

You make a good point. This is a test mission and it's testing as much the vessel that they're in as much as what they're doing looking for. But they are going to have to spend some time on Monday essentially looking out the windows and looking for parts of the moon that we essentially have not really seen before. What specifically are they looking for?

[NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman]

Well, I would have to say after a 250,000 mile journey away from Earth to the far side of the moon, it would be pretty hard to keep them away from those windows. But they absolutely have observation responsibilities on that. They have a series of different cameras. They're going to get data from that for sure. They've actually had an opportunity for three and a half years to train for this mission to work with our scientists on the information they would like to gather most about the far side of the moon. But all of this comes together to inform subsequent missions like Artemis 3, but most importantly now, Artemis 4, which is where we're going to actually get those astronauts back on the surface. Yeah.

[Ed O'Keefe]

To your point, you want to land one and possibly two missions on the moon just two years from now. NASA hired SpaceX and Blue Origin to build the lunar landers that will deliver astronauts to the surface of the moon. What are you doing to ensure that at least one of those two companies is going to be ready to do that?

[NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman]

Well, I'll tell you, we're doing a lot of things different over the last couple months, right? I mean, President Trump gave me a national space policy that called for America's return to the moon with frequency, to establish an enduring presence, to build the moon base and do other exciting things like nuclear power and propulsion. And we got $10 billion worth of resources out of the one big beautiful bill, the working family tax Cut It Act. Now we are actually going to work. We are taking NASA subject matter experts and we are embedding them across the supply chain. Every prime contractor, subcontractor, every component on the critical path from the rocket itself to the landers, to the suits that astronauts will need to wear on the surface of the moon. And we are driving outcomes. We are not going to be passive anymore. We're not going to let budgets, you know, get over budget or behind schedule. Not when there's so much at stake when it comes to America's return to the moon. So we are driving outcomes and that certainly includes the, the lunar landers.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Quickly then, how does a budget, proposed budget cut of more than 20% potentially affect these plans.

[NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman]

Yeah. So I certainly support President Trump and, and his 2027 budget request. Look, we have a 20, we have 26 appropriations, we have $10 billion in supplemental funding that came out of the President Trump's signature legislation. The working, I mean, this is the biggest in supplemental investment in NASA since the Kennedy era. These resources are the only reason we can accelerate production to get to the moon, to add a mission in 27, which is Artemis 3, to build the moon base and do all the other things like launching the first interplanetary nuclear powered spacecraft in 2028 that's going to go past Mars, release a bunch of copters and a whole lot of other science missions. I think the, the American public and the taxpayers should be judging NASA based on outcomes and not how quickly we can spend money every year in 20

[Ed O'Keefe]

seconds or less as they pass on the other side of the moon tomorrow for about 40 minutes. What are you going to be thinking about as the astronauts do that?

[NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman]

Well, I got to tell you, people have been asking me questions about the, you know, the loss of comms as we go around the moon. That is something we're very used to in spaceflight. Mission control is used to that. Astronauts are used to that as they go through training. So less about the loss of comms on the far side of the moon. I'm always going to be thinking about the life support systems on the vehicle, but because it's a test mission. But I'll tell you, most importantly, I'm thinking about the thermal protection systems and when these astronauts are under parachute safely in the water so we can get them back to their families.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Administrator Jared Isaacman in Houston, thank you so much for joining us on this Easter Sunday. We appreciate it. And that is it for us today. Thank you for watching. Margaret will be back next Sunday. Until then, for FACE THE nation, I'm Ed Okey. Today's guests were former CENTCOM commander retired General General Frank MacKenzie, Maryland Democratic Governor Wes Moore, Archbishop of the Military Services Timothy Broglio, New York Times White House and national security correspondent David Sanger Cook Political Report publisher and Editor in Chief Amy Walter Bloomberg, Washington correspondent Jeff Mason and NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman. The senior executive producer of Face the Nation is Mary Hagard Laird. The executive producer of Face the Nation is Anne Hsu. This broadcast was directed by Shelly Schwartz. Face THE Nation originates from CBS News in Washington. For more Face THE Nation, we're [e-mail] and on YouTube. We're also rebroadcast on our CBS News 247 streaming network at 12:30 and 2:00pm on Sundays. It's available through our apps CBS News and Paramount. There's a lot going on right now. Mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air.

[David Sanger]

I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's on the Media.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us

[Ed O'Keefe]

here and maybe how to head them

[David Sanger]

off at the pass that's on the Media special. Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed O'Keefe]

The greatest to ever play the game. Return to finish what they started.

[Retired General Frank McKenzie]

Welcome to Survivor 50.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

I wanted one more shot to play the game that I fell in love

[Retired General Frank McKenzie]

with 25 years ago.

[David Sanger]

I want to win against the best of the best.

[Ed O'Keefe]

I chickened out at the final tribal.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

Season 50.

[Ed O'Keefe]

It's an honor.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

Light your torch.

[David Sanger]

I've got some unfailished business.

[Ed O'Keefe]

Be part of history. I have more to play for this time bigger than ever.

[Maryland Governor Wes Moore]

Survivor 50 new CBS Wednesday at 8,

[Ed O'Keefe]

7 Central and streaming on Paramount.

[David Sanger]

Plus.