María Corina Machado, Rep. Mike McCaul, Gary Cohn

Summary

Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan

Episode Date: February 1, 2026
Guests: María Corina Machado, Rep. Mike McCaul, Gary Cohn, Mayors Eileen Higgins, Quinton Lucas, David Holt, Mark Freeman

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Episode Overview

This episode addresses several pressing national and international issues:

• Venezuelan Political Transition: An exclusive interview with Venezuelan opposition leader and Nobel Peace Prize winner María Corina Machado, focusing on the aftermath of the US capture of Nicolás Maduro and the push for democratic transition.
• US Immigration Enforcement: Rep. Michael McCaul discusses the ongoing controversy surrounding ICE tactics, government shutdown, and the congressional fight over DHS funding.
• US Economic Update: Gary Cohn, former Trump economic advisor, analyzes the current state of the economy, recent layoffs, and the implications of Trump's policies and Federal Reserve nominee.
• Local vs. Federal Authority on Immigration: A bipartisan panel of mayors discuss the challenges localities face amid intensifying federal immigration enforcement, detention center disputes, and the expiration of TPS for Haitian migrants.

The episode interweaves domestic and international perspectives on democracy, rule of law, and the balance between security and humanity.

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Key Segments and Insights

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1. Venezuela's Tumultuous Road to Democracy

Guest: María Corina Machado, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, Venezuelan opposition leader
Timestamps: 03:30–15:16

Discussion Points

• Ongoing Pressure on Regime:

  • Despite President Trump's claim of "no plans for further military action," Machado argues US pressure is still effective.
  • “Everything Delsey Rodriguez is currently doing is because she's complying with instructions she's getting from the United States…” (Machado, 03:30)

• Lack of Direct Negotiations:

  • Maria Corina Machado's party (which won the most recent election but was barred from assuming power) currently has no direct contact with acting President Delsey Rodriguez.
  • Past offers for a negotiated transition were rejected, leading to “the most cruel, brutal repression wave.” (04:15)

• Repression and Political Prisoners:

  • Over 1,000 political prisoners on January 1; still over 700 remain. None from the military have been released. (06:00)

• Views on Privatization and Legitimacy:

  • Machado rejects the National Assembly’s legitimacy, calling its reforms illegal but notes positive movement away from socialism and state control. Emphasizes the need for rule of law and a return of Venezuelan professional talent. (06:40–07:55)
  • “We don't want socialism. We don't want the state owning every single facility or production center. We want private property.” (Machado, 07:12)

• US Policy Shifts and Sanctions:

  • Trump administration lifting some sanctions, reopening air travel. Machado sees these as positive signals but stresses conditions are still unsafe for returns. (07:55–08:56)

• Exile, Safety, and the Path Forward:

  • Machado recognizes personal risk if she returns to Venezuela: “If they had captured me before I left, I probably would have been disappeared or worse … Right now I don't think they would dare to kill me because of the United States presence and pressure.” (09:04)
  • Emphasizes the existential nature of Venezuela's fight for freedom and the global repercussions: “Once Venezuela is free, then the Cuban regime will follow, the Nicaraguan regime will follow, even the Iranian regime … This has huge consequences for the Western Hemisphere, for the United States.” (14:17)

• Future Political Role:

  • Willing to run for president and insists on fair, democratic elections. (11:32)
  • “I will be president when the time comes, but it doesn't matter. That should be decided in elections by the Venezuelan people.” (11:32)

• Dedication of Nobel Peace Prize:

  • Machado explains her decision to dedicate the prize to Trump as a recognition of US efforts. (13:52)

Notable Quotes

• "The transition is unstoppable." (Machado, 05:12)
• "What we want, what the Venezuelan people have voted and struggled and fight for... and what the United States government and President Trump also desires." (Machado, 05:25)
• "We, the Venezuelan people, are truly grateful for what he has done and we're confident in what he will do in the, in the days, weeks and months to come." (Machado, 13:52)
• “Venezuela will be free. And I know I will host you soon in a wonderful country that is very grateful to yours.” (Machado, 15:13)

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2. US Government Shutdown & ICE Enforcement

Guest: Rep. Michael McCaul (R-TX)
Timestamps: 15:16–22:55

Discussion Points

• Partial Government Shutdown:

  • House expected to resolve funding standoff; McCaul predicts early resolution, blames Democrats for current impasse. (15:28–15:48)

• ICE and Minneapolis Protests:

  • Ongoing nationwide anger after a controversial ICE shooting in Minneapolis; widespread calls for DHS reform.
  • McCaul insists new ICE leadership (Tom Homan) will pivot to targeted, de-escalated law enforcement instead of “roving patrols.” (16:59–17:57)
  • "Tom Holman is a consummate professional. He's going to go back to the core mission of ICE and that's targeted law enforcement operations, not roving the streets, causing chaos." (McCaul, 17:17)

• Warrantless Arrests & Collateral Detentions:

  • McCaul defends administrative warrants, not supporting home entries without warrants. Collateral detentions (arresting non-target individuals found during operations) remain policy. (18:07–19:06)

• Due Process & Policy Changes:

  • Concerns about broad definitions of “flight risk” under current policies.
  • Republicans focus on deporting violent criminals; emphasize excessive force as the real liability. (19:27–20:26)

• Children and Vulnerable Populations in Detention:

  • Case of 5-year-old Lian Ramos highlights children traumatized by detention and the need for congressional guardrails on DHS. (20:54–21:54)

• Prospects for Reform:

  • McCaul says reform is coming and recognizes reputational damage from excessive use of force.
  • "The mission... is to get violent felons out of the country... What I worry about is turning a winning issue into a liability." (McCaul, 22:01)

Notable Quotes

• "Those excessive use of forces cases need to stop. And I think Tom Homan will de escalate the situation as I've been calling for for weeks." (McCaul, 22:55)
• "The American people support the deportation of criminal aliens, violent offenders. What they don't support is excessive use of force." (McCaul, 20:01)

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3. Economic Update and Trump’s Fed Nominee

Guest: Gary Cohn, IBM Vice Chairman, former Trump economic adviser
Timestamps: 23:59–32:05

Discussion Points

• State of the US Economy:

  • Growth rate at 5% (high for US); inflation rates have come down, unemployment around 4%–4.5%.
  • However, wealth disparity persists: top earners thrive, average Americans struggle with affordability. (24:18–25:31)

• Waves of Corporate Layoffs:

  • Layoffs at Amazon, MasterCard, UPS, Dow, Home Depot explained by “right-sizing” after pandemic hiring sprees and increased input costs—tariffs, labor, commodities. (26:08–27:45)

• Trump’s Tariff Policy Claims:

  • Cohn pushes back on the White House's claim that tariffs solely drive economic success. Tariffs increase input costs, challenging companies trying to avoid consumer price hikes. (27:11–27:45)

• Consumer-Focused Proposals:

  • Evaluates new White House proposals: credit card rate caps, limiting investors buying homes, $2,000 direct checks.
  • Skeptical of efficacy—credit caps could push risky borrowers out of the market; notes role of institutionals in stabilizing housing post-2008. (28:32–29:28)
  • "If you put a cap on rates that can be charged, what do companies do? They actually stop lending to the riskiest part of the population." (Cohn, 28:35)

• Kevin Warsh as Federal Reserve Nominee:

  • Highlights Warsh’s experience during the 2008 crisis and expectation of a return to Fed tradition: focus on interest rates, gradual reduction of Fed balance sheet, regulatory strength with market-friendly intent. (29:51–31:31)
  • "Kevin has been a staunch advocate for independence of the Fed." (Cohn, 31:48)

• Market Reaction:

  • Positive response to Warsh nomination: dollar up, silver and gold down. (31:31)

• Executive Pressure on the Fed:

  • President Trump joked about suing Warsh if interest rates don't come down. Cohn laughs it off, asserting independence. (31:31–31:48)

Notable Quotes

• “Affordability is going to be the issue between now and the midterm elections.” (Cohn, 25:27)
• "Those ideas probably don't solve the problem … credit caps could have the opposite effect [of helping consumers]." (Cohn, 28:35)
• "I think he [Warsh] is actually the completely right choice in this period of time." (Cohn, 29:51)
• “The markets spoke … they're real time feedback indicators.” (Cohn, 31:31)

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4. Mayors on Immigration Tension and Local Impact

Panelists:

• Mark Freeman (Mesa, AZ, R)
• David Holt (Oklahoma City, R)
• Quinton Lucas (Kansas City, D)
• Eileen Higgins (Miami, D)
  Timestamps: 32:05–45:25

Discussion Points

• Cooperation with ICE:

  • Freeman describes limited, civil infraction-based cooperation; lack of local jail leads to partnership with ICE but with community involvement and outreach to build trust. (33:19–34:39)

• Federal vs. Local Authority:

  • Holt emphasizes federal supremacy (Supremacy Clause) and the delicate balance mayors must strike between local safety and compliance with federal enforcement. Calls for federal restraint and recall of "normal" enforcement tactics, as the tactics seen in Minneapolis are "not the cutting edge techniques" of modern policing. (34:56–39:19)
  • “We need federal government who will use discretion and restraint with that power ... This has mostly worked for the last 250 years.” (Holt, 36:11)

• Detention Facilities & Local Pushback:

  • Lucas explains resistance to federal plans for mass detention centers in city-zoned warehouses; asserts local zoning authority and humane treatment obligations; expects legal battles on federal/local jurisdiction. (39:43–41:57)
  • “Converting a gigantic distribution facility next to railroad tracks ... into a warehouse for 10,000 people ... is not right. ... I would submit to you, most American cities [agree].” (Lucas, 40:14)

• TPS Expiration and Humanitarian Crisis:

  • Higgins discusses the imminent expiration of Temporary Protected Status (TPS) for Haitians in Miami, potentially displacing thousands of workers in healthcare and driving families into hiding.
  • Highlights the chilling impact of ICE tactics, including children avoiding school and community fear. (42:11–45:25)
  • "It is inhumane, it is cruel. I'm a Catholic. I can barely grapple with the lack of humanity around all this." (Higgins, 43:25)
  • “20% of TPS recipients with Haitian heritage work in health care. ... Suddenly they become, yes, unnecessarily, Haiti is not safe. Venezuela is not safe. TPS should be extended immediately.” (Higgins, 45:00)

Notable Quotes

• “I think we're now in the part of the cycle where corporate America is very comfortable about replacing people … so they're downsizing their headcount from hoarding to a more naturalized level.” (Cohn, 26:08)
• "We're not really arguing about whether this country should enforce immigration ... what we are arguing about is police tactics and strategies and managing engagement with residents on the street." (Holt, 39:19)
• "We want to make sure that if there will be detention, if there will be enforcement, it is consistent with constitutional principles, long term." (Lucas, 41:44)

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Memorable Moments

• Machado’s commitment and gratitude: Emotional recounting of her harrowing escape and dedication of her Nobel Prize to President Trump (13:52).
• McCaul’s direct call for ICE reform: Acknowledgment that excessive use of force risks turning a "winning issue" into a political liability (22:01).
• Mayors expressing both the struggle and creativity at the local level: Blend of cultural engagement with minority communities and legal tactics to resist or manage federal overreach (33:19–45:25).
• Gary Cohn’s candid economic skepticism: Direct response to White House economic spin, acknowledgement of the pain of average Americans, and technical insights on credit and housing policy (28:35).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Guest(s) | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------|--------------| | Venezuela and Machado Interview | María Corina Machado | 03:30–15:16 | | Immigration Enforcement & Shutdown | Rep. Michael McCaul | 15:16–22:55 | | Economic Analysis & Fed Nominee | Gary Cohn | 23:59–32:05 | | Mayors Panel on Immigration & Local Policy | Higgins, Lucas, Holt, Freeman | 32:05–45:25 |

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Summary

This episode traverses the interconnected crises of democracy abroad, immigration and law enforcement at home, and economic uncertainty for the American working class. Guests candidly weigh the stakes—political, practical, and moral—conveying both the complexity and urgency of the moment. It’s an essential listen for anyone seeking to understand the current crossroads in US political, economic, and social life.

Transcript

[Gary Cohn]

Hey, Sal.

[Margaret Brennan]

Hank, what's going on?

[Gary Cohn]

We haven't worked a case in years.

[Quinton Lucas]

I just bought my car at Carvana

[Gary Cohn]

and it was so easy.

[Margaret Brennan]

Too easy.

[Michael McCaul]

Think something's up?

[Gary Cohn]

You tell me.

[Quinton Lucas]

They got thousands of options, found a

[Margaret Brennan]

great car at a great price, and

[Gary Cohn]

it got delivered the next day.

[Margaret Brennan]

It sounds like Carvana just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank.

[Gary Cohn]

Yeah, you're right. Case closed.

[Margaret Brennan]

Buy your car today on Carvana.

[Eileen Higgins]

Delivery fees may apply.

[Margaret Brennan]

I'm Margaret Brendan in Washington. And this week on Face THE nation, anger at ICE persists across the country. Plus our interview with Venezuelan opposition leader and Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Corinna Machado. After a whirlwind of meetings in Washington, Machado is projecting optimism about her country's future, even as her own future remains murky with the party she defeated in a nationwide election still holding power with the support of President Trump.

[Michael McCaul]

I think she's a very fine person, but I think I have to say at the same time, the current leadership is doing a very good job.

[Margaret Brennan]

We'll talk to her exclusively. Meanwhile, the debate over ICE immigration enforcement drives more protests across the country and sparks a fight in Congress over funding for the Department of Homeland Security. We'll talk to Republican Congressman Michael McCaul, plus, a bipartisan conversation with four of America's mayors on how they're striking a balance between local priorities and federal authority. Finally, President Trump's top economic advisor in his first term, Gary Cohn, will join us. We'll ask about the president's new pick to lead the Federal Reserve. It's all just ahead on FACE THE Nation. Good morning, and welcome to FACE THE nation. Washington is waking up to another government shutdown, this time a partial one and hopefully short, as the House is expected to start debate tomorrow on a funding package and a short term extension of Homeland Security funding. We'll get to all of that in just a moment, but we want to begin with the Trump administration's actions here in the Western Hemisphere. It was just four weeks ago that the US Military captured Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro. Since then, the US has continued striking alleged drug boats and seizing oil tankers, part of Trump's plan to coerce what remains of Maduro's socialist government to make changes. Yesterday, U.S. ambassador Laura Dogu arrived in Caracas to oversee U.S. efforts. But calls to release political prisoners and end repression persist. And there is a mounting push for a transition to elected leadership in Venezuela. Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Karina Machado is in Washington, meeting with lawmakers and Trump officials to urge support for another nationwide election. Her party won the last election, but was blocked by Maduro from taking office. We spoke with Machado and began by asking her whether she thinks the pressure is off the current regime after President Trump said he had no plans for further military action inside the country.

[Maria Corina Machado]

I do not think that the pressure is being taken away. Actually, everything Delsey Rodriguez is currently doing is because she's complying with instructions she's getting from the United States, and important steps are being taken. So I think that the message has been delivered, and so far, we're seeing the results in the actions taken by the regime and also in the mood and energy that it's growing within the Venezuelan population.

[Margaret Brennan]

Are you or is anyone in your movement in touch with Delsey Rodriguez, who's the acting president of Venezuela now?

[Maria Corina Machado]

No, not directly, no.

[Margaret Brennan]

Why not?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Well, we had offered, since we won the election by a landslide, that we were willing to. To agree in the terms of a negotiated transition. They refused. And the country, they decided to unleash the most cruel, brutal repression wave. As you know, there have been thousands of prisoners, and they had not demonstrated any willingness to stop this cruelty until January 3rd arrived and happened when it happened. So it sent a clear message to them, and they're starting to realize that things have changed for good. So eventually they might understand, and even very soon, that it is in their best interest to accept that the transition

[Margaret Brennan]

is unstoppable, a transition that you hope involves a democratic election at some point. Did Secretary Rubio give you any kind of timeline for the American plans?

[Maria Corina Machado]

What I do have, very clear, is that the end result is the same. What we want, what the Venezuelan people have voted and struggled and fight for with huge cost and sacrifice, and what the United States government and President Trump also desires.

[Margaret Brennan]

But for the people in Venezuela still living under that regime, what has actually changed for them? And do they have the patience to wait for what you're talking about, which is basically just hoping that the Rodriguez government does what Donald Trump tells them to do?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Well, it's more than hoping. We're seeing the results, the actions. Are we there yet? Not. And I think it's a good point, what you mentioned. Patience. How much patience can the Venezuelan people have? Because, I mean, There were over 1,000 political prisoners on January 1. Still, there are over 700. Not one military prisoner, political prisoner has been liberated.

[Margaret Brennan]

Well, President Trump has talked a lot about Venezuela's oil and its natural resources. Do you support the law that was just passed that allows the Venezuelan government to privatize the oil industry well, first

[Maria Corina Machado]

of all, I do not recognize the national assembly as a legitimate power. It has not been recognized by the Venezuelan people, not even by the American,

[Margaret Brennan]

by the US Government, not legally, but effectively.

[Maria Corina Machado]

Yeah, but whatever comes from that national assembly has no legality because this is an illegitimate power. So certainly these so called reforms introduce positive signs in terms of what we, the Venezuelan people want in the future. We don't want socialism. We don't want the state owning every single facility or production center. We want private property. But that requires rule of law, long term guarantees for foreign investment, for local investment. But one thing that is the most important of all, in my opinion, you need to have people, talent, specialized professional, willing to work and develop these enterprises. What happened with the Venezuelan specialized talent? It was forced to flee the country. Almost a third of our population. And these are people that are working all around the world.

[Margaret Brennan]

President Trump just said on camera that United States is going to start peeling back some of these sanctions and that Americans can travel back to Venezuela. He's lifted the air restrictions. Well, I think, is it safe to go?

[Maria Corina Machado]

I think it is important to take steps. I think these are signals directed to several actors. First and foremost to the regime saying this is going to move forward, there's no way back. And the regime knows that no American citizen or Venezuelan citizens is going to go back to a country that's still under the power of Maduro regime and the cartel. That's not going to happen. But these kinds of actions I think give the correct signals in terms that this is going to move ahead. And I do trust the President in what he has said regarding how much he cares about the Venezuelan people. That's something that I think was quite significant in our conversation.

[Margaret Brennan]

If you return to Venezuela now, would you be imprisoned? And has the American government said that they will protect you, they will guarantee your safety?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Well, you know, things are changing very fast in Venezuela. If they had captured me before I left, I probably would have been disappeared or worse. Right now I don't think they would dare to kill me because of the United States presence and pressure and actions. I don't know how much possibility of moving I would have inside Venezuela. Certainly they would be very afraid because the regime knows the connection, the intimate connection we have. You know, the Venezuelan people and the leadership that won the election, the legitimate government.

[Margaret Brennan]

Well, you won that election along with Edo Gonzalez at the top of that ticket. Even the Trump administration recognized it. Secretary Rubio testified that to Congress. But then the President of the United States stood up there and said to the Public that even though you had won that election, you didn't have the public support. And I wonder if you can understand why they made that calculation.

[Maria Corina Machado]

I will concentrate in what he told me in a private conversation, looking each other in the eyes, and I truly believe he understands the nature of this regime. They all know that Delsey Rodriguez is a communist that no one can trust. Not even, you know, the people surrounding her right now does. I mean, these are individuals that have strong ties with Russia, Iran, China, Cuba. I mean, she is doing what she's doing because the United States is putting enough pressure for them to understand that she has no other option. If that pressure were taken away, she would turn around and go back to where her loyalty is with these regimes that are the enemies of America. So. So no one is naive here. I think she's doing part of the dirty job of dismantling her own regime and in Torrej. But there's a limit to it. For what you said before, you know, people have to be taken account of. They have to be involved.

[Margaret Brennan]

What role would you want in a future Venezuelan government? Because even President Trump says you may have a role in the future. Would you run for president?

[Maria Corina Machado]

I will be president when the time comes, but it doesn't matter. That should be decided in elections by the Venezuelan people. I wasn't allowed to run in the last election, as we mentioned before, because Maduro was afraid to run in against me, and he thought Edmundo was not a threat because nobody knew who he was. And in less than three months, we managed to put the whole country supporting him, because this is a matter of freedom. I mean, this is a spiritual fight, an existential fight for Venezuela, unlike other diasporas. And I want to stress this. Our people around the world, here in the United States, want to go back, go back and live in a country where they're safe, but most of all where there's a future in freedom and democracy. So if we want those hundreds of thousands and millions in Venezuelan to go back, we need to have a secure and precise timeline through which this transition will advance.

[Margaret Brennan]

And we don't know one yet, not yet from the Trump administration.

[Maria Corina Machado]

Not yet, but I'm sure there is. And the Secretary of State and many other members of the government, by instructions of the president, a clear willingness to move as fast as possible within, you know, control and order, and understanding the complexity of such a criminal structure, but understanding that the voice of the people is what brings legitimacy to this process.

[Margaret Brennan]

Before I let you go, you know, the last time we spoke, you had made this daring covert escape by land, sea and air from Venezuela to go and receive that Nobel Peace Prize in Oslo. You've kept those details private, you said, for safety reasons. But you did say you broke your back. You talked about being lost at sea, that you feared that you might lose your life at one point. After all of that, why did you give your Nobel Peace Prize to President Trump after you'd already dedicated it to him?

[Maria Corina Machado]

Look, I think this is a matter of justice and it's a matter of what's in the superior interest of our country. We, the Venezuelan people, are truly grateful for what he has done and we're confident in what he will do in the, in the days, weeks and months to come.

[Margaret Brennan]

You believe he supports you?

[Maria Corina Machado]

I do. Because it has to do first and foremost with you, the American people, and how dismantling this criminal structure not only saves millions of Venezuelan lives, it also saves lives in the Americas. And once Venezuela is free, then the Cuban regime will follow, the Nicaraguan regime will follow, even the Iranian regime that has turned Venezuela into its safe haven and satellite only three hours away from Florida. I mean, this has huge consequences for the Western Hemisphere, for the United States. So I think this is a win win situation for investment, for business opportunity, for security reasons, and certainly for migration, tensions and crisis. So Venezuela will be free. And I know I will host you soon in a wonderful country that is very grateful to yours.

[Margaret Brennan]

Maria Carina Machado. Thank you very much for your time today. We'll be right back. We're joined now by Texas Republican Congressman Michael McCaul. Good to have you here.

[Michael McCaul]

Thanks for having me.

[Margaret Brennan]

So we're in this partial government shutdown presently, but Speaker Johnson said on another network this morning he expects it may end by Tuesday. Some of your Republican colleagues, though, have said that they have conditions for getting on board. Republicans have a one seat majority at this point. Is he overconfident? He has your vote?

[Michael McCaul]

Well, he has my vote. I mean, we voted for this last time. The Democrats, most of them voted for this. For the Democrats to turn around and vote against it on Tuesday just to shut down the federal government makes no sense to me at all. I think the speaker, the trick is getting it through the Rules Committee. And I believe that the speaker would not do that if he didn't have the votes.

[Margaret Brennan]

Well, you know why we're in this situation and why those Democrats are now objecting, right? Because of what happened a week ago out in Minneapolis when Alex Preddy this.

[Michael McCaul]

But the DHS portion is taken out of this. The DH portion is taken out of that appropriation right.

[Margaret Brennan]

Just now a two week continuing resolution

[Michael McCaul]

to have reforms to us.

[Margaret Brennan]

So let's talk about that because the Trump administration has changed personnel. They put Tom Homan now out in Minneapolis. The borders are they took out of that position. Greg Avino, who had been running border patrol. The Justice Department has also said it's opened a civil rights investigation into why federal agents shot Preddy. Secretary Noem now says the FBI is taking over the probe into what happened. Are your concerns about what happened in Minneapolis satisfied?

[Michael McCaul]

I've called for a full investigation. DOJ has opened that investigation. Civil Rights Division would have jurisdiction over this. Look, I mean Bevino went in there with these roving patrols. He escalated the situation. He escalated the tension between the public and law enforcement. He put his agents in a position they should never have been put in. They have no training for crowd control. Their job is to go in and remove criminal aliens, violent felons from the United States and get them out of here. And so, you know, Tom Holman is a consummate professional. He's been doing this for a long time. I've known him for a long time. He's going to go back to the core mission of ICE and that's targeted law enforcement operations, not roving the streets, causing chaos.

[Margaret Brennan]

But we haven't heard him say or the administration say that they're actually going to change tactics to do what you just said.

[Michael McCaul]

Well, I believe in his press conference he did talk about de escalation. Yes, he talked about going back to targeted, you know, law enforcement operations.

[Margaret Brennan]

Does that mean ending warrantless arrests?

[Michael McCaul]

Is that how you administrative warrants have been around for a long time to sign by immigration judge, order of removal to go in, tap around prisoners under ICE detainers, that will continue the idea of administrative order being warrant being used to break into a home, that has not been the practice of ice. And I don't think Mr. Homan's going to going to continue that.

[Margaret Brennan]

Well, we heard actually you're right. Warrantless home entries are unconstitutional. Fourth Amendment protects all people regardless of citizenship from unreasonable search and seizures. But, and we've seen the documentation from the Trump administration, their policy does allow for these so called collateral arrests where ICE officers carry out warrantless arrests of unauthorized immigrants who are not the targets, but people who are encountered during an operation and they might be trying to leave the scene. Should the premise there be changed? Is that too broad?

[Michael McCaul]

Look, the target is a target. The target's the violent offender. You know, there are plenty of those to Spend over time and resources on when they do arrest the target. If there are illegal aliens with the target, they are caught in the net. And because they're in the country illegally, they are removed. And I don't think that practice will change.

[Margaret Brennan]

But the robot changed though, because prior administrations interpreted flight risk as not potentially showing up for a court appointment. The Trump administration interpreted it as the guy might leave the scene. And they justified some of these warrantless arrests and encounters under that. Is that too broad? Because that's part of this roving group that you're talking about.

[Michael McCaul]

Correct. And due process applies to all persons under the Constitution. It would apply to them as well. If they're caught in the net, though, they have to be dealt with. Look, this is going in front of the courts right now and Democrats want

[Margaret Brennan]

to argue about this. They want changes.

[Michael McCaul]

Yeah. And the courts are throwing out a lot of these cases actually. And you're in violations with US citizens being arrested unlawfully. So the American people support the deportation of criminal aliens, violent offenders. What they don't support is excessive use of force. And I believe Bevino crossed the line. I think the President was correct in telling him to get out of there. I would advise.

[Margaret Brennan]

Does he have a job?

[Michael McCaul]

Well, he's going back to his prior station.

[Margaret Brennan]

Right.

[Michael McCaul]

But I would advise the Secretary and the President to involve Tom Homan and he should have been there from day one and to utilize his expertise and his talent.

[Margaret Brennan]

Why was he cut out by Secretary Noem?

[Michael McCaul]

I don't know. All the inner workings within DHS on that. I can tell you though, he is the consummate professional when it comes to ICE removal operations.

[Margaret Brennan]

A federal judge in Texas has ordered that this five year old boy, Lian Ramos, be released along with his father from ICE custody. He had been detained by federal agents out in Minneapolis. His picture went viral. The judge who ordered the release specifically referenced concern about traumatizing children. He is not the only kid being detained under current policies. And with this particular case, the administration claimed something that was not backed up in court. Right. They claim the father was trying to flee and that he was here illegally. He was here under a policy honored by the last administration. They used an app on a phone to claim asylum. That was a legal process. So now they're out of this detention facility. But doesn't that raise to you concern that there are children who are getting caught in the crosshairs? That there does need to be, perhaps from Congress, some guardrails here being put on homeland Security and what they're doing,

[Michael McCaul]

I think that is part of the reform process we'll be looking at. I think there are, but you have

[Margaret Brennan]

to force it or do you trust DHS to do it?

[Michael McCaul]

I, we, we can and we can pass the laws. I think the problem is situations like these give a black eye to actually law enforcement officers are just trying to do their jobs. And look, the mission, I think is to get violent felons out of the country. Most people support that. It's a president. The number one issue the president won the election on. What I worry about is turning a winning issue into a liability. I still believe the American people want us to remove dangerous, violent criminals from the streets, but they don't want to see these images of children and people being dragged out of their cars and US Citizens. Those excessive use of forces cases need to stop. And I think Tom Homan will de escalate the situation as I've been calling for for weeks.

[Margaret Brennan]

Congresswoman McCaul, thank you for your time today.

[Michael McCaul]

Thanks for having me.

[Margaret Brennan]

We'll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation. The Justice Department on Friday released more than 3 million additional pages related to the investigation into convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, claiming it has now released all the files required by Congress in a law signed by President Trump in November. But the authors of that law, Democrats and one Republican on the House Judiciary Committee, say the administration has not complied and has only released half of the estimated pages, including 200,000 that were redacted or withheld and on Saturday submitted a formal inquiry to review all of the files. We'll be right back with former Trump economic adviser Gary Cohn. Welcome back to FACE THE nation. For an update now on the economy, we're joined by Gary Cohn, who was the top economic adviser to President Trump during his first term in office. He is now the vice chairman of IBM. Good to have you back here.

[Gary Cohn]

Thanks for having me.

[Margaret Brennan]

So the president has this editorial in the Wall Street Journal arguing all the economic success that we are seeing right now is due to his tariff policies. The legality of that of some of those tariffs are being debated right now before the Supreme Court. How factual do you assess his argument to be?

[Gary Cohn]

Well, I think we need to take a step back. The economy is quite strong right now on top line growth. So if you look at gdp, gross domestic product, which is the overall output of the US economy, we're trending about 5% right now, which is a very high growth rate in the United States, much higher than the baseline we've had for the last decade. So if you look at that number alone, and that's a good number to look at. Things are going well. The inflation rate has come down to the high 2%. It's still higher than we'd like it. And the unemployment rate is ticking up, but it's still in a reasonable place, around 4, 4.5%. So overall, the economy is quite strong right now. That said, we've got an interesting economy right now. We've got this massive wealth effect at the top end. And we've got hardworking Americans who are having a very difficult time paying their bills and they're suffering in this economy. And I think the White House acknowledge that they're suffering. I think part of the reason the President wrote the op ed was to try and get out in front of people who are having a hard time paying their bills and meeting their expenses. The White House is going on the offensive. The President is going to spend time out on the road talking about affordability. Affordability is going to be the issue.

[Margaret Brennan]

That's your hope?

[Gary Cohn]

Well, I think affordability will be the issue between now and the midterm elections.

[Margaret Brennan]

Right. And we know the chief of staff is that she wants the President out there talking about the economy. But you just mentioned what consumers are feeling. The White House says people will just feel better after tax time. You wrote that original tax law that was then just renewed and extended by Congress. But you are seeing companies like Amazon announce it's cutting 16,000 corporate jobs. MasterCard cutting 4% of its 35,000 person workforce ups 30,000 jobs gone. Dow 4,500, Home Depot 800. If everything's trending in a positive direction, what is going on there?

[Gary Cohn]

So we did see over 60,000 additional layoffs come out of companies last week during the earnings season. Typically when companies talk about managing expenses, companies today have two basic things going on. Number one, companies hoarded labor during and after Covid. When we were working from home and people were remote, productivity went down and companies were worried about getting the workloads done. So most companies end up hiring additional people or not letting anyone go. So workforce has ballooned. And I think we're now in the part of the cycle where corporate America is very comfortable about replacing people. They're very comfortable about hiring people. So they're downsizing their headcount from hoarding to a more naturalized level. I think a lot of those numbers that we saw this week being announced were companies rightsizing themselves. In addition to that, we have seen input costs for companies go up quite dramatically, whether it be labor cost, commodity cost, or Tariffs, as we agree, someone has to pay the tariffs. So as companies are trying to balance

[Margaret Brennan]

their equation, there's no cost to it, it's going to hurt a company.

[Gary Cohn]

But he also says that there's $200 billion plus sitting in the account of money they've collected. So the money's being paid by someone. So the corporations are paying the money. They're trying to figure out how to deal with input costs going up, tariffs going off, cost of labor going up and not really having the ability to raise prices to the consumer because we've seen how tough it is for a lot of Americans to afford things today. So companies are walking that fine line between absorbing input costs and not being able to raise prices.

[Margaret Brennan]

So the White House, as you said, they are aware they have a problem, even if they don't want to explicitly say they have a problem politically because of that lower end consumer. But when you look, one of the ideas being floated by the President is a one year cap on credit card rates at 10% and somehow getting Congress to compel that. He signed an executive order to limit institutional investors from buying single family homes. Then he's floated to this idea of $2,000 checks which may or may not require Congress. What do you think about these consumer focused parts of the plan? Are they viable?

[Gary Cohn]

Well look, I think it's admirable that they're understanding that people are cash trapped today. They're stuck with not enough disposable income. So I think the White House is throwing out ideas that will put more disposable income back in consumers hands.

[Margaret Brennan]

These are not ideas we would have endorsed.

[Gary Cohn]

Those ideas probably don't solve the problem. In fact, the credit card rates probably have the opposite effect. So credit card companies charge people a risk adjusted rate to lend them money. Obviously worse credits. People that have the highest probability of defaulting pay the highest rates. If you put a cap on rates that can be charged, what do companies do? They actually stop lending to the riskiest part of the population. And so their consumers will lose purchasing power, not gain purchasing power. You know, on the housing side, the one thing I remind people is the institutional accumulation of housing happened after the 08 financial crisis when we had a massive glut of houses in the United States. Prices were plummeting. So the financial markets stepped in and they put a support underneath the housing market. And we can't forget how important these financial players are in times of stress.

[Margaret Brennan]

Well, we should also say you worked for Goldman Sachs and were president there for a very long time, including during that financial crisis. But, but let's not relitigate some of that. But talk about someone you got to know during that time and that was Kevin Warsh, who was a Fed governor and is now President Trump's pick to be the next Chairman of the Federal Reserve. He's called for all sorts of reforms of the Fed. What do you expect from him in office?

[Gary Cohn]

So look, I think we're very fortunate to have Kevin to be the nominee. Kevin has a unique background coming in as the chair. As you said, he was a member of the Fed board before he was there during the 2008 financial crisis. He was instrumental in that crisis. What I mean by that is when banks were going through stress and we saw a lot of bank mergers, we saw a lot of assets being moved around the system. Kevin was the point person at the Fed. He was involved in every one of those discussions. And I truly believe without Kevin's expertise and without Kevin being there, we would not have come out of the 2008 crisis as well as we have. So he's very highly qualified. He's going to take the Fed back to its traditional sort of norms. I think Kevin's going to stay out of a lot of the non financial issues. He's going to be involved obviously in setting interest rate policy. There is a pressure right now for interest rates to go lower. I think that he will probably follow through on the 1 to 2 cuts this year. Kevin also has a view that the Fed should not have the large balance sheet. The Fed went in and bought enormous amount of securities, quantitative housing. I think that Kevin will reverse that. I think he will be looking for the Fed to sell down their balance sheet. And on the regulatory front, I think Kevin is a traditionalist believing that we need strong regulation in the United States. But it has to be regulation that works and allows market to grow and allows the consumer to have access to capital. So I think he is actually the completely right choice in this period of time. And on Friday when his nomination came out, the markets spoke and I think you have to look at what the markets tell you because they're real time feedback indicators. So we saw the dollar strengthened by about 1%. We saw silver drop by 25%, we saw gold drop by 10%.

[Margaret Brennan]

But the President also spoke last night at a dinner and said he's going to sue Warsh if he doesn't lower interest rates. You take that as a joke?

[Gary Cohn]

Yes, I take it as a joke. Look, I think the President completely understands the independence of the Fed. Kevin has been a staunch Advocate for independence of the Fed.

[Margaret Brennan]

Well, he's got a confirmation process to go through, and we will see if Thom Tillis request for the Department of Justice's probe into the current Fed chair stands in the way of actually getting him through. But we'll track that. Gary Cohn, always good to have you here.

[Gary Cohn]

Thanks for having me.

[Margaret Brennan]

We'll be right back. We spoke with a bipartisan group of mayors about how local governments can find common ground on solving some of the top problems facing Americans today, particularly affordability concerns like housing costs and energy prices. But for all four mayors, Democrats Eileen Higgins of Miami, Quinton Lucas of Kansas City, plus Republicans David Holt of Oklahoma City, and Mark Freeman of Mesa, Arizona, it was clear that immigration has been near top of mind following the deadly shootings of protesters in Minneapolis and the tensions between federal and local governments nationwide. Here's part of our conversation. Mayor Freeman, we checked 4% of the population in Arizona is undocumented, according to Pew. As I understand it, you have limited cooperation with ice, and you hand people over to federal authorities if they have an immigration infraction, but your local authorities picked him up for something else. Right. That's what, in effect, that policy means. Why does that work for you when it doesn't work in places like Minneapolis and you have this high degree of tension and the standoff?

[Mark Freeman]

Well, personally, I think that's a great question, but I think there's some misinterpretation, excuse me, of it, because in Mesa, we have an agreement with ice, but however, it's only on infractions that may be a civil infraction. And so we don't have a jail in Mesa, Arizona, so we go to a holding facility. And we've been working with ICE for. Since 2009 with an agreement that we found very successful with. But more importantly, what we're doing in Mesa, I've taken. I've elevated it to the next level. We have Dias de Muertos, the Day of the Dead that we have with our Hispanic Latino community. We have El Grico, who's the liberation of Spain from Mexico. So we have these great experiences in Mesa, Arizona, in our downtown area, in cooperation with our Latino Hispanic area. And I meet with our pastors as well to make sure that everything is going well on their end. Mm.

[Margaret Brennan]

And you don't feel the tension at the local level right now, like the debate we're having as a country?

[Michael McCaul]

No, I don't feel.

[Margaret Brennan]

Are people talking about it?

[Mark Freeman]

Yeah, they talk about it in our community, but I'm meeting with the People who are actually affected by it, and they find comfort in knowing that our city stands ready to support them.

[Margaret Brennan]

Mayor Holt, I want to ask you about your city, but also in this leadership role you have, like, how are you counseling mayors to go through this right now? This is a real pressure at the federal level to sometimes change local laws or state laws.

[David Holt]

Well, I don't know. A few observations in reaction to that. I mean, first, it's really important to point out that we have enforced immigration laws in this country for over a century. ICE has been around for two decades. There was even a previous Trump administration that. And in none of those times did you see this level of chaos in our cities. I understand in the previous Trump administration, there was controversy about things at the border, but I'm talking about all the 1,000 miles from the border in places like Minneapolis. So we can look back to previous eras of normality and appreciate that there are ways to competently enforce immigration laws in this country. And I think that's what we're kind of asking for, is that sort of pivot back to a new strategy. That may be an old strategy. And I think we all accept that this administration prioritizes a higher level of enforcement. But what we're seeing in the conflicts in the streets of Minneapolis is just obviously unacceptable. And we're still sort of reeling from what happened last Saturday. And, you know, we're generally encouraged that the administration seems to be exploring that pivot. You know, and, of course, we understand it takes time to sort of get the right personnel in place and make the policies. So, I mean, we're giving them that space. But what was happening in Minneapolis that kind of culminated in the second death of a protester last Saturday is obviously something that we would all fear to happen in our cities, and we feared that that kind of chaos was starting to potentially creep around the country. I think the other thing I want to observe, though, is that mayors are certainly caught in a little bit of an impossible situation, because we take these roles, with our chief obligation being the protection of our residents. And we're even given a police department, people with guns, to aid us in that pursuit. But there is a thing called the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution. And when the federal government and federal law enforcement comes into your city, we are fully subservient to that in the eyes of the law. And we also believe in the rule of law. So we get caught kind of in the middle of these tensions. And we need federal government who will use discretion and restraint with that power. And that has mostly worked for the last 250 years. So I think we just need to remind everybody that this is possible. And I think you see mayors maybe messaging some of that to our residents, some of it to Congress, some of it to the administration, just trying to find a happy medium for everybody where we can coexist with all of these inherent tensions that, of course, have always existed and we have largely been able to manage.

[Margaret Brennan]

But that's why I think it's so interesting to talk to you all as mayors, because you actually have to deal with these people day to day and secure their safety, as you said, but also, you know, remain compliant. In Oklahoma, it looks like the highway patrol works with ICE to conduct stings. So you do have some working together of.

[Quinton Lucas]

Yeah.

[David Holt]

I mean, it's a state agency, the Oklahoma Highway. That is not our police department.

[Margaret Brennan]

Right. But when you see that working together, is it smooth? Are there tensions now because of what just happened in the past few weeks? Like, are people questioning whether these policies should stay?

[David Holt]

Well, I mean, let me differentiate and make it clear.

[Margaret Brennan]

Do people look at Minneapolis and say that could happen here is what I'm asking.

[David Holt]

Well, I'm sure every mayor in America here in D.C. was feeling that way. And, and again, not because any of us think that there shouldn't be immigration enforcement. This is not the question. It's just how is it managed? I mean, we have some mayor colleagues that were former police chiefs, for example, have really great expertise in law enforcement. We're all amateurs. Right. But these are people who did this for a living. And they're telling us, they look at these videos and they see police tactics that haven't been utilized anywhere in 30 years in a local law enforcement agency, that these are, these are not the cutting edge techniques of law enforcement that we have been using our police departments have been using for the last quarter century to build trust with our communities. And so that's what's. It's not the. We're not really arguing about whether this country should enforce immigration.

[Margaret Brennan]

Right.

[David Holt]

Everybody believes that. I mean, not everybody, but the broad swath of the American public does. But what we are arguing about is police tactics and strategies and managing engagement with residents on the street. You know, we have built so much trust in these last few years and worked really hard at that. And obviously this, this whole situation has threatened to erode that trust.

[Margaret Brennan]

Yeah. Mayor Lucas, I want to come to you on this idea of how the federal government is trying to implement immigration in your city, because we checked and I believe you have a similar experience out in Oklahoma, too, where the federal government's looking to turn industrial warehouses into large scale detention facilities for up to 10,000 people. That has caused some friction. In Kansas City, you have tried to change things. You passed a city ordinance to combat it. Can you actually stop the federal government from doing it?

[Quinton Lucas]

You know, I think there's substantial question to it. The people of Kansas City have asked us to make sure, though, that we stand up for, in this situation, simple zoning, that we make sure that we share what is the viewpoint of the people of Kansas City. There absolutely is a supremacy clause. There's also a 10th amendment. And so in our view, that is, which is reserved to the states, which includes local zoning, local police powers, particularly where private contractors are in the transaction with the city, we have the opportunity to engage. There's been a long fight near us in Leavenworth, Kansas, you know it, for a prison and a military base, where they've also managed to reject the placement of a federal facility working through a private enterprise. So we wanted to make clear not only that people largely didn't want a 10,000 person detention facility near them, but also that they have to go through things like zoning, a special use permit. It sounds in some way boring. It is core to what government is. But I think taking us from perhaps the political issue, there's the simple one, which is in all of our communities, we want to make sure people are treated humanely. Converting a gigantic distribution facility next to railroad tracks and all of that into a warehouse for 10,000 people, for which it was never designed, is not right. And it is fundamentally something that is inhumane and inhospitable, at least to the senses that we have in Kansas City, and I would submit to you, most American cities. So whether it is converting giant distribution facilities into mass detention warehouses, whether it's Alligator, Alcatraz in Florida or anything under the sun, I think you are seeing communities say, we want to make sure that if there will be detention, if there will be enforcement, it is consistent with constitutional principles, long term.

[Margaret Brennan]

Can you stop it? Do you know yet?

[Quinton Lucas]

You know, I think that probably that would be a federal district court determination. I have seen there have been many zoning battles over the years about what can be done. I think the fact that you mainly have private enterprises that are looking to build these, then lease to the government creates some level of a question.

[Margaret Brennan]

And before we leave, the topic of immigration, Mayor Higgins, nearly 7% of Florida is undocumented. According to Pew in Miami, the police cooperate with ice. But you, during your campaign, were very critical of that decision to cooperate. Can you change the policy without the governor being on board?

[Eileen Higgins]

We were. The governor issued a requirement that local municipalities cooperate with ice. And many municipalities, including the city of Miami before I became mayor, signed that agreement. It is very difficult to unwind. It would take a vote of our city commission to do so. So obviously as mayor, I intend to comply with the law. And so what we have done in our 1500 person police department is we have trained three individuals should ICE call that are able to answer that call and work with them? Obviously we're going to comply with the law, but we are not going to help beyond that. Because in my community in South Florida, we are the most affected. ICE and its tactics have been in my community for over a year. They have been causing great fear and terror in our residents. I cannot go anywhere without meeting someone. My brother, my uncle, my sister, Alligator, Alcatraz. No sabemos donde esta. We don't know where they have been taken. And that has been going on for months. It is inhumane, it is cruel. I'm a Catholic. I can barely grapple with the lack of humanity around all this. And then what we have very differently from any other community in Miami Dade county, which we are part of, approximately 15% of our population has TPS.

[Margaret Brennan]

So you're talking temporary protected status.

[Eileen Higgins]

Temporary protected status. You're talking about between 250 and 300,000 individuals that would that have slowly but surely lost status, become overnight illegals in the eyes of the federal government. And this enforcement in our Nicaraguan community, our Hondurano community, our Venezuelan community has driven many people into hiding. Children are not going to school and obviously ICE is deporting them. Tuesday night we face a very, very dire situation. Our Haitian community loses its access to TPS at midnight. 20% of TPS recipients with Haitian heritage work in health care. So on Wednesday we are talking about nursing homes, home health care aides, hospitals, nurses, physician aides. All of them are going to be out of a job when they wake

[Margaret Brennan]

up on Wednesday morning because their legal pathway and status is going to be revoked.

[Eileen Higgins]

And suddenly they become, yes, unnecessarily, Haiti is not safe. Venezuela is not safe. TPS should be extended immediately. For Venezuelans, it was erased with a stroke of a pen. It could be put in place with a stroke of a pen. And TPS for Haitian immigrants should absolutely, positively be extended. Our economy is at stake and our humanity is at stake.

[Margaret Brennan]

As Mayor Hagans mentioned, legal protections for Haitians on the temporary protected status program end this Tuesday, but there are multiple lawsuits by advocacy groups to try and stop it from expiring. A federal judge in Washington, D.C. is expected to weigh in on one of those cases in the coming days. We'll keep watching. You can find the full conversation with the mayors on our YouTube page and on our website, basethenation.com be right back. That's it for us today. Thank you all for watching. Until next week, for FACE THE nation, I'm Margaret Brennan. Today's guests were Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corina Machado, Texas Republican Congressman Michael McCaul, IBM Vice Chairman Gary Cohn, Miami Mayor Eileen Higgins, Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt, Kansas City Mayor Quinton Lucas, and Mesa, Arizona Mayor Mark Freeman. The senior executive producer of Face the Nation is Mary Hager, and the executive producer is Anne Hsu. This broadcast was directed by Shelly Schwartz. Face THE Nation originates from CBS News in Washington. For more, we're [e-mail] and on YouTube. We're also rebroadcast on our CBS News 24. 7 streaming network at 12:30 on Sundays. And we're available through our apps CBS News and Paramount.

[Eileen Higgins]

Plus, a lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story. But right now, you probably need more on up first from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under 15 minutes. Because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big crazy world of ours on any given morning. Listen now to the upverse podcast from npr. It is my great honor to welcome you all to Starfleet Academy.

[Margaret Brennan]

There's never been a better time to

[David Holt]

enroll in Star Trek.

[Eileen Higgins]

It's our job to prepare you for the unimaginable.

[Margaret Brennan]

To the Night Cadet.

[Maria Corina Machado]

In high pressure situations, positive reinforcement is crucial to one's success. You're doing a great job.

[Michael McCaul]

This is what we train for.

[Gary Cohn]

These friends of mine, they all live

[Margaret Brennan]

for something bigger than themselves.

[Eileen Higgins]

Starfleet.

[Gary Cohn]

Starfleet Academy, new series now streaming on Paramount. Plus.