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- [00:00]
Angie Hicks
Why have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster Nibbles in our yard for me? Because I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet Nibbles after his untimely end. Huh, Nibbles gone too soon.
- [00:16]
Jim Himes
May he scurry in peace.
- [00:17]
Angie Hicks
Hey, sorry about your pet, but I just wire stuff. Nibbles would have loved you like a brother. Connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust Find pros for all your home projects@angie.com Imagine
- [00:31]
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- [01:03]
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- [02:19]
Margaret Brennan
I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington. And this week on Face THE Nation, President Trump's choice of national intelligence director has a chilling effect on the intel community and Capitol Hill. Plus, Democrats reck with a Senate candidate who's drawing national attention for the wrong reasons. President Trump's grand plan for the Washington, D.C. skyline isn't the only thing shaking up the city this summer. Last week, he appointed a man with no intelligence experience to head up the top agency in the intelligence community. Bill Pulte, who serves as the director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency, is the heir to a building fortune and close to the president, he's rubbed some Cabinet members the wrong way.
- [03:04]
Ry Barcott
Did you actually tell Pulte you were
- [03:09]
Jim Himes
going to punch him in the face?
- [03:11]
Ro Khanna
No, sir. I actually said I was going to kick his ass.
- [03:14]
Margaret Brennan
And his appointment has sparked concern among even Republicans trying to reauthorize a surveillance program that's due to expire this week. The top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Jim Himes, and Nebraska Republican Congressman Don Bacon, will also join us. Meanwhile, Democrats are keeping close watch on Tuesday's main Senate primary as their candidate faces some alarming allegations of past aggressive behavior. We'll talk with a top grand Platner supporter, California Democrat Ro Khanna. Finally, should the government have more control over the exploding field of artificial intelligence? It's all just ahead on FACE THE nation. Good morning and welcome to FACE THE nation. We have a lot to get to today, but we begin this morning with Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. Good to have you here in person.
- [04:21]
Ro Khanna
Good to be back.
- [04:22]
Margaret Brennan
You're just back from Maine, and on Tuesday, there's a primary there for Democrats. It'll help to determine who is going to challenge Susan Collins for her seat. She is the longtime Republican senator who has held onto it. This is all ultimately about who is going to control Congress and control the Senate. There's been a lot of excitement around Graham Platner, who we mentioned there right at the top. He's a veteran, an oysterman with this anti establishment progressive message. Why are you still campaigning for him after all of these questions about action, comments, activity in his personal life?
- [05:02]
Ro Khanna
Well, we had a rally planned, and I want to be clear. His actions were misogynistic. They were shameful, they were wrong. But they didn't come as a surprise to a lot of the folks in Maine. People in Maine knew that he had had two tours of duty in Iraq. He came back broken, in a dark place. That doesn't excuse his behavior. But they knew this. He was in Washington, and then he went back to Maine and he started an oyster farm. He took accountability. He himself has said it was shameful and he had redemption. And now he's running on a platform of national health insurance. When Susan Collins is voting to cut it, he's talking about taxing billionaires. Susan Collins is for tax breaks to billionaires. And he's opposed to this foreign war where Susan Collins supported the war in Iran. And that's why I'm still supporting him.
- [05:49]
Margaret Brennan
But I want to go through some of what we're referring to here. In specific, the campaign acknowledged a candidate sent sexually explicit texts to multiple women while he was married. Quite recently, he's acknowledged yet a tattoo with Nazi symbols that he's since covered up. But he claimed he didn't know the linkage and the symbolism. And he's had social media posts insulting rural people, downplaying sexual assault. He has apologized or said he regrets some of that behavior, as you just alluded to. He has also referred to the fact he's dealt with PTSD and some alcohol issues. Are you confident all the damaging info is out?
- [06:28]
Ro Khanna
That's what he says. My sense is, before the primary, a lot of this has come out, obviously. Look, if there was evidence of violence, I would not support him. If there was evidence of sexual assault, I'd have zero support for him. He acknowledges that he was misogynistic. It was shameful. One thing I want to make very clear, we should not be attacking the women who came forward. We should not be attacking the journalists. Some people have been attacking the New York Times journalists. They're. They did their job. We should focus on acknowledging it was misogynistic, acknowledging it was wrong, moving on with redemption, and then focusing on his issues, which are stopping the war, taking on the billionaire class.
- [07:09]
Margaret Brennan
You said there was no evidence of violence. In your view, there's nothing credible at this point.
- [07:17]
Ro Khanna
My view is that even according to the New York Times piece, they said there was no harm, no injury, there was toxicity, and there was verbal intimidation, which. Which I condemn. But Graham has made it clear that there was no evidence of violence. That, to me is a red line.
- [07:35]
Margaret Brennan
Well, because there's this woman, Lindsey Fifield, who dated him for about two years time, and she's been posting on social media, speaking on the record about their relationship. She said he left an AR15 lying around his Capitol Hill apartment when he lived here. Told her if anyone broke in, he'd rape them to show he's dominant. She did say he never hit her or punched her, but said he could be rough. And she described being grabbed by her shoulder. She described him pulling her arm as she was refusing to get out of a car. Years ago, the mantra was believe all women. Do you believe her?
- [08:12]
Ro Khanna
Yes. And I don't think our side should be attacking her. And I appreciate her courage from coming forward. I know some people are saying, oh, she's a Republican. I think that is irrelevant. I believe her. I think Graham acted shamefully, and he acted as. The New York Times characterized it as a toxic relationship. It is shameful. It is ugly. It happened in a dark period of his life. And the main voters that I met said they don't like it. They knew that he had these chapters. They are willing to extend him grace and redemption, and they're focused now on what he's running for. But I do not think we should be attacking her.
- [08:48]
Margaret Brennan
So it is his campaign, the Platner campaign, that described the accuser as a GOP operative who has dedicated her career to electing Republicans. She is a conservative. Would you advise the campaign to stop attacking her?
- [09:00]
Ro Khanna
Absolutely. They should not attack her. They should not attack the New York Times reporters who wrote the story. I know those reporters. They've written things critical of me. That's what journalists do. Donald Trump is the one who attacks the press. Our party doesn't attack the press. Our party believes that you treat women with equality and respect in all aspects of their lives. Graham Platner did not do that in the early 2000s. He should just say what he has said to Maine voters. That was a shameful period in his life of that conduct. And that's what makes him different, is that he's taken accountability for that period of his life. Others, like Trump, have never taken accountability.
- [09:35]
Margaret Brennan
So you mentioned the ptsd, and he has been very open about that. What he went through coming back from, I believe, three tours in Iraq, and then he worked in a private capacity in Afghanistan. But some veterans groups have said that, you know, he's basically using as an excuse for bad behavior, I don't think, and maligning them that way.
- [09:58]
Ro Khanna
It's not an excuse. It doesn't justify him being in toxic relationships or saying misogynistic things, because it
- [10:04]
Margaret Brennan
sounds like it's being used as an excuse.
- [10:05]
Ro Khanna
Well, I don't view. In fact, in my remarks, I said it's not an excuse, but it's the truth. It's his truth of who he was. But what it should tell us is we broke a lot of people in this country by sending people To Iraq. Susan Collins sent people to Iraq. And now on the hundredth day of a war in Iran, we're breaking more people. Gas is through the roof. Food is through the roof. And this Iran war is an illegal war, immoral war, an unstrategic war. And Graham Platner is running to stop it. That is the big issue that Maine voters were talking about. The war that's increasing gas prices, the lack of health care. But I don't believe PTSD should be an excuse for bad behavior. But we do need to recognize the toll these wars are taking on people.
- [10:46]
Margaret Brennan
And Platner did protest against the war, but that was before he enlisted in the Marines.
- [10:50]
Ro Khanna
Yes.
- [10:51]
Margaret Brennan
And then subsequently worked in a private capacity in Afghanistan.
- [10:56]
Ro Khanna
Well, he was. He was patriotic. Look, I ran against the war in Iraq in 2003. That was how I started. He was opposed to the war. We have made a mistake by getting into the war in Iraq. Now, he served the country, but one of the reasons he went into ptsd, if you talk to him, is he said, I realized that my service did not have a purpose for doing good. And now you've got Susan Collins, who has been an apologist for the war in Iran on this 100 day. What have we achieved? You still have an Iranian regime there. They still have the nuclear fuel there. The gas prices are through the roof. And why is Platner in the race? Because he's saying, stop these foreign wars.
- [11:32]
Margaret Brennan
So it just. I raise this because I have heard Democrats argue over this issue and the worry that they are ceding the moral high ground that they want to hold in order to stand on it and criticize Republicans. Right. CBS News has spoken to a former campaign official who expressed concern about the lack of vetting of Platner. This sounds like. It's just, you know, this is just politics.
- [11:57]
Ro Khanna
Like I said, the people in Maine were not surprised. I mean, it was a surprise to the national story. They knew that when he was in D.C. he had shameful parts of his life. Then he came back. He started an oyster farm. He was on the ocean for years. He found himself. But the big issue for voters, in my view, is are you for these wars? Are you for taxing billionaires? Are you for national health insurance? And that's the. The contrast. And the campaign is a vetting process. And the voters of Maine are asking these questions.
- [12:27]
Margaret Brennan
The campaign's. The vetting process.
- [12:28]
Ro Khanna
Well, the primary campaign. I mean, it's been a year of campaigning that he has. That he has had.
- [12:32]
Margaret Brennan
Can he survive another scandal? You have Five months here?
- [12:36]
Ro Khanna
Well, it depends what I'm not. You know, I mean, obviously, if there was any evidence that comes out that there is actual domestic violence or assault, I have zero tolerance for that. I led the fight against the Epstein class, which has been a cover up for sexual abuse with Thomas Massie. I've been at the forefront of championing women's rights and rights of survivors. But here you have a case of someone who had a dark chapter in his life, was in toxic relationships, was ashamed about it, who served this country. And the main voters are saying, look, let's give him some grace. And his focus is stopping these wars and it's getting national health insurance and it's taking on economic inequality.
- [13:14]
Margaret Brennan
Okay. And that is the progressive message that you are supporting. Ro Khanna, thank you.
- [13:18]
Ro Khanna
Thank you.
- [13:20]
Margaret Brennan
We turn now to the top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, Representative Jim Himes, who joins us this morning from Greenwich, Connecticut. Welcome back to FACE THE nation.
- [13:29]
Jim Himes
Good to be with you, Margaret.
- [13:31]
Margaret Brennan
Congressman, President Trump appointed the Federal Housing Finance Agency head Bill Pulte to be the next director of National Intelligence. The president said it is temporary, but even in that acting role, he could stay in it for over 200 days and it would bypass congressional approval. Polti himself was Senate confirmed for housing job. Three Democrats voted for him. Do you know if he has a security clearance to do the intelligence work?
- [14:02]
Jim Himes
Well, that's a very narrow question, Margaret. I have heard a senator said that he did not have a security clearance, but that's almost beside the point. Right. He doesn't have an iota of national security experience. And the president is putting him in this most sensitive of and you know, you pointed out that he was confirmed for the sort of obscure Federal Housing Finance Agency job. This was before he used that job to try to go after the president's political enemies, Adam Schiff and Letitia James. And so now we've got a little bit more data on Bill Pulte. And the reason this is so controversial is that we know that's his distinguishing feature. He's going to do whatever it is that he believes is in the president's political interest. And there is no way that the authorities and assets of the intelligence community can be in the hands of an individual who showed that his sole reason for being in Washington is to do the president's political laundry.
- [14:59]
Margaret Brennan
Well, the president did say he wants Pulte to find out more about the 2020 election. At this point, is there anything Congress can do to stop him from taking on this role?
- [15:10]
Jim Himes
Well, you know, you haven't asked about it, but, you know, this Pulte nomination, which, by the way, created bipartisan outrage. You saw the public commentary, my Republican colleagues. The president did this 10 days before the expiration of our most important and also very controversial collection authority. That's FISA 702. Right? I mean, I just heard Senator Warner describe it as throwing a grenade into a very, very delicate situation. And so. No. I mean, can Congress do anything to stop this? Not really, but the president is now assured through this appointment that the single most important intelligence collection tool, at a time when the Iranians are, you know, thinking about conducting operations abroad, maybe in the United States. I mean, you just could not have come up with worse timing for what is probably the worst appointment into the intelligence community I've ever seen.
- [16:03]
Margaret Brennan
Mm. Well, this was a controversial authorization. You've been working really hard on trying to convince both Democrats and Republicans to extend it even before Bill Pulte was chosen. We know yesterday the Republican chairs of Senate intel and Judiciary sent a letter to the White House saying, expect a lapse in the collection of foreign intelligence later this week. So how do you get around this? Because it sounds like there is planning for this key surveillance tool you say is so important to just not be in place.
- [16:37]
Jim Himes
Yeah, no, I saw the letter from Tom Cotton and Chuck Grassley. And look, I think at one level, they're acknowledging reality, which is that the Pulte appointment has taken 702 reauthorization off the table. You know, we voted in the House and passed a bill with 42 Democrats. I will tell you that at least half of those Democrats are gone because they will say, look, I wasn't very comfortable with this authority to begin with. And we don't need to get into why it's controversial. But it is controversial. But with Bill Pulte, who is, you know, absolutely dedicated to abusing authorities. No, I'm not there. And so you saw in the Senate yesterday a failure to proceed on a reauthorization. So the only right answer here, Margaret, the only right answer, and I don't have a lot of confidence that it's going to happen, is that the President says, you know, oops, that was a mistake, and pulls the bill, pull appointment in favor of somebody who will give, not just Democrats, but everybody more confidence that this is somebody with some experience who won't abuse intelligence authorities. That's the only way out of this mess. And, you know, President Trump could do that right now.
- [17:40]
Margaret Brennan
Well, it sounds like you're saying Democrats are going to withhold their votes until Pulte's selection is polled. The president often doesn't back down. As you know, is. Is the White House is Marco Rubio, who was up on Capitol Hill just a few days ago, working in any way with Democrats to find an acceptable alternative here to Bill Pulte.
- [18:04]
Jim Himes
Well, remember, two things. Number one, where I work in the House of Representatives, we already pacifize a reauthorization bill. So the question you ask is really a question for the Senate. I guess the Senate is the thing
- [18:16]
Margaret Brennan
standing in the way, you're saying, right?
- [18:18]
Jim Himes
Well, the Senate needs to pass a bill or pass the House bill. Right. My point is that the House already passed a bill. Now, by the way, if we had to pass another bill in the context of Bill Pulte, I don't think we could. But, you know, it's not Marco Rubio. You said, as Marco Rubio, working with Democrats to find an alternative to Bill Pulte. That's not the way this works. Right. The President needs to sober up and realize that this appointment is arguably in the, you know, you know, basket of awful appointments he has made. This is probably the worst and most dangerous. So, I mean, I hope he can find a way out, because you're right, he doesn't like to back down. But he's also not going to like the terrorist attacks that might happen if there is no 702 collection authority. Because, look, you know, Tom Cotton can try to say that this is a Democratic issue all he wants, but the Bill Pulte appointment was, you know, panned in a. In a strong bipartisan way.
- [19:09]
Margaret Brennan
Yeah, but just to be clear, you're saying that the Senate has to vote on the bill that the House sent up if they make any changes. Would you still vote. Vote for FISA reauthorization if Pulte is in the spot.
- [19:22]
Jim Himes
So the only way. So the House passed a bill, 42 Democrats supported it. That would not be true today. So, you know, I still.
- [19:30]
Margaret Brennan
You would withhold your vote this time?
- [19:31]
Jim Himes
It can happen. I've. Well, well, again, it's the, it's. The ball is in the Senate's court. The House passed it. I don't think. Look, if I had to vote again on this thing, knowing Bill Pulte's background, experience and what he's done in this obscure federal agency, I don't think I could look myself in the mirror in the morning and say, yeah, this is a guy who should, you know, have control and access to this authority. And look, I think there's lots of Democrats and Republicans who Feel that way.
- [20:00]
Margaret Brennan
I reached out to you, wanting to also speak to you about Ukraine before this controversy erupted here with Bill Pulte. You were just there, you were meeting with President Zelensky. Just in the past few days, Ukraine has carried out some very deep strikes. Strikes St. Petersburg, some what, 600 miles into Russian territory. How do you judge where the war is at this moment in time? Is Russia still winning?
- [20:28]
Jim Himes
No, Russia is not winning. And I mean, that's the headline, right? Ukraine is now winning by any standard, right? On a net basis, you know, the front lines are moving a couple of square miles here or there, but on a net basis, the Ukrainians are now retaking territory. The Ukrainians are inflicting a mind boggling number of deaths on the Russians. You know, for every square mil that the Russians move, they're giving 250, 300 Russian men in fatalities. You know, the Russian casualties are like 30,000amonth. It's just staggering. I mean, it's like a, it's like a Vietnam every two months for the Russians there. And as you pointed out, the Ukrainians are now striking deep into Russian territory in a way that has compromised, you know, 30% or so of their, of the Russian refining capacity. So make no mistake, the Ukrainians are
- [21:13]
Margaret Brennan
winning this war on Israel and Iran. There is some reporting both in the New York Times and another television network that the US has increased its counterintelligence threat against Israel. Some specifics there about them spying on American officials. Is that accurate? Has the US Raised its counterintelligence threat level against Israel?
- [21:39]
Jim Himes
Yeah, I can't really comment on what we're doing with respect to counterintelligence, but it is worth reflecting on the fact that, that you see a divergence now between US Policy and Israeli policy. I wasn't on the phone call, so I can't validate that it happened the way it was reported in the press. But of course the press reported that President Trump was screaming obscenities into the phone at Prime Minister Netanyahu because the President, of course, is very motivated to get this conflict over. He knows the effect of a $50 increase in gas prices on his political fortunes and his party's political fortunes. So, you know, Israel is not, though they are an ally, they are not a member of the Five Eyes agreement in which we agree not to spy on each other and that sort of thing. So again, without answering your question, which I cannot do, you know, this is a moment in time where the President is at odds with the Israeli leader.
- [22:31]
Margaret Brennan
Well, we will continue to track that story. Jim Himes, thank you for your time this morning. FACE THE Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.
- [22:39]
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- [22:48]
Margaret Brennan
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- [22:55]
Angie Hicks
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- [23:08]
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- [24:04]
Margaret Brennan
We go now to Republican Congressman Don Bacon who joins us from Omaha, Nebraska. Welcome back to FACE THE nation.
- [24:11]
Don Bacon
Thank you, Margaret.
- [24:12]
Margaret Brennan
Before we get to national security, I want to ask you about politics, politics and candidate quality. Last month, Texas Republicans chose to make Ken Paxton their Senate nominee despite the fact as Texas AG he was impeached by the Republican controlled House on multiple charges of abuse of office, including bribery. His wife is divorcing him on what she called biblical grounds because of adultery. And he was indicted in 2015 on securities fraud, charges that were later dropped. Despite all this, the president backed him over sitting Senator John Cornyn and so did Texas Republicans. For your party, does Trump's favor carry more weight than character?
- [24:56]
Don Bacon
I think in many cases it does. His endorsement in a primary is often carries the most weight. But I think it was a mistake. I think this is hurt.
- [25:07]
Margaret Brennan
Hurt.
- [25:07]
Don Bacon
The president A lot of senators feel very close to Senator Cornyn. He was a big fundraiser. He helped a lot of these Republicans get elected all over the country. So there's a lot of loyalty to John Cornyn. In fact, I know him, too, and I admire the guy. And now we've nominated a guy in Texas that is probably the most vulnerable in a general election, and it puts that seat up for grabs. So it was, I don't think it was a wise decision. And I would say one other factor here is the Democrat nominee. I think he's also pretty weak, though, in Texas. So I think they both, both sides have nominated people that are vulnerable in general. But John Cornyn could have won the seat easily, and now the Republicans will be spending a lot of money to hold it. And I think it was a mistake.
- [25:55]
Margaret Brennan
I know you have chosen to retire, but if you were having to campaign and explain all this, this including the higher gas prices, how would you persuade voters?
- [26:05]
Don Bacon
Well, I try to in my case, I try to show, I try to do what's right, whether it's President Trump's position or not his position. And I just try to look voters in the eye that say, hey, I support Ukraine. I think terrorists are a mistake. I have votes to back it up. I also support the fact that we secured the border. I support generally what we're doing in Iran because Iran has been waging war against us for 47 years. So I just try to call balls and strikes and I try to be honest and I try to do once I'm elected what I campaign on.
- [26:35]
Margaret Brennan
All right. Well, we'll let you call some of those balls and strikes on the other side of this commercial break that I have to take. So please stay with us. We have more questions for Congressman Bacon and a lot more FACE THE nation. Stay with us. Welcome back to FACE THE nation. We return now to our conversation with Nebraska Republican Congressman Don Bacon. Congressman, I want to go to Europe and talk about Ukraine, but let me first ask you about what was said at Normandy on Saturday. Secretary Hegseth seemed in his remarks to link immigration to the legacy of the D Day landings by Allied forces who were liberating Europe from the Nazis. Take a listen.
- [27:23]
Ro Khanna
Sadly, today, different European beaches are stormed by different dangerous ideologies. Each is in Spain, in Italy, in Greece and Bulgaria, boats and men arrive. When will European capitals do something about that invasion?
- [27:48]
Margaret Brennan
I'm not sure who the allies were in that analogy, but I wonder what you make of Hegseth's remarks.
- [27:55]
Don Bacon
You know, Normandy is a time to celebrate A great day. You know, I've been on the beaches of Omaha and you know, we lost about 3,000 troops on that beach on one day. That's where the focus should have been. It's a chance to celebrate with our allies. We work together to defeat Nazi Germany. And one of the concerns that many of us have when it comes to this administration and particularly the Pentagon right now, they're very critical of Europe, they're critical of the eu, they're critical of NATO, they're critical of a lot of the countries that make up NATO. And you never hear them criticize Russia. And that bothers us. Why are they so weak on the Russia which affects their Ukraine foreign policy, their policy towards the Baltics. But they are quick to always want to criticize Europe. It reminds me of the message that Secretary Hegseth sent to the vice President on signal when he said how much he loathed Europe. Well, I think that's not good for America. It's not good for our national security. And we, our allies, we have to work together to counter Russia, to counter China, to help us in the Middle East. And this constant criticism, along with the President's threats towards Greenland as well as Canada, it's hurt us. Our allies have lost a lot of trust. So I don't think these comments by the Secretary were helpful.
- [29:15]
Margaret Brennan
Yeah, well, I know you have been taking a stand against Russia and for Ukraine. You did that this past week along with some of your colleagues, as you put it in remarks on the House floor. This is our Churchill moment or our Chamberlain moment. And by God, I'm going to choose Churchill. Seventeen Republicans joined you. The last time we saw a vote on Ukraine aid, there were a hundred Republicans supporting what is going on here. And how do you get the Senate to take up what you did? Get over the line?
- [29:48]
Don Bacon
Well, a couple things here. First of all, the President has had a policy of wanting to negotiate a settlement. I don't think it's working. He is too much is trying to act like an umpire, trying to work with two different people in a boxing match. But it's not the case. You have a country that's invading Ukraine. They're bombing cities every night. There's a good versus evil here. And America should be, you know, unabashedly for the right side here, the democracy, the country that wants free markets, the country that wants to align with us. Russia hates us. I don't know why the President can't see that. Putin hates the United States. He hates what we stand for. So that's a problem there when it comes to the House, the Speaker has not wanted. Has not wanted to get in front of the President on the and so he lobbied pretty hard and we call it whipping against this vote. I think he was wrong. I've waited for a year and a half in this Congress to get something done on Ukraine and we've done nothing. There's been no votes, no policies from the leadership here or the President to support a country that's fighting for its life. I agree with your previous interview that Ukraine has the upper hand right now. But Russia is bombing those cities every night and we should be there to help them to defend against these ballistic missile attacks. The speaker whipped against this, and that's why he drove that number down. I think he was wrong. He says he's pro Ukraine, but the actions speak louder than words.
- [31:15]
Margaret Brennan
President Zelenskyy was on this program last Sunday asking for more interceptors, but also he made clear that he wants friendly countries in Europe who have a good relationship with the US to be able to produce the Patriots as well. I know your colleague Mike Turner wrote to the President last week asking for that part to be delivered on. Do you support it? I mean, what's the holdup?
- [31:41]
Don Bacon
I do support it. We cannot produce enough Patriots right now to handle what we're doing in Iran to provide Ukraine. But also we need have the same missile defenses in Asia for whether it's North Korea or China, and we're not producing enough. So we should look for our allies to help create additional production lines. I know Ukraine would love to help do that, and they need these missiles very badly. What I would do in this case, we have a low stockpile because of Iran. I would sit down with our allies and just look at what assets we have and come up with a plan to give anti ballistic missile technology and capabilities to Ukraine. And we can't do it all, but we should sit down with our allies and build a plan and get it done.
- [32:26]
Margaret Brennan
Don Bacon, Republican from Nebraska. Thank you so much, sir. We'll be right back.
- [32:33]
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- [34:02]
Margaret Brennan
Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well well. Roof repair, done well. Kitchen sink install, done well. Deck upgrades, done well. Electrical upgrade, done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years. So we know the difference between done and done well. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project@angie.com should the government regulate AI and if so, how? We're joined by CBS News News cybersecurity contributor Chris Krebs, who ran CISA in the first Trump administration, and Ben Buchanan, who advised President Biden and is now a professor at Johns Hopkins and an advisor to Anthropic. Good to have you both here.
- [34:51]
Angie Hicks
Good to be here. Thanks for having us.
- [34:52]
Margaret Brennan
So this was a big change because President Trump and his advisors clearly saw something that led to a shift in their policy. They were very light touch, literally don't do anything. And now there was this executive order just a few days ago to have some step towards, I don't know if we can call regulating it because it's voluntary, but that the companies have to voluntarily provide their very sensitive technology 30 days before releasing it to let the government have a first look. What does this accomplish? Chris?
- [35:25]
Angie Hicks
Well, I think the biggest concern was while there had been a sense that generative AI and some of the more advanced tools were giving cyber attackers and defenders better capabilities, it wasn't until about two months ago where Anthropic released their mythos, or at least announced their mythos preview, that really brought it, I think, to the forefront with cabinet secretaries like Scott Bessen and Treasury and some other folks. So they became more concerned. They go to the White House say, hey, we need to take a bit more of a proactive approach.
- [35:58]
Margaret Brennan
They got concerned because, because business entities,
- [36:00]
Angie Hicks
yeah, I mean, in part the finance sector, banks. Jamie Dimon and JP Morgan and a number of others were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we need to pause, we need to think about what we're doing here and we need to take a bit more robust, security focused approach on how we as this avalanche of vulnerabilities that'll be discovered by AI, how we prepare and ensure that we're not gonna be overwhelmed.
- [36:27]
Margaret Brennan
Ben, 30 days for the government to conduct a full security vetting. Is that possible or is this just sort of window dressing to say the government's doing something?
- [36:38]
Ben Buchanan
In the Biden administration, we built a capability at the AI Safety Institute to do quick voluntary testing of AI systems, including for cyber risks and for Bioris. So I think the tests themselves can go quickly, but that doesn't mean the government is going to do that in a fulsome way. So the jury, I think is still out on how the President chooses to implement this.
- [36:58]
Margaret Brennan
Right.
- [36:58]
Ben Buchanan
But the timing here, I think is not one of the pieces that worries me. It's more getting the details of what does this testing look for.
- [37:04]
Margaret Brennan
Right. And what's the consequence?
- [37:06]
Ben Buchanan
Exactly.
- [37:07]
Margaret Brennan
So can the government stop it? The whole risk and worry had been this would get in the way of America's arms race with China. Does this get in the way of America's arms race with China?
- [37:17]
Ben Buchanan
Not as it's currently written, No, I don't think so. And I don't even think even more stringent versions would. I do think what's happening here is you see the government wrestling with something that we wrestled with in the Biden administration. This technology is coming from the private sector and in many respects it's the first revolutionary technology that is primarily in its current form from the private sector. If you think about nukes or space or so much for the government has and has had a role in all those technologies, inventing them, shaping them. It doesn't really have that in AI. So the Trump administration is now trying to figure out how does it want to assert itself in this new domain. That actually is quite different, different conceptually than many of the ones that came before it.
- [37:52]
Margaret Brennan
And in Congress, they haven't regulated really, not yet.
- [37:56]
Angie Hicks
In fact, the executive order is very clear when it says this is not a licensing regime, there is not a pre clearance mechanism, but it does set up a structure where the nsa, the National Security Agency, can define what a covered model is and then brings those models into the 30 day pre review and then you can look at maybe what some of the vulnerabilities that could be discovered and then you can share those out with defenders, with industry so that they are prepared. But separately this week you had Congressman Obernolti introduce draft legislation that may give a requirement for submitting some of these subsequently covered models for pre review and auditing by independent bodies on a twice a year basis.
- [38:45]
Margaret Brennan
Unclear if that's got a future though. That lets.
- [38:48]
Angie Hicks
But it's starting the conversation which I think is critical.
- [38:51]
Margaret Brennan
So the President did say to reporters that all the big AI leaders are coming to the White House quite soon. He has said he's looking into the US government taking an ownership stake in some AI companies that mean US taxpayers would own stakes. And it's been reported that OpenAI's Sam Altman also pitched an idea to Senator Bernie Sanders about transferring 50% of the equity of the top AI companies to a public fund to both of you. Would that work? What does that do? Is that just retrofitting what you said, which is the government needs to have some kind of hand in here.
- [39:27]
Ben Buchanan
It's certainly conceptually trying to address that question of what's the relation between the public and private sector. I think with something that is that drastic, the devil is really in the details. And we don't have any details of this meeting or even of Senator Sanders proposal. So I think we've got a long way to go on making that real. And, and it feels incongruous with me of what does it mean to let the private sector run here. So I think there's a lot of complexity that's yet to be worked out in that proposal.
- [39:51]
Angie Hicks
And on that note, it also creates a significant governance challenge. When you control, when you own part of whatever the tool is, it creates a conflict of interest and some self dealing perhaps if you're also trying to regulate it. So again the details here are what's gonna matter. It is interesting that it's almost a horseshoe effect where you, you have both Republicans and Democrats that are talking about perhaps we need to take an ownership stake in these models.
- [40:18]
Margaret Brennan
They seem scared. I mean that seems to be the takeaway that's forcing a change in position and anthropic. The company you advised called for an international pause in AI development because of how fast the systems are improving. As I understand it, the concerns the models are becoming so advanced they can fix themselves without humans being involved.
- [40:39]
Ben Buchanan
The dynamic here that's very interesting is what we call recursive self improvement. So the AI systems help the AI companies generate the next version of the system. And that can show up in a number of ways. One of the ways it can show up is the AI systems Write the computer code for the next version. Another one is the AI systems do the research and some of the math and underlying conceptual work that leads to efficiencies in the next system. And now we increasingly see AI systems helping design the chips that are the lifeblood of this. So I think it is the case for a variety of reasons, recursive self improvement, massive infrastructure investments. We should expect these systems to continue to get very good very quickly. And that does raise real national security questions no matter who is president.
- [41:20]
Margaret Brennan
Do you expect that most companies are going to comply with this voluntary 30 day review? Chris?
- [41:27]
Angie Hicks
Well, I think there's a separate mechanism that probably has more teeth and that's where what was issued on Friday, a National security Presidential memorandum on the national Security enterprise in the use of AI which allows the Department of Defense to use the power of the purse, the procurement mechanisms to dictate what the policies are and who needs to submit to reviews and who will follow certain presidential or rather department level directions. So I think the executive order is an interesting framing for a government wide approach, but the real movement, I think the real teeth is what's happening at the Department of Defense in dictating what the policies are for how vendors can dictate to the government on how models can be used.
- [42:10]
Ben Buchanan
In the Biden administration. In 2023 we brought the companies to the White House to meet with the President and they all made voluntary commitments which they then followed through on to do independent red team testing for risks like cyber for bio, to publish their testing results to the public and they followed through on that. So I do think there's a history here of companies working with government, but I suspect both sides are going to have to do a lot more as this technology gets better.
- [42:33]
Margaret Brennan
I recall during the Biden administration there was this agreement between the US and China not to let AI touch nukes.
- [42:41]
Ben Buchanan
That's right.
- [42:41]
Margaret Brennan
As I understand it, there's discussion about the risk towards biological weapons. OpenAI anthropic and Google's AI initiative signed a letter saying that there should be a law to keep AI out of biological biological weapons.
- [42:56]
Ben Buchanan
Chris spoke very well and you spoke very well about the cyber dimensions of the current set of models. I would look at these current models not as cyber models, but as generally capable models. And the biofrins, they can do expert tasks in a wide variety of areas, not just in cyber, also in bio and the like. This was something that we were very alert to in the Biden administration. There's a long section on bio in the President's executive order in 2023. There's upside. AI can do a lot for medical discovery. But there also is legitimate concern that AI is outperforming PhD level virologists on virology questions. And that could abet a bioweapons risk that is not hypothetical.
- [43:33]
Margaret Brennan
Okay, well now you're scaring me. I mean, do they need to be bilateral agreements between countries or. This is because we have the edge at this moment. America needs to set the rules, the role for everyone. I mean, essentially they did for nuclear weapons. Right. We had them first, but it was out of fear.
- [43:50]
Angie Hicks
Look, look, AI, emerging technologies Quantum is going to present, I think the same problem. But we're now entering this governance space where technology development is moving faster than democratic oversight and control can allow or provide. And I think to your earlier question about they're scared. There's fear. It's their overwhelm. They don't really understand the technology. It's very complex understanding how to meaningfully intervene. That's consistent with the American regulatory tradition of its light touch. Free markets, capital markets. We're seeing a bit of, I think a divide here on how to interact. But again you are seeing some interesting parallels in direction of travel. That's consistent between the administration, the Congress and Democrats and Republicans that understand something needs to be done.
- [44:43]
Ry Barcott
Done.
- [44:43]
Angie Hicks
We're just not quite sure what the mechanisms are just yet.
- [44:47]
Margaret Brennan
Yeah, and the technology is moving really quickly while that's being debated. A gentleman, thank you for bottom lining this for us. We'll be right back in a moment.
- [44:57]
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Margaret Brennan
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Angie Hicks
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- [45:59]
Margaret Brennan
On Friday, we spoke with Ry Barcott, a Marine veteran who is the founder of Witham, an organization that supports military and public service veterans for higher office. His new book is courage can save 10 extraordinary Americans and the Fight for Our Future. We began by asking about the group's mission and why it's so important.
- [46:18]
Ry Barcott
Now we've helped recruit and train and help elect veterans that take our pledge to serve with integrity, civility and courage, including the courage to work across party lines at a difficult time to do so. Through that process, I've gotten to know many of them quite well. And so what I decided to do was select 10, an even balance of 5 and 5, all of whom were in office at a very difficult, challenging time for the country, and really unpack where their courage came from, and then look at moments of courage, both in military service as well as in politics and elected office. Sometimes that courage is quieter. It's more of a moral courage versus a physical courage which they may have encountered in the military. But that was my approach to this book, which I've written principally for students. I'd like to see more students being able to study courage. I define courage as a form of service, that it is taking risk in the service of something larger than yourself. It's not self interested. It's serving what's referred to oftentimes as the common good.
- [47:22]
Margaret Brennan
Well, you do need to inspire younger people, it sounds like, because when we look at the polling Overall, 17% of Americans, according to Pew, trust the government in Washington to do what's right all or most of the time. Our own CBS polling has showed the younger generations dispirited, they're anxious about their futures. So how do you inspire them to join a system that they believe is broken?
- [47:45]
Ry Barcott
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of young people are. They're feeling lonely. There's a lack of a sense of purpose. One of the great things that I found through military service was that it gives you. It gives you a sense of something larger than yourself and a common mission with Americans from all different walks of life. So one of the key takeaways for the book is to find a route into public service. And that's one of the goals with this.
- [48:10]
Margaret Brennan
Do you worry we are at a point where the kind of moral courage you're describing is nearly impossible to fill, because when we look at the kind of partisanship out there and Then you look at, for example, the redistricting that may lock in that partisanship and disincentivize the thing. You say you want to encourage bipartisanship. The forces are kind of against you.
- [48:32]
Ry Barcott
The forces are really going against us. And most Americans want courage but feel like they see very little of it or none of it. And what I wanted to shine a light on is to say that this still exists. It still exists. Here are 10 examples of it. It's hard. We need to celebrate it when it arises.
- [48:50]
Margaret Brennan
You know, past military service doesn't guarantee a flawless life. I mean, you gestured to that. But we've been talking about this with candidates. The Democratic Senate candidate in Maine, for example, other lawmakers. Do you ever look at candidates and say, despite your service, I can't support you?
- [49:09]
Ry Barcott
We do. We only, we usually only do about 10% of the overall vets that run. This year there is more vets running than any year before. It's an increase of over 30% across cross party lines. Quite encouraging. Many of those vets are not running in races that are winnable. So that's one criteria. But really fundamentally, we look at character. And you have to commit to this pledge to serve with integrity, civility and courage. We watch how people conduct themselves on the campaign trail. We interview individuals that serve with them in the military under duress. And it's only about 10% of the veterans that make the cut once they serve in office. They really need to be committed to. They have to maintain that trust across party lines. That doesn't mean that they'll agree on every issue. Most issues they don't, but they'll maintain trust and relationships. It doesn't always work.
- [50:01]
Margaret Brennan
You talk about the pledge. When we looked it up, the pledge is to bring civility to office, participate in a cross partisan veterans caucus. You ask members also to pledge just to meet with a member of the opposing party party once a month and then join them in significant bipartisan legislation.
- [50:20]
Ry Barcott
That's right.
- [50:21]
Margaret Brennan
Can people actually build on that?
- [50:22]
Ry Barcott
I mean, it seems so different legislating these days. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can we amp it up and expand it more? I hope so. We have continued to grow and maintain that cohesion, but it has been difficult. I mean, there have been many moments over the last eight years where we've. Relationships get frayed. I mean, January 6th was one the of example, you know, many others and this matters for the country, but it is not easy. And you know, meeting alone is one thing, but then actually being willing to have the courage to put your name with another and say, we're going to do this and we're going to stand for this. Even though I might get attacked for working with the enemy. I mean, it's a crazy thing. There's a survey out that 80% of Republicans and Democrats, registered Republicans and Democrats. Of course, about 40% of the country are non affiliated. But among those that are affiliated, over 80% refer to the other side as the enemy. I mean, that's what we're. And that's why with this book, I think courage can save us as a country. The US is the flag. It has a crack in it. It's not broken, but it has a crack in it. We're in a serious place as a nation. We're turning 250 years, but at the end of the day, I believe this is an optimistic outlook. There are a lot of people that are still serving for the good of service, something that's larger than themselves.
- [51:45]
Margaret Brennan
Our full conversations on our website, YouTube page and podcast platform. We'll be right back. I'm Margaret Brennan, and this has been Face the Nation. The senior executive producer of Face the Nation is Mary Hager Laird. The executive producer is Anne Hsu. This broadcast was directed by Shelly Schwartz. Face the Nation originates from CBS News in Washington. For more Face the Nation, we're online@facethenation.com and on YouTube. Face the Nation is also rebroadcast on our CBS News 24. 7 streaming network at 12:30 on Sundays. It's available through our Paramount app. Are you really buying a car online on autotrader right now? Really? At a playground? Yeah, really. Look at these listings from dealers. Wow, your search can really get that specific. Really? And you just put in your info and boom. Cars in your budget. Mom needs a second.
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Really? Or I can pick it up at the dealership. One sec, sweetie.
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Kyle again? Really? Auto trader.
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