Tom Homan (3:12)

Good morning.

Margaret Brennan (3:13)

So Congress is gone until mid April. Will the president compel them to come back and sort this out?

Tom Homan (3:23)

Well, look, I hope so. I mean, they got to fund the Department of Homeland Security again, we're talking about the Department of Homeland Security. And we're in an increased threat posture right now because what's going on in the world, we got to keep this country safe, which means we got to. We got to fund the members of the Coast Guard and CISA and Secret Service and all these other agencies within the Department of Homeland Security. I know the president found a way to pay TSA workers so we can get the American public through those lines. And he also came up with the idea of sending ICE agents to the airport, which has had an impact. So we just need to get the department funded. They want to talk about, you know, immigration policies. We can talk about that. But why you got to hold the rest of DHS hostage to do that? Let's sit down and talk. I've been talking to him for the last two weeks.

Margaret Brennan (4:09)

Yeah, but just to be clear, the president is not forcing lawmakers to come back to Washington now. He's going to wait until mid April to do this.

Tom Homan (4:18)

Look, and the American people hold Congress responsible. They're on vacation right now while tens of thousands of DHS employees aren't being paid.

Margaret Brennan (4:27)

Right, but Republicans control both chambers. This is the president's party.

Tom Homan (4:31)

The Democrats shut. The Democrats shut down dhs. They fully shut down DHS because they simply won't fund DHS because they want to change ICE policies. So ICE is less effective in the Interior. Remember why we're here? We're here because the last four years of an open border, millions of people entering this country illegally, many public safety threats, national security threats, and we're out seeking them and arresting them. And they simply don't like ISA enforcing the law. They proved that last four years. They didn't let ICE enforce the law.

Margaret Brennan (5:00)

The bill that passed this out Senate was bipartisan and it did have a lot of the funding for the agencies you just laid out there. The issue was specific to parts of ice, but it seems like the White House really didn't force your party to get in line here because that Republican controlled Senate did pass a funding bill. The White House didn't get the House of Representatives leadership on board with that. In fact, The Speaker, Mike Johnson, said that bill was a joke. Why wasn't the White House able to get both parties, both heads of the party the president controls, on the same page?

Tom Homan (5:41)

Look, I've been up on the Hill. I've been in these meetings. I've met with lawmakers on both sides. This isn't a White House issue. This is the Democrats shutting down the Department of Homeland Security.

Margaret Brennan (5:50)

So did you support the Republican bill in that Senate that passed?

Tom Homan (5:55)

I support Congress opening up the entire government, the entire dhs, and not holding people in DHS hostage because they don't like immigration enforcement.

Margaret Brennan (6:04)

You weren't on board with the Senate, though?

Tom Homan (6:06)

The entire government? I'm with the president. Okay, well, I missed that. Say it again, ma'. Am.

Margaret Brennan (6:13)

So you were not in favor of the bill that passed the Senate, which the Republican leader. I got it.

Tom Homan (6:21)

I support the President of the United States in getting DHS fully funded and operating.

Margaret Brennan (6:24)

Okay, so tell me. So the president did direct DHS to use other pots of emergency cash to pay these TSA officers, and they're supposed to receive paychecks as early as tomorrow. Does that mean that the system's going to become unclogged? Do they actually have to show up to work to get paid?

Tom Homan (6:46)

Yeah, I think it's certainly going to help because TSA agents have left the job because they got, you know, whether it's driving Ubers or finding other jobs so they can feed their families and pay the rent. So I'm hoping with this change that President Trump put in place with Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen, that more will come back to work. Until then, ISIR will remain in airports to take those jobs, to secure the airport and check identification and check exit lanes where people enter through exit, do the jobs that don't require the enhanced TSA screening so we can get more TSA screeners on the X ray machines, open up more lanes so ICE is there to do the job, to get TSA screeners back to the line and hopefully open up more lines, get the American public through the airport.

Margaret Brennan (7:31)

Okay, well, there's like 500 TSA officers who have quit. Do you expect to be able to rehire them? We have some big events like the World cup coming up in June. Are we going to have problems at airports for the foreseeable future?

Tom Homan (7:48)

Look, we're going to continue a nice presence there until the airports feel like they're in. They're in 100%, you know, in a posture where they can do normal operations. If less TS agents come back, that means we'll keep more ICE agents there. The president been clear he wants to secure those airports, especially, as I said earlier, in an increased threat posture. We need to secure those airports. Isis there to help our brothers and sisters in tsa. We'll be there as long as they need us until they get back to normal operations and feel like those airports are secure.

Margaret Brennan (8:18)

Okay, so you referenced some of this earlier. The reason that we got to this political standoff is because of the differences between Democrats and Republicans on the policy part of this. And back in January, those two Americans, Renee Goode and Alex Preddy, were shot during immigration actions. Democrats point to that and say this is why they need to force change. We saw that letter you signed, and in it you were very willing. You told lawmaker to expand the use of body cameras to limit enforcement activities at locations like schools and hospitals and require officers to identify themselves. So if you're willing to make those changes, what's the harm in legislating them?

Tom Homan (9:04)

We already made those changes.

Margaret Brennan (9:06)

Why not?

Tom Homan (9:09)

Matter of fact, the builder holding up right now actually gives $120 million to buy more cameras. I've already talked to them. They want to talk about policy and legislative policy. Look, if they want to change the law, change the law. We're enforcing laws they enacted.

Margaret Brennan (9:25)

Well, they are trying to write new law.

Tom Homan (9:28)

Give me one instance, and there's not one Democratic lawmaker can give me one example. 1. A single one where ICE arrested an illegal alien inside of a hospital. When have we ever arrested an illegal alien inside of a church? The only one that violated the sanctuary of the church. Was Don Lamon in that group. No, we have not made those arrests. Even though we don't have a sense of location policy. The men and women ICE have common sense. They don't go into schools. I want to make a caveat here. If you're a significant public safety threat and national security threat, you have no sanctuary. But they can't point to one instance where ICE has made arrests in those, what they call sensitive locations.

Margaret Brennan (10:05)

Well, but there was a policy change in January 2025 where the Trump administration said they weren't going to be, you know, have their hands tied in terms of those sensitive locations.

Tom Homan (10:15)

So that was a shift because, as I said, a significant public safety threat or national security threat does not have a sanctuary in this country. We're going to find them, we're going to arrest them. However, you can't point to one instance where we actually went into a church in school because we try very hard to wait for people to leave places we wait for them. We either rest from their home or rest from the community. We try very hard not to go in those sensitive locations because we know there's an issue there. So that's what I've been telling the members on Hill. As far as body cameras, first thing I did in Minneapolis is bring many body cameras. There's already had a body camera. There is a plan in place right now for CBP and ICE to go body cameras across the entire agency. However, the money to do that is sitting with Congress fighting over the shutdown.

Margaret Brennan (11:00)

Okay. Well, one of the policy changes has to do with warrants requiring specifically ICE to secure a judicial warrant from a judge before entering a home to make an arrest. And that would be a change to the current ICE policy of relying on some administrative warrants. Listen to the DHS Secretary during his confirmation hearing, I said, we will not enter a home or a place of business without a judicial warrant unless we're

Interviewer/Moderator (11:28)

pursuing the individual that runs into a place of business or a house.

Margaret Brennan (11:34)

So the Secretary agreed to that change. When does that take place?

Tom Homan (11:42)

Look, I think we're already in discussions on that. You know, there are certain sections of law on a section I205 where it's legally you are illegally able to enter a home, and the 8th District Court has upheld that. But this is a discussion we're having right now. I'm talking. I talk to Secretary Mark every day, several times a day. We're talking with members of the White House. We're already working all these policies, not really policing how we. It's about execution. Again, the laws are the laws. If they don't like the laws that allow us entry in home, then change the law. But it's also. They want arrest warrants or just arrest an illegal alien. There's nothing in federal law says that. As a matter of fact, the law that Congress wrote says you can arrest an illegal alien with administrative warrant. That's what the federal statute says. Again, but they want judicial warrants just to arrest an illegal alien. They're asking for changes in policy that's really about changes in the law. Again, if they don't like what ISIS doing, they can change the law. It's that simple.

Margaret Brennan (12:41)

Well, I appreciate your argument about changing the law. There are many who would like to. But there's also the question of interpretation of existing law. And the acting ICE Director, Todd Lyons had sent a memo in May saying DHS Council reinterpreted existing law to allow for agents to make arrests without a judicial warrant. When we heard the new secretary say they won't enter without a judicial warrant. Was Secretary Mulling stating the current policy? Are you changing the Trump policy going forward from where it was in May?

Tom Homan (13:19)

I'm not going to speak for Secretary Mullen, but I think it was clear he's looking at he wasn't the secretary who made that statement. I think he's looking forward. But one of the first things I did, I've asked for a full legal review on that reinterpretation. I want to know exactly what I'm not a lawyer, but but I've asked DOJ to do a full review on that and we'll see where it comes. But I think Secretary Mullen meant what he said. I think he's looking for the future.

Margaret Brennan (13:43)

Well, we'll see where they land. Mr. Homan, thank you very much for your time this morning. FAIS Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.

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Margaret Brennan (14:51)

We go now to the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Jim Himes, who joins us from Greenwich, Connecticut. Good morning to you.

Jim Himes (15:00)

Good morning, Margaret.

Margaret Brennan (15:01)

So you just heard the borders are the White House representative here make his argument. Politically speaking, though, I mean, the shutdown was intended by Democrats to try to constrain ICE and how it had been acting. But practically speaking, ICE is already funded. In fact, it's one of the few DHS entities where people are getting paid because they had so much funding from the president's Last bill, and now their portfolio is expanding because they're in American airports across the country. So what did Democrats get out of this standoff?

Jim Himes (15:39)

Yeah, well, Margaret, that standoff is not done yet. Right. The President is illegally paying, apparently, TSA agents. You had the Senate, as you pointed out with Mr. Homan, pass a bipartisan bill unanimously in the United States Senate to say, look, let's fund everybody else and let's deal with this thorny issue about ice. And then you had the Republican House say, hell, no, we're not doing that, and, by the way, mock their own Republican leaders in the Senate. So, look, this thing is still very much live for one very simple reason. We can talk about House Senate changing law for one very simple reason, which is that the vast majority of Americans look at the way ICE behaved with the murder of two American citizens, with the constant knocking down of doors of American citizens without warrants, people dressed like they are, you know, airlifting into Fallujah to do the legitimate work of going after illegal aliens in this country. And they say that is not okay. And that's our position. Our position is very simply, we want ICE to act like the police force that they are, and that fight is not won yet. And look, I'm sorry it got tied up. I'm sorry that the Republicans on one side of the Capitol said this was a good idea, and on the other side of the Capitol, they called it a joke. But we're ready to negotiate around something that is not a radical demand. We just want ICE to act like proper police officers.

Margaret Brennan (17:00)

So in the meantime, the president's redirecting existing funding to pay TSA agents. You said he was illegally paying them. You believe that he is violating the law in this interpretation that the White House says they have.

Jim Himes (17:15)

Well, it's not that I believe it. It's that I know it. Right? I mean, if there's one power that Congress has, it is the power of the purse. Now, this president has, of course, consistently and universally said that he, in fact.

Margaret Brennan (17:26)

So they shouldn't be power.

Jim Himes (17:27)

But any American that went through 4th gr civics, no, they should be paid. They should have never been held hostage. And we had a deal come out unanimously from the Senate that if it had passed right now, they would be getting paid and we wouldn't be talking about the constitutional power of the purse. But Mike Johnson, leader of the House of Representatives, said, hell no to what his Republicans in the Senate said yes to.

Margaret Brennan (17:49)

So there were three Democrats, though, who got on board with Speaker Johnson, the House version of this bill Even without any new accountability measures in it. Congresswoman Glusenkamp Perez says she did so because she thinks it's wrong not to pay people for their work. And Democrats had set unattainable goals, she says, since the White House was agreeing to things like body cameras. Doesn't she have a point here that there is, as she put it, ideological purity that's getting in the way of working people?

Jim Himes (18:22)

So this is not a question of ideological purity. And I agree with Marie on one point, which is that people shouldn't be held hostage. And we can come back to that. But this is not extreme demands by any stretch of the imagination. Again, we're asking that guys not dress like Navy seals when they go into Minneapolis. We're asking that they wear badges the way every other police officer does, that they have warrants when they break down doors.

Margaret Brennan (18:43)

And some of those things have been agreed to.

Jim Himes (18:45)

Purity. This is basic adherence to the law. Yeah, well, okay. So it's all agreed to. Let's pass the law which codifies it. Because you know what? We don't trust the president when he says, okay, no masks, any more than we trust him when he says, oh, well, now I'm negotiating with the Iranians when he's not. Right. So if this is so easy, fine, let's codify it into law. But they're not, you know, they're not willing to do that. Now, where Marie is right, and this is important, we have gotten too used to using shutdowns as a mechanism of getting what we want legislatively. And what that implies is that people like TSA agents or folks that work in the federal government for the Department of Agriculture don't get paid when one party throws a tantrum. Right now, in this case, I happen to believe that the American people are with the Democratic Party and saying, you don't get to act like ISIS acted in Minneapolis. But we do need to get away from legislating through shutdown that is not consonant with the great country that we are.

Margaret Brennan (19:40)

Well, and they just want their airports and basic government to work. But on the point you raised, you said that the president's not really negotiating with Iran. Is that because you haven't been briefed as a member of Congress on the diplomacy, or you think he's flat out lying?

Jim Himes (19:56)

Oh, I think he's flat out lying last Sunday when he was told. And by the way, we're in exactly the same position today. You know, oil prices now $112 a barrel, and, you know, futures, when the stock market down 2% last Sunday, he realized, my God, I've got a financial cataclysm on Monday. So he just made it up that they're in negotiations with the Iranians. Look underneath that statement. The Iranians have now realized that they have the reins. They are controlling the Strait of Hormuz. Gasoline prices are up more than a dollar a gallon. And so the Iranians realize, holy smokes,

Margaret Brennan (20:26)

we've got a lot of leverage here in Islamabad today. There are a number of mediators who are in contact with the United States, saying they're talking about Iran. But neither the United States nor Iran are at that table at this moment in time. But, but further on the Iran point, I know you care about what's happening in Ukraine. Notably, President Zelensky of Ukraine has been in the Gulf in these past few days, and he said yesterday that Russia is providing satellite imagery to Iran, and that imagery consists of US Military bases. He also said Russia is giving signals intelligence and electronic intelligence to Iran. Do you know of evidence that Russia is actively helping Iran in its war against the United States?

Jim Himes (21:20)

Well, I have to be a little careful about this, Margaret, because I do review the intelligence, and I obviously can't speak about things that are classified, but, boy, I would sure not argue with President Zelensky on that point. And I would ask the American people to think about, what do you think Putin is doing right now? Over four years, we have been rightly, in my estimation, helping the Ukrainians exact a terrible toll on the Russians. So what do you think is happening? Meanwhile, as you know, we are letting the Iranians. So now the Iranians are getting billions of dollars, sell their oil to the Chinese so that they can buy drones from the Russians. We're letting the Russians sell oil so that they can get dollars to attack the Ukrainians and use those dollars to. To help attack our troops. I mean, you just couldn't make this stuff up in a Hollywood script.

Margaret Brennan (22:06)

Well, Secretary Rubio was asked about the degree of aid Russia is giving to Iran, and he minimized it. He says it's not making a difference on the battlefield. I know the French, I know the British have said that Russia and Iran are helping each other on drones here. When you heard Secretary Rubio's statement, what did you think he meant?

Jim Himes (22:29)

I think it is very much in Marco Rubio's interest as one of the chief cheerleaders of this war that the American people are now coming to realize is a catastrophe. Another quagmire for Marco Rubio to say things like, oh, they're not making a difference Well, I don't agree with Marco Rubio on that point. You know, the Russians have capabilities, things like using basic satellite technology, which you can do commercially, by the way, to find our aircraft carriers. Our military bases in the region, Margaret, right now, are supposedly uninhabitable. Why do you think that is?

Margaret Brennan (23:05)

Yeah. Before I let you go, Democrats have been making corruption a theme in their campaign against the president and to win back control of the House. Your fellow Democrat, Sheila Sherfilis McCormick of Florida has been found guilty on 25 ethics charges related to stealing millions of dollars in Covid relief money. Should she resign? Should she be expelled?

Jim Himes (23:29)

You know, if she doesn't resign, there will be a vote in the House and, you know, people will find reasons to support the congresswoman, just as Republicans found reasons to support George Santos. Should she resign at a time when we're at war, when gas prices are too high, that shouldn't happen. So I would hope that my colleague might avoid that outcome by choosing to resign. But it is also very important that both parties be consistent in punishing ethical lapses inside their own teams.

Margaret Brennan (24:03)

Okay, you hope she resigns. Thank you, Congressman, for all your insights today. We have to leave it there. We'll be right back.

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Margaret Brennan (24:40)

It is not hard to destroy a college. Last season, the podcast Campus Files brought you stories of fraternity drug rings, stolen body parts, campus cults, and more.

Campus Files Narrator (24:50)

And now Campus Files is back for another season.

Margaret Brennan (24:54)

There's a guy screaming into his phone. He's like, I just saw Charlie Kirk

Interviewer/Moderator (24:57)

get assassinated right in front of me.

Campus Files Narrator (24:59)

Every week is a new episode and a new story.

Margaret Brennan (25:02)

It was so chaotic, it's almost like

Jim Himes (25:03)

a university under siege.

Margaret Brennan (25:05)

Listen to and follow Campus Files, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to Face the Nation. We turn now to former US Surgeon General Dr. Jerome Adams, who joins us this morning from Indianapolis. Good morning to you, Doctor.

Dr. Jerome Adams (25:24)

Thanks for having me, Margaret. And I'd like to start by saying that the most important thing for your viewers to understand is that America's most pressing health threat today isn't opioids or obesity. It's mistrust 70% of Americans say they support childhood vaccines and school mandates, yet a similar majority say they do not trust health information from Robert Kennedy and say they would not trust Surgeon general nominee Casey Means. So a failure to acknowledge this plummeting trust, or worse, if we're seeing to accelerate it, is going to hurt Americans. And actually, Margaret, according to Republican pollster Fabrizio Ward, it's gonna hurt Republicans in November elections.

Margaret Brennan (25:59)

Well, that's not where I was going with the question. But yes, I've seen some of that polling, and it says that the MAHA health guidance resonates more with voters than the vaccine skepticism. So Republicans seem to be signaling what would be more resonant with the majority of voters. But in terms of the policy at this moment in time, you were President Trump's surgeon general during his first term. There are now more than 1500 confirmed measles cases in the US since January. According to the CDC. There is this spike out in Utah. Why can't the existing health infrastructure stop this?

Dr. Jerome Adams (26:41)

Well, that's a great question. And you have to start off by understanding that almost 20,000 people have been cut from HHS. And so normally we have measles cases every year. We had about 250 in 2024. We had about 2000 last year. As you mentioned, we're at 1500 already this year. But normally we're able to control those outbreaks because of the cdc, because of public health infrastructure and funding. All of that has been cut. And now instead of one case turning into two or three and being stopped, it's turning into 20 and 50 in 100 cases. And we're also seeing falling vaccination rates. A broad group of states are falling below that 95% threshold for herd immunity for measles. Utah, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, all below that 95% threshold. And the further we get below that, the more these outbreaks explode.

Margaret Brennan (27:34)

Well, you mentioned the memo. This was a pollster who continues to consult for the president and for the Republicans, Tony Fabrizio. In the memo, he writes policies related to vaccines and vaccine safety need to be addressed carefully and with nuance. That's because overall, a slim majority of voters are not convinced there are negative health impacts from vaccines. He was speaking about how MAHA and MAGA need to continue to work together for the benefit of the Republican Party. But by saying there's a slim majority who are unconvinced, he's making it sound like your party really is struggling with this, frankly.

Dr. Jerome Adams (28:16)

Well, they absolutely are. And I understand why parents are frustrated with the healthcare system. It is not working for people. And we've always, as physicians, been taught to respect patient autonomy. But the difference here is you're seeing a health secretary and an infrastructure that is actively sowing distrust in vaccines and in the healthcare system. I believe we can do both. I believe we can respect patients autonomy. We need to make sure we're facilitating those conversations between patients and their doctors or their pharmacists or nurses, while at the same time telling people what we know to be true. And that is that childhood vaccines like measles, mumps, rubella are safe, they're effective, and they're the most important public health achievement of our lifetimes. We're not going to make America healthier if we go backwards on vaccines.

Margaret Brennan (29:09)

So the chair of the Health committee, Senator Bill Cassidy, who's also a physician, asked Casey Mink, she is the doctor you referenced who is the choice of the Trump administration to be the next surgeon general. He asked her whether she would recommend a mother vaccinate her child against measles. Here's the part of the exchange from her confirmation hearing.

Interviewer/Moderator (29:31)

You're the nation's doctor. Would you encourage her to have her child vaccinated?

Margaret Brennan (29:34)

I'm not an individual's doctor. And every individual needs to talk to their doctor before putting a medication in their body. I absolutely am supportive of the measles vaccine. And I do believe vaccines save lives and are important part of the public health strategy. So the doctor did say she is supportive of the measles vaccine. Why does that stop short of what you would want to hear from someone in that role?

Dr. Jerome Adams (29:56)

Well, number one, I watched the hearing. This was after much pressing and equivocating, number one. And she said she's not an individual's doctor. That is correct. But you're applying to be the nation's doctor. For me, this isn't personal or political, number one, and I've talked to you about this, it's about her not having the basic qualifications to do the job. She does not have an active medical license and would be the first surgeon general ever to be in the role to not have an active medical license. But beyond that, to the point you brought up, in the midst of a massive measles outbreak, America needs a surgeon general who can clearly stand behind vaccines. When I came in, we had the opioid epidemic and an overdose crisis. Imagine if I had said, you know, as surgeon general, it's not my place to tell people to take naloxone, the opioid overdose reversal agent. They should talk to their doctor. About it. That would not be acceptable in that circumstance. And it's not acceptable to have a Surgeon General who equivocates on vaccines, much less one who can't actually practice medicine and meet the qualifications to be a physician in the court.

Margaret Brennan (30:56)

Well, the doctor apparently has an inactive medical license that she says she voluntarily placed on inactive status. And I want to talk about this because it seems a feature, not a bug. Right. Because the HHS Secretary has described Dr. Means as being perfect for this job. He says the Surgeon General is a symbol of moral authority who stands against the financial and institutional gravities of that corporatized medicine. He said she was a great student and surgical resident, but she left traditional medicine because patients weren't getting better. And that's why she should be the disruptor in this moment. So when you say there's distrust, how do you respond to those who say disruption is the purpose of this selection?

Dr. Jerome Adams (31:45)

Well, again, number one, a recent Axios poll came out, and that poll showed that 68% of people who were questioned said they would not trust health advice from a Surgeon General. Casey Means. So you're not going to restore trust if preemptively the public is telling you we're not trusting the person you're putting forward. And again, I don't want to underplay this. Every physician, every nurse, every pharmacist and the public health service corps has to maintain an active license. I had to fire people for not having an active medical license. So this is not about disruption. Kasey Means can be a part of this administration. She can advise the White House. She can advise Secretary Kennedy as her brother does. But that does not mean she's qualified to be Surgeon General of the United States after dropping out of her residency and not having an active license.

Margaret Brennan (32:37)

Yep. And just a note, there is also no Senate confirmed CDC director currently amid the crisis. Let me ask you about social media as well, because there were these big cases this past week. A New Mexico jury found that Meta platforms violated consumer protection laws by misleading users about the safety of of Facebook, of Instagram and WhatsApp. Out in California, there was another lawsuit linking Meta to a young woman's depression. As a doctor, are you convinced that social media has a direct link to health?

Dr. Jerome Adams (33:11)

As a doctor and as a parent, I'm convinced of these facts. I have three teenage kids. We know based on Surgeon General Murphy's report that there is increasing and very valid evidence out there showing links between social media use, particularly at a younger age, in increasing anxiety, increasing depression, less sleep, which actually leads to mental health problems and also obesity. And so we need to as a society understand the harms that are coming from social media, similarly to the harms that surgeon generals have pointed out before coming from cigarettes. We also need to, similar to cigarettes, point out the fact that these substances, meaning social media platforms, are incredibly addictive. And we're hearing again in these, in these lawsuits that they were specifically designed to addict children again the way cigarette manufacturers tried to addict children back in the day. So I'm happy that we're having a conversation about this. The policy is going to be hard, but Australia's already done it. They've banned social media for people under 16. You have 25 states, I believe, that are to the point where they're discussing or have legislation keeping social media and phones out of schools. And we need to, to really understand the harm that's occurring to our children because of this unfettered access to screen time and social media.

Margaret Brennan (34:31)

Before I let you go, Secretary Kennedy spoke to the Conservative Political Action Conference yesterday. He said he's worried about cell phones and recommends parents don't let their kids sleep with phones beside the bed. Would you agree with that recommendation?

Dr. Jerome Adams (34:45)

Yes, actually. Aap, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Health Department of California all say that we should not allow cell phones in children's bedrooms. It keeps them up at night and subjects them to bullying constantly. And yes, it is a good practice. And I agree with the secretary on this. I want to find common ground with the secretary. This is one place where we agree we should not be exposing young people to cell phones and social media, particularly in their bedrooms at night.

Margaret Brennan (35:13)

All right, Doctor, thank you for your insights today. We'll be right back.

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Margaret Brennan (35:45)

for more on the ongoing war in Iran, we're joined by Iran policy analyst Karim Sajapour as well as former CENTCOM commander and CBS News contributor retired General Frank McKenzie who joins us this morning from Tampa. Good morning to you both. Karim, let me start with you. Today in Islamabad you have Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt. These self proclaimed mediators gathered together to talk about how to deescalate the war. Iran so far hasn't responded to the 15 points. The Trump administration put forward, and Rubio said he's not even sure who they'd be negotiating with. So what is the reality of who we're negotiating with and are we even negotiating?

Karim Sajapour (36:26)

Well, Margaret, this is a regime, the Islamic Republic of Iran, which came to power in 1979, taking American diplomats hostage, and now they think they have the global economy hostage, and they're fighting a war of survival. They're also fighting a war of revenge against President Trump. So at the moment, they don't feel compelled to compromise, it seems, because the trend lines are oil prices are going up, American public opinion about the war is going down, and many of these leaders that we're hoping to negotiate with are right now living underground, fighting for their lives.

Margaret Brennan (36:58)

Well, to your point on that difference, that asymmetric difference in power, General, I want to bring you in here because one of the things that Iran had been waiting to do was activate its militias or the militias it supports in Yemen, the Houthis, over the weekend, they jumped into the fight and fired on Israel. Do you think that this is a game changer, given that they could not just disrupt the Strait of Hormuz, but another passageway through the Red Sea?

Tom Homan (37:29)

Margaret?

Interviewer/Moderator (37:30)

I don't think it will be a game changer. Their ability to attack Israel is quite limited. Yes, they will have the ability to further stop slow traffic through the Bab El Mandeb going up into the Suez Canal. We have the ability to go down there and prevent that. It will require additional resources, but we have those resources and we can certainly do it if that becomes necessary.

Margaret Brennan (37:49)

Well, the president has made clear that he needs to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. His language has been contradictory on some of these points as to who's going to do it and when. What's the military reality of making it passable?

Interviewer/Moderator (38:05)

We're on our way to doing that now, Margaret, this is part of a plan that's been in existence for many years. What we're doing right now is we're reducing Iranian ability to target ships in the strait through their short range missiles, their drones and other activities. We do that by maintaining air superiority over southern Iran on a 247 basis, looking for where these missiles are and striking them relentlessly. Once we reduce those to a very low level, then you'll be able to go in, if necessary, sweep for mines. I'm not certain they put mines in the water yet. I predict eventually they will. It's their nature. But we have the ability to do this. We're on plan. I'll be Honest with you, Margaret. I've simulated this many years in many positions at Central Command. We're a little further along than we would have expected to be at this point. In all the simulations that I've seen.

Margaret Brennan (38:51)

I'm going to guess in your simulations, you looked at what would happen to the Strait of Hormuz, even though the President said no one ever thought of it. You thought of it, didn't you?

Interviewer/Moderator (39:01)

The US Military thinks of a lot of things. We certainly have. Thought of the Strait of Hormuz, thought of Kharg Island. Think of all those islands on the southern littoral of Iran.

Margaret Brennan (39:09)

Karim. The President said the Israelis killed the second tier pragmatist types that he had thought he might be able to go and negotiate with. In recent days, the name that has emerged is the Parliament speaker, Ghaliba. What do we know about him? Is he someone you can make a deal with?

Karim Sajapour (39:27)

Khali Baf is importantly a former senior Revolutionary Guard commander and a close advisor to Mujtibah Khamenei. Under different circumstances, he is someone who aspires to be Iran's modern strongman leader. I've actually met him in the World Economic Forum in Davos. Just the fact that he shows up in Davos shows you a little bit about his worldview. But under the current circumstances, no one in that Iranian system is capable of changing the longtime ideology of antipathy toward America and toward Israel. Even if they wanted to explain that.

Margaret Brennan (40:03)

If you would. Because what we hear from the White House and from Israel is that pressure will break them. You're saying they're unbreakable at the moment,

Karim Sajapour (40:14)

and this could change in the future. But we haven't seen any cracks in the regime's resolve. We haven't seen any crack shock cracks in the cohesion of its security forces. And given the fact that so many of its top officials, including the Supreme Leader, have been killed, it's a regime which is not prepared to compromise or change its ideology. They actually believe that antipathy towards America is part of their identity. And if you capitulate on that, it actually doesn't prolong your shelf life. It actually could hasten your death.

Margaret Brennan (40:50)

So if there's not a negotiated settlement, how does this end?

Karim Sajapour (40:55)

I don't see any possibility of a resolution to this conflict. I think the US and Iran are miles apart when it comes to their goals here. Now, I think we could see a potential ceasefire that opens the Strait of Hormuz, which would shift this back from a hot war back to a cold war. But there's no possibility in my view so long as this regime is in power of a U S Iran normalization.

Margaret Brennan (41:21)

General, do you agree with that assessment? I mean, it does seem that the Trump administration is acknowledging the regime will stay if they are at least offering to negotiate with the regime so it would allow for them to remain in power.

Interviewer/Moderator (41:38)

The primary goal of Iranian statecraft, Margaret, is survival of the regime. Back in the late 1980s they signed a truce with Iraq when things were going very bad for Iran and Iranian history it's known as drinking from the poison chalice. I believe that they will break. I believe that they will come to terms. And it may be an imperfect solution, but I think it would be one that would include opening the Strait of Hormuz, possibly some deal on the missiles, on the missile systems. The nuclear program is certainly a possibility, but I believe eventually they'll make a deal. But we need to keep the pressure up. We need to continue to press them very hard because that is in fact the only thing they will respond to.

Margaret Brennan (42:18)

So the President had posted he's postponed the deadline to open the Strait of Hormuz as a result of the Iranian government asking for it. He says he's shifted that to April 6th at 8pm we also hear from the Secretary of State that he's talking to the allies about a post conflict necessity of having other countries help to essentially police the strait. And he said that you will need tankers to have military escorts. So this doesn't sound like this is a short term project. This sounds like even if combat ends, we're going to be talking about a military presence in the region for some time. Am I wrong, Margaret?

Interviewer/Moderator (43:06)

You could be right. Let's see what happens. I think a negotiate. There are two ways the Strait of Hormuz can be opened. It can be opened if the Iranians negotiate with us to open it. And of course that's the desired solution. The other solution would be if they don't and they decide to fight, we can open the strait under that condition too. The second condition is obviously a lot more intensive in terms of ships and equipment that would have have to bring into the region and yes, help from our allies would certainly be would be very useful in that case. We have the ability to open the Strait of Hormuz under any condition that the Iranians choose to exist under.

Margaret Brennan (43:39)

Does it appear to you that one of the contingencies that the White House is planning for, given that they're continuing to move troops into the region and you have these marines who are moving into the area as well. Are they preparing for a ground troop presence and what does that look like?

Interviewer/Moderator (44:01)

Margaret, for many years, we've considered options along the southern coast of Iran. Seizing islands, seizing small bases, typically raids. And a raid is an operation with a planned withdrawal. You're not going to stay, but some of those islands you could seize and hold. That would have a couple effects. First of all, it would be profoundly humiliating for Iran and would give us great weight in negotiations. The second, the example of Kharg island, which everyone talks about, if you seize Kharg island, you really can shut down the Iranian oil economy completely. And the beauty of seizing it is you're not destroying it, you're retaining it for further use by the global economy and possibly for return to Iran under certain conditions. So all of these things, this is not back of the, these are not back of the envelope calculations. These are things we've been working on for many years. And I think we're right to threaten the entire littoral to hold all these options out there. And I think the president's message is spot on when he talks about all these alternatives.

Margaret Brennan (44:56)

But can he achieve his goals without ground troops? Which is what the Secretary of State says. And how does this end? How do you call this? A success?

Interviewer/Moderator (45:08)

Sure. I think a success. Looks like the Strait of Hormuz is open. We get some kind of deal on the ballistic missile program, some kind of deal on the nuclear program. That's probably about as much as you could hope for. But I think they're very discreet things that for me, at least from an operational military perspective, would be. Would look like victory. I believe all of those things are actually within our grasp. We just need to continue. Iran will ultimately respond to the use of force. They know and understand it perhaps better than we have in the past. This administration is willing to use force. Other administrations have been thoroughly deterred by Iran. President Trump is not deterred by Iran.

Margaret Brennan (45:46)

Yeah, well, the president says he wants a deal, even though I know you think that's going to be pretty hard to get to. And he said Vice President Vance is going to be directly involved here. Karim, what does that signal to you?

Karim Sajapour (46:01)

Well, the Iranians actually want to negotiate with Vice President Vance for a couple of reasons. Number one, they think he comes from the anti war wing of the Republican Party. And number two, they think because of the fact that J.D. vance wants to run for president, he's incentivized to want to wrap this war up pretty quickly. And I agree with something General McKenzie said, which is we know over the last five decades that this regime is only compromised under really clear circumstances when it faces existential pressure coupled with a clear diplomatic exit. I think it's feeling existential pressure. I don't think they've yet seen a clear diplomatic exit.

Margaret Brennan (46:38)

Well, gentlemen, thank you both for lending us your expertise for this conversation. We'll have to leave it there. We'll be back in a moment. This week could mark the beginning of a new era for human spaceflight. NASA's Artemis 2 mission is scheduled to launch on April 1, carrying four astronauts in a loop around the moon before they return to Earth 10 days later. The crew, three Americans and one Canadian, includes the first woman, the first person of color, and the first Canadian expected to travel to the moon. It's the first crewed lunar mission in more than 50 years, and if all goes according to plan, you can see full coverage here on CBS News and next Sunday on Face THE Nation. That's it for us today. Thank you all for watching. Until next week. For Face THE Nation, I'm Margaret Brennan. Today's guest was where White House borders are Tom Homan, Connecticut Democratic Congressman Jim Himes, former U.S. surgeon General Dr. Jerome Adams, former CENTCOM commander retired Gen. Frank McKenzie and Karim Sajapour, an Iran analyst and senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. The senior executive producer of Face the Nation is Mary Hager Laird. The executive producer of Face the Nation is and she. This broadcast was directed by Shelly Schwartz. Face the Nation originates from CBS News in Washington. For more Face the Nation, we're online@facethenation.com and on YouTube. We're also rebroadcast on our CBS News 24. 7 streaming network at 12:30 and 2:00pm on Sundays. It's available through our apps CBS News and Paramount. Plus,

Brooke Gladstone (48:21)

There's a lot going on right now. Mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air. I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's on the Media. Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how to head them off at the pass that's on the Media special. Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Campus Files Narrator (48:50)

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Margaret Brennan (48:50)

I'm really back.

Tom Homan (48:51)

School spirits returns.

Jim Himes (48:53)

Why am I here?

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Not dead, right?

Campus Files Narrator (48:55)

Disruption on this campus will not be tolerated.

Venmo Advertiser (49:01)

If I look crazy, it's because that's how I feel. I don't know how to live in two worlds.

Tom Homan (49:06)

Secrets lurk.

Margaret Brennan (49:08)

There are others beneath the surface.

Campus Files Narrator (49:10)

They're not like us. We need to get out of here.

Tom Homan (49:14)

Now School Spirits New season now streaming only on Paramount Plus.