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- [00:00]
Amanda Knox
A 15 year old girl who chewed through a rope to escape a serial killer. I used my front teeth to saw.
- [00:08]
David Duchovny
On the rope in my mouth.
- [00:10]
Amanda Knox
He's been convicted of murdering two young women but suspected of many more.
- [00:15]
David Duchovny
Maybe there's another one in that area.
- [00:18]
Amanda Knox
And now new leads that could solve these cold cases.
- [00:22]
David Duchovny
They could be a victim that we have no idea he killed.
- [00:26]
Amanda Knox
Stolen Voices of Dole Valley breaks the silence on August 19th. Follow us now so you don't miss an episode. Lemonade.
- [00:42]
David Duchovny
Hey, just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of Fail Better Ad Free with Lemonade Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, the Sarah Silverman Podcast and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show in Apple Podcasts. Make life suck Less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Amanda Knox is an author and public speaker who is exonerated in one of the highest profile criminal cases of the 21st century. When she was studying abroad in Italy in 2007, her roommate was sexually assaulted and murdered. Amanda and her boyfriend at the time were arrested and convicted of murder along with the third suspect. After serving several years in prison, Amanda and her then boyfriend were acquitted of the murder after an appeal process. Since being released from prison, Amanda has sought answers for the way the Italian criminal justice system works and also sought to provide her own answers to the public. She's published two books about the series of events, one immediately after her time in prison and another earlier this year. She is now the executive producer of a new scripted series, the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, which follows her journey to connect with the Italian prosecutor on her case. It traces her experiences over many years, including her time in prison and other behind the scenes experiences the public never got to see. We talk about tactics used by law enforcement and how she talks about all of this to her four year old daughter. Oh, and Amanda brought along her husband, Christopher Robinson, who co hosts her podcast Hard Knocks with her. If you hear someone chiming in, that's who that is. Here's our conversation. I'm so fascinated by, and forgive me for being fascinated.
- [03:01]
Amanda Knox
No, be fascinated. Why not?
- [03:03]
David Duchovny
I don't know. Well.
- [03:10]
Amanda Knox
Tell me. Actually, you Know what? Tell me your worst experience of your life. So at least we're on. Come on, it's an even playing field then.
- [03:19]
David Duchovny
No, it isn't. You win. Oh, spit, take. You will win. You will win that contest. But I, you know, I've dealt with tabloid shame and all that stuff. We'll talk about that. Yeah, that's fine. And I give you my two cents. It's. It's not. It's nothing like. Like yours. But what I am fascinated by and have been the false confession. Fascinating to me.
- [03:44]
Amanda Knox
Let's go.
- [03:44]
David Duchovny
Because there. There is a. That's where I'm guilty of going. You know, I'd never. I'd never give a false. Yeah, right. See, there's your face, I think. You know what?
- [03:57]
Amanda Knox
Have you ever been gaslit in your life?
- [04:03]
David Duchovny
Yeah, I was raised.
- [04:05]
Amanda Knox
Okay. You have parents. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
- [04:10]
David Duchovny
That I'm in right now, figuring I'm in some kind of reality. I'm not sure that I'm in. But yeah, sure, I've been. No, nobody's ever, like, gaslit me on purpose, I don't think, like, for. For the specific reason of getting me to do something or say something or feel a certain way. Sure. They've. Sure I've been told certain worldviews that may not be true or whatever and, you know. But. No, I would say no.
- [04:32]
Amanda Knox
Have you ever heard of the term cognitive opening?
- [04:38]
David Duchovny
No.
- [04:38]
Amanda Knox
Okay. I'm not. This isn't a quiz. You're. Okay, you are passing this quiz.
- [04:43]
David Duchovny
I'm starting to feel uncomfortable with Chris, and I'm feeling ganged up on, even though he's not saying anything.
- [04:48]
Amanda Knox
No, no.
- [04:49]
David Duchovny
So this is open.
- [04:50]
Amanda Knox
So I've. I've been curious about what makes someone susceptible in an interrogation room. And there are certain things that are kind of universally accepted, like say you're a young person and you're more susceptible. Say you have a low iq. You're more susceptible to being tricked, to being duped, to being coerced. Okay. There's also something called the cognitive opening. That tip. What I first heard this term. It was actually when people were studying how people become extremists, how they become terrorists, how people are going. You know, going about their regular lives, and then all of a sudden, their complete worldview shifts and they become radicalized. And one thing that is pretty in common with that is that at some point in their life, they're going about their life, and then something really tragic and unexpected happens. And they have what's called a cognitive opening, which is another word for an existence like. Yes. So, like, everything that you sort of thought you could count on in the world is now up in the. And it leaves you more open and susceptible for some kind of other ideology or some kind of other narrative to make its way in and alter your perception of reality, change your perception of reality sometimes irrevocably. And I think that that is true for, you know, and that leads to people to be recruited by, you know, radical groups. It also is a similar thing that happens to a lot of people who end up finding themselves in interrogation rooms. Like, in my case, I'm just going about my life, going to school, and I come home one day and my house is a crime scene, and one of my roommates is dead, completely unexpected, completely shocked. And I'm left feeling like I don't know what I can count on. So I just sort of follow the direction of the adults in the room, who, for me, are the cops. And when the cops lead me on this journey, I enter into a room with one set of expectations about what's going to happen to me. And then I am, you know, badgered, I'm bullied, I'm. I'm hit, I'm yelled at until I don't really know what is true or not anymore. Like this. That is in part due to the fact that even in the days leading up to my final interrogation, you know, I was interrogated for 53 hours over five days. But there's like a final interrog interrogation in the middle of the night. You know, sleep deprivation also plays a role. Like there's all these different things that. That's how it happens.
- [07:28]
David Duchovny
Well, here's what I was thinking, because many things there, because I played cops and I played in. In. In my acting career. And so I talked to cops. And what I was struck by when I talked to this one cop before I did a show called Aquarius was, you can lie to a suspect. Yeah, that's up.
- [07:53]
Amanda Knox
I did not know that. Yeah, I.
- [07:55]
David Duchovny
It's like bringing a false witness in, you know, and they could have lied to you and said, what's the. The boy's name? Raphael.
- [08:02]
Amanda Knox
Rafael.
- [08:03]
David Duchovny
Rafael. He said this or said that. Whether or not he did. They could say that to you to get, you know, to like, to get you off balance or whatever. So that is fucked up. And I understand that that's gaslighting as well. But also what I'm fascinated by because of this podcast is a lot of the way people react to failure is shame or too much memory. It can't forget it, you know, there's. There's a sweet spot that we need to get to as humans, which is kind of in between forgetting and moving on and resolution and moving on. But, you know, in your case, it's. It's so very difficult because it's such a dramatic pivot point of your life. But that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is this. Now, scientists know. Scientists know. Brain scientists know that when you remember something, you're not actually remembering the thing. You're remembering the last time you remembered it.
- [09:05]
Amanda Knox
Mm.
- [09:06]
David Duchovny
So now when I started to think about you being interrogated like that, just because I've done this podcast and have access to that kind of knowledge about memory.
- [09:14]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [09:15]
David Duchovny
I started to see. Because I told you, I said I would never give a false confession. I started to see. Yes. When you started to say, I don't know what I'm. I don't know. I'm telling you this thing, but I don't know if it's true. And all that stuff is once they get you to imagine something and you say it as if it's a memory, the next time you remember, it's as memorable as a true memory, you know, because you're never going to get back to the thing, the moment in the past. So I think that getting false confession is actually not easy, but a lot. A lot more. There's a way to get at it, you know, there's a way to get it and has to do with lying and make. And also to make you imagine.
- [09:59]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [10:00]
David Duchovny
Make you say, why do you think that happened? Or what might have happened.
- [10:05]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [10:05]
David Duchovny
And all of a sudden, now you're in a world that's not even real anymore. Now you're just.
- [10:10]
Amanda Knox
Did you talk with police officers about the method that they use? So the.
- [10:16]
David Duchovny
I'll tell you the one thing that I learned, though. This is what the guy told me. He said they had the suspect and they knew that he was guilty. And he said. He said to him, you know, we're going to get the. You should. You should tell us what's up now, because it'll be better for you if you just tell us the truth. Right. There's always that one. You see that on TV all the time. Because we're going to get the retinal image back from the lab. And I'm like, what's the retinal image? He said, well. And the guy's like, what do you mean? And it's like, well, you know, the last thing a person Sees before they die. It's, it's on their retinal. Their retina. So we're going to get that from the lab. And I'm betting, you know, the last thing on her eye is you. You know, so it's not even just.
- [11:05]
Amanda Knox
Lying, it's just pseudo science and that.
- [11:09]
David Duchovny
You know, a, you know, not very smart or a not very educated person is going to go, oh shit, there is a retinal image.
- [11:17]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [11:17]
David Duchovny
Might as well play ball now. So that was my experience and my sense was that is fucked up.
- [11:24]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, it is.
- [11:24]
David Duchovny
You shouldn't be able to do that.
- [11:26]
Amanda Knox
I agree. And that's why I go in front of, you know, my state legislature and try to ban police deception and that.
- [11:33]
David Duchovny
Would you call it police deception?
- [11:34]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, it's deception. Yeah.
- [11:35]
David Duchovny
So, and what is their, why are they saying they need to be able to do that when they, when they respond to you?
- [11:43]
Amanda Knox
Well, what they've literally said to me and in front of, you know, the you know, collective politicians who are there is they say, well, we need to lie to our constituents in order to get our, to do our job. And it just, I mean, so here's in their defense, let's put our, ourselves in the, in the position of the cops. They believe that everyone is lying to them. Right. So they, yeah, they, they just assume that everyone, even if they're, you know, not guilty of the crime per se, that everyone is self interestedly recreating the truth. Yeah. Get you know, like to, to just, they're not wanting to be givers of the full information that they might have. And so they're just always assuming that everyone is lying to them. And the only way to even the playing field is for cops to be able to lie. So that there is an exchange. There's this like psychological dance that's going on. And, and in the thing that they are trained to do, there are like their steps of breaking down a person's resistance to telling the truth is how they say it. Like, so they think that everyone is resistant to telling the truth. So here are these step by step ways for me to get through your resistance. Right. So they will first call into question your narrative, refuse to let you even answer the question fully, interrupt you, make you feel like anything that you say is wrong. That either leads you to a place of feeling discouraged or demoralized or confused because you're thinking, why are the police saying like I'm telling the truth. How many times do I have to say the truth? Why don't they believe me?
- [13:26]
David Duchovny
Plus you want to help them.
- [13:28]
Amanda Knox
Exactly.
- [13:28]
David Duchovny
Because they're innocent, you want to help them.
- [13:30]
Amanda Knox
Right? Then they introduce a new idea, which is, we know you're a good guy, right? You're a good guy. We want to be on the same page. So this is going to be better for you if you just work with us. And, you know, this is called minimization. When they make it seem like, oh, you know, whatever your involvement with the crime may be, it probably wasn't even like a big thing. Like, if they think that you were participating a thing, they might minimize your role, or they might say, oh, if you hurt that girl, maybe she was asking for it, maybe she hit you first. They start introducing themes that make it seem like what you did was justified, but they don't give you the option of not being guilty of the crime. And, and then what they do in as like a last ditch resort, but what something that they did with me is they say, well, maybe, just maybe, you don't even have any memories of this because you were so traumatized by it. And so now what we need to do is we need to uncover your repressed memories. And one of the cops started smacking me in the back of the head. Like memories are marbles. And if you just hit the back of the bottle fast enough, they'll come out like that. This sort of pressuring you to feel like anything that you truly remember is called into question, and then inviting you to imagine a repressed memory that fits with the narrative that they want to hear from you. Because they're always sort of offering you a narrative that is good for them, and they'll either be explicit or implicit about it. Like, they might say, well, we know that you met this person. What did you do with them? Like, very suggestive. And instead of saying, we know he killed him and you want, you know, whatever, like, so there's, there's ways that they can dance around this, like the rules and when. One of the things that, that, that really bothers me about this whole issue is did they. Did the cops that you talked to ever talk about the difference between an interview and interrogation?
- [15:24]
David Duchovny
No.
- [15:25]
Amanda Knox
Okay, so what am I in right now? This is an interview, sir, because you may well actually. The door. Yeah, yeah, right, right. So this is my biggest pet peeve is interrogations. Custodial interrogations are special, like, have special legal qualifications, right? It means that you have the right to an attorney. It means that you have the right to remain silent. You know, like, there are lots of things that you have rights to if you Are being interrogated. Yes. There are similar rights. Like if I'm, if I'm. If. Yeah, they don't call it Miranda rights, but they have a similar version of that. What they will do is they will say, well, we're not interrogating you, we're just asking you questions. This is just an open ended interview. But. And you're free to leave. But there's a door closed. They've closed the door and there's a cop between you and the door. And it does not feel like you are allowed to leave because they're screaming at you and hitting you like. So what they say is that I was never interrogated at all really. That I was just being interviewed and therefore I did not have the right to an attorney.
- [16:34]
David Duchovny
And you just freely gave a confession.
- [16:36]
Amanda Knox
Right, exactly. Just spontaneously off the top of my head without any kind of coercive pressure from them.
- [16:42]
David Duchovny
Well, this gets me to another part that's fascinating to me is your relationship with the prosecutor. And I think this is part of the Hulu show, right?
- [16:53]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Oh, yeah. This is the, you know, big story.
- [16:56]
David Duchovny
But I got to this through your book.
- [16:58]
Amanda Knox
Oh, great.
- [16:59]
David Duchovny
It's only a couple months old, right?
- [17:00]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I was gonna bring you a copy, but we Woke up at 3am to get here and we accidentally left it in the hotel room.
- [17:07]
David Duchovny
Enough of your excus.
- [17:10]
Amanda Knox
I will send it to you, I promise. It's right there. Yeah, it's just in West Hollywood.
- [17:17]
David Duchovny
But to me, the, the most fascinating. Not the most fascinating, but super dramatic, I would say, probably when I, when I look at the story being told again, you know, with this new information, I guess, which is the relationship with what's his name?
- [17:34]
Amanda Knox
Giuliano Mignini.
- [17:35]
David Duchovny
Yeah, you, you keep saying that.
- [17:37]
Amanda Knox
Okay.
- [17:40]
David Duchovny
It's so fucking dramatic that you pursued this relationship, got this relationship. And I want you to talk about that a little bit.
- [17:48]
Amanda Knox
Sure.
- [17:49]
David Duchovny
You can talk about. With respect to the show.
- [17:52]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, absolutely.
- [17:53]
David Duchovny
But here's what I want to throw out first is what I hate about this is like first of all, the way you recount him as a prosecutor is he is talking about your character and he's saying she's capable of this. Or you know, this woman is not who she appears to be. She's sexually deviant. You know, this, this, this crazy story that they made up about you.
- [18:20]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [18:20]
David Duchovny
In order to turn you into somebody who kills somebody.
- [18:23]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [18:26]
David Duchovny
When you finally get him and you talk to him. How many years later?
- [18:31]
Amanda Knox
Let's see. So the last time. So I was arrested in 2007. I was on trial until 2015, but the last time that he was involved was a case was in 2011. So the last time I saw him in court was in 2011, and then I met him in person in 2022. Okay, so this guy's 11 years, right? Yeah.
- [18:54]
David Duchovny
And the. And safe to say this is probably the most famous case that he ever tried.
- [18:59]
Amanda Knox
That and the Monster of Florence. Yeah, those are the two.
- [19:01]
David Duchovny
I don't know the Monster of Florence.
- [19:04]
Amanda Knox
So. Yeah, so the Monster of Florence. Yeah. So, yes. So the Monster of Florence case is like Jack the Ripper of Italy.
- [19:10]
David Duchovny
Okay, this is my beef. Not with you, but the way that it was, the way that the dialogue goes, is you're coming into this guy. You're looking for an apology. I know you are. We. You'd have to be. You do. And also to say, I'm not gonna put words in your mouth. But what I see is somebody saying, look, you didn't get. You didn't kill me. I'm. I'm. I have a baby. I'm thriving. I have a husband. I'm. You know, if you have guilt, you can let go of that. You didn't. You know, I'm doing okay. It didn't ruin me. So many things like that, putting words in your mouth. You can say that none of that is true, and I believe you because it's your life. But he ends up saying, now that I get to know you, I see that you could not have done this, which is such bullshit because it means that he made a false gut assumption at first to see that you could do it, and now he's making a false gut assumption to say that you couldn't do it. Now, I can't. I personally can't sit here and say, you're not capable of murder. You're not capable of murder. I'm not capable of murder. My gut's not that good.
- [20:24]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [20:25]
David Duchovny
Nobody's is. I don't even. I don't care if you're a fucking prosecutor for your entire life. So I got really pissed off at that fair. You know what I mean?
- [20:35]
Amanda Knox
I'm sorry. How are you doing?
- [20:39]
David Duchovny
Well, it goes back to. For me, it goes back to, like the OJ Thing, where people on the airplane said, well, you know, he was just really relaxed on the airplane. He wasn't. I mean, if you just killed your wife, you wouldn't be relaxed. Well, we don't know. Hey. What people are capable of and b, how they're going to respond afterwards. What. How good they are at acting.
- [20:58]
Amanda Knox
Sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, that's one thing I've always said was, why is everyone looking at me? They should be looking at the evidence.
- [21:03]
David Duchovny
But it also. Yes, it also goes back to, like, how you. You were accused of being too cavalier or, you know, hugging your boyfriend, all that. Like. Oh, a person. Either you'd say a person that murders doesn't do that, or you go, oh, that's a really terrible murder, because look at their. Right, all crap. Kind of shitty psychologizing about what people are capable of. My personal opinion is people are capable of anything.
- [21:29]
Amanda Knox
Sure, sure.
- [21:30]
David Duchovny
I just. I thought this is not a guy who should be deciding people's lives. Well.
- [21:35]
Amanda Knox
And, you know, he's retired now, so we don't have to worry about it.
- [21:38]
David Duchovny
As much on a whole thing there. But please.
- [21:41]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, yeah, no, I hear you. Tell me.
- [21:42]
David Duchovny
Tell me. Cause it's an amazing relationship.
- [21:46]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. And it's. And it's really the basis of this show is exploring that relationship. Because, you know, when you watch it, you'll see that it opens with me going back to Italy after all of this time. Right. I'm married. I have a baby. Yes. Is this like. That is the frame for this whole narrative? That is the journey that Amanda goes on. Amanda? Me?
- [22:07]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [22:08]
Amanda Knox
Is returning to Italy after all of these years.
- [22:11]
David Duchovny
Is it your name?
- [22:12]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Oh, yeah.
- [22:13]
David Duchovny
But are you the only name that is.
- [22:15]
Amanda Knox
No, my. You know, Rafael is there. Juliana Minini is there. We did change the names of the police officers who worked for Minini. Who else did we change? Yeah. Anyway, so there were some names that were changed, but, like, the main central characters are all identified by name, who they really are. And so that the story is, Amanda goes back to Italy to confront her prosecutor. And what happens when she does? And to appreciate the stakes of that encounter, we have to go back in time and see what she lived through to arrive up at this moment of.
- [22:53]
David Duchovny
Making it happen back there. Was there a chance that they could hold you again?
- [22:57]
Amanda Knox
So. Well, they held me the first time for not doing anything. So, yes, there was the distinct possibility that I could get arrested for something that I didn't do again. At least that's how we in my family felt. So there's genuine fear on the part of me and especially my loved ones.
- [23:16]
David Duchovny
You're married at the time.
- [23:18]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Mother. At the time.
- [23:20]
David Duchovny
Mother. At the time. Yeah. Right. Because you brought your child. What were you. What were your hopes? I know you said, as long as if you don't hope, you're invincible. I love that line. That's in the first book of the second book.
- [23:34]
Amanda Knox
That's my second book. Yeah.
- [23:37]
David Duchovny
Did you have hopes? Did you, did you ever question this? Why am I doing, why do I need to do this?
- [23:44]
Amanda Knox
I love that you, I love that I'm laughing right now because that's what he was saying to me constantly in the lead up to this is. Once I had decided that that's what I wanted to do, that I wanted to go back to Italy and I wanted to confront him, Chris, in a very supportive way. Not in like a, oh, my God, why, Like, you're crazy. Why would you do this? Which is a little bit how my family responded. He was just like, why are you doing this? And he would say it to me. Like, he would, he would said it many, many times. And he would always do it in, like, a spontaneous moment. Like, I'd be, you know, brushing my teeth and he'd be like, why are you doing this? And I'd be like, Or I'd be taking, you know, the laundry out, and he'd be like, why are you doing this? And, and my, my answer always changed. I, I, I, I wanted to know if the person who hurt me even understood that he hurt me. I want to know if he cares. I want to see if he'll say he's sorry. Like, there are a million things that I wanted. And of course, like, in my dream of dreams, this person would look me in the eye and say, I was wrong. I'm sorry. What can I do to make it up to you? Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Of course, like, that's what anyone who's been hurt by another person wants them to do. However, I realized that if, and this is, you know, due to help and talking to other people before going on this journey, that I realized that if I was going to Italy to confront him, to get something from him, I was going to fail. I was setting myself up for failure.
- [25:25]
David Duchovny
Why?
- [25:27]
Amanda Knox
Because I, because I was like, that was me needing him to do something. So success, the way that you would gauge success is if he gave me this golden nugget of well being, right? And if I needed him to give me something in order to be okay, then I was always going to be at his mercy and I would fail because in, you know, unless he just completely was, had a huge change of heart and became, you know, an angel of a person who could get over all of his own cognitive biases and all of the ego, you know, egotistical motives and all, all of that. If he could get through all of that and do that thing, sure, that would be great. But like, when in the history of ever has a human being been capable of that? So instead, instead of setting myself up for failure, I set myself up for success. And the way that I did that was by saying, well, what if I'm not trying to get anything out of him? I'm just trying to give him something. And no one can stop me from giving him something. And I can walk away knowing that I accomplished what I set out to accomplish. I can not fail. And that's what I did.
- [26:53]
David Duchovny
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- [31:21]
Amanda Knox
Yep.
- [31:21]
David Duchovny
And you're like, okay, I'm gonna pull a jiu jitsu on this guy. I'm gonna. For. I'm gonna. I'm gonna forgive him.
- [31:28]
Amanda Knox
Well, no, no, I'm gonna forgive him.
- [31:30]
David Duchovny
Is that what it was?
- [31:31]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [31:31]
David Duchovny
I'm gonna thank him.
- [31:32]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [31:32]
David Duchovny
So yeah, I'm gonna have gratitude.
- [31:34]
Amanda Knox
Right. I didn't set out to forgive him. Even, even ahead of time. I was like, I'm not interested in forgiveness. That wasn't my goal My goal was to understand him. Because the thing that really just haunted me years later was this, like, why question. Like, the number of times that I've just had, like, panic attacks, just going like, why, why, why?
- [31:58]
David Duchovny
Such a young question. Right. That's what kids ask.
- [32:00]
Amanda Knox
Okay, well, I was still a kid, you know. You know.
- [32:03]
David Duchovny
No, no, it's a great question. We all want it. Yeah, but we never get it.
- [32:07]
Amanda Knox
Well, I thought that maybe I could try to understand him. And the only way that I could understand him is if I asked him and I was ready to hear and, like, put him in a position to feel like he didn't have to defend himself. He just had to explain himself and that to position him in such a way that he knew that I would listen and that I wasn't there to judge or condemn him. I was just there to understand. And that's how I, like, initially started heading in that direction.
- [32:41]
David Duchovny
You started by writing letters to him?
- [32:43]
Amanda Knox
Yes, I wrote letters to him. And we developed this, you know, again, pandemic conversation. Like, I started this right before the pandemic, and then we corresponded over the course of the pandemic. And then once the pandemic was over, that's when I bought my ticket. Like, the pandemic was over when it was safe to travel again. That's just when I bought my ticket and I went back to Italy. So I had developed in real life this exchange between him where I disarmed him with my complete non judgment of him. Like, I did not set out by attempting to say, you know, dear Giuliano, what the fuck? Instead, I was like, dear Giuliano, I don't know who you are, but I think we have some things in common, like the fact that this case has become a huge defining thing in our lives and for both of us. And I feel like I have felt very misrepresented. And I bet you feel like you've been misrepresented too. So I want to understand who you are, period. And I hope that you understand who I am. And then over the course of these years of correspondence, we have this back and forth. And when we finally arrive in that place in Perugia, I'm surprised to discover that forgiveness is sort of an unintended consequence of really understanding a person. So, like you say, and what triggered this for me in what you were saying is when you, instead of saying, I need you to ask for my forgiveness, if I'm asking for your forgiveness, because I have not, I failed to recognize how you are a human, how you are capable of mistakes and. And hurting people. And that doesn't necessarily define you. Like, for me, I realized that, and so I told him that. I was like, I think you made a mistake. I don't think that makes you a bad person. Like, everyone makes mistakes. You just happen to be in a position of great power, and so your mistakes had greater consequences. And you know what? I don't even know if you realize how big a mistake you made. But you know what? It doesn't matter. Because I have been able to grow because of this. I have been able to become the person I am today. And I'm grateful to be the person I am today. And I would not be that person if it were not for you.
- [35:20]
David Duchovny
And it's also, at that point, he's retired.
- [35:22]
Amanda Knox
Yes, he is retired.
- [35:24]
David Duchovny
So it's not even that. It might have been different if you would have said, I want you to stop doing these things, you know, I want you to stop making these mistakes. If he's still in the middle of.
- [35:33]
Amanda Knox
His career, sure, sure. I think the stakes would have been higher. And I might have felt differently about approaching him if I felt like he might be committing these same, like, it might have been, like, intervention kind of territory at that point, but, like, it wasn't. And, yeah, I don't know what I might have done if that were the situation. I think I might have been more motivated to try to see if I could convince him of his mistakes. But I was not in that same position.
- [36:09]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Because what I'm struck by is his response is always. And still I have this feeling, you know, it's not about evidence. It's not about anything. And that's, to me, that's the problem when you have a person enforcing law who's just a storyteller. But that's what happens is, you know, that's how we define the laws. We tell stories around it. Right. So.
- [36:34]
Amanda Knox
Well. And I feel like in that situation, like, in that case, he's no different than any of us.
- [36:39]
David Duchovny
Yeah, but he's in a position of power.
- [36:41]
Amanda Knox
But he is in a position of power. Right. That's the difference. But, like, what his mistake was, was a very human mistake to make. And I think that's something that this show really seeks to show, is that it's not like you need some, you know, mustache twirling villain in order for something like this to happen. You can have a group of trained, like, nobly motivated people.
- [37:07]
David Duchovny
What happens is there's a mass hysteria. That happens too.
- [37:10]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [37:10]
David Duchovny
There's a momentum that gathers around an idea or a point of view or a way of telling a story.
- [37:15]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [37:15]
David Duchovny
And then it becomes the accepted way to tell that story.
- [37:18]
Amanda Knox
Exactly.
- [37:19]
David Duchovny
And I'm wondering if you've given much thought to. To the timing of your life and your case and that. What. What year are you arrested in?
- [37:27]
Amanda Knox
2007.
- [37:28]
David Duchovny
Right. So MeToo is nine. Nine, ten years later.
- [37:33]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [37:34]
David Duchovny
Also, the difference between American and Italian storytelling, crime storytelling. I don't know if you. If you wondered about those things, like, if. If you had been accused after. Me too, and people were saying, believe the women, which is different from, you know, she's. Whatever.
- [37:54]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:56]
David Duchovny
It's another way of telling the story, you know, because that's. That's not the truth either. But that's a. It's a corrective way of telling stories against the way we've been telling them for centuries. Anyway.
- [38:09]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. I think that. Post me to. It would have much more difficult to argue that a woman committed what was clearly a man's crime. Like, a woman was responsible because she's a sex monster. Like, you know, that it just was like the idea. And I think the other thing that was a really pernicious idea at the time that I think doesn't hold the same weight post me too. Although it's still like one of the most pernicious ongoing ideas out there, which is that all women secretly hate other women.
- [38:49]
David Duchovny
Oh, yeah. You mentioned that in the book.
- [38:51]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, yeah.
- [38:51]
David Duchovny
I've never. I've never had that thought. And nobody.
- [38:55]
Amanda Knox
Other people have.
- [38:57]
David Duchovny
Nobody's ever shared that thought with me either. I mean, I know about mean girls and that kind of stuff, but that's such an odd. That's such an odd thing to. To say.
- [39:07]
Amanda Knox
But it's. It's deeply entrenched in, like, misogynistic cultures that women are just in competition with each other for male attention.
- [39:16]
David Duchovny
Is it more Italian or more American? Or you would. You would say it's equally in both.
- [39:20]
Amanda Knox
I mean, I think that it was a really unquestioned narrative in Italy. Like. Like the idea of that just seemed to resonate very immediately with the Italian audience. But at the same time, like, this narrative took over the whole world. And so it. It landed in, you know, England. It landed here in the US There were, you know, there are a lot of even us journalists who were pushing this narrative of Girls Gone Wild. There was this idea. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, there was also this sense of, like. I think the fact that I was American was also a really crucial element here where there was this idea of what The American girl is like a very, like, superficial, overly sexualized person.
- [40:12]
David Duchovny
Yeah, well, I noticed in the, in the articles they would. They would call you American and they'd call Meredith British, and they called the Rudy guy Iborian or whatever.
- [40:24]
Amanda Knox
You know, it was all.
- [40:26]
David Duchovny
It was always, you know, they were. They were trying to say something by saying that.
- [40:31]
Amanda Knox
Yes, they were, because there were very ingrained stereotypes around, like, what kind of people. They assumed an American girl versus a British girl was like. And like, in their minds, we were exact opposites. Like, how else could we not be? Because a British girl is, like, uptight and prim and proper and prudish, and an American girl is, you know, eccentric and, you know, superficial and sex crazy and drug crazy. And so of course they're going to come into conflict, and of course the American girl is going to rape and murder the British girl. Like, you know, it's.
- [41:08]
David Duchovny
It's interesting to me because the, the reverse was. Was true artistically in the. In the 20th. In the early 20th century or even the 19th century, if you like. Look at Henry James books. The. The American is always this innocent, naive, corrupted by the, you know, the ancient kind of European, you know, classy ways.
- [41:30]
Amanda Knox
Totally.
- [41:31]
David Duchovny
So at some point that narrative changed, or at least from the point of view of the Europeans, I guess. Yes, they had this idea of an American as being Girls Gone Wild or some shit like that. But I guess I'm also interested in the idea that you're. You're telling it again. You know, you're. You're. You're telling the story again in this Hulu show.
- [41:56]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [41:56]
David Duchovny
And to me, I see you as a victim, you know, of, of the situation and of. Of the trial and of the tabloids and all that stuff. And it's almost like, you know, you, you. Not you. One wants a different outcome, you know, every time, every time you're going to go back and tell that story, you must know that people, they're entrenched or whatever, they either. They either believe this or they believe that.
- [42:30]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [42:31]
David Duchovny
But there must be something inside you that thinks, oh, I'm going to tell it this way, this time, and they're going to get it. They're going to finally get it. I'm going to go through it one more time, and it's some. Something's going to release. I. I must imagine that it's like that.
- [42:46]
Amanda Knox
I love that we're digging into psychology right now, and I have some, like, interesting thoughts. Okay.
- [42:51]
David Duchovny
Okay.
- [42:52]
Amanda Knox
So why tell it again?
- [42:55]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Or I love is the compulsion of telling it again.
- [42:59]
Amanda Knox
I love this. You noting that, of course, like, there's a part of me that hopes that if I tell it just right, people will finally understand me, you know, because there has been this resistance to. To understand or appreciate this experience that I went through. Like, I am. I remain a controversial figure in a lot of ways because a lot of people do not want to recognize that what I went through was a terrible thing that I never should have gone through. I get. I get victim blamed a lot. I get told that I'm not the real victim, so I should just shut up and disappear. So there is a part of me that's like, God, if I could just, like, say it in just the right way, then people would understand. Right. Like, there is an impulse that I feel that way, but I think a different. There is more to it than that, because it's not just that. I'm hoping that the outcome of me telling the story in this new way is going to be actual, genuine human connection after having felt isolated and, you know, ostracized from humanity for so long. It's also that the outcome is different today because it's not. This. This story is not just limited to this period of time. This is an ongoing story because I'm an ongoing person. I'm still living, I'm still evolving as a result of this thing that happened to me. Which is why this show seeks to sort of like, break out of that true crime biopic genre by saying it's not just limited to a courtroom drama. This isn't just a courtroom drama. This is a quest that an adult woman is going on in light of her past in order to make sense of something that happened, in order to find a sense of closure, in order to reclaim that sense of agency in her own life and not feel like just a victim of a bad thing that happened in the past. But, like, she has a say about where she's going and what she's accomplishing in her future. Like, that's how. It's a different story than one that I could have told five years ago. Because I have evolved and I have done things since then.
- [45:24]
David Duchovny
The culture's also evolved.
- [45:25]
Amanda Knox
The culture is involved. Our concerns have evolved. I think that now, today, concerns about misinformation are much more sophisticated and nuanced than they were when I was going through what I was going through. There was no term for echo chambers back, but that's what I was experiencing was that alternative facts, alternative facts, there was no term for that. And yet now we all are Concerned about that. And I think that this story helps reflect upon those more universal themes, and at the same time, it becomes a more universal human story because we've all had bad shit happen to us in our lives, and we're all trying to move beyond it, and we're all trying to not feel diminished, but in the ways that all these external forces make us feel diminished. You know, like, you talk about something you said earlier reminded me of how, like, today I feel. I don't feel like I'm trapped in this narrative anymore, but I'm also not. It's not like it's behind me.
- [46:32]
David Duchovny
Well, that's why you use the word closure. And I'm always really skeptical of that word.
- [46:36]
Amanda Knox
Right. You don't have that.
- [46:38]
David Duchovny
Nothing's ever closed on me in my life. Life. You. You carry it with you. Yeah, it's a scar, it's whatever.
- [46:44]
Amanda Knox
But it also lens through which you experience everything. Like giving birth to my daughter was informed by my, My. Everything that happened to me in Italy. Like, I. I almost.
- [46:54]
David Duchovny
That was one thing I wanted to ask too, was when will you talk to your daughter about this? And how will you. How will you. How will you talk to her about that?
- [47:08]
Amanda Knox
Good question. So my daughter.
- [47:10]
David Duchovny
You don't have to answer it. No, no question. But I mean, I wonder, like, it's.
- [47:14]
Amanda Knox
Not an impossible question, though.
- [47:15]
David Duchovny
To me it would be, but.
- [47:17]
Amanda Knox
Because she's already asked me.
- [47:18]
David Duchovny
Oh, she has.
- [47:18]
Amanda Knox
And I've already had this conversation with her. Yeah. So My daughter is 4. My daughter's 4 and 4. And she started asking me when she.
- [47:32]
David Duchovny
Was 3 and she heard.
- [47:36]
Amanda Knox
I mean, so I. Because I. Part of my life is telling my story and talking about it, you know, for what I feel are valuable reasons, like trying to ban police deception, for example. The fact of me having had this experience is in the ether. It's not like I'm sitting down and I'm like, let me tell you the story, kid. Like, she's just there and around me when I'm meeting other wrongly convicted people.
- [48:11]
David Duchovny
And you do, you know, use that voice, by the way, with the arms. Yeah, exactly. Work.
- [48:17]
Amanda Knox
And. But my daughter is very curious.
- [48:21]
David Duchovny
What did she ask you?
- [48:22]
Amanda Knox
Well, she asked, so she knows that. Well, first of all, she's been to Italy with me twice now, and. And, you know, she's seen me interacting with these people. She's seen me go to Innocence Network conferences where I've met other wrongly convicted people, and she's seen me go through the emotions of having.
- [48:47]
David Duchovny
Being in those situations.
- [48:48]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. Being Those situations. And also a little bit, this show kick started it because she's seen footage from, you know, the.
- [48:58]
David Duchovny
She's somebody playing Mommy.
- [48:59]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. Someone playing mom and someone playing her like there's a baby on screen. And I'm like, oh, there's Eureka. And so she'll ask the question. Well, and she's very interested in stories. She's quite the storyteller, loves stories. And so she's asking me, well, tell me the story of when mommy went to Italy. And I believe in being age appropriately transparent with kids. So if. Especially if they ask you a direct question. Like, she's asked me a direct question about my period before. And then we. She went down the rabbit hole. Yeah, that was the one that freaked her out the most. Yeah, well, because. Yeah, exactly. She thought she associated blood with pain. And so she was afraid of it.
- [49:42]
David Duchovny
She thought it was gonna happen tomorrow.
- [49:44]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. And I was like, no, you're. You're fine, kid. But she asked me to tell her the story of when mommy went to Italy. And so I tried to think of what is the way that I can tell her that she would understand. The good news is that I was very much in the habit of telling her stories all the time. Because she's three, I'm reading her stories all the time. She's asking me to make up stories all the time. And a lot of times she's asking me to make up stories that help her understand the world. So she's like, tell me a mean story. Like, she wants to know a story about what happens when someone is mean and what do you do when someone's mean? And so I, like, give her a story where someone's mean and then. And something happens and then they resolve the issue or, papa, tell me a.
- [50:25]
David Duchovny
Story about you died.
- [50:29]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, she'll straight up ask Chris, like, tell me a story about you dying.
- [50:32]
David Duchovny
It's like, it's. Yeah, it's fear and immunization. And it's like you want to confront the worst thing that could happen.
- [50:37]
Amanda Knox
Exactly. So she's curious. So she asked me, you know, and I think, okay, how do I tell this? Like a fairy tale? Well, when mama was young, Mama went to this beautiful place called Italy because she wanted to go to school there. And when she went there, she made lots of friends, she had lots of fun. But then one day, someone hurt her friend. And the police thought mama hurt her friend. And so they put her in jail and kept her there until mama could show that mama didn't kill her friend. And then mama came home and mama met papa and then we had you and it was a happily ever after. And sometimes she'll be curious, like, she'll ask like, well, how long were you in jail? And I'll say, four years. And like, she's four years old. She doesn't really know how old I am. She tends to think I'm 6 years old. Just like slightly older than her. But she, yeah, so I'm just say a real, you know, I say a really long time. And she's like, how? A really long time? And I'll say, well, four years. And then she's just like, okay, I can't really understand that. And then she'll ask me, you know, what was that like? And I will say, well, it's really sad. Mama was really sad for a long time. And then she'll say, well, are you sad now? And I will be like, sometimes. But I'm much better now and I'm so happy and grateful to be here with you. Because that's the truth.
- [52:19]
David Duchovny
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- [53:49]
Amanda Knox
Our health care system is broken in so many ways. We have a health care system that's.
- [53:55]
David Duchovny
Supposed to be taking care of people.
- [53:57]
Amanda Knox
That is making it literally more difficult.
- [54:00]
David Duchovny
Difficult for people to put food on the table.
- [54:02]
Amanda Knox
So this season we'll dive into the challenges head first, while also thinking about how we can find a better way, because we all deserve better. Uncared for season three from Lemonada Media, available August 6th, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [54:38]
David Duchovny
So it's very complicated kind of a relationship you have with this show that's coming out because it's very personal.
- [54:44]
Amanda Knox
Very.
- [54:45]
David Duchovny
Also very. Professional is not the word, but it's. It's about a lot of things that you are now interested in as a professional person.
- [54:56]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, yeah. And. And I want to give credit where credit is. Do, like, you know, it takes, as, you know, it takes a village for something like this to happen. And, like, I could have entered into this scenario, and it could have been a fricking nightmare.
- [55:10]
David Duchovny
So you were approached at some point? At some point you were approached or did you kind of pitch? For years she was approached, you were approached?
- [55:17]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, no, I. For years, people had been approaching me. But again, like, during times of my life where I felt like, no, this is just a story of a bad thing that happened to me. It's not my story. It doesn't feel right for me even to tell because, you know, two girls go to Italy, and only one of them survives the end. Like, what kind of story is that? So I didn't feel comfortable telling that story for a long time, and a lot of that was due to survivor's guilt, and a lot of that was due to feeling like it just wasn't my story. Like, it wasn't. There was nothing about this story that said anything about me. It said more about the people who put us in jail than it did to me, but I just didn't feel comfortable with that. And so I pushed that away for a long time. But then right after I gave birth to my daughter, Chris, and I had been. I had already been in conversation with my prosecutor, and I knew that there was. I was working on something. I was working towards something that was different. And that was sort of a defining moment for me where I was, like, I was doing something that was. I knew, was unexpected, and that went against what anyone would expect. You know, like, even all of my friends in the exoneree world, wrongly convicted people, they're all like, girl, you're crazy. Like, why are you talking to this guy? Like, that is insane. And there was just, like, some deep, deep part of me that felt like I knew I was driving towards something important, and I hadn't really figured out what it was yet because I hadn't met him in person yet. But, like, that's where I was and I was thinking about, like, well, this is my story. This is a story of me working through this ordeal and coming out on the other side of it as someone who's actually an agent, as someone who's actually a protagonist in my own story, and instead of just a victim of someone else's. And that is when I was approached by my friend Monica Lewinsky, who is also an executive producer on this show. And she put me in contact with 20th, you know, the 20th production company that is in like, that works with Hulu. And we together found our creator and showrunner, K.J. steinberg. She, like, from the minute one that I talked to her, she was completely with me. Like, we. She completely empathized with what I was attempting to do. She was the one who, like, came up with this term, the anatomy of bias, which is that investigation into the fragility of the human mind and how these narratives become this, like, boulder that rolls down the hill and gains momentum. Exactly. This is like her crucible. And so, like, working with her has been such a beautiful experience because she has got what, like, got what I am trying to get out of my own story and also has brought her own sort of, like, fun vision. And so I've just really enjoyed the experience of collaborating with people on something that is so deeply personal because the people that I've been working with have been working so hard to get it right after what I feel is it's been getting wrong for so long. Like, you know, I heard through the grapevine that Meredith's family was potentially, like, questioning, like, what is the point of this? This story has been told, you know, a million times or whatever. And it's like, I'm not. I agree with them that, like, in the past, this story has been told in a really, you know, unethical and unpurposeful, unthoughtful way. It was just told because it was scandal mongering. And that is not what this is about. Like, this is a very, again, personal journey of, like, trying to reconcile with one's own life. And it is, you know, it's my story of that. Like, it's my journey to do that. And I just hope that it feels that people come away from it not just feeling like they've had a voyeuristic experience, but they've had a human connection kind of experience.
- [59:32]
David Duchovny
Did you bridle at all against the.
- [59:35]
Amanda Knox
Title of it, the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox?
- [59:40]
David Duchovny
I gotta say, that bumps me a little bit.
- [59:42]
Amanda Knox
It bumped me a little bit too.
- [59:44]
David Duchovny
I Don't like to say the word bump. I apologize for saying that.
- [59:47]
Amanda Knox
That's okay. I also, a little bit was like, I wonder if people will take that the wrong way. I think they might, but the idea behind it, which I understood was there was this desire for the show to embrace the fact that it is a kind of coming of age fairy tale.
- [60:12]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Right.
- [60:12]
Amanda Knox
And so they wanted there to be there, wanted to be something in the title that gave that sense of like, this is, this isn't a true crime, you know, store biopic. This is a fairy tale in a way. And so that's where that it was coming from. And of course, like, I think also they were thinking twisted because this, this reality has been distorted beyond recognition. So there's that. Yeah, but, yeah, I, I hear you.
- [60:41]
David Duchovny
It's just the title. It's, it's interesting to me that Harry Potter, you know, because you, you talk. I've never read Harry Potter.
- [60:49]
Amanda Knox
You haven't? Not even with your kids? How old are your kids?
- [60:54]
David Duchovny
The. 26 and 22. So they, I mean, they read it? Yeah, they read it on their own. I didn't, I didn't read it with them.
- [61:01]
Amanda Knox
Man, you're in for a journey, man.
- [61:03]
David Duchovny
Yeah, well, see, this is my question to you because when you see, I, I, I just turned that first page over to scare you because, like, oh, we've only done one page. No, the rest is just really a laundry list. Okay, that's what I need to.
- [61:17]
Amanda Knox
I just am so obsessed with your notepad here. Most people do not have a notepad when they talk to me. And I love lots of notepads. I love homework. I love that you have two pairs of glasses. What's up with that? And you're not even wearing either of them. They're just here for decoration.
- [61:32]
David Duchovny
Because that's why I write so big, because you talk about, in the new book, you talk about religion. There was that wonderful priest in the, in the.
- [61:44]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, Don Salo.
- [61:45]
David Duchovny
Yeah. And he's got, he's got amazing, he, he's a very spiritual and, and thoughtful.
- [61:53]
Amanda Knox
Man, and he has a big role in the show.
- [61:55]
David Duchovny
Oh, does he? Is he on the show?
- [61:56]
Amanda Knox
Yep.
- [61:57]
David Duchovny
Yeah, I should know that. But he says something about when, when people ask for strength, God gives them something to be strong about, which I thought was a beautiful thing to say. But you, you say that you're not Catholic in that way. You say that the kind of apostle and stuff didn't work for you, and yet you constantly come back to Harry Potter and Amelie. Is that how you pronounce that?
- [62:23]
Amanda Knox
Amelie. Yeah, Amelie.
- [62:24]
David Duchovny
And I wonder what. What it is in those texts that you're not getting from the Bible or.
- [62:33]
Amanda Knox
That's a really interesting question because you.
- [62:36]
David Duchovny
Had it in prison and you kept on reading. I know you're teaching yourself Italian with it, but, yeah, clearly it was speaking you. And clearly the movie Amelie speaks to you, and it's even in the Hulu show.
- [62:48]
Amanda Knox
Yes, yeah, yeah. There's homage to Amelie.
- [62:50]
David Duchovny
What is that philosophy that you've gotten from those books that you didn't get from those other books?
- [62:58]
Amanda Knox
That's a really cool question, because you're right. I was already a Harry Potter fan before, and I got a lot out of that story as a young person. I was the perfect age, by the way, when it came out. I was 11 when the first book came out. So I grew up alongside Harry Potter, and. And so I was able to really relate to his journey in so many ways. But then I found myself in prison, and suddenly I was able to appreciate Harry Potter's darker moments that I hadn't been able to appreciate before. Like, Harry Potter is wrongly accused and vilified in the public eye for a long time because nobody wants to believe the truth, which is that Voldemort has actually come back and is now rising to power. Everyone is just, like, so resistant to reality that they have thrown a young, innocent boy under the bus. And he is grappling with it not gracefully, but with a lot of anger and a lot of confusion and resentment. And that spoke to me when I was sitting in a prison cell going, what the fuck is going on? Where are all the adults in the room?
- [64:08]
David Duchovny
Did you have that? Or are you just kind of living in it and through it? We conscious of, like, oh, this is my story.
- [64:15]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, No, I. I mean, yeah, I. I was.
- [64:17]
David Duchovny
He's also marked like, a Scarlet Letter, in a way.
- [64:21]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, he has. Yeah, he has a scar. Yes.
- [64:23]
David Duchovny
I don't know anything about Harry Potter.
- [64:25]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [64:25]
David Duchovny
I really don't.
- [64:26]
Amanda Knox
That scar plays a very important role in his life. But, yes, he's very recognizable because of his scar. And so. Yes, so the fact that he is, like, pitched out of humanity after, he's just, like, trying to help and trying to do the right thing and the entire world rejects him. Spoke to me. The fact that he has to, like, there's. I think at one point, Dumbledore says something like Dumbledore being, like, the main good guy. Yes. I think he says something along the lines of, like, a similar idea, too. There's what's easy? And then there's that you can do the easy thing or you can do the right thing. And there's a lot of, like, that kind of scenario. And just like confronting the thing that scares you is a big part of that story. So I feel like it was less philosophy and more just me finding somebody to relate to in, in this whole journey. And in the process, like, re experiencing this, like, child, like, you know, Harry Potter was like a friend to me in prison. It was the thing that was familiar.
- [65:29]
David Duchovny
How lonely you must have felt.
- [65:31]
Amanda Knox
I was extremely, extremely lonely. You know, the first eight months I was in isolation, I wasn't allowed to, to talk to anybody. And I couldn't even, even if I tried to talk to everybody, I couldn't speak Italian. So I was like struggling to make myself understood. I wasn't even allowed to talk to people. So I was very alone. Like I was losing my mind. I was, you know, singing to myself.
- [65:50]
David Duchovny
Literally. They, they know now that you do lose your mind if you're isolated social animals.
- [65:57]
Amanda Knox
That said, like, I, I'm not a. Not spiritual person. I think the thing that I was resisting was this idea that there is some kind of divine authority figure who's going to make sure that all the scales are balanced in the end and that everything's gonna be all right. And we just have to trust that that's how it is. You know, in the face of our own, like, inexplicable, unreasonable suffering, it's all for the best. Like, I did not like that idea because I had already.
- [66:30]
David Duchovny
Yeah, you're in the middle of it.
- [66:31]
Amanda Knox
I was right in the middle of it. And the very authority figures that I had gone to, that I had trusted, had betrayed me. So no, I did not have this sort of like, deep seated instinct to, you know, trust some higher authority figure. I was like, no, all of the authority figures are wrong. There are no authority figures. Everyone's just children. And now I'm in the middle of this mess that is being constructed by children stories. Yeah. And you know, like, and now I'm just in this like, kids nightmare castle that I can't get out of because they don't want to do the right thing because they're children. Like, that's the situation. So instead, my spirituality is more grounded in what is true in the present moment. I practice more like Zen Buddhism. I'm a meditator at this point. I'm. And so what I have found is that when it all comes down to it, no matter what's going on in this moment, we're okay. Like, we're okay.
- [67:37]
David Duchovny
Like, because we're alive.
- [67:40]
Amanda Knox
Because we're okay. Like, the feeling, the feeling of just sitting and noticing is okay. Like, that's what it feels like to just sit and pay attention.
- [67:53]
David Duchovny
I come at that a couple ways. One is another formulation that was given to me, which is, and I screw it up all the time, but it's very helpful to me, which is, you know, the extent to which I can be with that, which I cannot be, is the extent of my freedom and creativity and joy.
- [68:10]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. That cognitive dissonance.
- [68:12]
David Duchovny
You had it.
- [68:13]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [68:13]
David Duchovny
You actually had it. And also something that's been with me for years is a phrase from Nietzsche in Latin called amor fati, which is love of fate. So it just means that whatever happened to you, the strongest, the strongest move that you can make is to love it and not, oh, I wish it had happened a different way.
- [68:41]
Amanda Knox
Beyond just accept it. Like love it.
- [68:43]
David Duchovny
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's beyond acceptance, which is kind of.
- [68:48]
Amanda Knox
Goes back to what my friend the priest would say, which is that he could love whatever happened because he had faith that there is a higher power who ultimately has a good intention. Yeah.
- [69:01]
David Duchovny
For me, I don't, but that's not either myself.
- [69:07]
Amanda Knox
But I agree with you.
- [69:08]
David Duchovny
But it's amazing to me that you have turn this into a life, you know, you've turned it into. I don't, if I say career, it sounds like you're manipulative or in some way or, or, you know, I don't.
- [69:24]
Amanda Knox
Which sucks because everyone else has careers and they are, you know, and there is okay for them to have careers. But. Yeah, yeah.
- [69:31]
David Duchovny
Well, yeah, if you're. Yes. Yeah, it is. Okay. Everyone's informed by their life experience. Right. And, and you have taken, you know, something so unfortunate and dark and, and turned it into not just the storytelling aspect, but you do other things that are helpful to other people.
- [69:52]
Amanda Knox
And I hope the storytelling aspect is helpful too. You know, I, I, but, yes, but.
- [69:58]
David Duchovny
I'm, I mean, I, I, I'm running around storytellers all the time, so I'm less impressed by that.
- [70:03]
Amanda Knox
I see.
- [70:04]
David Duchovny
I'm impressed by the fact that you're out there actually trying to help people not just by telling the story. I know you're here to talk about the telling of the story, and I do hope, I do hope that it reaches, you know, people, but I'm impressed personally by the fact that you reach out and help people on a per. In a personal way.
- [70:21]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [70:22]
David Duchovny
With issues that are actually addressable issues that can be changed and not just. Oh, it puts me in the mind of wanting to change things. What the do I do right?
- [70:31]
Amanda Knox
No, you're actually there's like common sense things that we could do right now we could have done yesterday and it would have made. Made the world a better place. Yeah.
- [70:38]
David Duchovny
So I don't. I don't really have anything else. I mean, I. I put on my glasses to see what I. I had wanted to ask.
- [70:44]
Amanda Knox
How can I try these on?
- [70:45]
David Duchovny
They're bifocals. You'll embarrass me. But my. I just wanted to tell you I had. That I had a bad accident when I was in my 20s and I from playing basketball and I have.
- [70:56]
Amanda Knox
Did someone like my joke?
- [70:58]
David Duchovny
I have a ruptured sphincter. So it's a joke. But you have a sphincter muscle in your eye.
- [71:04]
Amanda Knox
So this isn't bad. If I look down.
- [71:06]
David Duchovny
You're blind then anyway. So my pupil does not contract. It wants to contract. But see, this one is larger than the other one. Can you see that?
- [71:15]
Amanda Knox
Oh, yeah.
- [71:15]
David Duchovny
So that's the sphincter muscle.
- [71:17]
Amanda Knox
I'm sorry about your sphincter.
- [71:37]
David Duchovny
Freedom is a practice. Amanda says very. That's a good quote. I think very much on the subject of fail Better. This is a woman who, when I brought up the notion of amor fati, which is love of fate, nature. And Amanda's husband Chris helpfully redefined it as not just an acceptance of fate, but a love of faith. So it's not just. It's a stance towards the past, which is not just one of acceptance. Like, you know, it is what it is or what happens happens or what happened happened. That's, I guess, acceptance. But it actually goes beyond acceptance to love. Here we are at love of failure. Love of failure. We've come to this place after so long, so many, so many discussions. Is that a possibility? Isn't that a very intelligent way or very winning way to go about losing? Foreign thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the full version of my post interview thoughts that you won't hear anywhere else. That's more of my recaps on interviews with guests like Chris Carter and Emily Deschanel. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonade premium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. Fail Better is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Krupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcast, podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.