Catching Up with Gillian Anderson

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fail Better with David Duchovny – Episode: Catching Up with Gillian Anderson

Published by Lemonada Media

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Fail Better, host David Duchovny engages in an intimate and candid conversation with his longtime friend and co-star, Gillian Anderson. The episode delves deep into their shared history, personal struggles, and the concept of failure as a catalyst for growth. Skipping the introductory segments and advertisements, the focus remains squarely on the meaningful dialogue between Duchovny and Anderson.

Reconnecting and Initial Impressions

The episode kicks off with light-hearted banter about Gillian's new beverage line, "G Spot," setting a relaxed tone for the discussion.

Gillian Anderson [02:21]:

"How many liquids do I have here, David Duchovny."

David Duchovny [02:24]:

"Can I count? Well, carbonated water, still water, some kind of big green thing, a coffee looking thing, Unsweetened tea. Unsweetened tea."

This playful exchange quickly transitions into an exploration of Gillian's latest projects, including her book "Want"—a collection of anonymous fantasies from women worldwide—and her beverage line. Duchovny expresses admiration for her multifaceted endeavors, highlighting the depth and authenticity she brings to her work.

Reflecting on Their Time on "The X-Files"

The conversation naturally shifts to their complex relationship during the filming of "The X-Files." Both Duchovny and Anderson acknowledge the lack of personal connection despite on-screen chemistry.

David Duchovny [06:27]:

"The part of this conversation that is the trickiest part for me is I guess I would talk about like my failure of friendship or my failure of companionship or just co-starringness."

Gillian Anderson [07:06]:

"That is kind of crazy."

They discuss the underlying tensions and the absence of off-camera camaraderie, which, while not affecting their professional performance, left both feeling isolated and disconnected.

Personal Failures and Communication Issues

The dialogue deepens as both individuals confront their own personal failures, particularly in communication and vulnerability.

David Duchovny [09:14]:

"I'm fucking talking so much."

Gillian Anderson [09:26]:

"Communication is everything. It's everything. And yet it's really hard."

Anderson shares her struggles with expressing herself, revealing how opening up often weakened her ability to perform. Duchovny contrasts this with his own approach, where verbal acknowledgment helps him overcome internal struggles.

Impact of Childhood and Upbringing on Personal Dynamics

Both guests reflect on how their childhood experiences have shaped their adult behaviors, especially concerning shame and confrontation.

Gillian Anderson [10:04]:

"The minute I speak to my fear or my concern or I am suddenly, my knees go weak and I can't do the scene."

David Duchovny [11:40]:

"I want you to think maybe you have it, too."

They explore the lingering effects of their upbringing, discussing how these early experiences influence their present-day interactions and self-perception.

Navigating Parenthood

Shifting focus, the conversation touches upon their roles as parents and the accompanying challenges.

David Duchovny [44:22]:

"I've had two boys now who are busy making their own lives. Sadly they don't have to live the path I went through."

Gillian Anderson [46:40]:

"I'm very close to my kids. It's my happiest time, I think, when I'm with them."

They discuss the balance between work and family, with Duchovny emphasizing the difficulty of protecting his children from his own failures, while Anderson highlights the emotional toll of balancing a demanding career with motherhood.

Gillian's Projects: "Want" and "G Spot"

Gillian delves into her entrepreneurial ventures, explaining the motivations and challenges behind her book and beverage line.

Gillian Anderson [50:00]:

"The first stage was me being asked whether it be something I was interested in, which I was. And I immediately understood why it would be interesting to do in terms of recreating a collection of anonymous sexual fantasies from women around the world."

She elaborates on how these projects aim to reduce shame around female desire and empower women to embrace their own fantasies and desires without judgment.

Navigating Social Media and Personal Branding

The discussion moves to the intricacies of maintaining a personal brand on social media while preserving privacy and authenticity.

David Duchovny [53:03]:

"But I can't really do that. It doesn't really work."

Gillian Anderson [54:00]:

"I hold it lightly. I also don't share anything about my kids or my personal life. None of that shows up."

Anderson explains her strategic approach to social media, emphasizing that she delegates it to her team and maintains strict boundaries to protect her personal life, ensuring that her online presence remains aligned with her brand's mission rather than her private identity.

Conclusion and Reflections on Friendship and Failure

As the episode nears its end, Duchovny and Anderson reflect on their enduring friendship and the importance of acknowledging past failures.

David Duchovny [63:28]:

"It's a lot to dance around, you know, without getting into specifics. Right. But I think that we managed to do that."

Gillian Anderson [63:48]:

"Yeah, thank you, David."

They conclude by expressing gratitude for the opportunity to openly discuss their history, emphasizing that acknowledging failures is a step toward growth and better relationships.

Key Takeaways

• Failure as Growth: Both Duchovny and Anderson view failure not as a setback but as an essential part of personal and professional development.

• Importance of Communication: Effective communication is vital in overcoming personal barriers and building meaningful relationships.

• Balancing Personal and Professional Life: Navigating fame and parenthood requires setting clear boundaries and prioritizing personal well-being.

• Empowerment Through Authenticity: Embracing one's true self and reducing societal shame around desires lead to personal empowerment and stronger community connections.

Notable Quotes

• David Duchovny [03:03]:

  "I'm drinking butterfly pee."

• Gillian Anderson [10:46]:

  "If I worked less, I'd be able to speak to my shame a lot more."

• David Duchovny [28:21]:

  "It was. It was so difficult for me to watch my kids fail at anything."

• Gillian Anderson [56:32]:

  "I hold it lightly. I also don't share anything about my kids or my personal life."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Fail Better offers a profound exploration of failure, friendship, and personal growth. Through their honest and reflective dialogue, Duchovny and Anderson provide listeners with valuable insights into navigating the complexities of personal relationships and the inevitable failures that shape our lives. Their conversation serves as a powerful reminder that embracing failure can lead to deeper understanding and stronger connections.

For those interested in more in-depth discussions and exclusive content, consider subscribing to Lemonada Premium.

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Produced by Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby.

Transcript

[Reshma Sajani]

Hi, I'm Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls who Code. Look, I'd consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. I've written books, founded two successful nonprofits, and I'm raising two incredible kids. But here's the thing. I still wake up wondering, is this it? And if the best years are yet to come, when's that going to start? Join me on my so Called Midlife, my new podcast with Lemonada Media, where we're building a playbook for navigating midlife one episode at a time. Each week, I'll chat with extraordinary guests who've transformed their midlife crisis into opportunities for growth and newfound purpose. At some point, we all ask ourselves, is there more to life? I'm here to discover how to thrive in my second act, right alongside you. My so Called Midlife is out now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Unknown]

Lemonade.

[David Duchovny]

I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Gillian Anderson is an actor, activist and writer, probably best known for her role as Dana Scully. How do you pronounce that? In the X Files? Yes. Alongside me, David Duchovny, Fox Mulder. Gillian has received critical acclaim for her work in stage productions like A Streetcar Named Desire and in the popular shows Sex Education and the Crown, among others. She's championed a lot of charity work in her life, more than I'd have time to mention. And she's also published half a dozen books since the X Files wrapped, including a fantasy trilogy. Her most recent book is called Want, which is a collection of anonymous fantasies from women around the world. She has a line of beverages called G Spot, which she brought with her to the studio where we recorded. We have a wide ranging conversation coming up and we go through the past, we go through the future, and we even touch upon the present. This was a really nice conversation and I'm grateful for the opportunity to talk so easily and candidly after all these years. Here's Jillian Anderson.

[Gillian Anderson]

How many liquids do I have here, David Duchovny.

[David Duchovny]

Can I count? Well, carbonated water, still water, some kind of big green thing, a coffee looking thing, Unsweetened tea. Unsweetened tea.

[Gillian Anderson]

That looks kind of good. And then guess what this is.

[David Duchovny]

I hope it's a G spot. I'm glad we're doing radio here.

[Gillian Anderson]

I'm actually going to share it with you because.

[David Duchovny]

Tell me about this one. Tell me about this one.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, it's a lovely shade.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, it's like a lavender, isn't it?

[Gillian Anderson]

It Is indeed. That's because of butterfly pee.

[David Duchovny]

Is that right?

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, absolutely.

[David Duchovny]

Is that actually right?

[Gillian Anderson]

That is actually right.

[David Duchovny]

I'm drinking butterfly pee.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, you are.

[David Duchovny]

Can you tell me why that's good for me?

[Gillian Anderson]

It is an aphrodisiac, which is what this particular drink is. It's called arouse because it is actually an aphrodisiac. It's got L citridine and L arginine in it, which I think it expands the blood vessels, so it gives you a little rush of blood to the head. I may be making that up, but it works.

[David Duchovny]

I'll wait until it will clink and we'll.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Cheers. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming on.

[Gillian Anderson]

Thanks for having me taste this.

[David Duchovny]

Well, that's nice. It's refreshing. I love you branching out into other areas. It's impressive and it's inspiring. I have your Want book here, which I have to say, I love the.

[Gillian Anderson]

COVID Good cover, right?

[David Duchovny]

I love the COVID Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

That was Bloomsbury.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. I want to thank you for coming on and, you know, reaching out at the time you did and saying you like the podcast and, you know, it would be nice to come on and all that. And I was just wondering, what was it that you thought might be good about coming on the podcast?

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, when I first started listening and I'd reached out to you, I wasn't thinking about it necessarily in terms of me or talking to you about the book. It was more of just of really enjoying it and listening to the depth of your conversations that you were getting into with people and appreciating that. I felt like I was learning more about you than I knew or than I ever knew.

[David Duchovny]

Isn't that interesting? Because I thought having you on today, obviously I know you. We know each other very deeply, and yet we don't know each other either.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

In some weird way. And I thought, what am I looking forward to today? I'm looking forward to that.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

You know, even if it's just. Even if it's just biographical. I don't know that we ever sat down and said, hey, what was your childhood like?

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, no, we didn't. And why would we? We were busy.

[David Duchovny]

We were busy. But maybe early on we did, but I don't remember.

[Gillian Anderson]

And that might be something that you do when you're older or you appreciate knowing those details about people. Maybe when you're older than you might not when you're younger. I don't know.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. But I'm looking forward to that part as well. And I was just wondering you know, with the topic above, the podcast is about failure. If you actually thought about that before you came on today and you thought, oh, I would talk about that thing or that other.

[Gillian Anderson]

I will talk about all my failures. No, no, openly.

[David Duchovny]

Both of them. One of them. The failure, whatever it was. But that's cool that we're on the same page, I think.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. I mean, I was looking forward to coming on to more than anything just to explore, as you say, a conversation that I don't feel like we ever had. But also, you're right that we have a closeness that we don't have with probably many other people and went through something that we didn't go through with any other people. I mean, yes, there were crew and et cetera, but in terms of our experience as actors. And so I thought it would be a curious investigation.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. The part of this conversation that is the trickiest part for me is I guess I would talk about like my failure of friendship or my failure of companionship or just co starringness. There was a long time working on the show where we were just not even dealing with one another off camera.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And there was a lot of tension, which didn't matter apparently for the work, because we're both fucking crazy. I guess that we could just go out there and do what we needed to do.

[Gillian Anderson]

That is kind of crazy.

[David Duchovny]

It's nuts. But we were so busy and it was like.

[Gillian Anderson]

I mean, it's crazy that we were able to present on camera the various feelings and emotions and attraction and all that kind of stuff, but then not speak to each other for weeks at a time or whatever.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

It's very odd, isn't it?

[David Duchovny]

But in a way, maybe it was smart. I don't know. Cause we're like saving it up. I don't know. But I could have handled myself better, you know. And as you know, we went through a crazy. Making kind of a process with this thing. We went from. I mean, I was pretty inexperienced. You were really inexperienced. And all of a sudden, you know, it's hard to imagine, like with the Internet now, but it was like a global phenomenon before the Internet.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And we're just scurrying, trying to figure out who we are. You're a little younger than me too. You're very young. At least I'm in my 30s. You're in your 20s. Just turn your world upside down completely. So I think we both kind of. I don't want to speak for you, but for me it was. I was trying to figure out who I am. In all this? What's my part in this? I want to take advantage of it, you know, like, how do I make this into my career? You know, that kind of stuff. And I quit the show, you know, like, seven years later. I never apologized to you for that. I don't know that I even talked to you about it. And then you said you weren't gonna do the show anymore, like, the last time we did it. And I know that hurt my feelings.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. And I don't know if I hurt your feelings the first time I quit, you know, it wasn't so much. I get it, you know, like, okay. And I support it, whatever it is you want to do. But I was like, oh, she's quitting me. You know, like, she doesn't like working with me anymore, you know, so it was like, that little kid inside is going like, hey. You know? And then I was like. But I didn't say anything to her back in the day, you know, Can.

[Gillian Anderson]

I speak to some of that, please?

[David Duchovny]

I'm fucking talking so much.

[Gillian Anderson]

I mean, I think back when. I mean, communication is everything. It's everything. And yet it's really hard. It's hard to be vulnerable. It's hard to. I know that any time that I. Anytime that I tried to express myself, I then almost. The standing up for myself almost felt worse than keeping it inside that suddenly.

[David Duchovny]

Was that my. Because of my reaction?

[Gillian Anderson]

No, I think I. It was like it allowed the fear to come in.

[David Duchovny]

It allowed you spoken into being.

[Gillian Anderson]

I. Yeah. And so suddenly, rather than being able to hold it together and push through it and just, you know, not deal with it, I think that's how I dealt as a child, was just don't talk about it. Don't talk about it. Just, you know, just deal. And so if I continue to do that, I know how to do that. The minute I speak to my fear or my concern or I am suddenly, my knees go weak and I can't do the scene. It's like, if I don't speak to it, I can do my work. If I do speak to it, I'm weakened and my voice goes. And I couldn't show up for myself.

[David Duchovny]

So I'm the exact opposite. Like, if I can just say it, I don't even have to. You don't have to say you're right or you're wrong or whatever. I'm just like, okay, now I can do it. But I did.

[Gillian Anderson]

That's now. No, see, but. I know, but, see, I can do that now. But back then, I think as a 20 whatever year old, I couldn't.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I couldn't as a 30 whatever year old. And it's still not easy because I don't like confrontation. I grew up in a family as well. That confrontation was dangerous. Like, I had a fragile parent who, if I confronted that parent, shit could happen, bad shit could happen in the family or whatever. So every time I'm in a situation where I'm going to stand up for myself or confront, I get those, you know, those feelings. They're my body. Do you remember I have an image of, like, the most dysfunctional we ever were.

[Gillian Anderson]

Tell me.

[David Duchovny]

No, but I want you to think maybe you have it, too. I want to know if it's the same one or. You can give me your one. You can think about yours while I tell you mine.

[Gillian Anderson]

Tell me.

[David Duchovny]

Unless you. Unless you have something.

[Gillian Anderson]

No, no, please. I don't have anything. Immediately.

[David Duchovny]

It was some Emmys.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh.

[David Duchovny]

And it was the day after, and I had a private plane and I was giving you a ride.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh.

[David Duchovny]

And you were late. And I was so angry. And then we sat on this private plane flying to Vancouver from la, not talking. And you wrote me a letter. So you're just like six feet away from me. I don't remember writing a letter to me that you give to me. And it's a beautiful letter. I don't remember it exactly, but it was like, it was appreciative and it was like. It was all the things that I wanted to hear.

[Gillian Anderson]

Right, right.

[David Duchovny]

But it's just amazing that we couldn't just have that coming. And, you know, the fact that it's a private plane, it's just all ridiculous.

[Gillian Anderson]

I had no memory that we were even on a private plane together, let alone. But I wrote you a letter on one. Interesting.

[David Duchovny]

The other one early on.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And this is so funny to think about with Chris because I think we were kind of butting heads so early on in the first season that Chris asked us if we would go into fake couples therapy.

[Gillian Anderson]

Really? Did he?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Like, would we go into, like, TV character couple therapy?

[Gillian Anderson]

I don't remember.

[David Duchovny]

I remember sitting in his office with you.

[Gillian Anderson]

Really?

[David Duchovny]

And Chris is like, yeah, do you guys want to go, like, into therapy together? And I was like, you mean as Mulder and Scully or. I'm confused. And. Yeah, I remember that.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, I don't remember that. I've got such a bad memory. I'm trying to think of any. I just remember. I mean, our hours.

[David Duchovny]

Well, yeah, I mean, it Would make you insane to try to do it. Sleep deprivation. You were pregnant as well in the first year you had a baby. The first year. I mean, I can't imagine that you could remain sane. Okay, at whatever age you were 20, 24, and you get pregnant, you're on a show that blows up. Your dreams are coming true in a way. But it's also a nightmare now. And getting a divorce. You're getting a divorce. Well, that'll happen when you have a baby.

[Gillian Anderson]

I mean, yeah. I mean, I do remember times where I just bawled my eyes out, you know, it would have to be.

[David Duchovny]

But I don't know how you would keep a straight thought in your head. And I do remember you coming into my trailer and telling me you were pregnant.

[Gillian Anderson]

I remember that too.

[David Duchovny]

You remember that?

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. I think it was the same day that Blue had been spayed. I think I do. Yeah. But it's hard. It's hard under those circumstances, I think to, you know, it required us to be, you know, uber adults very quickly. And I have to imagine that under those extreme circumstances that the only thing that at times that's going to want to come out is actually our child, not and not our adult at all.

[David Duchovny]

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This month I'm making it a point to focus on gratitude. Thanking the people in my life who show up for me and are always there, like my incredibly supportive family. But it's also important to direct some of that gratitude inward and remember to thank ourselves for the effort we put in every single day. Showing ourselves kindness isn't always easy, but taking the time to invest in your mental well being can be a powerful way to do just that. That's where better help can step in. Therapy can be a space to slow down, reflect, and start giving yourself the care and attention you deserve. I know reaching out for support can feel intimidating. Sometimes we feel like we're supposed to handle it all on our own. But the truth is, you don't have to. Therapy isn't about having all the answers. It's about connecting with someone who can offer guidance and a fresh perspective. Helping you build up a toolkit of skills that makes life feel a little less overwhelming. BetterHelp makes it convenient to find the right therapist for you. Someone who gets it and can support you wherever you are. It's okay to seek help. In fact, choosing to prioritize your own well being is one of the most important ways to show your self appreciation. Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com failbetter today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H E L P.com failbetter.

[Unknown]

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[David Duchovny]

People on Wall Street. But here's the thing.

[Unknown]

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[David Duchovny]

This is kind of about failure. We missed a chance to, you know, have a. What's the word I'm looking for? An asset or a. You know, because you're the only person that knows what I was going through and I'm the only person that knows what you're going through. And we didn't make use of that.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

You know, it reminds me like in my lifetime, my dad and I didn't really do it and he's dead now and I can't. So there's things that you can miss if you don't.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh yeah.

[David Duchovny]

If you don't try to stand up and say, you know, just be vulnerable and say. I'd like to know what it's like for you. Yeah, I know that. I never asked that.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, me neither. To your point. About you ending. No, you. I mean, we never talked about it. I don't think I ever blamed you. I think I. There was part of me that.

[David Duchovny]

Are you talking about the first initial one? Yeah, the initial one. Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. I didn't. I don't think I blamed you at all. I don't think I was upset.

[David Duchovny]

Well, thanks a lot.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, I mean, I knew. I mean there was a point. I mean, for me at that time it was, can I too? You know, I thought. At first I thought, well, then we're both going to, because clearly I can't go on without him, so surely I'll be able to. And then they started talking about, well, if you stay on, you can actually make some good money. And I kind of went, oh, okay, well, that's good.

[David Duchovny]

Fuck him.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, fuck him.

[David Duchovny]

Come on, David.

[Gillian Anderson]

But also to the later point was it was never clear to me that there was a desire for the new series to be multiple seasons. It wasn't until I think we did, like we were promoting it or we were somewhere and we were sitting on chairs and somebody asked and I said, oh, no, no, no, this is all I'm. This is all I'm doing after this. And it was the first time that I got the sense of like, oh, am I the only one that thinks that? Everybody else seems really disappointed that I've just declared that.

[David Duchovny]

But it was, for me, it was always just like. I didn't even address. I don't even address it. It was like, okay, we're doing this and then we're doing. That's just the stupid way I go through life anyway. So it felt a little bit like, okay, done with you guys, you know, And I know that's not what you meant rationally.

[Gillian Anderson]

I knew that the end was problematic, though. I mean, it was problematic storyline wise, particularly for Scully. And I wasn't really enjoying the direction that it was heading. It didn't feel. And yet there was, you know, I didn't have a voice in it. And so I was. As much as anything, I felt like I needed to move on to something where I might have more of a voice.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, yeah, yeah, I understand that. I mean, for me, I never knew if we're being honest about, like, where the story goes. You know, it was originally like you getting pregnant that actually opened it up into realms that I don't think Chris ever thought it was gonna go, you know, in a way that kind of serendipity. Wrong word. But you having to disappear for a very short time, but you did have to disappear, kind of opened up this whole mythology thing that we eventually got into. So I never knew. I never knew where that was going anyway. I mean, I wasn't part of that planning either, I think. I mean, my point of view. And you can have, you know, your judgment of it is yours. I was just like, well, what else can happen? You know, Like, I could get pregnant, I guess. I mean, on this show, or Jillian can get pregnant. Or one of us can die. I mean, we're kind of backs against the wall. We've done everything else.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

I didn't know. So it didn't affect me in the same way. It didn't offend me in the way. I feel like you were offended, if you know what I mean.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, I think offended might be too strong a term. It was more. It felt like Scully's trajectory was no longer one of strength and agency. It felt like it was beholden to an old idea of what a woman is. And that's all she could talk about. Literally all she could talk about was William and finding William. And that's literally like a one track. A one track song. Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

It's interesting to me that you felt trapped there, because I always embraced, you know, because Mulder was not traditionally masculine. So I always felt kind of free in that area. And there were some times, you know, during the run of the show where I wanted to be more masculine. Cause I was like, hey, I want, you know, people to see me as like an action hero here. You know, like, why the fuck am I losing my gun all the time? You know?

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Why the fuck is Scully saving me every fucking week? You know, I totally get. And I think I said. I would have said that to the writer sometimes, like, you know, hey, let me win a fist fight. Can I win one fist fight? So I get that.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. I mean, one of the things that's come up so much in talking around the drinks brand and talking around the wider conversation is, you know, there's. With the drinks, there is a, you know, its own Instagram feed and et cetera. And my team, my G Spot team is constantly trying to populate.

[David Duchovny]

I can't believe you just said my G Spot team. I think we should all have a G Spot team.

[Gillian Anderson]

I feel very comfortable saying that.

[David Duchovny]

I'm not comfortable hearing it, but go ahead.

[Gillian Anderson]

I have a G Spot team, actually.

[David Duchovny]

Do you have more of the drink?

[Gillian Anderson]

I don't. It's good because I don't know if.

[David Duchovny]

It'S making me horny, but it is making me want to pollinate a flower. That butterfly.

[Gillian Anderson]

That was a tiny bit of butterfly pee.

[David Duchovny]

That butterfly pee.

[Gillian Anderson]

You know, when they would populate the Instagram feed with stuff related to me. So every once in a while, it's mostly not related. It's to do with the drinks and the ingredients that and the other. But then every once in a while, there's a pic of me or there's something. And at one point they were curious about the whole Scully effect thing. And I found my brain going, you know, that's old news. Like, who cares? Like, we, you know, that's been, you know, I've heard about that for so long, and then I suddenly realized for most of whether it's talking about the Scully effect or whether it's talking about pay equity, or whether it's talking about coming back to work after, you know, 10 days after a C section, or any of the things that for so long press has wanted me to continue to talk about that I've said I don't want to talk about that. Like, I've not enough already. Okay. All of a sudden I started to realize it's actually still a thing. These are still things. Pay equity is still a conversation. And the fact that a character, a particular kind of character, might have such an impact on particularly young women going into having an interest suddenly in stem, and that they are still being impacted by that and it's still a thing, rather than running away from it, why don't I run towards it and actually welcome that conversation? And so therefore, in welcoming those conversations and instead of, you know, saying, you know, yes, I fought for pay equity back then and wanting to leave it in my past, really, for the first time, agreeing to engage in the conversation. And I think there are certain things around women's empowerment, around the topic of feminism, around, you know, that I have engaged in instinctively and intuitively and almost had like a knee jerk reaction to in terms of self preservation, but I've never qualified it before. And part of what these conversations are asking of me is almost where I stand in all of that in a way that I have not wanted to embrace or put my head above the parapet necessarily. And I feel like in the process of talking about empowering other women, it's empowering me too. I feel like it's making me feel stronger in my voice that I might actually have a little something to say based on experience, but also based on what I'm suddenly realizing I actually feel is really important. And I've shied away from so much of that for so long.

[David Duchovny]

And so I feel like, I think also you. I mean, what I'm hearing, and if you're like me, it's like, what the fuck does that have to do with what I do? You know, it's like, I'm an actor, you know, Like, I want to think about that. That's what I love to do. It's tough for me to navigate that. But I hear what you're saying and I appreciate that, and I was. That whole pay equity thing, that's in our past as well. I was part of that.

[Gillian Anderson]

You were?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. And that. It kind of gets. Yeah. I think we should, like, maybe go into this area. Selfishly. Back then I thought I was like being attacked, you know, when I. When I thought, you know, like, oh, I'm being attacked for being offered more money when in fact, behind the scenes, I think, you know, I was like, eventually favoritations and all that stuff. Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

So.

[Gillian Anderson]

But attacked by who?

[David Duchovny]

The world.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, really?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

What, they blamed you in some way?

[David Duchovny]

In a way, yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, really? I didn't know that.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

I'm sorry.

[David Duchovny]

No, no. But it's probably just me making.

[Gillian Anderson]

But that's interesting that I wasn't paying attention to that side of it.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I didn't make you pay attention to it. And that kind of gets into. You brought it back to kind of the way we're raised and childhood and those kind of situations that arise in our lives to make us confront, you know, lack, you know, if we can extend to one another the grace of, you know, children trying to figure it out, then I think we can reach more forgiveness and more understanding. Not to excuse bad behavior, but to try to understand it, I think sometimes. And I wanted to learn a little bit about your childhood, you know, and whatever you want to share, you know, and that because I feel like the standards of success and failure are set early. Like, what I'm little kid, I have an idea of what a success is and what a failure is, and those are hard to shake, you know, like, for me, it would have been athletics, you know, So I got my failure out of the way early. So it's like everything else is like, oh, well, it's second best, whatever.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And I wonder what, you know, you growing up, what was the dream, what was the wake up of? Like, life is harder than I thought it was going to be.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. I mean, when I was growing up in the uk, we lived in apartments and apartment buildings and with an outdoor loo. And I think my parents were always, for a long time, really, really struggling financially and. And then we moved to the States when I was 11 because my dad had a job offer and he was going to chase the American dream of potentially getting rich quick. And your dad is English? No, he's American. Yeah. So we moved to London so he could go to the London Film School.

[David Duchovny]

So he could go to London.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

So they were very young parents.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. So they were. I think my mom was 26 when she had Me and they were just out of college. We were in Chicago. My dad was going to university, my mom was a social worker. And when I was six months old, he decided he wanted to go to film school. And he said to my mom, do you want to go to California or London? And she said, London. And so we then moved to Puerto rico for about 15 months because my grandparents were living there and my parents wanted to save money so that we could afford to move to London. And so we moved in with grandparents in Puerto rico for about 15 months and then we moved to the UK. And so, you know, my childhood, you know, it felt, you know, very much low income household and moving to the States was meant to be. My dad went ahead for a year, he traveled to the States to kind of set up base.

[David Duchovny]

And that's in Michigan.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. And growing up is Michigan, found a condominium for us to move into. And we were always going to move back to the uk. It was going to be temporary.

[David Duchovny]

You know, my family went through a similar thing.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, really?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. No, my mother Scottish, was Scottish. And the plan was always to move to London, actually.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, really?

[David Duchovny]

And when they got divorced instead of moving.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, wow. When you. How old were you when they divorced?

[David Duchovny]

Eleven.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, interesting.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. So I was. I really didn't want to move to London because I didn't play soccer and they didn't play basketball and baseball. That shows you what my world was. But, yeah, I was terrified that I was going to have to.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, wow.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

So they got divorced instead, which is even scarier than having to play soccer. So we moved to Grand Rapids and I think there were a lot of hopes and dreams about what that was going to be like.

[David Duchovny]

Did that feel like a dislocation to you at that age? Do you remember that?

[Gillian Anderson]

I remember being excited by it and then the scales fell and I think I struggled more than my parents perhaps knew. Went through a very, you know, some really difficult periods and then found. Found the punk rock scene. And there was something in that that answered something for me, that fed something for me that appealed to the angst that was building up inside me and my feeling of being an outsider and displaced and. And I think I had quite a fair amount of anger. But then when I found acting and theater initially, that definitely opened up something in me and I felt like all of a sudden there was something I could do and I had purpose. But one early area of failure for me, which is interesting, which is that when I went to university, I went to the Goodman Theatre school. It's a four year program. And I think they initially invited about 40 kids, and then by the fourth year it's down to 20. You have to be invited back every year. But the plays that I was cast in during those four years were only the ones that took place in the classrooms. They were never on the main stages. So for me, that whole period of time felt like perpetual. That I wasn't, you know, the girl that was my closest friend, Krista Strutts, that's a name, kept getting cast and was cast as the lead in the Misanthrope and the lead in this and the big, you know, and I was always stuck in the classrooms doing shows. And obviously the irony is that I went on to have an acting career and that has continued.

[David Duchovny]

And what was your conception of acting at that point? What was your method as opposed to how you work now, how you taught yourself later on through work?

[Gillian Anderson]

You know, when you're in acting school, you're encouraged to think about the voice and think about the movement and think about all the aspects of the tool that is you being honed. And I guess to a certain degree, I still rely on some of those things that I learned back then just in terms of, you know, being interested in immersing myself in all of those aspects. And so I think I probably use. I don't think it's much different than it was back then. I think I start earlier. I try and start as early as possible. I know for myself, at least, with something like Thatcher, I was terrified, absolutely terrified of that. And so I knew that I was going to start at the earliest possible moment to give myself a chance.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I remember you telling me about that in the makeup trailer when we were working on whatever reboot it was.

[Gillian Anderson]

No. Really?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, shit.

[David Duchovny]

Get to work on that early.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. And what about you? Do you. Is there anything. Did you go to?

[David Duchovny]

Have I learned anything?

[Gillian Anderson]

Did you go to a formal theater school?

[David Duchovny]

No, not a school, but I took classes, I guess with. The first class was with a woman named Marsha Haufrecht, and she was Strasberg Technique, which is known as the Method. And then I also took with a guy named Robert Modica, who taught Meisner technique.

[Gillian Anderson]

I love Meisner.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

So that's probably the one that I respond to the most. Yeah, yeah.

[David Duchovny]

So they were both very, very different. And I mean, for me, it's really having enough options on the day. Whatever's working, you know, it's like, it's. That's the exciting part about it to me. It's like I'm not exactly sure that this is going to work today, so. But, you know, having gone through it enough times, I know that I have other options to try out. You know, as I get older with it, you know, it all just comes back down to relaxation, you know, and just allowing relaxation. And also failure, obviously, the willingness to fail, you know, in the moment. Like, at first, you know, like when we started, I would have been mortified to fail, you know, in front of the crew, which is weird because it's, you know, it's not even. It's just the thing that's happening here with cameras looking at it, you know, it's like, that's not the performance, but it really was for me, getting to a point where, you know, I'm just gonna do. Try some things out and, you know, give me a little time, you know, to figure it out. So it's just been relaxation into that, you know, not being ashamed, you know, not being ashamed of failing in the moment. Yeah, but it's lifelong stuff, you know, because shame just doesn't go away because you want it to.

[Gillian Anderson]

And where do you feel like you're. Where does shame show up for you?

[David Duchovny]

That's all the time. We have shame all the time. I mean, I'm a shameful person. I mean.

[Gillian Anderson]

Would you say that that's been handed down to you?

[David Duchovny]

You identify from Adam and Eve all the way down. And I think, you know, I have parenting shame, I have sexual shame, I have social shame, you know, but, you know, I work on it and I try. And I guess I have podcast shame now, too, you know, to add to the mix. But it's like, I actually do know that my heart's in a good place and that I can come back to, you know, and I do know that what other people think of me is none of my business and that I constantly have to come back to.

[Gillian Anderson]

So I think that's one of the most important lessons of life.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. And, you know, we. You and I went through, you know, a rupture of, like, having a lot of people think about us and had to figure out how to live within that. And even, like, something stupid like. I don't know if you remember when we left Vancouver, you know, I went through a whole. The city hated me for the final year because I. And it's a joke, right? It's something to laugh at. But I gotta tell you, that really hurt.

[Gillian Anderson]

I bet.

[David Duchovny]

You know, so there's been a couple, you know, and, like, having to make an announcement that I was in rehab for sex addiction. Because I was forced to by somebody outing me. Not anonymously.

[Gillian Anderson]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

It wasn't something that I would have announced.

[Gillian Anderson]

You mean somebody within the group?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. So those two. I mean, as stupid as the Vancouver thing is, it's silly because it's about the weather, actually. What could be more neutral than the weather? But I felt like I'd been rejected by a city. And then, you know, the sex thing. There's all that shame.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

So there were. There'd been two, like, epic moments in my life where I felt, like, severe shame. Severe shame. As an adult.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

I don't know. As a kid, you know, those are all gone from me. I don't remember. I'm sure they exist on some plane, but those were hard.

[Gillian Anderson]

And how do you work through that?

[David Duchovny]

I don't know.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

I don't know. Just time. Just therapy. What are you saying? What exactly are you saying?

[Gillian Anderson]

I'm just wondering whether.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I've had therapy. I mean, I do think.

[Gillian Anderson]

And has that helped?

[David Duchovny]

I think talking helps. For the reasons that you said. For the reasons of. Well, no, you had an opposite reaction back in the day. But for me, if I. Because I'm catastrophizing in my head a lot.

[Gillian Anderson]

Catastrophizing.

[David Duchovny]

Catastrophizing. Thank you. So to actually get it out there and for somebody to say that is nuts, you know, or, oh, I get that. But, you know, that's probably not going to happen. And if it did, you'd deal with it, you know? So I just have a very kind of worrying brain. How about you?

[Gillian Anderson]

Which aspect?

[David Duchovny]

I don't know. I just want to stop talking. I want to stop talking about myself. I don't really care. I just want to shut the fuck up.

[Gillian Anderson]

I don't think. I don't think. I worry. I mean, one of the things that, you know, working for nine hard years on a series, you know, you learn more systems about how to deal with certain things. And, you know, I'm particularly good at compartmentalizing and particularly good at saying, I'm not going to think about that today. That's actually making me uncomfortable. I know I need to deal with it, but I'm going to think about that on Tuesday, which is, I guess, part of compartmentalizing, but. So I'm not really a worrier. I think I do have. I do have shame, but I'm pretty good at not letting it impact my thoughts. And I have no doubt that part of that is because I'm a workaholic and I don't give myself time or space to think about the things that I might be shameful about. And so I think that's probably one of the biggest areas of avoidance and concern is just the degree to which I work. I'm always working.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Gillian Anderson]

And so I think if I worked less, I'd be able to speak to my shame a lot more.

[David Duchovny]

Well, it's a good reason to want to continue working.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, exactly.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. You know, and. But I'm not sure it's healthy. I'm pretty sure it's not healthy. But, you know, it's like, it works. You know, it's better than.

[Gillian Anderson]

It really does work.

[David Duchovny]

It's better than the alternative.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. Feeling.

[David Duchovny]

Feeling. But, I mean, work obviously gives you something that you have to continue getting, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Gillian Anderson]

You know, Tell me about yourself as a parent, because I realized that I don't actually know you as a parent. Really?

[David Duchovny]

Oh, yeah. Very, very worried. I worry. You know, I worry about my kids all the time still, and they're pretty much adults now. But what I came to realize recently, and partly, you know, talking about failure so much on this thing, is I. It was. It was so difficult for me to watch my kids fail at anything. And, you know, I wanted to protect them from any kind of pain. And then I realized at some point that that's the best thing that could happen to them. You know, that's how you live. And we're all going to fail more than we succeed, and one has to learn how to fail. But it's still hard. I still want to, like, I still want to protect them. And it's probably the worst thing I could do, you know, and when they were young, I was very aware of them being, you know, raised by a famous person. And I really was. I would go out of my way to make them know that I was miserable, you know, like. Cause I was like, not miserable, but it's like, you know, they have this image when they go to school. It gets. Oh, yeah, your family, whatever, you know, is like that. So your life is like that. And I just remember saying to my son, you know, I'm never happy. You know, I'm always trying new things. It's never like. However it looks from the outside, like, let's just me and, you know, you're not competing with that. That's bullshit. You know, it's just a life. And it's a life that has ups and downs just like any other life.

[Gillian Anderson]

Did that work?

[David Duchovny]

No, I don't think so, but. Cause what you Say, doesn't matter. You know, they have to. They have to go through it themselves, you know. How about you?

[Gillian Anderson]

I mean, I'm very close to my kids. It's my happiest time, I think, when I'm with them. I really, really enjoy being a mother. And at the same time, I'm often not around because I work a lot. I find that hard. And yet at the same time, it's part of my choice, you know, I could choose not to work. And so it's an old.

[David Duchovny]

How old are the boys now?

[Gillian Anderson]

They are 18 and 16.

[David Duchovny]

Wow.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And are they in London?

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they travel around and have very, very big, full lives. And I find it so painful to observe them not getting what they want.

[David Duchovny]

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

You can't control anything.

[David Duchovny]

No, no.

[Unknown]

Hey, I just wanted to mention that if you're enjoying this interview so far, there's even more of our conversation available for lemonada Premium subscribers. Jillian and I talked for so long that not all of it could make.

[David Duchovny]

It into the episode, which makes sense.

[Unknown]

We had a lot to talk about. When we come back, we'll chat about her recent book want, her collection of anonymous letters from hundreds of women on sex and desire and how that came to be. Not how sex and desire came to be, but how her book want came to be. With lemonada Premium, we go into much more detail on this book and the ideas it explores, her beverage line and the mission behind all the work. But you can only hear it by signing up for lemonada Premium using the link in the show notes. We're back in just a minute.

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[David Duchovny]

The book want yes. Fascinating to me. Fascinating that you would curate this book. Do you want to explain what it is exactly? Yeah, you can explain it better than me. And then if you could tell me what it is that you wanted from the book, in a way, what effect did you want? You set out with this vision, okay, I want something. Something like My Secret Garden in a way, but updated. And then it became something else and now it's out there in the world and something else. So there's like three stages of it, I guess I'm asking about.

[Gillian Anderson]

Well, the first stage was me being asked whether it be something I was interested in, which I was. And I immediately understood why it would be interesting to do in terms of recreating a collection of anonymous sexual fantasies from women around the world. I mean, I did this series for a place called Sex Education and I had my dialogue on my socials has been, you know, very pinasigni oriented. And also the drink that I had already launched, which is as much as anything about inclusion, diversity, acceptance, showing, you know, the branding around the drink, as much as anything is about, is about asking yourself internally what it is that you feel comfortable with, what feels good to you. And you know, I feel like I have a tendency to be quite open handed and accepting of humans.

[David Duchovny]

And I think that's from what I've seen of you over 75 years. That's true. Well, you know, this, it interests me. I mean, I don't know, but I don't remember. I did Red Shoe Diaries a long time ago. It was actually like, it was like. But it was a guy asking for letters. It was actually, you know, send me your stuff that you couldn't tell your shrink.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, right.

[David Duchovny]

And so I'm like, oh my God, this is like nostalgic for me. But also that's just a personal aside. What I love about this, just as a human being, both of what you're talking about with the drink and with the book is you seem to be on a mission to kind of lessen shame. And that is really what this podcast has been about from the beginning. It's like, because forget about sexual shame, that's a whole other kettle of fish. Right? It's just, it's hard to unpack that. Yeah, it's all Hard to unpack. But shame around failure. And of course those two can, can go back and forth. So for me, you know, in my life, in the world that I see from my kids, in the world that I see on social media that you're referencing, because there are these impossible standards, shame is a killer.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And I see, I feel like you're very kind of fluent in social media stuff, whereas I'm hopelessly kind of distrustful of it to like a self sabotaging kind of point. And I'd just like you to maybe, maybe explain or talk to me about how you navigate your own existence on social media. Because I mean, you very literally said this is a brand or whatever you. So you have to be in that world. You're a private person. You're not somebody that shares overshares with the world. So there's a dichotomy here and it's one that I can't do. Maybe it's shame, I don't know. But yeah, I mean, enlighten me.

[Gillian Anderson]

I mean, the only reason why I have a more active relationship with it is because of the drinks brand and now with the book. But you know, at the very beginning I said, just as long as it's not about me, I don't want the drink to be about me. Yes, maybe at the very beginning when I need to sell it, you know, it can be, I'll do a video or something. But then I had this.

[David Duchovny]

That sounds like me.

[Gillian Anderson]

I had this, you know, false imagining that I'd be able to launch a drink without being front and center. And had I been told at the very beginning, oh no, no, no, but you have to. I mean, that's the only way to do it is you have to be front and center, I would have said, forget about it. The fact that it's kind of crept up on me and happened over time as I've started to build the brand and people are really enjoying it and we've expanded now into the States and I want it to be successful. I'm now more present in the process of trying to tell people about it. But it's really shifted my relationship with various forms of social media. Firstly, I don't have it on my phone. I don't do it myself. There's a girl that I've been working with for a decade maybe who does it for me. We have a great relationship and she says, there's this new trend that's going around. If you could do this for me, I will, you know, and sometimes I say fuck off. And sometimes I say, okay, that's. I. I can do that today. I can do that. Or. Or maybe when I'm in the mood this week, I'll do it for you. Or something like that. So we have it. I hold it lightly. I also don't share anything about my kids or my personal life. None of that shows up. I don't take pictures of my day, my food, my. You know, it's very. Hands, you know, arm's length. And so that's how I kind of make sense of it and how it feels like it works for me, where it's over there and yet here at the same time.

[David Duchovny]

Do you feel like that person on social media is a character that you're playing? Is it a.

[Gillian Anderson]

Is it a. I mean, early on, there were a couple videos that we did for the drink that I thought, I am just a performing monkey that is literally, you know. And I didn't like that so much. But then as it's grown and as we've, you know, I feel like I do less. I don't know. I'm very sensitive to it. There's a lot that I won't do.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I think what saves you is the fact that you actually believe in the drink itself. Just the drink. But also, you know, as you say, the brand is something else also that you believe in. So these things are kind of sacrifices or adjustments that you have to make in order to live in today's marketplace. I'm always told, you know, David, you can't just, like, go out there when you've got a project, you know, it looks bad. You've got to maintain, you know, a relationship that's not just using it as, like, an advertising platform. And I'm like, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to open myself up to that kind of relationship. And I get to this place where I'm like, well, fuck it. You know, either it's gonna do well or it's not. I don't wanna say anything about it, you know, and that's kind of how I started. When I started doing talk shows and stuff, I was like, I don't wanna do it. Let the movie do what it's gonna do. Yeah, but you can't really do that. It doesn't really work.

[Gillian Anderson]

I wish you could. But I also know that, I mean, I feel, particularly since talking about the book, but also with the drink, there's an element of it where I feel like I'm being of service. And so that makes it feel More worthy somehow, or authentic. Because I really believe in the messaging that's behind it. And I've never thought, I mean, when I first started to use the word brand or to talk to people about brand, I mean, I literally couldn't even say the word because it just felt so pretentious. And it's gotten easier. But it's gotten easier, I think, because it feels like there's purpose to it. It doesn't feel like it's a frivolous thing. It feels like we are. We're actually, particularly with the book, you know, we're properly building a community. And the community and the conversations that I've been having both with women who are reading the book, who are responding to it, but also to women journalists who been having a fantastic dialogue with around it has been really eye opening and profound at times and moving. And it's starting these bigger questions for women in the process of reading, it's becoming less about fantasy necessarily, and more about desire in life, you know.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

And desire in relationship, desire in friendship, desire in one's workplace.

[David Duchovny]

It's interesting when you're talking about this, I flash back to the episode of the X Files that you wrote and directed because that was kind of Eastern philosophy inflected and you know, everybody's kind of baseline understanding of Eastern philosophy or Buddhism is cessation of want. And it's interesting that you're on both sides of the issue. And I see not a struggle in a bad way, but I see your engagement with this conception of want on both sides calling you back many, many years ago. I wonder if that's a fair kind of perception.

[Gillian Anderson]

No, that is interesting just in terms of not reaching, not yearning in Buddhism, not of being satisfied with where you are. And that does seem that it's at odds with desire.

[David Duchovny]

I'm not saying it, Oz. I'm just saying different point of the spectrum. You know, there's a way to get to cessation of desire through desire and there's a way to get to cessation of desire through meditating or whatever.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And I.

[Gillian Anderson]

But it's a time. It feels like it's a time. It feels like it's a time for action. I mean, this particular moment, it's a good moment for the book to be out, but it's definitely a time for voices to be raised and particularly women to raise their voices about what it is that they want for themselves and what they. They don't want to be told that they should want for themselves or told what they should. And shouldn't do, shouldn't, shouldn't say. And so in that sense, it feels empowering and like a powerful conversation to be having at this minute.

[David Duchovny]

I hear that. Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

[Gillian Anderson]

What else? Are we done? Are we up?

[David Duchovny]

I think we're done.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

I don't have anything else. I got how we met. Yeah, but that's an old story. Right.

[Gillian Anderson]

We started running lines together. Socials wants us to comment.

[David Duchovny]

Has she been listening?

[Gillian Anderson]

No, but she wants us to comment on what the fuck was going on in that 90s picture. Do you remember that?

[David Duchovny]

I have no idea. But we don't look happy.

[Gillian Anderson]

No, we don't.

[David Duchovny]

You know, that could be any moment. It's like in between faces.

[Gillian Anderson]

You know, I look a face in between another face.

[David Duchovny]

Yes. That's not even an expression. That's like. That's in between.

[Gillian Anderson]

Is that somebody else's expression?

[David Duchovny]

Yes, that's in between expressions.

[Gillian Anderson]

And then there's that picture, which apparently people want to know about, but that's Clyde, that's my first husband, sitting down there, so it can't be that.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, I think. You know what I bet that is? I bet that's probably the wrap party.

[Gillian Anderson]

For the first year and a proper goodbye. Yeah, it's plustangulation at the same time.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, no, that's just like, hey, we did it.

[Gillian Anderson]

You know, and then there's that. Do you remember that?

[David Duchovny]

No.

[Gillian Anderson]

It looks like I don't have any trousers or anything on. And I'm not sure it's a candid shot.

[David Duchovny]

It's just one of those moments on set. Candid.

[Gillian Anderson]

They said smile.

[David Duchovny]

Whose idea was that? I don't know.

[Gillian Anderson]

I think it was Entertainment Weekly or something, wasn't it? It was some clever photographer saying, hey, well, you know.

[David Duchovny]

But it's the same thing. It's like we did so many pictures together, and it was like, hey, you know, why don't you lift her up? Why doesn't she lift you up? Why don't you? It's like you run out of shit to do. Yeah, but no, I don't remember that one. I do, actually. I think the one picture I have of us up on the wall is the one where I had the dress on.

[Gillian Anderson]

I love that picture.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

And I'm holding you up.

[David Duchovny]

Exactly.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. Yeah, I love that picture.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. I'm pretty sure none of this will be in the podcast. Thank you, Jillian.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, thank you, David.

[David Duchovny]

I'm gonna. It was a real pleasure and let's continue to talk. That would be nice. I would like That I would like that too. And talk without microphones around. I think that's probably a good idea too, at some point.

[Gillian Anderson]

You know how to find me.

[David Duchovny]

I do. Just trying to get some thoughts down. After having a very emotional, I felt and satisfying discussion with Jillian Anderson a couple days ago, coming out off of my podcast with Jason McGay and now with Jillian. These are two people that I have long histories with. Personal. Personal histories going back 30 years in Jillian's case. Now, is that right? Yeah, almost 30 years. So I got a real be in my bonnet about performative friendship. You know, where I see. Call me an old fuddy duddy, go ahead. But I see folks on Instagram or whatever displaying their friendship. It's very. It's very. Especially celebrity friendship. Displaying celebrity friendship in these two cases with. With Jillian and with Jason a couple weeks ago, I'm very. I'm watching myself, you know, like, I don't want to perform this friendship because the friendship is what's important, not the performance of the friendship, you know, but there I am, you know, asking her on the podcast. I guess I'm guilty a little bit, but I wanted to handle it in a way that wasn't performative. And I thought going into that, it would be. We get into it, you know, it's the failure. My failure. I can only speak for myself, my failure of, you know, I guess, being number one on the call sheet and not making sure everybody was okay. Everybody in this case being her, you know, going. Not being as good of a team player, not getting as good of a human being as I know that I can and should be, especially knowing what I knew she must have been going through, because I was going through something similar with the explosion of that show. So aside from being, I think, an interesting thing to talk about, it's very not therapeutic, but it's nice for me to be able to say I'm sorry or I regret or I could have done better. Because once that's out, all that's left is gratitude, and that's the best place to be. So whether or not, I mean, I know that I did the best that I could. Whether or not that was good enough, we'll never know. But it's a lot to dance around, you know, without getting into specifics. Right. But I. I think that we. We managed to do that. We managed to kind of cop to our part in a dysfunctional relationship that we had as co workers, you know, back in the day. There's more fail better.

[Unknown]

With Lemonada, Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. And a reminder, we've got bonus bonus content this week.

[David Duchovny]

That's the double bonus.

[Unknown]

Even more not only can you hear the full extended version of my behind the scenes thoughts after speaking with Jillian, but you can also hear even more of the interview, including more about her book Want and her G Spot sodas. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts by clicking the link in the show notes.

[David Duchovny]

Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zemma, Aria Brachi, Donnie Matias and Paula Kaplan. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of Newcomer content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

[Unknown]

Hi everyone, Gloria Rivera here, and we are back for another season of no One Is Coming to Save Us, a podcast about America's childcare crisis. This season, we're delving deep into five critical issues facing our country through the lens of child care, poverty, mental health, housing, climate change, and the public school system. By exploring these connections, we aim to highlight that childcare is not an isolated issue, but one that influences all facets of American life. Season 4 of No1 Is Coming to Save Us is out now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[G]

Hi, I'm Leisha Haley.

[H]

And I'm Kate Manig.

[G]

20 years ago, we met playing best friends on the set of the TV show the L Word, which quickly morphed into us being actual best friends for the rest of our lives.

[H]

Truly, it feels like we're an old married couple, but with fewer cats, although we each have a number of cats in our lives, and we're pretty much inseparable and have more or less zero boundaries.

[G]

Hence why we named our podcast pants, because at this point you can't have one leg without the other.

[H]

And each week we catch up with each other on the big and small things going on in our lives, which then leads to much oversharing and little left to the imagination. Whether it's sex or therapy or money fears, literally nothing is off the table in terms of discussion topics.

[G]

Oh, and we also like to talk about that wild ride that was the L word, you know, the genesis of our friendship.

[H]

And pants is out now, wherever you get your podcasts from Lemonada Media.