Chris Carter Wants You To Believe

Summary

Fail Better with David Duchovny: Episode Summary - "Chris Carter Wants You To Believe"

Release Date: June 3, 2025

In the episode titled "Chris Carter Wants You To Believe," host David Duchovny engages in a heartfelt and introspective conversation with his longtime friend and collaborator, Chris Carter—the creator of the iconic television series The X-Files. The discussion delves deep into their shared experiences, creative processes, the inevitable challenges of collaboration, and the overarching theme of failure as a catalyst for growth.

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1. Reconnecting and Shared Memories [00:55 – 13:00]

The episode kicks off with a nostalgic recounting of a recent lunch David and Chris had with Gillian Anderson, co-star of The X-Files. Gillian shares a humorous "meet cute" story involving Anthony Kiedis at their favorite smoothie spot, highlighting the camaraderie among the cast and crew.

Notable Quote:

• Gillian Anderson (02:22): "This is what they call a meet cute in Hollywood."

This segment sets the tone for the episode, emphasizing the strong personal bonds formed during the production of The X-Files.

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2. The Evolution of Creative Dynamics [03:51 – 08:04]

Chris reflects on his early days working with Gillian and the influence she had on his approach to storytelling. He praises her ability to balance objective study with personal experience, which allowed him to rediscover his love for plot and narrative structure.

Notable Quote:

• Chris Carter (03:51): "Watching you write, watching you shepherd the other writers in The X-Files, I relearned a love for plot and for the kind of smart machinery that keeps somebody guessing."

Gillian adds depth to this discussion by detailing the collaborative process of using three-by-five cards to plot episodes, a method that not only streamlined their storytelling but also fostered a competitive yet creative environment.

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3. Navigating Professional Challenges [09:28 – 16:36]

The conversation shifts to the tumultuous period during the later seasons of The X-Files. Chris opens up about his departure from the show, expressing feelings of abandonment despite mutual exhaustion and creative fatigue.

Notable Quote:

• Chris Carter (10:37): "I feel like I've always felt like a bit of an abandonment, not by you, but of you in that sense."

Gillian recounts the complexities of their professional split, including legal battles with Fox and personal reconciliations marked by unexpected gestures of friendship, such as a spontaneous hug that provided much-needed closure.

Notable Quote:

• Gillian Anderson (12:50): "I just hugged you. And it was almost like it was a reflex."

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4. The Strain of Success and Burnout [16:07 – 21:10]

Gillian opens up about the immense pressure of showrunning Millennium and preparing for the X-Files movie. She discusses the intense work hours, the emotional toll of juggling multiple projects, and the difficult decision to cancel shows like Millennium and Harsh Realm despite their potential.

Notable Quote:

• Gillian Anderson (17:57): "It was the hardest year of my life. I don't know how I made it."

Chris empathizes, sharing his own struggles with balance and the fear of creative stagnation, highlighting the universal challenges faced by creators striving for excellence.

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5. Reflecting on Failure and Growth [21:22 – 38:10]

The dialogue deepens as both discuss specific instances of perceived failures and their subsequent growth. Gillian narrates the critical reception of Millennium and offers insights into how setbacks can serve as pivotal learning moments.

Notable Quote:

• Chris Carter (38:10): "I want to hear your big boy voice. Because I was so... it was a gut punch."

They explore the psychological impacts of criticism and failure, underscoring the importance of resilience and self-improvement. Chris shares his experience with negative reviews of his work and how supportive relationships helped him navigate those low points.

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6. Creative Processes and Mutual Influence [38:10 – 48:36]

Gillian and Chris delve into their distinct creative methodologies—Gillian's structured, repetitive approach to pottery paralleling her storytelling, and Chris's quest for constant innovation. They discuss how their differing styles complemented each other, fostering a dynamic and productive creative partnership.

Notable Quote:

• Gillian Anderson (27:13): "This is a story about my serialized brain."

Chris relates this to his own tendency to seek new narratives, appreciating how their collaboration balanced stability with creativity.

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7. Final Reflections and Future Collaborations [48:40 – 69:32]

As the episode draws to a close, Chris shares revelations about the psychological underpinnings of his character Mulder in The X-Files, analyzing trauma and its manifestations. Gillian provides her perspectives on critical reception and the challenges of fulfilling personal artistic visions within industry constraints.

They conclude with mutual appreciation, acknowledging the maturity and equality that have defined their enduring friendship post-The X-Files.

Notable Quote:

• Chris Carter (69:04): "You were the only one I told."

David Duchovny wraps up the episode by reflecting on his friendship with Chris, expressing regret over past hurts but celebrating their growth into peers and equals.

Closing Thoughts:

• David Duchovny (69:32): "We have matured into peers and we are friends and equals now."

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Conclusion

"Chris Carter Wants You To Believe" serves as a profound exploration of the intertwined lives of two creative minds navigating the highs and lows of television production. Through candid dialogue, Duchovny and Carter illuminate the complexities of collaboration, the inevitability of failure, and the strength found in enduring friendships. This episode not only appeals to fans of The X-Files but also offers valuable insights for anyone interested in the realities of creative endeavors and personal growth.

Transcript

[David Duchovny]

Guess what? Discover is accepted at 99% of the places that take credit cards nationwide. You heard right, 99%. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts. You're stuck in the past. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Learn more at discover.com creditcard.

[Megan]

Hi, I'm Megan, and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcast.

[Chris Carter]

Lemonader. I'm David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better, A show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Chris Carter is a TV and film writer, producer and director. He's also an avid surfer and master craftsman and artist. But most importantly in my life, he's the creator of the X Files. We actually had just gotten lunch a few days ago with Gillian Anderson as well. And of course, Chris had a story to tell me about what happened after we parted. So we picked up there.

[Gillian Anderson]

Let me tell you the funny story. You and I had lunch with Jillian on. On Saturday.

[Chris Carter]

Saturday.

[Gillian Anderson]

And I. I dropped you off, and then I went to our favorite smoothie place.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yes. And Sun Life.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

And I walk in, and who's standing in line in front of me but Anthony Kiedis.

[Chris Carter]

Okay.

[Gillian Anderson]

And you've seen him around the hood, probably. Yeah. Anyways, very recognizable. And so I thought, now what do I do here? Do I say, you know, just say, hey, love the music. You know what I'd usually say, but that thing, you know, I'll just leave.

[Chris Carter]

You want to say John Bartley, poet and the prophet John Bartley told me how to off it. That is the insidest of all jokes. And screw you. We're not going to tell you what it means, but go ahead. What did you say?

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, John Bartley. Anyway, so I decided I'm just going to leave him alone. This guy probably gets hit on all the time. Anyway, so he orders and then I order, and then standing there waiting for our food, our drinks or whatever, and he's got some people he's talking to, and a young woman walks in with a dog. And you know me, I'm a Sucker for dogs. And so I bend down high, you know. What's your dog's name? My dog's name is Tinkerbell. And the next thing I know, Anthony Kiedis is knelt next to me petting the dog, too. And so here I am.

[Chris Carter]

You know, this is what they call a meet cute in Hollywood.

[Gillian Anderson]

A meet cute. And so he pets the dog for a little bit, and he gets up and moves on. And the young woman looks at me and she says, can I ask you a question?

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

Are you Chris Carter?

[Chris Carter]

It's a good one. Well, thanks for coming on. And it reminds me, I remember when we used to do Kevin and Bean.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And you went on and they said you had the voice of God.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

So that's why I thought we needed video today. Because. Because your voice is too overwhelming without.

[Gillian Anderson]

Saying, I've got a radio face.

[Chris Carter]

No, it's not the radio face. But one of the things, you know, you mentioned, Jillian. But one of the things that's interesting to me when I'm doing this with people that I know, with people that are my friends, people that I've known for 20, 30 years.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

Is that. Well, first of all, I get to kind of apologize about shit or just reminisce. But also, as I study objectively, you know, I read materials on you and stuff like that, I get kind of a different perspective, you know, as friends don't, at least in my generation, don't spy on one another, don't read about one another in that way. And I enjoy that. And actually, I usually take a swim after I, like, take a bath in Chris Carter isms and history. And then I swim and I see what comes up because I'm not counting laps. I'm just. It's that meditative state. And something came to me today that I want to get to later that I really want to talk about. It's interesting, not personal, but something about the show and something that I've said before, you know, aside from just my entire career being made possible by the X Files, which is, you know, obvious history. But specifically. And again, I've said this before, when I think about what I learned from you on the show was really, as I've said, you know, I was coming out of graduate school. I was reading and writing these highfalutin papers about deconstruction and had nothing to do with, like, the love of the story that I might have gotten into reading in the first place. I think as kids, we get into the story. That's what we want to hear. And I no longer was doing that because it was more of like. It's like if you think about being a general surgeon. And now I had to do just brain surgery. I had to learn about the brain and by osmosis. Over a period of a few years, watching you write, watching you shepherd the other writers in the X Files, I relearned a love for plot and for the kind of smart machinery that keeps somebody guessing, that goes to the highs and lows. So without that, I think I'd be making nonsensical movies that don't go anywhere I started or even writing. I was like, okay, it's not about language. It's about the plot. At least in our business.

[Gillian Anderson]

But it is. I mean, movies are about plot. I mean, movies that have no plot, some can be good. Terrence Malick movies I admire.

[Chris Carter]

Right.

[Gillian Anderson]

Anyway. But you know that when I did the pilot for the X Files, I wrote a 17 page, single space outline. So story was very important. I didn't just wing it. When we started up the show, we hired writers. Morgan and Wong came on the show. Glenn Morgan and James Wong. And they had been working on Stephen Cannell shows. And they brought with them a bulletin board. And we put up three by five cards. And that became the kind of the way the.

[Chris Carter]

What's happening? Oh, the Mayo Clinic.

[Gillian Anderson]

It's my kiln guy. I'm putting in a kiln today.

[Chris Carter]

Well, we'll get to your pod. Right.

[Gillian Anderson]

All right. I mean, anyway, okay. So I'm putting in a kiln today, and that's my kiln guy calling.

[Chris Carter]

So wait, where were you? You were talking about. Oh, the story. Morgan Wong and.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, Morgan Wong. They brought these bulletin boards and three by five cards. And that became the way we plotted the episodes.

[Chris Carter]

Well, look, here's more of your.

[Gillian Anderson]

More three by five cards. Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Carter]

But your handwriting was perfect.

[Gillian Anderson]

Mine is not. That was a Glenn Morgan thing. He actually had beautiful penmanship and he would make these cards. And so that became also competitive. Who could make the most beautiful cards?

[Chris Carter]

Really?

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. And anyway. And we've worked like that ever since. Yeah. And I think. I think Vince Gilligan still works that way on Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. I think. I'm not positive about that.

[Chris Carter]

Well, I think it's smart because, you know, you're gonna. I remember we would. We would work on some scripts and we would just take this card. This scene could maybe go over here or this scene goes over here. Maybe it comes back, maybe it doesn't.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And that all. That all makes sense. So I wanted to thank you for that, which is. I can't repay that thanks because it's really opened me up into another part of who I am also, you know, giving me the opportunity to write and direct on the show, which she didn't have to do. Now it's kind of a. It's almost de rigueur that stars of the show.

[Gillian Anderson]

Well, now the stars are also the producers.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. So. But then it wasn't.

[Gillian Anderson]

No.

[Chris Carter]

And, you know, it was probably seen as a, you know, some kind of gift or. Yeah, whatever. Which I. I never wanted it to be. I just wanted to earn it. And you said. Well, I said to you if I'd like to write and direct one. And you said, well, if you write something good, you can direct it, and.

[Gillian Anderson]

Then maybe you can direct it.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

No, no, no, no, you didn't. Well, no, he.

[Chris Carter]

No, he didn't put it like that. But you say if you write something.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. And, you know, I gave Gillian a shot, too. And, you know, the great thing about the X Files was that you were surrounded by people who wanted it to be good from the beginning. And, you know, that's not, in my experience, always the case. Some people just show up for work. But certainly when we shot in Vancouver, it was that esprit de corps was. It was the reason I got up every day to do the show, do the job.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. And when you were. When you were a kid, your ambition, your writerly ambition didn't kick in till later, right?

[Gillian Anderson]

Well, it kicked in. I didn't realize it until later. In fourth grade.

[Chris Carter]

You're a late bloomer.

[Gillian Anderson]

A late bloomer. Anyway. Yeah, we had a little exercise in fourth grade, and it was more like advertising. And the teacher said, come up with something about reading that. Something that could, you know, just a sentence. And I came up with a sentence anyway.

[Chris Carter]

Do you remember the sentence?

[Gillian Anderson]

Yes, I do.

[Chris Carter]

What was.

[Gillian Anderson]

Was, don't read in the dark. Let's light up the room.

[Chris Carter]

Oh.

[Gillian Anderson]

And it's like, not bad. He. He praised me for it. So, you know, I. It was one of those things where.

[Chris Carter]

You got the applause.

[Gillian Anderson]

Exactly.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

The hook.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That guy was. He's the problem. That guy put the hook in you. The other part of knowing people that come on like this is that I get to go over some difficult times.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

You know, and something, you know, kind of lost in the times that we've, you know, done a reboot of the show twice now, and even the second movie, you know, going back to me leaving the show like The. The end of the seventh year, I did half the eighth year. You did ninth year without me until I came back for the end of the ninth year, which was the end of the show. And, you know, I don't know that we've ever really. We don't have to, like, hash it out, but it's. I realized later that that was a difficult thing to do, even though, you know, you may have been as tired as I was or as wanting to move on as much as I was. But, you know, I feel. Because I consider myself a team player, so I feel. I've always felt like a bit of an abandonment, not by you, but of you in that sense. And I don't know if we're going for any resolution here or anything like that. This is not like the VH1 version of it.

[Gillian Anderson]

By season seven, we were all tired. We'd made a big move from Vancouver to Los Angeles. We had done well over 100 episodes. So there were legal, contractual things going on that were fraught. And you and I had a parting. And we became. I don't want to say mortal enemies, but it was a difficult time, and it was resolved. And you came to me. I remember you coming to my office. I remember right where you're standing, and you said, I'm going to leave. One of the parts of this agreement is I'm going to leave the show for a time. That was actually something you had worked out legally with Fox. But you came to me and told me that I actually just reminded me of something. So that was a forgettable part of the show for me because you and I were at odds.

[Chris Carter]

And I was in a lawsuit with Fox while working on the Fox lot and actually had my security sweep my trailer for bugs. We were afraid that we were being bugged. We were.

[Gillian Anderson]

I ran into. During that time in Malibu, I was walking, and you pulled over with Taya and got out of the car to say something to me. Not something mean or provocative, but I remember out of the blue, I hugged you.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, yeah. I don't remember.

[Gillian Anderson]

I just. I just hugged you. And it was almost like it was. It was a reflex. It was. You know, I just did it. And I think it surprised both of us.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

I repressed it. Well, thank you. I got the resolution that I wanted. I didn't even know. And one of the things that I was touched about that you did, and it's. It's really just a gesture, but it was a beautiful gesture to me was that you were. I was number one on the Call sheet. And you retired the number one, which was really nice.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

So moving on from that. But, you know. And then. And then also, I have apologized for this, but the last time we were shooting in Vancouver, we had a screaming match with one another. Like the last. Probably the last time we've been on set together.

[Gillian Anderson]

I don't think we had a screaming match. I think I screamed at you. You were a much. You were much more. You had much sang froid than I did.

[Chris Carter]

Well, what happened was it was the last time we've ever shot together, which is. Which I don't want it to be the last time I ever shit together, if only for that reason. And I was trying to get an early flight back home, and we were going, as we always do, we were going longer. And I suggested that I would. On this one particular shot, that I would turn back and deliver the line so that you wouldn't have to turn around.

[Gillian Anderson]

Right.

[Chris Carter]

Which was going to be another 45 hour, because you're turning all the way around.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And you rightly, as a director, got pissed off that I was trying, like, simplify your work and get out of there. And we had an argument about it.

[Gillian Anderson]

After 11 seasons. I just had it with you.

[Chris Carter]

So. And it was so uncharacteristic of us. It was because you're not a screamer and I'm not a screamer.

[Gillian Anderson]

It came out of nowhere for me. It was like one of those things where I just reacted. I didn't know I was gonna. There was no premeditation.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, well, but we've talked about that. But I think it might be interesting for people to know the cliche may be true in this case, is that we both do care. And it comes from that you're trying to do the best work that you can do. I'm trying to get home. No, I'm trying to do the best work I can do and get home. Because that's what you actually learn over the time of being on a show like that is how to balance that. How do I work this fucking hard and continue to do good work? And I gotta, like, take my time when I can. But this brings me to your position. And this was another thing that we kind of were at odds about when you started Millennium, which was in the third year.

[Gillian Anderson]

Fourth.

[Chris Carter]

Fourth year of the show. So this is what we're talking about for your plate. And I don't think people. People will never work like this like you did that year in television. So I'm thinking if it's the fourth year we did the first X Files movie. When? Between the fourth and the fifth year.

[Gillian Anderson]

We were comparing it in the fourth year.

[Chris Carter]

So in the fourth year you are executive producer in showrunning because Morgan and Wong took over a couple years. Showrunning, a new show of 25 episodes, probably X files of 25. These are 25 hours. So you are the figurehead responsible, the executive producer, the creator of these shows for 50 hours. 50 hours in one year. That's you're producing out of your body.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, it was, it was the hardest year of my life. I don't know how I made it.

[Chris Carter]

No, there's more. You were also preparing to shoot the movie. Feature film.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

The movie of your baby, the X Files.

[Gillian Anderson]

Right.

[Chris Carter]

I don't understand how you were able.

[Gillian Anderson]

And the thing that also, what people don't appreciate or can't appreciate because they've changed the rules is that we would often do 16 hour days.

[Chris Carter]

Well, yeah, that's us. Yeah. I'm focusing right now.

[Gillian Anderson]

I know. On the. Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

But I mean, it's hard to even imagine. And you're talking about. Let's talk about success and failure. So that's. These are the fruits of success, that you're going to work yourself to death.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yep.

[Chris Carter]

Beyond that. Trying to make sure. And I know this about you. You didn't want to have a lemon. You know, you wanted every show. It wasn't like you see most procedurals. I have to say, I'll watch a procedural and I'll go, yeah, it's good filler. It's a good placeholder, whatever. But no, the X Files and Millennium both wanted to have a movie worthy idea executed in 46,7 minutes of television and that you were taking that seriously as a commandment to yourself. So it is. I just wonder what your state of mind was in that year. And then I would apologize again because I was pissed off because I thought, Chris is not with us.

[Gillian Anderson]

Right.

[Chris Carter]

You know, Chris is like splitting my time. Chris is, yeah. Which is your prerogative.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

We all wanted to do other things, but I was like, hey, daddy's like, you know, got another girl crossed down, you know.

[Gillian Anderson]

Well, I, you know, I didn't want to do another thing, but Fox came to me and said, you've got to, you know, this is your brand and run with it.

[Chris Carter]

So that's how that all came out.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. It wasn't an ultimatum, but this is what you should be doing.

[Chris Carter]

And in a way, that's the trap of success.

[Gillian Anderson]

It is. And even though I'm really proud of Millennium. And I pulled the plug on Millennium too soon because we can talk about failure for show called Harsh Realm that I thought was going to be a hit. And I didn't imagine myself doing three shows.

[Chris Carter]

Three shows, yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

So, you know, and a movie franchise as. Yeah, as it works out. I pulled the plug on Millennium and Harsh Realm didn't go. I, I want to tell you a story that came out of that. The writer, creator of Blacklist, John Boken Camp.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

Very nice, talented guy from Nebraska where I don't know why they just. The Nebraska produces these creative geniuses. He called me at some point during the Blacklist because I had, I had talked to him before he started the show and we, you know, discussed how it works. And he had never done a TV series. He called me some years, maybe five, six, I don't know how many years in, and said, look, I have an opportunity to do something else. And I'm thinking about pulling the plug on the Blacklist. I've done what I needed to do. And I said from experience, you shouldn't do that. If you've got something that works and you like it and people are invested in it, keep going.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

And in fact, he did.

[Chris Carter]

Was it, was it also. I mean, you're, you're kind of laying it at the doorstep of. You didn't see the future. You know, he's a harsh run. You thought it was going to be a hit. Millennium, you thought was kind of staying in its lane at that point. Three years.

[Gillian Anderson]

I mean, rating it did well enough.

[Chris Carter]

It was going to keep on going.

[Gillian Anderson]

It was, yeah, they would have gone with it.

[Chris Carter]

But was it not, was it not a desire to tell different kinds of stories? Did you see a different story in Harsh Realm that you were going to be able to tell different kinds of episodes of television?

[Gillian Anderson]

I got excited about Harsh Realm because I got a chance to work with Dan Sakheim again who had produced the X Files pilot with me. There were a bunch of us that I was excited to work with and I thought it was a really good concept and that's a story in itself. And so I thought it was. And I still think it was a little bit ahead of its time anyway. I thought it was going to be a winner. And lo and behold, I had made, I made two mistakes at the same time.

[Chris Carter]

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[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

I don't think you're there like me. I'm going, I want to try something new.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

Because I'm not a detail guy like you. And you are like, I'm going to make the perfect bowl. And once I do that, it's hard to do that. It looks like it might just be a bowl. Let's just say tell us what you did with pottery for a moment and then I'll try to make that leap.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. This is a story about my serialized brain. I love working with my hands. And it's funny when you go into television and there is a manufacturing quality to the actually making of something. But when I was in high school, I'd done a little pottery and art class and so I started playing baseball in college and I wanted to take anything left. Yes, Lefty. I wanted to take any class where I didn't have to study too hard because I wanted to focus on sports and I wanted easy credits. So I took a pottery class and it worked out that my pottery teacher saw some native talent and he had a studio. I mean, this was. This guy lived and breathed ceramics. He had A studio. And he asked me if I would come make pottery for him. I quit baseball.

[Chris Carter]

You did? You quit?

[Gillian Anderson]

I quit mostly because I wanted to go surfing. But I, and I started making pottery for this guy and I swear I would have done it for free. This is how much I liked it. And I got good enough at it that I could be called a production potter, which means I would sit for hours at a time and make the same thing over and over and over or the same six things over and over. And I loved it. People say, how did you do that? You know, I would sit once, I sat for 14 hours and made 300 pieces of pottery. All the same. You know, you weigh things, you weigh the clay out and you make the same thing over and over and over. I loved it.

[Chris Carter]

Well, that kind of jives with your love of flying as well, which, as you said, it's like it's redundancy.

[Gillian Anderson]

It is redundancy. It's.

[Chris Carter]

But there's, but there's a freedom in that.

[Gillian Anderson]

Well, I mean, it's about the process and you have to, you know, David, essentially that David Brooks piece, it's about the process. There's something actually meditative and, I don't know, engaging about doing the same thing over serialized and what is television? It's serialization of a concept.

[Chris Carter]

It's so interesting to me because my brain is exactly the opposite from that. Yeah, I, I'm always looking for that, that, that new thing. I, I, I don't have that kind of stick to it. Iveness that you have there. So I'm not going to beat myself up for it, but it takes all kinds, I guess.

[Gillian Anderson]

Well, and you know, I worked at Surfing magazine, as you know.

[Chris Carter]

Well, that's the thing. It's like. Well, we just talked about your Anison Mirabilis, what was it called?

[Gillian Anderson]

Right.

[Chris Carter]

You know, like 50 episodes of TV and a feature film. But you were not a kid either, like when you hit it as a writer.

[Gillian Anderson]

Right.

[Chris Carter]

So there were so.

[Gillian Anderson]

Well, you know, before the X Files, I had worked in Hollywood for seven years. So, so what were you doing?

[Chris Carter]

Can we, can we call those not failures, but like apprenticeships or. Who were your mentors? Who did you learn?

[Gillian Anderson]

I was learning how to do the job.

[Chris Carter]

Who were you learning from?

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, I had wonderful. My next door neighbor was James Mangold, who just directed the Dyl movie. I was, I was in the animation building at Disney. I had been hired. I'm not sure I'm telling the story kind of backwards. I had been, I was working at surfing Magazine. I met Dory, my wife, to be. And she was a screenwriter.

[Chris Carter]

And so you hadn't thought of it before that?

[Gillian Anderson]

Not really. You know, I was a movie fanatic. And we can go back to the pottery again and I'll tell you about going to film. Going to film school. Anyway, I met her and she, you know, we talked about movies, and she said, you know, sound like you, you'd like to make a movie someday. I said, you know, I would. I have an idea. She says, write it. And I wrote the script. And luckily, as it were, her sister. I'm sorry, her cousin. Her sister was actually a casting director. Noted casting director. Cast the first Star Wars, Diane Crittenden. Anyway, her cousin. Everyone was in Hollywood. Her cousin was an agent. And I showed the script to her cousin. Her cousin showed it around. I took meetings. I was told that I should write a second script. I did. The next thing I knew, I'm telling you, I was a surfer in the morning, and by the afternoon, I was a Hollywood screenwriter. That's how crazy it was.

[Chris Carter]

Right. So what were those scripts that you came up with in that seven years before you hit it with the X Files?

[Gillian Anderson]

The first script I wrote was, you know. You know, I'm from Bellflower, and I wrote a script about three kids in Bellflower in the early 1970s who are baseball players who have no idea that they can get out of the Vietnam draft and they're going to war because they don't know how to not go. They don't know about bone spurs. And the script is called National Pastime, so it's near and dear to me. It'll never get made.

[Chris Carter]

That was a pilot script or a movie script?

[Gillian Anderson]

No, that was a movie script. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know about television. Well, I knew about television, but it's funny, I. I say I went to film school when I was making pottery, and I would have the TV on for 10 hours a day while I was making pottery. And it was a film school of sorts with all those great 70s shows. And so I. I kind of got in the swing of things that way.

[Chris Carter]

But not. Not consciously in a way.

[Gillian Anderson]

No, no, but I just, you know, and then I would listen on at night, on Sunday nights. There was a show called Dr. Demeno on.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, I remember that.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. I think it was KLOS or. Yeah, yeah, KLOS or KRLQ. And I loved it. I just. I loved the Dr. Demento Show. It was those novelty songs, you know, Steve Martin.

[Chris Carter]

I was like, Weird Al Yankovic type stuff.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, like, like that, but, you know, just wonderful nuttiness. And it's plugged into my goofy sense of humor.

[Chris Carter]

Well, I think you're coming at things from not an ironic angle, but a parody angle. There's part of that in you that is always there. Which is interesting when you think about the X Files, because it's not parody at all. It's more like prophecy, in your case. But. But in terms of writing, you're talking about ingesting by osmosis in a way, while you're doing pottery. These 70s shows. There was no other mentor at that point that took you under his or her wing and said, hey, kid, I think you got talent. You know, because you're not a kid at that point either. You're in your 30s, right?

[Gillian Anderson]

No, at that point I was about 26.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, okay. So you were a kid.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, I was. Anyway. Oh, I just, I. I had a moment. I had two moments. First of all, I was an art major when I entered college and that lasted about two years. And then I went down to the journalism department and said, how do I make this my major anyway? But I had a really fortunate moment episode in my life where there was a teacher, a writing teacher named Mr. Lackman. And we used to do blue book essays. Remember Blue Book essays? Anyway, I did a review of. Call it a review of Billy Budd or Melville's Billy Budd. I wrote it and I remember calling Billy Bud self actualized. And it was like a term then. Yeah. And he got up and read it in front of the class and he said, after he read it, he said, I wish all my students could write like this. It was like one of those moments where it's like, you know, I was meant to do this.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. And then the second one was I had a. When I entered journalism school, I had a teacher named Dr. Stein. And I did a piece of journalism on a guy named Gaylord Carter. Gaylord Carter is a. Was maybe one of the most famous theater organists. So he would play the organ to the silent movies. Anyway, I got to know him and I did a story on him. It was perfect. You know, I. Here's my subject. I know him. I can, you know, share a last name. Yeah. Share last name. Anyway, so I wrote the piece and I handed it in and I got like a D. And he said to.

[Chris Carter]

Me, is that same teacher?

[Gillian Anderson]

Same teacher. He said to me wisely, he said, you let your subject get away. You, you know, you had him and you let him get away. There's nothing you tell me about him that I don't already know. And it was.

[Chris Carter]

I'm not sure I understand that.

[Gillian Anderson]

Well, he thought that I could have done a much deeper, more illuminating story than I did and was. Because I was a novice, I was a rookie, and I didn't. I just didn't construct the story very professionally. And two years later, I had a journalism teacher. I gave him something to read, and he says, you're gonna make it. This is good. You're gonna make it as a journalist.

[Chris Carter]

But in that moment of getting the D. Yeah. What did you think?

[Gillian Anderson]

He was right.

[Chris Carter]

You just thought, he's right.

[Gillian Anderson]

No, he was right. And it was. You know, it was one of those moments. Fail better. Yeah, It. You know, I'm. I'm a hard worker and hate to hear the word no. And I wanted to. I wanted to be good at what I was doing.

[Chris Carter]

You know, I sent you that clip of Vonnegut.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. Junior, I love that.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. And, you know, the way he ends it is, is think of a teacher who made your life better.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yes.

[Chris Carter]

And say the name to the person next to you and. And the audience. You hear it. You hear how loud it is.

[Gillian Anderson]

Right, right.

[Chris Carter]

And I come. My mom was a teacher. My sister's a teacher. My family or teachers. And, you know, it's cliche to say they're so important, but also, as a parent, I realized as my kids were going through the education system, it's really like lightning striking when you get. And it's not just the guy who's. Or the woman who's, like, in your corner and saying, rah, rah. It's also the guy that gives you the D. Yeah. And says, you can do better.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. I credit him for making me better.

[David Duchovny]

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[Chris Carter]

I'm not big on trends, but I am big on clothes that feel good and last. That's why I have so much respect for quints and their high quality staples. Quince has the things you'll actually want to wear with summer on the horizon. Check out their organic cotton silk polos and European linen beach shorts to wear together or not. The colors, materials and styles make it easy to mix and match with your wardrobe or with other items from their collection. Another great thing is that all of Quince's products are half the cost of pieces from similar brands. How is that? Quince works directly with top artisans to cut out the middleman, which means you get luxury pieces without the markups. And you can feel good knowing they're only working with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. Personally, I'm looking forward to wearing the cashmere hoodie that they're sending my way and I have really enjoyed the long sleeved polo. I've gotten a lot of compliments on the polo shirt that I look pretty good in it. That's what they say. That's what the kids are saying. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from quince. Go to quince.comfailbetter for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com failbetter to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com failbetter from the author of Fleischman Is in Trouble Long Island Compromise is an exhilarating novel about one American family and the dark moment that shatters their suburban paradise. Now in paperback for a perfectly portable read you won't be able to put down. As author Taffy Brodess or Achner writes of the protagonists, the Fletchers were not just rich, but extraordinarily, absurdly, kidnappably rich. What ensues is a drama filled story for the ages. Traces the entirety of one family's history. The novel spans decades and generations, all the way to the present day. And it confronts the mainstays of American Jewish life. There are themes of success, ambition and inheritance and even pyramid schemes, right wing capitalists and psychics. And at its core is the mostly unspoken love and shared experience that unite a family forever. Long Island Compromise has been named a best book of the year by numerous publications including the New York Times Book Review, Oprah Daily, the New Yorker, Time, and the Washington Post, to name just a few. Kirkus Reviews described Long Island Compromise as a great American Jewish novel, and the Los Angeles Times ranks it among the pantheon of great American novels. Find it now in hardcover and paperback wherever books are sold for the fans. There was a time when. When Chris wanted Jillian and I to go to couples therapy. I'm not sure if he meant it as a fictional television couple or a real life couple that we're trying to.

[Gillian Anderson]

No, you. You guys were at odds.

[Chris Carter]

Absolutely, we were. This was very early too.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yes. And I mean, sometimes on set and it was, you know, that kind of thing rocks accrue, you know, if there's tension and you guys are the center of attention, if there is tension in that relationship, everyone knows it and it affects.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, yeah, I think, you know, the impulse was good, we should try and get along if we can. But just the idea has always struck me as so funny. The idea that we would go to couples therapy as fictional people, but we never did. The other one was one time you figured out like an off screen line and it was too late to ask me because I'd already done my adr and it was in squeeze.

[Gillian Anderson]

It was in squeeze. It was in Squeeze. Season one.

[Chris Carter]

Season one. And Mulder finds Scully's Cross.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yep.

[Chris Carter]

And there's an insert of the cross. So I'm not on camera. And you. You in. Your voice recorded a. Damn it. You can give it to me now. Let's see how.

[Gillian Anderson]

Damn it.

[Chris Carter]

It's very close, you see, so. And I don't remember. How did I figure it out? Because I said I saw it and I never said that or I don't.

[Gillian Anderson]

Remember how you figured it out, but I remember your reaction, which was not good.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, I was really pissed off. And you were. I remember you being bemused. Not amused, but bemused. How could he be so pissed off?

[Gillian Anderson]

Right.

[Chris Carter]

And I think I just had this sense of like. Yeah, authenticity.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, sure, I understand.

[Chris Carter]

However I reacted, I mean, I'm sure it was. It was more than was. Was necessary. But it is funny to think back on that because now I would say, yeah, you just go. Say it.

[Gillian Anderson]

Just.

[Chris Carter]

Just say it, you know, like, I'm. I'm somewhere else.

[Gillian Anderson]

I'm. I'm wrapped, damn it all you want.

[Chris Carter]

And then the widows and orphans, of course.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, right. That's. I don't want to talk about that. That's.

[Chris Carter]

I'll just say it quickly because it's charming.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

It's not. It's nice.

[Gillian Anderson]

I'm glad you find it charming now. You find it charming.

[Chris Carter]

Well, no, it was just this revelation, because the way I'll tell the story, the way it goes for me, is I'm reading your dialogue for 20 years, on and off.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And there's always ellipses. Dash, dash, dash. And in my mind, when I read a script like that, especially when it trails off at whatever in the middle of. I'm thinking there's a thought that's not being expressed. And I'm thinking, well, what is the thought that's not. And I'm always trying to fill it in, like, what's Mulder's thought that's not being expressed that he's cut himself off? And when we were doing the reboot, I called you with a question, and I think I said, what is Mulder's. You know, clearly, he's cutting himself off. What's the thought? And you said, oh, that's just. No widows or orphans. I was like, what. What is that?

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, that's crazy. So people don't speak in complete sentences.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. No, no.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

These things made sense.

[Gillian Anderson]

No, it's like. And that's why I put ellipses and dashes.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. Well, just to finish that story, for those of you who don't know what a widow and orphan is, and I'm. You know, I've been around literature my whole life. I didn't know what it was. It's. When there's. In your chunks of dialogue, you wanted it to look symmetrical, and so you would make sure that each of your lines added up. Up.

[Gillian Anderson]

It's. You know, it. For me, it was an exercise because I always think if you can say it in four lines, you can.

[Chris Carter]

You can.

[Gillian Anderson]

You can. Exactly. Instead of four and a half, it's going to be better and it's going to be add to the.

[Chris Carter]

I buy that. I buy that. But it was a shock when I realized, oh, my God, I've been trying to. But. But good, because I. I feel like. Good that I had to question that.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yep.

[Chris Carter]

I didn't need to know the answer. The answer doesn't help me. Yeah. But Also, it goes with my kind of philosophy that self imposed limitations which you're giving yourself, that it has to look a certain way, are actually ways to get at deeper meaning and freedom. You know, that you're forcing yourself like you were with your pottery. You're forcing yourself into some kind of a shape.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And you're filling that shape.

[Gillian Anderson]

I'll read Quentin Tarantino's script, somebody I admire. And it's the opposite. You know, it's just flowing and different strokes. It's different strokes. So, yeah.

[Chris Carter]

I wanted to get to this. This idea that I had when I was swimming this morning.

[Gillian Anderson]

Okay.

[Chris Carter]

And I've never thought this before, and I've been living with this character for a long time. This is what I came out of the pool with. And I had to go write it down dripping wet because I knew I would lose it.

[Gillian Anderson]

With your Sharpie? Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

Let me preface this by saying, as I gave thanks to you for kind of giving me a structural education in storytelling, I was coming to storytelling in a completely psychological sense. Freud being the first literary critic. Not the first one, but like, you know, Freud's a literary. It's Oedipus complex, electric. You know, all his syndromes and perceptions about the human brain come from literature. So as I was taught, like, psychology is literary criticism. So that's how I approached acting, was like, how do I psychologically fill this thing? And I think we complemented each other well in that way. Because you gave. You had almost a. I don't want to. It's wrong for me to say pre psychological, but a mythic sensibility more than a psychological sensibility. Is that fair to say?

[Gillian Anderson]

Maybe. Here's. For me, the chemistry was that I was writing a smart character, two smart characters, and you were both smart people, and you're one of the smartest people I know. So it was a dream. Dream come true.

[Chris Carter]

Okay, you didn't answer the question. That's fine. What's the.

[Gillian Anderson]

Maybe I didn't understand the question.

[Chris Carter]

No, it's a compliment. I'm just dodging the compliment. That's my problem. But here's what.

[Gillian Anderson]

You're cute too, but.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, that was the other fail I came. Chris wanted me to get this part hurt. Yeah, right. So I had to test for it, though. I had to convince the suits that I was the guy. And there was a line in the pilot, in the description where you. You described Mulder as like more MTV DJ than like FBI. So I was like, oh, he's a bit irreverent, whatever. So I came to the test wearing a pig tie. I. Some reason I had a tie with these pigs on it. And I just remember your face when you saw. Because. Because you know, you're testing for a role. The executives are not. Not imaginative. You should come in and look as much like that role as you can. And no FBI agent is going to be wearing a pig tie.

[Gillian Anderson]

I don't. Did you ever see what Jillian gave me? She gave me the sheets from those casting. The Randy Stone casting sessions where I had made my notes next to the actors.

[Chris Carter]

You know what I thought about Duchovny Pigtie. Fuck him.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yes. I said. It was written simply. Yes. So I knew you were Mulder. And you. And I actually. I don't know if you remember this, but we left the casting session. I actually talked to you outside. And I said, you're good. I want to take you to the network. And I want you. I said the stupidest thing. I said, I want you to start thinking like an FBI age.

[Chris Carter]

I remember that.

[Gillian Anderson]

I remember that because maybe it was.

[Chris Carter]

I was like, maybe it was. Show him.

[Gillian Anderson]

Maybe it was the pig ties.

[Chris Carter]

Later, I'll show him.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, right.

[Chris Carter]

Try to tell me to act like I'm not gonna.

[Gillian Anderson]

That's the last thing I'm gonna do, you know?

[Chris Carter]

How did she get a hold of those sheets? Jillian?

[Gillian Anderson]

I don't know how she. But her. Next to her name. It says test.

[Chris Carter]

Right. She'd go and test for us.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. Yes.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

But you have. I. We're jumping around here. Which is maybe how it goes.

[Chris Carter]

But it goes.

[Gillian Anderson]

Before I forget, you've got to tell that story about the triathlon.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, well, that's. It's. It's in my.

[Gillian Anderson]

Is it in your notes?

[Chris Carter]

In my list of stupid questions. I have these questions, and I have these stupid questions, which is my new. My new form. Stupid questions. There's a lot more stupid questions than There are questions that I think I.

[Gillian Anderson]

Told you and I'd be sure to give you stupid answers.

[Chris Carter]

Stupid answers. So here's what I came away with psychologically. And it's a little embarrassing to think that I've just thought of this 30 years after I started playing the part. I'm reassessing it. Mulder is traumatized by his sister's disappearance.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yep.

[Chris Carter]

And trauma is a word we use now. But we might not have said that back then. We could say something like PTSD now. He failed to protect her. That's his trauma.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

He's failed. But now he's returning to the scene week after week and putting Another young woman in jeopardy and sometimes failing, almost failing to protect her.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

As if he's trying to heal himself by protecting Scully in the way he couldn't protect his sister, yet he's also re. Injuring himself by putting her in danger and sometimes even having to be saved by Scully, saved by this sister. Proxy. And I never thought of it that way.

[Gillian Anderson]

I never thought of it that way either.

[Chris Carter]

What do you think of that?

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, I guess you could make a case for that.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

I don't know.

[Chris Carter]

I don't want to end on that. What I wanted to say was like, in terms of failure. I remember. And I. And this, this is another point of gratitude, the other kind of impetus for this podcast. It came out of my experience, my initial experience putting out House of D, where this, this critic gave me an F. House of D gets an F. And then I woke up the next morning and I was like, oh, cool. You know, I'm a lot. But it hurt. Reception of it hurt. And I remember talking to you. Do you. You're nodding.

[Gillian Anderson]

I remember. Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

What did you say?

[Gillian Anderson]

I said, no one's thinking that but you.

[Chris Carter]

You said that. But you also said, I want to hear your big boy voice. Because I was so, I was so. It was like a gut punch. I think I was walking around for like a month.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

Kind of talking like this. You know, I was like, I just couldn't, I wasn't breathing. I was like, I was in a shell. I was in a protective, non deep breathing shell.

[Gillian Anderson]

That's a, that's a Bill Carter instruction. That's.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, is it your dad?

[Gillian Anderson]

Well, he wouldn't have said that exactly. But it was, it was like. Yeah. You know. Right. You know.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. But I mean, Buck up. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I'm not saying that to, to imply that you are callous or, you know, a 50s dad.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

But it was helpful to me.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And I think, I think we relate, we can relate to that kind of turtling up.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And there's a lot of shame involved in that, especially if you're coming off of a massive success. And, you know, we can, we can look at, at certain things that you've done if you want to consider them failures or you want to consider them something else if you want to talk about those things for a minute. But it could be instructive to people to hear your process of telling yourself that in a way.

[Gillian Anderson]

Okay, so I have two things that I want to talk about the after, but I also want to talk about the coming back with season 10 or 11 on the X Files. I thought, why do I want to come back? What. What story do I have to tell? What.

[Chris Carter]

Right.

[Gillian Anderson]

I don't want to just come back and do a victory lap. I have something to say.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

And I did a. I did a four part arc through two seasons to say all the things that I wanted to say. And the first story is a prelude to my point that I wanted to make. And the first story was called by the New York Times critic James Ponawazik. I think his name, he called it a dud.

[Chris Carter]

And it's a brilliant critical term. Very instructive.

[Gillian Anderson]

Exactly. And then his. It was the. The review was done as a conversation with another critic. Name. I think his name is Mike Hale. Mike, I think. Anyway. And he said, I watched his pilot for Amazon and it was terrible. Terrible. Another good critic word. And that was a painful review in the New York Times. Painful review to read. And particularly because the episode that he was referring to as a dud was the episode that led us to the ending of the following season. And the big point which I was delivering, it was all a plan. It was all veiled and complicated and get to the end. And no one got the ending. And I've already talked to you about this, that I laid it out there, but no one got the ending. It's a big. It's a huge ending.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

But I. Scully reveals that she's pregnant. And it was. You know, I had a lot of haters for that. Scully didn't have agency. Scully. You know, it was a woman. You know, women are only good as mothers and.

[Chris Carter]

Right.

[Gillian Anderson]

Anyway, I had a big idea and I put it right there front and center for people to make the connection that no one, literally no one made. And you know what it is because I told you, you were the only one I told.

[Chris Carter]

I haven't told a son he's taken an alien embryo out. So there's now an alien embryo on the table. I knew it would come to this. I was hoping it wouldn't, but I knew it would. Thank you for bringing him back. I haven't seen him in a while. You look good. Hate looking good. Okay, here's. It's kind of a lightning round, I guess, but that's gross. I just call them stupid questions. You don't have to answer them. What is the difference between believing and wanting to believe?

[Gillian Anderson]

Believing is a certainty. Wanting to believe is a doubter's line that a person wants to believe. Show me the reason to believe is what the line means.

[Chris Carter]

It also says to me that we have a need to believe.

[Gillian Anderson]

Absolutely.

[Chris Carter]

We have a desire.

[Gillian Anderson]

I mean. Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. That's a human desire. What's the difference between surfing and writing, writing and directing, writing and showrunning, show running and art, pottery and ceramics?

[Gillian Anderson]

It's all interconnected. Okay.

[Chris Carter]

You said something recently. Me? You said love is the only thing that matters.

[Gillian Anderson]

It is.

[Chris Carter]

How is Men in Their Hair coming along?

[Gillian Anderson]

You want to tell why you asked that question? No, you don't. I once told David long, long ago, 30 years ago, that my first novel was going to be called Men in Their Hair.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. You have been prophetic in calling the. In seeing where society was headed to. What do you attribute that to? Your twin muses of science and fiction? Science fiction.

[Gillian Anderson]

Science fiction. Yeah. Kind of. That.

[Chris Carter]

I think you're a pattern. You're a guy that looks for patterns.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. And it's just like.

[Chris Carter]

You see what's going.

[Gillian Anderson]

Doing the X Files was a perfect opportunity for me to talk about the world and my point of view in the world. Or I should say my. My competing points of view, which are science and faith.

[Chris Carter]

Why do you walk home along the train tracks?

[Gillian Anderson]

My wife told David a story. We were sitting at lunch, I think, and she told him that I. I always have adventures. And. Which is true. I just. I kind of put myself out there. I had been walking home a great. I was supposed to take an Uber. And I decided, no, I'll walk a little bit. And then I thought, I'll take the bus. No, I'll keep walking a little bit. Oh, I'll walk up by the train tracks. And I go walk on the train tracks. And I'm walking in the middle of the train tracks on the railroad ties. And I'm thinking, probably not a great idea to walk on the. But I'll walk on the side of the. The on of tracks, on the ties. And I'm walking along, lost in my thoughts, and whoosh. Without a sound. This train goes by me at whatever, 65 miles an hour. I don't know it. I mean, it was less than a yard away from me, and it was terrifying. But one of the most exhilarating moments of my life, I think.

[Chris Carter]

I think you got a bit of Huck Finn in you. That's what I think. I think you're out there throwing rocks.

[Gillian Anderson]

I'll take it. I'll take it.

[Chris Carter]

Looking for adventures. And I think that's curiosity.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. And see, that's what producing is. You get the kids to paint the fence.

[Chris Carter]

But Huck didn't Pay him. You had to pay him. How do you explain that? We had the exact same time at the Malibu Triathlon.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, yeah. David and I. I did a triathlon. And we.

[Chris Carter]

Not together.

[Gillian Anderson]

No, we didn't. Yeah, right. You went out.

[Chris Carter]

I was in the celebrity.

[Gillian Anderson]

You were in the celebrity wing, whatever wave, and I was in the age group wave. And so we did it. And we don't know our times because they're not published. And he calls me up the next day. You call me up the next day and say, you're not going to believe this, but we have the exact same times down to the second.

[Chris Carter]

To the hundredth of the second.

[Gillian Anderson]

To the hundredths of a second.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[Gillian Anderson]

And.

[Chris Carter]

And we never saw each other during the race. We fell into pace with one another.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

How do you explain that, Mr. Carter?

[Gillian Anderson]

Kismet.

[Chris Carter]

But do you remember what you said?

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, yeah. You.

[Chris Carter]

You.

[Gillian Anderson]

You said, so we tied. And I said, no, I won. I'm older.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, well, that. Wait, what was that? Okay. When I was a kid, I was obsessed with dinosaurs. The Titanic, Leopold and Loeb. Mel Stottlemeier. Baseball. Walt Frazier, basketball. Charlie Manson. So I was obsessed with dinosaurs, tragedies, sports.

[Gillian Anderson]

Sports, yeah.

[Chris Carter]

Is that similar to you? What were you obsessed with when you were a kid?

[Gillian Anderson]

Sports, for sure. I was a baseball fanatic. Doesn't go far in enough. Thus the name Scully, after Vin Scully. Yes. Sandy Koufax was the left hand pitcher. I was. But dinosaurs. Yeah, I had dinosaurs as a kid. But I have to say, I think tropical fish was where I planted my feet.

[Chris Carter]

Did you have an aquarium?

[Gillian Anderson]

I couldn't believe. I used to go to Tiki's Tropical Fish on Alondra Boulevard and it was like getting new fish. It was like. It was. I don't know, it was like going to the Caribbean. And, you know.

[Chris Carter]

Well, also, knowing how you grew up, it was kind of a luxury item for you as well, right? Because it wasn't like your family had a bunch of money to put into tropical fish.

[Gillian Anderson]

No, I mean, it was, you know.

[Chris Carter]

You had to do your research.

[Gillian Anderson]

It was a kind of extravagant obsession.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, these are.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, yeah. I want to plug this, because this person, Sweet Laurel, is. I have a little building in Santa Monica and it's got a bakery in it. And this woman not only does amazing work, she does it with all of her heart. And sweet Laurel, all her stuff is in stores far and wide. She does cake mixes.

[Chris Carter]

And this. This is a nice way to end, too, because, you know, most. Wait, most people will be coming on this to plug a movie or a book and you're plugging somebody else's work, which I love.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, I do need to make one plug here. This is maybe the most important plug.

[Chris Carter]

Sweet Laurel is the. The mix and the muffins favored by.

[Gillian Anderson]

Alien babies everywhere we are. I just got the go ahead yesterday to do a director's cut of I Want to Believe the second movie. And I can't tell you how excited I'm about this, because when we made.

[Chris Carter]

Shit for that movie, right.

[Gillian Anderson]

Oh, big time. I made it too scary, basically. And I was told so by the brass at Fox, and they wanted a PG13 movie. So we cut it back. Act to be a PG13 movie. And I. We thought, okay, we've satisfied their demands. The. The critics, the people who rate the movies said, no, it's not a PG13 yet. You've got to cut it back even farther. I can tell you that. You can do more on network television. They're more permissive than they are. The sensors are for the movies as well now. Yeah. And so now I have a chance to go back and make the scary movie that I always intended.

[Chris Carter]

Fantastic.

[Gillian Anderson]

I'm so seeing that it's not just doing a director's cut to do a director's cut, it's really kind of bringing to life something that for me, was on the page and never got to the screen.

[Chris Carter]

That's awesome. I did not know that. And it made me think early on, I said, John Bartley, poet on a prophecy, which is something we used to sing to the Give It Away, Give.

[Gillian Anderson]

It Away, Give It Away by the.

[Chris Carter]

Red Hot Chili Peppers. And it just reminded me the kind of what you're saying you can and can't do in terms of your movie. I've heard you say, and I think it's true that the reason that the X Files was so scary in the beginning was because we couldn't afford to show the scary things. It had to be Doc. Doc. He was from New Zealand.

[Gillian Anderson]

That is a great story.

[Chris Carter]

And again, it's instructive, which we sometimes go for on this show, which is, you know, again, in limitations.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

You know, you don't need. If you have a small budget, you have to figure your way around the scare. And that's that explained or that drove the X Files when it first aired was so dark compared to any other show on television. And I'm talking about literally.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And that became its trademark and that became the art of it.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And that's an example where you're Given a. A weak hand.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

A failing hand.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And you turn it into a winner.

[Gillian Anderson]

Well, I hope you invite me back because we could talk about the X files for another 45, 90 minutes. Whatever.

[Chris Carter]

I'm done. I'm done. I just want to eat these muffins. Are they muffins?

[Gillian Anderson]

They are muffins.

[Chris Carter]

All right. Thank you, Chris. And yeah, we should. We do come back.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

In fact, maybe we'll just have. We'll get Jillian in here, we'll do a round.

[Gillian Anderson]

That'd be great. I'd love that.

[Chris Carter]

And we'll all talk about what we don't remember. It's been about a week since Chris Carter and I sat down and I haven't. I haven't jotted down any post thoughts. I think my brain was emptied. But having had about a week, I've been thinking about it. I didn't know that was the first time he ever did a podcast. Shocking in this podcast infested world, but he's not a. He's never been a guy to call public attention to himself. He's never had that hunger. I'm sure like anyone, he has a desire to be recognized or appreciated, but never that sense in wanting to be out in front of. And it made me think about the evolution of our friendship and our relationship because it is one of the major relationships of my life. As you know, when I quit the show, I was itching to do other things creatively. I wanted to leave home in a way, and I think I hurt him by doing that. And I regret that. I don't regret leaving as much as I regret hurting people that I left. And what I'm proud of for both of us, I think in this is that we have matured into peers and we are friends and equals now. Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like my thoughts on conversations with guests including Alec Baldwin and Rob Lowe. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com Failbetter is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

[Megan]

Hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I am so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Hear new episodes each week ad free on Amazon Music. You can also ask Alexa Alexa, play Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan on Amazon Music and she will.

[David Duchovny]

Hi, I'm Emily Deschanel.

[Megan]

And I'm Carla Gallo and we're here.

[David Duchovny]

To bring you Boneheads the official Bones Rewatch podcast.

[Megan]

That's right, we're watching all the episodes of Bones, starting with episode one and we are the right people to do it.

[David Duchovny]

I play Dr. Temperance Bradnen and I met Carla 16 years ago on set. I played Daisy Wick. Tune in every Wednesday to hear all our behind the scenes stories, conversations with cast and crew, and our favorite moments.

[Megan]

Boneheads from Lemonada Media is out wherever you get your podcasts.