← Fail Better with David Duchovny
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- [00:01]
Dylan Mulvaney
Hi, is this an okay time? It's your girl, Dylan Mulvaney, and I am inviting you to my weekly cocktail party and my brand new podcast, the Dylan Hour, brought to you by Lemonada Media. Life is stressful and there is so much darkness in the world. I think we could all use a little bit of trans joy. So join me every week as I interview some of my favorite A list, celebrity friends and gurus, and of course the dolls. While we sip and split, spill the scalding hot tea. So put your worries aside and join me at the Dylan Hour. You can listen on Apple, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Love ya.
- [00:36]
Sarah
The first 100 days of a new presidential administration have the potential to be the most impactful. Campaign promises and concepts of plans begin to take shape and become reality. I'm Sarah. And I'm Beth. Together we host Pantsu Politics, a podcast where we take a different approach to the news. Join us for this different approach where we ask questions, resist hot takes and have fun no matter what the world serves up. We'll get you through the first 100 days and beyond of the new Trump administration. Stay informed without all the anxiety. Join us for new episodes every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcast.
- [01:08]
Chris Evert
Lemonada.
- [01:18]
David Duchovny
I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better. A show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Chris Everett is a former professional tennis player who is known for her mental toughness and record breaking talent. Considered one of the most consistent players in the history of Tennis, Chris won 157 singles titles and dominated women's tennis during the 1970s and 80s. During her prime, Chris achieved an incredible feat by winning at least one title in each of the four Grand Slam tournaments for 13 consecutive years. But beyond her impeccable record, she played a crucial role in building the Women's Tennis association, the WTA and globalizing women's tennis, which helped to elevate the sport to new levels of professionalism and equality. We chat about everything from growing up in a tennis oriented family to her iconic rivalry with Martina Navratilova. Plus how she overcame cancer twice. Chris opens up about what it was like leaving behind such a storied career and what she's been up to since retiring from the sport she helped catapult into the spotlight. Here's that conversation.
- [02:33]
Chris Evert
Ah, there he is.
- [02:36]
David Duchovny
I just need my glasses. Oh, here. Just one? Yeah, there we go. Can't see anything.
- [02:44]
Chris Evert
I'm Chris Evert.
- [02:46]
David Duchovny
Good morning. Hi Chris.
- [02:47]
Chris Evert
Hi. How are you?
- [02:49]
David Duchovny
It's. It's such a. Such A lame entrance. Hold on a second now. I'm all tangled up. This just gets better.
- [02:58]
Chris Evert
God. Do you know.
- [02:59]
David Duchovny
Holy moly.
- [02:59]
Chris Evert
Jesus.
- [03:00]
David Duchovny
Here we go. I'm sure you're saying something funny.
- [03:05]
Chris Evert
I said, do you know who you're interviewing?
- [03:09]
David Duchovny
Well, you know, you look. You look extremely put together. You got it. No, you're. You're fine. Or else you got somebody young helping you. What is it? I mean, you look like you've got all the technology.
- [03:19]
Chris Evert
Oh, I have. No, I have my assistant here. I have my son here. Right. Alex. Put your head. Big fan. He just wants to put his head in. Right? Alex, My son, Alex.
- [03:28]
David Duchovny
How are you? Nice to meet you.
- [03:29]
Chris Evert
How's it going?
- [03:30]
David Duchovny
Yeah, I'm good, thank you.
- [03:32]
Chris Evert
Nice to meet you. You're the man. Yeah. You're the man.
- [03:35]
David Duchovny
Thank you. I'm the man. All right. That's a. It's my favorite start to any conversation I've had so far. Thanks for doing this.
- [03:44]
Chris Evert
Thank you. Sorry it took so long.
- [03:47]
David Duchovny
Yeah. No, no, that's okay.
- [03:48]
Chris Evert
Okay.
- [03:48]
David Duchovny
That's okay.
- [03:50]
Chris Evert
Failure.
- [03:52]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Well, it's one of the. I've only talked to a couple athletes, you know, on this podcast, and what's interesting to me is especially tennis, because, you know, I mean, the cliche that Federer has said, you know, I. I won 53% of my points or whatever it is. 54. You know, the. Right. The. The best. The best player of all time. One loses 46% of the time. Now, that's obviously not the matches. That's the points. But how. I mean, obviously, you know, your dad coached you from the beginning. There was a lot of, like, mental preparation, but just as. As a person in that body, who is. Who is competing at this level and courting the notion of failure at this level and undergoing, you know, constant failure within the match. What is that athletic heart, like? Sally Jenkins likes to ask, you know, what. What is. It's heart and head, I'd imagine, but I'll let you speak on that.
- [04:49]
Chris Evert
Well, I mean, there's. There's. When I started playing tennis when I was six years old, so there's like, the whole junior tennis component, and then there's the professional component. And when you mentioned. I mean, we're like warriors out there, one against one. And I think, David, I think one thing that people forget is that men have been warriors for centuries and women have not. Women have been nurturers, and women have been, you know, mothers and taking care of the house, the home, and the peacemakers, and it's only been, you Know, really in the last, what, 50 to 100 years, that. That women's sports has really taken on a life of its own and.
- [05:30]
David Duchovny
Sure.
- [05:30]
Chris Evert
And so, you know, I think our nature basically is one of nurturing, and for us to get out there, I think it. It really kind of was a little confusing in the beginning. You know, it's like, I want to beat this person's brains, and at the same time, you know, I want to be nice to them. I want to be cordial. I don't want to have any, you know, enemies or anything. I don't want to be mean, but I want to just kill her out there.
- [06:00]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Did you. Did you have to play games with yourself? Like, did you have to convince yourself that you didn't like that person across the net or stuff like that ever?
- [06:09]
Chris Evert
I actually played better against people either that I didn't like or that I didn't know or that I didn't have any emotion for. As soon as I had to play a girlfriend of mine or my sister Jeannie, who is. I played her three times professionally, and it was the worst experience ever. You know, I just hated. I didn't even want to look at her because she was my younger sister, and I didn't. I felt so bad for her on the one hand. And on the other hand, there's no way I was gonna lose to her, you know? Cause I'm the older sibling.
- [06:47]
David Duchovny
So you know her game, you know her weaknesses better than anybody, I'm sure, having grown up together. But did your sister ever speak to you about the other side of that? I mean, what you're talking about, in many ways, is almost not a fear of winning, but a discomfort with dominating or winning within the match that you have to get over as a woman. But also, I'd like to hear how you dealt with the loss or if your sister mentioned what it was like to lose to you. But also, you went through your share of game losses as well, and how from the juniors on, how you just grew, how you transformed yourself into somebody that was resilient within the match and obviously in life as well.
- [07:37]
Chris Evert
Well, in answer to your question about my sister, you don't want to hurt the people you love. And so that's why I felt horrible beating her. But I have to say, on the other side of the coin, there's a match in doubles where Martina Navratilova and I lost to my sister and Olga Morozova. And it was an upset, and we lost in doubles. And I, the very next nice person that I Am didn't talk to her for three days.
- [08:12]
David Duchovny
Really?
- [08:14]
Chris Evert
Yeah.
- [08:15]
David Duchovny
That reminds me of something else that you've mentioned. The three days seems to be important because when I was reading about your career and the interviews that you've done around it, you did lose to. Is it Virginia Wade at Wimbledon. And you said that you took three days, again, very Christlike, for you to go away for three days. And then. So can you tell me what's going on in that three days? I mean, is there a process or are you just like.
- [08:43]
Chris Evert
Well, the three days with Virginia Wade was. I lost her at Wimbledon. And I was devastated because I maybe was like 10 to 1, head to head with her. Like, I owned. We could say in tennis, you own someone when you beat them a lot. And the crowd got into my head because she's British, and shame on me because the crowd got into my head and I just got frustrated. But those three days, I stayed in my hotel room and I ate and I ordered room service, and I probably gained about five pounds, and I was in my robe for three days. I think that with all the mental health talk these days, yeah, you know, I was depressed.
- [09:30]
David Duchovny
So nobody. Was anybody checking on you? Was anybody calling and say, hey, Chris, you know, actually, we're leaving the hotel tomorrow?
- [09:36]
Chris Evert
No, no, I. I didn't. I mean, I had. Girl, I had a few friends, players that. That I would talk, you know, that I talked to and. And commiserated with. But, you know, we just. No, no, that was me. And you know what? I took my losses in the answer to your question. I took them pretty hard. And I think that I. For. I'm the kind of person that I hated to lose more than I love to win. And some people go out there and they're happy and they just go out there to win.
- [10:07]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [10:07]
Chris Evert
And I certainly go out there to win, but I went. But I hated to lose. And, you know, that probably was an insecurity, you know, defect in my personality that if I was not that confident of a person that I could hold my head up high and. But, you know, I think that I was thrown into competition at such a young age that, you know, I realized you were either a winner or a loser every day. Every day you played a match because it would make worldwide press and, you know, it would be, Chris Evert won a tournament or Chris Evert lost or. And, you know, I. I took that personally. And it's not normal. I mean, for a 16, 17, 18, for a teenager to be. To lose and then to be on the front of the sports page.
- [11:01]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [11:02]
Chris Evert
Not fun. No fun.
- [11:04]
David Duchovny
You don't remember that as a kid? Do you remember feeling that kind of anxiety about losing as well? Or was it only when it became kind of writ large in a tabloid sense?
- [11:14]
Chris Evert
No, I remember I had to play like my best friend. I was like, I had to beat her, you know. Yeah, no, I, I think that I, I probably started taking my losses a little too intense when. Now, you know what? I probably, I might have been that way all. Always. I might have been that way always.
- [11:38]
David Duchovny
Yeah, it's, it's hard to unpack these kinds of characteristics because, you know, we'd have to go back so far to, to see ourselves as innocents before this. It's not possible. We can't, we can't really get there.
- [11:52]
Chris Evert
I'm going to interrupt because in the beginning when I was like 7, 8, 9, 10, I was, I was different because I remember coming home one day and I said to my dad, he said, how'd you do? And I said, dad, I played great. I played. My forehand worked, my backhand worked, I served well. No double faults. I really played great. And he says, well, what was the score? And I said I lost love and love. And it was a bigger older girl. But I was right very, I was happy at that point. But I think once the spotlight's on you, you know, I started winning 10 and under tournaments, nationals, and you know, people are, you know, I'm getting a little bit more press. I think when the pressure is on you. I think that's when it, it started.
- [12:43]
David Duchovny
Yeah, well, you'd said at some point that, you know, tennis gave you self esteem. So I imagine if you're out there with your self esteem on the line. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a, it's a lot of anxiety to, to be losing with. And I think a lot of athletes, you know, a lot of athletes who were great young and you know, most of the great athletes were great young. It's to me like you look at, at Michael Jordan's hall of Fame induction speech where he's going after this high school kid that, you know, that beat him out for a spot. You know, so there's, there's this fire and, and I think it's around self esteem and identity and all those things. So there's no, there's no, it's no surprise to me that you would have that. I mean, and it would be fear and it's fuel, you know, it's this, it's this real kind of odd fuel that we Instill our kids with, in a way, or our athletes with, of like, you know, you're always looking for the motivation to win. You're always, well, for you, the motivation not to. Not to lose as well.
- [13:45]
Chris Evert
I think it's a lot to put on a young kid. And I think also when you start winning at a young age and people come up and pat you on the back and just give you all kinds of compliments and tell you how great you are, and I think that's not healthy for your development as a human being.
- [14:06]
David Duchovny
But you were like the crash test dummy for all these kinds of vectors that we're seeing now that we take for granted. So, I mean, you could probably help me list them. I'm going to miss a couple. But, like, you're. You're the first real. First teenage phenomenon tennis player, first female teenage phenomenon, and that. That continues to this day. We're always looking for, you know, a young female champion. You're. You were also the first kind of tabloid athlete, at least in tennis. I think, you know, that all of a sudden the tabloids started covering you as a. As a kid as well. And then also adding on to that, you became like this American symbol, you know, when. When it was you against Martina, when they kind of inflated this rivalry between, you know, America and an Eastern European country, and you got saddled with so many fucking images that had nothing to do with you. And yet we deal with all these things now. We take them for granted, but it's instructive to remember that you didn't have, like, you couldn't look at Chris Everett and say, how did Chris Everett do it? How did she get through this? So how did you get through it? And were you aware of, you know, he said, they don't really know me. Yeah, but they're writing these things as if they know you.
- [15:31]
Chris Evert
Yeah. Pretty soon you have an image, and you are this image. You're in a little bubble, and you feel responsible to act within that image. So in other words, like, I also was not controversial. I was always a good sport. You know, I was. There are certain things that, because of the image, I didn't have the freedom to try to go out and take chances and figure out who I really was. You're absolutely right.
- [16:04]
David Duchovny
As a player or as a. As a person?
- [16:06]
Chris Evert
As a person. As a person. Look, I think it's, you know, I think it's just a lot easier for somebody to achieve fame and recognition and attention when, like, they're in their 20s. I mean, then when they're you know, 14, 15, you're 10, 11, 12 years old. My heavens, it's. You kind of have a better sense of yourself, and you're. You already have your. Your personality and you already have your beliefs, and you don't. When you're young, you don't. That's when you form them. But if you're in a little box because you're afraid to speak out and have people talk about you or whatever, I mean, I was shy anyway, so that was a bad. So that was another strike against me, you know, I just wasn't a daring, brave person, you know, And I think a lot of it's. A lot of it is your family, too. I mean, I didn't have parents. I had parents that played it safe, and I had parents who were very. I mean, they were fearful Catholics, you know, we were fearful Catholics. And if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it. And I mean, that's the environment that I grew in. So all of that combined, you know, I definitely lived. Lived in. In a bubble. I mean, there's no doubt about it in my image. But it wasn't. It was, you know, it. It was. It was okay. It was okay. I mean, I really didn't suffer any. You know, I didn't have mental breakdowns or anything.
- [17:41]
David Duchovny
Well, I mean, what, what you're describing is what people call brands now. But again, you didn't have the vocabulary to even understand that you were being branded or that you had a brand. It just. It just felt like I'm just going out there trying to do what I'm going to do, and they're saying these things, but one of the things, like reading about you and how your dad coached you to not show emotion on the court. I'd like to, because obviously when I talk to think about athletes and I think of myself as an athlete, by the way, that's a dirty secret. Thank you for not laughing.
- [18:18]
Chris Evert
No. You look very athletic.
- [18:22]
David Duchovny
I'm a decent tennis player. So I always think, like, Raging Bull, you know, like, we, we. We raise these people to be gladiators. And tennis and boxing, I think, are very similar in that way. And yet, you know, the kind of competitiveness and the fire that they need to succeed in the ring or on the court. We don't, we don't want to see that when they come off the court. You know, we want them to be nice people.
- [18:48]
Chris Evert
Yeah.
- [18:48]
David Duchovny
You know, we want them to be people that don't break any laws, people that don't, you know, Upset us. Yeah. I'm interested to hear about how you learning to mask your emotions on the court, which is something that I think your father was very adamant about, you know, not showing people when you were upset so they would attack you. You know, like I coaching my son, I was always like, don't slump your shoulders. You know, then they know. They know you're beat, you know.
- [19:12]
Chris Evert
Exactly right. I think, again, I was pretty controlled. I controlled because I controlled. I learned to control my emotions so much on the court. And you're absolutely right. My dad said to me, don't get mad, because then your opponent will use it to their advantage, and they'll go, aha, I have her. And that's. He's so right. Because whenever I played, whenever I saw my opponent start to show emotion or get mad, I knew I had them. I knew I had them. You know, mentally, that was my. I was more known for my mental, you know, abilities and toughness rather than the physicalities of being a wonderful physical athlete.
- [19:52]
David Duchovny
Aware of that progress to being that stoic person on the court as a kid, or are you just aware that there was one day, all of a sudden I was like, oh, yeah, I'm in control here. I can control myself.
- [20:06]
Chris Evert
I always had that. I was born that way. I have to say, a lot of people, like, when I look at Martina, I bring her up a lot because I looked at a picture when she was 10 years old, and she was ripped, and she had veins coming out of her arms. She was ripped. And I go, you know, she's just a phenomenon. And I just say, you know, she was born that way. I was born with the ability to, you know, be calm, deal with pressure well, not get frazzled out there. And again, my game was not a big, explosive, serve and volley, exciting game. My game was consistency and placement and patience. So all of that together, being shy and having that type of game and being the way I was mentally, that's the way I was off the court for the public pretty much, until I got older, in my 20s, and I relaxed, and then I started to get funny, and then I kind of let the personality come out because I felt more secure with myself.
- [21:13]
David Duchovny
You mentioned you said you were a Catholic, And I wonder, you know, Catholics are famously familiar with failure, aren't they? It's kind of a. It's a failure, salvation, religion. So I wonder. I wonder how that kind of. If you leaned on that or if that was part of your consciousness growing up and kind of in the way that you dealt with your mortality. And failure around the game in those times, if it informed at all your sense of our place here on this earth as failed people or, you know, if. If that was. If that played into your consciousness at all.
- [21:56]
Chris Evert
I wish I was that deep.
- [22:00]
David Duchovny
No, I think you are, Chris. God damn it. I think in the morning. No, I mean, you're not going to fool me. I'm not going to take that shit.
- [22:08]
Chris Evert
I went to 12 years of Catholic school and we went to mass every morning. And, you know, I just. I mean, the Catholic religion to me was don't do this, don't do that. It was all about the ten Commandments. And I mean, growing up, this is my perception. And it was never about, you know, go out and be happy or, you know, do good works or. I mean, it was all about fear and about, you know, sin. And I think once I went on the tour, I mean, you know, I was exposed to a lot of different things at a very young age on the tour. 15, 16 years old. Okay, I. I don't even know how to. I don't even know how to say this, but anyway, I was. I mean, you can real life say stuff.
- [22:53]
David Duchovny
Don't use names, you know, people from all.
- [22:55]
Chris Evert
Well, I think that. I think I was exposed at 15 or 16 when I would go to tournaments to women. I mean, I was the only teenager on the tour. All of them women. Billie Jean, Rosie Casals, Virginia Wade, and some very open minds and some very different lifestyles that I had. I mean, a lot of the women were gay. When I. When I was a teenager, I joined the tour and I love that I went right into that from the Catholic religion and became good friends with these women and saw, just saw and realized that it's all about love and it's all about being happy. And it should not be about judgment or should be about laws and rules and this and that, that, you know, it was just a very open environment. And to this day, I learned a lot. I learned a lot from the tour at a young age. Because of that.
- [24:19]
David Duchovny
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- [25:48]
Sarah
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- [26:19]
David Duchovny
Of Fail Better is brought to you by booking.com booking yeah, when you use booking.com to find a place to stay in the US you know you'll find exactly what you're looking for. Booking.com has a huge variety of options for where to stay during your travels. From hotels to vacation rentals. You can search for amenities like hot tubs or parking. And in big cities like Chicago or smaller getaways like Cherokee, North Carolina, I'm confident that you'll find the perfect place that fits your specific needs. Booking.com consistently has something for everyone. Some friends of mine were recently going on a trip and they were talking about needing a vacation rental that had an indoor pool and proximity to hiking trails and booking.com delivered. And if they needed an outdoor pool, I know booking.com would have delivered on that too. I think it's important to be able to be so detailed about what you're looking for and actually find it. No matter who you are. Booking.com helps you find the stay that's ridiculously right for you. Find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com booking yeah one thing that I was, when I was thinking about your career, that I don't, I'm not sure that you've ever talked about it. It's interesting to me as a tennis player, about the same age as you that you went through, you dominated a certain type of tennis, and then all of a sudden they started making new rackets and the game changed. And this, Unless you don't play tennis, you don't realize how different. It's like if we decide all of a sudden there's too much dunking in basketball, we're going to raise the rim to 11ft. And now that's the game. And now everybody that grew up playing the game with 10ft is going to really have to make a major adjustment. It's going to be hard to be great. And yet you did it. And I wonder, just take me back to those feelings, like at first, Martina's starting to beat you. Yeah. Your game seems like it's part of the past. Why don't I just quit now? You know, you got Macro and Borg on the other side. They quit. You know, there's a lot going on.
- [28:46]
Chris Evert
Yeah, I hung in there.
- [28:48]
David Duchovny
I think that not only that, but you, you, you thrived.
- [28:52]
Chris Evert
Yeah.
- [28:52]
David Duchovny
Just hang in there.
- [28:53]
Chris Evert
You know, I, I started out on the pro tour ranked in the top four in the world. I mean, basically my first world ranking was I was top four in the world, and I retired a 34 ranked top four in the world. So that's, that's what I, I'm proud of that. And, and I think you're right, I had to make adjustments, but I did lose to Martina 13 times in a row.
- [29:19]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [29:20]
Chris Evert
Being stubborn and not willing to change anything. I just, because I, I, with my game, I beat 98% of the population of the women playing my game, but I didn't make any adjustments with her. I was just praying that she'd have a bad day. She was dominant for two years.
- [29:37]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [29:37]
Chris Evert
And my coach would say, you got to go to the net, you got to develop a bigger serve, you got to take more risks. And I just, I didn't.
- [29:45]
David Duchovny
And that's not your personality, as you.
- [29:47]
Chris Evert
Said, for 13 match. Yeah, but finally I did.
- [29:49]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [29:49]
Chris Evert
For some reason I did. And I played her in Miami and I'd always lose those. By the way, those 13 matches, they were like always three sets. I mean, they were close, but I just, I just couldn't beat her. And so it was the mental part, too. But I played her in Miami and I, I said, you know, Chrissy, you go to the frickin net. Will you just. Just try it. Just go there and see what happens, okay? Because it's not working the other way. So I went to the net, hit to her backhand, approach out, went to the net, she dumped it in the bottom of the net. And I said, all right, I'm going to do it again. Went to the net, off her backhand, and she floated it up. I put away a volley, and I'm like, okay, okay, okay. Why was I so stubborn? Oh. Anyway, I won that match. I won that match in three sets by coming in the net, taking the net away from her, which is her strength, and also daring her to pass me on her backhand side, which was her weak side. She had a great forehand, but her backhand was not that. Yeah, not very strong. Then I beat her two months later at the French Open. And then next year, the next year, I beat her at the French Open again. And so we kind of ended on equal grounds, you know, which is. Which is kind of great. We both won 18 slams. But you gotta change a losing game. You gotta change a losing game, and you just have to be brave. And, you know, you have to think, okay, I might lose a couple matches in the beginning, but this is the right road to take.
- [31:25]
David Duchovny
You know, hearing you say that, it sounds completely logical and almost inescapable, like, well, who wouldn't change if you're losing 13 times a row? But people don't. No, I'm saying to give you the credit that you deserve, and, you know, I'm not badmouthing Macaron Borg, but also, you had the luxury of having a great nemesis as well, which is, I think, what keeps people playing as well. I mean, it's possible that you would have retired much earlier if you hadn't had this person beating the shit out of you and then continuing this great rivalry. Is that fair to say as well?
- [32:02]
Chris Evert
That's fair to say. That's fair to say. I was thinking Martina and I did push each other, and we just wanted to keep playing each other, and we kept improving because we had each other, and we knew that our rivalry was something special and maybe bigger than the both of us individually. You know, it was really in the sense of women's tennis, in the sense of sports. I don't think anybody's ever competed against each other 80 times. You know, we compete against each other 80 times. So, yeah, and we were so different in polar opposites in every single way, shape and form, and it just made for good tv. Also, she had her set of fans, I had my set of fans, and if she wasn't there and I, I was kind of rolling along at number one. Yeah, I don't think I would have been in Tennyson. I mean, 34 was a substantially middle. I mean that was pretty long career. That was 18 year career. Nowadays it's not, it's not because again, it's just so different now with all the teams and, but so that's that.
- [33:04]
David Duchovny
The, the kind of character that you show and, and this is part of like an athlete's heart, I think the character that you show first of all in transforming your game to new equipment, which is crazy when you think about it, and then transforming your game and then coming back from losing 13 times in a row and I don't know if it's you or Jarlitis that gets to own that quote, which is one of my favorite quotes.
- [33:32]
Chris Evert
He does. He does. Yes, he does.
- [33:35]
David Duchovny
What was it exactly? Who was beating him?
- [33:37]
Chris Evert
It's like nobody beats via Geralitis 14 times in a row.
- [33:42]
David Duchovny
It's one of my favorite.
- [33:43]
Chris Evert
Yeah, yeah, that's the quote. I think I said that once about Chris Everett and then I felt like a phony and then I quickly said this year I said that. But it's a great, it's a great quote. Yes.
- [33:56]
David Duchovny
As long as you attribute it, I think it's fine. But, but you know, to have the, the fortitude to go into the failure like that, because it's really, you're just, you're dealing with, with failure in a way that you haven't before because you're an elite athlete. I mean, to lose again. To lose 13 times in a row. Two years, two years, two years of losing to this person.
- [34:17]
Chris Evert
I know.
- [34:17]
David Duchovny
So it's awful. But was it, you know, I mean, you're laughing about it now, but I think you realize, you know, in terms of failure too, that this brought out the best in you. Not. It doesn't bring out any negative attributes except for maybe stubbornness, which is a good thing sometimes. But it's like without those failures, I don't think you would know yourself quite as well as you do right now.
- [34:41]
Chris Evert
Right. And I wouldn't have ended up at the end of my career being the best player that I, that I could be. And yeah, I kept, what I kept thinking about those two years was that I just marveled at, at Martina's athleticism, you know, just her shot making, how quick she was, how strong, her power. And at one, at a point, at some point, I'd been able to stay even with her before then because of my mental attributes, because I would value every point, not make enforced errors, and she would be emotional. And so that's when I realized that you got to step it up physically. You got to go to the gym, you got to start lifting weights, and you've got to get stronger, you've got to put more power on your serve. You've got to come into the net more. And then I went that extra step, and that's when everything evened out in the end, which was good.
- [35:43]
David Duchovny
I mean, one thing that I always, like, want to talk about with tennis folks is, like, choking. You know, this thing we call choking.
- [35:49]
Chris Evert
Exactly.
- [35:50]
David Duchovny
Okay. Yeah. So it seems to Me There are 2 responses to Choking, because I think we all choke at certain points. We get tight, even if we even do, even if we don't lose. We know. I mean, there's been, I think, back on my, you know, playing sports, and I know when I was super tight, and it didn't necessarily reflect in the. In the outcome, you know, but I know I was choking or I was ripe to choke, and I'm like. And then when that happens, it's hard not to go back to that point, especially when the commentators are talking about it. The last time you got tight and you were not really much of a. You didn't choke much, but I'm sure you felt like you were choking from time to time, and I wonder how you dealt.
- [36:33]
Chris Evert
My choking was not hitting in the fence. You know, my choking was being passive. My. My choking was. I wasn't hitting out with. With confidence. And I'll never forget. I was. Okay, first of all, we didn't have role models. I. I mean, none of my coaches ever talked to me about choking. So we. In the 70s, we had to figure this everything out ourselves. Yeah, everything. We didn't have coaches. Okay. Martina and I used to practice with each other before the final of a Grand Slam when we played each other. So. So what I'm trying to say is, is that I remember being at Wimbledon, and I was in a. In the finals, and I was pushing. I just didn't want to miss, so I kind of wasn't hitting. I was guiding. I wouldn't push. I was guiding the ball. Okay.
- [37:19]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [37:19]
Chris Evert
And I said to myself, I had a moment. I go, hit the fricking ball. Accelerate your racket with spin. Okay? Accelerate and with spin, because then it'll stay in. So I started to almost whip the shots, you know, but accelerate. And I figured it Out. I mean, that's what I needed to do to get to my normal game. You know, not even a great game, but just a normal game because I was so far back and pushing the ball. So you're. I always talk to the kids about. About pressure because that's the number one question I get. Oh, what do I do? I'm so tired, I can't hit a ball. I was upset in 4:1, and I just lost. I couldn't. And I said, okay, the first thing you need to do is do a body scan of yourself. What. How are your feet? Let's start from the bottom. Like a tree. Tree trunk, tree. The. The roots of a tree. Are you. Are you moving well? Do you stop moving when you're nervous? What happens when you get nervous? Okay, so I go. Start with your feet. Now go up. Hands. Are you making too many errors and hitting too big of a shot, or are you too timid and just, you know, again, just not hitting the ball at all? What about your serve? When you get nervous, do you just double fall? Do you miss first serves? Okay, so I always have an answer for something. Okay? So if your feet. If you're. If you're slow on your feet, which is 80 of the people that are tight.
- [38:47]
David Duchovny
It's always the feet. It's always.
- [38:48]
Chris Evert
It's always the feet. Jump up and down. Just. Just get on your toes. Jump up and down. Get ready, return to serve. Jump up and down. You know, just. Just keep over. Exaggerate what you're not doing well. Okay? If you're making errors, put more spin on. On your shots. If you're passive again, you know, accelerate with spin. If you're missing your serve, throw a second serve in instead of the first serve.
- [39:14]
David Duchovny
I just wish we could translate these into life. I know I just had an emotional talk with my daughter, but I wasn't moving my feet enough, you know, So I think I gotta go back. I think I gotta go back and have another talk. You know, when you were talking about the feet out, you know, I was thinking of Guillermo Vilas. Remember, like, how he used to move his feet before return of serve? Oh, yeah, he did that little stutter step. Yeah. You know, I'll be watching tennis, and you'll see these great players. All of a sudden, their footwork just goes to hell. Like they. They're just not even in the right place, or they. They're not moving to the ball. And it's, It's. It is amazing that that's where it starts.
- [39:55]
Chris Evert
You get paralyzed.
- [39:56]
David Duchovny
Paralyzed farthest farthest from the brain, I guess.
- [39:59]
Chris Evert
Yeah. No, you get, you freeze up. You get paralyzed. You don't, everything shrinks, you know, you just get, you don't hit, you don't give yourself enough space to hit ground strokes. You don't throw your ball. Your ball toss is low when you're tight.
- [40:12]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [40:13]
Chris Evert
You know, everything is too close to you and you just gotta just kind of relax and just, you just got to make yourself do it.
- [40:21]
David Duchovny
As a kid, did you have a love of, you know, hitting those, those tennis balls? Did you love the game at first? Did you remember that?
- [40:27]
Chris Evert
Oh, no, I hate, No, I, I, my father. No, they started picking me up from kindergarten and bringing me over to Holiday park. And I used to, before I was being picked up, I was being picked up at kindergarten and I would go over to my best friend's house, Kara Bennett, who had a pool and we got to go swimming and she would have a barbecue and I was just living a normal life. And then my dad all of a sudden started picking me up, bringing me to Holiday park with a basket of balls and just feeding me balls. I'm like, what is the purpose of this? You know, I had no idea, right? But then I got better and again, I felt self esteem. I felt good about myself. I could put the ball wherever I wanted to in the corners, I could drop shot. I never missed a ball. And I was beating everybody. I was winning. So, you know, that started happening 8, 9, 10 years old, kids my own age, by the way. And then it was like I really, people started watching. People were sitting in the stands and starting. Like I would have 20 people watching me in practice when I was 8 years old. And I'm like, I like this, you know, I like the attention and I like, they would clap like that. So I must have been so insecure because all these things I loved, you know.
- [41:49]
David Duchovny
Of course. No, I don't think, I just think you're human. You're human. How else would you not get set up to pursue that? I mean, and when those things are no longer happening, and this is another, you know, question that I have for athletes, for elite athletes like yourself, is, you know, when the career does finally end and you had a very long career, you know, when people are no longer clapping and they're no longer coming out to see you play and you're no longer coming home with a big piece of hardware, that's gotta be almost like getting off a drug in some way, you know? And what happens to your heart and soul at that point? To say nothing of your self esteem and your head.
- [42:35]
Chris Evert
I was very lucky and I know that a lot of people, they have a hard time, you know, they don't. I had something to go to, you know, I had just gotten married and to Andy Mill and we, you know, we lived in Aspen part time in Florida, part time. And then two years after that I. I had my first child and continued. I had three children in like five years. And being a mom, that was nothing compared to being a mom. I mean, no Wimbledon title, nothing compared to that. I, I don't know that it was the, the most precious thing, the most joy I ever felt in my life. So I was very lucky that I had something to go to that gave me that joy.
- [43:19]
David Duchovny
So you didn't miss it? You didn't miss it at all?
- [43:21]
Chris Evert
No, I didn't because I retired because I was mentally burned out. I didn't retire because I had a physical injury and I couldn't play anymore. I could have played another five years, but because I put. You have to understand, I started playing tennis at 5, 6 years old and I played all the juniors until I was 15. Then I started playing pro tennis. I had so many years of intensity that I had to call upon such intense focus that I was at 33, when I was 33 years old, I started feeling like I didn't want to get out of bed and go play a match. You know, I just, I had it mentally. So I was ready, I was ready to retire.
- [44:16]
David Duchovny
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- [46:37]
Chris Evert
Com hi, I'm Emily Deschanel. And I'm Carla Gallo. And we're here to bring you Boneheads, the official Bones Rewatch podcast. That's right, we're watching all the episodes of Bones, starting with episode one and we are the right people to do it. I play Dr. Temperance Brednnan and I met Carla 16 years ago on set. I played Daisy Wick. Tune in every Wednesday to hear, hear all our behind the scenes stories, conversations with cast and crew, and our favorite moments. Boneheads from Lemonada Media is out wherever you get your podcasts.
- [47:27]
David Duchovny
I want to just touch briefly on, you know, this again, the notion of failure, where you go now you've retired, you're happily being a mom, but you go broadcasting and you consider that first stint as a broadcaster a failure. Am I right that that felt.
- [47:44]
Chris Evert
Yeah, I was, I wasn't very good.
- [47:46]
David Duchovny
How did you respond to that? Did you go into it thinking, well, you know, I know tennis inside and out. I'm going to be great at this.
- [47:54]
Chris Evert
Yeah, I was a great player. I'm gonna be great at this. Yeah, I, you know, I realized that I, I played my game with such instinct that I didn't know, you know, I mean, it got, the commentators were so technical about grips and about spins and about, you know, strategy and I mean, I just, I hit to the opponent, to their weakness. I mean, I just played their weaknesses and I just got the ball on the Court. And I was. I kept it simple, but, you know, that's not good for commentating, to keep it simple. Everyone wants to know, you know, the details of what's going on, the analytics.
- [48:36]
David Duchovny
The velo, the velocity, the spin rate.
- [48:39]
Chris Evert
So I wasn't. I mean, I was tough on myself. I don't know what anybody else was saying, but I just knew that, boy, this is. This is tougher than I thought. This is tougher than I thought.
- [48:48]
David Duchovny
Did you enjoy it at first? The first time?
- [48:52]
Chris Evert
Probably not. Probably not that much. But that was like the next step, you know, to retiring. You should be honored if NBC wants you and John McEnroe to be their lead announcers. But. So anyway, I did that for a few years and then stopped. And.
- [49:13]
David Duchovny
And at that point, did you. Were you thinking, yeah, I'm done with that. I'm not gonna.
- [49:17]
Chris Evert
Yeah, I did. Yeah. I. I didn't. But I had it again. I was building my tennis academy, and I had three boys, and it didn't really. I didn't really care. And it wasn't until after my third divorce. Thank God you haven't covered that. Those failures.
- [49:39]
David Duchovny
Well, not.
- [49:40]
Chris Evert
Not yet. To my third divorce when I. Norman.
- [49:46]
David Duchovny
We'Re only in the third set here. We're only.
- [49:48]
Chris Evert
I know. Okay, Okay. I was in bed, lying in a fetal position that my agent called and said, ESPN would love for you to join their team. And I'm like, no. Yeah. And then. And then he called back and he said. They said, how about for one week at Wimbledon? You don't have to do both weeks. How about one week at Wimbledon? Just test. Test the water, see if you like it. And by that time, I had been coaching my academy kids for about 10, 15 years, so. And I had been, you know, talking to the coaches, and I kind of had a better grasp of the current tennis, what was going on. So I said, finally, reluctantly, I said, okay, I'll try it for one week.
- [50:35]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [50:36]
Chris Evert
So I went there and I tried it, and I liked it. I liked it. I liked it more that time. We had it. We had a good. We had a fun team. I liked it more. And so it's been like 15 years I've been with them since then.
- [50:49]
David Duchovny
Before we end, I wanted to just talk about. And I'm sure you're tired of talking about this, but I think it's very near. It's dear to your heart, is just the way an athlete. You know, you've had two bouts with cancer, and the way an athlete approaches not just mortality, but sickness it's almost like, I want to say it's even more surprising for somebody who's in your headspace to, you know, the body that you relied on that took you around the world and gave you a life and career and an identity harder even to go. This body is now betraying me in a way. And I wonder also the sports metaphors about beating cancer and that kind of stuff, I wonder if you found those to be helpful or a hindrance to kind of the frame of mind that you need to kind of live with it.
- [51:52]
Chris Evert
Well, I think being tough on the court did help my attitude. I felt my resilience came out pretty strong during that time. I never thought anything about my body or why me? Because my sister, my younger sister Jeanne had died from ovarian cancer a couple years before I had it. And it was. Obviously, we all had the BRCA gene, so we had that genetic testing and that, you know, that wasn't good. And I was like, you know, I just. What helped me was realizing that I'm one of millions and millions and millions of people that have cancer. You know, it was. I felt like, why not me? You know, everybody, Everybody. When I, you know, you walk into a hospital and you're getting your chemotherapy and you just. The room is filled with people getting chemotherapy and it's like, you know, this is. It's almost normal. And, you know, I was in my 60s and wasn't like I was young or anything like that, but I do think, you know, I was. I had a better attitude. But, you know, it's also like, like you said, it's what the tough thing was because my body's always been strong as an athlete. I mean, even after tennis, I work out every day and it's. I need that for my frame of mind. And also I need to feel strong. And I kind of lost that going through the chemo and feeling like shit and going through that. And then when it came back twice, I think that was even more of a wake up call. Like, oh, my God, this death is possible. So, I mean, I hope it doesn't come back the third time. And that's all I. I get my CAT scans every three months, and when I get a clear CAT scan, which I have since my last one, I'm like, I can just go, you know, for three months. I'm going to be happy until the next one.
- [54:03]
David Duchovny
But you're also like the kind of player you were. And it's different from me because you say, get the information. You know, I've seen. Get Informed me. I'm like, I don't want to know. I appreciate your character in that as, as being, you know, give me all the information. And I think that's an important lesson for you to be imparting as well. Publicly.
- [54:28]
Chris Evert
I do too. Because there's a big difference between stage one, getting something early than stage four or five. And my sister got it. I learned of my. I learned that I was stage one, she learned that she was stage four.
- [54:41]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [54:42]
Chris Evert
And that's the difference. And it's the difference between life and death. And you've got it. If you, it's okay. If you get something, if you have something and you get it early, you'll be okay. You'll be okay.
- [54:51]
David Duchovny
Yes. Yes.
- [54:53]
Chris Evert
Okay, David. You'll be fine.
- [54:55]
David Duchovny
I will change. I will change. But I, I just wanted to add because I'm kind of like. I'm moving towards this idea I have in my head where sometimes, you know, when, when we're discussing cancer in public, you know, there's, there's a sense, you know, like defeat, cancer, battle, cancer, all this stuff. Like, like it is a, an opponent.
- [55:17]
Chris Evert
Yeah.
- [55:18]
David Duchovny
You know, in a one on one match. And if you lose somehow, you lost your battle with cancer. You know, I wonder, I wonder if those are, you know, metaphors that don't help us, you know, that, you know, on the other hand, we do need to have, as you say, the resilience and the toughness to, you know, want to stay alive through the pain and all that stuff. So I just wonder somebody who's been through it, you know, how you.
- [55:43]
Chris Evert
Yeah, I, you know, all I, all I thought about. Well, you know, you be. You become more spiritual and I've become closer to my higher being. Let's. Let's put it that way. Because I'm always talking to him or her, whatever, my higher being. And I mean, that's now my Catholic again, Lillian, who did my imprint therapy. Now I'm having spiritual therapy, you know, just to be. You know, just because I want to be. I want to be. I want to have more of a connection to my higher power. And I wanted. Because I've been faced. I've faced pretty much death, you know.
- [56:26]
David Duchovny
So what does this, what does the spiritual imprinting consist of, if you don't mind? I don't want you to give it away before it's all done and you've ascended to nirvana.
- [56:36]
Chris Evert
No, I just to have a. Just to have a stronger relationship with God and my higher power. Whatever I want it. I don't even, you Know, I've always had mixed feelings about. I mean, I need proof. Okay. I'm like, praying every night. Can you show me a. Can you show me a sign? Can you appear in front of me? Can my mom appear or dad appear? Can I listen? You know, and then she. Lillian makes me write down. She goes, write down everybody experience in your life that you've had a close call and that you should be lucky to be alive. And I. And I started writing down things, and I was like, on 20 things, and she said, and you don't think he's looking out for you? You know?
- [57:24]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [57:24]
Chris Evert
You know, how many near misses have we had in accidents or.
- [57:27]
David Duchovny
We don't. We don't even know.
- [57:29]
Chris Evert
Yeah. I'm just saying, it's like, you know, somebody's looking out for you, you know, so, you know, I just. But I never. I was always more. More thinking about, I hope this chemo is working. You know, I was more like that. Rather than kill the cancer, beat the cancer. It was almost like, I hope the chemo's working. I hope it's working. I made it simple like I do everything else in life. Just make it simple.
- [58:00]
David Duchovny
Chris, thank you so much for being open with me and talking about these sometimes difficult things. And it's nice to see you again. And I'm just an admirer of. Of what you're. Of your life, you know, what you've been able to do and how you talk about it. And I'll be listening.
- [58:17]
Chris Evert
Thank you. Well, I'm very.
- [58:19]
David Duchovny
Next.
- [58:20]
Chris Evert
French Open. French Open, yeah. I'll be doing two weeks of French and Wimbledon. Very. And thank you for doing all that research. That's very impressive. Getting to talk about the importance and things. That was good.
- [58:33]
David Duchovny
Oh, yeah. Okay, good. And good luck with the.
- [58:36]
Chris Evert
You don't like accepting compliments, do you?
- [58:38]
David Duchovny
Nope.
- [58:40]
Chris Evert
Well, it's good to see you, too.
- [58:41]
David Duchovny
Motivated by failure. Like you.
- [58:45]
Chris Evert
Okay.
- [58:59]
David Duchovny
Speaking with Chris Evert, I was struck by what. What has been called, like, the mysteries of the athletic heart and the resilience of athletes in the face of constant failure. Even though Chris Everett, I think, won 90% of her matches, which is incredible when you think about it, when 90% of her matches, but probably 52% of the points in those matches. And it's those little bounce backs from little failures, like losing a point, that is the remarkable thing in an athlete and a spirit like Chris Everett.
- [59:51]
Chris Evert
Foreign.
- [59:56]
David Duchovny
Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like my thoughts on conversations with guests including Alec Baldwin and Rob Lowe. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's Lemonada Premiere premium.com Failbetter is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowland and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.
- [61:08]
Chris Evert
Foreign.
- [61:14]
Sarah
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- [61:33]
David Duchovny
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