David Duchovny Gets Weird with Pete Holmes

Summary

Fail Better with David Duchovny

Episode: David Duchovny Gets Weird with Pete Holmes

Release Date: December 23, 2025
Host: Pete Holmes
Guest: David Duchovny

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Fail Better is an expansive, vulnerable conversation between host Pete Holmes and his guest, actor/author/musician David Duchovny. The central focus is the role of failure in creative, personal, and spiritual life, and how shame, coping strategies, and self-exploration inform everything from Hollywood careers to personal growth. The conversation flows naturally and honestly, touching on resilience, therapy, acting styles, fame, relationships, and the quest for meaning.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why a Podcast on Failure? (04:22–07:09)

• Genesis of the Podcast: Duchovny reveals the idea for Fail Better arose during the 2023 Hollywood strikes, encouraged by his agent as one of the few creative avenues open.
• Premise: He frames the show as a space to explore failure as a universal, formative experience. Despite frequent cultural agitation to "learn from failure," Duchovny questions the sufficiency of this narrative and highlights failures that still sting.
  • Notable Quote (DD):
    “A lot of things are tinged with failure in the creative arts and in life. Even the successes can sometimes feel like that…Some failures really kind of stick.” (06:44)

2. Authenticity and Vulnerability in Podcasting (07:25–09:49)

• Holmes and Duchovny agree that modern podcasting culture can lead to canned answers and self-censorship—but both strive instead for original, honest dialogue.

• Notable Quote (DH):
  “The premise is going to fall away, as I’m sure you’ve discovered… But also inviting the guest to be vulnerable.” (07:25)

• Notable Quote (DD):
  “The problem with doing a podcast now is everybody's kind of hip to how to do a podcast... and I’m so not interested in that.” (09:00)

3. Shame, Self-Critique, and Coping (12:22–13:56)

• Duchovny opens up about the role of shame throughout his career and life—how it can underlie habitual behaviors and outlast early formative experiences.

  • Notable Quote (DD):
    “My adult life has been, why do I feel ashamed for nothing? And how that shame grows… then the shame pushes me to behave in ways that I don’t feel are constructive or loving…” (13:10)

• Both connect these themes to creative self-expression, therapy, addiction, and finding reassurance in literature, religion, and philosophy.

4. The Drive to Be Seen: Fame and Objectification (15:51–19:22)

• Holmes introduces Alain de Botton’s idea: “You can tell a person’s mental health by how badly they want to be famous.” Duchovny adds nuance, relating objectification by others—and oneself—to early childhood patterns and the paradox of seeking love by becoming an “object.”

• Notable Quote (DD):
  “At some point, we became objects to ourselves… I stopped validating my subjectiveness, in a way… I was comfortable from a very young age being watched.” (18:21)

  • Holmes and Duchovny also explore how performing—whether acting or comedy—can “fill the hole” left by early unmet needs.

5. Embarrassment, Silliness, and the Art of Acting (20:14–25:21)

• Duchovny admits acting itself often feels “embarrassing” or “silly,” yet deeply beautiful as well, especially when it fulfills the human need for storytelling.
• He recounts his upbringing, where emotional expression was less valued than intellectual or academic achievement. Acting, for him, became a safe arena for exploring and expressing feelings.
  • Notable Quote (DD): “It was not what you thought, but what you felt. And all of a sudden it’s exactly the deficit, right? Here was a space where that didn’t fly at all… and nobody got hurt.” (24:21)

6. Returning What You’ve Been Given: Education, Books, and Legacy (33:04–40:20)

• Duchovny describes his near-PhD in English literature and how years of reading (“my head was the size of a blimp” - 35:59) became a “compost heap” of ideas fueling his later novel-writing and sense of giving back.
• He challenges the American system’s focus on “what you don’t know” and advocates for celebrating what people do know and love.
  • Notable Quote (DD):
    “My work is a conversation with what I was given.” (39:14)

7. Healing, Coping, and the Usefulness of Being Broken (46:53–50:35)

• Holmes and Duchovny trade stories of how their childhood wounds—especially familial dynamics—shaped their creative urges and how being “broken” is often what makes them relatable/useful to others, especially in entertainment or podcasting.

  • Notable Quote (DH):
    “I’m not very useful until I’m broken. Broken Pete is actually one of my favorite Petes.” (47:59)

• Conversation segues into emotional regulation, coping mechanisms (fight, flight, freeze, fawn), and self-soothing practices (deep breathing, grounding).

8. On Therapy, Shrinks, and Artistic Depth (55:01–56:10)

• Duchovny and Holmes humorously debate the myth that therapy “cures” creativity or makes artists less interesting.
  • Notable Quote (DH):
    “Who made that idea? The devil?” (55:23)
  • Notable Quote (DD):
    “There’s so many good [bodies of knowledge]...it just depends on whoever’s teaching you.” (55:48)

9. Acting Style, Rejection, and "Less is More" (61:16–66:51)

• Duchovny explains how auditioning failures shaped his “less is more” style (often called “flat” or “movie star” both as criticism and praise).
• He recounts being nearly fired early in his film career (The Rapture), having to review his dailies to decide whether to quit acting. He chose to persist, trusting his instincts.
  • Notable Quote (DD):
    “I found it through failure, really… But that was my take on acting. That was my natural wavelength.” (61:31)

10. Navigating Fame, Typecasting, and Public Perception (72:46–77:15)

• Duchovny reflects on being forever linked to roles like Mulder, how that used to frustrate him but now evokes gratitude for the connection and impact.

  • Notable Quote (DD):
    "Eventually I just come to 100 gratitude—like, holy s***, it meant something to people... Why not honor it?" (74:32)

• He discusses meet and greets, fan expectations, and how gratitude—even amid discomfort—is a powerful tool. Shares memorable stories about fans requesting odd photos or referencing iconic moments.

11. Spirituality, Creativity as Process, and Deep Connection (90:19–102:29)

• The conversation moves fully into spirituality: detachment, flow, and the inherent risks in loving deeply—whether in relationships, art, or life. Duchovny relates attachment/detachment to Buddhist thought and the inevitable heartbreak embedded in being alive.

  • Notable Quote (DD):
    “With acting and with making art, you can attach so intensely to something and you know you’re going to detach eventually… But the beauty of it is really attaching to it. Even so.” (91:00)

• They discuss psychedelic experiences, intersubjective unity, and the transformative power of recognizing shared consciousness.

  • Notable Quote (DD):
    “We were all in one conversation… All the walls came down…” (97:12)

12. Joy, Humor, and Fart Jokes (106:04–107:43)

• Duchovny reveals the biggest laugh of his life was recording fart sounds from his Tesla for his film Bucky Dent—proving even after heavy existential talk, flatulence is universal comedy.
  • Notable Quote (DD):
    "I recorded the Tesla farts on my phone and we put it in the movie and then I cried... they're all Tesla farts." (106:59)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Failure: “Some failures really kind of stick. What do you do about those?” – David Duchovny (06:44)
• On Shame: “Why do I feel ashamed for nothing? And how that shame grows?” – David Duchovny (13:10)
• On Objectification: “At some point, we became objects to ourselves… I was comfortable from a very young age being watched.” – David Duchovny (18:21)
• On Acting: “It was not what you thought, but what you felt. And all of a sudden it’s exactly the deficit, right? Here was a space where that didn’t fly at all.” – David Duchovny (24:21)
• On Giving Back: “My work is a conversation with what I was given.” – David Duchovny (39:14)
• On Usefulness of Wounds: “I'm not very useful until I'm broken. Broken Pete is actually one of my favorite Petes.” – Pete Holmes (47:59)
• On Artistic Depth: “Who made that idea? The devil?” – Pete Holmes (55:23)
• On Fame and Gratitude: “Eventually I just come to 100 gratitude—like, holy s***, it meant something to people... Why not honor it?” – David Duchovny (74:32)
• On Spirituality and Attachment: “With acting and with making art, you can attach so intensely to something and you know you’re going to detach eventually… But the beauty of it is really attaching to it. Even so.” – David Duchovny (91:00)
• On Humor: “I recorded the Tesla farts on my phone and we put it in the movie and then I cried... they're all Tesla farts.” – David Duchovny (106:59)

---

Important Timestamps / Segment Guide

• Podcast origins, theme of failure – 04:22–07:09
• Podcasting authenticity & vulnerability – 07:25–09:49
• Shame, coping, and mantras – 12:22–13:56
• Fame, objectification, performing as coping – 15:51–19:22
• Embarrassment and beauty of acting – 20:14–25:21
• Creative education and giving back – 33:04–40:20
• How wounds fuel creativity – 46:53–50:35
• Therapy vs. the "tortured artist" myth – 55:01–56:10
• Rejection, acting style, and “less is more” – 61:16–66:51
• Typecasting and gratitude – 72:46–77:15
• Spirituality, Buddhism, psychedelics, connection – 90:19–102:29
• Joy and the universality of farts – 106:04–107:43

---

Tone & Style Notes

• The conversation is open-hearted, irreverent, and deeply reflective—moving easily from jokes about fart scenes and Tesla jokes to meditations on legacy, spiritual connectedness, and the nature of art.
• Holmes brings a curious, warm, self-deprecating wit that encourages Duchovny’s own thoughtful, poetic, and candid reflections—frequently navigating between big questions and very personal vulnerability.
• Both speakers treat shame, failure, and even morbidity with a balance of seriousness and humor; Duchovny in particular is strikingly honest about being misunderstood, about gratitude, and about the ongoing experiment of living well.

---

Summary Takeaway

This episode is an unusually honest exploration of fame, creativity, and the human experience of failure—and how shame, resilience, and transformation shape art and life. Duchovny and Holmes turn their personal wounds and creative struggles into opportunities for insight and (often, unexpectedly) laughter. Listeners are treated to stories from inside Hollywood, philosophy and self-help advice, a little spiritual wisdom, and even some Tesla-fueled flatulence—all delivered in a generous, authentic spirit.

Transcript

[A]

The US Military deployed on the streets of America. Whole communities targeted for removal.

[B]

There was tremendous anxiety as they saw neighbors and friends being taken.

[A]

And when accountability finally came knocking, the.

[B]

Berne order to cover it all up. I never believed that America would be doing this.

[A]

A stain on this country. One that we said we would never repeat. Rachel Maddow presents Burn Order. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts, it's morning in New York. Hey, everybody.

[B]

I'm Andy Patinkin. And I'm Kathryn Grody. And we have a new podcast.

[A]

It's called don't listen to Us.

[B]

Many of you have asked for our advice. Tell me what is wrong with you people.

[A]

Don't listen to us. Our take it or leave it advice.

[B]

Show is out every Wednesday, premiering October 15th.

[A]

A Lemonada Media original. Lemonada. I am thrilled to meet you. I'm a big fan of yours. I. I think you're very, very funny. I actually, you know, I just did a movie with say what?

[B]

Pressure. I love Judy Greer. I love Judy Greer.

[A]

Judy Greer is amazing. And she told me to watch the TV set. Yeah, I did. And I thought you were phenomenal in it. And I'm also friends with Judd, and Judd was like, that's kind of me. And I kind of saw you do a little bit of a character study on Jed with the back problems and the, you know, the. The heavy crown of the producer.

[B]

The paunch.

[A]

And the paunch, of course.

[B]

Yeah, I. That was funny with that. With that movie, because that was Jay Kasdan writing and directing, and it really, you know, Jake pitched it to me as this is kind of my experience with Judd on Freaks and Geeks. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'll play. I'll play Judd, you know, and nobody knew who Judd Apatow was. Yeah. And the day we did the table read, you know, the week before we were gonna start shooting, we did a table read for investors because it was cobbled together like, you know, 20 bucks from this guy. And, you know, it was just a true independent kind of lab of love film for the Kasdan family. Yeah. And we went to the screening, the premiere screening of 40 Year Old Virgin that night, and I just remember sitting there and watching the audience just go nuts. And I was like, oh, they're gonna know who just happened to you.

[A]

Yeah, you're out of the bag.

[B]

I actually started to play him when nobody knew his name, and then by the time the movie came out, he was an adjective. There was like, Apatovian.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is how Jason Alexander must have felt when Curb came out, they're like, oh, there it is. There's the guy that I was kind of invoking the whole time. And now Larry David is almost. Well, I don't know. I. I don't know if you'd say more famous, but maybe as famous as Seinfeld. I would say that, yeah.

[B]

In his. In his. In that way. Yeah. I mean, I was. I'm sad that I never got to be on that show.

[A]

You would have been great on it.

[B]

Yeah, that would have been fun to do. It seemed like. It seemed like a bit of improvising, which I like to do, and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But back to Judy Greer. Just such a talented. Such a talented, funny, beautiful woman. I mean, I just. I love Judy Greer.

[A]

No, she was wonderful. And I'm glad she told me. Somehow I had never seen heard of that movie. And as somebody working in la, that's. You know, I've created my own shows. My experience. I. I worked with some. Really. With tbs, I worked with a very hands off network, and then with hbo, I worked on like a. Like, respectfully, hands off network. So I didn't have the excuse.

[B]

Which were the shows that you did.

[A]

I did a talk show called the Pete Holmes show that was on after Conan. And then I did a show that Judd directed and co created with me called Crashing on hbo, which was about being a comedian coming up in New York. But in both cases, we didn't have the nightmare that is the movie, the TV set of, like, getting noted to death and all that sort of stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, anyway, you're doing a podcast anyway.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Like, that doesn't count. You're. What is going. Why. What's going on? David, why are you doing a podcast? It's called Fail Better. Am I getting that?

[B]

Yeah, you don't. You don't have to say it like that.

[A]

Fail better. Like, with a question mark and an exclamation point and it's underlined.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, no, no, it's a great title. We say on this podcast all the time, fail faster. We say, fail faster. Find the fun. Which I didn't make up.

[B]

Oh, what is it from.

[A]

It's. It was framed in a video game. Like an independent video game company had it framed as their mantra, Fail faster. Find the fun. So if somebody was like, what if this game was two dimensional instead of three dimensional?

[B]

Do it.

[A]

They would just be like, just do it. Get to the fail. Because we know that that fail yields the result. Is that sort of the theme?

[B]

I guess. I mean, I don't know. I mean, one of the things that's interesting about doing a podcast, as I'm sure you know, is that you don't really know what you're doing or thinking or saying until you're out there doing it. So, yeah, my sense was. And this happened during the strikes of last year, so my agent said, we can't do anything for you. You know, nothing can be done, but we can do podcasts. Do you ever think about doing a podcast because that's covered under sag, Aftra, or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, no, but I guess I could talk to somebody about it. And I came up with a couple ideas and had a discussion with the agent there, and then we just sold it. It was like, I wish the rest of Hollywood was this easy, you know, or the people making decisions could actually make decisions that quickly, you know, it was kind of beautiful in that way. And I'm working with this company, Limonada, which is. They've been amazing and really collaborative. But, I mean, my sense was, yeah, I don't know what I'm talking about. I just know that a lot of things are tinged with failure in the creative arts and in life. And even. Even the successes can sometimes feel like that. And obviously personal failures as well. I don't know. I don't know how to process them. I don't know. You know, we talk about resiliency and we talk about all this. It's not like I have any answers. All I'm doing is having people come on and saying, are you interested in this angle of the discussion?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Looking at your life as a series of failures surrounded by occasional successes, whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And what did you learn? How did you grow? Resilience? If you did, are there some failures that stuck with you forever that. That continue to hurt? You know, because we have this narrative that, yeah, you know, you learn from failure. It's cool, it's great, you gotta fail. But some failures really kind of stick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. What do you do about those? So, yeah, it's just. That's just the door opening. I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. I'm no expert in it. I'm not a psychologist. That's just. I think it's an interesting angle on a discussion, and that's kind of what I'm going after.

[A]

Well, I mean, we've been doing the show for a long time, and I. I think you're doing two things really, really perfectly, actually. One is being loose about your premise, because the premise is Going to fall away, as I'm sure you've discovered just the premise, but also inviting the guest to be vulnerable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even if you don't end up talking about failures, you're saying, like, will you come on in the spirit of someone who's willing to talk about their failures, Even if we don't end up doing that, it's just like, yeah, exactly.

[B]

And also, I don't want to. I'm not trying to spring anything on anybody I'm not interested in.

[A]

That's us too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I say it, I go, it's not a gotcha podcast. In fact, I'll say that to you even if there something in a week. And you go, oh, I wish I hadn't said that. We just take it out. This is something, you know, we're making together. And then I feel like people actually do want to share. And that was actually my first planned question was like, how open is David Duchovny? Why won't you love me going to be on a podcast? Because honestly, I have you on. You're on my podcast right now. Yeah. And I'm like, how open is David Duchovny? Why won't you let me going to be on my podcast? Well, there's a couple of thoughts.

[B]

Yeah, I do. Because a couple of things have been, have been nagging at me since I started doing my own podcast, which is, you know, I don't want to give away my good. You know, like, I like you, Pete. Cool. You know, but if I come up with something good, I'd rather it was on my podcast. So there's, there's like something, oh, well.

[A]

Let me give you a tip. Just do it on both that nobody cares.

[B]

That's the other thing.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

The problem with doing a podcast now is, is everybody is kind of hip to how to do a podcast now or how to how to speak on a podcast. Everybody's got their rap down pretty good, and I'm so not interested in that. And I'm not interested in hearing it come out of my mouth either. So I guess I, my answer would be, I try to, I try to address whatever questions you have in an original way. I'll try to answer them as if I'm answering them for the first time. Yeah, Yeah, I am. But the, the other part of the answer to that is, oh, I, I, I think I, I've lost it. Whatever it was. I lost the thought, but it was.

[A]

Well, how open are you going to be?

[B]

How, how open am I going to be?

[A]

You don't want to use your on my podcast.

[B]

I might. No, I'll be open. I'll be open. I know.

[A]

I wouldn't say that if you were really going to lock up the vault. Nobody thinks you're being tight.

[B]

Yeah, I think, you know, I think everybody just goes through this calculus now where, where they go, you know, we're all fucking whores. We want to entertain, you know, and I want to make you laugh and I want to make your audience laugh. But the calculus now where you're like, well, is that laugh worth it? You know, is, is, is the laugh worth it?

[A]

Well, I actually think that the pod, we're a comedy podcast, but we also kind of lean self helpy sort of stuff. And like one of the great reliefs of this show is that we're not really trying to be funny. We have like huge half moments. But you'll, as an artist, you'll appreciate sometimes they have a 90 minute or a 45 minute setup to that moment. You know what I mean? It's just kind of talking. But then you actually score in this like Babette's Feast, like a long thing that only has one punchline. It's kind of like that and it became its own art form. And like you, I get angry that something podcasting that essentially was like ham radio. It really was like dorky and kind of underground and like this is where we'll have conversations that aren't slick. Now the bigger the guest I have, which is why I asked it of you, because you're very famous. I was like, is David Duchovny going to play ball? Because if I have like somebody's like, who's your dream guest for the show? You could say Matt Damon, but I, I'd worry that Matt Damon has been through the PR machine and he's just going to know the, the and where to pull back. But you know, like where, where, where's your line?

[B]

You know, it just depends because like I said, I, I've got, I've got kids, I've got an ex, I've got people in my life now. I've got a girlfriend. You know, again, I do the calculus. Like, yeah, I'd love to be honest and I'd love to, to help, like if what I could say could help or be funny or whatever. But I also don't want it to rebound on me. I have not had good experiences in the public sphere with being understood. I've been misunderstood a lot and there's no way I can make myself understood. It just has to happen. Naturally.

[A]

Is there a mantra that you carry? Like, if you're feeling like you're slipping into some old pattern, is there something that snaps you back into the, the, the David you want to be? Is there some advice that you've received, whether it's about addiction or marriage or relationships or not? But the, that's what I'm in the market for is like those things that.

[B]

Helped you, I guess I'm interested in. And what I, what I'm interested in my podcast as well is, is shame. You know, just how difficult it is to, to. Figure it out in, in your own life, areas in which you have, have been shamed or feel shame, and to go into those, to go into those areas, even if it's just sex or divorce, there's a lot of shame involved. And shame just kind of heaps upon itself. You know, it kind of grows exponentially in some weird way.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

And that's the killer for me is like my, my adult life has been, why do I feel ashamed for nothing? And how that shame grows? And then it, and then the shame kind of pushes me to behave in ways that I don't feel are constructive or loving or anything like that. So that's been my, my. I don't really have a mantra. I mean, there's, there's some great 12 step mantras, but I don't really have one. I mean, I love expectations of future resentments. That'd be good for you on this podcast here.

[A]

I like that. No, yeah.

[B]

So, you know, there's, there's good little touchstones and I find them in poetry as well. It's not just like self help type stuff. But I, I'm a reader and you know, I find literature is philosophy, is life philosophy. I find it in religion as well. So there's, there's been so much writing and, and thinking and religion about the very nature of our, our shame as humans. Original sin. I don't know what you want to call it, but there are many different names for it. And that's been kind of my interest as an adult, as an adult creator.

[A]

Me too. It's written.

[B]

I don't feel like, you know, it doesn't sound like the funniest kind of concept to go at, but it's, it's super funny.

[A]

What is super funny?

[B]

Shame.

[A]

No, I think that's what we're trying to salve through entertainment a lot of the time. I mean, wouldn't you say?

[B]

You know, I had this guy, Gabor Mate on my podcast and he's an amazing Addiction specialist and a therapist and a, and a doctor. And in his book the Myth of Normal that we were talking about, he said, you know, all this traumatic happens between the ages of 0 and 3. Like if you can get your kid to 3 without, without them up, you know, you're fine. And so it's not even like, it's not even like the, you remember either. It's. We're kind of, because we're, we, we do have this, we can process since we were conscious and we could put words on it. But then there's other stuff like lack of attachment or, or neglect that happens between 0 and 3 and, and I think we're very sensitive animals and, and a lot of that stuff can, can happen to us before we can even put a finger on it.

[A]

I completely agree. Alan Debutton, it always sounds funner. Alain Dubaton, I don't even know you know who I'm talking about.

[B]

Yeah, he.

[A]

I'm gonna put this to you. This blew me away when I heard it because talking about shame, you're like, why am I this way? Why am I this way? And I'm not looking to blame, but I am looking to understand. And he says, you can tell a person's mental health by how badly they want to be famous. And when I, when I heard that, I was like, I knew I was fucked up. Not in a bad way and not even in a finger pointing way. But I was like, yes, you said attachment. There was something just a little bit off. Everybody was doing their best, but there was something that was off. Nobody gets into a business like I heard you talking about. When you're working, you have what you called what's next disease, Meaning it's like, it's not even really about getting on the X Files and just enjoying it. It's like, I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm saying for me there's a temptation to go, let's fill the hole. Keep filling the hole. Keep filling the hole. Keep proving that we're worthy, that we're not shameful. I get this way with standup. I'll be feeling like broken and weird. I'll feel like a Frankenstein on the beach. Like everybody's having fun on the beach and I'm just like a monster. Then I go and do stand up. Strangers laugh, they hear me, they understand me. I exist, right? They exist. We're together. It's like I took 15 Xanax. I feel fantastic for several days. But that, that's just, that is what it is. I'm not mad at that. But I will also say I don't think that's the healthiest or the most normal situation. Do you relate?

[B]

It's the healthiest for you.

[A]

It works for me. Yeah, it does. I'm not mad at it.

[B]

A lot of people think strategy, right. You know, and as coping strategies go, it's. It's productive. You know, it's. May not ever work as long as you want it to, and there may be a. A deeper answer that you're. That you will find or that you find one day or. Or you don't. Yeah, but they're all just coping strategies with whatever kind of discomfort we have with ourselves. How. I don't know if I would agree with the buttons statement being, you know, putting on fame, but he's definitely. He's definitely got his finger on some button which is, you know, this. This desire to, you know, it's kind of the need to be objectified in a way. You know, it's. It's an impersonal kind of a approach to being loved. This is being loved by strangers or being loved by.

[A]

And isn't that safe? Right? It's safe if we keep it parasocial way.

[B]

But it also means we were objectified at some point. At some point, we became objects to ourselves, you know, like we did. We stopped being subjects. We stopped. Validating our subjectiveness in a way. I know this is sounding. No, it's great, but, you know, just the idea that, you know, you could sit in your skin and enjoy the day and enjoy the sensations coming your way and the people in your life and just be a subject. Just be a thinking, feeling, heartfelt, soulful thing. No, I'm an object. I've been objectified in some way, and I'm aware of that in my life. I. I was comfortable from a very young age being watched. And I don't know what that comes from. You know, it's. It was in sports. I liked being in front of a crowd. I like playing sports in front of people, and I was comfortable with it. So there's something in me that was comfortable with being an object. And that continues to this day, I guess that's funny.

[A]

I just. So John C. Reilly just did the pod, and he was, in my mind, famously disagreed with this statement, but going with what you're talking about. Well, Ted Danson is this quote. Everybody knows. I ask every actor that does the show, I ask them this question. Ted Danson has this quote that I love. He does a take, he walks back to his other actors. And he goes, isn't acting embarrassing? And I find that really funny that it's like pretending is kind of a transparent thing to do, meaning everyone knows you didn't just see an alien that turned into a lizard, like you were faking it. So to me, as. As kind of a performer, when I do acting, I. I find, like, a lot of my job is getting over the sort of embarrassment of playing pretend. But it sounds like you like being watched. Do you feel that way as an actor? Like, it's not embarrassing. It's natural. It's normal. Like, hey, look at this.

[B]

Or.

[A]

Or are you kind of like, are you still. David, Going, like, this is kind of weird. I was just talking.

[B]

Oh, I've always been embarrassed by it. No, I have. I mean, I've always been embarrassed by the need.

[A]

Okay, the need. What about actually doing it? Is that embarrassing as well?

[B]

It's silly. You know.

[A]

That'S sort of what I'm getting at. Maybe that's a better way.

[B]

But that doesn't mean it's not beautiful.

[A]

Yes. No, it's all silly.

[B]

There's silliest things are the most beautiful things. I mean, it. What I. I mean, it's more beautiful for. For being ridiculous, you know, And. And it obviously has a value in the culture because people pay us a bunch of money to do it. So there's a service that's going on. People love stories. They like to see people go through stories. I understand. It's like a service, you know? Like, it's not a. It's. It's not curing anything, but it's. We're storytelling animals, and we like to see the stories. We. We. We love that we want to go on those rides, and that's legitimate. It's legitimate to. To be in the center of something like that. But I think. When I think about why I became an actor, aside from, like, talking about objectifying myself, it's also. I. I grew up kind of being an intellectual kid. I was. I was an athlete. But my mother. My mother really drove home the need for me to do well in school, mostly because it was just a safety net for. For life, you know, that I'd get a decent job or. You know, she came from no money. My father came from no money, so. But I was raised by my mom, and it was very, you know, the gutter. She. She's Scottish. You'd also wind up in the gutter, you know, if you. If you don't get this a. Or that a. Or whatever. And it was. It was stressful. Stressful. It sounds laughable when I say it out loud now, but, but it's stressful for a kid. And I'm not, and again, I'm not blaming her. She, she, she came from a tough, tough time.

[A]

Right. And well, we can honor. I, I relate to that. I, I was so stressed out in school, I had a bald spot on the side of my head. I was just like, this is life and death. So while I appreciate, as I did, saying we're not pointing fingers, we're not, you know, making ourselves victims or whatever, we can also honor like when you're little and you were little, even in high school, you're still little. It's like you can't differentiate what is and isn't the end of the world.

[B]

No, I don't think the, you know, they're, they're, they're doing brain studies now and you know, they, I've got a 21 year old son and there are people that tell me like the male brain isn' isn't complete until 25 or something. Ridiculous.

[A]

That's why Enterprise won't let you rent a car until 25.

[B]

I could have just made that up.

[A]

It's all good. Welcome to podcast.

[B]

Might be 25 months, I don't know. So. But for me, like getting back to what I, what I'm trying to say about, you know, what acting means to me, aside from being silly. And I love Marlon Brando, my favorite actor, and he hated acting, I think genius, but he thought of it as ridiculous and the wearing of makeup and all this stuff, you know, I was like, what a, what a ridiculous way for a man to make a living. And he's like my touchstone. But for me, coming out of like an, an intellectual background where emotions were not the coin of the realm, you know, it wasn't what I felt wasn't. The important thing is what I thought was important. And then I stumbled, I was going to be writing and I stumbled into acting class because I thought I should learn something about acting if I was going to write for the stage or screenplays or whatever it is I thought I was going to be doing. And lo and behold, I was in this world where that was the thing that you got validated for. It was not what you thought, but what you felt.

[A]

And all of a sudden it's exactly the deficit, right? I mean, yeah, here we are, we're on the playground now, right? Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

And, and ah, I was like, wait, I can, I can do all these things and nobody's gonna get hurt. You know? Yeah. Because, you know, my mom's single mom. Tough, tough life, fragile, you know, prone to depression. So me being contrary or me having problems in my life were not cool. That wasn't, that wasn't part of the deal. I was going to be perfect. But here was a space where that didn't fly at all. You know, it was the opposite. And nobody got hurt. I didn't hurt my mom. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't hurt the other actors. You know, like I could yell in their face. Wow. And feel the, the anger that I felt underneath it all. And then we go out and hug, you know, and it felt amazing. So.

[A]

Yeah. See, you're okay for everything you're saying is so beautiful and it helps me understand. So my wife left me when I was 28. That's what crashing is about. And we did this scene where we have this big fight and Judd is directing and you know, Jed loves a good relationship fight. So he's turning up the volume. I probably wrote it very like, how.

[B]

Did he have the microphone yet? Was he.

[A]

You know, honestly, dude, it's one of my greatest acting achievements, thank you for asking. Is that he stopped directing us during the fight and he told me afterwards that that was a tip of the hat. So thank you for that self serving moment because I felt so proud. It was one of the first acting things I did. It was very emotional and he was like not interjecting with the mic, which Judd sort of famously, I think McKay too, that you know, they yell out lines into the mic.

[B]

Yeah, they're just yelling at alts, you know.

[A]

Exactly. Which is awesome.

[B]

One of them is a. I loved it.

[A]

Yeah, I love.

[B]

There was one time he yelled out and all. I didn't understand it and I just said it like a question.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did it make the movie? Was this the bubble?

[B]

Yeah, it was the bubble. I don't know if it made it in but you know, I'm, I'm having a scene with Leslie man, who's plays my on again, off again wife. And it's, it's his wife.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we've adopted a, a boy. Like a 10 year old boy just to make us look good. We're, we're up actors and so we've adopted this Latinx boy to make us look like we're, we're cool. And I clearly have not that much interest in him and I'm just trying to to bed Leslie again in the scene and I'm saying, you know, she's saying, don't look at me like that. I'm like, I don't even know what. How am I looking at you? You know what you're doing? I don't. I'm not doing anything. And Judd goes, And she goes, okay, we're only going to talk about our son. Okay. And I can't remember the kid's name, but Judd goes, well, our son looks really good in that dress tonight. I did, but I didn't get it. I was like sitting there out there in the scene and I was like, well, our son looks really good in that dress tonight.

[A]

That is great. That. And you said it anyway. Yes. That's just. To your director, incredible. I love that. So to your point, though, in real life, when my real wife really left me, I was very quiet. I, you know, you're bringing up all these thoughts as a child.

[B]

I don't want to, like, get into, you know, your, your. But how open are you going to be with me?

[A]

Very good, David Dickovna.

[B]

So when she, when she, you're saying she left you, it was just, she lowered the boom, said, I'm leaving and you're quiet. Or was it a process of.

[A]

Well, it was. I can tell this story, I think pretty quickly. We were living in Brooklyn because I wanted to be a comedian and she had been following me around. I started noticing this distance. We moved to Sleepy Hollow, New York, Tarrytown, basically. Yeah. Because she was from the country and she wanted to be in the country. And I was like, oh, this will fix everything. We go up there and it gets worse. There's more and more distance. Like, like you can feel it. I was a, I was a baby boy. I was 28 years old, so I didn't know what was going on. Looking back, the signs were everywhere. You know, you're in bed with backs to each other and you're just like, what the. I thought it was because we weren't seeing each other because now I'm commuting into New York city to do three minutes. Literally three minutes of stand up comedy. 11pm in the Village and then going back two hours was hell. I go home and she's distant and I'm like, well, this move isn't working right. Lo and behold, she was having an affair. She had been having an affair, she tells me. And I was like the picture of naivety. I just didn't know. I didn't see it coming at all. And there was no fight because to your point, growing up as kids, that feeling like there isn't enough Room for my feelings again. Everybody did the best they could, but I felt more like the l tamer for other people's feelings. So having learned that pattern, here's this devastating moment. There's no fight. There's no moment of like, how dare you. I trusted you. There's none of it. Cut to all these years later doing crashing and, you know, yelling and letting it out and saying things that you felt. And so exactly to your point, I was like, this is wonderful. This is. People pay in therapy to do role playing like that, you know, because it heals you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which actually goes back to what you said earlier about acting. It's like, you know, we're not curing anything. And I don't want to be two self involved actors, but I would say you mentioned poetry. I know you're into literature. How many times has your heart been healed by Mary Oliver? I mean, how many times is. Whoever your person is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Probably prevented a disease from forming because you felt represented on a page of a book. Right. I mean, that happens.

[B]

Oh yeah, of course. And, and it, and I hope this doesn't sound super egotistical, but I, it happens with my own work sometimes, like when it's good enough and especially having written novels now and it's just to like hold it in my hand and to, to look at some of the passages that I would have forgotten, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'll go, I'm happy leaving that behind. You know, I, I, My thoughts turn to death a lot. It's, I'm not being morbid, but I think about what I leave behind. Not that it really matters. I, I don't like talking about legacy and like, I always like when athletes talk about that. I don't like shut the up, you know, like there's, who cares about the legs. But yeah, I'm happy that I'm leaving some expressions behind. Some, some, whether it's in some movies and television shows or whether it's music or whether it's in the books, there's parts exactly what I came here to do, you know, like that, that I'm looking through my own eyes and feeling with my own heart and that's. And thinking with my own brain and that's, that's the, all those things can come together occasionally. It was super silly and embarrassing, but I.

[A]

The vehicle might be silly, but the result. Sometimes I try to remember what a movie meant to me when I was 17 years old. You know what I mean? For me, it was goodwill hunting. I went and I saw it changed my life. I was like, you can leave Boston. I'm from Boston. Like, you can leave. Like, that movie ends with Matt Damon doing the impossible, which is leaving Boston also. I mean, there's so many movies. Melania has a great line where he goes in all Boston movies, the. The antagonist is Boston. Like, it's like you're trying to just leave Boston. And when I saw that in a movie. So, like, I'll do you one worse, though, meaning not egotistical, but to take it up a realm. Richard Roy, the Franciscan, he's a teacher of mine, and he's a beautiful man. He says that the meaning of life is to humbly and proudly return what you've been given. Right. So you were given all of this experience. So there's a paradox there. Being humble about it, but also being proud about it. That feels like acting to me. That feels like writing to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you should be kind of ashamed, and you sort of are. It's a little embarrassing, but you do it anyway. But we're in this place that is creation and is flow and expression. And when you merge, and I want to put this all back to you, but when you merge in that river of. Of movement, of honest moving. If it's honest acting, writing, directing, whatever you're doing, aren't you sort of in sync with the nature of reality?

[B]

You're in sync with something, you know, I think you're in sync with. I. What resonates to me and what you say is giving back because. And going back to my mother again. In education. I went to graduate school in English literature to get a PhD. I didn't get my PhD, but I almost did. You know, I got close. So I read books and poems, and I SAP my orals. And when you set your orals for PhD, you have to be responsible for 10 out of 12 subjects. And those subjects are like. Shakespeare is one. Wow.

[A]

This is the oral exam.

[B]

Yeah. They're gonna. Whereas an oral exam. You don't. You got nothing with you. You might as well be naked. You know, you're gonna. You don't. You don't have a phone. It was before phones anyway. You can't look anything up. Yeah.

[A]

And there's a board of scary.

[B]

Like, scary professor.

[A]

Yeah. And they go. Do they call you Mr. Duchovny? Mr. Duchovny, what is your feeling?

[B]

I don't remember. I. I just remember walking from my apartment to my oral exam, and it was snowing because you do two years of classwork and teaching. Is this boring?

[A]

I'm loving this.

[B]

Okay, so you do two, two years of classwork.

[A]

I actually was just thinking you're gonna be. I know you already did your podcast, but you're great, for what it's worth. Now I'm interrupting. But you do two years of classwork.

[B]

Go.

[A]

Keep going.

[B]

You're doing wonderful two years of classwork, but you're also a teaching assistant. And apparently I had Sean Levy as one of my students much later. I didn't remember him, but he. Well, because he was one of many.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So they give you a full semester after your two years to, to go and just read. So I'd spent the last five months reading probably 10 to 12 hours a day, trying to shore up the gaps in my knowledge for these 10 of 12 subjects. Like I punted on, on Beowulf. Like, I, I knew I wasn't going to get that, so I, I, I punted on a couple subjects, but I had 10 to do. And it's like 19th century poetry, you know, the early novel. So these huge subjects, all of Shakespeare, not just the plays, but the poems and the sonnets and everything.

[A]

What?

[B]

Because they can go in. They can, they can with you if they want to.

[A]

It sounds like the whole thing is designed to, with you. None of this sounds like it's designed to make you succeed. I mean, are we mad about this? I'm a little mad. It's also just favoring.

[B]

This is what I'm getting at.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

I'm not mad at all. So mad I'm walking to that meeting on, is it High Street? New Haven, and I just had the sensation that my head was the size of a blimp because it truly felt like that, like I couldn't get anything else in there. I mean, I had just been reading for four months every day. And in fact, I was living with a woman at the time, and I wasn't paying a lot of attention to her. And she came to find me in the library and there was like three of us graduate students together. And later that night I came home and she said, I have to apologize because I saw the way they look and I understand now what you're going through. Wow. Just this, this haunted, pale, you know, malnourished, worried kind of a state. So I, I get in there and so anyway, that the, the orals was fine. I, I passed them and, and the scary professors were, were kind, you know, and they don't actually try and do gotcha stuff, you know, they, they, they want in the best sense and, and what I feel like is wrong with American education is they often test for what you don't know. They don't test for what you do know. And, and I feel like it would be a much better educational system if we tested for what they do know, you know, and get them excited about what they know rather than scared about what they don't know.

[A]

I love that. I love that. I, I've already tried to tell my, she's only five, but I try to tell my daughter. Like, it's like learning is stealing. Like, to make it sexy. Like, you're stealing, you're taking these. Like, art is, is stealing. It's sexy. Learning will, will help you meet people. It'll get you better friends. It'll get you better food. This is all good hotels.

[B]

It'll get you, I don't know about that.

[A]

It'll get you better hotels, David.

[B]

You had me.

[A]

You had no hotels.

[B]

Food. The food thing was weird.

[A]

Well, because you're going to get a better job.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then you're going to be eating better food, probably, but it's certainly to take it back when I still had you. You are going to make very interesting friends. And you. And, and, you know, I'm also implying you're going to have better relationships. You're going to have in, you're going to be interesting because you'll be interesting yourself. Yeah, that too.

[B]

It's like other people. Yeah. Arts.

[A]

Yeah. Show yourself some respect and, and put some good stuff in there. You remind me Joseph Campbell. I remember before he started teaching, went off into the woods. It's like that mythic kind of trope. And you did that. You read for 12. Were you taking notes? Are you just cramming?

[B]

I'm sure I was taking. I mean, I, I, if I run across a book from that time that I was using the, all my notes are in the margins. This one, I, you know, before we read electronically, you could actually read with a pen. I like reading with a pen because I like having thoughts and writing with the margins, even if I never come back to it. But what I was, what I was getting to from the beginning of that story was you mentioned humbly and proudly giving back.

[A]

Returning what you've been given.

[B]

Yeah, you've given. So it took me, I published my first novel when I was 55.

[A]

So last year.

[B]

Yeah, last year. So I, I, it took me 30, 30 years to start to give that back. And once I started to give it back, I realized how deeply all that stuff was in me and how, how much I loved it and how much I loved being in the conversation. And that's how I see it. My, my work is a conversation with what I was given. So I'm like, these books started a conversation in my head and now I'm finally not that everybody has to write a novel to have a conversation, but that's my way of joining the party and saying I respect that party and that party means a lot to me. And so yeah, I, I do, I do respond to your, your line about even though I can't get it right.

[A]

No, you actually kind of, you didn't. I wouldn't say you improved it, but you did make it quicker. Humbly and proudly giving back is what you said, but which is returning what you've been given. So you did make it a little more succinct.

[B]

In times like these, rights and dignity need champions like you. Across the world, from Sudan to Gaza to right here in the us People are losing access to essential health care. Attacks on contraception, abortion and gender affirming care are spreading fast. It can feel like fear is winning. But here's the truth. Fear only wins when we stay silent. That's why ippf, the International Planned Parenthood Federation, is calling on all of us to give fearlessly. When you donate, you help local providers deliver life saving services in more than 150 countries. You fuel the fights for policy change and empower organizers to stand up for reproductive freedom. Give fearlessly today and your gift will be matched. Visit ippf.orgfailbetter to make your match donation right now. That's ippf.org failbetter if you're not failing, you're not learning. And I definitely believe in lifelong learning. That's why I love Masterclass for the people in my life who I know share that commitment. There's no better gift than the gift of knowledge. Whether that's learning a new skill or hobby or just expanding your horizons. You can find it all on Masterclass. Some of their offerings you can apply the principles of improv to your life with Amy Poehler, strengthen your personal and professional relationships with help from renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel, or look and feel better with courses on gut health, brain health, and skin health. All of these are perfect options for anyone looking to start the new year off right. Need proof? 88% of surveyed members feel that Masterclass has made a positive impact on their lives. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. With plans starting at $10 a month billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's Best business leaders, writers, chefs and more. With Masterclass you get thousands of bite sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules. You can learn wherever you are on your phone, laptop, or even your tv. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com failbetter for the current offer that's up to 50% [e-mail] failbetter masterclass.com failbetter better are you traveling over the holidays? Have large family gatherings. With all the hustle and bustle coming up, it's extra important to be proactive about your health. And you can do just that with AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that combines a multivitamin, prebiotics, probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants into one simple green scoop. It's one of the easiest things you can do to support your body every day. Who says you have to wait till the new year to start a healthy habit? The holiday season is as good a time as ever to fill nutrient gaps, support gut health and digestion, and support your immune health. The holidays have always tended to wear me down and throw me off my game. Overall, I just don't feel my best during or after. I'm sure you know what that feels like. I Wish I had AG1 in years past to give me that much needed boost. It's such a simple, all in1 solution. AG1 has their best offer ever. If you head to drinkag1.comfailbetter you'll get the welcome kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2, an AG1 flavor sampler, and you'll get to try their new sleep supplement AGZ for free, which has been a game changer for my nightly routine. That's drinkag1.com failbetter for $126 and free gifts for new subscribers. So I, I do and you know, I'm accused in my writing of, of, of too much elusive elusiveness, you know, like referring to other authors. But I do it. I do it honestly. I, I really, I'm not looking up, maybe if I, if I'm quoting something and I want to get it right, I'll do that. Or I'll just kind of paraphrase it. But I have so much in my head still from that six months of cramming that it looks for places to come out.

[A]

And that is, you know, it reminds me of the Picasso thing. Like great artists steel. It's like you're actually. What actually is unique is the bowl. It's not what's in it, it's how those things dance together. Now I'm going to change the metaphor. Like in the washing machine of your brain, you put all these.

[B]

I call it compost heap.

[A]

Even better, because it's evolving.

[B]

Yeah. It's. It's all. It's all dead, but it's lying there. It's beautiful. Dead. It's guano back. Yeah. Very expensive.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Ben, this is what I would tell my kids because they. They grew up just at the cusp of when the phones were omnipresent. Way worse now. But, you know. Yes. The phone has all the knowledge. You don't need to know these things. And I hated memorizing dates and like that. I'm not talking about that. But you need. You need a lot of ideas in your head to just sit there, inert. A lot of stuff that doesn't seem interesting to know if it's. If it's all crammed into that brain of yours, eventually they're going to knock into each other and something is going to spark. And you're also new. New thing is going to happen.

[A]

That's exactly right. And isn't it weird? Like, why is something more interesting to you that goes back to how you were raised, but you become this incredibly interesting search light, like you're your own search engine. You and I could listen to the same lecture and would write down and underline a different thing. And isn't that just exactly what we're doing here? We're all holding different parts of the mystery and somehow we all come together and hold it all up together.

[B]

Yeah. And that's, you know, to go back to the. The wound, you know, that. That's what usually, you know, you have to, like, be thankful for that wound because it gave you. Yeah. You know, it crushed your lens a little differently. You know, exactly the far side or whatever. But it's like, gave you a vision. Yeah. In your quest to heal yourself or to understand yourself or to understand those who raised you or those you loved or. Or whatever is really what's. That's you giving back. You know, that's you giving back to the world.

[A]

I. I was just going through. Just this morning, my wife and I went to coffee and I was complaining about something my mother did. Just said pretty innocently, but it really sent me off the rails. And I said to Val, having had a coffee and a little conversation to process it, I was like, at least I'll be Useful now. Meaning we do podcasts together, my wife and I. On Friday, I do this podcast with you. Here it is, coming up. I'm like, I'm not very useful until I'm broken. Broken Pete is actually one of my favorite. Pete.

[B]

Am I getting broken Pete?

[A]

Oh, yeah. This whole week.

[B]

You know what it is?

[A]

It's very sweet.

[B]

You want to tell me what it was? What happened with your mom?

[A]

No, I will tell you.

[B]

Yeah, I want to hear.

[A]

My parents had a very tumultuous relationship, and it's their 50th wedding anniversary. And my mom keeps asking me to do more and more things. Like, I'm going. And I. And I keep telling her that's. I go, my presence is the present. Like, that's what I'm doing. But she keeps asking me to, like, the ask that for some reason, it was like, the third or fourth. And by the way, I. I don't know. People can judge this if they want. It's a very complicated relationship. That's what I'll say. So when she was like, can you print up photos of me and dad for the party? And I just, like, I basically white out. I. I'm this close to shaking that. And then Val is helping me. She's going, pete. And again, my parents, I've. I've done my best to forgive them. It's an ongoing process. I love them. I understand as well as I can understand. But that was the relationship that put me in a crock pot and cooked me into a comedian. Jesus Christ. That's not. That's not a natural thing. Why.

[B]

Why did you flip out of that?

[A]

Because she's asking me or something to be the party planner for a relationship that is very complicated for me. Like, will you help us? It kind of.

[B]

Watch this.

[A]

Whitewash it. Yes. It's. It's like, you know, I don't want to overstate it, but it's like the warden at the prison I used to go to being like, will you. Will you print up pictures of your time? Remember the yard? And I'm being. I'm exaggerating, but that is how it feels to child people, Pete. You know what I'm saying? And I have to honor that child Pete. That's how he feels. So I. I start to white out, and then I. And then we unpack, and she helps me understand all of that, and I go, that's good, because I know there's a lot of people out there that are getting flying off the handle at seemingly innocuous things. Your mom asking you. To print photos is not a big deal, but we have these, like, tsunamis of response. And that is one of the. But at least I'm useful. I'm like. I'm not much use if I just walk around going like. And I've forgiven them and everything is fine, and I just remember. Yeah, they're. They're. You know, I try. I try to remember that at her core, my mother is the exact same thing that I am. She's just consciousness. I do that, but that's intellectual, and I need to bring it into my body. And my wife is so good at that. Val is so good at that. It's like. She's like. She was having me do this at coffee. She's like, touch your arms.

[B]

That's brilliant, right? She's. She's grounding you. Yeah.

[A]

She goes, touch your arms. Your extremities are getting no longer now you're here now. Exactly. This resonates with you.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. My girlfriend does similar things like that. She was raised like that. Her. Her father would. Would touch her like that, you know?

[A]

Oh, to get her in her body.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I'd never really. I'd never seen that or heard of it.

[A]

Was that eft. Is that what she was doing?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

Is it these points. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And it doesn't matter. I do stuff like that because your. Your body goes into. We just were. I'm gonna throw this back to you. My val was like, fight, flight, freeze, and Fawn. I forgot about Fawn. And my strategy is Fawn, meaning if I tell my parents they're the greatest in the world, everything's a copacetic.

[B]

I never heard of fun. I know. I didn't know was part of it.

[A]

Me neither. I thought it was a deer.

[B]

I thought you were saying fun. Like a Boston guy.

[A]

Fawn.

[B]

That's.

[A]

That's more Long Island, But Long island in Boston is very similar. But. But these coping strategies of going, like, just tell everybody that they're the best. No room for your feelings, all that sort of stuff. Just kind of send it back out. So your girlfriend helps you get in your body. That's interesting. Tell me. Tell me what that made you think of.

[B]

Well, when you were saying that, it made me think of this discussion I had with Gabor, the guy I mentioned, because he's. He's like, 80, and in his book that we talk about, he talks about his wife not picking him up at the airport when she should have, and he's super pissed, you know, and he's this guy who's supposed to handle all the shit and he's like this little. Yeah, we were talking about that. And you know, for him, and I hope I'm not getting him wrong and maybe he'll hear this and hate me, but for him, it's lengthening the period between the poke and the response. You know, it's. It's because you're never not going to have the response. That's. That's the false hope is like, yeah, I'm going to get to that point where. And that's what Scientology is the promise of, where I'm not reactive.

[A]

You'll never have the reactive mind.

[B]

Yeah, won't have the reactive mind. I will be. I will be. I'll be the actor, not the reactor.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Not possible. Like, especially if it happened pre. Verbally, it's not going to happen. But you can lengthen the time between you getting triggered and you lashing out or leaving your body or whatever it is. However, and then, you know, obviously you have somebody. You've chosen your wife to help you to regulate. Yeah. So that's great too, that you have somebody to help, but you can do it yourself as well. You can do it alone.

[A]

Yeah. To me, I. I've gotten so much mileage now. I'm just saying this to you as, you know, your new pal. The deep breath in and the long breath out the mouth, I can't get over it. I. It. It helps so much. I heard Dr. Huberman talking about. It's. It lowers your cortisol, right. Pretty incredibly. So after that text, I'm in the car, I'm driving to a podcast. I'm just going like, I'm alone in the car, so who cares? And I'm telling you, 10, 15 of those and your body starts to come back online. And I was like, poor little Pete, he would have loved to known that he would have loved. Like 7 year old Pete would have killed to know that.

[B]

What did seven year old Pete do? He fawned.

[A]

Seven year old Pete fond. And, and he performed, you know, funny.

[B]

He got funny.

[A]

And this is maybe when I learned to be an object. You know what I mean? Like, there's nothing. And again, I'm putting this back to you. It's like, if I can get everyone laughing, what is more comforting than getting. Look, I grew up in a house where there were. There's alcohol involved, there's tension. And now I go up in clubs and there's alcohol and there's tension and I. And I turn them in the exact same way I was. I'm not going to say broken, but.

[B]

In the same way the crime back.

[A]

They always come back. You in a trench coat, they always come back. We do.

[B]

Look at Pete. I knew you'd be back, Pete. Just a matter of time.

[A]

But it's a role play to go like, I know how to calm this dinner down and I know how to calm the Miami Improv down.

[B]

How about the fear of not being funny when you know all this? How about that fear? How about the fear? Because the fear.

[A]

What's your take?

[B]

You're not gonna be a great artist if you go to the shrink.

[A]

Strongly disagree. Yeah, I'm not even going for mentally. Well. I'm going for straight up spiritual realization. And I'm like, the more I clear up my. The better I am.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, who made that idea? The devil? You know what I mean?

[B]

It's just like that idea.

[A]

Maybe because.

[B]

I don't know, there's a lot of bad shrinks out there, you know, so. Yeah, they can do some harm in that way. You know, it all depends on the practitioner. Like, I. I really feel like bodies of knowledge, there's so many good ones out there. It just depends on whoever's teaching you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and. And I don't know why I'm mentioning Scientology again, because I have no interest in it. And I. Whatever. But. But if. If you've got a guy who's a great teacher and he happens to be teaching Scient, get some good out of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just because it's a great teacher. It doesn't. Whether it's Buddhism or. Or. Or Judaism or Christianity. Yeah. If you teacher, then you're going to learn.

[A]

I completely agree. In fact, it's so funny. I. I feel that way about your work as well. Is I like hanging out with David. I know you're playing roles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But sometimes I think as a comedian, I say this all the time. The jokes are an excuse to be in the energy that we're creating together. And I feel that way. I was watching Bucky Dent and it's wonderful. And I'm very happy for you that your book is. Is becoming this movie.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

And when you. Come on. I didn't know you were in it. I just threw it on. I was like, oh, he directed it. He wrote it. Here we are. And then you're the dad. And this feeling. I don't want to butter your bread too hard, but I go, oh, there's that guy. You know what I mean, it was a familiar, comforting, oh, I get to hang out.

[B]

But I like that compost heap.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I like to put my seed in it.

[A]

Well, I did call you, David, to come to you. Why don't you love me? So that's fertilizing me.

[B]

It's fertilizing me.

[A]

Well, it is. And I think that's right.

[B]

I think that's right.

[A]

Yeah. Like a date. Alan Debottan also says on a date you're recognizing wounds, are recognizing one another. And there's something in the way that you react as an actor that, that resonates with me, that I go, that's authentic. I feel uncomfortable by the things he feels uncomfortable. I don't know, it's in the eyes, it's in the face, it's in the body. They're all these unconscious non verbal things that my body goes, okay, I can become a part of this movie. I see a place for me in you. Right. Pretty cool.

[B]

That's beautiful. I, I, I don't want to agree with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Be unseemly. But I get what you're saying and I, I was just thinking about actors that I like being in their space.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and sometimes the way it occurs to me is, you know, as much as I don't, as much as I think acting is ridiculous, whatever that quote was. Or silly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or, and I'm ashamed in, in some ways to be an actor. I'm not making a joke.

[A]

No, I love it though. The truth is funny to me. It just makes me laugh.

[B]

I, I think I really like actors who seem to love acting, you know, because might not be me, you know. Yeah. I love it on some level. That's not John Travolta to me. Like, I just think he loves acting. I just, I watch him and I just think he's having so much fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, oh man, I love being in that space.

[A]

Yeah, me too.

[B]

It's not about the acting. That's so, he, he just loves it, man.

[A]

And so many comedians do that.

[B]

He might hate it, he might hate it. But what I get is he's, he, he loved to be on set that day, you know? Yeah. And, and now he's giving it to me and now I'm feeling that love, you know, the love of what you do, you know?

[A]

I agree. No, it's an inspired thing to see a person in a state of non resistance. You know what I mean? This guy's not mad that they kept him on ice in his trailer for six hours.

[B]

No, no, no, and let me tell you, I will let you know when I'm resisting. You know, I'll show you in the performance.

[A]

That is so great.

[B]

I'll let you off. And that's bad. It's bad, bad, bad.

[A]

I. This is not morning radio. You're a small actor. Like, you.

[B]

You're.

[A]

You're a. Well, how would you describe it? It's almost like you're. When I say small, I mean, you're. You're doing it with restraint. You're doing it kind of cool. You're doing it cool. Sounds wrong, but I'm trying to compliment that. You're doing less, and I'm more interested.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you tell me. This is a very specific question. Are there times when you've gone against that. That being kind of a thing that you're known for? One of the things that comforts me. Have you gone against it and made, like, a really big move and been like, God, I hope they don't use that tick?

[B]

Oh, yeah, there's certainly. There's certainly that. But there's also been, like, roles that I'll see that can come my way, where I go, okay, this is kind of a big swing for me. And they don't really mean. You might not even see it as different. But I go back to, like, probably, like, Zoolander, you know, that kind of a thing where I'm playing, you know, this kind of ridiculous character, or. Or the TV set. I feel like I'm a little bigger in that. Or the Estate I did a couple years ago play a really goofy, funny character. Or I played Howard Cosell on the History of the World. I mean, it's like, right. I'm there for 35 seconds. But for me, it was like. Like, yeah, well, okay. I'm doing, like, sketch comedy kind of work.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Which I've not done. Or when I did snl, I do enjoy it because I like that kind of. I like that. I like tapping into that energy, which is not my natural. Yeah. Kind of artistic way to go with it, but I do enjoy it and I do respect it, and I. And I love it. Yeah.

[A]

It's interesting. When I watch myself act 99.9 of the time, I'm like, I wish I had done less. And is that. Did you come about your style from watching yourself, or was it something you found in your shoes?

[B]

Yeah, I found it through. Through failure, really. I mean, when I got to la, I auditioned my. My manager, who's no longer my manager, but she used to. She used to Keep track of how much she used to tell people how many auditions I didn't get. You know what.

[A]

And you fired this person?

[B]

I guess it was like her way of keeping me in line or something. But, you know, and I. It always seemed like a too large a number, but there was a lot. And I get, you know, I get the feedback, you know, Remember when you were always getting feedback? Remember? Feedback, Feedback. See back. What's the feedback? What's the feedback? Okay, the feed. Feedback is not good. The feedback is not good. Feedback is great. The feedback was great.

[A]

They're just.

[B]

Then it's not going to be you, but the feedback.

[A]

They're going in another direction. But they absolutely loved you.

[B]

They love you.

[A]

You know what sucks about that, by the way, is that works on me when my agent goes, they loved you. I'm like, they loved me. They know just how to handle.

[B]

I don't even need the job. I don't even need the job.

[A]

I don't need the job. That was enough. That was enough.

[B]

You were going for. You just wanted the love.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Not the job.

[A]

God is dialed in.

[B]

So I get flat or movie star. That was one. I got a lot, like, because I was auditioning for, like, television. It's like, oh, he's a movie star. And I was like, I can't make my rent. You know, I'm not a movie star. I'd, like, really like this TV job. So I knew what I was doing was. Because back then, there was a distinction. This is like 1989, 1990. There was a pretty strong distinction between TV acting and film acting and.

[A]

And X Files. Sort of change that NYPD Blue a little bit. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And then, of course, you know, cable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There. And. And now the distinction is is a race. It might maybe even be weighted the other way now where, you know, it do more.

[A]

You can be a bigger star if you're on a huge.

[B]

Not just a bigger star, but you. The work you can do is more. You can be more subtle, actually. And, you know, rather than Avengers 22 or whatever, you know, it's like. Right. It might be weighted the other way now, but then, you know, TV was. You know, I don't want to badmouth the shows that I love, like Star Trek or whatever, but it was, you know, wasn't considered the same caliber as great film acting.

[A]

Like. Right. It was a volume medium. It was like, we can do a thousand of these.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

As opposed to Breaking Bad, which is reminding me of the X Files episode that had.

[B]

That's. That's where Brian met Vince. That's what.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. X Files was the beginning of Breaking Bad.

[B]

I forgot it was. Yeah.

[A]

So cool.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Vince was going to choose one of those actors in that car, and it wasn't me. It wasn't.

[A]

So you would have been a great Walter White. No, you would have been a great Walter White.

[B]

Vince is so good. So good. Yeah. But so, yeah, I would get flat. Flat was the negative. Movie star was the positive. And I just knew, like, even if. Or he's. He's doing nothing, you know, he's not doing anything. Yeah. Yeah. And even if. It was like, if I thought I was being deadpan funny, which is something I aspire to, like, Buster Keaton is like a God to me and stuff like that, so. But I knew that I was up to something. I knew I was doing something, and I knew possibly I had to work on my craft a little more so that people could see it, but I also knew that that was my natural, like, wavelength, and that was the way I was gonna do it. Like, that was my take on acting. Was going to be doing it this way.

[A]

Was it because you hadn't seen it? Were you like, I gotta. I know this is real because it's me and I haven't seen it, so I'm gonna keep ringing the bell. Yeah, it was like that.

[B]

No, I didn't look at it. I. I almost got fired from one of the first movies I. I got called the Rapture, which was a really good independent movie in, like, 1990. And. And I got sent home with dailies to, like. I don't remember how it was phrased, but it was basically like, you know, take a look at how bad you are, or something like that, you know? And I invited my friend Dinah Kergo, who's a writer, and. And I said, can you watch these with me? Because I. I'm not going to be able to look at it objectively, and I just need to know if I should quit or what. I mean, no, really. I was like. It didn't feel good. Yeah. And we watched the dailies and we were both like, yeah, you're. You're fine. Is going to sound like damn. Damning was faint praise, but we're both like, you're. You're good, you're fine. You're. You know, you're. You're a legitimate actor. I mean, I. I buy it. Whatever. So even when I was starting to work, there was. There was a little pushback, I guess. And, you know, some of it.

[A]

Why didn't they fire you? Did you turn it up?

[B]

I don't know. I don't. I don't remember why they didn't find me. I don't know. Maybe it was too late.

[A]

If they fired you, who is the number one call? Who's the. If you don't get the job, they go to Ruffalo. Who do they go to? What are they doing? Your nemesis.

[B]

Oh, at that time, yeah, I had it in for Billy Baldwin.

[A]

Billy Baldwin was always scooping you.

[B]

Yeah, he was. You know, he's doing Backdraft. He was doing like these big moves. I was like, that guy.

[A]

But all right, all right. I wonder if your style.

[B]

Go ahead. My. My daughter's acting. She's 24, she's doing quite well. But. But, you know, like, like all actors, she'll. She'll sometimes say, you know, oh, that person, that person. I was like, don't worry about it because it's going to change another new person that you're going to hate.

[A]

Right, right. I'm not trying to put down Bobcat Goldthwaite. He's a great writer, director now, but sometimes when someone flares up in the comedy scene, people will go, bobcat Goldthwaite. Because there was a time. Again, Bob, full respect. Yeah, he's a pal. I love him. But when he was the number one stand up comedian. Yeah, don't forget, these things change. And I could name a dozen more that flare up. And when it's happening, it seems like this is what it is. And then when it goes away, I just had my friend Jonathan Kite on the show. He's like, I do impressions and it's so funny. If I do an impression of an actor who's not currently in a movie, people actually hate it. He's like, I'm doing Giamatti again because of the holdovers. But then if Giamatti takes a little break, I don't want to hear Giamatti. I was like, we're so fickle.

[B]

Can I hear your Giamatti?

[A]

My g. Oh, he does it.

[B]

Oh, he does it.

[A]

Well, well, well, isn't that good? Well, David Duchovny, great to see you. Yeah, I understand.

[B]

Yeah. He's like always at the end of his breath.

[A]

He's at the end of his breath and the end of his rope is what I thought. He's really all right.

[B]

Yeah, he's about to explode.

[A]

You know, I was almost. Mulder.

[B]

It's the grimace. The smile. And there's a grimace.

[C]

A better Help ad the holidays are a time of traditions, like making your great grandmother's secret pudding recipe or watching that favorite movie you've seen a thousand times. These moments keep us connected to family, to memories, to meaning. They remind us where we come from and what matters most. And for some, it's a good time to create new traditions. Incorporating therapy into your life can help you take time for yourself during what can be a joyful but sometimes hectic or lonely time of year. And by caring for yourself, you can show up more fully in the moments that matter. Maybe you'll find a new hot chocolate recipe to make with the kids or reserve every Saturday night for you, your book and some quiet. This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Visit betterhelp.com today for 10% off. What if the justice system wasn't just about punishment? What if it could support more productive lives, healthier families, and stronger communities?

[A]

We changed the quality of life in the neighborhood. Homicides dropped 44% in the first couple of years.

[C]

I'm your host, am Zamora, and I'll show you what a better justice system actually looks like, because it's already happening. Season two of When It Clicked from Lemonada Media is available December 10th. Wherever you get your podcasts, was there.

[A]

A famous almost molder?

[B]

No, I don't think so. There.

[A]

It wasn't like, almost Will Smith or something?

[B]

No, I don't think so. Yeah, there were just like, two of us, I think, that tested for that role, as I recall, and.

[A]

But you beat Billy. Billy Bowman. Billy.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Billy. Billy was really. He's really good and, you know, had his ups and downs and everything. But, you know, for some reason, I. I had it in my head like he was just. He was mowing my lawn. You know, I was like, he's getting everything.

[A]

Stop mowing my lawn. So, I'm sorry, I interrupted you. We were talking about how you arrived at your style and you were talking your daughter and. And how things change. That's how we went off on that tangent. Did you feel completion on the. What did you say? Dry, small? What? I don't know. I don't know what we're doing. But the less is more. I like, less is more.

[B]

Yeah, maybe less is more. I don't know. It's just the way I do it. And I'm not saying it's better than any other way or. Or worse than any other way or that I can't do any other style. I would need, need, you know, I would need, like, help and Support to, to, to come at it in a different way. And I'd love to, I'd love to try, you know, but I'm always going to try to find the truth. And if it starts to feel like just. I guess the way I put it is like if, if I feel like it's just a point of view that I'm seeing and not a character, like sometimes I feel like when you get big or when you go for things, it's like you're almost commenting on it, you know, and not just actually.

[A]

Yeah. Like a boardwalk caricature. You're exaggerating it to make it.

[B]

Yeah. So that the, the people who can't hear can hear. And, and that's legitimate, you know, because they hear stuff too. But yeah, just depends on what you think your audience is.

[A]

That's true. We need pop music. There's nothing wrong with it.

[B]

Yes, that's right.

[A]

Yeah, we need pop music. Pop music is actually beautiful people. We need hooks and, you know, maybe it'll get you into something else, something more subtle or whatever, but, like, who cares? I think that's really fun. Do you get the UFO question now that UFOs are everywhere?

[B]

I, I, I do, but I, I just have nothing interesting to say about it.

[A]

That's okay. People must. Well, then let me ask you this. How do you find being David Duchovny in, in the public sphere? Like, people asking you about UFOs, people want to say this or that. Do you enjoy this life that you've built, that you've worked so hard?

[B]

You know, it's funny because I think I, I spoke earlier about being misunderstood and how painful that is, how painful that is. And I guess initially, when I was misunderstood for my character, you know, which is a, it's an understandable thing, you know, because that's how people know me.

[A]

We're talking about Mulder.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And when you say misunderstood, what do you mean?

[B]

What do you like to think? That I'm older people.

[A]

People mistaking you for Mulder. Yeah, it's Robin Williams. Hey, Mork. He won a, he remember that story? He won an Academy Award. Next morning, someone yelled, hey, Mork. And he was like, oh, nothing's changed.

[B]

Right, right. So, but in, like, the heyday of it, and it's not just, you know, most people don't think that I'm Mulder, but they'll, they'll call me that or, or they'll ask me questions about UFOs or think that, that I'm interested in it. So at first, it was frustrating because the ego on me was like, I think I'm way more interesting than that guy. Ask me a question. Yeah, yeah. See what I think about things that I'm interested in, you know?

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

But that's just ego and. And immaturity. And eventually. Eventually I just come, you know, and it's not. It's not 100. It's not always, like, I'm not always great at it, but eventually I just come to 100 gratitude of like, holy. You know, like, it meant something to people. It still means something to people. They want to talk about it. Yeah. I. I spent a long time and a lot of energy and a lot of my life force doing it. Why not honor it and say, okay, let's. We can have that discussion. Yeah.

[A]

You know those Tom Cruise stories where people say, show me the money, and he'll just say it right back to them?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I always take such. I don't know. I do find it inspiring that he's not like, come on, man. You know what I mean? Like, look, there's a way to do that that's fake, that you're just kind of, like, hitting the ball back because that's the quickest way out. But I think he's doing it in really, like.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I was Jerry Maguire. Can you believe it? That was crazy. I think it's you and Travolta. I'm like, look, this person has actually found a way. And I'm not in. In the same sphere as you guys, but, like, if someone. If someone comes up to me now and they say something, and that happens to me, you know, most days, one time someone will say something. I really try to take a moment to look at them and say, that makes my day and. And convert it as I just saw you do it, into gratitude. Not a bump of ego. I'm cool, but like, holy, man. Life is hard. Life is long. Life is lonely. And, like, you aren't Mulder and you don't care about you.

[B]

I don't have to prove it to that person. You know?

[A]

That's right, isn't it? This is what I'm hearing you say, isn't it kind of magical and lovely that we had any exchange? We're here on the planet together, and that meant something to you. And that. I think the best thing you can get from that is gratitude.

[B]

And that's.

[A]

That's what I heard you say.

[B]

Yeah. And I. I run into it, like, if I. If I'm signing books or if I'm playing music you know, and. And, you know, I don't fool myself that people are interested in, at least at first in my books or my music, because they. They know me as an actor. They'll want me to. Like, I will get prickly, like, if they want me to sign this book that was created out of Californication called I forget it was. It's a fake novel written by Hank Moody, and they want me to sign it, and I'll get. I'll get a little like. But I didn't write it. I'm not sure. Like, do you know what's going on here? Like, I. I've never read it. I don't. I don't know what it is I'm signing.

[A]

That's your Larry Bird. Who is it? Dr. J. We struck. They're choking each other on the court.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Larry won't sign it. That's your chokes. There's a lot of things that people have a boundary, and I'm not your therapist, but I'm like, that's a fine boundary. You don't want to.

[B]

I didn't write it. It's like, don't. I won't sign somebody else's book either. Like, why would I sign somebody else's book? Yeah. And I do. It's so hard to even break even as a music act when you're touring these days, post Covet, and with gas prices up, it's really a difficult time to. As I say. And I just would like to break even. And so what I have to do is, like, meet and greets before a concert, you know, where I. I will sign and take a picture, and this is how I'm not making money. This is how we break even. You know? Otherwise, forget it.

[A]

This is the 30 seconds to Mars strategy. It's like, it's a Jared Leto meet and greet and a concert. I'm not putting down either group, your music or his music. Obviously, I'm not.

[B]

Oh. But to be fair, I mean, Pete, there are big bands now that are doing meet and greets. Of course it's bad. It's. It's. It's hard out there.

[A]

It is hard out there.

[B]

No.

[A]

When I see Weezer sharing a bill with Green Day, my first thought is. Actually, my first thought is, that sounds really fun. And. And I'm glad they're. They're getting to do it together. And. And then someone else was like, it's because even big bands, like, won't sell out a stadium anymore. Like, huge. Like, already rang the bell already.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Trophy. And it's like. So they, they pair them up and you don't have to tell me about selling tickets. I know exactly how it goes.

[B]

So I'll do these meet and greets and people have spent money and now they want a picture and they'll, sometimes they'll want to direct it. You know, they'll be like, can we go back to back, like with guns? You know, and stuff like that. Or yeah, you act like you're scared of an alien and stuff like that and you know, depends.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe you're not. But you know what, at least your Persona. Look at my big, dumb, open, goofy face. I feel like a nice flat duchovny. No. Is still kind of fun.

[B]

I, I've said like, no thanks. No thanks, but I like no thanks. Yeah, I, I, I, I, well here's, here's. I, I'll tell you quickly. Yeah, I, I hear this guy comes for a meet and greet and he's got a little Porsche like from Californication, and he's got a tiny little hammer and he wants me to break the headlight because in the show I always had a broken headlight on my Porsche. So this is like, and that's totally fine, you know, And I thought, oh, this is kind of what people do at these meet and greets is, you know, they're, and then I realized, you know, I'm playing in, in Eastern Europe and in countries where I've not been, they haven't seen me ever. And this is the time that, you know, they've grown up with my shows or whatever and it's kind of a, it's a moment, you know, and like I know that I'm tired or I've got a show to do later, but me, I, I should show up and be grateful for that. And that gets back to the addiction thing because I was in a, I was in a 12 step meeting and I had to go to the Golden Globes and it was right after all that notoriety about going away to rehab and I was scared of the red carpet because I, I didn't want people asking me questions like you and, and because I didn't know what to say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And certainly wasn't any of their business. And my kids were young and my, my, my, my wife was, was hurting, you know, and I was like, I'm not gonna do a five second right, Something like a blurb, whatever. I don't have a blurb on it. I'm in the, I'm in the middle of it. Yeah, I don't know what's going on. Bomb exploded. I'm standing in rubble, and now you're asking me how. Yeah, yeah. I was the rubble. How's the rebel doing?

[A]

Who dressed you, Rebel?

[B]

Still smoking. So I was kind of complaining or just expressing my confusion in this meeting about. Well, I don't know. I don't know how to be, because I. I knew how to be before that. I knew how to. I knew how to do the thing. I knew how to do the carpet. I knew how to make the joke. I knew how to be easy. I knew how to be winning. I knew how to do it, and all of a sudden, I didn't know how to do it. And this guy goes, why don't you just be grateful that you're there? I was like, oh, I can try that. Never tried gratitude before. Wow. So what I did was. I was like, okay, that's my master plan. It's. It's all I'm gonna do. Like, I'm only gonna be grateful. So I get, like, Entertainment Tonight or whatever, you know, one of those silly shows, and say, oh, David, tough year. Tough year. Yeah. How's. How's. How's the family? How's it. How's. How's. Taya, your face? And I. And I go, hey, thank you for asking. I'm really. It's really nice that you care. And I. I really appreciate your concern. It's not something I'm talking about right now, but I really am. I'm really so thankful that you. That you asked. And I watched this guy's face go from, like, am I poking a bear? To, I'm a really good person. I'm an excellent person.

[A]

Wait, you did fun. That's Fawn. Fight. Fight. Like, freeze, Fawn. You Fawn.

[B]

The. I just. I just gratituded him. And that it was also true, you know, in a perverse way, there was care.

[A]

You know, you found the care. Yeah. I love that you shared that. And that strategy of reframing even something that is an attack.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

It's worse than intrusive. It.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's. You know, they're looking for.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Money, blood for money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like this. Little more eyeballs, more ads, more money right off your hurt. But to. To find what's behind, I guess, the humanity behind it. And you're. This is what you did. You imposed humanity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You pushed their humanity back into them.

[B]

And you can always do that. You can always do that in any situation. And I think it's good for me to Remind myself that it's an option. Yeah, it's always a good option.

[A]

I completely agree.

[B]

I don't think I've ever gone. I wish I had been so grateful.

[A]

No. And they say you can't feel afraid and grateful at the same time. You know, it's funny with that what's next? Disease that we all have, I think all. Maybe all people I don't know, but certainly all creatives that I know are kind of thinking about the next thing. And one of the things, speaking of gratitude that I do in the morning is a gratitude practice where you think of three moments for one minute each from your life that you can be grateful for. And it's better to me, it's better than writing it down. You put on some music and you just do it. And here's the hope that I'm trying to share with you, because even if you weren't enjoying it when you did it, which is certainly the case for me, when I was on the set of shows I made, you can go back and relive it.

[B]

It. Yeah.

[A]

From this perspective and go like, oh, my God, it's you. And, and you're doing Californication. And, oh, we. It doesn't even have to be a big moment. In fact, it often isn't. It's not like I nailed that take or did that big moment or there was a big star. Who cares? You were just there.

[B]

That's the funny. That's the funny thing is, like, if, If I'm watching by mistake, I don't do it on purpose. If I. If I'm flipping channels and I, I, I see X Files come on. Usually X Files, because Californication doesn't really play like X Files does. But. And, And a show will come on that I don't remember shooting, but I'll remember what I had for lunch that day on set. Or, you know, I'll remember that week. I don't remember the plot. I can't. I can't. Like, how did I memorize those lines? I don't remember those. Those lines are just foreign to me. But I'll have, like, little flashes of just human laughter, connection, friends that I was hanging out with, what I was doing around that time in my life, even very specifically, almost to that episode that I don't remember. But I remember shooting it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As you say. And the process of it. And you talked about, like, what. What next? Ism. Or whatever you call it. What's next isn't what next is these.

[A]

That's what you called It. I heard you call that on your Vanity Fair thing.

[B]

Oh, I did, yeah.

[A]

You call. I have something called what's Next?

[B]

I'm so, so.

[A]

You're great.

[B]

I'm grateful for that. I. I would say that I don't have. I still have a little bit, but I'm really aware that the only thing that cuts deeply is the process. You know, like, I can be proud of the finished product. Sure. That's a nice feeling. But the process, the. The. All the, you know, we're all just trying to make the show or the movie or the whatever together. We're just doing our best, trying to do this thing. And there's just something beautiful about that process and the flow sometimes. Oh, well, yeah. There was one scene that just felt like it was from God, you know, like. Like God just, like, was with me.

[A]

Yes. Sorry. Keep going.

[B]

Yeah, that's it. And so it's just really. It's really just. I guess it's almost a cliche now, but just really embracing that the. All of life is. Is just process and not. And not result.

[A]

I completely agree. And that's what I couldn't wait to tell you. It's written on. A lot of things are written on my mirror. One of them is everything is an excuse to love. Which sounds like a cliche, but when you get.

[B]

Doesn't sound like a cliche to me, I'm glad.

[A]

I'm worried that the word love is ruined. Love, to me is the recognition that you and I have a shared being, that in our essence, we're exactly the same. And when human beings struggle in the same direction, there's. There's great stories of. They're not great in every way. But, you know, World War II London is being bombed. And if you interview the people that lived there at that time, they were like, right now? What's that?

[B]

I'm in London right now.

[A]

Are you really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, you know, you go and see that. The roundabouts with the lions, and there's still holes in them. You know, you see the bombs that drop. The people at that time said it was the happiest time of their life. And when they look at that psychologically, they're like human beings struggling in the same direction. Reach a level of fulfillment that nothing else can do. And I know it's. It's crazy.

[B]

Look, I'll.

[A]

I'll equate or. Or liken that to a lot of things. Not just acting, but any project. It could be a high school project, a science project. It doesn't matter how.

[B]

How Fleeting for Government.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

Look at Waiting for Government.

[A]

That's exactly what Waiting for Government is about.

[B]

Yeah. They have the love.

[A]

That's right. And you did.

[B]

Or Best in Show. All his movies are about.

[A]

And you did Larry Sanders and. And Gary when he. Gary Shandling when he did the pod. I had heard him say it before, though. He said that show was about people who love each other. But show business gets in the way. And I would go farther and say this podcast is an excuse to love each other. This, this, this day, the every moment is just an excuse to find some connection. And that's why it's so offensive when we blow that and actually make more derisiveness or. Or whatever. Or more division.

[B]

Yeah, I. I like the phrase. I like the I like excuse in the phrase. That's what I. That's why I like. Because that surprises me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's what makes it not a cliche to me.

[A]

Oh, I'm so glad. Yeah. No, it's like. It's what we were saying about performing too. It's an excuse to hang out in this energy. You thought you came to hear my new material. We're actually trying to create a little. A little bubble together.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You mentioned at the top, we always end the show by talking a little bit about spirituality. I'm getting the sense that you're interested in that and have some take on it. It. So I couldn't be more interested is all I'll say. If there have been things that you found. Wait a minute. You are kind of like a Richard Gere type. Are you a Buddhist?

[B]

Well, you know, my. You know, my name means the Hovnia means spiritual. Really actually means. Is spirit or ghost or teacher or rabbi, as my grandmother would say. And ovnia is like an adjectival ending, like spiritual or ghost like. Or rabbi like.

[A]

Wow. So it's right there in your name.

[B]

It's in my name. I can't hide from it. Am I spiritual? Yeah, I'm not. I. I'm not part of any group or. Or named thing. But that's. It's all we've been talking about.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

That's. That's all we've been talking about. And that's. When you. When you talk about love, that. That's the synonym for God. I mean, that's the most used synonym for God. God is love. I mean, it's the same thing. And. Or, you know, the Buddhists have a really interesting relationship to it because, you know, attachment and detachment. How can you. How can you be attached to something that's going to die? It's so painful. That's why life is suffering, you know. That's why they acknowledge that in the first noble truth. Life is suffering. Well, because we're, we're these infinite beings doomed to a finite existence. Very painful, very heartbreaking if you think about it too much, which you do on some level all the time. And so it's this constant struggle between attachment and detachment. And with acting and with making art, you can attach so intensely to something and you know you're going to detach eventually. You know, you know the truth that it's just a, a fleeting attachment to this job or this joke or this book or this song or this performance. But the beauty of it is, is really attaching to it. Even so. Even so. Right. Even so you go into the flow and you give yourself up to it. Even so, you, you know it's going to break your heart when you have to leave it it, you know, when you detach from it.

[A]

So you risk love. Yeah. That's why we love underdog stories, because we're all essentially underdogs. It's. It's maybe not higher.

[B]

It's what Bucky Den is about when he says, you know, I got scared of losing you and I couldn't attach again.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because I, I realized that being attached to you was too painful. Yeah. That it would kill me if you died. Yep. And that's. We're like that too. You know, we have to, to. We have to mature past that point where we're too scared to attach, you know, because it is going to be painful.

[A]

I agree. I, I've actually had moments. I don't know if I can articulate it now, but I've had moments of interconnected feeling. Like a, like a epiphany moment where I'm like, oh my God, Ketamine.

[B]

It's ketamine, isn't it?

[A]

Well, yeah, yeah. This one wasn't ketamine, but it's similar to ketamine. And when it happens and you're just in the back of a car, that's where I was. I was, I think I was being driven somewhere and just looking out the window and I thought like, oh my God. The most hate filled people are, are too scared to love. If there's a group that's being murdered or, or oppressed you other them and that's horrible. And then I was like, but really under, underneath it, like you on the red carpet, there's love. There's a secret love. That it's too painful for you to risk. That's my brother. That or one level further. That's me. That's not. That's not another. So your shadow. What's that?

[B]

It's my shadow. That's. That's the me that. That I. That I'm not going to face or that I. I wish out.

[A]

That's right. And. And then as long you give them another name, you make all these excuses, a different story. And then it's okay that they're dying or they're being oppressed or they're this or they're that. And. And Ram Dass talks about how costly it is to love. He says the whole point is to keep your heart open in hell. And I. That's a very interesting idea. And that's sort of what we're here to do. You could bring Jesus into it. It's like, look at what they did to Jesus. And the whole thing is keeping his heart open in hell is. Again, Richard Rohr says the first forgiveness. We talk all about the forgiveness of Christianity, because the first forgiveness is to forgive. Reality is. Is to forgive. Just look at the nightmare.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then to find your. You could say your true self in the midst of that nightmare. Because of the nightmare, you might find your true self.

[B]

How do you think Jesus got those abs?

[A]

I mean, carpentry was actually different back then.

[B]

It was the manual labor, huh?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Bringing that hammer.

[A]

I had a youth pastor that was like. It was more like iron work because he wanted to make Jesus cooler.

[B]

And I was like, all right, buddy, flash, dance. He was like a welder.

[A]

I mean, sexy Jesus. We all have to make our peace with sexy Jesus.

[B]

It brings people into the pews. Are you kidding?

[A]

You gotta give the people what they want.

[B]

Yeah. It's rock and roll. I mean, son of. Oh, my God. They had. They had electric music. They had the organ. That was.

[A]

That was a party. I mean, you're absolutely right.

[B]

Can you imagine being just a regular person? You've never heard of electric guitar. You've never heard of a big drum set? You walk into a church and they hit you with that organ.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're. See God.

[A]

That's right. That's right.

[B]

They hit you with the organ. They. They blow incense in your face. They give you a little wine. They give you a little snack. Yeah. Of course you're going to come back.

[A]

And if you read the Immortality Key by my pal Brian Morescu, that he's hinting that the wine might have been a little. Back in the day, original the original Eucharist might have been like ketamine might have been like, oh, really?

[B]

They dosed it. He.

[A]

He thought. He makes a very deeply academic. Brian's never done a psychedelic in his life. He's. And I say this with all love and respect, he's exactly who you want to write this book. He's. He's pretty square.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's like a real life Indiana Jones and he's like, there's a Dionysian thing going on here. And anybody that read the New Testament at that time would have known they were talking about psychedelics.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Eleusis the Greek. The. The continuation. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The.

[A]

The die before you die.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Have you done psychedelics?

[B]

Huh? Yeah, I haven't done the new. I haven't done the ketamine. I haven't done ayahuasca. But back in the day, I did my. I tripped.

[A]

Yeah. Was that impact. Did that have an impact? This is a leading question. I'm curious if it informed your spirit.

[B]

You get that knowledge, you know, you get the knowledge that we're all one and that. And I remember specifically I was tripping with my buddy and we were walking down in New York and.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah. And I started, like, responding to other people's conversations because I was convinced that we were all in one conversation, you know.

[A]

Yes, that is psychedelics.

[B]

In.

[A]

In one line. That's exactly what it is.

[B]

All the walls came down. I realized we were just talking. Everybody was talking to each other. You know, it was so loud, I could just hear us like chattering monkeys in the jungle. We were just chattering, chattering because we were terrified and we just wanted to keep each other company. We're not going to die or get hurt. And I was just like, oh, I'll talk to you for a minute. And then, oh, I heard a word over here I want to respond to. And. And it's true, embarrassing, but, you know, just holding on to those revelations of the hard part.

[A]

That's right. Leaving church, but keeping church in your heart. Yeah, that's the. That's the whole game. You reminded me. I was in Amsterdam and I took some mushrooms and there were these. Is there a funnier language to hear other than Dutch when you're tripping? It was so funny to me. And these two young women were having a picnic and I was lying on the grass next to them, and they're kind of, you know, I'm not going to do an impression of Dutch, but they're having this sort of.

[B]

You don't want them Coming for you.

[A]

No, it's not the Dutch. I'm not getting taken down for a silly Dutch attempt. But it. It sounded very funny to me because I was like, wow, there's another language. That's so crazy, because separation seems so funny. And they're unpacking their lunch, and I. And I remember thinking, these women have no idea that I'm at the bottom of their cooler. Like, it's me. They're gonna. They're moving the bagels and the bananas, and they're gonna find me laying at the bottom of the cooler. And even though that's absurd, it was like, I am your lunch, and I am you, and I'm your language. And.

[B]

And. And you're Jesus. I am the. The body and the blood.

[A]

Exactly. You're what?

[B]

You're Jesus.

[A]

There's a great Ramana Maharshi quote where he's dying, and they. And I think about it all the time. And they go, don't leave us. His devotees are like, don't leave us. And he says, don't be silly. Where could I go? And that's exactly right. I. I don't think you'll find a more refined summation of it. Where. Where. Like, I don't know if there's a chance this might be interesting to you, but I think the whole thing is when you have a thought and then it goes away from where did it come and where did it go? And you notice that there's a consistent field, like the screen in a movie. This is Rupert Spira. Things appear on the screen and then they disappear. But what remained was the screen. And he would say, we are like conscious screens watching ourselves. And that's great. Fine, fun thought experiment. But when you're having that hard day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or you're on a long road trip and you're bored, and you start going, like, let's ex. Let's experientially investigate if that's real. I don't think there's a better game in town than to just step away from David and step into the. The original name of God. I am just. What do you mean when you say I.

[B]

Right. I. I've had the experience with writing songs. Just like I know that there's a song in this room right now, I'm going to be too lazy to go write it. I'm not going to pick up my guitar and write it. But I know every time I pick up my guitar, I can open myself up to a song and it's going to be different. If I tried today, or if I tried tomorrow or the next day. And I'm not making any great claims for my songs. They're not coming from God or whatever, but they are coming from a moment you know is not ever going to exist again.

[A]

And what else? What a good name for God. A moment that's never going to exist again. I mean, like, this reminds me of the Joan of Arc quote. They say you say you talk to God but you talk to him in your head. And Joan of Arc said, where else would I talk to him? And that's a person to me that understands the shared nature of consciousness. Meaning there's only one. I am. There's only one. There's only one light. And we're all. Sometimes, you know when somebody. Some. Some Our dog died and I'm explaining it to my daughter. It's like. It's like the ocean is the great life and we're all just cups of water. And then you pour it back. We're all. Or an image that I actually did have on ketamine was an octopus. And he's doing a puppet show for himself. But here's the key. He's a joyful octopus. He's smiling thing. It's for his. You said we chatter. You know how science doesn't know why birds do the pre dawn chorus? Like I like getting up early in the morning and I hear the birds starting to chirp because the sun's gonna come up and they thought it was mating. It turns out it's not mating. There's no reason for it. And I was like. Or it's the same thing. We chirp because we're here just being grateful. Yes. And I'm just letting you know. I love when you said we've been talking about God the whole time. Because that's exactly what this.

[B]

What.

[A]

What I'm going for in my life is. We don't have to talk about these things directly. We don't have to say I love you, I see you. It's wonderful to share this moment with you. That's just what's happening. We're singing before the sun comes up because what's the alternative?

[B]

Sorry. I'm good.

[A]

I'm getting all. Now I'm.

[B]

Clearly you don't have any peacocks in your neighborhood. Because you'd want to kill them. Them. You'd want to kill them.

[A]

No peacocks. No peacocks. Why are you in London? And then we'll get you out of here.

[B]

You've been shooting an Amazon show called Malice. I got another two weeks here and then I'm actually going to go to Greece to finish it up. And I've never been to Greece, so I'm really looking forward to that. I. It's the cradle of a Western civilization and I couldn't be happier to, to go check it out for the first time in my life.

[A]

It'd be a great time to read them the Immortality key. It's a, it would be a great, like, Brian Mararescue, the Immortality key, because you'll be able to go. It says if you die before you die, you won't die when you die. Is, is the whole thing. And you could go to the temple where they, where it says that.

[B]

And now let me ask you that a couple times. There's been a thumbs up on the screen.

[A]

Yeah, that's a mistake.

[B]

Look. What is that?

[A]

Oh, it's just, it's a zoom. It's a zoom thing. I thought it was Robin being like.

[B]

I love that Robin Leventhal.

[A]

I thought it wasn't Robin Leventhal. It wasn't Robin.

[B]

Because here's what I thought. It's only happening when Pete's talking. I don't like it so much.

[A]

Well, do a thumbs up. Yeah. Back it up a little bit. Get it in frame.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

It must be my setting. Don't do that too much. Let's, let's, let's get you out of here. The, the last question that I love to ask and I really have enjoyed this very, very much. Thank you.

[B]

Bye. Against my, my will again, this.

[A]

You were coerced.

[B]

Not coerced. It's just Bucky Dent. You know, it's a small movie. There's. There's no money behind pna, so it's just like I've got to go everywhere I can go and, and, and talk and like, this is the form now. And it's intense. I mean, like, you're good at what you do and we had an intense conversation. It's a lot. Not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not something.

[A]

It's not nothing.

[B]

My, my aim is to sell my movie. I want people to see it. That's what I want more than anything. Right. That's kind of. That's kind of because we're just having a conversation, but underneath it is like I'm trying to do right by something that I love as well. So. Yeah, a little split. It's a little split.

[A]

No, you're, you're right to call it out. It just is. It's kind of what's happening, I suppose. But for what it's Worth, you seem like a very self assured person. I thought the movie was wonderful and I was very happy for you that it came together. I did have one. Do you want a bucky dent? Question was, I was like, are you Danny? Are you the dab.

[B]

Oh, I'm more the, I'm more the sun. I mean I actually, I wrote it a while ago. Yeah. And I was, I wrote it for myself to play the sun. But then I just got too old and I never thought about playing the dad. And the dad is nothing like my dad. I realized the dad's more like my mom. I think I'm playing my mom in that movie.

[A]

Wow, you're back to, you know, gender swapping, your first role.

[B]

That's right. Yeah.

[A]

And here you are. Well, I, I, you can't.

[B]

What was your last question?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, sorry, I was just going to call the movie again. I just thought it was wonderful and people should definitely go check it out. My last question is, can you think of a time in your life when you laughed really, really, really, really hard?

[B]

Oh God.

[A]

And it doesn't have to be a good story, but if tears are streaming down your face or you're falling to the ground, maybe you're a kid, maybe someone farted. Maybe it's in a situation where you're not supposed to laugh it.

[B]

Well, it's, it's that fart scene in the movie.

[A]

No way.

[B]

It really is because, well, there's two parts to it. When, when we were editing it, I had this wonderful editor named Jamie Nelson and she was, she's such a genius. And, but she was like, ah, you know, fart scenes. And I don't know, we'll screen it, you know, but I, I feel like you're going to want to cut it. And, and I was like, it's just because we haven't found the right farts. You know, we've really got. Because the farts aren't, they weren't killing me yet. Yeah. And so I have a Tesla and do you know the Tesla?

[A]

Oh yeah. My daughter loves the fart cards.

[B]

Right. So I was like, my car farts are really good. So we went out with my phone, I recorded the Tesla farts on my phone and we put it in the movie and then I cried and then we went to, we went, which one was it?

[A]

Do you remember?

[B]

There's a few of them.

[A]

You used a couple of them. Those are the Tesla farts.

[B]

They're all Tesla farts.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And, and, and I, I, we get to the screening and, and that scene plays and it's just huge laughter. Like, you don't even hear the farts because people are laughing so hard. And Jamie turned to me and she goes, I guess it stays in. I was like, yeah, yeah. And I, I'm stupid. I mean, I fart stuff. I'll cry. I'll cry at that most times. And my son, he loves that scene. He's 21 now, but he's like, can you just send me that scene? He just wants to watch the scene.

[A]

Oh, I'm happy for you, man. Your biggest laugh is in the movie that you're. You're out sharing with the world. Happy for you.

[B]

And it's just farts.

[A]

And it's just farts. It's okay. There's a lot of grab.

[B]

We all share them.

[A]

You know, the naked hug really got me. Thank you so much for doing this, David. You're. You're a real. It seems pandering to say mensch, but you're a mensch and I enjoy you.

[B]

Well, I like. I. I appreciate that terminology very much. I will fawn it back to you. Gratitude.

[A]

Thank you very much. We have the guests say keep it crispy. It's how we have a sense of closure here at the end. Would you grace us with the keep it crispy, Pete?

[B]

Keep it crispy. You keep it crispy. No, you keep it crispy.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Or keeping it crispy. That's what you're doing. What does that mean? What did I just say?

[A]

We've been keeping it crispy this whole time. This. This has been crisp.

[B]

Crisp. We kept it crispy. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Deep, fun, open, honest, spacious, kind, hopefully. Yeah, yeah. This is crisp all right.

[B]

Thanks, man. Thank you.

[C]

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple podcasts and hit subscribe. Make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. Are you looking for ways to make.

[B]

Your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

[C]

That's me. Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and.

[B]

Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.