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- [00:00]
David Duchovny
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- [00:37]
Amy Mann
Hey, it's me, Steve Burns. And I'm so glad you're here because you and I go way back, right?
- [00:43]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [00:44]
Amy Mann
And look at us now, like we're all grown up. We've got this new podcast where we talk about all this grown up stuff and there's special guests like Jamie Lee Curtis and Bill Nye, but for the most part, it's about you. I mean, it's always been about you. From Lemonada Media Alive with Steve burns is coming September 17th. Wherever you get your podcasts or you can watch every episode on YouTube.
- [01:14]
David Duchovny
Hi, I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Amy Mann is one of the great songwriters of our time, or anytime. She's released 10 studio albums as a solo artist over the course of four decades. Her music is melodic, thoughtful, clever, and yet it explores dark themes like depression and anxiety. We get into the many challenges she's battled through, continues to battle through, including dealing with physical health problems and anxiety, depression, PTSD, and traumatic events from her childhood. I appreciate Amy being so forthcoming and vulnerable and sharing what it's like to keep moving forward and stay creative and stay awake and conscious and to heal and to try to heal and of course, to keep creating through successes and through failures. Here's our conversation. Amy, thanks so much for doing this.
- [02:16]
Amy Mann
My pleasure.
- [02:17]
David Duchovny
I gotta say, I'm truly an admirer of yours, have been for many, many years. And I just think you're such an amazing songwriter and such an amazing poet and it's really, it's a lot. It's a lot. I mean, I've been driving around with your songs all week and I find that my hands grip the wheel really tight during a lot of your songs and I'm not even aware of it. You know, there's like such tension.
- [02:47]
Amy Mann
It feels like that I'm causing anxiety where it's like you're. Your subconscious is anxious. My topics are making you anxious.
- [02:55]
David Duchovny
It's barely, it's barely subconscious. It's like. It's conscious adjacent. I don't know what to call it.
- [03:03]
Amy Mann
But, yeah, conscious adjacent.
- [03:06]
David Duchovny
You bring up your songs, they chart movement. I mean, I really like songs that do that, even if it's just you make a slight vocal change, in a word, in the third chorus or whatever, sometime. But there's always. Your songs are like plays to me. There are acts in them, and they go from a thesis to an antithesis to a synthesis in many ways, to me. And that's kind of the tension that I'm feeling throughout the song is like, how's this gonna resolve?
- [03:35]
Amy Mann
Oh, interesting. I mean, that's the intention, you know, like writing a song to me, there is a progression of, you know, stating what's going on in the first verse and, like, how does that get summed up in the chorus? And continuing the idea or taking a left turn in the second verse? Like, I do feel. I do try to have movement through the song and have it wind up in a different place. Like, it's kind of an arc. It's not necessarily a real narrative arc, but it's supposed to. It is supposed to go in different places.
- [04:12]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Well, I guess you mentioned the word consciousness. I think it's like an arc of consciousness in a way. If it's not like. It's not a resolution, it's not a musical resolution. But there's been a movement. And that. That, to me, is. Is what it doesn't. It doesn't end at that point. That's what I think. I'm gripping the wheel because it's just. It's continuing on in a new form. It's not like that's the end of the story. It's the end of the song is not the end.
- [04:36]
Amy Mann
Right. Well, thank you very much. That's really. It's nice to hear because that. That is kind of exactly what I'm trying to do.
- [04:43]
David Duchovny
Well, good job. Mission accomplished. But the. And again, where I. Where I want to start, there's so many places that I'd like to talk to you about, but you've commented that, you know, growing as a woman in the 60s and 70s would. Would give anybody PTSD or drive anybody crazy. And I'm just very interested, so I'm just wondering, of the feelings back then as you were making your own way, because obviously you found your own way. But it was not. It was not immediate. You know, it was very much a lifelong journey for you. And the. The amount of. Kind of anxiety and pain that must have entailed is intense to Me, intense to think about. And I'm wondering how it appeared to you, talking about unconscious, preconscious, conscious adjacent, whatever, you know, you're 16, 17 years old. What am I. What am I going to do with my life? I'm being told I can't do these things or I can't do these things. Take me through a little bit of the, the growth and, and the, and the limitations that were enforced upon you or that you felt, you know, the false limitations that you felt at that point.
- [05:54]
Amy Mann
Well, you know, I think that at the time I grew up, I was born in 1960 and I had three brothers and all of my interests were climbing rocks, climbing trees. I loved football, I loved sports, I loved, you know, I was into Batman and Superman. I wanted to, like, go scuba diving someday or learn how to ski. Like, all of those things sounded really fun. And it was just like a progression of, no, you can't do that. Why? Because you're a girl. Well, why? Because girls don't do that. But why? You know, like, so it was this circular logic. You can't do that. You're a girl. Girls don't want to do that. So that's why you can't do it. And, and that just, you know, I never internally bought it, but at the same time, when you are told that over and over, even just dumb stuff like wanting to get a pair of like, Converse All Stars, which were just like, arguably cool, I'm actually.
- [07:00]
David Duchovny
That's your birth. That's your birthright, I have to say. That's your birthright.
- [07:03]
Amy Mann
And you're like, no, girls can't wear, like, girls can't wear a fucking tennis shoe. So, like, I knew that it was maddening, but also it was what, like, you literally didn't get the shoe. Like, you didn't get to do the thing. And one of the things that I wanted to do was play bass. And because I had gotten this book about, you know, how to be in a band, and I was like, ooh, you know, music and electric guitars and. And I saw the bass. There was just something. I was like, ooh, like these four lower strings, you know, like, there was just something about it that was very intriguing. And I said stupidly in front of my family that I wanted to learn how to play the bass. And they literally laughed at me. Like, girls don't play the bass. And ha ha ha. And so, like, on some level you can think, well, that sort of doesn't make sense. But you're also like, do they know, like some secret about women that makes it unable. Like, it seemed ridiculous, but also that was like, the accepted truth. That was like, the truth of the land that women just could not play guitar or bass, and that was the end of it. So then you're, like, completely in imposter syndrome. And I had a bass teacher who was just like, okay, what do you want to learn? Here's how to, you know, when you get a chord chart. Here's how to do, you know, do, do, do, you know, like, walk through the change. I wanted to learn how to read music. So we played Bach cello duets in the, you know, bass clef. And. And, you know, he was just like, what do you want to learn? He didn't. I didn't get any of that. Like, oh, well, as a woman, you get. You know, it's like you're another bass player. And. And honestly, like, my instinct was right. Like, I. I am a good bass player, and I have really good time. Like, it is. It is like, I love playing bass. I'm good at it. It's. You know, I don't really do it live because I. I usually play acous, and I have such a great bass player in my band, but. But, like, my instinct about that was dead on. And. But it is like, you have to overcome this internal thing of if I make a mistake, or people sitting there going, oh, it's because she's a girl. Which is devastating. Like, you don't even get to be a human making a mistake. It has to be because you're a girl. That's, you know, every mistake is a girl mistake.
- [09:31]
David Duchovny
That's just awful.
- [09:34]
Amy Mann
Yeah. Oh, to live in the time of, like, you can be anything you want. I'm like, oh, my God. Nobody ever said that to me.
- [09:42]
David Duchovny
You went to college for a few months, right?
- [09:45]
Amy Mann
Yeah, I went to a place called Berklee College of Music in Boston, and that was, at the time, a jazz school. And I didn't know anything about music at all, let alone jazz. But the thing I really liked about Berkeley is you could just go there. You didn't have to audition and just learn at your own pace. So if you worked really hard, you could. You could learn more. I mean, it was kind of like a trade school in a way. And honestly, like, that's probably. I had this vague idea that maybe if I learned about music, it would show me if I had any talents or not, because I, you know, I could play a couple of songs on acoustic guitar, a couple of Neil Young songs or something. But. But I realized at Berkeley you know, for me, if I learning about sort of simple, basic music theory structure was very helpful. And that practicing, you know, ear training that, you know, you could sort of practice and go, oh, I can hear that that chord is a five chord. And then it's going, you know, it's very rudimentary. Like, I still. I can't like really transcribe. Like, my friends could do it. But it was just like a revelation to realize that with music, as with other things, you can practice it and get better.
- [11:01]
David Duchovny
Do you write with the bass? Because I was interested when I started to make little music that, you know, when you sing, you often. You often want to hear the bass more than you want to hear the. The guitar chords, you know, and. And so I think melodically, I think it makes sense that you would have been kind of moving towards bass, aside from rhythmically.
- [11:20]
Amy Mann
In my first band, which was called Till Tuesday, we kind of started out as like, you know, doing sort of a dance funk thing, you know, Like, I was very influenced by chic, you know, Badoon do Boom. Yes, sir, you know, like the finger popping stuff. So I would write on bass in that band and then, you know, and then later I think that, you know, the things, the stuff I listened to when I was a kid, like, you know, Dylan and Neil Young, I think that that really kind of stuck further in. So then I. Writing on acoustic guitar and sometimes I write on piano now just to get myself out of the patterns that I invariably go to on guitar.
- [12:01]
David Duchovny
Right. Do you think you had any literary lyrical influences when you were starting out, or have you always been a reader? Has that been an influence or a poetry reader of any kind?
- [12:13]
Amy Mann
I have always been a reader. Not necessarily poetry, but just Fitzgerald is my favorite because there's just a relationship with language and metaphor that is so interesting. And I can read things over and over just to like sit in the language. And I have that with Raymond Chandler, too. It's that I'm rereading Raymond Chandler just like. In fact, I just wrote a song that was inspired by a line in Farewell, My Lovely, where, I mean, it's just like a simple line. But I was so in awe of this. He gets picked up in a car and they're driving out to Santa Monica and he says they turned all the lights green for him. And I was like, oh, that's such a great image. And so I used sort of a variation of that to start a song because I love the idea of imbuing inanimate objects with meaning because you can sort of offset. It's a way to talk about your feelings without saying, this is how I feel. So, you know, the line is like driving down, all the lights were green, you know, so it's the lights that are optimistic, right? It's the lights that are. Everything's going right. And it's embodied in this inanimate object. And I love that because it also is what people do. Seeing their mood reflected or projecting their mood out on the outside world.
- [13:54]
David Duchovny
Well, it's interesting that you come up with a green light because that's of course, the famous Fitzgerald image. Daisy's green light as well.
- [14:03]
Amy Mann
I don't know. He configures his sentences in a way where you're like, how is he getting away with that? Like, I feel like anybody else doing that, it just. It wouldn't work.
- [14:14]
David Duchovny
I could say the same thing about your use of language in your songs. I mean, to the like, deathly. I mean, like, that's. Who's. Who's gonna use that word. And. And I can hear you in that song, you know, when you turn it into. Definitely. I can just. I almost hear like. I feel like that was a late addition. It was, yeah, yeah. I'm like, ah, she heard that.
- [14:38]
Amy Mann
Yeah.
- [14:38]
David Duchovny
And then she. But which is. That's just very exciting to me as a listener to hear you thinking through a song as well. You know, obviously it's written when you're recording it, but I. I feel like. I feel like often. And I. I don't have. I didn't like pull everything up to. To quiz you on it, but I feel like you are alive to yourself, you know, and that's something that. That reads in the songs and that I feel in the songs that you're. Forget about, you know, what I said in the beginning is like you kind of change or the songs change, but I think you're alive to changing inspiration, you know, And I feel like. I feel like that's what makes you a great songwriter and a great consciousness in. In songwriting. Because when I was in school, like, they. They said, oh, Shakespeare is the first playwright to ch. To show characters change in real time. Whereas before that, you know, you had characters named Vice, Lust. Yeah, you know, they were. They were. You were like a one trick pony, like, as a character in a play. And Shakespeare using the soliloquy actually showed characters thinking and changing themselves. That's what I'm trying to say. It's like, I can see that in you, that you change yourself. You change the way you're thinking about something over the course of the song. And I don't have an example.
- [15:59]
Amy Mann
I mean, I agree with you. And just, like, even a step further, the very process of writing a song is a transformative experience because it's like, there's something that is exciting, and I don't. You know, like, you start in a certain mood, and you're like, okay, what is this mood? What chords kind of sound like this mood? What story can I tell that fits these chords? And what melody fits these chords? And what melody fits the story? So that the story also sounds like, you know, the mood and then you're telling the story and then you're inside it, and at the end of it, you don't feel that way anymore. You know, you've. I mean, not that the song has to have sort of a happy ending, but the happy ending is. That is exactly how I felt. That is the exact feeling. I have succeeded and documenting this complicated feeling, you know, with somebody I'm angry at, and yet I feel a lot of love for, you know, like, whatever the complicated feeling is. This has documented it. And, I mean, there is even, like, kind of a fun. Like, it leaves you with, like, a positive hangover. Like, a fun hangover. Even when you're, like. When it's written a little out of spite of, like. I have nailed my description of what an asshole you are. Or, like, what?
- [17:40]
David Duchovny
Well, yeah, I mean, you're.
- [17:41]
Amy Mann
I mean, spite is an underrated motivator for.
- [17:45]
David Duchovny
I think. I think. I think. I think for you, it has. It has served you really well, you know, and like, in whatever. That was an album that I. That I played over and over again. And I should have known.
- [17:59]
Amy Mann
Yeah.
- [18:01]
David Duchovny
In which. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that the background vocals are saying dot, dot, dot.
- [18:08]
Amy Mann
Yeah.
- [18:09]
David Duchovny
How literary. How literary is that?
- [18:13]
Amy Mann
It's even dumber than that, because it's not dumb. I love it.
- [18:17]
David Duchovny
I was like. I was listening to it the other day. I was like, is that. I think it's dot, dot, dot, she's saying there.
- [18:21]
Amy Mann
So me and the producer, John Bryan, used to listen to. I don't know if. Do you know who Alan Sherman is? He was like a parody songwriter.
- [18:31]
David Duchovny
Hello, mother. Hello, father. Here I am from camp Grenada. That stuff.
- [18:35]
Amy Mann
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he. On one of his records is a song that is Night, Night and Day by Cole Porter with punctuation. And so he was like, night and day, comma, da, da, da, da, da, dot, and dot, dot, dot was one of the things he did. And we were like, we love that. So that's. We put that in.
- [18:54]
David Duchovny
Ah, I love that song. There's a, there's a, there's a couple of spiteful songs on that, on that album, I think that are. Well, I mean, Dylan was also a good spiteful.
- [19:04]
Amy Mann
Oh my God, he was the best spite writer. Cause he's so cutting. I think, like mine, you know, a lot of mine are more like my feelings are hurt, but I don't know, like, sometimes if it's real spite, I
- [19:17]
David Duchovny
think you're letting yourself off a little easier.
- [19:18]
Amy Mann
By the end of the spite, you're just making yourself laugh so, like, you don't feel any spite anymore.
- [19:33]
David Duchovny
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- [22:07]
Amy Mann
sex ed to be medically accurate and relationship classes. Lets fix that. I'm Shan, an ASEX certified Sex Educator with a Master's in Psych and on my podcast Lovers by Shan, we make learning about love as mind blowing as making it. Celebrities and fascinating people share an intimate story. Then we uncover the lesson for all of us. Watch Lovers by Shan from Lemonada Media on YouTube or listen wherever you like your podcast.
- [22:52]
David Duchovny
I wanted to read you a quote from the research that my folks gave me. I just think it's a great quote. I hope it makes you laugh. It's a terrible thing. Following the success of Magnolia and Bachelor Number two, she had a mental breakdown and depression following the success of Magnolia. But I mean that's. I just want to talk about success and failure.
- [23:18]
Amy Mann
I. I'm not really sure where that quote came from. I mean, I would say following or maybe before, during and after continually. Like what?
- [23:27]
David Duchovny
I don't. I don't know either. But it just, I, I laughed when I read that because it was like, well, what would be the. In a way, it's kind of my reaction to success as well is like, oh, I've got to shut everything down. That's the worst thing that could happen right there. Is that something worked out.
- [23:48]
Amy Mann
I don't think I have that. I don't think I have it. I mean, I think it's. I will say, like when I've been, I don't know, depression's not really the. When I've been the most anxious or you know, breaky downy. It just has been because success usually has meant working fucking nonstop. And in a way that is like if you were. I just, I don't really, I don't have as much bandwidth as some people might, but like to be on the road constantly and never getting reasonable sleep or decent food or having any kind of stability or rest or time off. Like that is. That's more of a contributing factor to, you know, feeling. I mean, you know, just like I'm more susceptible to physical, you know, feeling physically broken down is going to lead to kind of like a very bad mental State and some, you know, and so like it's often you don't see it coming because you feel like I should be able to do this. Don't other people do this? Haven't I heard about other people going non stop and tailoring Taylor Swift is to touring constantly. You're like, Taylor Swift probably has like a thousand buses and chefs and friends and entourage. Like, you know, you don't have that.
- [25:19]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [25:20]
Amy Mann
So it's a different experience.
- [25:22]
David Duchovny
Was. But there was a time that you kind of checked out for a little bit. There was a time in my life where I checked out for a while and went to a rehab type situation and it was, it was when things were just so. Things had been that busy for, for that long.
- [25:41]
Amy Mann
Yeah.
- [25:41]
David Duchovny
And I, and I hadn't, I guess I hadn't, I hadn't figured myself out enough at that point. And I went to Sierra Tucson actually and I learned a lot there. You know, I learned a lot in terms of like the education of interpersonal relations, you know, like. And I remember being there and thinking, you know, I wish that they had a course in this in college, you know, and how to, how to speak to one another rather than, you know, whatever it was I was taking.
- [26:16]
Amy Mann
I started to go to Al Anon, you know, which is a 12 step program. I had a lot of, a lot of therapy. I mean there was a point where I was probably, I think I was going to therapy like five times a week, you know, just. Yeah, not, not doing great, but, but I definitely wouldn't say it's just, it's, it's success. It is. You know, things just catch up to you. I think also, like, don't you, don't you feel like by the time you sort of hit your early 40s, all the coping mechanisms that really worked before are just like starting to break down and then you're like, I'm out of ideas.
- [26:54]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm still, I'm still miserable. Why is that? You know, there's. I, I think that I also had this kind of. Yeah, I guess this, this was a, an illusion or delusion and maybe you share it as an artist, which was. Well, if I make these chaotic vectors within me, not chaotic, if I solve these riddles, if I figure out these problems, I'm not going to be creative anymore. You know, I'm not going to.
- [27:31]
Amy Mann
I think I fortunately did not ever have to, did not have that particular obstacle to overcome. I never thought that because for me being depressed just meant I couldn't work at all. You Know, I just couldn't get anything done because you can't access anything. So that. So I never thought that. But, you know, like, I also started. I started therapy when I was, like, early 30s, and. And I. I got a lot out of it, so I. You know, I've always felt like it was only a benefit creatively, and that depression was not. Didn't fucking help at all.
- [28:10]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [28:11]
Amy Mann
You know, like, sitting around, like, not being able to get out of bed. Like, how is that more creative?
- [28:16]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Yeah. I guess for me, it was just like, I've got to find another venue to. Because I. Whatever I'm doing, I still feel shitty. So I'm gonna try writing. I'm gonna. And. And I see you, you know, you're doing your. Your. You draw. And I wonder what is the impulse that's driving you not away from songwriting and performing, but also in addition to what's not being addressed in the songwriting that you can address in drawing? Or is it just, like, something you enjoy doing? And I shouldn't read too much into it.
- [28:55]
Amy Mann
I like a challenge. And there's a handful of graphic novels that I was just very inspired by. And then there was a cartoonist I really admired that I had do some artwork for me. I became friends with him, and there was another cartoonist who moved down the street, and we started hanging out and drawing cartoons together. So it was always, like, a thing. I mean, I've been playing with the idea of doing a graphic memoir for, you know, like, 15 years. But it. Which I. And I'm doing it now, but it's just like a gigantic undertaking. And, you know, I think doing the cartoons and posting them on Instagram was just, like, good practice and made me think, like, well, maybe I could manage to do this. Although drawing's very hard. I mean, I don't know. There's something fun about starting almost at the ground level and something creative and going like, could I do this? If I really practice, what would it take?
- [30:06]
David Duchovny
Yeah, I mean, that's really how music happened for me. I mean, it was not only that question that you just asked was like, could it happen? But also also getting back to a feeling of being new at anything is. Is kind of a beautiful place to be. You know, the Zen mind, beginner's mind, or whatever. It's like, oh, all these kind of rudimentary questions are coming at me at a point in which, you know, I've been. I've been doing stuff with a certain kind of expertise for a while, and now I have none of that. And that feels kind of great.
- [30:41]
Amy Mann
Yeah.
- [30:41]
David Duchovny
It's accessing some other part of my brain that's turned off, I think. I don't know.
- [30:46]
Amy Mann
Yeah. And then I think along with that is that the music business changed so much and people stopped buying records. So, like, a little bit, you're like, does anybody care about me? Like, if I make another record, who is really going to care? So, you know, you have that on one hand, and on the other hand, you know, I'd be curious to see if I could write music for a musical or, you know, like, maybe I could write a graphic memoir, that kind of thing.
- [31:17]
David Duchovny
Yeah. So does that factor into your kind of desire to write more music? That. Looking at the state of the business
- [31:25]
Amy Mann
right now, I think the thing that I'm most interested in is writing music for a musical because I'm. I'm more interested in writing songs that have, like. It's more of a challenge to say, write a song for this character to sing, and the character is saying this, but in that the. By the end of the song, the character needs to be here. That's like a real. Because, you know, when you're writing sort of, you know, pop music or singer song or music or whatever my genre is, you can get away. I mean, I get away with. But like, you tend to write in a more, you know, poetic imaged base, like the. It's not necessarily writing in paragraphs, like a per. You know, like a person talking. That's a lot harder. It's easier to sort of have, you know, fragments of images and, you know, fragments of narrative.
- [32:29]
David Duchovny
Right. The name of your podcast is Straw Into Gold, Is that right?
- [32:35]
Amy Mann
Yeah.
- [32:37]
David Duchovny
And it's kind of germane to what we've been talking about in terms of depression and work and that kind of stuff, I guess, because I don't know the podcast, but I'm aware of the phrase you're talking about taking wounds or failure as we talk about on this podcast, and turning them into gold through some process of creativity or. Or. Or therapy or whatever. I mean, I'm assuming that, yeah, it is.
- [33:04]
Amy Mann
I talked to like, four different people and, you know, who have had trauma in their life and like, what their relationship, how that did sort of translate it into a creative life, you know, and it's really. It's really interesting how, you know, for some people it's, you know, it is transformative. So it's not like, you know, it's not therapy exactly, but it's. Can be therapeutic. It's sort of therapy adjacent. You know, it's not like a substitute for therapy, but it can reveal, you know, I've certainly had many, many moments where I've written something in a song or, you know, and I'm singing it later, and I go, oh, that's what. That. That's the subtext for that. Or that also applies to this other thing. Yeah.
- [33:57]
David Duchovny
Yeah. I mean, I was. As I said, I've been a fan of yours for many, many years, but I didn't know your personal history at all. And I was. I mean, it's specifically dramatic and shocking, and I was. I started to think about, you know, when you were saying strong to gold. You know, I know we like to have this. As artists, we like to have this. This hope that we're going to turn our wounds into. Into something that is beautiful for someone else as well, not just for ourselves. But there are some wounds that you can't create out of. Some wounds are. Are. I think some wounds are almost lethal. You know, it's like, I don't want to belittle, like, traumas that can't be turned into a song or traumas that can't be turned. You know what I mean? And it's. I like on this podcast, talking about failure and talking about how failure can be used as a tool of humility and of empathy and all these things. But sometimes I feel, you know, talking to very successful people, it's an illusion that I'm giving because it's like there's some shit that happens that you can't write out of it that you. And agree objectively. I could say when I read what happened to you as a child, I'd say, well, I don't know. I don't know how one writes out of that.
- [35:32]
Amy Mann
But you have, you know, I mean, again, I don't. You know, I think that with ptsd, there's part of your brain that is like, I need to tell this story and you need to tell this story because you sort of don't really know the story. Like, you can know part of the story, but, you know, like, my family's situation was like, my mother and her illicit lover kidnapped me and kidnapped his kids and, like, absconded to Europe. And, you know, I was probably found nine months later or something and brought back and then never saw my mother again. And so that, like, sounds like a dramatic story. And to me, like, you know, earlier in my life, it was like, check out this fun story. But, you know, like. But I, like, literally had no feeling about it. And I mean, it kind of is only in. You can only write it about obliquely because you're like, I don't have any feeling. I'm like, I'm not going to write a story about a kid who loses their mother because I am devoid of emotion around that. I don't think about her and feel sad. I don't really have any memories of her. I certainly don't remember anything that was affectionate. Her boyfriend was an asshole, you know, I was glad to get away from them. But, like, logic would dictate that there probably is like, you know, some like, another subtext. And so I think that's like part of your brain is like, here is how I'm going to tell that story. I'm going to tell it by. I'm going to tell it obliquely by having a different narrative. But that fits that feeling and there's something useful about that. But I don't. Does it make it go away? Probably not. I don't know. It's just. It's like a. It's just like a, you know, a turtle, baby turtle trying to make its way to the sea. Like, it's a cognitive instinct, but I don't know if it's. Processes it and it's, you know, the other thing is, like, very hard to process and write away stuff that you don't remember and that you only remember by way of, you know, panic attacks and, you know, anxiety and like terrible depression that's triggered by something that you think might be this, but you can't really tell because you can't fucking remember it. You know, it's a way of remembering to have a panic attack. You know, like if you were bitten by a dog as a kid, you don't remember it and then you have a panic attack. When you see a dog, you can conclude that's what's happening, but all you're left with is the fucking panic attack. So how do you process a thing you don't remember? I don't know. Yet to be determined. That is your. That's the subject of your next podcast.
- [38:25]
David Duchovny
Well, I think in a way, you know. Yeah. That it's one of these things, like as a parent, you know, I was talking to Gabor Mate, who's like a really smart addiction guy, and he said, yeah, the most important years are pre verbal, zero to three. And I was like, oh, shit, dude. I wish I would have known that.
- [38:44]
Amy Mann
I know. We're fucked.
- [38:47]
David Duchovny
If you get him past three, you're fine. If you get him past three, you're fine.
- [38:51]
Amy Mann
Yeah. Oops.
- [38:54]
David Duchovny
So what are we to do with that? And beyond that, how do we reach out and try to understand other people who are experiencing the same kind of confusion? It must just feel like confusion because there's no logic or word on it, words on it.
- [39:10]
Amy Mann
It's totally confusing. And it makes me crazy to be beset by panic attacks or anxiety attacks or whatever you call it, or a nameless sense of dread, which is fucking fun. And you're like, why? Why? Like, you know, there's a reason. You're like, I'm pretty sure something happened that probably looks like this, but I can't remember it. I mean, you know, I do think that there's. The interesting thing about songwriting is the music part is all subtext and subconscious, and then you put language on it, and it is like processing right brain, left brain, back and forth, you know? Has it helped me? I don't know. I mean, I'm functioning. Like, I'm technically functioning. I would rather not have the occasional periods of dread, but there's certainly been periods where, like, I was way less functioning. So I guess it's a win. Hey, everyone, it's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin. You might know us as two of the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. We're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime. And this is what's the Plan? Your week guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back. This is not canned talking points. It's a real live discussion space for the pro democracy movement. We wrestle with strategy together. We take your top voted questions in real time, and we talk about the most impactful actions we can take right now. Democracy is a participatory sport.
- [40:58]
David Duchovny
The fascists win when we sit on the sidelines. What's the Plan Is about how we
- [41:02]
Amy Mann
get into the game. What's the plan? Available Friday, January 23rd, wherever you get
- [41:06]
David Duchovny
your podcasts, subscribers recruit, discuss, organize, and win.
- [41:10]
Amy Mann
That's the plan.
- [41:31]
David Duchovny
What I'm amazed at is your love of Steely dance. I. I did not see that coming at all because I don't associate you musically with ceiling. I love Steely Dan myself. When I was in high school and my yearbook quote, we got to quote your, you know, was actually, I'm never going to do it without the fez on.
- [41:56]
Amy Mann
I mean that. Okay, so here's my explanation. When I. When I was like, in high school or you know, whenever Silly Dan was, you know, before high school. But like, when they were first out, their audience was like a real all Male. Yeah, but in very snarky and also pretty misogynist. Like, all the people I knew who were really into Celie Dan, like, were. Were interested in the. The sort of threat of misogyny and interested in, like, you know, the sort of dirty little secrets that, you know, like this sort of dirty stuff, you know, like dirty movies or, you know, Haitian divorce kind of, you know, like. Because they're kind of, like, seedy stories. And so I liked it musically, but was sort of put off by that. And then later on, when I started listening to, you know, this is a real subtext thing. You know, the thing about songwriting is that the music is the subtext, and it can't. It can't be divorced from the. The words, you know, And I feel like the lyrics, first of all, it's like grade A lyric writing and very cinematic, like real storytellers and just, like, very skillful lyric writing, too. But the subtext of the music is often really fucking sad. And you're like, oh, these are, like broken, traumatized people who. At least one is caught in the throes of drug addiction and is trying to put some braggadocio on it to sort of justify his choices, and it's just not working. Like, it doesn't. It never feels. I never listen to a Steely Dan song and go, wow, they really sold me on the Babylon Sisters, you know, So I feel like there's a subtext of, like, just sad. Like, sad and broken and depressed and. Which is. You know, which I can relate to, and I relate to those. The juxtaposition of lyric and melody.
- [44:07]
David Duchovny
I think for me, it was so oblique. Their lyric writing was so seemingly impersonal, you know, that they had kind of.
- [44:16]
Amy Mann
That.
- [44:17]
David Duchovny
They were obviously talking about personal matters and what you say, depression, sadness, things like that. But they were putting it through this blend of noir film or whatever, these characters that they come across. It wasn't in any way. You'd never get a direct statement of even love in a Steely Dan love song, you know, and that, to me, I think artistically, I was kind of reaching out to that. You know, like, listening to top 40 radio was all these very. You know, the statements were there. You know, the lyrics were on the surface much of the time. And so I was.
- [44:50]
Amy Mann
Was.
- [44:50]
David Duchovny
I was reaching for that. And what you talk about, the sadness of depression. I mean, you know, my. My favorite line, and it's like the essence of this podcast was, they got a name for the winners in the world. I want a name when I lose you Know, like, yeah, that. That I. I wouldn't mind that on my tombstone, you know, and it's. It's like, that's what I was responding to, I think. And it's also interesting to think about their kind of arc, because they were. They were super popular, but they were kind of critically reviled at the time.
- [45:21]
Amy Mann
Oh, really? Oh, that's interesting. I don't think I was aware of their.
- [45:26]
David Duchovny
Well, because they were jazzy, you know, like the rock purists who had this fantasy that there was something called pure rock and roll, which never really existed anyway, but.
- [45:37]
Amy Mann
And I think critics in that era always did revere more kind of like the blues based, more Americana sort of thing. But, you know, that's the other amazing thing about Steely Dan. Like, they created their own genre, and no one else has really lived up to that genre. Like, it is. It is their own. Because I don't like fusion and Prague. Like, that's not my thing at all. No.
- [46:05]
David Duchovny
Yes.
- [46:05]
Amy Mann
For you.
- [46:06]
David Duchovny
No. Yes.
- [46:07]
Amy Mann
I mean, for nostalgia purposes.
- [46:11]
David Duchovny
Right, Exactly.
- [46:12]
Amy Mann
Yeah. Yeah. But Silly Dan, I could literally listen to over and over and over. Never get sick of it. Have not gotten sick of a single song.
- [46:19]
David Duchovny
Right. Do you. Because I used to, you know, come up with my own interpretations of their songs. I'm wondering, like, have you been subjected to interesting interpretations of your songs? And do you sometimes go, yeah, that's actually better than what I meant. You know,
- [46:36]
Amy Mann
I. Not. I don't know. Not really. I mean, I. You know, like, when I first started writing songs, I think I was under the impression that people would really analyze your lyrics and, you know, and that you had to, like, justify, you know, that you were like, there was gonna be lyric court and then test you. Yeah. And then people would say, like, well, what does this line mean? How does that line relate to this line? Which probably, like, helped me, you know, double check lyrics and. And, you know, try to be as good as I. As I could be. But the only time it's. I wrote a song. I wrote a song that a boyfriend interview assumed was about him and it could not have been further. In fact, it wasn't even about what he thought it was about. I mean, it wasn't even like a relationship song, really.
- [47:22]
David Duchovny
What is your personal criteria for the success and a failure of a particular song? Do you sometimes go, why do I love that song more than others? Why do other people seem to love this song more than others of my songs? Is that kind of an alchemy that you're interested in, or is it just Something. I give it to the world, and now it belongs out there. It's no longer mine in a way.
- [47:47]
Amy Mann
I don't ever think about how other people are going to react to a song when I write it. I have my own standard about what's good, and I don't always measure up to that standard. And sometimes you just have to go, like, I can't work on this thing forever. Like, I don't have any more ideas about it. And that in the past, that's usually translated into, I feel like it needs a bridge, but I just don't have an idea for one. Or I feel like this rhyme isn't great, but I don't know how to put it any other way. You know, I think as I. As I get older and do it more, I have. Something kind of kicks in where I have an intuition about. I know that there is a way. I know this could be better. I can feel that there's, like, a better rhyme or a better line. There's a way to put this. Or there's a turn of phrase. And so I'll keep working until I hit. Until I hit that. Because I kind of can feel it out there. But before, it was like, you're inspired. You work while you're inspired. And then you're like, I gotta finish it. And you're like, I don't have. That's it. Inspiration is over. It didn't last to, like, me having a bridge or a third verse. Like, that's the way it goes.
- [49:13]
David Duchovny
Is that your conception of how inspiration is that your. Is that your feeling of that kind of spiritual situation that you find yourself in, being inspired, and that it. That it's germane to a particular song that you're working on and not transferable to some other song? And then you kind of reached the end of that inspiration, and now, for whatever reason, you're tired and you can't finish it?
- [49:40]
Amy Mann
I think nowadays it works differently. I think that inspiration is more a thing that happens just when I start working. Like, when I start working on something and it's hard to explain. It's like, I don't have to be inspired in this magical way. I can really just sit down and ask myself, what do you want to say? And then think of a few ways to say it. And, like, one of them doesn't work. It doesn't fit the rhyme scheme, but I immediately come up. It's just, like, easier to not hit a brick wall with it.
- [50:17]
David Duchovny
Is that different from when you were younger, when you kind of do you think you kind of relied on whatever that mystical idea of inspiration is when you were younger. Now, as you become kind of a master or attain more mast, you know that there's a process you can go through and that you'll get to the end of it.
- [50:34]
Amy Mann
Yeah, I think when I was younger, it really was like, it either happened or it didn't happen. And I couldn't. There was nothing I could do to keep it going, whereas I can keep it going just by continuing to work.
- [50:48]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [50:48]
Amy Mann
You know, like, it's just easier. It's just I have more access to it.
- [50:52]
David Duchovny
Right. Was your voice always this voice? Did you work on your voice at Berkeley? No.
- [50:59]
Amy Mann
I mean, I took voice lessons at. At Berkeley. And I never understood what, you know, breathe from your diaphragm and to. I never understood it. I never felt like it made any difference. So when I. You know, my first band was like, a punk band, and I would just, you know, it was just like screaming and.
- [51:19]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [51:19]
Amy Mann
You know, like a crazy, faux operatic. You know, because I was trying to make it be as ridiculous, you know, like, as crazy as possible. So, you know, thank God for, like, punk and new wave because it was like, you know, come one, come all, you don't have to know what you're doing. And that was really fun. But it was also good practice to just be on stage and trying things. And, you know, I just find now that singing is. Is. There's like a million little micro muscles that, you know, there's certain. You know, if I'm singing a certain note where I put it in my mouth and, like, what the back of my throat feels like, it's like. You just learn that by doing 50
- [52:07]
David Duchovny
zillion times, do you, if you're recording. We all have limitations that we struggle against as artists, and we all have limitations just in our voices. So as you've gone on, as you create workarounds, as you create ways to sing into your strengths, away from your strengths. Have you been aware of that kind of a growth?
- [52:29]
Amy Mann
I feel my voice is very limited. I can't sing loud, which makes me crazy. I feel like I have no power. I can never get a rock sound, or it's just soft, folky. It doesn't matter how mad I am or energetic. But if I. I sing a take in the studio and I'm like, that was really. It just, like, sounds strained, and it still sounds soft and folky, but now it's strained or, like, now it's sharp, you know, like, it never. And I just have to Go like, this is how it is. I sing softly, and I don't have much of a range. And that, like, that is just. So that's the way it goes. Like, not everybody could do everything. Like, I don't have, like, great types. You know, it's. I sing in a very conversational style, and which I kind of. You know, that's what I like in other people anyway, so that's fine. But, you know, it is what it is, and I just have to. You know, a lot of times, I have to go like, I know you want to sing this very energetically and, like. And sing it out and powerful, but you don't have that, and you're gonna blow. You'll just blow it out if you try. So keep it soft and intimate.
- [53:45]
David Duchovny
Intimate is the word I'm thinking of. And I guess the other part of that question was just, like, super mechanical, which was, how many times would you say you like to sing a song before you record it?
- [53:57]
Amy Mann
That doesn't matter. I mean, I can and have written a song in the living room and gone right into the studio to sing it. In the studio, I will sing. I used to do five takes, and we would compare vocal takes, and now I just do three, because the take number one and take five are never good. And it's like, yeah, so why. Why bother?
- [54:24]
David Duchovny
So there's no. Like, let's. Let's just stay on take number one. There's none of that kind of live energy. They were trying this for the first time, like, as an actor. I kind of like, take number one. It's never. It's never the. It's never good all the way through. But there's a kind of discovery in it that can be a certain kind of energy. I don't know. Do you ever feel that way?
- [54:48]
Amy Mann
In my head, I can hear what the perfect vocal, like, what it. What. It's not that it's gonna sound like. And to me, it's just hitting all the marks. It's like, I can. Because the melody and the way I'm singing it are, like, the same. So I. I mean, it never. It never varies. I can tell, you know, when I listen back to it, I can tell if I've hit it or not, because it's in. So, you know, and then the first take is just your kind of. Your actual voice is just warming up, and then the fifth take, you're sick of it. So, you know, I mean, you sing anything five times in a row, you're like, I'm done with this damn Song. So, you know, David, you can ever, however you try, you can never get away from failure and disappointment.
- [55:35]
David Duchovny
Well, thank God, I say, because that's. It's the human condition.
- [55:42]
Amy Mann
Yeah.
- [55:42]
David Duchovny
You know, we're all failing. And thank God we have artists like you who can put words and melodies on it. And I thank you for that. And the last thing that I would ask you is, is it not going to stop until I wise up? Is that really true?
- [55:57]
Amy Mann
I think so. It's not just. Yeah. There's no outside element that's going to come in and stop it. For you, David.
- [56:03]
David Duchovny
Thank you.
- [56:18]
Amy Mann
Hey.
- [56:19]
David Duchovny
Thinking about the Amy man interview and I. I didn't have the, the songs in my recall like I, I wanted to because I really do listen to her music, or I did. I did listen at one point a lot. And she was a companion in many ways. Her consciousness, as displayed through her lyric writing and through her music, was a companion to me. A kindred soul, I thought, I think especially probably going through a breakup way back in the early 90s, listening to whatever. Amy Mann was a great breakup singer. And I think I just lived in that space trying to get information, you know, both as the man and the woman in the relationship. You know, I had my information as a man and now I was hearing demonstrably female perspective. And I loved when she said, you know, that spite is an underrated motivation for writing songs. The songs of spite. Spite is a word you don't hear very much anymore, but it's a powerful one. There's. I, I didn't want to talk about this, this, like, prevailing narrative around Amy, which is, you know, she was slated for a huge rock and roll stardom and then, you know, just became, you know, a decent seller, but a beloved songwriter genius and kind of had an alternate career to the one that was projected for her. I think that's boring to me and I'm sure it's boring to Amy at this point and untrue because you are the artist that you are. Whether or not mega sales happen, mega popularity, that's luck and timing and talent, obviously, but. But there's a lot of luck and there's a lot of timing involved. So ultimately, like, any discussion of fame, you know, ultimately bores me. I don't know why people are still so fascinated with the subject of fame or the subject of commercial success. That's all. There's more. Fail Better with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now. And Apple Podcasts Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Bracci, Donnie Matias and Paula Kaplan. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Krupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Patrick McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowland and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.
- [60:12]
Amy Mann
Story Pirates is the number one podcast for kids and families in the world and the newest addition to the Lemonada Media Network.
- [60:19]
David Duchovny
We take stories written by real kids
- [60:21]
Amy Mann
and turn them into sketch comedy and
- [60:24]
David Duchovny
songs featuring professional actors, famous guests and original music.
- [60:28]
Amy Mann
So get ready to light up your
- [60:30]
David Duchovny
kids imagination nations with a show that
- [60:32]
Amy Mann
you will also enjoy. The Story Pirates Podcast new season coming November 6th.