← Fail Better with David Duchovny
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- [00:01]
David Duchovny
There's one thing that all people on earth have in common. We move through the world in a human body. Bodies ache, they bleed, they desire, they hold the stories of our lives. International Planned Parenthood Federation, or ippf, is sharing some of those stories from around the world. Read them now@ippf.org everybody, it's morning in New York. Hey, everybody. I'm Mandy Patinkin. And I'm Kathryn Grody. And we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Listen to Us. Many of you have asked for our advice.
- [00:44]
Ben Stiller
Tell me, what is wrong with you people. Don't listen to us. Our take it or leave it advice show is out every Wednesday, premiering October 15th.
- [00:54]
David Duchovny
A Lemonada Media original, Lemonada. Hey, Fail Better listeners. You might remember way back when, back when this podcast started, that my very first guest was Ben Stiller. It was a memorable interview for lots of reasons, including that Ben talked to me a lot about his parents, Jerry Stiller and Ann Mera. Well, he's been working on a movie about the two of them, and that movie is about to be out in the world. It's called Stiller and Mira. Nothing is lost. And it'll be streaming on Apple TV. Plus, starting this Friday, October 24th, in honor of that, we're revisiting that first episode of Fail Better, featuring my friend Ben. Hope you enjoy. Okay, I'm starting to record something for you. I just gotta say, off the bat, I am so bad with anything technological. I've spent the last 10 minutes fucking this up and, oh, man, it's so frustrating to me. All right, all right. I think I got everything working now. You're hearing my voice, right? We're making a podcast. It's called Fail Better and I'm David Duchovny. Why am I making a podcast? The best answer I can come up with is that I felt like I've been failing my entire life. So on some level, I can speak from plenty of experience. I've had personal failures, like we all have. I've had professional failures, like we all have. I have things that I've been called as an actor. I had a high profile divorce. I had a magical mystery tour through rehab. We don't have to get into specifics now, but stay tuned. Maybe we will. There's a sense in which failure looms over us, and I want to know what's good about that, and I want to know what's bad about that, what's inhibiting about that, what is pushing us forward to be better, and what is holding us back in shame. That's what I want to get into. That would be a wonderful result of this, if even a little bit of shame in our lives could fall away. You know, one of my most painful professional failures is kind of what prompted the whole idea for this podcast. I was in Canada shooting a movie, and my movie House of D that I wrote and directed, the first movie that I directed, had just come out in the States. And what I read is in bold letters, david Duchovny's House of D gets an F. An F. An F. And the. You know, the hairs on my neck started to do weird things. I could feel sweat dropping from my armpit to my waist. I could feel my ears getting red. I had vertigo. Just that. I don't know what else to call it, but, like, when you just feel shame or humiliation, and it's a real interior feeling, like you're sent kind of deeply inside yourself in some kind of childhood shame. And the first line of the review was, have Dave Duchovny's brains been abducted by aliens? Good one. Yeah, it was a good one. Because it. I mean, that just went. You know, it hurt. I get to my trailer, and I'm still, like, in this kind of vibrating, you know, dizzying, jittery state. Like, I'd had 10 cups of coffee. But it was like, shame coffee, the best, strongest coffee of all. And. But then I thought, you know, I've. I have a job to do. These people have hired me to act on their movie. The, you know, my review from another movie is not their problem, not their interest. So I kind of tell myself I got to suck it up. I got to figure out a way to go out there and do decent work today. Even do good work, you know, do work. And so I do that. I go out and I have a day. I can't remember, you know, if the work was good or bad or indifferent. I suppose it was good enough. And then I went home, went to bed, and I woke up, and I feel fantastic. Like, I've never felt better. And I remember, oh, that paper. Oh, that review. And I realized in that moment that I felt so light and free is because my whole life, I'd been terrified of getting an F. From school on, you know, from childhood on, just like an F. I think at some point in my head, I made the equation F equals death. And here I was on a Saturday morning in Montreal, and the sky was blue, and I was breathing air, and I was drinking coffee, and I was feeling good, and I'd had My F. Because I realized that you don't die when you get an F. And I'm so happy now, all these years later, to have gotten that F and to have been somewhat freed from the tyranny of pass fail of A, B, C, D. Why did they leave out E? What happened to E? Why can't E be a grade? Why do they go from D to F? I guess because of failure. Fail Better is a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. This is my very first interview. It's my very first interview that I've ever done. I've been an interviewee. I've never been an interviewer. And it's a different seat, it's a different vibe. But luckily, my first time is with a man who I've been fortunate enough to fail alongside a few times over the years. He lasted only four episodes on Saturday Night Live. His sketch comedy show won an Emmy after it had already been canceled. He is the man who directed the Cable Guy, and he's responsible for Zoolander 2. That's right. It's Ben Stiller, my friend. And here's our conversation. Hey, there you are.
- [07:33]
Ben Stiller
How's it going, man?
- [07:35]
David Duchovny
How are you?
- [07:36]
Ben Stiller
I had to get all. Make sure I had my cup of coffee ready.
- [07:39]
David Duchovny
I know. I got one right here.
- [07:40]
Ben Stiller
Good.
- [07:41]
David Duchovny
I'm just gonna slam it at some point.
- [07:43]
Ben Stiller
How you doing?
- [07:44]
David Duchovny
I'm good. Thanks for doing this.
- [07:46]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. I'm so into it. Look, it's actually, I think, a really good idea.
- [07:53]
David Duchovny
Well, I see. The thing is, it's nice that you say that, because I don't really know, you know, I have this idea that it's a good idea. Right. But I'm not even. How it happens or how it takes form, which is kind of exciting, but also, you know, nauseous. Making.
- [08:07]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, I know.
- [08:08]
David Duchovny
On the other side. Yeah.
- [08:08]
Ben Stiller
Taking a chance. But it's. There's so much to talk about in that world, I guess. I don't know.
- [08:13]
David Duchovny
I know. I know. What I wanted to say to you was, do you remember how we. We came to do Zoolander together? I say together. I had a small part in it.
- [08:24]
Ben Stiller
But, you know, small yet pivotal role, let's face it, very important.
- [08:28]
David Duchovny
Do you remember. Do you remember how it happened?
- [08:30]
Ben Stiller
Not quite.
- [08:31]
David Duchovny
So you sent the script, or the producer sent the script to Taya to read for some role, and it was lying around the house. And I was like, what's this? And she said, oh, that's a Ben Stiller movie. And I said, why? Ben Stiller is not sending me A script? He's sending. He's sending you a script? Well, can I read it? And then I read it and I think I got in touch with your reps and said I would love to, to do anything that you want me to do. And you offered me the brother role or the hand model. And I thought, I'll do the hand model. I think I can understand that. So we, we go and we're on set and we're shooting. What was that island off the coast of Roosevelt Island.
- [09:16]
Ben Stiller
Right, right across from the un yeah.
- [09:19]
David Duchovny
So we're, we're shooting that scene and I've got this, you know, crazy monologue basically with a few interruptions from Zoolander. What you stumbled upon goes way deeper than you could ever fathom. The fashion industry has been behind every major political assassination over the last 200 years. And behind every hit a card carrying male model. We did it like three, four, five times. And the fourth or fifth time I fucked up. I flubbed the line or whatever. And you and Christine both said finally. And I was just so liberated by that because there I was trying to be perfect, you know, I was trying to get it right, get it right, get it right. And I just wanted to. You know, that was like a moment of gratitude I had for you as a director, as a creative artist and everything. To just recall that. To recall that moment.
- [10:14]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. Wow. I didn't remember that part of it. I also, I do remember from that scene that I. I think I screwed up my line and said, but why male models? Twice a couple times. And we ended up leaving it in the movie.
- [10:27]
David Duchovny
It was like.
- [10:28]
Ben Stiller
It seemed like Derek was just stupid. It was really just me.
- [10:30]
David Duchovny
Why male models?
- [10:33]
Ben Stiller
But why male models?
- [10:36]
David Duchovny
You serious? I just, I just told you that a moment ago.
- [10:41]
Ben Stiller
Right. Everything you know, you're talking about is I so identify with and you know, like a little moment like that on a set. I mean, it's so scary sometimes to just. Especially if you don't know the people. We didn't know each other really.
- [10:57]
David Duchovny
No, we didn't.
- [10:58]
Ben Stiller
And I was just so excited that you wanted to be a part of it. And I remember being like nervous, you know, with you there too. Wanting it to work out, you know, like wanting you to have a good experience and wanting this.
- [11:09]
David Duchovny
That's ridiculous.
- [11:10]
Ben Stiller
No, no, but for real, you know, because. So he was like Dave Duchovny, cool actor guy who wanted, you know, I reached out about being in the movie and I was jumped at the chance. But I think you really do appreciate those little moments. I remember when I was, like, one of the first jobs I ever had was playing a. A tough guy in a Bette Midler movie, this movie called Stella. And I. I played her daughter's tough, like, wrong side of the tracks boyfriend, which is, you know, a role I ended up getting typecast in for years and years after. But I. You know, it was like, maybe like my second or third role in a movie. You know, one scene or one or two scenes, and I had to, like. She was, like, grilling some food on a barbecue outside of her apartment, and we were, like, on the porch, and I was trying to be tough. And so, like, I, like, took a piece of meat off the barbecue and I ate. Was so ridiculous. But, you know, God bless the director. His name is John Ehrman, and BET for giving me this opportunity to play this guy. And I was so nervous, trying to be cool. And I remember the script supervisor, who's in charge of keeping track of the continuity, that you do the same thing every take said, oh, no, no, no. You picked it up with your left hand, or you picked it up on this line the last take, you should pick it up there. And I was so nervous because I'd never been in that type of situation. And I remember the director just jumped in and said, no, no, no, don't worry, don't worry. He hasn't found it yet. Let's just let him do his thing.
- [12:40]
David Duchovny
And.
- [12:40]
Ben Stiller
And that, like, it was like a little moment like that, like, you're talking about that. I always remembered that the director was there, kind of like going, no, no, no, it's okay. You know what I mean? Like, all of this machinery and these things that, you know, you can get judged about or that you don't know when you're walking in. It was a different, you know, slightly different situation, but it's the same thing where somebody just gave me the freedom to say, like, it's okay to, like, just figure it out. And. And. But that does get to the essence, I think, of what it is to have to take these chances when you do anything creatively, for sure.
- [13:10]
David Duchovny
I remember the first job I got was a commercial for Lowenbrau, and I was terrified. I mean, somehow I got the commercial.
- [13:18]
Ben Stiller
And I. Lowenbrow was a beer for people who don't know, right? It was a beer.
- [13:22]
David Duchovny
Yeah, it was a beer. Thank you. Thank you. I remember it was a beer. Let it be lo and brow was the tagline. Exactly. Let it be lo and brow. Let it be lo and brow. And so I get there and they tell me, okay, here's here. There's no dialogue. It's just like an image of me and an older guy at a bar. And they tell me, like, he's an old professor of mine that I run into. Like, that's the vibe they want to get from us. And at one point, I like, it's very much like your meat thing. I like, tossed a pretzel up into the air and like, you know, caught it in my mouth. You know, like just, mister, mister at ease, you know, at the bar. And the director was like, yeah, that's good. And then I just glommed onto it, like I couldn't stop, like tossing pretzels up in the air and catching them in my mouth. And finally I just remember the director. And we got the pretzel. We got the pretzel. And then the shame just started. Like, you know, when somebody sees what you're trying to do, it's the worst.
- [14:20]
Ben Stiller
There's one audition where I had to do a whole monologue. This is like when I was like 17, like for a play in New York. And the monologue was about a bris, like somebody having a bris. And I'm, you know, should know that. And the whole. I didn't know that. And I pronounced it brie. B, R, I S as brie, like brie cheese, the whole monologue. And at the end of the edition, they said, thank you very much, and it's pronounced bris. Next. Oh, yeah. I mean, and especially at that point when you're just starting out and you're lucky enough to get work, it's so exciting to get the work. And it's so charged. It's, you know, I. At least I've always felt so nervous, you know.
- [15:06]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [15:07]
Ben Stiller
I mean, you know, like all these, all these things are like, I think as time goes by, I don't know, we just change as people. I think, you know, we change as people over the years. And I have a different perspective on, you know, like, when I look at myself 20 years ago, I'll watch like B roll footage, which is like, you know, behind the scenes footage of like on a film or a movie, you know, of like me making jokes about something. Like. And I'm thinking I'm really funny. And like, I look at this guy, like, thinks like, he just knows what the. And I look like such an asshole. Just like, oh, this guy really thinks, like he's got it all figured out. But there's something about when you're young too. There's that aspect of like. Okay, you have this.
- [15:46]
David Duchovny
Absolutely.
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Ben Stiller
Right. Just this drive.
- [15:47]
David Duchovny
You need that. You need that. You need that. We also need that confidence that you have that you haven't figured it out.
- [15:52]
Ben Stiller
Exactly.
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David Duchovny
It's not supreme. It's not supreme confidence. It's like, it's. It's like a green confidence. And I had it too. Like, when I first started acting, I was like, I'm fantastic. I'm, you know, I'm, you know, fuck, you know, I'm just gonna, like, I'm just gonna like, get, you know, like, I look at old X Files and I'm like, oh, man, that is just bad. But there's an eagerness that is kind of winning, you know?
- [16:14]
Ben Stiller
Right.
- [16:14]
David Duchovny
And then at some point I feel like I lost that eagerness. And then like, what do you replace that with? It just. You become a different kind of a maker, you know?
- [16:22]
Ben Stiller
Yeah.
- [16:22]
David Duchovny
Because you can't be 21 forever in. In any way, you know, even in a creative way.
- [16:27]
Ben Stiller
Yeah.
- [16:28]
David Duchovny
And for sure. And there's a different kind of creation that comes as we get older, different relationship to it. And, you know, I look at your work, I mean, your work is incredibly varied. And what I notice is, you know, in the beginning, I see a person who's engaged in having a conversation with the television and the movies, you know, with the medium.
- [16:54]
Ben Stiller
I feel like I had a lack of self awareness or understanding of why I wanted to have that conversation with movies and tv, other than I loved them and I wanted to be a part of it. And I grew up around it, obviously with my parents. But I have to say, like, failure, you know, has contributed to that in a big way. Because I think the times where I've like experienced that, they were pretty. You know, there were a couple, I'd say, like the two, like, professional ones that really, like, I feel like, really affected me.
- [17:28]
David Duchovny
What do you think of specifically when.
- [17:29]
Ben Stiller
You say that specifically in terms of.
- [17:32]
David Duchovny
Failure or those failures?
- [17:34]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, well, the first one was the Cable Guy because with Jim Carrey and that, that movie, we had so much fun making that movie. And. And when the movie came out, it was not well received and did not make a lot of money at the box office and was the first movie that Jim Carrey did that didn't do well.
- [17:52]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [17:53]
Ben Stiller
And I remember picking up the New York Times review of that. I remember where I was at the St. Regis Hotel and like opening up the New York Times review which said the first disaster movie of the summer has arrived. And it's called the Cable Guy because at that Time, you know, like disaster movies were a big thing too.
- [18:11]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [18:12]
Ben Stiller
And that was kind of shocking because it was just like, oh, whoa. Like, I thought this was. I thought like, we were so into this and we were having so much fun doing it and Jim was so into it and we spent so much time and energy making this thing. You know, that thing of like, you go, wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought this was. But like, this is the thing we worked really hard on and we all really think is good. But I did feel the lull in terms of, after that of like kind of people not calling. You know what I mean? You don't get a lot of call. First of all, you don't get. It's that thing when like the movie comes out and it doesn't do well. You always get like, you get a lot of like, you know, calls and like, congratulations when things are going well, when something isn't good, like it's just a silence, there's nobody calls or there's.
- [18:59]
David Duchovny
There, there's the worst call, which is like, I don't care about the New York Times.
- [19:03]
Ben Stiller
Oh, yeah.
- [19:03]
David Duchovny
When you've, when you've stayed away from the New York Times and not read the review and things.
- [19:07]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, yeah, that's the best. When you get like the text. Fuck the New York Times text. I'm like, okay, I guess.
- [19:11]
David Duchovny
Thank you. That's aware. I wasn't aware until now. Now I guess I have to read the New York Times and see how bad it is.
- [19:18]
Ben Stiller
I don't think I've ever gotten a good review of the New York Times. But it was like, then the real repercussions, like the show business repercussions were like, oh, well, not a lot going on in terms of directorial offers because it was kind of like a high profile failure. It's just so it really sticks with you. Obviously those moments, those. The feeling, like you say shame, this feeling of shame and I, you know what you were just talking about at the beginning to me like, that that's beautiful. I love that story that you kind of woke up just feeling free. Because that, that's the reality of it, is that nothing has changed. Okay. Maybe somebody reads the review who is a producer who might have like hired you, who now will go like, oh, I don't want to hire him, or, well, somebody who doesn't like you will laugh at you or like talk to their friend about. But in your reality, in the reality of the lives that were, you know, living on this planet, like nothing has changed. And that, that like, your.
- [20:20]
David Duchovny
Your dog didn't read the review and look at you, like, yeah, that.
- [20:23]
Ben Stiller
Right, right.
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David Duchovny
I wish I had a different owner.
- [20:26]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. I mean, the people who are. Love you in your life still love you, and the people who respect you still respect you. And, you know, if you really look at it, like, look at the history of people, you know, doing things and taking chances and making art, it's just like you can. You know, it happens literally all the time. I found, for me, it's always. It always comes back to just my own. My own feelings of insecurity. You know, that's. That's, for me, like, when I would look at how somebody would react to something I did negatively, it. It's usually because it's somehow. I'm. I'm somehow thinking, oh, yeah, you know, that. That's something that I agree with. That I don't. You know, like, in myself and you.
- [21:11]
David Duchovny
You. You give it weight.
- [21:12]
Ben Stiller
Exactly, exactly.
- [21:14]
David Duchovny
If it's negative. If it's negative, you tend to give it more weight. Right.
- [21:17]
Ben Stiller
But then you have to like, what are you gonna do? Quit the business? You're gonna. Are you gonna stop doing it? Like, you have that moment where you go, okay, they're right. I suck. I'm awful. And anytime that's happened with me, it's always allowed space for other things to happen in my life, you know? And, you know, eventually things change. Anytime you're, like, forced to have to just be with yourself, usually good things come out of that because, you know, there's so many distractions in success.
- [21:46]
David Duchovny
Yeah. What is it? Success has many fathers and failure is a bastard. And, you know, and you're sitting there.
- [21:51]
Ben Stiller
You'Re alone, and that's. That's the most real time because that's when you're like, really, really, like, you know, you're just there with. With who you are. And the other kind of big one for me was Zoolander 2. And that was. And that was, you know, that was like a really shocking one to me because that was like, later in life. And I was also like, okay, well, I thought everybody wanted to see this movie. And I was like, wow, I must have really fucked this up. That, like, everybody didn't go to it and it's gotten, like, these horrible reviews. It was really. It really freaked me out because I was like, yeah, I didn't know it was that bad. Like, that's what scared me the most on that one was like, wait a minute.
- [22:27]
David Duchovny
Question.
- [22:28]
Ben Stiller
I'm losing. Like, what. I think. What's funny. Yeah. Questioning yourself. But on. On. On Zoolander 2, it was, you know, it was definitely blindsiding to me, and it definitely, like, affected me for a long time, but it also. It was the same thing, only, you know, I wasn't as young, so it was like. It's almost even, like, harder, too, because you're like, well, wait a minute, you know, like, what? Yeah, you know. But for me, though, it was the same thing, by the way, as Cable Guy, too, where, like, then there was, like, kind of a quiet time, you know. And the wonderful thing that came out of that for me was, again, was just, like, having space where, like, if that had been a hit and they said, like, make Zoolander 3 right now or, you know, offer some other movie, I would have just probably jumped in and done that. But I had this space to just kind of sit with myself and have to deal with it. And other projects that I had been working on, not. Not. Not comedy, some of them I had the time to actually just work on and develop, and it ended up giving me the space. And really. Because I didn't really have a choice at that moment other than, like, I wasn't like, even if somebody said, well, why don't you go do another comedy or do this? Like, I probably could have figured out something to do, but I just didn't want to, and I don't.
- [23:50]
David Duchovny
Why didn't you want to? What's that feeling there? Were you. Is that anger? I don't want.
- [23:55]
Ben Stiller
No, it was just hurt, I think. Hurt and, like, you know, take my ball and go home and, like, you don't want me.
- [23:59]
David Duchovny
Yeah, right, right, right.
- [24:00]
Ben Stiller
All right. You don't want to. You're not gonna get Zoolander. And so I just sort of, you know, like, didn't feel like putting myself out there, but I, you know, over all these years, like, part of, you know, talking about, like, what. You know, finding yourself in terms of, like, what creatively you want to be and do. I always loved directing. I always loved making movies. I always, in my mind, loved the idea of just directing movies since I was a kid and not necessarily comedies. And so over the course of, like, the next, like, nine or ten months, I was able to develop out this limited series, Escape, a dannemora of these. These comics who escape that I don't think would have happened if I had gotten distracted with something else. And for me, that was really transformative because it was the first time I was ever directing something that I wasn't in, which had not been in my intention over all these years. And I was so happy doing it. That kind of set me off on a different path that I don't think would have happened, you know, as a director that I wouldn't have pursued or made the space to pursue if I'd had the success with Zooland.
- [25:22]
David Duchovny
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- [29:50]
Ben Stiller
No such thing as half Jewish, David.
- [29:53]
David Duchovny
There isn't.
- [29:56]
Ben Stiller
But yes, my mom was Irish Catholic. My dad was Jewish.
- [29:59]
David Duchovny
Yeah, yeah. My mother was a Scottish Lutheran and my dad was from Brooklyn. Was your dad born in the States?
- [30:04]
Ben Stiller
My dad was born in probably in Brooklyn. Yeah. In Brooklyn. Lived all over the Lower east side. Super poor.
- [30:11]
David Duchovny
We might be. You know, you and I should never have a baby.
- [30:14]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, let's just put it that way.
- [30:16]
David Duchovny
So to get back to like the initial impulse, right? You're the son of two performers and do you think you wanted to make people laugh? Is that the first thing? Cause your parents are professional, funny people, right? Is that like little Ben Stiller? Is he going, I'm gonna make him laugh, I'm gonna make him laugh?
- [30:36]
Ben Stiller
Well, maybe it's little Ben Stiller wanted to get, you know, Jerry and Anne to laugh at him and to pay attention.
- [30:43]
David Duchovny
Really? Is that so?
- [30:44]
Ben Stiller
Well, I think it's that, you know, you're folks, your parents are actors. You know, you want their. You know, it's a whole world that you're in where you see people paying attention to them, and you, as a kid, want your parents to pay attention to you. And my parents were amazing, but it's also like. It's, you know, they were just like, you know, living the life of a comedy team who had to, like, they had, you know, had to write their act. They were writing and making commercials. They were doing television episodes. They were just, like, kind of doing their thing. Right. And they brought us along with them. But, like, I think as a kid, you know, you see that and it's. There's something very, you know, exciting about it, too.
- [31:23]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [31:25]
Ben Stiller
I didn't really have the desire to be funny. Funny. I think I. I remember very young, like, being excited to be on a set and to see the cameras and to see, like, how they set stuff up and just, like, the aura of excitement when, you know, about to shoot something. I went on the set of taking a Pelham 123, and my dad was, oh, yeah. And, like, being around that and going, oh, this is the coolest thing ever. The making of movies to me was. That's what I remember as a little kid thinking, like, I want to be a part of making movies.
- [31:58]
David Duchovny
So there wasn't a moment where you got that first laugh and you were like.
- [32:03]
Ben Stiller
Well, my parents would bring us up on stage sometimes after they would do their act or they would do summer stock productions and do, like, a play. And then to bring Amy, my sister and I up and, you know, we'd do, you know, like, some lines from the play or something, and people would laugh.
- [32:16]
David Duchovny
Yeah. And how did you feel about, you know, the fact that the family life, the relationship was part of the act. Right. And therefore, at some point, you must have felt like, you know, am I going to. Did they talk about their kids? Am I going to be part of the act? Was there ever that kind of a.
- [32:36]
Ben Stiller
Well, there was no. Yeah. I'm actually. I'm working on a documentary about my parents right now. So I've been kind of looking at a lot of their stuff. And, you know, really, my dad made a lot of audio recordings of their rehearsals and their, you know, their process of which is. And he just recorded stuff around the house, too. And there was always that sort of that my parents act. My sister and I knew it sort of inside out. And there were all these jokes that they would make that we didn't quite understand about, you know, marriage.
- [33:04]
David Duchovny
Did you and your sister actually. Would you. Would you play your dad and your sister would play your mom and you do the act?
- [33:09]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, we do the act. Yeah. That's weird.
- [33:11]
David Duchovny
That's what you'd say.
- [33:14]
Ben Stiller
I mean, we do. We were just like. There was a lot of performing going on in the house. Like, my parents would go away to LA to, like, work, like, do a Love Boat episode or do, like, Courtship with Eddie's father. You know, they'd do a guest show because they never moved to la. And then my sister and I would be alone for, like, you know, a week or two weeks with our housekeeper Hazel, who took care of us, and we would just, like, go crazy and then, you know, come back and we'd, like, act out, like, the first act of Jesus Christ Superstar for my parents or Pippin or something like that. So I guess we were trying to get their attention. Yeah. But we definitely knew their act. And they would, you know, like, my mom would have these jokes, like, you know, I'm Irish Catholic. That means I'm paralyzed from the waist down. Like, you know, it's like, joke that would never fly today. You know, that was like, what. What does that even mean? Oh, she doesn't.
- [34:01]
David Duchovny
What does that mean?
- [34:01]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, okay. You know. Yeah. And it's politically incorrect. But, like, you know, jokes like that, that were. My. My dad would say, this is the. My wife and the mother, my two kids. And my mom would say, and this is the father of one. And, like, that would get a big laugh. And we would do.
- [34:19]
David Duchovny
I'm laughing.
- [34:19]
Ben Stiller
I'm sorry. I know it's funny. They were. They were brilliant. But as kids were like, what does that mean? But we didn't even think. Like, it didn't even. We didn't question it. It was just sort of like, that's the act. That's, you know, there's jokes. Right? So it was just part of. It was just part of that. There was like, you know, it was a melding of the act and life and all of it was intertwined. By the way, those 70 shows, because I have been looking at a lot of them for my parents thing. What people talked about on talk shows in the 70s was so real that people just talk. Well, they just talk about real stuff. There's nothing funny, anecdotes, you know, that you see now on. On the Tonight Show. Or whatever, you know, where, like, they ask you what you're going to talk about and you tell something funny. People just talking about, like. Like, I have my parents talking about, like, Barbara Walters asking my parents, like, so, like, when Jerry goes on the road, do you worry that he's gonna cheat on you, Ann? Things like that. But, like, for real, and everybody's, like, smoking cigarettes and. Or it's just amazing that it was just. Everything was just so much more, like, less polished, you know?
- [35:24]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [35:25]
Ben Stiller
You know, honestly, later on, like, looking and exploring that stuff and seeing the reality of, like, what it was like to be, you know, a kid in the 70s when your parents weren't around a lot. And we were kind of left to our own devices a lot to take care of ourselves, you know, with. Parents are doing the best they could, but that was. That was the reality. And watching your parents on TV was kind of a, you know, kind of like, wow. You know, that reality seemed more, in a way, more interesting to me than the reality of our lives.
- [35:55]
David Duchovny
You know, I. I think. I think when you say watching your parents on tv, I. I got. I got emotional, you know, because it's like, I know they were great parents and I know. I know you're not saying anything but that, but, like, to have that substitute and then to watch you then go say, I'm going to, you know, live inside that box too. You know, if they're in there, I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get in there.
- [36:18]
Ben Stiller
But they weren't there when I got there.
- [36:19]
David Duchovny
I want to. I wanna be with them. You know what I mean? And. But I wonder also, you know, because they were successful, but they were not like, uber successful. And they were constantly, you know, they were gigging actors, right? They were. They never could stop hustling. They never could stop hustling, right?
- [36:37]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. No, they were working for a living. They were having to do what they needed to do. Right.
- [36:42]
David Duchovny
When you. You must have been aware of their sense of not. Maybe not failure, but of anxiety and the constant threat of it all going away and stuff like that. And I won. If that. If that was part of any of your Kind of the creation of your consciousness towards the business.
- [37:00]
Ben Stiller
Right? Yeah, I mean, definitely not consciously for me, you know, I wasn't thinking because when you're. For me looking at them, all I saw was. All I saw was their. They. Their success was that they were working. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't. I wasn't comparing it. I didn't.
- [37:16]
David Duchovny
That looked like a huge Success, Yes. Just being on the box.
- [37:19]
Ben Stiller
The fact that they were doing like the $10,000 pyramid, you know, or, you.
- [37:23]
David Duchovny
Know, I'm not gonna argue.
- [37:24]
Ben Stiller
Like, I'm not gonna argue, to me, was the coolest. It was the coolest thing in the world. Like, I was so excited to go and hang out there, you know, And I think, you know, for them, whatever their own personal feelings of, like, what they aspired to, you know, which is the stuff like, as an adult now, I can. And I talked to my parents about it, you know, when they were older, too. That wasn't what I was experienced as a kid. I wasn't aware of that. All I experience would be maybe the residual feelings or tension between them sometimes when they were having. My dad was trying to figure out how to get, you know, my mom to write with him or when she was less interested in being. Doing that because my dad was more interested in doing the act and my mom wasn't. Things like that. But it wasn't ever conscious. It was just sort of like, okay, they're doing their thing. And then. And you know, as a kid, you don't think that way. I think you don't. Like, you're not even thinking about, like your parents issues. At least for me, I wasn't. You know what I mean? No, I'm just thinking about myself and you as a kid. I'm just thinking. Right. Like.
- [38:23]
David Duchovny
No, I know, I know. Yeah. It's wonderful. I mean, that's. I love that about kids.
- [38:27]
Ben Stiller
Yeah.
- [38:28]
David Duchovny
But. And I also don't think a kid thinks of his dad as a failure or a success. You know, which is the weird thing when we. When we become fathers and we're thinking, oh, you know, my. I bet my son wishes that movie did more.
- [38:42]
Ben Stiller
Bob. Exactly, exactly.
- [38:44]
David Duchovny
He doesn't.
- [38:45]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. And I'm sure your kids. Because, you know, your kids are older.
- [38:48]
David Duchovny
And my kids do care. My kids care. Oh, my God. My dad. You know who I didn't think of as a failure or a success? He once said to me, I'm giving you one of the greatest things a father can ever give a child. I'm not very successful. That's what he said to me. And I had no idea what he. I didn't really know what he's talking about, you know?
- [39:09]
Ben Stiller
Yeah.
- [39:09]
David Duchovny
Yes, you're right. There's no such thing as half Jewish. Exactly. I just proved it. So.
- [39:15]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, for sure now, now.
- [39:19]
David Duchovny
Because in a way, you know, that kind of humility, you know, the humility of that is really what joins us together. You know, I was, you know, when I, you know, raising kids, I was always like. I was always kind of like, embracing their failures, you know, and I. And I. And I never knew if that was the right thing to be doing, you know, if I should be like, you know, ah, just get back in there until you win, you know, fucking. You know, and sometimes I was always like, maybe you're too comfortable with not giving up, but just like going, hey, you know, like, you don't always win them, you know, you're not always a winner. And it's funny how we. We kind of. We re. Parent ourselves when we parent our kids, you know, and.
- [40:07]
Ben Stiller
Yeah.
- [40:08]
David Duchovny
Yeah, we make different. Different mistakes than our parents made. Yeah, we make the mistake.
- [40:13]
Ben Stiller
Well, definitely different. And some of the same too. I mean, you made me think of it when I. When you were saying about me, like, watching my parents in the TV set and then, like, wanting to get in the TV set, you know, and my. Both my kids are interested in acting.
- [40:29]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [40:30]
Ben Stiller
You know, I. That. That made me think about when I went off and started doing movies and had kids and my parents being away, that I went through the same thing with my kids where I would be away working. And it's at one point just feeling that. And I think my parents had to keep working, doing their thing, and were doing the best they could. But, like, at a certain point, I had that conversation with my family, which was like, oh, you know, like, I'm away a lot. And yeah, I remember my son just like that thing. My son like. Like I was going off to do like a night at the museum, two or three or something like that. And I was like, hey, but you. Like, night at the museum. He's like, yeah, but I don't like when you're away and. And I. And I feel like that, like, you know, we talk about failures, like, definitely, as a parent, you always think about the things you could have done better, like, to be around more, you know? Yeah. But I also think, like. But it's kind of like, oh, that was a little bit of a cast in the cradle moment too, for me, you know?
- [41:28]
David Duchovny
Oh, that song kills me, man.
- [41:29]
Ben Stiller
Like, it's. It's truth. It's just truth.
- [41:32]
David Duchovny
I was doing this thing when. When we took my daughter to. I was just on this jag where every time there was a silence in our conversation, I'd start singing Cats in the Cradle because they'd all laugh, but I would start to cry. I would literally start. I cry when I sing that song.
- [41:48]
Ben Stiller
It's amazing. It's because it just captured reality.
- [41:52]
David Duchovny
I know. And the thing about. I don't want to let you off the hook for being away or whatever you feel is right about that time or whatever, but I. The kind of. What I told myself when I was away, if I was away from my kids working, well, I knew they had. They had a loving mom at home. I knew that. So I wasn't leaving them alone, nor were you. So. But what I told myself was like, oh, I'm modeling an engaged person. You know, I'm modeling a person who's not just defining themselves as a father of this child, you know, I'm modeling an adult out in the world doing his or her thing, you know, and is that bad? You know, like, what's the balance? You know, is the balance like, I'm just going to be your father, you know, and I'm on you. I'm on you 24 7. You know, it's just me and you, buddy. Or is it, you know, I'm on you when. I'm on you 247 when I'm here. But I'm also. I'm into my life and I'm into my work, and I'm into the world, you know, Like, I don't know. I don't know the answer.
- [43:03]
Ben Stiller
No, I think there's elements of that that are very valid. And of course, as our kids are now like young adults.
- [43:11]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [43:11]
Ben Stiller
You're able to have those conversations with them, right, where they can talk to. Talk to you about it?
- [43:16]
David Duchovny
Hell, no.
- [43:17]
Ben Stiller
No. My kids will talk to me about it and give me a lot of shit. But also. But also, you know, like, we connect on other levels about. About the work and all because they do get it, and they both are interested in that world. So it. It really is. You know, it's just. That's just, you know, like, what would that have been if I was home all the time being the. The dad? I don't even know what that would have been. That would have been worse.
- [43:44]
David Duchovny
It would have been like Tannenbaums would have been like the dad and the T dressing them all in the same sweatsuit.
- [43:51]
Ben Stiller
Exactly. Right.
- [44:03]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, hi, everybody. It's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill. It could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. But it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone.
- [44:52]
Ben Stiller
I.
- [44:53]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
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- [45:32]
David Duchovny
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- [46:26]
Steve Burns
Hey, it's me, Steve Burns. And I'm so glad you're here because you and I go way back, right?
- [46:32]
Ben Stiller
Yeah.
- [46:33]
Steve Burns
And look at us now, like we're all grown up. We've got this new podcast where we talk about all this grown up stuff and there's special guests like Jam Lee Curtis and Bill Nye, but for the most part, it's about you. I mean, it's always been about you. From Lemonada Media, A Live with Steve burns is coming September 17th. Wherever you get your podcasts or you can watch every episode on YouTube.
- [47:13]
David Duchovny
One other thing I wanted to ask you about because I. It's weird when you get like research about a friend that you're gonna have. I thought I felt a little dirty.
- [47:21]
Ben Stiller
I know.
- [47:21]
David Duchovny
You know, like I. I don't wanna. What?
- [47:23]
Ben Stiller
What is it?
- [47:24]
David Duchovny
I don't want to read. But that you did est.
- [47:27]
Ben Stiller
Oh, yeah.
- [47:28]
David Duchovny
As a kid. And I find that I wanted to talk about two things before we finish. I want to talk about asked, but most of all, I want to talk about silver mind control.
- [47:39]
Ben Stiller
You have good researchers.
- [47:42]
David Duchovny
I want to talk about silver mind control so badly. But.
- [47:48]
Ben Stiller
Did you do silver mind control?
- [47:50]
David Duchovny
No, I never even heard of it until the research came in from Ben Stiller.
- [47:57]
Ben Stiller
Seriously, a plus to your researchers. Nobody has ever asked me about silver mind control. I did it when I was literally.
- [48:05]
David Duchovny
Tell me what it is first and who is Silva?
- [48:07]
Ben Stiller
I. I did it when I was 15. Okay, 15 or 16. So it's been a while.
- [48:13]
David Duchovny
Okay.
- [48:14]
Ben Stiller
It was a guy, I want to say his name was Jose Silva. I'm not sure.
- [48:18]
David Duchovny
Right, okay.
- [48:19]
Ben Stiller
And he came up with a mind control method to like, basically to like visualize things that you wanted to manifest. So my friend Adam Max, who his dad is Peter Max, the artist, grew.
- [48:33]
David Duchovny
Up in the building. Sure, yeah, yeah, I think I know Adam Max.
- [48:36]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, Adam told me about. He. Some. Somehow maybe his dad knew about it or whatever. It was like the 70s, you know, late late 70s. And we went down to this like, like the 12th floor of a building on like 33rd street between like 7th and 8th Avenue and did a seminar for like a weekend where they taught you how to meditate and can visualize. The thing I remember from it was a thing called the three finger technique. And they said you could use this if you're trying to find a parking spot. That if you just. A parking spot, you visualize the parking. Parking spot. And you put your thumb and your forefinger and your middle finger together and visualize the parking spot. And it would supposedly manifest it very New York.
- [49:19]
David Duchovny
You didn't have a fucking driver's license, so you weren't looking for a parking spot. So whatever silver mind control was telling you, it was not useful.
- [49:27]
Ben Stiller
It was something to do as teenagers that wasn't drugs.
- [49:32]
David Duchovny
Yeah. And my researchers say, yes, it is Jose Salvatore. Okay, I agree.
- [49:37]
Ben Stiller
It is Jose Salt. My parents did EST because there was a whole EST craze in the 70s, which was hard. Seminars, training. And it was this self actualization thing. And they had a children's training. So my parents did the regular adult training. Two weekends they go to like a ballroom in a hotel and they break you down and you know. I mean.
- [49:56]
David Duchovny
Yeah, well, that's the interesting thing is the breakdown stuff, right?
- [49:59]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, yeah, it was the idea of getting. The whole idea was to get it. Are you getting it? And they wouldn't tell you what it was other than like, it was the idea that you have to kind of, like, accept that you are responsible for everything. So that was what kind of the idea of what getting. It was. In other words, not blaming, you know, just kind of taking. Taking responsibility.
- [50:24]
David Duchovny
And as at 15. You're 15.
- [50:26]
Ben Stiller
No, I did it when I was, like, 12. That one I did when I was 12. And it was children in a room for two weekends. And they had. I just remember that they had pictures of emotions like anger, sadness, happiness. They had, like, different pictures of, like, these cartoon characters representing emotions. And they talked to us about, like, which emotions we connected with the most. And it was a little less intense than the, the, you know, the adult training, but it's definitely weird.
- [50:53]
David Duchovny
Well, I, I, I, I knew somebody who, who, like, ran the Forum.
- [50:57]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, that was a later version of it, right?
- [51:00]
David Duchovny
Yeah, a later version of us. And they really, they really yell at you.
- [51:04]
Ben Stiller
Yeah.
- [51:04]
David Duchovny
And they, they, like, try to break you down of all your bullshit and, you know, all your manipulations and all that stuff. There's always a moment in the funny Ben Stiller film where you fucking tell the truth. You know, you. You take shit, you take shit. You take shit, you take shit. And then you go est on everybody, you know? You know, it could be the mariachi guys or, or, you know, De Niro and the Fockers or whatever, you know, but there's always that moment where you've had enough and your anger is funny. And I don't know, that's the genius part to me is, like, the people that can be. That can make the anger universally funny to all of us. And I'm gonna try to relate it back to failure. Cause I think, you know, there's something in there that you're just tired of being shit on and being seen as an ineffectual failure in these movies. And I'm just wondering, you know, like, when you said est when I read est, I was like, isn't. That's kind of like. He's like an S counselor? There's always a moment where Ben is going to go est on you in a movie. And I'm just. I don't know. I. I'm sure you never made the connection, but.
- [52:20]
Ben Stiller
I didn't, but I just, I could. I. Look, when you said that, you relate to that moment.
- [52:25]
David Duchovny
Yeah, that moment.
- [52:26]
Ben Stiller
And honestly, when you said that, it made me think of my dad, because my dad, who I think was, like, truly just like one of the funniest people ever was, and where he had his most success, Seinfeld and King of Queens and people. The way that he blow up and get angry, I always felt, was that was him releasing so much real. Real rage and anger that he had. And, you know, but he was the sweetest human being in the world who would suppress it, and he found this way to channel it in a way that was so incredibly funny, but it was coming from such a real place.
- [53:03]
David Duchovny
Right, right. That's the point. Yeah. Is that this is real. But I see, you know, now that you mentioned your dad. Wow, when you say it like that, it's from a.
- [53:13]
Ben Stiller
Well, that's from him. Like a well of just years of like, real. Real pain and real anger and rage and frustration and all those things that he really only found a way to, I think, express through his work, you know?
- [53:27]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [53:29]
Ben Stiller
And he loved it. He loved being able to, like. And. And I think he was aware of that too. And, like, he kind of. It was for him. That's why he had so much joy in being in. In doing the work.
- [53:38]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. I mean, it's beautiful to me to think about you guys connecting through expression or style or, you know, of something that's handed down in a way, you know, from. From father to son, which is. There's something lovely about it.
- [53:58]
Ben Stiller
Well, I. I also just want to say, like, I am, like. I just think you're, like, your creative impulses. I always tell you what I see, but, like, you do so much, and it seems to me that whatever battles we all have with those fears and those insecurities, like, you just. You continue to create and push yourself and take chances in different forms, whether it's music. Right. I mean, I had so much fun playing with you that time.
- [54:26]
David Duchovny
Yeah. We should tell him. I got. I got Ben to drum for a couple of. I like to say my band is so big that I have Ben Stiller on drums and. And what I saw, you know, talk about process or whatever and talk about leaving it on the field, you know, and I was like, yeah. You know, you say you're a drummer. I'm like, just come and drum. That's because I'm an idiot. And you're like, no, I want to rehearse. I wanna. I wanna. You know, I want to. I want to be good, you know. I was like, ah, that. You know. But then you came and you. You put your heart and soul into it. You came and, you know, practiced with us and.
- [54:58]
Ben Stiller
And, yeah, I just didn't want to fail.
- [55:00]
David Duchovny
They loved you for. I know. What a pleasure Man, I didn't, you know, I don't know what I'm doing again, I think it's good.
- [55:08]
Ben Stiller
I like talking about this stuff. I think it's good to talk about this stuff too, you know, I think, yeah, it's good for me, personally. Personally like to talk it through.
- [55:15]
David Duchovny
Thank you so much.
- [55:16]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, this is great.
- [55:17]
David Duchovny
Thank you for your time.
- [55:18]
Ben Stiller
Glad you're doing it. We'll talk soon.
- [55:19]
David Duchovny
I hope to see you soon. All right. I just wanted to get down some thoughts about doing the first podcast yesterday with Ben Stiller. And, you know, I feel like a failure. It's funny, you know, you have this idea of what things are going to be. Who knows, you know, maybe I'll figure it out for next time a little more. But, like, specifically, what I didn't like was, yeah, we can get to that point where we talk about failure as, you know, a sign that we should try a different road. But what we don't get is what's the process? How long does it take? What is the mental process? What is the spiritual process? What is the emotional process? And fuck me, I didn't ask any of those questions. Fucking jackass. And I think Ben, with the generosity of spirit, kind of touched on those things without me asking. So he probably saved my bacon, as they say. I don't know why they say that. Why do they say save my bacon? He saved my ass because he was super generous with his time and his. His thoughts and his feelings and just generous to be the first guy to come on with me, you know, doing this thing that I don't know how to do and that, you know, the day after, I'm like, you suck at that. It's the first time I did this thing. I've been an interviewee a lot in my life. I've never been an interviewer. And I'd always thought that I'd be a terrific interviewer. So I was dealing with like, ooh, reality smacking me in the face as I saw it. So you can't just play Major League Baseball right away, can you? Yeah, but that's what we expect sometimes of ourselves, isn't it? So I think, you know, failure and expectation are twins. Never quite what you imagine, never quite the expected. And that's what life is, isn't it? So blahdy, blah, blah, baby. There's more. Fail Better with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now and Apple Podcast. Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kropinski and Kate D. Lewis. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, and me, David Duchovne. I mean Duchovny. Damn it. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowland and Sebastian Modak. Special thanks to Brad Davidson. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me through at David Duchovne. You know what it means when I say at David Duchov. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcast or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.
- [59:04]
Ben Stiller
Oh, wait, this is crazy. I'm still on. Yes, sir.
- [59:06]
David Duchovny
Get out of here.
- [59:07]
Ben Stiller
Interesting. I thought. No, it's curious. Like, I thought I disconnected, but I have. How do I get away now?
- [59:15]
David Duchovny
We didn't tell you.
- [59:16]
Ben Stiller
That's so crazy. Maybe we'll just keep talking forever. David, it'll never go away. Okay, that's really interesting. Oh, zoom. I get it. Here, wait, there it is. I got it. I didn't leave this. Okay, there it is. Bye, Dave. Bye, Keegan. I'll see you.
- [59:31]
David Duchovny
Yes.
- [59:33]
Ben Stiller
Now he laughs.
- [59:34]
David Duchovny
All right. Okay, what do I do? I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and on the new season of Heavyweight, I help a centenarian mend a broken heart.
- [59:42]
Ben Stiller
How can a 101-year-old woman fall in love again?
- [59:49]
David Duchovny
And I help a man atone for an armed robbery he committed at 14 years old. And so I pointed the gun at him and said, this isn't a joke. And he got down. And I remember feeling kind of a surge of like, okay, this is Power Plus. My old friend Gregor and his brother tried to solve my problems through hypnotism. We could give you a whole brand new thing where you're, like, super charming all the time.
- [60:14]
Ben Stiller
Being more able to look people in the eye, not always hide behind a microphone.
- [60:18]
David Duchovny
Listen to Heavyweight wherever you get your podcasts.
- [60:29]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Every caregiving journey is unique, but the isolation, guilt, and exhaustion we all feel, that's universal.
- [60:37]
David Duchovny
It's reality. It's life, you know, I wish it could all be happy and joyous, but.
- [60:40]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Sometimes it's full of rage.
- [60:42]
David Duchovny
And that is what it is. That's why this show exists, to be.
- [60:47]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
A safe place for caregivers to land. Listen to squeezed.
- [60:51]
David Duchovny
Wherever you get your podcasts.