Fail Again: Chris Carter Wants You To Believe

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fail Again: Chris Carter Wants You To Believe

Podcast: Fail Better with David Duchovny
Host: David Duchovny (Lemonada Media)
Guest: Chris Carter (Creator of The X-Files)
Release Date: March 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features David Duchovny in conversation with his longtime friend and collaborator, Chris Carter, the creator of The X-Files. They explore the recurring theme of failure—how it shapes creative work, their own careers, and their personal lives. In a candid and often humorous dialogue, they revisit pivotal moments from their shared history, discuss the joys and pains of creative ambition, examine how the process of "failing better" informs some of the most beloved television of the past few decades, and share insights relevant for anyone wrestling with setbacks.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Opening Banter & Personal Stories

• Duchovny and Carter set a relaxed, familiar tone, recounting a recent lunch with Gillian Anderson (00:45–02:43), leading to a humorous anecdote involving Anthony Kiedis and a "meet cute" at a smoothie place.
• Notable quote:
  • Chris Carter [02:43]: “Here I am, Anthony Kiedis is knelt next to me petting the dog, too. And so here I am… a meet cute.”

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2. The Mechanics of Storytelling on The X-Files

• Duchovny credits Carter and the X-Files writing room for revolutionizing his understanding of plot and story mechanics, transforming his focus from academic language to narrative propulsion (04:45–05:47).
• Discussion on the use of 3x5 cards for episode planning and storyboarding, including a playful rivalry over who had the best penmanship (05:47–07:20).
• Notable quote:
  • David Duchovny [05:41]: “I relearned a love for plot and for the kind of smart machinery that keeps somebody guessing… I think I'd be making nonsensical movies that don't go anywhere.”
  • Chris Carter [06:49]: “Morgan and Wong… brought these, you know, bulletin boards and three by five cards, and that became the way we plotted the episodes.”

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3. Collaborative Opportunities, Growth, and Team Culture

• Duchovny reflects on being given the chance to write and direct on the show—then a rarity, now common (08:10).
• Carter is praised for fostering an environment in Vancouver where everyone cared deeply about the work (08:33–09:09).
• Notable quote:
  • Chris Carter [08:38]: “The great thing about the X Files was that you were surrounded by people who wanted it to be good from the beginning…”

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4. Early Ambitions and Formative Experiences

• Carter describes the pivotal moment in 4th grade that seeded his writing ambition, earning teacher praise for the slogan: “Don’t read in the dark. Let’s light up the room.” (09:25–10:04)
• The deep influence of positive and critical teachers throughout his education (32:45–36:10).
• Notable quote:
  • Chris Carter [10:04]: “It was one of those things where you got the applause. The hook.”

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5. The Difficult Years: Creative Burnout and Personal Tension

• Duchovny opens up about feelings of guilt over leaving the show and the challenges around his departure at the end of season 7, discussing contract disputes and how their once-close relationship became strained (11:27–13:12).
• Carter recounts mutual burnout, the move from Vancouver to LA, and their eventual reconciliation (11:27–14:12).
• Notable quote:
  • David Duchovny [12:31]: “I was in a lawsuit with Fox while working on the Fox lot. Actually had my security sweep my trailer for bugs.”
  • Chris Carter [13:02]: “It was almost like it was a reflex. You know, I just did it, and I think it surprised both of us.”

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6. The Stress of Success & The Fruits of Overwork

• Discussion of the most grueling period when Carter was executive-producing both The X-Files and Millennium (roughly 50 hours of TV in a year, plus prepping a movie), leading to exhaustion and creative strain (16:13–18:56).
• Carter describes the pressure from Fox to keep expanding his brand with new shows, sometimes at the cost of existing projects (18:22–19:15).
• Notable quotes:
  • Chris Carter [16:51]: “It was the hardest year of my life. I don’t know how I made it.”
  • Chris Carter [18:34]: “I didn’t want to do another thing, but Fox came to me and said, this is your brand. Run with it.”

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7. Lessons from (and About) Failure

• Carter shares how pulling the plug on Millennium for Harsh Realm, only to have the latter quickly fail, informed his later advice to others—especially as a mentor who’s made hard calls (19:14–20:31).
• Emphasis on not ending projects prematurely if they work and bring fulfillment (19:34–20:28).

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8. Pottery, Process, and the Creative Mind

• Carter likens television production and writing to his hobbies: pottery (the joy of perfecting form through repetition) and flying (redundancy and process as liberating)—connecting his artistic temperament to his working style (25:12–27:40).
• Notable quote:
  • Chris Carter [25:43]: “I would sit for 14 hours and make 300 pieces of pottery all the same… I loved it.”

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9. Humor, Parody, and Early (Un-)Mentoring

• Carter’s early work at Surfing magazine, transition to screenwriting, accidental entrance into Hollywood, and how osmosis from watching TV shaped his writer’s voice (28:01–33:59).
• Duchovny and Carter swap stories about pivotal teachers and the creative power of both praise and tough criticism.
• Notable quote:
  • Chris Carter [35:51]: “It was one of those moments. Fail better. I’m a hard worker and hate to hear the word no.”

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10. On-Set Anecdotes, Authenticity, and Artistic Quirks

• Hilarious accounts of early creative misunderstandings, such as Carter overdubbing Duchovny’s line in post-production (“Damn it”) and the “widows and orphans” revelation—that Carter’s use of ellipses in scripts was more about formatting than subtext (38:00–42:44).
• Notable quotes:
  • David Duchovny [40:08]: “Now I would say… Say it. Just say it. You know, like, I’m somewhere else. I’m wrapped. Damn it all you want.”
  • Chris Carter [41:57]: “For me, it was an exercise because I always think if you can say it in four lines instead of four and a half, it’s going to be better…”

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11. The Mythic vs. Psychological Character of The X-Files

• Duchovny shares a new psychological insight about Mulder’s trauma and how he (unwittingly) re-enacts it through his partnership with Scully (47:22–48:37).
• Carter reflects on story archetypes and mythic storytelling as a complement to character psychology (43:07–44:53).
• Notable quote:
  • David Duchovny [47:56]: “He’s failed. But now he’s returning to the scene week after week and putting another young woman in jeopardy. And sometimes failing… as if he’s trying to heal himself by protecting Scully in a way he couldn’t protect his sister…”

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12. Public Criticism, Shame, and Resilience

• Duchovny and Carter share raw moments about how public failures and critical duds, like Duchovny’s “House of D” or Carter’s own projects, led to shame but ultimately growth (49:15–51:10).
• Carter details how an episode intended as a pivotal setup for a later X-Files conclusion was panned as a “dud,” and how his bigger meaning went unnoticed by critics (51:03–53:59).
• Notable quotes:
  • David Duchovny [49:30]: “I was in a shell. I was in a protective, non-deep breathing shell.”
  • Chris Carter [51:45]: “The review was done as a conversation with another critic… and he said… it was terrible. Another good critic word.”

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13. The Power and Desire to Believe

• Carter parses the iconic X-Files motif—what’s the difference between “believing” and “wanting to believe” (54:27–54:50).
• Notable quote:
  • Chris Carter [54:27]: “Believing is a certainty. Wanting to believe is a doubter’s line that a person wants to believe. Show me the reason to believe…”

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14. Curiosity, Adventure, and Legacy

• Carter relays a risky but exhilarating adventure walking on train tracks, illustrating his willingness to court both danger and serendipity in life (56:22–57:26).
• They recall uncanny synchronicity at a Malibu triathlon (57:53–58:45).
• Notable quote:
  • Chris Carter [57:26]: “It was less than a yard away from me, and it was terrifying—but one of the most exhilarating moments of my life, I think.”

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15. Influences, Obsessions, and Passions

• Both compare childhood obsessions: sports, dinosaurs, tropical fish (59:04–60:09).
• Carter reveals Scully (the character) was named after his baseball hero, announcer Vin Scully (59:11).

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16. Directors' Cuts, Artistic Limitations, and Turning Failures Inside Out

• Carter is delighted to announce a green light for a director’s cut of “I Want to Believe,” finally able to realize his original, scarier vision (61:06–62:23).
• They discuss how financial and technical limitations led to the signature dark style of early X-Files—an aesthetic “fail better” moment (62:23–63:30).
• Notable quote:
  • Chris Carter [63:08]: “If you have a small budget, you have to figure your way around the scare… That became its trademark and that became the art of it.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• David Duchovny [49:30]: “I was in a shell. I was in a protective, non-deep breathing shell.”
• Chris Carter [51:45]: “[The review] was a painful review in New York Times. Painful review to read… but no one got the ending. It's a huge ending.”
• Chris Carter [54:27]: “Believing is a certainty. Wanting to believe is a doubter’s line… Show me the reason to believe is what the line means.”
• David Duchovny [47:56]: “As if he’s trying to heal himself by protecting Scully in a way he couldn’t protect his sister… and sometimes even having to be saved by Scully. Saved by this sister proxy.”
• Chris Carter [62:23]: “Now I have a chance to go back and make the scary movie that I always intended to do…”

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Important Timestamps

• 00:45–02:43: Opening banter, Anthony Kiedis story
• 04:45–07:20: Writing room mechanics, plot vs. language
• 11:27–14:12: Duchovny’s departure, mutual exhaustion, reconciliation
• 16:13–18:56: Extreme overwork years—50 hours of TV plus a feature
• 25:12–27:40: Pottery, process, manufacturing analogy
• 32:45–36:10: Formative teaching moments, the value of failure
• 38:00–42:44: On-set stories, authenticity, the “widows and orphans” script revelation
• 47:22–48:37: Duchovny’s new psychological insight into Mulder
• 49:15–51:10: Public failure, shame, and the “big boy voice”
• 51:03–53:59: Critical dismissals vs. hidden intentions in show arcs
• 54:27–54:50: The desire to believe
• 56:22–57:26: Train tracks adventure, embracing risk
• 61:06–62:23: Director’s cut of “I Want to Believe” announcement
• 62:23–63:30: Artistic constraints leading to X-Files’ signature style

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Tone, Atmosphere, and Closing

• The episode is marked by warmth, vulnerability, irreverence, and deep respect between host and guest. They offer solace, humor, and illumination for anyone worried about creative setbacks.
• Carter’s humility, attention to craft, and appetite for adventure shine, while Duchovny balances gratitude with continual inquisitiveness.

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Final Thoughts

• David Duchovny [63:59]: “We are friends and equals now… what I’m proud of for both of us… is that we have matured into peers. And we are friends and equals now.”

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This episode is a masterclass in creative resilience, the evolution of collaboration, and the real (sometimes messy) lessons learned from failure—reminding listeners that failure is not the end, but the stuff from which iconic art (and lifelong friendship) are often made.

Transcript

[David Duchovny]

Hi, it's Julia.

[Chris Carter]

Louis Dreyfus here, and I can't wait for you to hear our new episode of Wiser Than Me with Cyndi Lauper on Amazon Music. Cyndi may be a girl who just wants to have fun, but for 40 years, she has brought playfulness and a dash of punk to some serious activism. We talk about her lifelong LGBTQ advocacy, her astonishing music career, and pick up a whole lot of wisdom along the way. Listen now, only. Only on Amazon Music included with Prime.

[David Duchovny]

I'm David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better. A show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Chris Carter is a TV and film writer, producer and director. He's also an avid surfer and master craftsman and artist. But most importantly in my life, he's the creator of the X Files. We actually had just gotten lunch a few days ago with Gillian Anderson as well. And of course, Chris had a story to tell me about what happened after we parted. So we picked up there.

[Chris Carter]

Let me tell you the funny story. You and I had lunch with Gillian on Saturday.

[David Duchovny]

Saturday.

[Chris Carter]

And I dropped you off, and then I went to our favorite smoothie place.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Chris Carter]

Yes. And Sun Life.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And I walk in, and who's standing in line in front of me but Anthony Kiedis.

[David Duchovny]

Okay.

[Chris Carter]

And you've seen him around the hood, probably. Yeah. Anyways, very recognizable. And so I thought, yeah. What do I do here? Do I say? You know, just say, hey, love the music. You know what I'd usually say, But I think, you know, well, just leave.

[David Duchovny]

You want to say John Bartley, poet and a prophet. John Bartley told me how to off it. That is the insidest of all jokes. And screw you. We're not going to tell you what it means, but go ahead. What did you say?

[Chris Carter]

Oh, John Bartley. Anyway, so I decide I'm just going to leave him alone. This guy probably gets hit on all the time. Anyway, so he orders, and then I order, and then we're standing there waiting for our food, our drinks or whatever, and he's got some people he's talking to, and a young woman walks in with a dog. And you know, me, I'm a sucker for dogs. And so I bend down high, you know, what's your dog's name? My dog's name is Tinkerbell. And the next thing I know, Anthony Kiedis is knelt next to me petting the dog, too. And so here I am.

[David Duchovny]

You know, this is what they call a meet cute in Holland.

[Chris Carter]

A meet cute. And so he pets the dog For a little bit. And he gets up and moves on. And the young woman looks at me and she says, can I ask you a question?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

Are you Chris Carter?

[David Duchovny]

It's a good one. Well, thanks for coming on. Thank you. And it reminds me, I remember when we used to do Kevin and Bean.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And you went on and they said you had the voice of God. So that's why I thought we needed video today, because your voice is too overwhelming without saying, I've got a radio face. No, no, it's not the radio face, but. But one of the things, you know, you mentioned, Jillian. But one of the things that's interesting to me when I'm doing this with people that I know, with people that are my friends, people that I've known for 20, 30 years, is that, well, first of all, I get to kind of apologize about shit or just reminisce. But also, as I study objectively, you know, I read materials on you and stuff like that, I get kind of a different perspective, you know, as, as friends, don't, at least in my generation, don't spy on one another, don't read about one another in that way. And I enjoy that. And actually, I, I, I usually take a swim after I, like, take a bath in, in, in Chris Carter isms and, and, and history. And then I, I swim and I, I, I, I see what comes up because I'm not counting laps. I'm just. It's that meditative state. And something came to me today that I want to get to later that I really want to talk about. It's interesting, not personal, but something about the show and something that I've said before, you know, aside from, you know, just my entire career being made possible by the X Files, which is, you know, obvious history. But specifically. And again, I've said this before, when I think about what I learned from you on the show was really, as I've said, you know, I was coming out of graduate school. I was reading and writing these highfalutin papers about deconstruction and had nothing to do with, like, the love of the story that I might have gotten into reading in the first place. I think as kids, we get into the story. That's what we want to hear. And I no longer was doing that because it was more of, like. It's like, if you think about being a general surgeon, and now I had to do just brain surgery. I had to learn about the brain and by osmosis. Over a period of a few years, watching you write, watching you shepherd the Other writers in the X Files, I relearned a love for plot and for the kind of smart machinery that keeps somebody guessing that goes to the highs and lows. So without that, I think I'd be making nonsensical movies that don't go anywhere. You know, I started. Or even writing.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Like, I was like, okay, it's not about language. It's about the plot. At least in our business.

[Chris Carter]

Well, it is. I mean, movies are about plot. I mean, movies that have no plot, some can be good. Terrence Malick movies I admire anyway. But you know that when I did the pilot for the X Files, I wrote a 17 page single space outline. So story was very important. I didn't just wing it. When we started up the show, we hired writers. Morgan and Wong came on the show. Glenn Morgan and James Wong. And they had been working on Stephen Cannell shows. And they brought with them a bulletin board and we put up 3x5 cards. And that became the kind of the way the.

[David Duchovny]

What's happening? Oh, the Mayo Clinic.

[Chris Carter]

It's my kiln guy. I'm putting in a kiln today.

[David Duchovny]

Well, we'll get to your podcast.

[Chris Carter]

Okay. All right. I mean, anyway. Okay, so I'm putting in a kiln today, and that's my kiln guy calling.

[David Duchovny]

So wait, where were you? You were talking about. Oh, the story. Morgan Wong and.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, Morgan Wong. They brought these, you know, bulletin boards and three by five cards, and that became the way we plotted the episodes.

[David Duchovny]

Well, look, here's more of your info.

[Chris Carter]

More three by five cards. Yeah, exactly.

[David Duchovny]

Your handwriting was perfect. Mine is.

[Chris Carter]

Was a Glenn Morgan thing. He actually had beautiful penmanship and he would make these cards. And so that became also competitive. Who could make the most beautiful cards?

[David Duchovny]

Really?

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. And anyway. And we've worked like that ever since. Yeah. And I think. I think Vince Gilligan still works that way on Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. I think I'm not positive about that.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I think it's smart because, you know, you're gonna. I remember we would work on some scripts and we would just take this card. This scene could maybe go over here or this scene goes over here. Maybe it comes back, maybe it doesn't. And that all. That all makes sense. So I wanted to thank you for that, which is. I can't repay that thanks because it's really opened me up into another part of who I am also, you know, giving me the opportunity to write and direct on the show, which she didn't have to do. Now it's kind of A. It's almost de rigueur that stars of the show.

[Chris Carter]

Well, I. Now the stars are also the producers.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. So. But then it wasn't.

[Chris Carter]

No.

[David Duchovny]

And, you know, it was probably seen as a, you know, some kind of gift or whatever, which I never wanted it to be. I just wanted to earn it. And you said. Well, I said to you, if I'd like to write and direct one. And you said, well, if you write something good, yeah, you can direct it,

[Chris Carter]

and then maybe you can direct.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

No, no, no, no, you didn't.

[David Duchovny]

Well, no, no, he didn't put it like that. But you say if you write something.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. And, you know, I gave Gillian a shot, too. And, you know, the great thing about the X Files was that you were surrounded by people who wanted it to be good from the beginning. And, you know, that's not, in my experience, always the case. Some people just show up for work. But certainly when we shot in Vancouver, it was that esprit de corps was. It was the reason I got up every day to do the show, do the job.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. And when you were. When you were a kid, your ambition, your writerly ambition didn't kick in till later, right?

[Chris Carter]

Well, it. It kicked in. I didn't realize it until later in fourth grade.

[David Duchovny]

You're a late bloomer.

[Chris Carter]

A late bloomer. Anyway. Yeah, we had a little exercise in fourth grade, and it was more like advertising, and the teacher said, come up with something about reading something that could, you know, just a sentence. And I came up with a sentence anyway.

[David Duchovny]

Do you remember the sentence?

[Chris Carter]

Yes, I do.

[David Duchovny]

What was.

[Chris Carter]

Was. Don't read in the dark. Let's light up the room.

[David Duchovny]

Oh.

[Chris Carter]

And it's like, not bad. He. He praised me for it. So, you know, I. It was one of those things where

[David Duchovny]

you got the applause.

[Chris Carter]

Exactly.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

The hook.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That guy was. He's the problem. That guy put the hook in you. The other part of knowing people that come on like this is that I get to. I get to go over some difficult times.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

You know, and something, you know, kind of lost in the. In the times that we've, you know, done a reboot of the show twice now, and even the second movie, you know, going back to me leaving the show, like the. The end of the seventh year. I did half the eighth year, you did ninth year without me until I came back for the end of the ninth year, which was the end of the show. And, you know, it's. I don't know. I don't know that we've Ever, really. We don't have to, like, hash it out, but it's. I realized later that that was a difficult thing to do, even though, you know, you may have been as tired as I was or as wanting to move on as much as I was. But, you know, I feel. Because I consider myself a team player, so I feel. I've always felt like a bit of an abandonment, not by you, but of you in that sense. And I don't know if we're going for any resolution here or anything like that. This is not like the VH1 version of it.

[Chris Carter]

By season seven, we were all tired. We'd made a big move from Vancouver to Los Angeles. We had done well over 100 episodes, so. And there were legal contractual things going on that were fraught. And we, you and I, had a parting. And we became. I don't want to say mortal enemies, but it was a difficult time and it was resolved. And you came to me. I remember you coming to my office. I remember right where you're standing, and you said, I'm going to leave. One of the parts of this agreement is I'm going to leave the show for a time. That was actually something you had worked out legally with Fox. But you came to me and told me that actually, you just reminded me of something. So that was a forgettable part of the show for me because you and I were at odds,

[David Duchovny]

and I was in a lawsuit with Fox while working on the Fox lot. Actually had my security sweep my trailer for bugs. We were afraid that we were being bugged. We were.

[Chris Carter]

I ran into. During that time in Malibu. I was walking, and you pulled over with Taya and got out of the car to say something to me. Not something mean or provocative, but I remember out of the blue, I hugged you.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, yeah. I don't remember.

[Chris Carter]

I just hugged you. And it was almost like it was a reflex. It was. You know, I just did it, and I think it surprised both of us.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

I repressed it. Well, thank you. I got the resolution that I wanted. I didn't even know. And one of the things that I was touched about that you did, and it's really just a gesture, but it was a beautiful gesture to me, was that you were. I was number one on the call sheet, and you retired the number one, which was really nice.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

So moving on from that. But, you know. And then. And then also, I have apologized for this, but the last time we were shooting in Vancouver, we had a screaming match at one another. Like the. Probably the last time we've been on set together.

[Chris Carter]

I don't think we had a screaming match. I think I screamed at you. You were much. You were much more. You had much sang froid than I did.

[David Duchovny]

Well, what happened was it was the last time we've ever shot together. Which is. Which I don't want it to be the last time I ever shoot together, if only for that reason. And I was trying to get an early flight back home and we were going, as we always do, we were going longer. And I suggested that I would. On this one particular shot, that I would turn back and deliver the line so that you wouldn't have to turn around.

[Chris Carter]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

Which was going to be another 45 hour. Because you're turning all the way around.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And you rightly, as a director, got pissed off that I was trying, like, simplify your work and get out of there. And we had an argument about it.

[Chris Carter]

After 11 seasons, I just had it with you,

[David Duchovny]

so. And it was so uncharacteristic of us. It was because you're not a screamer and I'm not a screamer.

[Chris Carter]

It came out of nowhere for me. It was like one of those things where I just reacted. I didn't know I was gonna. There was no premeditation.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, well, but we've talked about that. But I think it might be interesting for people to know the cliche may be true in this case, is that we both do care. And it comes from that. You're trying to do the best work that you can do. I'm trying to get home. No, I'm trying to do the best work I can do and get home. Because that's what you actually learn over the time of being on a show like that is like, how to balance that. How do I work this fucking hard and continue to do good work? And I gotta, like, take my time when I can. But this brings me to your position. Oh, and this was another thing that we kind of were at odds about when you started Millennium, which was in the third year.

[Chris Carter]

Fourth.

[David Duchovny]

Fourth year of the show. So this is what we're talking about for your plate. And I don't think people. People will never work like this like you did that year in television. So I'm thinking if it's the fourth year, we did the first X Files movie when. Between the fourth and the fifth year,

[Chris Carter]

we were comparing it in the fourth year.

[David Duchovny]

Fourth year. So in the fourth year, you are executive producer in showrunning. Cause Morgan and Wong took over a couple years showrunning a new show of 25 episodes, probably X files of 25. These are 25 hours. So you are the figurehead responsible, the executive producer, the creator of these shows for 50 hours. 50 hours in one year. That's you're producing out of your body.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, it was, it was the hardest year of my life. I don't know how I made it.

[David Duchovny]

No, there's more. You were also preparing to shoot the feature film.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

The movie of your baby, the X Files.

[Chris Carter]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

I don't understand how you were able.

[Chris Carter]

And the thing that also, what people don't appreciate or can't appreciate because they've changed the rules is that we would often do 16 hour days.

[David Duchovny]

Well, yeah, that's us.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

I'm focusing right now.

[Chris Carter]

I know. On the.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, but I mean, it's hard to even imagine. And you're talking about, let's talk about success and failure. So that's. These are the fruits of success, that you're going to work yourself to death.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Beyond that. Trying to make sure. And I know this about you. You didn't want to have a lemon. You know, you wanted every show. It wasn't like, you see, most procedurals. I have to say, I'll watch procedural. And I'll go, yeah, it's good filler, it's a good placeholder, whatever. But no, the X Files and Millennium both wanted to have a movie worthy idea executed in 46, 7 minutes of television. And that you were taking that seriously as a commandment to yourself. So it is. I just wonder what your state of mind was in that year. And then I would apologize again because I was pissed off because I thought, Chris is not with us.

[Chris Carter]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

You know, Chris is like splitting my time. Chris is, yeah. Which is your prerogative. We all wanted to do other things, but I was like, hey, daddy's like, you know, got another girl cross down, you know.

[Chris Carter]

Well, I, you know, I didn't want to do another thing, but Fox came to me and said, you've got to, you know, this is, you know, your brand and, you know, run with it.

[David Duchovny]

And so that's how that all came out. Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

It wasn't an ultimatum, but it's this, this is what you should be doing.

[David Duchovny]

And in a way, that's the trap of success.

[Chris Carter]

It is. And even though I'm really proud of Millennium and, you know, I pulled the plug on Millennium too soon because we can talk about failure called Harsh Realm that I thought was going to be a hit. And I didn't imagine myself doing three shows.

[David Duchovny]

Three shows, yeah.

[Chris Carter]

So, you know, And a movie franchise as. Yeah, as it works out, I pulled the plug on Millennium and Harsh Realm didn't go. I, I want to tell you a story that came out of that. The writer, creator of Blacklist, John Boken Camp.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

Very nice, talented guy from Nebraska where I don't know why they just. The Nebraska produces these creative geniuses. He called me at some point during the Blacklist because I had, I had talked to him before he started the show and we, you know, discussed how it works. And he had never done a TV series. He called me some years, maybe five, six, I don't know how many years in, and said, look, you know, I have an opportunity to do something else. And I'm thinking about, you know, pulling the plug on the Blacklist. You know, I've done what I needed to do. And I said from experience, you shouldn't do that. If you've got something that works and you like it and people are invested in it, keep going.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And in fact, he did.

[David Duchovny]

Was it, Was it also, I mean, you're, you're kind of laying it at the doorstep of. You didn't see the future. You know, he's a harsh run you thought was going to be a hit. Millennium, you thought was kind of staying in its lane at that point. Three years.

[Chris Carter]

I mean, it had, I mean, rating,

[David Duchovny]

it did well enough. It was going to keep on going.

[Chris Carter]

It was, yeah, they would have gone with it.

[David Duchovny]

But was it not, was it not a desire to tell different kinds of stories? Did you see a different story in Harsh Realm that you were gonna be able to tell different kinds of episodes of television?

[Chris Carter]

I got excited about Harsh Realm because I got a chance to work with Dan Sackheim again, who had produced the X Files pilot with me. There were a bunch of us that I was excited to work with and I thought it was a really good concept and that's a story in itself. And so I thought it was. And I still think it was a little bit ahead of its time. Anyway, I thought it was going to be a winner. And lo and behold, I had made. I made two mistakes at the same time.

[David Duchovny]

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[Chris Carter]

Hey everyone, it's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin. You might know us as two of the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. We're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organization against Trump's regime. And this is what's the Plan? Your weekly guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back. This is not canned talking points. It's a real live discussion space for the pro democracy movement. We wrestle with strategy together.

[David Duchovny]

We take your top voted questions in

[Chris Carter]

real time and we talk about the most impactful actions we can take right now. Democracy is a participatory sport. The fascists win. When we sit on the sidelines. What's the Plan is about how we get into the game. What's the plan? Available Friday, January 23rd wherever you get your podcast, subscribe, recruit, discuss, organize and win. That's the plan.

[David Duchovny]

This is a character trait that I know in you is you really like to once you get a shape you like, you like to make that shape. You know, like with pottery, like. And once you get in the groove in a show, I don't think you're there like me, I'm going, I want to try something new because I'm not a detailed guy like you. And you are like, I'm going to make the perfect bowl. And once I do that, it's, it's hard to do that. It looks like it might just be a bowl. Let's just say, like, tell us what you did with pottery for a moment, and then I'll make that leap.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. This is a story about my serialized brain. I love working with my hands. And it's funny when you go into television and there is a manufacturing quality to the actually making of something. But when I was in high school, I'd done a little pottery and art class, and so I started playing baseball in college, and I wanted to take anything.

[David Duchovny]

Lefty. Lefty?

[Chris Carter]

Yes, lefty. I wanted to take any class where I didn't have to study too hard because I wanted to focus on sports, and I wanted easy credits. So I took a pottery class, and it worked out that my pottery teacher saw some native talent and he had a studio. I mean, this is. This guy lived and breathed ceramics, right? He had a studio, and he asked me if I would come make pottery for him. I quit baseball.

[David Duchovny]

You did? You quit?

[Chris Carter]

I quit mostly because I wanted to go surfing. But I. And I started making pottery for this guy, and I swear I would have done it for free. This is how much I liked it. And I got good enough at it that I could be called a production potter, which means I would sit for hours at a time and make the same thing over and over and over or the same six things over and over. And I loved it. People say, how did you do that? You know, I would sit once. I sat for 14 hours and made 300 pieces of pottery all the same. You know, you weigh things, you weigh the clay out, and you make the same thing over and over and over. I loved it.

[David Duchovny]

Well, that kind of jives with your love of flying as well, which, as you said, it's like. It's redundancy.

[Chris Carter]

It is redundancy, but there's a freedom in that. Well, I mean, it's about the process, and you have to. You know, David, I sent you that David Brooks piece. It's about the process. There's something actually meditative and, I don't know, engaging about doing the same thing over serialized. And what is television? It's serialization of a concept.

[David Duchovny]

It's so interesting to me because my brain is exactly the opposite from that. I'm always looking for that new thing. I don't have that kind of stick to itiveness that you have there. So I'm not gonna beat myself up for it, but it takes all kinds, I guess.

[Chris Carter]

Well, and, you know, I worked at Surfing magazine, as you know.

[David Duchovny]

Well, that's the thing. It's like. Well, we just talked about your anison mirabilis.

[Chris Carter]

What was it called?

[David Duchovny]

You know, like 50 episodes of TV and a feature film. But you were not a kid either. Like when you hit it as a writer, right? So there were so.

[Chris Carter]

Well, you know, before the X Files, I had worked in Hollywood for seven years. So.

[David Duchovny]

So what were you doing? Can we. Can we call those not failures, but like apprenticeships or. Who were your mentors? Who did you learn?

[Chris Carter]

Well, I was learning how to do the job.

[David Duchovny]

Who were you learning from?

[Chris Carter]

Oh, I had. Wonderful. My next door neighbor was James Mangold, who just directed the. The Dylan movie. I was. I was in the animation building at Disney. I had been hired. I'm not sure I'm telling this story kind of backwards. I was working at Surfing magazine. I met Dori, my wife, to be. And she was a screenwriter.

[David Duchovny]

So you hadn't thought of it before that?

[Chris Carter]

Not really. You know, I was a movie fanatic. And we can go back to the pottery again and I'll tell you about going to film. Whatever you want. Going to film school. Anyway, I met her and she, you know, we talked about movies and she said, you know, sound like you'd like to make a movie someday. I said, you know, I would. I have an idea. She says, write it. And I wrote the script. Luckily, as it were, her sister. I mean, sorry, her cousin. Her sister was actually a casting director. Noted casting director. Cast the first Star Wars, Diane Crittenden. Anyway, her cousin. Everyone was in Hollywood. Her cousin was an agent. And I showed the script to her cousin, her cousin showed it around. I took meetings. I was told that I should write a second script. I did. The next thing I knew, I'm telling you, I was a surfer in the morning, and by the afternoon, I was a Hollywood screenwriter. That's how crazy it was.

[David Duchovny]

Right. So what were those scripts that you came up with in that seven years before you hit it with the X Files?

[Chris Carter]

The first script I wrote was, you know, you know, I'm from Bellflower, and I wrote a script about three kids in Bellflower in the early 1970s who are baseball players who have no idea that they can get out of the Vietnam draft. And they're going to war because they don't know how to not go. They don't know about bone spurs. And the script is called National Pastime. So it's near and dear to me. It'll never get made.

[David Duchovny]

That was a pilot script or a movie script?

[Chris Carter]

No, that was a movie script. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know about television. Well, I knew about television. But it's funny, I say I went to film school when I was making pottery and I would have the TV on for 10 hours a day while I was making pottery. And it was a film school of sorts with all those great 70s shows. And so I kind of got in the swing of things that way.

[David Duchovny]

But not consciously in a way, you're saying.

[Chris Carter]

No, no, but I just, you know, and then I would listen at night, on Sunday nights. There was a show called Dr. Demeno on.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I remember that.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, I think it was KLOS. Yeah, yeah, KLO or KRLQ. And I loved it. I just, I loved the Dr. Demento Show. It was those novelty songs, you know, Steve Martin.

[David Duchovny]

I was introduced to Weird Al Yankovic type stuff.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, like, like that. But, you know, just wonderful nuttiness. And it, it, it's plugged into my goofy sense of humor.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I think, I think you're coming at things from not a. Not an ironic angle, but a parad, a parody angle at. There's part of that in you that is always there. Which is interesting when you think about the X Files, because it's not parody at all. It's more like prophecy in your case. But in terms of writing, you're talking about ingesting by osmosis in a way, while you're doing pottery. These 70s shows, there was no other mentor at that point that took you under his or her wing and said, hey, kid, I think you got talent, you know, because you're not a kid at that point either. Yeah, you're in your 30s, right?

[Chris Carter]

No, at that point I was about 26.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, okay. So you were a kid.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, I was. Anyway. Oh, I just, I. I had a moment. I had two moments. First of all, I was an art major when I entered college and that lasted about two years. And then I went down to the journalism department and said, how do I make this my major? Anyway? But I had a really fortunate moment episode in my life where there was a teacher, a writing teacher named Mr. Lackman. And we used to do Blue Book essays. Remember Blue Book essays? Anyway, I did a review of. Call it a review of Billy Budd Melville's Billy Budd. I wrote it and I remember calling Billy Bud self actualized. And it was like a term then.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And he got up and read it in front of the class and he said, after he read it, he said, I wish all my students could write like this. It was like one of those moments where it's like, you know, I was meant to do this.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. And then the second one was I had a. When I entered journalism school, I had a teacher named Dr. Stein, and I did a piece of journalism on a guy named Gaylord Carter. Gaylord Carter was maybe one of the most famous theater organists, so he would play the organ to the silent movies. Anyway, I got to know him and I did a story on him. It was perfect. You know, here's my subject. I know him. I can, you know.

[David Duchovny]

You share a last name.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. Big share last name. Anyway, so I wrote the piece and I handed it in, and I got like, a D. And he said to

[David Duchovny]

me, is that same teacher?

[Chris Carter]

Same teacher. He said to me wisely. He said, you let your subject get away. You know, you had him and you let him get away. There's nothing you tell me about him that I don't already know. And it was.

[David Duchovny]

I'm not sure I understand that.

[Chris Carter]

Well, he thought that I could have done a much deeper, more illuminating story than I did and was. Because I was a novice, I was a rookie, and I just didn't construct the story very professionally. And two years later, I had a journalism teacher. I gave him something to read, and he says, you're gonna make it. This is good. You're gonna make it as a journalist.

[David Duchovny]

But in that moment of getting the D. Yeah. What did you think?

[Chris Carter]

I. He was right.

[David Duchovny]

You just thought, he's right.

[Chris Carter]

No, he was right. And it was. You know, it was one of those moments. Fail better. Yeah, It. You know, I'm. I'm a hard worker and hate to hear the word no. And I wanted to. I wanted to be good at what I was doing.

[David Duchovny]

You know, I sent you that clip of Vonnegut Jr. Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

I love that.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. And, you know, the way he ends it is think of a teacher who made your life better.

[Chris Carter]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

And say the name to the person next to you and the audience. You hear it. You hear how loud it is.

[Chris Carter]

Right, right.

[David Duchovny]

And I come. My mom was a teacher. My sister's a teacher. My family are teachers. And, you know, it's cliche to say they're so important, but also, as a parent, I realized as my kids were going through the education system, it's really like lightning striking when you get. And it's not just the guy who's. Or the woman who's, like, in your corner and saying, rah, rah. It's also the guy that gives you the D. Yeah. And says, you can do better.

[Chris Carter]

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[David Duchovny]

For the fans. There was a time when. When Chris wanted Jillian and I to go to couples therapy. I'm not sure if he meant it as a fictional television couple or a real life couple that were trying to.

[Chris Carter]

No, you guys were at odds.

[David Duchovny]

Absolutely we were. This was very early too.

[Chris Carter]

Yes. And I mean sometimes on set and it was, you know, that kind of thing rocks a crew. You know, if there's tension and you guys are the center of the tension, if there is tension in that relationship, everyone knows it and it affects.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, yeah. I think the impulse was good. We should try and get along if we can. But just the idea has always struck me as so funny. The idea that we would go to couples therapy as fictional people, but we never did. The other one was one time you figured out an off screen line and it was too late to ask me. Cause I'd already done my adr and it was in squeeze.

[Chris Carter]

It was in squeeze. It was in squeeze. Season one.

[David Duchovny]

Season one. And Mulder finds Scully's cross.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And there's an insert of the cross, so I'm not on camera. And you. You in. Your voice recorded a. Damn it. You can give it to me now. Let's see how.

[Chris Carter]

Damn it.

[David Duchovny]

It's very close, you see, so. And I don't remember. How did I figure it out? Because I said I. I saw it and I. I never said that or

[Chris Carter]

I don't remember how you figured it out, but I remember your reaction, which was not good.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, you were. I was really pissed off and you were. I remember you being bemused. Not amused, but bemused. How could he be so pissed off?

[Chris Carter]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

And I think I just had this sense of like. Yeah, authenticity.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, sure, I understand.

[David Duchovny]

However I reacted, I mean, I'm sure it was. It was more than was. Was necessary. But it is funny to think back on that because now I would say. Yeah, you just go. Say it. Just say it. You know, like I'm somewhere else.

[Chris Carter]

I'm wrapped, damn it all you want.

[David Duchovny]

And then the widows and orphans, of course.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, right. That's. I don't want to talk about that.

[David Duchovny]

I'll just say it quickly because it's charming.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

It's not.

[Chris Carter]

I'm glad you find it charming. Now you find a charm.

[David Duchovny]

Well, no, it was just this revelation.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Because the way I'll tell the story, the way it goes for me, is I'm reading your dialogue for 20 years on and off.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And there's always ellipses. Dash, dash, dash. And in my mind, when I read a script like that, especially when it trails off at whatever in the middle of, I'm thinking there's a thought that's not being expressed. And I'm thinking, well, what is the thought that's not. And I'm always trying to fill it in, like, what's Mulder's thought that's not being expressed? That he's cut himself off? And when we were doing the reboot, I called you with a question and I think I said, what is. Mulder's. Clearly he's cutting himself off. What's the thought? And you said, oh, that's just. No widows or orphans. I was like, what? What does that.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, that's crazy. So I. People don't speak in complete sentences.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. No, no.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

These things made sense.

[Chris Carter]

No, it's like. And that's why I put ellipses and dashes.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Well, just to finish that story for those who don't know what a widow and orphan is. And. And I'm. You know, I've been around literature my whole life. I didn't know what it was.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

It's. When there's. In your chunks of dialogue, you wanted it to look symmetrical and so you would make sure that each of your lines added up.

[Chris Carter]

It's. You know, for me, it was an exercise because I always think if you can say it in four lines, you can. Exactly. Instead of four and a half, it's gonna be better and it's gonna be add to the.

[David Duchovny]

I buy that. I buy that. But it was a shock when I realized, oh, my God, I've been trying to. But. But good, because I. I feel like. Good that I had to question that.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

I didn't need to know the answer. The answer doesn't help me.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

But also it. It goes with my kind of philosophy that. That self imposed limitations which you're giving yourself, that has to look a certain way are actually ways to get at deeper meaning and freedom. You know, that you. You're forcing yourself like you were with your pottery. You're forcing yourself into some kind of a shape.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And yeah. You're feeling that shape.

[Chris Carter]

I'll read Quentin Tarantino script, somebody I admire. And it's the opposite. You know, it's just flowing and different strokes. It's different strokes. So, yeah,

[David Duchovny]

I wanted to get to this. This idea that I had when I was swimming this morning.

[Chris Carter]

Okay.

[David Duchovny]

And I've never thought this before, and I've been living with this character for a long time. This is what I came out of the pool with. And I had to go write it down dripping wet because I knew I would lose it.

[Chris Carter]

With your Sharpie? Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Let me preface this by saying, as I gave thanks to you for kind of giving me a structural education and storytelling, I was coming to storytelling in a completely psychological sense. Freud being the first literary critic. Not the first one, but, like, you know, Freud's a literary critic. It's Oedipus complex, electric. You know, all his syndromes and perceptions about the human brain come from literature. So as I was taught, like, psychology is literary criticism. So that's how I approached acting, was like, how do I psychologically fill this thing? And I think we complemented each other well in that way because you gave. You. You had. You had almost a. I don't want to. I don't. It's wrong for me to say pre psychological, but a mythic sensibility more than a psychological sensibility. Is that fair to say?

[Chris Carter]

Maybe. Here's. For me, the chemistry was that I was writing a smart character, two smart characters, and you were both smart people. And you're one of the smartest people I know. So it was. It was a dream. Dream come true.

[David Duchovny]

Okay. You didn't answer the question.

[Chris Carter]

That's fine. Maybe I didn't understand the question.

[David Duchovny]

No, it's. It's a compliment. I'm just dodging the compliment. That's my problem. But here's what.

[Chris Carter]

Cute, too,

[David Duchovny]

But. Oh, that was the other fail. I came. Chris wanted me to get this part. Yeah, right. So I had to test for it, though. I had to convince the suits that I was the guy. And there was a line in the pilot, in the description where you. You described Mulder as like, more MTV DJ than, like, FBI. So I was like, oh, he's a bit irreverent. Whatever. So I came to the test wearing a pig tie. Some reason I had a tie with these pigs on it. And I just remember your face when you saw. Cause you know, you're testing for a role. The executives are not imaginative. You should come in and look as much like that role as you can. And no FBI Agent is gonna be wearing a pigtie.

[Chris Carter]

Did you ever see what Gillian gave me? She gave me the sheets from those casting. The Randy Stone casting sessions where I had made my notes next to the actors.

[David Duchovny]

You know what I thought about Duchovny Pigtail. Fuck him.

[Chris Carter]

Yes. I said it was written simply. Yes. So I knew you were Mulder. And you and I actually. I don't know if you remember this, but we left the casting session. I actually talked to you outside. And I said, you're good. I want to take you to the network. And I said the stupidest thing. I said, I want you to start thinking like an FBI agent.

[David Duchovny]

Remember that? I remember that.

[Chris Carter]

Because maybe it was like, I'll show him. Maybe it was the pig ties later.

[David Duchovny]

I'll show him.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, right.

[David Duchovny]

Try to tell me to act like I'm not gonna. That's the last thing I'm gonna do, you know? How did she get a hold of those sheets? Jillian?

[Chris Carter]

I don't know how she. But her. Next to her name. It says test.

[David Duchovny]

Right. She go and test for us?

[Chris Carter]

Yes, but I. You have. I. We're jumping around here, which is maybe how it goes. But before I forget, you've got to tell that story about the triathlon.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, well, that's. It's. It's in my.

[Chris Carter]

Is it in your notes?

[David Duchovny]

It's in my list of stupid questions. I have these questions, and I have these stupid questions, which is my new. My new form. Stupid questions. There's a lot more stupid questions than There are questions that I think I told you.

[Chris Carter]

And I'd be sure to give you stupid answers.

[David Duchovny]

Stupid answers. So here's what I came away with psychologically. And it's a little embarrassing to think that I just thought of this 30 years after I started playing the part. I'm reassessing it. Mulder is traumatized by his sister's disappearance.

[Chris Carter]

Yep.

[David Duchovny]

And trauma is a word we use now. But we wouldn't. We might not have said that back then. We could say something like PTSD now. He failed to protect her. That's his trauma.

[Chris Carter]

Yep.

[David Duchovny]

He's failed. But now he's returning to the scene week after week and putting another young woman in jeopardy. And sometimes failing. Almost failing to protect her.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

As if he's trying to heal himself by protecting Scully in a way. He couldn't protect his sister. Yet he's also re. Injuring himself by putting her in danger. And sometimes even having to be saved by Scully. Saved by this sister Proxy. And I never thought of it that way.

[Chris Carter]

I never Thought of it that way either.

[David Duchovny]

What do you think of that?

[Chris Carter]

Yeah, I guess you, you could make a case for that.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

I don't know.

[David Duchovny]

I don't want to end on that. What I wanted to say was like, in terms of failure. I remember and this is another point of gratitude, the other kind of impetus for this podcast. It came out of my experience, my initial experience putting out House of D where this critic gave me an F. House of D gets an F. And that I woke up the next morning and I was like, oh, cool, I'm alive. But it hurt. Reception of it hurt. And I remember talking to you. Do you, you're nodding.

[Chris Carter]

I remember. Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

What did you say?

[Chris Carter]

I said, no one's thinking that but you.

[David Duchovny]

You said that. But you also said, I want to hear your big boy voice. Because I was so, I was so, it was like a gut punch. I think I was walking around for like a month.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Kind of talking like this. You know, I was like, I just could not, I wasn't breathing. I was like, I was in a shell. I was in a protective, non deep breathing shell.

[Chris Carter]

That's a, that's a Bill Carter instruction. That's.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, is it your dad?

[Chris Carter]

Well, he wouldn't have said that exactly. But it was like, yeah. You know. Right. You know.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, but I mean, buck up. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I'm not saying that to, to imply that you are callous or, you know, a 50s dad.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

But it was helpful to me.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And I think, I think we relate, we can relate to that kind of turtling up.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And there's a lot of shame involved in that, especially if you're coming off of a massive success. And, you know, we can, we can look at certain things that you've done if you want to consider them failures, you want to consider them something else if you want to talk about those things for a minute. But it could be instructive to people to hear your process of telling yourself that in a way.

[Chris Carter]

Okay. So I have two things that I want to talk about the after, but I also want to talk about the coming back. With season 10 or 11 on the X Files, I thought, why do I want to, to come back? What, what story do I have to tell? What.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Chris Carter]

I don't want to just come back and do a victory lap. I have something to say.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And I did a, I did a four part arc through two seasons to say all the things that I wanted to say. And the first story is a prelude to my point that I wanted to make. And the first story was called by the New York Times critic James Panawazik. I think his name. He called it a dud.

[David Duchovny]

And it's a brilliant critical term. Very instructive.

[Chris Carter]

Exactly. And then it was. The review was done as a conversation with another critic. Name. I think his name is Mike Hale. Mike, I think. Anyway. And he said, oh, I watched his pilot for Amazon and it was terrible. Terrible. Another good critic word. And, you know, it's those. That was a painful review in New York Times. Painful review to read. And particularly because the episode that he was referring to as a dud was the episode that led us to the ending of the following season. And the big point which I was delivering. It was all a plan. Was all veiled and complicated and get to the end. And no one got the ending. And I've already talked to you about this. That I loved. Laid it out there, but no one got the ending. It's a big. It's a huge ending. Yeah, but I. Scully reveals that she's pregnant. And it was. You know, I had a lot of haters for that. Scully didn't have agency. Scully. You know, it was a. You know, women are only good as mothers and. Anyway, I had a big idea and I put it right there front and center for people to make the connection that no one, literally no one made. And you know what it is? Because I told you, you were the only one I told.

[David Duchovny]

I haven't told a soul. He's taken an alien embryo out, so there's now an alien embryo on the table. I knew it would come to this. I was hoping it wouldn't, but I knew it would. Thank you for bringing him back. I haven't seen him in a while. Look good. Hate looking good. Okay, here's. It's kind of a lightning round, I guess, but that's gross. I just call them stupid questions. You don't have to answer them. What is the difference between believing and wanting to believe?

[Chris Carter]

Believing is a certainty. Wanting to believe is a doubter's line that a person wants to believe. Show me. The reason to believe is what the line means.

[David Duchovny]

It also says to me that we have a need to believe.

[Chris Carter]

Absolutely.

[David Duchovny]

We have a desire.

[Chris Carter]

I mean, yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. That's a human desire. What's the difference between surfing and writing? Writing and directing, writing and showrunning, show running and art, pottery and ceramics.

[Chris Carter]

It's all interconnected.

[David Duchovny]

Okay. You said something recently. Me? You said love is the only thing that matters.

[Chris Carter]

It is.

[David Duchovny]

How is men in their hair coming along?

[Chris Carter]

You Want to tell why you asked that question?

[David Duchovny]

No, you don't.

[Chris Carter]

I once told David long, long ago, 30 years ago, that my first novel was going to be called Men and Their Hair.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. You have been prophetic in calling the. In seeing where society was headed. To what do you attribute that to? Your twin muses of science and fiction? Science fiction.

[Chris Carter]

Science fiction. Yeah. Kind of. That.

[David Duchovny]

I think you're a pattern. You're a guy that looks for patterns.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. And it's just like, you see what's going. Doing the X Files was a perfect opportunity for me to talk about the world and my point of view in the world. Or I should say my. My competing points of view, which are science and faith.

[David Duchovny]

Why do you walk home along the train tracks?

[Chris Carter]

My wife told David a story. We were sitting at lunch, I think, and she told him that I. I always have adventures, and. Which is true. I just. I kind of put myself out there. I had been walking home a great. I was supposed to take an Uber, and I decided, no, I'll walk a little bit. And then I thought, I'll take the bus. No, I'll keep walking a little bit. Oh, I'll walk up by the train tracks. And I walk on the train tracks. And I'm walking in the middle of the train tracks on the railroad ties, and I'm thinking, probably not a great idea to walk on the. But I'll walk on the side of the. Of tracks, on the ties, and I'm walking along, lost in my thoughts, and whoosh. Without a sound. This train goes by me at whatever, 65 miles an hour. I don't know. I mean, it was less than a yard away from me, and it was terrifying. But one of the most exhilarating moments of my life, I think.

[David Duchovny]

I think you got a bit of Huck Finn in you. That's what I think. I think you're out there throwing rocks.

[Chris Carter]

I'll take it. I'll take it.

[David Duchovny]

Looking for adventures. And I think that's curiosity.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. And see, that's what producing is. You get the kids to paint the fence.

[David Duchovny]

But Huck didn't pay him. You had to pay him. How do you explain that? We had the exact same time at the Malibu Triathlon.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, yeah. David and I, we did a triathlon. And we.

[David Duchovny]

Not together.

[Chris Carter]

No, we didn't. Yeah, right. You went out.

[David Duchovny]

We were in different. I was in the celebrity.

[Chris Carter]

You were in the celebrity wing, whatever wave, and I was in the age group wave. And so we did it. And we don't know our times, because they're not published. And he calls me up the next day. You call me up the next day and say, you're not going to believe this, but we have the exact same times down to the second, to the hundredth of the second, to the hundredths of a second.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

And.

[David Duchovny]

And we never saw each other during the race. We fell into pace with one another.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

How do you explain that, Mr. Carter?

[Chris Carter]

Kismet.

[David Duchovny]

But do you remember what you said?

[Chris Carter]

Oh, yeah. You.

[David Duchovny]

You.

[Chris Carter]

You said, so we tied. And I said, no, I won. I'm older.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, well, that. Wait, what was that? Okay, when I was a kid, I was obsessed with dinosaurs. The Titanic, Leopold and Loeb, Mel Stottlemeier, baseball. Walt Frazier, basketball, Charlie Manson. So I was obsessed with dinosaurs, tragedies, sports.

[Chris Carter]

Sports, yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Is that similar to you? What were you obsessed with when you were a kid?

[Chris Carter]

Sports, for sure. I was a baseball fanatic. Doesn't go far enough. Thus the name Scully, after Vin Scully. Yes. Sandy Koufax was the left hand pitcher. I was. But dinosaurs. Yeah, I had dinosaurs as a kid. But I have to say, I think tropical fish was where I planted my feet.

[David Duchovny]

Did you have an aquarium?

[Chris Carter]

I couldn't believe it. I used to go to Tiki's Tropical Fish on Alondra Boulevard and it was like getting new fish. It was like. It was. I don't know, it was like going to the Caribbean. And, you know.

[David Duchovny]

Well, also knowing how you grew up, it was kind of a luxury item for you as well, right? Because it wasn't like your family had a bunch of money to put into tropical fish.

[Chris Carter]

No, I mean, it was, you know,

[David Duchovny]

you had to do your research.

[Chris Carter]

It was a kind of extravagant obsession.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, these are.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, yeah, I want to plug this because this person, Sweet Laurel, I have a little building in Santa Monica and it's got a bakery in it. And this woman not only does amazing work, she does it with all of her heart. And Sweet Laurel, all her stuff is in stores far and wide. She does cake mixes.

[David Duchovny]

And this is a nice way to end too, because, you know, most. Wait, most people will be coming on this to plug a movie or a book and you're plugging somebody else's work, which I love.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, I do need to make one plug here. This is maybe the most important plug.

[David Duchovny]

Sweet Laurel is the mix and the muffins favored by alien babies everywhere we are.

[Chris Carter]

I just got the go ahead yesterday to do a director's cut of I Want to Believe the second movie, and I can't tell you how excited I'm about this, because when we made you

[David Duchovny]

take shit for that movie, Right.

[Chris Carter]

Oh, big time. I made it too scary, basically. And I was told so by the brass at Fox, and they wanted a PG13 movie. So we cut it back to be a PG13 movie. And we thought, okay, we've satisfied their demands. The critics, the people who rate the movies said, no, it's not a PG13 yet. You've got to cut it back even farther. I can tell you that. You can do more on network television. They're more permissive than they are. The sensors are for the movies as well now. Yeah. And so now I have a chance to go back and make the scary movie that I always intended to do.

[David Duchovny]

Fantastic.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah. It's not just doing a director's cut to do a director's cut. It's really kind of bringing to life something that for me, was on the page and never got to the screen.

[David Duchovny]

That's awesome. I did not know that. And it made me think. Early on, I said, john Bartley, poet and a prophecy, which is something we used to sing to the. Give it Away, Give it away, Give It Away by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And it just reminded me the kind of what you're saying you can and can't do in terms of your movie. I've heard you say, and I think it's true that the reason that the X Files was so scary in the beginning was because we couldn't afford to show the scary things. It had to be Doc Dark. He was from New Zealand.

[Chris Carter]

That is a great story.

[David Duchovny]

And. And again, it's instructive, which we sometimes go for on this show, which is, you know, again, in limitations.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

You know, you don't need. If you have a small budget, you have to figure your way around the scare. And that's that explained or that drove. The X Files when it first aired was so dark compared to any other show on television. And I'm talking about literally. Yeah.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And that became its trademark and that became the art of it.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And that's an example where you're given a. A weak hand.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

A failing hand. And you turn it into a winner.

[Chris Carter]

Well, I. I hope you invite me back because we could talk about the X files for another 45, 90 minutes. Whatever.

[David Duchovny]

I'm done. I'm done. I just want to eat these muffins. Are they muffins?

[Chris Carter]

They are muffins.

[David Duchovny]

All right. Thank you, Chris. And, yeah, we should. We do come back.

[Chris Carter]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

In fact, maybe we'll just have. We'll get Jillian in here, we'll do a round.

[Chris Carter]

That'd be great. I'd love that.

[David Duchovny]

And we'll all talk about what we don't remember. It's been about a week since Chris Carter and I sat down and I haven't. I haven't jotted down any post thoughts. I think my brain was emptied. But having had about a week, I've been thinking about it. I didn't know that was the first time he ever did a podcast. Shocking in this podcast infested world, but he's not a He's never been a guy to call public attention to himself. He's never had that hunger. I'm sure like anyone, he has a desire to be recognized or appreciated, but never that sense in wanting to be out in front of and it made me think about the evolution of our friendship and our relationship because it is one of the major relationships of my life. As you know, when I quit the show, I was itching to do other things creatively. I wanted to leave home in a way, and I think I hurt him by doing that. And I regret that. I don't regret leaving as much as I regret hurting people that I left. And what I'm proud of for both of us, I think in this is that we have matured into peers and we are friends and equals now. Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like my thoughts on conversations with guests including Alec Baldwin and Rob Lowe. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts. Or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com Failbetter is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowland and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

[Chris Carter]

You know when you're just going about your busy day, and a voice asks

[David Duchovny]

you something like, why do people have crushes?

[Chris Carter]

Or do dogs know their dogs? The Brains On Podcast is here to help. Every episode answers tough questions with funny skits, cool facts, and more. It's a science show for kids of all ages. Whether you grew up with jfk, mtv, tlc, or tmz, Brainson is for you. Listening may induce uncontrollable laughter and turn backseat squabbles into harmonious car trips. Find Brainson Wherever you get your podcasts.