← Fail Better with David Duchovny
Fail Better with David Duchovny
Fail Again: Failure, Freedom, and ‘Friends’ with Maggie Wheeler
01:08:05
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- [00:00]
Podcast Narrator/Host
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- [00:37]
Hasan Minhaj
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- [01:50]
David Duchovny
I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Maggie Wheeler is an actress best known for her role as Janice and Friends. For those of you who didn't watch the show, for those three people out there, Maggie played Matthew Perry's first love interest. She had a thick New York accent and a laugh you couldn't forget. Maggie and I go way back. She was one of the first actors I ever met and she believed in me when I failed to. We worked together on a few projects like New Year's Day and the X Files and we even dated for a while. Way before any of that. Having known Maggie for so long, I've seen her fight really hard to land jobs that didn't come easy Even when things didn't work out, she took risks and stayed true to who she is, always. I'm extremely grateful for Maggie and her friendship in my life, and I hope you enjoy our conversation. Hi.
- [02:47]
Maggie Wheeler
Hi. How you doing?
- [02:48]
David Duchovny
It's a nice room you're in.
- [02:50]
Maggie Wheeler
Thank you. This is the Zoom Room, where I've spent many hours.
- [02:55]
David Duchovny
Yeah, I figured you had a good setup because of the voice work and all that stuff, so. Yeah, you sound great.
- [03:00]
Maggie Wheeler
Oh, good.
- [03:03]
David Duchovny
I just wanted to preface this by saying it's interesting for me to speak to somebody I know for so long and so well, because it would be you and Beghe, Jason Beghe that I've. That I've done this with, and because I get to, like, research you, you know, in a way that a friend would never do unless they were a paranoid, crazy, you know, single white female type of friend.
- [03:26]
Maggie Wheeler
Yeah, I got that feeling when you mentioned that you heard. You read the transcript from something the other day, and I'm like, oh, God, he's. He's actually looking me up.
- [03:33]
David Duchovny
He's. He's stalking Maggie. But that aside, you know, it's. It's. It's a nice thing to go through because I. What gets engendered is like a new sense of that person objectively, you know, that I don't have, that I didn't have, or that one doesn't have in life, really. You know, I don't think of you as Maggie Wheeler. I think of you as Maggie. And so researching and looking things up about Maggie Wheeler and stuff being brought to my attention, it's a wonderful thing because I realize what a fabulous person you are and what a interesting career and interesting person you are, which I always know intuitively, but I am reminded of different versions of myself as well, that we share. That we share going back. I share different versions of you in my mind. You have different versions of me in my mind. And it's not quite like ghosts, but it's an interesting kind of ringing. The changes, feeling the years in a way that you can't really put your finger on. It's just kind of the flavor, the atmosphere of the discuss. It's terrifying in a way.
- [04:47]
Maggie Wheeler
It's true. I mean, obviously, we've traversed many, many chapters together.
- [04:51]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Yeah. You are probably the main reason that I became an actor. And so it's your fault.
- [04:58]
Maggie Wheeler
It is.
- [04:59]
David Duchovny
And we have you to blame. But I wanted to say that, you know, your response to me back then, which I don't remember specifically, but I get the general tenor of it as I recall, was always so supportive and curious and helpful, which I took for granted back then. But, you know, it's very easy to imagine another situation in which a person would go, hey, that's my thing. Why do you. You know, because I was not when we met and when we were together, when we dated. I was a graduate student.
- [05:39]
Maggie Wheeler
Yes, you, Honor.
- [05:39]
David Duchovny
I was going to be a professor of English literature. And then all of a sudden, you know, and you're acting and singing and dancing and doing all the things you do, and all of a sudden I go, hey, I'm going to do that thing. And you were completely kind of, you know, non judgmental in a way that my parents, or my mother specifically, would not have been. And maybe this is a way to get into, you know, your childhood and your. And your decision, which would have been probably covert at first, like, oh, my God, I want to do this thing.
- [06:10]
Maggie Wheeler
Yes.
- [06:11]
David Duchovny
But I have these parents that might not be. It might not be, you know, first their checklist for what they want me to be.
- [06:17]
Maggie Wheeler
I mean, you know what I remember about that time, first of all, going back. Yes, my parents were definitely not thrilled about the idea that I was going to pursue this crazy career. And actually, it started before that because I was a child. I was in school. I wanted to go to theater camp. I wanted to go to professional children's school. I wanted to get this started very early. And I was told under no uncertain terms that I would not and should not do that. So I, you know, that was actually
- [06:47]
David Duchovny
a discussion that you. That you had. And they. And mom and dad said, I think
- [06:52]
Maggie Wheeler
my mother said, over my dead body will you go to a theater camp. But, you know, I just kept trying and finding ways to get around it. And those obstacles actually fueled my fire. And I was so excited every time I got to kind of break the, you know, the ban and join a theater company or take a class or be in a school play or do the things. I just kept following, you know, I just, you know, I was always a bit of a Super bowl, you know, just kind of bouncing back on the closed door, and I just kept finding ways to do that. So by the time you and I found each other, I was well into that. And, you know, I had a few close friends who were trying to do the same thing. But, you know, when I. When you and I were together and you were so steeped in your academia and you were in many ways not happy when you expressed an interest in exploring your. This other creative part of you, to me, it was Something to support and something to celebrate. And. And you were. And you did. You dove in, like I've seen you do over and over in everything that you've set your mind to. You just dove all the way in. You were dedicated. You were, you know, far more regular about taking class and doing scene work and all the things that by that time I was just sort of out on the sidewalk trying to get jobs. But, you know, watching you build your actor self was really something. And then, of course, you know, that leads us to a moment down the line where I was offered an opportunity to make a movie with Henry Jaglum. And he gave me a list of names of who might play my boyfriend, you know, the boyfriend that I would have been breaking up with in the film. And you and I were already broken up at that time, and he gave me the list and I just thought, no, you know, I sort of. Not that one. Not that one. Then he. And he did say, well, what about David?
- [08:53]
David Duchovny
Yes, and that's one thing I wanted to thank you for as well, because once that movie came out, and of course, Henry's movies only come out on two screens, one in LA and one in New York, so they're not. The general public isn't aware, but.
- [09:07]
Maggie Wheeler
Well, they were at that time.
- [09:09]
David Duchovny
They were at that time. And I got an, you know, I got an agent from that. You know, it was like I existed on film because of you. It was like There was this catch 22 back then. There weren't that many forums where you could go out and be seen. But I just wanted to go back to. Because I'm interested in the thought processes of a child that is in the process of breaking away from the parents or courting the censure of the parents. You know, and what is also interesting to me, because I know I knew your parents, I know your mom, and your mom is a lover of art. I mean, that your mom has been a powerful kind of tastemaker. That is true in the modern art world, that's true in the contemporary. So it's not like it's a push pull. When I think of it, it's like, why wouldn't. And the three of you were artists,
- [10:15]
Maggie Wheeler
you know, Pablo, I had three artists. And, you know, my parents were. My father passed away, but, you know, my mother's still alive. She'll be 92 this month. Very smart people. And their academic life was just, you know, an enormous and positive part of how they identified themselves as human beings. And so they gave birth to these three sort of radical Rule breakers. None of us graduated from college. Each one of us dropped out at a different point in time. Oh, wait, did my sister graduate? Maybe my sister actually made it through. I might be telling a lie. I think my sister made it through. Okay, I take it back, Jenna. I take it back. You made it through. You're the only one. I think. I think I have to double check. But anyway, I just, you know, I did not. I made it through a year. I think my brother probably made it through a year. My brother, who is not with us anymore, was a musician and a painter. My sister is a singer and a songwriter. And I, of course, I do all the wild things that I do. I'm an actor. I'm a song leader. I'm a children's book author. I'm a. You know, I'm doing. I always do. I'm doing a million things. So my parents got saddled with these three artistic children. Yeah, well, because I think none of their dreams that, you know, whatever that is about wanting your children to be an external representation of what you are, what you believe in, how, you know, when, you know, people look at your children and they know all of these things about you. I think we broke those. Mold that mold over and over again. And so, yes, my poor parents, like, they just didn't get that payoff. I mean, you know. Yeah, they really didn't. I don't know how else to say it, but, you know, I was at my mother's house recently, some months ago, and I went digging through a file cabinet and I found a folder full of my school reports. And there is one failing grade after another. I actually like Xeroxed. Why Xeroxed? Look how old I am. I printed one of them. You can't see these, but I'm holding one up for David to see. I printed a grade F report that I discovered there that it was not the only one. But wait, can I read this here on this podcast?
- [12:33]
David Duchovny
Because I want to hear what this asshole said.
- [12:35]
Maggie Wheeler
Yes. What does he say? He said Maggie's. It's very hard to read his handwriting, but Maggie's quiz and test grades are extremely poor. She is capable of doing very well. However, her interests appear to be in doodling during class, not in taking notes. With her many absences, she has failed to see me in the lab or made any attempt in catching up with all the work she has missed. Maggie must change her attitude or she will be taking this class again next year. And that was from my teacher, Mr. Nicolosi, at the time. But that is just one of many. And it was very late at night. I'm in my mother's house. I was just digging through an old file cabinet, reading one after another after another of these assessments of who I am and what I'm capable of.
- [13:19]
David Duchovny
Do you think you would have. That would have been shared with you at the time?
- [13:24]
Maggie Wheeler
Oh, yes.
- [13:25]
David Duchovny
Yeah, definitely. That was read to you, or you read that back then?
- [13:29]
Maggie Wheeler
I read them all.
- [13:30]
David Duchovny
How old are you then?
- [13:31]
Maggie Wheeler
This is 1974.
- [13:35]
Podcast Narrator/Host
So 14.
- [13:36]
Maggie Wheeler
You do the math.
- [13:38]
David Duchovny
13.
- [13:38]
Maggie Wheeler
Yeah. So anyway, there's a whole kind of book of them, and it really. I just thought about my parents, and I thought about what it is to have a kid who's failing routinely. And, you know, I was a super creative kid, and there was just no place for me to be rewarded for that, except in the theater where I wanted to be, or making jewelry or making art or taking a dance class. You know, that's where my heart was.
- [14:05]
David Duchovny
There's a. There's a lot of resilience in that pivot for you. Because, I mean, I'm sitting here, I'm sweating because that's. That's kind of the origin of this podcast was me getting an F on a. On a movie review and then me waking up the next morning like, oh, my God, I'm not dead. So that's what. That's what I thought failing meant in a way. You know, it kind of makes you stronger as a kid to get those Fs and go, well, you know, I'm still me. I'm still me. I'm still waking. You know, my parents seem to still love me. But I'm just wondering back then, you know, the shame, the. You know, like, what. Do you remember that? Do you remember. You do?
- [14:49]
Maggie Wheeler
I remember being told I was stupid and lazy. Those were the words that were, you know, shared with me frequently from teachers, administrators, and parents. Stupid and lazy. So, you know, and I feel for my parents when I read this stuff now. I think, God, that must have been so tough for them because they didn't have the flexibility of thinking, of thought or option at that time to think, oh, you know, this kid needs something different, where she's in the wrong place. She should be over here. You know, I don't know, maybe at a Waldorf school where I would have been making dolls and candles or whatever. I don't know what was available at the time, but they were very focused on where they had me in school and what that meant socially and publicly and all the rest. So there was no changing it was just a matter of getting through. But did it make me more resilient, I wonder? I mean, I consider myself relatively resilient. And that story that you tell about what started this podcast has happened to me over and over and over in my career, and especially, you know, and we'll get there chronologically or whatever, but when I got fired from Ellen, you know, I did have that, oh, my God, I'll never leave the house again. I think this is the end. And then I did. I lived. You know, I fell out of that plane without a parachute, and I survived, and I went on to do Friends and all the rest of the things that followed. But it's definitely at the core of how I've moved through the world, you know, these early years of being told, you know, that I was not capable of certain things.
- [16:26]
David Duchovny
Yeah. It's funny that you say I feel for my parents, because when I read that, I feel for you, you know, and I would hope that you feel for yourself as well.
- [16:33]
Maggie Wheeler
I do.
- [16:34]
David Duchovny
And I. You know, you talk about a school that would have suited you. I actually went to a school that would have suited you until third grade, when I went to Grace Church, which was more structural, more of a classic education. But I went to Downtown Community School, which was founded by Pete Seeger, and. And I know you're. I know. I know your love of folk music. I can recall giving a recorder recital of We Shall Overcome and Blowing in the Wind. You know, this was the school that was made for Maggie.
- [17:04]
Hasan Minhaj
Definitely.
- [17:05]
David Duchovny
It was downtown. But I'll say this as well, that a lot of. I think a lot of people respond to early. Early that stamp of early failure of not fitting in with a certain kind of anger, you know, and that kind of defines their rebellion in a way. And that is. I've never felt that from you. Maybe it's. You're being a middle child. You know, you're. You're. I think you're a born, kind of, let's get along person. As I said in the beginning, you're very nurturing, and. And you. You don't. You don't have that anger. So I'm sure it was somewhere, you know, I'm sure it felt like that somewhere. But early on, I think you turned it into some other kind of knowingness of where you were going to end up, and your rebellion was just in. I'm going to pursue what I'm going to pursue.
- [18:05]
Maggie Wheeler
I think that that was true. That's true. I went the only way that I followed kind of my soul And I did what I wanted to do in spite of it all. But I think that there's two things that I didn't inherently possess. One was this intense sense of competition. It's just never been the way I am. And the other was this. That kind of innate desire to please a teacher. And while I watched my friends crank out work and exams and studying for tests, et cetera, because they wanted the approval of the teacher, I didn't care. I didn't give a shit. I mean, I think I probably did, but I. I transmuted it into something else because I knew that I couldn't reach that goal. That was not how I was going to be rewarded. And so I stopped trying. And to that end, I think there were many. I mean, I was scared. It's interesting, because I didn't care to please them, but I was scared that I wasn't going to. So I was afraid of the failure. And I think that that fear often resulted in my mother staying up and doing my homework and in the middle of the night because she didn't want me to fail either.
- [19:18]
David Duchovny
Oh, right.
- [19:19]
Maggie Wheeler
So those D's and C's and F's that I have and my report cards are my. You know, I would have. They would have all been Fs if she had not written a paper or two along with.
- [19:29]
David Duchovny
I'm thinking, no wonder your mom was pissed off at the comments. It's like, hey, that's my shit.
- [19:34]
Maggie Wheeler
Oh, really? What do you mean? What about that great paper? Every now and then you'll see she wrote a good paper. She, you know, she did hand in such and such a piece of work. And I'm like, did I really? I don't. I'm not sure. But I have an old, old friend who did really, really well in school as a child. And she was my best friend for so many years and still very. We're very, very close. And she was told by the system that she was excellent. And she was also told by her family that she was excellent and that all the things she did were excellent. And so she got to a point in her life where she really had a lot of resentment for the fact that everybody said everything she did was excellent. Because when she got back out in the world and there was a bigger pool and more going on, she's like, oh, that's not. I'm not excellent. You know, whatever excellent meant to her, it was because she had been fed this narrative, and then she had to go up against people who were just as excellent, if not more I never had that. That did not happen to me. I never was like, oh, shoot, I'm not, you know. No, I was always like just climbing to get invited to the party. And when I did, it was like, huh? And it did happen. It happened over and over again as a result of a kind of, you know, I don't know, destiny, Magic, focus, work. Just believing on in something.
- [20:52]
David Duchovny
Talent. Yeah.
- [20:53]
Maggie Wheeler
And talent. Thanks. And then each time something, a door would open, I'd be like, oh, I got. I. What Me. I got. Oh, hi. Oh, me.
- [21:02]
David Duchovny
Oh.
- [21:02]
Maggie Wheeler
Oh, okay. Okay. I come. I'll do it. Foreign.
- [21:14]
Podcast Narrator/Host
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We're taking a moment to celebrate women and all that they carry at work, in relationships and families, and in the many roles they hold every day. Between caring for others and managing unseen responsibilities, your emotional well being can easily be overlooked. One way to give back to yourself is using therapy as a space to better understand yourself and your needs. Growing up, I saw that my mom
- [21:39]
David Duchovny
did not only to raise me and
- [21:40]
Podcast Narrator/Host
my siblings, but educate generations of New Yorkers. I still get stopped on the street by people who know me primarily because of her work. Think about how much you do every day. Therapy can help create balance, set healthy boundaries and support overall well being for everyone. Better Help therapists work according to strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. Your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com failbetter that's better. H E L p.com failbetter do you
- [22:25]
Chelsea Clinton / Gretchen Rubin
ever find yourself scrolling through headlines, especially health headlines, and just thinking that can't be true? Well, I certainly do. 2025 brought us some ridiculous far fetched health claims and some especially terrifying changes in public health. What's in store for us in 2026? I'm Chelsea Clinton and we're back with season two of my podcast, that Can't Be True. Follow along and catch up on season one. Wherever you get your podcasts,
- [23:16]
David Duchovny
Let's jump back to New Year's Day for a minute because that was like your first, like, well, big screen role, right?
- [23:27]
Maggie Wheeler
Yeah. I had just been on a television show. I had just done a season of a television show.
- [23:31]
David Duchovny
Was that the new show, which was
- [23:33]
Maggie Wheeler
the new show you and I were dating at that time?
- [23:35]
David Duchovny
Yeah, the new show, which was Lorne Michaels attempt at having a Saturday Night Live type Show in primetime.
- [23:43]
Maggie Wheeler
That's what it was.
- [23:44]
David Duchovny
That's what it was. And you were basically a Saturday Night Live player on this. You know, you were in the cast and you would play multiple characters. It was an hour long show. It was on a 9 o'. Clock.
- [23:58]
Maggie Wheeler
I don't know what time it was on, but for me it was like, it was heaven. It was my dream come true. And I remember I was visiting you at Yale when I got the call. And the reason that happened is because my sister's ex boyfriend's current girlfriend was working for Lauren and she reached out and said, do you want to audition? And I said, yes, I do. And she said, okay, well, you need to write six minutes of original standup. And you may not remember me crying in your college room, David, but I lost my mind. I was so distraught. I thought, here's the opportunity I've dreamt of. Like, I've crafted this opportunity in my dreams.
- [24:38]
David Duchovny
Had you thought about auditioning for SNL before that?
- [24:41]
Maggie Wheeler
It was.
- [24:41]
David Duchovny
Had you tried?
- [24:42]
Maggie Wheeler
No, no. I was just a kid, you know, I mean, I had no access, but it was there, like right in front of me. And I thought, how am I going to do this? How do I. I've never written six minutes of anything, you know, But I locked myself in my room and I did it and I got the job.
- [25:00]
David Duchovny
When you wrote those six minutes, that was character stuff, right? It wasn't like stand up. No, it was funny through character. And which. Do you remember? Which characters you played?
- [25:09]
Maggie Wheeler
Yes. I don't remember them all. David remembers everything. By the way, people, in case you
- [25:14]
David Duchovny
don't know that I don't remember this.
- [25:16]
Maggie Wheeler
You might. You probably will. But anyway, I created a sketch that was Julia Child having a conversation with Jacques Cousteau about sea bass.
- [25:27]
David Duchovny
Really? Yes.
- [25:29]
Maggie Wheeler
Where that came from, I don't know.
- [25:31]
David Duchovny
Well, I think I. I remember. You did. You would do a Julia Child.
- [25:34]
Maggie Wheeler
I did try sometimes to do a version of Julia.
- [25:40]
David Duchovny
I don't remember Cousteau. I don't remember.
- [25:43]
Maggie Wheeler
I don't know if I can pull him up that fast.
- [25:44]
David Duchovny
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:45]
Maggie Wheeler
But anyway, I did crazy things. I can't remember all of them, but I. I wrote, yeah, six minutes of character stuff and it opened the door for me. So then no callback.
- [25:55]
David Duchovny
That was it. Just, we want you.
- [25:58]
Maggie Wheeler
I had to do a lot of improv with some great people. With.
- [26:02]
David Duchovny
So it was in. The cast was John Candy.
- [26:05]
Maggie Wheeler
Well, the guest stars were everybody. It was just like a cavalcade of stars. But Dave Thomas, Valerie Bromfield, Buck Henry, me, Maura Moynihan. I'm forgetting people in the actual cast. Bill Murray's brother, one of Bill Murray's brothers, Brian Doyle. And anyway, a bunch of people. So I had to do a whole bunch of improv with people in front of Lauren and in front of everybody to get the job. After I did my six minutes, it was probably one of the scariest afternoons of my life.
- [26:43]
David Duchovny
Amazing that you were able to get it, though. I mean. Cause all those people, they know each other. They're all like, Chicago people.
- [26:49]
Maggie Wheeler
Yeah, they're all Second City, Canada people. So anyway, it was an incredible opportunity for me. I worked with everybody. I worked with Raul Julia and Gilda Radner and Kevin Kline and just. I mean, the stars that came on that show, Penny Marshall, Steve Martin, it was. But it was a dream that I got to do. That was a dream. And then it got canceled, and Lauren was probably. You know, it's not a happy memory for Lauren. It didn't. It was poorly reviewed. And, you know, for me, it's a happy memory because it was just the most amazing opportunity.
- [27:24]
David Duchovny
How many shows did you do?
- [27:26]
Maggie Wheeler
I want to say 13.
- [27:28]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Probably half a season. Right.
- [27:29]
Maggie Wheeler
But then on the night that it got canceled, a friend took me to a restaurant and I met Henry Jaglum. And at that point, I knew the show was gonna be canceled, and I thought I should go to la, because I had finally been on tv and I thought, now is the time. So I had to learn how to drive. That was not easy.
- [27:50]
David Duchovny
I know, I know, I know.
- [27:52]
Maggie Wheeler
That was tricky. And I learned how to drive, and I got my little hot license, and I got on a plane and I came to LA, and I was 25, I think, at the time.
- [28:01]
David Duchovny
So you meet Jaglum and it turns into this movie. This movie New Year's Day.
- [28:07]
Maggie Wheeler
Yeah, I met him on the last. The night the new show got canceled. We met at a restaurant. We sat and talked. And then he started talking to me about wanting to make a movie with me. And then I got a job. I was here for a year in la, and then I got a fabulous job doing cartoons for Rankin Bass, who brought us every animagic Christmas special that we all grew up on, from Rudolph to the Abominable Snowman to the whole. All of those misfit toy, all that stuff. And I got a great job doing cartoons for them. Also came through Lorne Michaels, because they reached out to him and said, do you have anybody you think would be good? And he gave them my audition Tape. So I have to thank Lorne for that. Great job. So I came back to New York to do the cartoons. Henry came back to New York because he was bicoastal, said, let's make this movie. And then the next thing you know, you and I were making a movie. David, our first movie, yours and mine.
- [29:00]
David Duchovny
You were wonderful in that film. And it really gave you a chance to, you know, be the center. You know, it was the three women at the center of the film. And, you know, I. I wonder how you think of that movie. Thinking. And when was the last time you watched it?
- [29:17]
Maggie Wheeler
Oh, my God. I think the last time I watched it was with you. Because we went and we did a commentary. Right. Didn't we do that with Henry together? That's the last time I've seen it. And at that point, it had been the first time I'd seen it since, you know, way, way back when. I haven't watched it in forever. But it was a really interesting process. I learned a lot. It was my first movie. It was in many ways, you know, the way he works, sort of autobiographical, kind of just pulling from life stories. And I did things, of course, as well as you did, to kind of veer away from that and create something that had enough fiction in so that it didn't feel like this bizarre kind of tell off.
- [30:00]
David Duchovny
It's funny that his. His style has kind of, you know, become almost mainstream. You know, you know, like it's not reality tv. But he. He. I think he was going against the artifice of acting.
- [30:15]
Podcast Narrator/Host
He was really.
- [30:16]
David Duchovny
He was really trying to get us not to act, it's true.
- [30:20]
Maggie Wheeler
And he would sort of get angry if he felt. I mean, there were many times he chose to shoot a scene. 40 times, one in particular on that mov. I don't. And then, of course, he used the first take. But. But. But more often than not, he would be nervous about that concept because he really. He wanted the authenticity, the immediacy. He didn't want actors to have a chance to think and start creating and start, you know, performing in any kind of way. So it made his. His relationship to directing very specific. In particular, because he wanted to get it, you know, quickly. I think it affected my relationship to my acting enormously. Absolutely. Because I was able to create a character and fill in all those spaces with my own thought process, with my own language, with my own. And in doing so, as you say, it kind of bypasses inauthenticity because you're present, you're in the moment, you're trying to figure it out as you go. And it's one of the beauties of improv, period. But to make a movie that way is very unique. And I. And it definitely changed the way I approached anything that came after.
- [31:27]
David Duchovny
Really.
- [31:27]
Podcast Narrator/Host
Yeah, yeah, that's.
- [31:29]
David Duchovny
Yeah. And I think it probably, you know, I've kind of longed to do improv since then. I've never. I've never done like actual kind of filmed improv. I mean, I've been improv, y', know, like there's been some improvisation from time to time. And the highest compliment that. That I receive sometimes is that, you know, whatever seemed improvised, you know, singing.
- [31:54]
Maggie Wheeler
I think it is a high compliment because it just. You're suddenly dropped into something that you don't question and that you just feel is real and happening.
- [32:04]
David Duchovny
So from New Year's Day, I guess we've. Well, we got some fun things here. We've kind of skipped over Star Search. We've skipped over Kid Danger in Skirts.
- [32:13]
Maggie Wheeler
Oh, my God. I will also, I just want to say, about New Year's Day, because we're talking about failure, I think it's important to say that.
- [32:22]
David Duchovny
Thank you. Thank you for doing my job.
- [32:24]
Maggie Wheeler
That, you know, that movie obviously was very successful for me and for you, launched you into your phenomenal career. And for me it was more of kind of this bright moment and I was able to do Johnny Carson and I was. Other things happened, but the focus was on you. And so that was a real. That for me, as a person, as an actor, as a human, dreaming and trying. I will never forget the night that they screened that movie at the Director's Guild because you were like, you know, it was like moths to a flame. And then I was standing there in the lobby, like, not quite, but it doesn't. And I. And I don't say that in any way. No, I don't hear it anymore because it's just Hollywood and it's just. As we talk about failures and successes, that was a moment that seared something in me that I then had to make sense of and grapple with in different kinds of ways. I've never, ever. It never. I thought you deserved all of that that came your way. And I. And I've. And I've always celebrated it.
- [33:43]
David Duchovny
You have?
- [33:44]
Podcast Narrator/Host
Yeah.
- [33:44]
Maggie Wheeler
But I remember for myself, it was like, oh, shit. You know, this is not going to do the thing I thought it was going to do. However, you know, in the long arc of a life, there's not a single moment where I look back and say, I Wish that had gone a different way for me. You know, my life has, like, unfolded and unfolded and unfolded as a result of every one of these, you know, hurdles, failures, whatever, these things, you know. Okay. I thought I should just say that.
- [34:10]
David Duchovny
Yeah, that's. That's profound, because I. I've never contemplated that. You know, I apologize for not being aware at the time or ever of that till this moment, you know, in. In. You know, stuck in my own narrative. I thought that whatever happened that night was about me as well. You know, whatever. You know, that was my life, and it was.
- [34:40]
Maggie Wheeler
It was about you as well.
- [34:41]
David Duchovny
But still, I. I come back to your magnanimity, you know, to have never brought that up to me. To have never. To have never even given me an inkling that I could have rained on your parade. I feel horrible.
- [35:08]
Maggie Wheeler
Oh, how nice. How nice of me to do that now. Forever. Recording.
- [35:14]
David Duchovny
It's okay. It's fine.
- [35:15]
Podcast Narrator/Host
That's good.
- [35:16]
David Duchovny
That's exactly what this is about. I know that I'm not responsible, that I didn't commit an act, a sin of any kind, but. But still, my heart goes out to you.
- [35:28]
Maggie Wheeler
Thank you, David. But you know what I would like to say while you explore it from that angle, you, in all the years beyond that, have been incredibly generous to me, have given me multiple opportunities to come back and work with you in the X Files three times in different roles, in different ways, which was amazing. And in Californication, which was phenomenal. And, you know, just different. You know, you've thought of me in those moments, and I feel like what
- [36:05]
David Duchovny
I owe you is not redeemable. No matter what I do, it doesn't make up for the opportunity that you gave me.
- [36:14]
Maggie Wheeler
Oh, damn.
- [36:15]
David Duchovny
No, it's true. And so, yes, and I didn't try to make those things happen because I was trying to pay you back. I try to make those things happen because I think you're great. And that my only disappointment was that I couldn't find something that really was perfect for you in any of those things, because I do feel like your talent is huge. And it's also. I also see it in a way that I wish that I could have been able to. What's the word? Take advantage of it, you know, let you run free in a way that you. Maybe you were able to do on Friends. Maybe you've been able to do, you know, in other times that you've felt it in your life, because. And that's not out of a sense of wanting to pay you back either.
- [37:10]
Maggie Wheeler
Well, I I, I, yeah, I, I hear ya, I hear you. I just think, look, we came into each other's lives and we changed each other's lives.
- [37:17]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [37:18]
Maggie Wheeler
And we had, and we've continued to do that in different ways and at different times, which is the beauty of, you know, a friendship, a relationship that's lasted as long as, as ours has.
- [37:39]
Leah Greenberg
Hey, everyone, it's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin.
- [37:42]
Ezra Levin
You might know us as two of the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. We're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime.
- [37:49]
Leah Greenberg
And this is what's the Plan? Your weekly guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back. This is not canned talking points. It's a real live discussion space for the pro democracy movement. We wrestle with strategy together, we take your top voted questions in real time, and we talk about the most impactful actions we can take. Right now.
- [38:05]
Ezra Levin
Democracy is a participatory sport. The fascists win when we sit on the sidelines. What's the Plan Is about how we get into the game.
- [38:11]
Leah Greenberg
What's the plan? Available Friday, January 23rd, wherever you get
- [38:15]
Ezra Levin
your podcasts, subscribe, recruit, discuss, organize, and win. That's the plan.
- [38:40]
Maggie Wheeler
All right, let's move on.
- [38:41]
David Duchovny
How this is now. It's Maggie's podcast now. This is good. I've, I've been looking for somebody to help me with this podcast. It's too much work for one person. I have found my co host, and it's Maggie Wheeler. I guess the failures that, and again, I was not, like, actively in your life at the time of these things. So these are things that I will be hearing about almost, I think, for the first time. Because these aren't discussions that we've had. No, you know, they're just kind of, you know, notes on a piece of paper in front of me. But they're your life, so I don't want to go into them, you know, blithely and say, hey, talk about that time you failed.
- [39:23]
Podcast Narrator/Host
I'm in.
- [39:23]
Maggie Wheeler
I'm in.
- [39:24]
David Duchovny
Yeah, well, the Book of Daniel, these friends of mine, and suddenly Susan, you mentioned yesterday. So these are our three, let's say, disappointments early on, right?
- [39:37]
Maggie Wheeler
Sure. I mean, the Book of Daniel was my first legitimate movie job.
- [39:42]
David Duchovny
This is after New Year's Day or
- [39:43]
Maggie Wheeler
before, you know, that's an interesting question. We gotta look that up. Cause I have no idea.
- [39:47]
Podcast Narrator/Host
You don't know. All right.
- [39:49]
Maggie Wheeler
I almost wanna say before. I think it was before. It's before.
- [39:51]
David Duchovny
I wanna say before.
- [39:52]
Maggie Wheeler
And I couldn't. It was scary and exciting. I was with Daniel Stern and Timothy Hutton and all these people. I can't even remember. It's a bit of a fever dream.
- [40:02]
David Duchovny
Sidney Lumet film, right?
- [40:03]
Maggie Wheeler
Sidney Lumet film.
- [40:04]
David Duchovny
I mean, legendary director.
- [40:06]
Maggie Wheeler
It was so exciting. And I was cut from that film. There is no evidence of me anywhere. And as I told David the other day, I didn't know that I was cut from the film. Nobody bothered to tell me. And I was there for the opening day in New York in the rain with an umbrella and a long line of people. And I said something. I said something to somebody. I must have seen someone from the crew or somebody who knew who was part of the project. And I said something about being excited, and they said, you know, you're not in it. And that's how I found out. Was standing with my wet movie ticket in my hand. So that, yeah, that was kind of. That was a big disappointment. It's so long ago. I don't remember much else, but I have obviously a very vivid moment memory of that moment in the line.
- [40:54]
David Duchovny
Do you get vertigo in those moments? You get that feeling, that woozy kind of feet not on the ground.
- [41:02]
Maggie Wheeler
Definitely, yeah.
- [41:03]
David Duchovny
Definitely hearing that. Yeah. It's an odd kind of physiological reaction, isn't it?
- [41:09]
Maggie Wheeler
Yeah, it doesn't feel good. So now we can just jump ahead to Suddenly Susan. So
- [41:19]
David Duchovny
here's my clever segue. Well, you were cut from the book of Daniel, but you made your own book of Daniel with your wonderful husband, Daniel Wheeler.
- [41:26]
Maggie Wheeler
Oh, yes, I did. That's right. Celebrating 35 years of marriage.
- [41:30]
David Duchovny
35 years of marriage. And anyway, let's go to the next fucked up situation.
- [41:35]
Maggie Wheeler
So, yeah, Suddenly Susan was a very interesting moment.
- [41:39]
David Duchovny
Is that before these friends of mine. We don't know.
- [41:43]
Maggie Wheeler
Oh, that's interesting. It's gonna be after these friends of mine. So we start with.
- [41:46]
David Duchovny
And by the way, you're not in it.
- [41:49]
Maggie Wheeler
I can't. It's really too hard for me to figure it all out.
- [41:52]
David Duchovny
So, Maggie, the podcast, our podcast is fantastic. It's the best one I've ever done. And by the way, you're not in it. Not in it.
- [42:00]
Maggie Wheeler
Okay. I, you know, I. I'm really bad with timelines. Jelly beans in the jar, how many when. As if this report card did not indicate that to you. And I'm going to bring it up again. If it's linear, it's not in my wheelhouse. So when the. What happens?
- [42:17]
David Duchovny
But I do it. Let's emotionally, emotionally feel your way through it.
- [42:20]
Maggie Wheeler
I can't. Let's start with the fact that I came out here. The Henry Jaglin movie was big success for an independent film. We were up for the Best Picture award at the Venice Film Festival. David, you may recall that we went
- [42:36]
David Duchovny
to Venice, filmed another movie.
- [42:38]
Maggie Wheeler
You did. I did not. I refused. But we were there, and that was great.
- [42:43]
David Duchovny
Again, just a better person than me. Just a better person than me.
- [42:46]
Podcast Narrator/Host
No, you know what? I was a whore.
- [42:48]
David Duchovny
Anything to get on camera.
- [42:50]
Maggie Wheeler
But I watched you, and I'm like, he actually has it right. Cause he is just saying yes to every opportunity. And it was like, you built this ladder. You built it by saying, okay, enough about me.
- [43:00]
David Duchovny
Enough about me.
- [43:01]
Maggie Wheeler
So any old way, we were in Venice, and that was a big moment. And so I signed with a new agency. And then a year into that thing, I hadn't booked a job, and they dropped me. And I didn't even know that was a thing. But at this particular agency, apparently every year, they would zoom through their Rolodex, and if you hadn't made any money, they were just like, we're done with you. So, bad choice. I made a bad choice. But at that time, I had a young manager named James Myrie, and he was an assistant to a different manager. But he took me under his wing, and he was my savior. He took care of me. He kept me moving for the six months that no agency would take me. And at the end of that six months, I booked Seinfeld. And when that came out, all of a sudden people were like, well, where has she been? Well, where has she been? So I signed with a new agent, and now it gets a little bit blurry. But suddenly Susan happens at the same time that I am being considered for Everybody Loves Raymond. And I've just. My eldest child is newly born. So now this has to be 29 years, 28 years ago or so. And I auditioned for Raymond, and I'm in love with the script. And Phil loves me and Ray loves me, and we all love each other. It's very Phil Rosenthal, Ray Romano. It's the most. My friend is sitting in the lobby holding my baby, and I am so excited because I think this script is so funny. And I just feel like I can see my future.
- [44:48]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [44:48]
Maggie Wheeler
And it looks that way for a minute. But shortly thereafter, it becomes clear that the network has a very different idea. They don't want somebody who is ethnic the way I am ethnic and whatever else. They have a whole host of reasons. At the same time, I get offered
- [45:09]
David Duchovny
suddenly Jewish Are you meaning Jewish?
- [45:12]
Maggie Wheeler
And somewhere in between here, before this happens, I think it is interesting to say and to tell that there was another show, the name of which I have forgotten. Yesterday I was trying to pull up the names of the people who helped me, but I can't remember their names now. I can remember the detractor, but I can't remember the creators off the top of my head. But it was a scene.
- [45:33]
David Duchovny
Well, there's an adolescent too. We remember what gives us pain, not necessarily what gives us pleasure.
- [45:37]
Maggie Wheeler
Absolute. And so I'm really mad that I can't remember the name of the person I want to recall right now. But anyway, point of this story is that there was another show that precedes all of this. They really wanted me. The creators of the show really wanted me. The head of the network at the time said that I was too Jewish and that in his words, he didn't think that I was. I don't know what I can say on this show or what I can say.
- [46:06]
David Duchovny
He didn't say fuckable is what he said.
- [46:07]
Maggie Wheeler
Yeah, he didn't think I was fuckable. So the people who created the show were determined to get me the job. So they started having like, it was like a Cinderella story. Do you remember this? And her name just escapes me for the moment. And I'm sorry if you ever hear this because you were so wonderful. But anyway, we go through these sessions and she tells me, never lean forward in your chair. When you're in this audition with this guy, with this head of the network, make sure you're back. And I'm doing this. David can see me doing this. Make sure your back never leaves the chair. Because this she said, she leaned forward and she said, this is a Jew. And she leaned back and she put her back on the chair and she said, this is a Jewess.
- [46:51]
David Duchovny
Oh, shit.
- [46:52]
Maggie Wheeler
And I was like, what the fuck? I don't. I'm never. I can't make it in this town. It's over. So anyway, that happened. Then they sent a wardrobe person to my house to look through my closet. They bought me a dress. They sent me to a salon and had my hair and makeup done. And there was a joke that they made when we were having these preparation sessions about whether or not maybe I should come in with a piece of a band aid or a piece of something taped over my nose as if I had just had a nose job. I mean, this went deep.
- [47:27]
David Duchovny
Wow.
- [47:28]
Maggie Wheeler
And of course I didn't get the job. It was given to an Iowa corn fed farm Girl that I went to college with. But. But I went through that. I went through that stupid fucking gauntlet to try to prove to somebody in control that I had value. Not the last, not the first, not the last one of many. So now we jump ahead.
- [47:52]
David Duchovny
I'm just taking a moment. I'm just letting my anger settle for you on your behalf.
- [48:01]
Maggie Wheeler
Yeah, I was angry.
- [48:02]
David Duchovny
I don't blame you.
- [48:05]
Maggie Wheeler
I was so angry, and I was so hurt, and I was so demoralized, actually, is what I was, like, profoundly demoralized, that I even let myself think that by saying yes to this process.
- [48:16]
David Duchovny
Of course you did. Of course you did. It was a dream job. Of course you said yes to the process.
- [48:21]
Maggie Wheeler
Right. So that was. That was. That gave me a taste of what was to come. So suddenly, Susan, I was offered the job, and. That's lovely.
- [48:29]
David Duchovny
Is this a regular on the job?
- [48:31]
Maggie Wheeler
It was a regular. It was the pilot with Brooke Shields and to be the kind of, you know, brassy body assistant. I think actually my whole job for the pilot was, your mom's on two, you know, your boss is on four, you know, your friend is on three. Like, I think that's all I had to do. But I was offered the job. And they were in the process of negotiating the terms of that job when Phil Rosenthal called me and asked me if I would come and read for the network for Raymond. Not that I was going to get the job, but because he felt like there were things happening behind the scenes that were upsetting him because it was being taken away and people were making decisions over his head about who was gonna play Rhea's wife. And, of course, let it be said that Patti Heaton was absolutely brilliant in that show. And it was meant to be that
- [49:36]
David Duchovny
she who I was in Beethoven with, of all things.
- [49:39]
Maggie Wheeler
Oh, yes, of course.
- [49:40]
David Duchovny
She's terrific.
- [49:41]
Maggie Wheeler
I mean, all love to Patty Heaton for all the years of so much laughter that she brought to the world. But at that time, Phil asked me, as a friend, a new friend, if I would come and read for the network so that they could see how he imagined his show.
- [49:59]
David Duchovny
That's a tough position to be in, Maggie.
- [50:02]
Maggie Wheeler
It was tough, but I felt so fucking honored because I loved this piece of writing. That to me, that moment when you get something when so much.
- [50:12]
David Duchovny
I gotta say, it speaks to your character. But go ahead. It speaks to your character.
- [50:16]
Maggie Wheeler
Well, to me, there was.
- [50:17]
David Duchovny
That's not the normal. That's not the average response. I guess the average response says, fuck you. You don't want to give Me, the job. Fuck you. You know, give me the job and I'll come read it. Fuck you.
- [50:28]
Maggie Wheeler
I don't know. To me, it was, yeah, yes, I will do that. You know, just artistically, creatively. To walk into a room to read with Ray, to be in that. To read language that felt so, you know, organic and right to me, to be able to be funny. The things that I yearn for, you know, to be given an opportunity. And many people will tell you, you know, when you're an actor and you know, that the audition is all of it. It's not the rest. Have a good time. You're gonna go act today. So for me, not only was it an opportunity to do that, but it was an opportunity, in a way, to say fuck you to everybody sitting in the audience. Because even though they didn't want me, I was still there. I don't know. There were so many layers. And so I said yes. At the same time I was being. This thing was being negotiated for, suddenly, Susan, they got mad at me. They were not happy that I was gonna go do this. Even though there was no chance that I was getting the job. I was doing it as a favorite to Phil Rosenthal, who I felt, so. I felt so strongly about what he was doing and who he was and this connection that we all made so quickly and all of that. So they were mad, and then they said, well, if you go, we are not going to pay you. What we said we were going to pay you. And so that's what they did. They docked. I said, then do it.
- [51:46]
David Duchovny
Covering themselves in glory. Once again.
- [51:48]
Maggie Wheeler
Covering themselves in glory. So they paid me less than they said they were going to pay me. I did what I wanted to do, and then I went and I did that job. And then they fired me, which, oops, big not. That's not a big surprise. But they fired me and they. I was replaced by Kathy Griffin. And that was the first of several times in my life when I've been replaced by kind of body redheads who, you know, I think sometimes people might look at me, would look at me and think that I could fill those particular shoes, but really, they're right.
- [52:19]
David Duchovny
The redheaded shoes.
- [52:19]
Maggie Wheeler
The redhead shoes. But the redheads are out there waiting in the wings from everything I get fired from. Yeah. So then that's that little, little story. And then we move on to Ellen.
- [52:34]
David Duchovny
Before we move on to Ellen, I just. Again, I want to take a moment and just. You touched on forgetting. Like, forgiveness and forgetting is such an interesting kind of a tandem. You Know. And as I have these discussions, I realize I don't really know the difference, and in many ways is. I'm not sure anybody does. And forgetting used to be, as you said, you think, I've got this amazing memory. And that's been something that I've been very proud of and very kind of protective of. But again, I think I could forget more and it might be a healthier thing. And there's something about a memory that's holding on to certain things that is not living in the present in many ways. And I think as we move on in our lives, I'm continually fascinated by the distinction between forgiving and forgetting. But also just your good nature, you know, just your good nature. I want to applaud again.
- [53:31]
Maggie Wheeler
Thanks.
- [53:32]
David Duchovny
And
- [53:34]
Maggie Wheeler
I don't know whether having a good nature is, you know, it's character.
- [53:38]
David Duchovny
It's character, Maggie. It is. It's character, which is.
- [53:41]
Maggie Wheeler
I'm just saying, I'm not sure what. In this town. I'm not sure that the payoff.
- [53:45]
David Duchovny
I don't care about in this town. I'm just talking about in the life in human history. Having character means something to me.
- [53:51]
Maggie Wheeler
Thank you.
- [53:51]
David Duchovny
And it means a lot. And I think also what I wanted to say at one point during our discussion is, and it's clear from this discussion is, you know, you've made a career out of. You've had to get every job that you've gotten. I got a job, X Files, that enabled me to get lots of. I can't remember the last time I auditioned. You know, so it's the jobbing actor. I think that's what the English called him. You know, just a person that has had to continually fight, fight, fight, fight for a role continually worked. I don't think people understand who aren't actors, what a fraught and difficult and tenuous existence that is. And I think, again, let's just say it goes back to your resilience. Character, whatever, it ain't easy. And, you know, it's. It's also. It's. It's. There are other things that are harder. Yes. And we're not here to get sympathy. But I will say this as the artist that you are, to have to go into that business and to continually prove yourself over and over again. Every job that you get, that's something. That's something in and of itself that isn't seen, that will never be seen.
- [55:07]
Maggie Wheeler
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, sometimes when I talk to young actors and talk about what this is, this thing, you know, I feel like, on some level, it's sort of an accelerated sort of. I mean, maybe spiritual path is a little bit too lofty, but just in terms of, like, you know, coming to know oneself, you know, you are constantly one. Depending on your circumstances, one is constantly confronted with the question, what is my worth? What is my value? Is it seen? Does it exist in the. Does it exist because that person says it exists, or does it exist regardless of any of this stuff? And so for me, that has been my life's work as a human being. It makes me a little emotional to say it, you know.
- [56:00]
David Duchovny
Yeah, yeah, sorry.
- [56:04]
Maggie Wheeler
To constantly take that back. Yeah, and say, sorry, everybody. And now she cries. I cry every day. So this is. It was just my. It was my time. I've been awake too long without crying. But, you know, that. That. That's my work, is to take that back and know that my value extends. The source of it is not that. And it extends way beyond whatever assessment is made of me by anyone who has the power to say yes or no to me.
- [56:33]
David Duchovny
And I'll corroborate that. And I'll say this, that the part of you that you found early in your life is the part that wants to come out and play, you know, and that's what you are. And when you said that thing, this is a good day. I get to audition, I get to act. That's the part that is the purest expression of what an artist and what a playful, creative human being is. And it's not the ego involved in the success or the failure, whatever. And. And, you know, you can look at yourself and know that you came to play, you know, that's what you came here to do. Absolutely.
- [57:07]
Maggie Wheeler
I'm doodling. I'm doodling in history class.
- [57:11]
Podcast Narrator/Host
You're still here.
- [57:13]
David Duchovny
And bless you, you know. All right, let's go to Ellen.
- [57:17]
Maggie Wheeler
All right, let's go to Ellen. So I, after six months of no representation, I book Seinfeld. Fucking awesome. I mean, I am so excited. And I go and I do this show, and it reminds me how much I love being funny. And it reminds me that all I ever wanted to do when I was little was to be funny. And that after New Year's Day, while I spent a lot of time trying to be taken seriously and trying to get, you know, dramatic roles and trying to. And I did do a bunch of different things along the way that felt great and, you know, whatever. LA Law, like, just different kinds of things where I had a chance to kind of stretch out in different directions, but funny Is, you know, you love to laugh.
- [57:59]
David Duchovny
You love to laugh.
- [58:00]
Maggie Wheeler
Yeah, I love to laugh. I love to make other people laugh. So I walk onto that set, I have a great time. I'm quite nervous, really, because I'm in there with the big heavy hitters, but I just felt high the whole time. And then, of course, it puts me back on the map. And as a result of that episode airing, Carol and Neil Marlins, who are creating a show for Ellen, they see this Seinfeld episode, they get an idea to include me, and they write their script with my name in it, which then they changed to Cynthia. But when I got my script, it was. Every now and then it said Maggie. And I thought, that's weird. You know, like, what's that? So then I start this process of auditioning, and it seems to be going. Going wonderfully well. And we're doing these chemistry reads, and they're going wonderfully well. And it's so exciting. And I. With each moment that I am excited, more excited about it, I'm more terrified because, you know, all the chapters that we can't cover on this podcast, all the times that I got all the way to the finish line and got rejected there by network, you know, that is what's in my. But my. My blood, you know, And I am so. I'm so. Again, here's this thing that just feels like it's mine. And I'm so scared for that moment where the suits and ties say, yeah, not her, you know. So at the time, I'm reading the Course in Miracles, Marianne Williamson's Course in Miracles. And there's a moment where I open this book randomly and I open to this page, and it talks about the idea that if you are consistently being met with some kind of rejection in your life, that you might want to consider the notion that you are carrying that story into the room and that everyone else is just agreeing with what's already there. And that, to me, was like this revelatory moment where I thought, that is what I have carried along from my childhood, that I don't belong at the party, that I'm not cool enough, that I'm not good enough, that I'm too Jewish, that I'm too this and that. And if I am so good at my craft, and if I'm sorry, so, so good at what I do, I can fool you and you're going to let me in. So that's what happened in that moment when I read that thing. Like, oh, my God, it's me. It's not them. Which, by the way, it's them, but it's also me. It was also time to bust this kind of negative idea that I was also secretly caring that I hadn't taken responsibility for, that I hadn't named. So here I was, like, I'd gotten all this way, and it seemed like it was done, a done deal. But I knew what was coming, and I knew that's where it could all fall apart. I read this thing, I have this epiphany. And then about 20 minutes later, my phone rings and it's my agent. And she says, are you sitting down? And I said, no. And she said, well, you should sit. And so I sat and she said, you got the job. And I said, what? And she said, you got the job. I said, but I didn't go to the network. And she said, that's right. You don't have to go to the network. You just got the job. So that, to me, that moment in my life, I can't ever forget that moment. I can't forget that, like, this kind of moment that I had this kind of quantum leap in my consciousness and that this kind of cause and effect thing that happened right afterwards. You could call it anything, you could say it's just batshit. But for me, it was like the magic of when the universe works.
- [61:42]
David Duchovny
I thought you were gonna say, I told my agent, fuck it. No, I'm gonna go in an audition. I'm gonna win this thing. And then you went in and you didn't get it.
- [61:48]
Maggie Wheeler
David says, it's in my character. I go, anyway. Anyway. So that's what happened. I got that job without going to the network. The good news is that's what happened. The bad news is they don't like it when that happens because they like to pee on the tree. And they like to say I chose them. And they like to say those things. It's not. You don't make friends when you get to skip that.
- [62:07]
David Duchovny
But that's not in your thought process at all at this time.
- [62:09]
Maggie Wheeler
No, not at that time.
- [62:11]
David Duchovny
Why would you think that?
- [62:12]
Maggie Wheeler
It became clear. Clear. So. And then. And then, you know, as things began to sort of unravel on that show because of, you know, there was a lot of tension behind the scenes, and all kinds of crazy things happened. And then. And then they started changing my character in the script, writing it differently, creating different scenarios again. I had to do some really weird, humiliating shit.
- [62:32]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [62:34]
Maggie Wheeler
And then I was really confused. And there was one writer who was kind of of behind the scenes on my team, and Talking to me about it and telling me what was actually happening. This writer was kind enough to give me the heads up and say, like, this episode is your test. If you can't do this, they're gonna fire you. But I spoke to the creator of the show on the phone at night at home, and I said, what's happening? You're rewriting this character completely. What's happening? And he said to me, I think I made a mistake when I hired you.
- [63:09]
David Duchovny
Jesus Christ.
- [63:10]
Maggie Wheeler
I think it was a mistake because I saw you in the Jaglan film, and I. And I thought you were funny, but I think maybe comedy is not your Milia. And I thought, you know, nice Maggie who. You know, the lion doesn't roar that often. But I was just like. I didn't say it, but I was just thought, fuck you. You know, you don't get to tell me I'm not funny. You. So that's what I felt in every cell of my body. They fired me from that show. It was incredibly sad for me. It was my first really big public job. Everyone knew it was gonna last forever, one way or another, and it was really heartbreaking. I was humiliated. I was sad. I was so embarrassed. I never wanted to leave the house again. And then came Friends, you know, Like, I got through that. I licked my wounds. The audition for Friends came up, and I felt free, and I felt like I knew exactly what to do with that audition. And I didn't have to edit myself, and I didn't have to do anything. And it wasn't about getting the job. It was what we were talking about earlier. I'm like, I'm gonna go fucking have a good time.
- [64:18]
Podcast Narrator/Host
Right?
- [64:18]
Maggie Wheeler
And I went in there and I brought her to life. And I did that because, as you know, David, we know her.
- [64:24]
David Duchovny
I knew her before you knew her
- [64:26]
Maggie Wheeler
a long time ago.
- [64:28]
David Duchovny
When I saw you doing that on that show, I was like, I know that. I know that one.
- [64:32]
Maggie Wheeler
But that was it. It was like this liberation, this moment of total liberation.
- [64:36]
Podcast Narrator/Host
Yeah.
- [64:37]
Maggie Wheeler
Without any expectation. We didn't even know what was Friends. It was just, you know, I think I was on the third episode. They may have known, but I didn't know. It was just a nice.
- [64:45]
David Duchovny
No, I don't think anybody knew. I don't think anybody knew at that point. And then. That's 10 years of doing that. How many episodes did you do?
- [64:52]
Maggie Wheeler
I don't know. Know.
- [64:53]
David Duchovny
Yeah, a lot.
- [64:54]
Maggie Wheeler
Yeah. I don't know. Friends fans know. But it was a beautiful thing that happened after something. After something really, really, you know, difficult.
- [65:07]
Podcast Narrator/Host
Yeah.
- [65:08]
David Duchovny
My hope is that, you know, we can, we can find the 60 minutes of this conversation that we've had probably close to two hours, and, and that people can get a sense of who you are beyond what they might know from friends or whatever, because that's a certain kind of. I see you out there talking about it and I say, oh, yeah, well, that's kind of a piece of Maggie. But there's so much more to you and to your career, and I just hope that people get a sense of the resilient person and the, the, the fighter, really, and, and, and the, the team player and all those things that we've touched on. So that's my hope. That's my hope.
- [65:54]
Maggie Wheeler
David, you're a rock star. Thank you so much. I, I love what you're doing with this podcast.
- [66:01]
David Duchovny
Thanks. Thanks, Maggie. I love you.
- [66:04]
Maggie Wheeler
I love you.
- [66:05]
David Duchovny
Let's get together in person. Oh, and it should be said that this entire interview was done with Maggie having a broken arm. So that should be taken, taken into account and scored accordingly. This was all. Everything she said was with a broken arm.
- [66:19]
Maggie Wheeler
That's right.
- [66:20]
David Duchovny
I'll talk to you later, Mac.
- [66:21]
Maggie Wheeler
Okay, love you. Bye.
- [66:35]
David Duchovny
Hey, just some thoughts after my discussion, my conversation, my reconnoitering, reconnection with Maggie Jacobson Wheeler. You know, Maggie and I have been close. We've. We've drifted apart, we've been close, we've always stayed in touch and, you know, to kind of experience firsthand again, you know, things that we went through, but also than the life that she led afterwards and to go through the successes and the losses of that and to chart them together as friends. That's the wrong word, right, because she's associated with that show.
- [67:21]
Podcast Narrator/Host
But
- [67:25]
David Duchovny
to chart it and to feel it again and also just to be so damn grateful that I had the good fortune of meeting Maggie when I did. Her being an actress and me seeing that it was a possible life, that it was an aspiration that human beings could have aside from academia. And then to realize how lucky I am to have her as a friend. I've been lucky as a human being, historically to have Maggie as part of my life, almost my entire life. We were there and we were witnesses in many ways. We've witnessed one another's lives, families, careers, and have great love for her. For that. There's more. Fail Better with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now and Apple podcasts.
- [68:37]
Podcast Narrator/Host
Fail Better is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.
- [69:34]
Lemonada Premium Announcer
Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcast. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium are you looking for ways
- [70:08]
Chelsea Clinton / Gretchen Rubin
to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.
- [70:25]
Maggie Wheeler
That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer
- [70:27]
Chelsea Clinton / Gretchen Rubin
and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.