Fail Better with David Duchovny

Episode: "Fail Again: Failure-ish with Kenya Barris"
Date: January 6, 2026
Guest: Kenya Barris
Podcast by: Lemonada Media

Episode Overview

In this candid conversation, host David Duchovny sits down with Kenya Barris—creator of Black-ish, filmmaker, and podcast host—to unpack the realities of failure within both life and the entertainment industry. The episode delves into how failures—and the fear that accompanies them—shape creativity, parenting, morality in art, and personal growth. Both Duchovny and Barris open up about their private and professional setbacks, the evolution of their creative voices, and the pressures of expectation in win-at-all-costs America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Journey Through Failure in Show Business

[03:47–08:36]

• Eighteen Pilots Before Success:
  Barris discusses the grind of having 18 television pilots not get picked up before finally landing with Black-ish.
  • "They're failures in the sense that if they don't work, they're failures." – Kenya Barris (04:13)
• Learning the System:
  He reflects on “pandering” to networks by whitening characters and situations, recognizing in hindsight that authenticity resonates more.
  • "I used to write pilots... and I would change the characters into white characters because I wanted to make this sell...I started just—I was pandering." – Kenya Barris (05:04)
• Turning Point:
  Real success came with embracing his true story and assembling a powerful, authentic cast.

2. Structure, Character, and Voice in Comedy

[08:36–12:51]

• Duchovny praises Barris for his collaborative, structure-focused approach to directing.
• Structure and recognizable character voices are critical for both comedic and dramatic storytelling.
  • "You need the skeleton. If you get the skeleton and the right people together, then you can work from it. But you need the structure." – Kenya Barris (09:23)
• Casting’s Importance:
  Authentic voices and strong casting bring stories to life. Barris credits television's grind with teaching him how to write unique voices for characters.

3. Acting, Satire, and the Black Experience

[15:46–19:56]

• Acting Out of Fear:
  Barris acted for the first time out of fear on Black AF, learning humility and gaining empathy for actors.
  • "I did it out of fear... You can rob me with a camera if you wanted to." – Kenya Barris (15:57)
  • "It taught me so much about writing… We write words sometimes and we're not realizing that someone has to read these words and act this out." – Kenya Barris (17:20)
• Black Satire:
  Noting the rarity of grounded black satire on television; compares his approach to Chappelle, Pryor, and others.
  • "Our stuff is—we have to be broad... we don't get to take satirical things... and make light of them from a grounded but honest place." – Kenya Barris (18:10)

4. Guilt, Family, and Artistry

[42:54–47:30]

• Duchovny notices the thread of fatherhood in Barris’s work; Barris attributes much of his humor and insight to the guilt and complexity of being a father, especially after divorce.
  • "As a father, all I could think was just like, you just start to feel like your job is to protect your family... but your job is also to provide. Sometimes those things don't coincide." – Kenya Barris (43:53)
• Both discuss the challenge of parenting in a changing world, trying to prepare children for realities they themselves can barely navigate.

5. Morality & Responsibility in Storytelling

[27:44–36:24]

• Duchovny and Barris debate whether creators owe audiences a particular morality.
  • "Morality is a spectrum... the idea of a lack of morality is... a form of morality." – Kenya Barris (29:01)
• Barris warns against cultural policing in art and politics, stressing the value of provoking thought over providing easy answers.

6. Mass Appeal and Audience Connection

[36:24–39:41]

• The truest form of artistic success is reaching a broad audience, not just one’s own cultural or social group, while maintaining authenticity.
  • "The true definition of us as artists, inside of us, of success is mass appeal." – Kenya Barris (36:24)

7. The Private Side of Public Figures

[39:58–41:40]

• Barris describes the internal “policing” within black creative circles—there’s anxiety around criticizing each other publicly due to ongoing challenges for mainstream acceptance.

8. Failure, Fear, and Creativity

[53:04–56:10]

• The fear of failure is bound to creative pursuits but can be motivating, keeping artists present and engaged.
  • "The moment you don’t feel that— the moment you don’t have that little bit of fear... you’re probably done." – Tracy Ross as quoted by Barris (55:59)

9. Divorce, Relationships & Learning Pauses

[58:38–61:34]

• Duchovny and Barris share candid reflections on their divorces, the difficulty of returning to relationships after splitting, and the wisdom of pausing between reaction and response.
  • "Between a reaction and an incident, there lies a pause. And in that pause is like a world of everything." – Kenya Barris (59:49)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Owning Failure:

  • "They're failures in the sense that if they don't work, they're failures." – Kenya Barris (04:13)

• On Authenticity:

  • "Once I stopped pandering... I got Laurence Fishburne... Anthony Anderson... For him to come and really embrace that character... It just really helped." – Kenya Barris (06:06)

• On Collaboration:

  • "Actors are magic." – Kenya Barris (12:36)

• On Fear and Growth:

  • "I did it [acting] out of fear... confront your fear, really." – Kenya Barris (15:57)
  • "Fear gives you more life, you know, it makes you aware... On that side of failure, if fear and failure are brothers, it does bring you into the present moment." – David Duchovny (54:49)

• On Parenting and Guilt:

  • "Anybody who says differently is fucking lying... you love all your kids the same, but at different times, you like them differently, right?" – Kenya Barris (45:36)

• On Creative Responsibility:

  • "Morality is a spectrum. If a character is corrupt and lacks what we consider positive morality, that is his morality.” – Kenya Barris (29:01)
  • "If we're not worried about being moral... but what you do actually compels someone from the inside... then you are a success." – Kenya Barris (35:14)

• On Diversity in Black Filmmaking:

  • "There haven't been enough black filmmakers, writers, directors, and creators, that we can feel like there's an open... we can speak openly and be critical of one another in public." – Kenya Barris (40:00)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:47] – The marathon of failed pilots and what changed with Black-ish
• [06:06] – The perils and recognition of pandering vs. authenticity
• [09:23] – Structure as the backbone of storytelling
• [15:46] – Acting as a leap of fear, and empathy for actors
• [18:10] – The challenge of Black satire and breaking the mold
• [27:44] – Morality in art and responsibility to the audience
• [36:24] – Mass appeal, audience, and vulnerability of writers
• [39:58] – The unique pressures of Black creators in public criticism
• [42:54] – Fatherhood, guilt, and the roots of creative inspiration
• [53:04] – Jerry West documentary: creativity, fear, and the drive to do justice to a story
• [55:59] – Fear is a sign: “the moment you don’t have that... you’re probably done.”
• [58:38] – Divorce, self-examination, and the power of pausing before reacting

Tone & Style

The conversation is open, warm, and marked by dry humor. Duchovny’s gentle introspection and Barris’s candid, vulnerable self-deprecation establish an honest and generous rapport.

Summary

This episode is a masterclass in how failure—and the willingness to own it—can drive personal and creative growth. Kenya Barris and David Duchovny dismantle the stigma around failing, arguing instead for authenticity, reflection, and the crucial messiness of both art and life. The discussion touches on the realities of show business, the burdens and joys of parenting, the complexities of representing your community, and the ongoing negotiation between fear and creativity.
Whether you’re a parent, a creator, or just someone trying not to let your failures define you, this conversation will leave you inspired to, in Beckett's words: "Fail again. Fail Better."