Fail Again: Griffin Dunne — An Actor Builds Character

Summary

Fail Better with David Duchovny

Episode: Fail Again: Griffin Dunne — An Actor Builds Character

Release Date: March 10, 2026
Host: David Duchovny
Guest: Griffin Dunne

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Fail Better" dives deep into the intertwined themes of family legacy, creative ambition, trauma, and the nature of building character through failure. David Duchovny, who has a personal friendship with guest Griffin Dunne, explores Dunne’s new memoir Friday Afternoon Club, delving into the Dunne family’s complex history—marked by literary brilliance, Hollywood glamour, tragedy, and resilience. The conversation pivots between personal and generational failures, the peculiarities of growing up in a family of storytellers, and how both men have grappled with self-definition, pain, and ultimately, finding their voices as writers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family, Storytelling, and the Making of a Memoir

• Dunne’s Family History:
  • Griffin’s aunt, the iconic writer Joan Didion; his father, producer and writer Dominic Dunn; and his sister Dominique, the actress whose murder was highly publicized.
  • The challenge and allure of piecing together family lore: “On my father's side, the Irish Catholic side…I knew from my father growing up…He was very vocal about being a child of abuse…On my mother's side...the men were philanderers and adulterers and drank heavily and led a life of such scandal.” (Griffin Dunne, 04:34)
• The Ethos of Turning Life Into Material:
  • Duchovny and Dunne discuss the writer’s compulsion to observe, recall, and use life events as creative fuel.
  • Quote: “Everything is material.” (Griffin Dunne, 08:16)
• Family Transparency Through Writing:
  • Both grew up learning about family drama through columns and novels.
  • Memorable anecdote: “We found out they were thinking about getting a divorce by reading it in the column…” (Griffin Dunne, 09:19)
  • Embarrassing moment: The story about Griffin’s masturbation listed on his to-do list at age 11, later immortalized in his uncle’s writing—humor highlighting the lack of privacy and deep observation in a writerly family. (09:20–10:35)

2. The Artist’s Dual Role: Observing vs. Living

• The Observer's Dilemma:
  • Duchovny reflects on how both acting and writing can lead to observing life rather than engaging in it, sometimes at the expense of intimacy.
  • Quote: “Sometimes I think I've achieved intimacy through my work at the expense of achieving intimacy in my life.” (David Duchovny, 12:17)
• The Compulsion to Step Back:
  • Dunne describes internalizing experiences for future use rather than fully inhabiting them in the present:
  • “I will experience something and then remove myself from the experience maybe while it is happening, and go. I got to remember this.” (Griffin Dunne, 13:11)

3. Channeling Trauma: Dominique’s Death and Its Legacy

• Griffin’s Approach to the Book’s Hardest Chapter:
  • The looming, deeply personal narrative of Dominique’s murder—how writing it forced Griffin deeper than retelling the story ever could in conversation.
  • Quote: “Writing about a particular experience…be it traumatic or hilarious…I would stop and go, God, I can't believe that really happened.” (Griffin Dunne, 14:00 approx.)
• Transforming Grief into Advocacy:
  • The murder’s effect on the family, particularly his parents—his father’s turn to writing as a form of activism for victims’ rights and his mother’s role in changing laws (Marcy’s Law).
  • Quote: “They took this injustice…the killer…served three and a half years…They each in their own way tried to make something positive come out of that.” (Griffin Dunne, 22:15)
• Writing as Understanding:
  • Griffin gains deeper empathy for his father’s compulsion to speak publicly about Dominique’s death, something he wrestled with as a son.

4. Intergenerational Impact, Vulnerability, and Closure

• Closure as a Myth:
  • Duchovny and Dunne both reject the Hollywood trope of “closure.”
  • Quote: “There's no such thing. Ridiculous word.” (Griffin Dunne, 24:42)
• On Being Fully Known:
  • Dunne reflects on the exposure his book brings, to himself and especially to his daughter, as well as the complexities of being the subject or offspring of such writing.
  • Quote: “It's a complicated thing, I think, to read…especially if the writer who's your father is very much alive. Yeah. To read about his life and everything that led up to your own being born.” (Griffin Dunne, 29:24–30:41)

5. Fame, Failure, and Self-Definition

• Their Shared Journeys:
  • Duchovny brings up how fame can never heal the wounds of family or self, sharing his own experience of trying to make his mother happy through success.
  • Quote: “Because fame is seen as a cure all by many that don't have it. And those that get it, they can see the failure of fame as a liberation.” (David Duchovny, 46:45 approx.)
• Griffin’s Struggle with Success and the Industry:
  • Using producing as a retreat from the pressures and emptiness of acting fame; feeling like a “tremendous failure” until he saw his career as a whole by writing about it.
  • Quote: “I went through a lot of self-flagellation about how I screwed up…You know, when I wrote this book… I kind of finished the book and went, huh, that's kind of an interesting career. I did a lot there.” (Griffin Dunne, 38:47–39:49)
• Failure as Redirection:
  • Duchovny notes, “If you don't fail, you're going to continue doing the same thing…If you fail, you've got to bust out some other doors...Sometimes those things are more suited to your soul in that moment.” (David Duchovny, 39:49)

6. Masculinity, Resilience, and Earned Character

• Dominic Dunne’s Journey:
  • Griffin details his father’s personal downfall—ruin, alcoholism, public humiliation—and eventual transformation into a man of character and strength.
  • Quote: “No one should ever have to find themselves at such a cost. And he got sober and he became a man.” (Griffin Dunne, 34:02)
• Defining True Masculinity:
  • Duchovny and Dunne agree resilience is the core of earned manhood—and character.
  • Quote: “Another word for [masculinity] would be character earned…You have to grow into it…because of the resilience, because you've fought your way through just walls of shame and humiliation and, you know, in failure.” (Griffin Dunne, 43:49)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On turning pain into something useful:
  • "I understood what he was doing...he became a really strong spokesman...They each in their own way tried to make something positive come out of that." – Griffin Dunne (22:15)
• On failing better:
  • “If you don’t fail, you’re going to continue doing the same thing...If you fail, you’ve got to bust out some other doors.” – David Duchovny (39:49)
• On parental approval and the limits of success:
  • “I realized...this was my...greatest try to...to make her happy. My greatest attempt to prove that what I was doing, acting, also was legitimate and that it was somewhat pathetic in that way, but also...moving...the failure of fame as a liberation.” – David Duchovny (Approx. 45:56)
• On growing into yourself:
  • “I didn’t become that actor, but I became something else.” – Griffin Dunne (41:49)
  • “You became yourself.” – David Duchovny (43:04)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Growing up in writing/storytelling families: 04:12–11:18
• On observing, not living: 12:17–15:12
• Processing Dominique’s murder through writing: 16:05–22:15
• Closure, grief, and continuing narrative: 24:12–29:24
• Parent/child legacy, exposure, and pride: 29:24–33:04
• The pitfalls and redemptions of fame: 33:04–39:49
• Redefining masculinity/character: 39:49–45:34
• Duchovny’s personal reflection on parental approval: 45:56–47:00

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Episode Takeaways

• Failure is not a tragic ending, but the force that shapes character, redirects lives, and inspires stories to be told honestly.
• In creative families, life is lived twice—once in the moment, and again on the page or screen, with all the exposure and complexity that brings.
• Trauma and loss, authentically processed, can become the greatest acts of advocacy and empathy.
• Fame cannot heal childhood wounds, but failing to be healed by fame can sometimes be a liberation.
• Resilience, not surface success, is the real legacy that can be passed through generations.

This episode is deeply honest, at turns funny, painful, and reflective, offering listeners much to ponder about family, art, grief, and the lifelong work of “failing better.”

Transcript

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[David Duchovny]

Fail Better is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are the things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Griffin Dunn is a friend of mine. He's an actor, he's a producer, he's a director, and now he's an author. Man after my own heart. He's just written the Friday Afternoon Club, which he calls a family memoir and there sure is a lot of family to cover. Griffin's aunt was Joan Didion, the masterful new journalist, author of the White Album, Slouching towards Bethlehem. His father, Dominic Dunn, was a decorated and well connected TV producer who lived a closeted life but eventually found his people as well as his passion, which was writing. And Griffin's sister Dominique was a burgeoning actress and star. You might remember her from the 1982 film Poltergeist. She was tragically killed, murdered by an ex boyfriend in a very high profile criminal case. Most people have not seen as much Hollywood glamour or grisliness as Griffin did in a few years. And his roles as both participant and observer have led to many stories, many losses, and of course, many lessons. It was very on brand that there was a massive tech failure that I didn't cause. I don't think this big Microsoft outage, whatever the hell that means. When we were trying to start our interview, it took a while, but we got it all sorted in the end and had a wonderful conversation. And here it is. It's the ongoing story of me and technology. It's not a love story.

[Griffin Dunn]

Let's just say that I have a similar relationship. I'm an Analog dude.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, yeah. If there was something before Analog, I would be that I'm a Bronze Age man. Where are you?

[Griffin Dunn]

Manhattan in Studio on 26th Street. And nice, nice walk from my house.

[David Duchovny]

Well, let's get the important facts out first. You live in the building that I grew up in.

[Griffin Dunn]

That's right.

[David Duchovny]

We're not going to say the name or the number, but that's true, is it not?

[Griffin Dunn]

Well, everyone knows because there's a plaque out front.

[David Duchovny]

You know, obviously there's a tradition of storytelling in your family and around your family. And I was wondering when you set about to put things in order in this book, how much of it was just, oh, recollecting this story and that story and how much of it was research and how much of it was tracking down other relatives and saying, what are you. What, what's the story with this story with you?

[Griffin Dunn]

Well, it was, it was a little bit of each on my father's side, the Irish Catholic side, that I knew from my father growing up. He was very vocal about being a child of abuse, beaten by his father, who he loathed. He was a very prominent doctor. And he spoke about his love for his grandfather, who was a guy named Dominic Burns, who had an incredible story of at 11, crossing the Atlantic from Ireland during the great famine and became sort of the. The patron saint of this Irish slum who would give loans to other immigrants. And so that one I knew. But the research I had to do on my mother's side of the family, I sort of heard so many outrageous stories about them. I didn't know what was true and what wasn't, that the men were philanderers and adulterers and drank heavily and led a life of such scandal. Those are My roots, baby,

[David Duchovny]

those are some twisted roots. There are so many similarities to me about the milieu, the writing milieu in which we grew up. I think we. We both grew up in a. If not a. If not a writing than a storytelling milieu. You know, that we. That. And. And there's a saying that goes, God gives stories to those who can tell them, you know, and that's what I kept thinking when I was. When I was reading your book. But my dad identified himself as a writer as well, and in fact, left my mother when. When I was 11 to go live in the Chelsea Hotel because he said, I've got to write. I've got to write my book, when, in fact, he was actually leaving for another woman, but that the COVID story was I need to write.

[Griffin Dunn]

And did he get caught?

[David Duchovny]

Well, no, he came back. He couldn't. He couldn't continue the lie forever. I guess, you know, that. So when he. When he came back for his last suitcase, that's when he broke the news to my mom that the Chelsea was kind of a ruse. But he did publish the novel when he was 75, and he died at 76. So for me, it was this amazing story of kind of delusional, but also perseverance that he did it, and resilience, in a way.

[Griffin Dunn]

And what was it like reading it? Did you remember stories that he was retelling, or was it like a completely new personality?

[David Duchovny]

You saw, he was writing fiction. Fiction like it was fiction. So it was called Coney. And it was a quite a good novel. It was well, well reviewed. And, you know, it's. It's very interesting that you asked that, because. Yes, I'm. I'm reading it as an adult, and I'm. I'm just looking for parallels. I'm looking for what sounds familiar. You know, I'm looking for myself.

[Griffin Dunn]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

But for me, I didn't start writing until my mid-50s, trying to publish till my mid-50s. And I spent so long not writing because I still, somewhere inside, identified as a writer. I don't know that I would have said that, but I don't know if it was my dad's death. I don't know what it was that actually turned the switch on for me. And I said, you know what? I've got to do it. I've got to do it now. And I was wondering with you, what was it that said to you, griffin, who's been a writer all along but hasn't written, what was that irritant. What was that inciting incident?

[Griffin Dunn]

Well, it's very similar to what you were just describing about what got you to finally write. When I did the documentary about my aunt, Joan Didion, and I traced her life and her history, I saw an outline for my own life that was a possibility. But when my father died, who was the last of. Well, it was first John, my uncle, and then Joan, and then my father. Sorry, the other way around. Joan was last. And in time, I just let that. Well, you know, all the. My perspective of their lives and their childhood. And I think with the distance, I sort of had the freedom to. Not that I was gonna write anything that they would have particularly disapproved of. Because one thing I did learn from them as writers is everything is material.

[David Duchovny]

You know, that's something that you say. You quote Joan in the book. She says, a writer is always selling somebody out.

[Griffin Dunn]

He's always selling somebody out.

[David Duchovny]

And I want to talk about that because that's a very deep position to be in within a family. Within a family of writers as well.

[Griffin Dunn]

Yeah. We would find out what was going on. And, you know, John and Joan had a alternate monthly column in the Saturday Evening Post, and we would know what was going on in their personal lives by reading this. We found out that they were thinking about getting a divorce by reading it in the column, which Joan was thinking of leaving John. But John edited the piece that Joan wrote about leaving him. I had grown up reading books that John would write where I would appear. Something that I told him or that he heard that I did that was very embarrassing to me. He would write it and put it in the book.

[David Duchovny]

That was the fact that you had put masturbation as a to do thing on your to do list.

[Griffin Dunn]

Yes. My early.

[David Duchovny]

I just want to continue embarrassing you with that story, which is a fantastic one.

[Griffin Dunn]

And, you know, I was a list maker, and I got caught with a list when I was 11, 12.

[David Duchovny]

And in your defense, it was number seven on a very extensive list. So it wasn't number one exactly.

[Griffin Dunn]

No, I had. It was a full day in New York. So, yeah, it's all material.

[David Duchovny]

What kind of a consciousness does that build? I'm not saying that that's not the way to parent or the way to family, but it is certainly a way. A different way to family to exist within a family, to grow up on some level knowing that you're being watched, you're being recorded, you might be fodder for something. And also to grow up like that's a legitimate person to be. Is somebody who looks around at things as fodder as material.

[Griffin Dunn]

Well, that's how I kind of looked at it. I mean, I was fascinated by their sense of observation. They were. You know, John and Joan in the. In the late 60s and 70s were the most glamorous couple I had ever known. If I wasn't related to them, I. I would have thought just the same. They were right at the center of every cultural moment in music. She was writing about the Doors, and, you know, John was like. You know, he'd been to Vietnam and, you know, writing about the war. And they gave these parties which, you know, for Tom Wolfe and Janis Joplin would come to their parties, and it was a very heady experience in their. And their writing. I would see how they would use things that I saw, and then they would write about the same incidents I saw, but from their point of view. And I was always so impressed by that. And when I came time to write my book, I tapped into that. I thought of myself as a journalist of my own life, of getting the facts right.

[David Duchovny]

Do you know what's fascinating about that is. And I've been thinking about this a lot as an artist with a family. You know, your job is the observation of the world and the observation of nature. Your job is somewhat removed from the world and maybe even from intimacy a little way, in a slight way. And sometimes I think I've achieved intimacy through my work at the expense of achieving intimacy in my life. And sometimes when I speak to someone like you, who grew up in a family like that, who has also lived a life like this, as an actor, you're observing. As a writer, you're observing. You're not always living and you're not always extending the courtesy of not observing to the people that you love. You know what I mean? I'm just feeling them. I wonder if you have felt that push and pull throughout your life.

[Griffin Dunn]

Obviously, I have, indeed, where I. I will experience something and then remove myself from the experience maybe while it is happening, and go. I got to remember this.

[David Duchovny]

What is the root of that in a person? Not necessarily in you, but if, you know, what is it in us that pulls back into ourselves?

[Griffin Dunn]

Yeah, I think it's. I think there's a bit of narcissism maybe involved because you kind of. I think I felt, even as a kid and growing up, that I was seeing things that weren't particularly normal and that things that were happening to me were rather unusual. And I grew up very, very fast, and it was really important to me to kind of shed my youth. And so I Put myself in all sorts of grown up situations as a young, young person. And I would take myself out and go, oh my God, I'm really doing this, or I gotta remember this. And all of those experiences went somewhere to some sort of memory bank that when it came time for me to write, it was all there. They all just came flooding back. And sometimes I would be writing, I'd be in the moment, writing about a particular experience, be it traumatic or hilarious or something, and I would stop and go, God, I can't believe that really happened. And I dive back in and do it. You know, reading the book for an audiobook, I, I would be struck with that all the time. I take myself out, just, I'd have to take a breath, just go, God, that's.

[Chelsea Clinton]

Do you ever find yourself scrolling through headlines, especially health headlines, and just thinking that can't be true? Well, I certainly do. 2025 brought us some ridiculous, far fetched health claims and some especially terrifying changes in public health. What's in store for us in 2026? I'm Chelsea Clinton and we're back with season two of my podcast, that Can't Be True. Follow along and catch up on season one. Wherever you get your podcasts,

[David Duchovny]

I can only imagine the surprise for you as you started to write this book, you know, as, as you started to change your thinking from speaking these stories to writing these stories down and how that thinking, how that feeling changes when you do that. But as I think you put it in the book, you know, you realized early on where you were headed and why. The real why of why you had to sit down to write this book was her. Aside from all the wonderful stories and people who you lost on the way and who you talk about, who you write about beautifully in the book. But in a way, that's a beautiful perception that you have early on. You know, like the headlights, you know, you can see what's up ahead. And I wonder what that, what that moment was like and the presence of it, the presence of her. And now as you finish the book, you speak of another grief and now you bring the book up and there's a different kind of talking about her in the book. And now even you're maybe coming to the end of talking about it. Yeah, because the book's been out a while. You've fucking talked till you're blue in the face about this. And I thank you for doing that.

[Griffin Dunn]

I've been all over the country, all over. I just got back from here and speak in auditoriums.

[David Duchovny]

Right. So that's kept her with you. And now as you see the prospect. This is a long ass question. It's not even a question. I don't know what it is. But you see the prospect of no more talking about it, you know, like the book is out, it's been beautifully received, it's done well, everything's fantastic. But you're not going to continue on around the world talking about it for too much longer. And I wonder how that feels.

[Griffin Dunn]

Well, you know, it's. So we talked about the headlights of it coming along and, you know, for people who don't know, you know, I'm writing the book chronologically and I get to the part of my sister being born and coming back from the Hobby Hospital and my mother's joy having lost two other little girls and stillborns, the joy of that. And then she gets older and all the crazy animals that she would pick off the street and raise. And I see the headlights coming now. She's an actress. I never talked about Dominique's murder. I never talked about the trial

[David Duchovny]

the

[Griffin Dunn]

briefest way to my closest friends, never in any sort of detail. Everyone who is close to me said, I had no idea. I had no idea. You know, they knew from my father. My father wrote it changed his life. It's changed all ours. But him, he found his voice at great cost to become a writer and a crime reporter and writing about victims, these crimes from the point of view and empathy for the victims who were being dragged through the mud, as my sister's reputation was. And you're quite right, that's when I saw, okay, this is a different book. I thought this book would be funny, adolescent, crazy, stupid, beat off stories, I don't know. And it just got deeper and deeper as I got closer and closer. And I thought, no, this is. Dominique's been in this book the whole time. And I just, you know, I just went there and I heard myself talk about it or write about it. And you know, you were, you know, asking about, you know, the difference between telling a story and writing it. There's a big difference.

[David Duchovny]

It just,

[Griffin Dunn]

you just go into a much deeper, deeper place and you, you relive the, the location and the, the smell of the courtroom and the, and the, the lighting and the, and the avarice that takes place in it in a judicial system. And, and it's not conversational. You're just telling it as you see it. And that's where the journalism kicked in for me. I wanted to get every fact down, every memory down, every observation and my parents dialogue during that time and my brother, how they dealt with it. I wanted to get down this time from my point of view as a sibling. It used to upset me so much when my father would talk about it on talk shows, promoting a book that had nothing to do with the trial. But of course, every talk show host wanted to talk about the murder and it, but here I went here, I'm going there, I'm going there.

[David Duchovny]

And can you, can you explain that feeling to me though, if it's not too painful? Like when you'd see your father?

[Griffin Dunn]

I would talk to him. You mean my feelings about my dad? Talking about.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, we're talking about it. When it wasn't part of the story,

[Griffin Dunn]

when it was something it was. I'd go, you know, do you have to, I mean, why, why do we have to go through this every goddamn time you have coming out? And he goes, hey kiddo, look, you know, I'm a journalist and I'm talking to journalists and they're going to ask this and it's, it's, you know, professional courtesy and you know, that's my job. And you know what I came to when I was writing this book?

[David Duchovny]

Was that good? Was that good enough in the moment for you?

[Griffin Dunn]

Not particularly, but. Yeah, but let it go. I know, you know, I know that. I knew his heart was in the right place, but when I was writing this section of the book, I understood him. I understood what he was doing. I understood why he felt compelled to talk. And it wasn't just to sell books, which in my angry son period, that's what I took it to be. He really spoke to people who had been jostled through the judicial system and, and he became a really strong spokesman. And as I'm, you know, on my, I don't know, 30th interview on a, you know, on a, on, on a stage talking about these things, that's what I clung to. I just channeled dad. I just, you know, getting his message out about victims rights and, and, and, and, and domestic violence and the extraordinary transformation of my parents. You know, instead of succumbing to grief and self pity and loss, they took this injustice. The killer I'm talking about has served three and a half years for. They didn't call it murder, they called it manslaughter. And they took that and they each in their own way tried to bake something positive come out of that. My mother started a group called justice for Victims of Homicide and she changed laws that were in the protecting. There's a law called Marcy's law that lets families know when the killer has been released on bail or from. Or from prison or has a parole hearing. You'd think that would be common sense, but my mother made that. That's no law in 28 states. And my father did his bit, and I don't know, that's keeping their memory alive. And I found it was tough, emotional. I still get quite emot. Journal, but that was my. My job. That was, you know, how. How I got through it.

[David Duchovny]

And you do it so beautifully in the book. I. I guess, you know, I. I blurbed the book. Full disclosure.

[Griffin Dunn]

You sure did. You sure did. You were one of the earliest readers.

[David Duchovny]

And I said that you eschew the Hollywood ending, which is closure, and that, you know, it's never going to be okay. Yeah, but.

[Griffin Dunn]

But there's no such thing. Ridiculous word.

[David Duchovny]

It is, isn't it? And it's almost. People think it's a right now you have a right to closure. Well, you know, if you can. If you can find it, you know, God bless you. I. I've never been able to find it myself, but I guess I come back to the other question about how are you feeling now at the end of this road? You know, like, you've brought her close to you. You've told her story the way that you have wanted to. You've taken control of that narrative and the way that people speak now. And now that the. Now that this part is ending, how do you feel about that presence that you've conjured up and that you've held close to you for years now?

[Griffin Dunn]

Yeah, I feel very proud of the book. I feel very proud I was able to accomplish, describing what it was like to be me in a family that I love, that I could talk about all of their weaknesses and their flaws, because I always knew how they were going to come out, knew the ending of their arc, of their characters and. But I think I'm, you know, gonna just sort of. Sort of move on, but feel very. I don't know, I just felt so much love, which I'm not gonna let go, but I felt so much love. That's what my brother, who's, you know, the only remaining member of my immediate family was. I needed his permission. You know, my brother, you know, had mental struggles, and he was bipolar, and he's fine now. He's doing great, but I had to talk about that period. And he gave me the greatest note before I even started writing. And he said, you know, write whatever you want about me, whatever you want. Just have it come from a place of love, and that has stayed with me all the way through. And every time I'm talking about this for the 400th time, that's kind of what drives me. And I guess I don't want to lose that either.

[David Duchovny]

You're writing about things that happened, even if it was fiction. It wasn't until I started writing fiction novels that I thought, if my kids ever really want to know me, really want to know me after I'm gone, you know, they can somehow pulp this book, squeeze the juice out of it, make a smoothie, and they would know my DNA somehow through this writing. But I'm wondering if you felt that as well when you finished this and you realized I'm a writer. I come from a family of writers. I've earned my entrance into this family in many ways. And for those that come after me, for my kid, they're going to know me. They can know me now. I'm fully known. If you confront this honestly and with love, as you say,

[Griffin Dunn]

you know, it's a very kind of complicated thing. My daughter, she's very talented. Actress, she's in her early 30s. She lives in New York. She's, you know, still finding herself and. And, you know, she's a very, very curious person and incredibly emotional and feeling. And she's had such reticence starting the book, reading this book. And I understood it.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Griffin Dunn]

Yeah. You know, it's like, you know, I'm still a work in progress, Dad. I don't want to read, you know, I don't want to know everything about where I'm from right now. I. To find out where I'm from and, you know, maybe tell my own story, you know, and she didn't say that, but I know that that's a subtext in there. That's where the resistance is. And it took her forever. And quite honestly, I'm not, you know, I think she has some sort of mixed feelings about it, and it's an exposure. Yeah, yeah. It's like I didn't write it to define her, but it's very hard to read. To be the daughter of the writer and read this book and not have it. How can you not see yourself or reflect or see it confining of who you are? And you come from this family of writers. And so it's sort of. It's not. I know she's proud of me, and she's been to one of the events that I've had, and she's seen me on, you know, on Stage and, you know, hitting these. Sometimes I get kind of emotional talking and I see her in the back row and I see her, her tearing up with me. But it's, it's a complicated thing, I think, to read, you know, especially if the writer who's your father is very much alive. Yeah. To read about his, his life and everything that led up to your own being born.

[Leah Greenberg]

Hey everyone, it's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin.

[Ezra Levin]

You might know us as two of the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. We're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime.

[Leah Greenberg]

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[Ezra Levin]

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[Leah Greenberg]

What's the plan? Available Friday, January 23rd, wherever you get

[Ezra Levin]

your podcasts, subscribe, recruit, discuss, organize and win. That's the plan.

[David Duchovny]

The people that were, were moving this story along is obviously your sister, but, but also just as strongly, your father. And I found the way you discuss your father to be really rich and fascinating because you really question the notions of masculinity, especially around his time and around that time. And it's such a rich relationship that you have with him, especially because, you know, he didn't share his ultimate, well, anyway, sexual identity with you. But here's a man who loves the fame, he's interested in famous actors, he loves the gossip aspects of things. And there's you who goes out and becomes famous and then in some ways, as you say, self destructively pushes it away. And I found that to be such a moving story as somebody who is been famous myself and thought that that was going to solve problems inside and outside with my parents on some level, make them love me in some weird way. But with your dad, it was almost explicit. Oh, he loves famous people. Here I am, I'm Griffin, I'm famous. And then fuck that.

[Griffin Dunn]

Well, very much so. And you know, I mean, I just want to say from the moment I've read the first book of yours, I read, I've always said if you were never an actor, you'd just be a writer, hands down. You're just so incredibly Gifted as a writer. I just have to get that off my chest.

[David Duchovny]

I'm pretty sure that'll stay in the podcast.

[Griffin Dunn]

Okay. And the theme of your podcast is failing better. And, you know, I could tell you stories of mine failing better, but since we're discussing dad and his masculinity and growth.

[David Duchovny]

That's the trick of this podcast, Griffin, is everything is tinged with failure. Anything we can talk about, and that's

[Griffin Dunn]

the what you can do from that. And, you know, he was a man

[David Duchovny]

who

[Griffin Dunn]

was not a border of sort of effeminate sort of behavior and, you know, as a child, just idolized, you know, movie stars and, you know, had pictures of Bette Davis and, you know, Ava Gardner on his walls and, you know, loved, loved all these, you know, everything having to do with movies and fame. And then, and then he ended up in entertainment business doing what he most wanted. But he was closeted and he had a drinking problem and he worshiped fame. And around the table, our dinner table, which was always in restaurants, he would just talk about famous people and it gave me cringes and how important that was. And he was on a very shallow path of real self destruction and, and really imploded with alcoholism, bankruptcy. And he lost all of his possessions. He had to sell all his possessions at a yard sale. He cared so much about, you know, where these plates are from and could name the kind of rugs and sold them all, put price tags on them. Got rid of his fancy Mercedes and left town in shame. In shame. And broke down in a little town in Oregon and ended up living there. And he dug deep. He dug deep. No one should ever have to find themselves at such a cost. And he got sober and he became a man. It was right in front of my eyes. Well, not so much because he was away from us and he didn't have a phone, but I could tell his manhood, his. His identity, his pride was coming through in these single space, 1215 page letters that he would write my brother, sister and I separately about his journey and he, about his facing his humiliations, documenting all the horrible mistakes he made in his life, some thrashing himself and just, you know, with such regret. But it was a process. And we watched him, you know, find himself, his true self. And that's, you know, when his daughter was murdered, he already had the inner strength to get through it. He was already fully formed. The writing, his voice, everything that came later, but I never saw someone fall so hard. And, you know, as he was falling and all the people in the movie business who had been to his parties and everything. They all dumped him, never returned his calls. Those would be the same people that I as a young actor would go and read for and try to get jobs from. And they were the same people that, you know, kicked my dad when he was down. So I had a. The business sort of scared me a little bit, you know, and as I had my first blush with fame, I found it kind of scary. I didn't feel fully formed myself. I felt, I thought, if this goes on like this, I'm not going to be able to handle this. I'm going to be one of those rehab kids.

[David Duchovny]

Did your father react in any way to your first brush with.

[Griffin Dunn]

He was beside himself with pride.

[David Duchovny]

And did that feel good or did you feel suspicious?

[Griffin Dunn]

No, that felt good. I mean, I was happy to see him happy. And anytime any parent who's proud of their son, you'll take it. And you know, he loved being famous. And because he'd been in, he made it look fun, you know, because he'd been in the toilet and he'd fought his way out so he could enjoy his success. I was too young to enjoy it. I was like. And I also had a dual occupation of being a movie producer. I got my first significant job in a movie by casting myself in a movie I produced in Chilly Scenes of Winter. And so I would retreat to producing, to going behind the camera.

[David Duchovny]

And

[Griffin Dunn]

just when I was supposed to be getting hot, cashing in on fame as an actor, then I'd go behind the camera and I would drive people crazy who wanted me to be famous, like agents and things like that. And you know, I kicked myself a lot. I really thought of myself as a, a tremendous failure for as is this business designed to make you feel and you know, where you actually think. You walk into a restaurant and you're not doing feeling good about yourself and you think everybody's looking at you thinking the same awful things you're thinking about yourself, which of course they're not. But I, you know, went through a lot of self flagellation about how I screwed up my, the trajectory of my acting career and all that stuff. You know, when I wrote this book and I actually had to go through all the stages I went through, I kind of finished the book and I went, huh, that's kind of an interesting career. I did a lot there.

[David Duchovny]

Well, you know, the thing is, if you don't fail, you're going to continue doing the same thing. I mean, if you succeed, they're going to ask you to do the same thing. And you're going to do the same thing, and you're going to do that for as long as it happens. If you fail, you've got to bust out some other doors, you've got to walk down some other roads. You've got to become a producer, you've got to become a writer, you've got to become other things. And sometimes those things are more suited to your soul in that moment than the acting might be.

[Griffin Dunn]

Yeah, I mean, I was really, really grateful. And I've had. I've been able to have more experiences and relationships with far more people in all aspects of filmmaking than I would have had. I just stuck to being an actor. My producing partner for many years, Amy Robinson, you know, she and I have been through a great deal, you know, in our partnership, and we've broken up and we've gotten back together. We made really great movies that weren't appreciated at the time, and now Criterion is now releasing them. That seems to be the thing I'm noticing at this age is, like, all the things that, you know, even after Hours and Werewolf, nobody really thought much about him. Twenty years later, everybody loves it, right?

[David Duchovny]

Well, that's not everything. I mean, that could be the things that you've been involved with because you were doing good work all along. It's not just pro forma. Everything from 20 years ago gets reappreciated. I think that you had an instinct that if we could talk briefly about what you thought you wanted to do as an actor, you know, when you decided to be an actor, what was calling to you? What did you want to express? What did you want to put out into the world as an actor?

[Griffin Dunn]

I wanted to be Dustin Hoffman. I wanted.

[David Duchovny]

That's very specific.

[Griffin Dunn]

You know, Dustin grew up in la, not just a mile from me, and he chose to be an actor in New York and left Los Angeles just as I did when I was 19. I think he was probably around the same age. You know, when I saw him in the Graduate and I saw that face and that humor and that. Those little sounds he was making, I went, that's me. I can do that. I look like that guy. And that's when I got that New York actor in my head. It was a very specific kind of actor I wanted to be. I didn't want to get my bones in television in Los Angeles, where I grew up. I wanted to be a theater New York actor. And I wanted to. You know, it's. Every actor usually mentions the same people. I just listened to your Sean interview You said the same guys. De Niro, Pacino, Hoffman. Those were my guys. So I didn't become that actor, but I became something else.

[David Duchovny]

Well, you became yourself.

[Griffin Dunn]

I became myself.

[David Duchovny]

I think if you'd become Dustin Hoffman, it'd be pretty confusing to all of us, especially to Dustin. But I think. And what I wanted to say, before we get off the discussion of your father, what I really got from your discussion of him, you know, and I got. I got the pain and I got the confusion, and I. And I. I got the love. But you come awful close to equating masculinity with resilience, and I find that to be beautiful. Not that only men have access to resilience, but is that fair to say, like, at this point in your life, do you say resilience is. Is a kind of a masculinity, a kind of a curve?

[Griffin Dunn]

I. I would. I. And I would say the masculinity I'm talking about is. Another word for. It would be character earned. Character. You know, You have to grow into it. You have to, you know, you have to fill the space of the life you're supposed to be of the man you're supposed to be, of the person you're supposed to be. And then you're. And then. Then you have an inner strength that you. You've earned because of the resilience, because you've fought your way through just walls of shame and humiliation and, you know, in failure. And, you know, he never got over his wife, my mother, leaving him. Yeah, he. You know, but by the time he came into his character, by the time he embraced what it is to be a man who's fully formed, my mother looked at him. You know, she left him for all the reasons we were talking about earlier about his character. And she was in a. She had Ms. She was in bed. She was always in a wheelchair for a good deal of her life. And she looked at him and she goes, do you. Do you know how much you have changed? You know, that's. That's character. That's. He grew into that. He earned it. He fought for it.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I'm. I'm happy. I'm. I'm. I'm happy to count you as a friend. Me, too.

[Griffin Dunn]

You man, your character. Thank you, Val.

[David Duchovny]

All right, just some thoughts. Barely awake here. It's a Sunday. It's a nice Sunday. I really enjoyed that conversation. I really like Griffin. I really liked his book. As we're talking about parents, as I was talking about parents and the idea of making your parents happy if we grow up with, for lack of a better word, sad parents, In Griffin's case, you know, a father who is not living an authentic existence, closeted in that case, brings with it certain amounts of shame and sadness. In my mother's case, very, very, very sad. After the divorce, heartbroken, sad and fragile. And I took it upon myself to heal her in a way, even at a young age, at 11, 12, to make her happy, probably happy again would have been my thought, although I don't know that she was ever happy. She had a tough upbringing. But I remember I had this occasion. My mother was Scottish, and I had an occasion where I could get her to Great Britain for a premiere of a movie returned to me that I did in like, 2000, and Prince Charles was throwing the premiere. So my mother, who was born in poverty in 1930, I was going to fly her back on the Concorde, fly her to Edinburgh, which is close to where she was brought up, and she was going to meet her prince now king and I, I was very proud to do it, but I didn't realize it was like I was trying to make her whole, you know, not that my mother was this royalist or really, you know, she was a very realistic person and didn't care about that royal shit or whatever, but it was. It's something. It's something to be able to take your mom to meet the prince and that the prince is, you know, throwing a party for something you did. And I realized at some point, probably in talking to my therapist back then, was that this was my. My greatest try to. To make her happy. My greatest attempt to prove that what I was doing, acting, also was legitimate and that it was somewhat pathetic in that way, but also, you know, moving, I think, and that it was a gift in a way, because then I could see that that didn't make her happy either, nor should it have. You know, that's the illusion. Because fame is seen as a cure all by many that don't have it. And those that get it, they can see the failure of fame as a liberation. It doesn't always happen that way. But you can't step back and go, well, that didn't work. I'm still pretty miserable. Or I'm still. There's still a hole, there's still a lack, there's still sadness. Anyway, that one rambled. There's more. Fail Better with Lemon Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now and Apple Podcasts. Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Bracci, Donnie Matias and Paula Kaplan. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Krupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowland and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at link Laminata Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

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Are you Team Batman or Spider Man? Is the ultimate dish pizza or tacos? Smash Boom. Best will help settle those debates and so many more. Every episode we take two cool things, smash them together, and we see which one is best. Debaters use facts, jokes, stories and more to argue for their side. And it's all judged by a teenager because who is better at judging than a teen. It's fun. It's weirdly informative. It's Smashboom Best. Get it Wherever you get your podcasts,

[Chelsea Clinton]

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