Podcast Summary: "Fail Again: Kathleen Hanna’s Music is Her Message"

Fail Better with David Duchovny (Lemonada Media)
Original Air Date: February 17, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode of Fail Better, host David Duchovny sits down with Kathleen Hanna, punk musician, feminist icon, and author of the memoir Rebel Girl. They discuss how personal failure, creative mistakes, and cultural setbacks fuel genuine artistic and activist breakthroughs. Kathleen shares her journey from underground music scenes to wider cultural influence, her complicated relationship with fame, and the enduring power of humor and community in the face of adversity. Authentic, witty, and open, the conversation delves deep into what it means to “fail better”.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Punk and Failure as Revolutionary Acts

• Duchovny admits his initial misunderstanding of punk, equating its sound to "failure," before realizing its disruptive, purposeful nature.
  • "That failure, to me, I was seeing it as... a revolutionary act. And... that's the success of punk is that failure." [03:33]
• Hanna embraces failure in creative processes, arguing that mistakes are often the birthplace of originality and depth.
  • "Some of the best things we've ever done started with a mistake... it becomes a beautiful mess." [04:30]

2. Redefining Success: Personal Impact vs. Mainstream Metrics

• Hanna contrasts traditional markers of success—money, fame, awards—with her own definitions.
  • "My success is when a woman comes up and tells me... I would sing your lyrics in my head to get through this horrible time." [09:18]
• She reflects on the 1990s, when mainstream recognition didn’t translate to the fulfillment or financial stability that many assumed.
  • "My mom's boyfriend was like, you must... have all this money. And I was still broke... but I was doing something really important that's really satisfying." [06:07]

3. Humor and Joy in Activism and Music

• Hanna discusses the importance of humor—sometimes dark, always subversive—in her songs and activism.
  • "I think there's... humor's massively important in terms of activism... The thing that will keep us coming back... is joy." [10:32]
• She notes how certain satirical or tongue-in-cheek lyrics can be misinterpreted, especially by audiences not attuned to the subtext.
  • "The girls and the gay kids totally got it. And a lot of straight white guys were like... 'this is reverse sexism'. And I was like, well, you don't get it. It's not for you." [11:00]

4. Navigating Feminism Under the Spotlight

• Hanna recalls the obstacles and microaggressions faced as a woman in the punk and indie scenes, and how those shaped her drive and the core of her anger.
  • "Sexism at every single show... the cumulative trauma of it... was part of uncovering my capacity for joy." [19:45]
• She openly reflects on sobriety, trauma, and the pressure to stay productive as both coping mechanism and capitalist conditioning.
  • "I don't know how to relax... I have to have a project going with you if I'm gonna be friends with you." [22:04]
  • "It's scary for me to be happy... it's scary for me to take a compliment." [24:36]

5. The Challenges of Indie Fame and Co-optation

• Being "indie famous" meant exposure and objectification from all sides:
  • "People started treating me like... Bruce Willis or something... I was no longer a person." [37:48]
  • "I was so accessible... I wrote letters to everybody... When people came up and were like, 'you're ruining feminism for everyone,' I would just really have to... say, oh, this is just again capitalism, where they don't even think I'm a person." [39:17]
• Cultural appropriation and the commercialization of Riot Grrrl and “Girl Power”:
  • "It was supposed to be, like, angry, like, grr... So then you flash forward, and it's now… I'm kind of proud of that." [40:08 - 43:39]
  • "If a businessman steals something out of one of my zines, or a male band... uses my lyrics... I'll just write another one." [45:06]

6. Creativity as Both Refuge and Avoidance

• Duchovny and Hanna bond over being restless creatives, exploring how busyness sometimes helps avoid deeper pain—but also enables new forms of self-discovery.
  • "Sometimes we hide in being creative. Sometimes we meditate by being creative. Sometimes... you find yourself at the same time." [46:55]
• Discussion of processing trauma through art, the freedom and challenge of writing long-form, and the emotional labor and boundaries required.
  • "This was really like me just writing down everything that happened to me... And I didn't think about a reader... I just wrote for myself." [27:28]
  • "My intention was never to hurt anybody or call anybody out... I did change stuff around about him so people wouldn't recognize him." [31:16]

Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• On mistakes as creative genesis:
  "You take a mistake and you just compound it and you just build it, and it becomes a beautiful mess..."
  — Kathleen Hanna [04:30]

• On feminist music’s personal impact:
  "My success is when a woman comes up and tells me... I would sing your lyrics in my head to get through this horrible time."
  — Kathleen Hanna [09:18]

• On joy in activism:
  "I think humor's massively important in terms of activism and our activist art... The thing that will keep us coming back to doing work... is joy."
  — Kathleen Hanna [10:55]

• On her anger’s root:
  "All of my anger comes from the fact that, like, I really want to enjoy every second of my life. And when that's thwarted, I get really pissed and I write songs about it."
  — Kathleen Hanna [20:20]

• On culture and co-optation:
  "We wrote a fanzine in ’91 called Girl Power... And then Spice Girls are, you know, on TV... talking about how Margaret Thatcher is a feminist. And I’m just like, help. Help."
  — Kathleen Hanna [41:00]

• On creative restlessness as both positive and negative:
  "Sometimes we hide in our curiosity. Sometimes we hide in being creative. Sometimes we meditate by being creative."
  — Kathleen Hanna [46:16]

• On her memoir’s process and potential harm:
  "I just wrote everything I wanted, knowing that I could kind of curate it before the world saw it."
  — Kathleen Hanna [33:00]

• Episode closing insight on art & ideology:
  "If I see politics being put forward in art... I think any kind of overt politics and art turns into propaganda... It's the artist's decision... but not something ever that I wanted for myself."
  — David Duchovny [48:10]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:33] Defining punk, failure, and rebellion
• [04:30] Embracing mistakes in creative process
• [06:07] Struggle with mainstream success vs. satisfaction
• [09:18] The impact of feminist music
• [10:55] Humor as activism
• [19:45] Sexism and cumulative trauma in the music scene
• [22:04] Project-driven friendships and hustling as a coping mechanism
• [24:36] Fears of happiness and processing trauma
• [27:28] The freedom of writing memoir and its emotional cost
• [31:16] Handling the ethics of writing about real people
• [37:48] Difficulties of being "indie famous" and loss of personhood
• [40:08–43:39] The journey from grassroots “girl power” to pop culture staple
• [45:06] Endlessly generating new work despite cultural appropriation
• [46:16] Creativity as shelter and self-exploration
• [48:10] Duchovny's reflection on politics and art

Final Thoughts

David Duchovny and Kathleen Hanna’s conversation is rich, candid, and full of warmth, wit, and insight. Hanna’s hard-won wisdom about failure, activism, and creativity offers both a challenge and an inspiration—reminding listeners that the most resonant successes are often born from what, at first, seems like failure. The episode is a testament to punk’s enduring revolutionary spirit—and why laughing in the face of adversity is an act of “failing better”.