Fail Again: Roads Taken and Not Taken with Jason Beghe

Summary

Fail Better with David Duchovny

"Fail Again: Roads Taken and Not Taken with Jason Beghe"

Release Date: February 3, 2026
Guest: Jason Beghe
Host: David Duchovny
Podcast by: Lemonada Media

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal and candid episode, David Duchovny sits down with longtime friend and acclaimed actor Jason Beghe (best known for NBC’s "Chicago PD") to explore the nature of failure, especially as seen through the lens of their 50-year friendship. This episode veers from the show's usual interview format and instead becomes a conversation about friendship, missed opportunities for intervention, and how the roads taken—and not taken—shape us. A major thread in their dialogue is Jason’s journey into (and out of) Scientology, and David’s sense of having failed as a friend during that time.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of Their Friendship (02:17–15:41)

• Duchovny recalls meeting Beghe at age 14 at Collegiate High School in New York, and how Jason’s unique approach to life inspired him to become an actor.
• David highlights Jason’s nonconformity, independence, and early sense of self:

  “You were always your own man. Even at 14, you were not part of whatever herd there was. … You were in the midst of kind of creating your own culture in some way, from a place of … not accepting what the system was telling you.” (06:30)

• Jason reflects on being misunderstood and his lifelong search for self-knowledge:

  “I would look in the mirror at a very young age trying to see who the fuck I was. And I couldn't see myself, you know, because there was this resistance and being told this is who you are, and feeling like that’s not who I am.” (08:37)

• The friends discuss their contrasting personalities: David as the anxious rule-follower, Jason as the risk-taking nonconformist.
• They reminisce about Jason’s nickname “Bam Bam,” his influence on David, and the complementary nature of their friendship:

  “It’s like puzzle pieces. … That discipline and that undiscipline that I have, those two puzzle pieces fed each other, and I think … the success that I’ve had as an actor, a lot of it is from the discipline I learned from you.” (14:36)

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2. Jason’s Introduction to Acting (18:00–22:11)

• Jason explains he was always told he should be an actor but never took it seriously until college, where he almost gave up after one class—until a professor offered accommodations for his restlessness.
• He describes the liberating sense of validation from this teacher, who “saw” him and made space for his unique needs.

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3. The Scientology Years & Friendship Drift (22:11–32:18)

• David frames this section as an exploration of his perceived “failure” as a friend:

  “I felt my friendship—I failed in warning him … like a good friend might, I think. And it’s haunted me a bit ever since, even as we become very close again and repair fractures … caused by that time.” (03:54)

• Jason recounts how he was not recruited by anyone but essentially recruited himself through an acting teacher (Milton Katselas) and a personal realization that he could not trust anyone—not Milton, not his friends, not even himself.
• This lack of self-trust led him to seek answers in Scientology, starting with the “purification” program, investing substantial money and trust into the system.
• A key revelation: during a Scientology exercise (TR0), he experienced a moment of “going exterior”—a sensation of separating identity and self, echoing a near-death experience from a horrific car accident in 1999.
• That moment felt like the answer to his lifelong question, "Who am I?"

  “That moment where I went exterior and I felt the difference between being Jason and just being. I finally answered that question that I’d been asking myself in the mirror. Who am I?” (31:00)

• Ultimately, Jason notes, he gave massive trust to Scientology—and was betrayed.

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4. The Wedge Between Friends & Lingering Regrets (33:25–41:12)

• David and Jason discuss how their friendship suffered during Jason’s years in Scientology.

  “What happens when somebody goes into Scientology … their vocabulary changes because it’s … a brainwashing. … All of a sudden you were speaking to me in a different language, which scared me, and I didn’t trust and … I didn’t call bullshit on that. I guess I sensed that I couldn’t.” (34:45)

• Jason recalls being pressured to recruit David and receiving warnings that David was a “suppressive person,” a Scientology term for “evil” or anti-Scientology influences—but he never accepted that label for David.
• David confesses his guilt for not intervening more forcefully but admits he was unsure and afraid to drive a wedge between them.
• Jason, in turn, reassures David:

  “Your behavior was almost perfect as a friend, in retrospect, because you never made me wrong. … You mirrored my level of closeness and warmth. And I felt … you judged me, but you kept it to yourself. … I want to tell you that you may feel shitty about that. … Listen, you did it.” (36:41–39:17)

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5. Leaving Scientology & Career Resurrection (41:12–44:58)

• Jason’s exit from Scientology was pragmatic: “I want my money back. It doesn’t work.”
• Discussing re-entering acting, Jason and David recall working together on "Californication" and how Jason’s comedic bravery shone through.
• Jason unexpectedly landed the lead role on "Chicago PD" at age 50+, a rare event, which they compare to winning at poker with impossible odds—a fifth card to an inside straight.
• Jason reflects on not trusting even “Jason” as he now understands him; his goals have shifted away from ego and ambition.
• David notes Jason’s growth, now sitting “number one” on the call sheet—leading a huge team on set, a role that the younger, nonconformist Jason never would have wanted.

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6. The Power of Lifelong Friendship & Shared Understanding (44:58–47:30)

• The episode closes with mutual affirmation and gratitude, especially the value of being truly understood:

  “I feel good about myself, and I feel, you know, like a lot of people want to win an award, like an Oscar... that’s how I feel when you say that to me. … That’s a hell of a thing to give me, David. And I love you for it.” (46:17, Jason Beghe)
  “Well, I love you. … I have to pee.” (46:43, David Duchovny)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Jason’s unique spirit:

  “You were a catalyst of change … for me, again, coming back to, like, me looking at you, I’m like, wow ... there’s like a free zone around this guy.” (11:04, Duchovny)

• On lifelong questions:

  “Who are you? Who are you? And I would look in the mirror at a very young age trying to see who the fuck I was. And I couldn’t see myself... feeling like that’s not who I am.” (08:37, Beghe)

• On the moment of trusting Scientology:

  “I want my money back. It doesn’t work. … That was the whole thing.” (41:12, Beghe)

• On failed friendship:

  “I regret … even though I know that probably couldn’t have persuaded you at that point.” (36:36, Duchovny)

• On friendship through decades:

  “He’s a keeper of a version of me from many different times in my life and I’m a keeper of a version of him from many different times in his.” (47:39, Duchovny)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:17 – David introduces the episode’s personal focus and Jason Beghe.
• 06:30 – David & Jason discuss Jason’s distinctiveness in high school.
• 14:36 – On learning discipline from each other.
• 22:11 – Transition to discussing Scientology and David’s feelings of failure.
• 31:00 – Jason's "exterior" experience—parallel to his out-of-body accident.
• 36:41–39:17 – Jason reassures David on his role as a friend.
• 41:12 – Jason's pragmatic appraisal as he left Scientology.
• 43:00 – Landing lead role on "Chicago PD" at 50+.
• 46:17 – Jason expresses the power of David’s affirmation.
• 47:39 – David on the unique perspective of lifelong friendships.

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Tone & Style

The episode is warm, confessional, self-deprecating, and often playful even as it deals with deep, sometimes painful themes. David and Jason’s decades-long bond is evident in their banter and willingness to reflect honestly on their triumphs and failings. The language is direct and frequently laced with humor and swearing, in keeping with the show’s ethos of laughter in the face of failure.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode is both a meditation on friendship’s durability and the ways we can fail—and forgive—each other, with an eye-opening insider’s view of Scientology, the acting world, and two men’s intertwined paths through life’s setbacks. Whether you’re interested in Hollywood, personal growth, or just a great story, Jason and David’s dialogue delivers wit, rawness, and insight in equal measure.

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Jason Beghe]

It's morning in New York.

[David Duchovny]

Hey everybody, I'm Mandy Patinkin. And I'm Kathryn Grody. And we have a new podcast. It's called don't listen to us. Many of you have asked for our advice.

[Jason Beghe]

Tell me what is wrong with you people. Don't listen to us.

[David Duchovny]

Our take it or leave it advice show every Wednesday. Out now a Lemonada Media original.

[Jason Beghe]

Lemonada.

[David Duchovny]

I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better. A show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Today's show's a little different because I'm going to talk a little bit about something that I consider a personal failure. And it involves today's guest who is also one of my closest friends. His name is Jason Beghe and I met him five decades ago at Collegiate High School in New York. And we've been here through all the milestones you pass in life, like love and loss and ups and downs in kids careers. We've known so many different versions of each other. We Know each other when we met when we were 14. Jason is best known today as Sergeant Hank Voight in the NBC series Chicago PD. He's been playing this iconic character since 2014. He's also acted alongside me in the X Files and as novelist Richard Bates on Californication. And he's in my latest movie, Reverse the Curse, now on Hulu. And it's kind of inspiring to me how he got into acting, and we'll talk about that a little bit. But the other thing, big thing to know is that Jason is a former Scientologist. He first got involved in the 90s, and at that point, he and I drifted apart a bit. And we haven't really talked about that in depth until today. And, you know, as a Fail Better podcast, I conceived of this conversation. And wanting to get Jason on, aside from the fact that I think he's a unique kind of mind and perception of the world, was the fact that while he was a Scientologist and got deeply into it for over a decade, easily, I felt my friendship. I felt that I failed him as a friend. I fail. I. I failed in. In. In warning him and thinking, you know, I thought, this is a cult. This is not a good thing to be involved in. But I didn't. I didn't press those like a good friend might, I think. And it's haunted me a bit ever since, even as we become very close again and repair fractures were in the relationship caused by that time. But it has been something that's weighed on me and I see as a failure, a failure of, like, nerve, a failure of confrontation. But it's an interesting thing and I think an educational thing or relatable thing for people to hear, how we sometimes can fail friends or we fail them out of love. We don't want to confront them. We don't want to tell them that they're wrong or they're full of shit, because we think they're going to get there themselves somehow. It's not our place. All these things that went through my head at the time and, you know, there was all a part of me that was like, hey, maybe he's got the answer. Maybe he's right and I'm wrong. That was in there, too. But anyway, we get to all of it, and hopefully with a good sense of humor, that's always been a foundational part of our friendship, is just laughing our fucking asses off. Here's Jason Begay. How you doing?

[Jason Beghe]

I'm okay.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah?

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

What's wrong?

[Jason Beghe]

Nothing, actually. No, I just sometimes I get frazzled.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

You know, a little bit frazzled, but generally I'm good. Too good, probably.

[David Duchovny]

That sounds a little superstitious. Too good is fine. No, no, I. I never think it's too good. No. Because I. I rarely make that kind of assumption. I'm. I. I can. I. I turn it into bad immediately before it comes out as too good.

[Jason Beghe]

Me, I feel like things are so good that I've lived long enough to know that they don't last. So I kind of like. I go outside, first thing I do is check the sky for a falling shoe.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. You know a piano.

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah. Could be an anvil. Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

You don't see that much anymore in. In the cartoons, the. The piano. It used to be falling pianos all the time.

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

That's a good place to start for me, because I wanted to just say that I've known you for 50 years.

[Jason Beghe]

Is that funny now? It's 50.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

We just hit 50 this year, I believe.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Well, I met you when I was 14. Yeah, right. Freshman year of high school. And I would say that I wouldn't be an actor if not for you, because you were the first. You and Maggie. Maggie Jacobson Wheeler were the only actors that I ever knew, were the only people that I ever knew who thought of pursuing acting as an actual profession. And I think I've said this to you, is that you were always your own man. Even at 14, you were not part of whatever herd there was. You had your own opinions, you had your own likes. You didn't have many dislikes. You were never a hater, but you liked jazz, you know, Eric Gale. You were, like, turning around to Eric Gale. You know, I don't think I ever heard you talk about Saturday Night Live. You know, that wasn't a thing. You know, you weren't part. You weren't part of popular culture. You were in the midst of kind of creating your own culture in some way, from a place of. It seemed just curiosity and not accepting. Not accepting what the system was telling you. And I wonder if you had a sense of that as a kid, where you think that came from, if you've ever thought about it that way.

[Jason Beghe]

I guess that was oddly moving for me to hear you say that. I also feel like, in a sense, because I hadn't really thought of myself like that, but I felt. Because I don't think of myself as different or. Well, I do. I guess I. When I think of myself, I guess I go, I guess I'm different, but I don't.

[David Duchovny]

Different how? When you think of yourself. I guess I'm different. Different how? How do you mean that?

[Jason Beghe]

Like the way you were saying that I don't follow every. The herd.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Jason Beghe]

I feel misunderstood. I'm. I'm used to it.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I think you were misunderstood then. At 14. I think you were misunderstood.

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah, yeah, I know. And. And I. And I even used to say, who are you? Who are you? And I would look in the mirror at a very young age trying to see who the fuck I was. And I couldn't see myself, you know, because there was this resistance and being told this is who you are, and feeling like that's not who I am.

[David Duchovny]

And we went to Collegiate, which was a very establishment, I guess the most establishment school. So you had exposure on all sides to. You had entry. You had entry to a system that you apparently didn't have that much interest in. You know, that you were more interested in creating your own kind of pathway, which to me was. His was ballsy and a mark of a curious, imaginative human being.

[Jason Beghe]

I never considered the other way, though. I didn't want to fit in like that kind of middle class accepted normal never seemed interesting or desirable. It seemed dangerous and a trap, like a killer.

[David Duchovny]

Well, you see me coming at you like I'm coming from, you know, my mom, who is instilling the fear in me of. We're barely in the middle class here, you know, so you've got to hang on and you've got to go do better. And there I am. And then I go to the school, which is going to be my ticket. Yeah. Out and out and in. And I meet you and. And it's. I'm lucky, I feel lucky that I met you. And I'm not denigrating Collegiate or that world at all. You know, we got. We got great educations there. But it was really this sense of interrogating that pathway, you know, from you, which was like. Well, I'm not, you know, you didn't say it, but it's like I'm not accepting what I'm being given here as a given. You know, I'm just kind of out here free. You were very free. And like, I mean, a nickname, Bam Bam, which was not only because. You were a man among boys, for one, you went through puberty at like 5 or 6, I think.

[Jason Beghe]

Bam Bam.

[David Duchovny]

So. So Bam Bam, for those who don't know, was the son of. In the Flintstones. And he was really strong and he had his club and he'd go, Bam Bam. And he'd bust. He'd bust things up. And you were. It was. It made sense for you to me, because both you were super strong. And secondly, you did bust things up. You were, like a catalyst of change and not. Not necessarily of chaos, but you were a wild card. And, like, for me, again, coming back to, like, me looking at you, I'm like, wow, this is, like. There's, like, a free zone around this guy. Like, wherever this guy's moving, he's creating, like, a new environment. He's creating new laws or no laws or whatever. And that was so cool for me, because I'm, like, terrified. I want to follow all the rules. I don't want to get in trouble.

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And so how does that play into things, like, specifically?

[Jason Beghe]

Well, I felt there's that whole sense of immortality at that age.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Jason Beghe]

That I may have had a little bit more than most. But in terms of, like, not giving a fuck about the grades or all that stuff, I could have, I think. Or no, I don't, because of the ADHD or whatever that bam, bam is, I just couldn't do it. I know I could have probably focused and stuff like that, but it would have been such a strain that I probably just actually could not. I mean, if it was a matter of life and death, I could have, but I didn't feel like I had a choice. And so I had to play the card that I had. And I tried to enjoy it and lean into it. I'm grateful that I didn't feel like, what's wrong with me? Or it's just like, okay, it. You know, I guess I didn't get an ace. Let's bluff. Let's play this hand. Let's try to have some fun. You know what I mean? Let's see what happens. Like, later, years later, I heard a quote that I've held on to ever since. Not to equate myself with him, but somebody asked Picasso, how do you paint a painting like Guernica? How do you plan that? And he said, I paint the picture to find out what it looks like.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Jason Beghe]

So I feel like, what. That since there was no rules and I wasn't playing in a system, there was no painting by the numbers because I didn't know where it was going. I just had to kind of paint the picture to find out what it looks like. And that doesn't mean that along the way, you can't, like, look at something and think, this sucks, and throw it away and just keep painting, you know, try another one. You know what I mean?

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Jason Beghe]

I didn't Have a choice. So I made the. The most out of it. Like, you know how you were so disciplined and worked hard and, you know, you were such a good boy, the head boy and all this, you know, you were perfect in so many ways. And I was not built like that. I wasn't drawn like that. I was. I couldn't do it. You know, you. I. I admire, like, I feel like it's funny, like, one of the things, like when you talk about our relationship, which is a very, you know, I don't know about you, but I don't have close relationships for 50 years. It's you. And that's it.

[David Duchovny]

It's just you and Matty Warshaw for me.

[Jason Beghe]

There you go. And it's Matty, right? But the thing is, like, when I look at you and me, I think of it like puzzle pieces. Like, I remember the first thing I said to you. You showed up at Collegiate, nervous kid. And I looked at you and I went over to you. It was in Ms. Spahr's science, whatever that was, chemistry or something, Biology, bio. And I go, hey, what's your name? You go, david. I said, I'm Jason. I got a feeling you and I are going to be friends. And I was right. It's a wonderful kind of a way to meet somebody and be right about it. But as it turns out, you know, that discipline and that undiscipline that I have, those two puzzle pieces fed each other and I think that I wouldn't be as, you know, the success that I've had as an actor, a lot of it is from the discipline, discipline that I learned from you.

[David Duchovny]

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[Jason Beghe]

And I'm Aerie MacDonald. And welcome to Arie and Rachel Unfiltered at Unrivaled, a show where we give.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You all you need to know from Unrivaled and more.

[Jason Beghe]

This season we're talking to some of the best athletes. I'm trying to watch my language. You good be you. It's unfiltered. That's what we're here for. And coaches in women's basketball like Paige Beckers and Lee Rue. Hey, it's Paige nicely. And celebrity Unrivaled fans about games news. All for the fans to learn more about our journey and the folks who make Unrivaled the great league it is. I'm super unfiltered. Arie's gonna be super unfiltered. Cuz I'm going to force her to be. We'll also be talking to you and answering your questions. So tune in every Thursday and find us on social and all your favorite podcast platforms.

[David Duchovny]

It was with acting that you found a place and you got into acting when we were in college. So I didn't, I wasn't there when you got into acting. And I'm just wondering, what was the feeling when you first started doing it? What part of you was being fed? What was the lightning bolt? Because it really, it hit and, you know, it's never left you.

[Jason Beghe]

Well, here's the funny thing. All my life. You came to Collegiate in ninth grade? Yeah, high school. Ever since I was a kid, I would go to People's, Michael Newhouse's house, Mario, all these, you know, Chauncey Parker, Chris Huntington. I'd go to their houses and their parents say, oh my God, you're going to be an actor. Really? All my life because I was, you know, like this kind of funny, shiny.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

Show off. He kind of whatever I was, you know, I had a little pizzazz and, And I was free.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

You know, I didn't, you know, edit myself and, and I was, you know, but I went to Collegiate where everybody, you know, became somebody with a briefcase and a telephone and you know what?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

And I just, I knew I couldn't, I couldn't make it. You know, there's no way I could sit down all day and Talk on the phone and make. I'd go crazy, but people used to say that. But I was in this environment where everybody was gonna bound for Wall street and lots of money, you know, in a country house and all this kind of thing. And I was like, I couldn't do that. But I also knew nobody becomes an actor.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, we didn't know anybody. We didn't know anybody.

[Jason Beghe]

And I remember when I went to college, I thought, oh, I'll take an acting class. Because it seems easy to me. And I can get the credits. It's easy. And I went to my first acting class. And it was not just one period. It was two periods in a row. And it was kind of interesting and, you know, whatever. But I went up after the class when it was finally over. That was the first time I'd ever been in a classroom for like 80 fucking minutes straight. Or maybe it was 90, I don't know. But I was like, listen, I'm going to drop out of your class. Thank you. It seemed interesting, and he's like, why? I said, it's just not for me. He said, I really. He was like, really upset about it. I think you could really be great at this. I said, yeah, it's interesting, but I gotta tell you, honestly, there's no way in the world I can sit down for 90 minutes. It's impossible. I cannot do it.

[David Duchovny]

To me. That's such a ballsy thing to say. Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

I said, I'm sorry. I had no idea this was two classes in a row. I can't do it. I was wondering why I only have to meet twice a week for all these credits. But here's the fucking catch. I said. He said, what if I let you sit anywhere? You can lay down, you can move around, you can do whatever you want. He says, seriously? He said, absolutely. I said, deal. I'll stay.

[David Duchovny]

Wow.

[Jason Beghe]

And that's how I ended up doing that.

[David Duchovny]

Well, he saw that in you. That's a wonderful, wonderful mentor story. You know, I'm always looking for those kinds of moments when somebody sees you. You know, somebody sees you. Where I'd like to go now is when I see you. And this is kind of the heart of what I thought would be interesting to talk about with you as well today. And I wanted to frame it in a certain way, which was like the failure of my friendship in a way, you know, with you. And not looking for any kind of forgiveness or absolution or even. Or even for you to agree or disagree. But you became a member of the Church of Scientology in what year? What year is. Is that?

[Jason Beghe]

94.

[David Duchovny]

And I see that as a very rigid system. You know, you went from being a guy who made his own rules and made his own way. And I know that you got that. I know that you got there through an acting class, right. Through Milton Konsellas. Right. So the conduit was actually through acting into Scientology. Is that. Is that fair to say?

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

How did that recruit? Would you call it a recruitment? If it was. How did that. How did that happen?

[Jason Beghe]

No, I recruited myself. Like, the way it happened was Milton. You know, I, you know, I'm just going around doing work in LA and being an actor and doing my thing. People always ask, hey, you're good. You know, who do you study with? And I'd say, Milton Katsellas. And then people at work would go, oh, isn't he a Scientologist? I didn't know. He never talked about that. You know, I found out about it and. And I was. But I admired the. Out of Wilt. Milton. Very perceptive, terrific teacher. Genius, right? Teacher, really. And I learned so much from Milton. So I guess he was. He was a hardcore Scientologist. He was kind of a bad boy. Scientologist. He was always in trouble and all, you know, not toeing the line, I guess I found out in retrospect. But Scientologist for many years knew L. Ron Hubbard was kind of L. Ron's one of his little darlings, apparently, I think even, you know, before he died, blah, blah, blah. What about Milton? So, you know, it's one of those classes where when the teacher walks in, you give a hand and he sits down. And he liked to think of himself as. And I thought earned, you know, a master teacher. And at any rate, one of his idiosyncrasies is from time to time, maybe once every month or six weeks, he didn't like the vibe in the classroom. And he'd stop the fucking class and. And start attacking the class. You know, the attitude. You know, you have to have the right attitude or I'm not going to teach you. You know, you have to be willing to be taught. And, you know, this kind of thing. I'm not here to fucking audition. And he was going on this tirade, and it was like, fuck. And I'm always sitting in the front row, like, ready, let's go. Let's have a class. Because I was. Found something I was interested in, you know, and I could sit there for four fucking hours. I loved it. I loved watching class. I loved to see people get Better. I loved, like, see. You know, you see the best work you'll ever see in acting class, you'll see somebody who just doesn't get it. All of a sudden, fucking get it. I mean, it's fabulous. And so at a certain point, I felt like it was like this thing. Like, who was it that wasn't trusting Milton? And after about a certain amount of time, could have been as much as a half an hour of this, him yelling at us. And I knew it wasn't me, because I'm the guy right there, like, hungry. Let's go. And I'm looking around. Who is it? And I thought, huh? And I. At a certain moment, I thought, do I trust Milton? And I really felt it and went, no, I don't. I really. Ultimately, I don't. And then I thought, huh. Who do I trust? My parents? No. Any of my friends? And I thought about everybody. You two? No. And I'm, like, feeling worse and worse and worse. This is all going on in my mind. And I said, well, at least I trust myself. And I thought about that and felt it conceptually, and I thought, least of all. And I was like, ruined, which is a Scientology thing. That's how they get people in. They find your ruin. I found my own fucking ruin. And for some reason, I just. I don't trust anybody, including myself. And. And I. And I was like, this is not good. I don't like being this guy. I found this, and I don't like it. And you know me now. That's how I kind of still operate. I try to find things I don't like, and then I attack them. The method I came up to attack, how do I learn to trust? And I thought, let me do something totally. Just caution to the wind. And I thought, let me find out what Scientology is, huh? And that's how. And I went up to Bodie Elfman, who was doing a scene with Milton's girlfriend, who was a Scientology. I knew they were Scientology. I said, hey, give me some fucking book on Scientology. Gave me this book called what Is Scientology? A lot of pictures. This fucking thick.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

I went through the whole thing that night, and I had done drugs, and I had always felt I'd stopped doing drugs by the time I was in my 30s, but I had felt like they had affected me poorly. And there was this whole thing about getting the drugs out of your system. And I thought, okay. And next day, I went in there and I said, hey. And basically, that's how I got into Scientology.

[David Duchovny]

I never knew that I didn't know that.

[Jason Beghe]

That's the story. That's because you never asked.

[David Duchovny]

I can't be trusted. I cannot be trusted.

[Jason Beghe]

No, I know what to expect.

[David Duchovny]

So you get in there and you accept that system fully.

[Jason Beghe]

I was so wanting to, like, let me try this. This sounds good. Costs like a couple of thousand dollars. I got it on me. That's fine. And I go in there the next day, I want to do this thing called the purif.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

And I'm ready to go. And they, like, they want to give me a tour, and they want to do this. And I'm in there for fucking hours and hours, and I just want to do this fucking thing. But they're trying to sell it to me. And I was there, like, I'm ready. Let's go. And finally at the end, I said, can I just fucking buy this thing? And they said, okay, yeah.

[David Duchovny]

That was the purification, which was your. Your conception of getting the drugs out of your body. That's taking a lot of niacin and being in a sauna for a long.

[Jason Beghe]

Time, like five hours a day.

[David Duchovny]

So that's not the. That's not the philosophy. That's not the system. That's just, like, how you got to get your body and your mind to a certain place before you can even start to. On the road.

[Jason Beghe]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Jason Beghe]

Yes, yes.

[David Duchovny]

So once. Once you start walking down that road, what is it about that system that resonates with you that works? Because it did. It did. And in many ways, it came to.

[Jason Beghe]

Replace the full circle. I'll tell you what it is.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

So they tell me that in order to do the purif, you also have to do this thing called trs, which is training, routines and objectives, which is a way to learn how the end phenomenon of this small course that they claim is to be firmly rooted in the present time.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Jason Beghe]

I said, that sounds good. Okay, give me that, too. So that and the purif together was, you know, whatever, 2,500 bucks. Okay. I said, can I just start this purif thing? They said, well, you got to start the trs. I'm like, okay, back to school, right? So you read this thing and you learn about this thing. And basically, you sit three feet away from somebody and you do a thing called TR0, where you just confront a person, and that's the beginning, and there's others. You know, you gotta be able to confront a person who's, like, pushing your buttons, and there's a whole bunch of stuff. And you learn how to communicate as Part of this whole thing. But the first thing is just sit there, be there comfortably, and confront. Which is their definition is face without flinching. And it could be an hour or two or whatever. You're just sitting there looking in somebody's eyes, and they're looking at you. And here's the thing that got me into Scientology is that I'm doing that fucking exercise. And per their definition, I left my body. They call it going exterior. And I felt separate from my identity and myself. I felt the difference between. Which is another thing I experienced when I died was in the coma.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

Which is I felt a difference between Jason Beghe and me.

[David Duchovny]

Let's just quickly say Jason had a horrific car accident. What year was that?

[Jason Beghe]

Like 2000. 2000.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

No, 99.

[David Duchovny]

Should have. Should have been dead September 12th.

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah, I died. I broke my neck, my back, all this.

[David Duchovny]

So that's what you're referring to when you're saying going exterior.

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah, but that moment. Here's the fucking full circle in our little discussion, though. That moment where I went exterior and I felt the difference between being Jason and just being. I finally answered that question that I'd been asking myself in the mirror. Who am I? I felt like I knew who I was for the first time, and that was all I'd ever wanted my whole fucking life. And I said, holy shit, I'm in. And that day, I went and I bought my entire bridge to clear. I think I gave them 50 grand that day. And I'd been in two days.

[David Duchovny]

Wow.

[Jason Beghe]

How's that for learning how to trust? And the bitches betrayed me. That's the end of the story. I'll never trust anybody again. That's what I learned, the whole thing. Don't trust anybody.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, God.

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah. Can you believe it? It's good, though. It's. Hello, I'm James Corden, and on my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth. From Dr. Dre to Julianne Moore to David Beckham to Cynthia Erivo to Martin Scorsese to Jeremy Renner to Denzel Washington to. To Kim Kardashian. We talk about the people, places, possessions, music, and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Duchovny]

As we remain friends, but we kind of drifted apart a little bit. I mean, we both had.

[Jason Beghe]

Well, they told me I. They wanted me to get you in because you're this famous actor, and, you know, you're this guy, and you're my best friend.

[David Duchovny]

Well, we had the wed. You got married at the C Center, and.

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were my best man.

[David Duchovny]

I was your best man. But that day, I went in and I squeezed. I squeezed the cans, you know.

[Jason Beghe]

You did?

[David Duchovny]

I did. You didn't know that, huh?

[Jason Beghe]

Oh, my God.

[David Duchovny]

I went in, and this woman was auditing me, and she started asking super personal questions, and my, My. The hair on the back of my neck went up, and I was like, I don't know that this is phony bullshit, but I do know that I don't want to talk about this with a stranger. You know, That's. That's. That's all I know. And I'm squeezing the cans, and I'm just thinking, no, I, I, I'm not. No, I, I'm sorry. I'm not going to have this conversation, you know, so it didn't go as well as yours did.

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah. But I was. I mean, I had set myself up to try and completely give over.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

Let down all my defenses, and I was on this mission to trust, and of course, I picked the wrong people.

[David Duchovny]

Well, but that's. I don't know if that's.

[Jason Beghe]

I don't have any regrets.

[David Duchovny]

No. Well, that's the thing.

[Jason Beghe]

Out of it.

[David Duchovny]

Well, that's the thing. It's your mission. That's always been your. You're looking for something. You know, that's. That's how we started this conversation. It's like, you. You've been a searcher, and this. Whatever this mirage was, it wasn't the thing, but there were some things in it that were worthwhile to you. It certainly took over your life. And one of the things that I think was, you know, what I consider my failure in that time was being aware that I don't. I don't know. You know, what happens when somebody goes into Scientology, probably into any kind of philosophy or religion, is their vocabulary changes because it's. It's really. It's a. It's a brainwashing. And it's. That's. That starts with language, you know, so you don't call this thing recognize or getting to know somebody. You call them confronting, you know, sort of. There's all these, you know, you had all this language, and all of a sudden you were speaking to me in a different language, which scared me, and I didn't trust and. But I didn't have. For whatever reason. I didn't call bullshit on that. I guess I Sensed that I couldn't, you know, that you were kind of in so deeply that if I try to call bullshit, I don't even. And I didn't even know that it was bullshit or not either. I didn't know enough about it to. To call bullshit. But I. You know, I couldn't confront somebody being that percentage of a believer, you know, that percentage of a systems believer, and you, of all people. And I didn't get into that with you because I just. I don't think I wanted to. To try to puncture that. I didn't want to have that fight. And I regret that. You know, I regret. Even though I know that probably couldn't have persuaded you at that point, can I give you.

[Jason Beghe]

Because I was there, I was in it, and I got out.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

And in retrospect, your behavior was almost perfect as a friend, in retrospect, because you never made me wrong. You maintained your own position in space and your own integrity. You mirrored my level of closeness and warmth. And I felt, because I know you, that you judged me, but you kept it to yourself. And you didn't judge me to the point of knowing you were right, but you weren't ready to go over to the other side.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Jason Beghe]

And it forced me to respect that. And I remember they. When I would be kind of asked about, you know, what your status was vis a vis Scientology, at one point, they tried to sell to me that you were a suppressive person.

[David Duchovny]

You'll have to explain what that is.

[Jason Beghe]

To people that somebody. Anybody who's, like, against Scientology, that a Scientologist. If you're around them, you will not only fail, but you will have injuries, accidents, and illnesses. They're dangerous, and they're ultimately evil people, and there's a whole explanation for it. But I never bought that you were a suppressive person, you know, so, you know, there was things that I just kind of suspended, you know, belief and ignored and, you know, when I finally found my way out, which was a number of things, including, you know, there's a. There's a moment where the bell goes, oh. You know, and you realize in that moment, all of these things, you go, ah. And it can. Can kind of go, oh, for a year or two. Oh. But one of those things that were like, yes, was you.

[David Duchovny]

You.

[Jason Beghe]

Your behavior. So I'm not, you know, obviously not here to try to make you feel better, because I know you're not losing sleep over this, but I want to tell you that you may feel shitty about that. You should have done more. It's Kind of like, listen, you did it. It's like, for instance, I have, you know, a guy I know who's got a girlfriend that I don't think it's the right girlfriend. And they got into the point where, you know, he was like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think I'm going to commit. And I thought, I'm going to tell you that I don't think it's the right thing for you to commit to. I don't think she's, you know, a bad person or anything like that, but I just want to go on record, right? And he's like, well, I disagree. And it was uncomfortable for, you know, a little bit, but we're close enough that, you know, he's allowed himself to forget that we had that conversation. But I feel good now that I've done it. I support him because I support him. You know, I don't hate her. I just don't think she's the right girl for him, you know, and I wish them well and all that. And I don't. I'm not in the way. I don't try to sabotage anything, but I do as I felt it was my duty as a friend to give him the opportunity, out of, you know, the respect that he affords me, to let him know clearly what my opinion was right for him.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

And in a sense, I feel like you did that without actually having that conversation.

[David Duchovny]

Okay, well, I. I appreciate that, and I. I. I'll. I'll take it in. When you were in Scientology, it became like your. Your career. I mean, because you didn't. You. You stopped working quite a. You know, it was more important to you than. Yeah, and. And I'm not. And I'm not judging that at all. Like, it's.

[Jason Beghe]

No, no. I did what I wanted to do.

[David Duchovny]

You did what you wanted.

[Jason Beghe]

I was more interested in that.

[David Duchovny]

And then. And then, beautifully, I thought your. Your response was at the end, like, why? I think I remember asking you, you know what. Why did you want to get out? You know, ultimately? And you were like, I want my money back. It doesn't work. Which was like. Which was like, you know, because you get all these people coming out of Scientology, you know, like, oh, I'm traumatized this. And, like, whatever, you know, but it's like, you were just like, hey, you know, the shit doesn't work. Give me my money back. And that was. That was the whole thing. But when you came out of there and you. You did need to work because you had A young family, you know, and now you find yourself in your 40s or late 40s, and you're like, fuck, you know? Yeah, now I got some responsibilities and people are counting on me and. And I haven't worked in a while. And I. I remember. What I wanted to see you do is I wanted to bring that the anarchy that you were in touch with when you were a kid, the lack of system, the courage to kind of live. And I was like, I've never seen Jason. He's the funniest person that I know and I haven't seen. I really want to see him do that in his work. And I was so happy that we got to. To do that in California Cajun, because it is one of the funniest parts that I've ever seen. And there's nobody that could have done it like you, because you are fearless and fearless comedically, and that was really satisfying for me. And when I look back at your career, we talked about you getting this job at Chicago PD as pulling. Getting an inside straight. Pulling a fifth card to an inside straight because it's not supposed to happen to somebody. How old were you when you got that job?

[Jason Beghe]

50 something.

[David Duchovny]

You're not supposed to get that network lead at that point. And now here it is 13 years later, and this is incredibly successful show, and you've made this culturally indelible character. So it's all it. I don't.

[Jason Beghe]

You know what the funny thing is, though? When I was thinking, I gotta go get a series. Yeah, I thought ideally it'd be a dick wolf show. But you know what? The one thing that I fucked up, that I was what I was pushing because I had a goal.

[David Duchovny]

Really?

[Jason Beghe]

Yeah. I wanted to get on a series, and I even made the postulate of a dick wolf show, but. Because that's why I'm always careful, like, not to set goals, because you usually get them and they're usually ego driven. And that's not a recipe for success.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Jason Beghe]

That's the difference between Jason and me.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

Jason's goals are not mine. So I try not to set goals because I don't trust Jason. Still. I want it to be like number eight on the call sheet.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, right.

[Jason Beghe]

I didn't want to be the lead. Too much fucking work.

[David Duchovny]

Well, let me also tell you, just like in terms of you say number eight, and I have actually have this written down, like, the last thing I wanted to talk to you about was being number one on the call sheet, because that's not something that that kid ever wanted. You didn't want that responsibility. You didn't want that system. You don't want to. You don't want to be in a system that has numbers in it anyway. And if you're going to be a number, you'd rather be number eight. But what I. What I see is a show is. Is a big machine. It's a big system. How many people are employed by that show? You're the leader on the set. You're number one, and you've been doing it for 13 years. And forget about sitting still for 45 minutes. You got to sit still on set for how many hours a day, how many months out of the year? And you're doing it with joy, and you're not complaining, I don't think. Yeah, so look at that.

[Jason Beghe]

I learned that from you. But I gotta go back to the first thing now that you said, because I know you wanted to wrap up, and this might be perfect. So you started this podcast, I guess, with talking about me in a way that moved me, and. And it made me feel understood. And I think, like. And I feel the same way after that acknowledgment that you just gave me. And I don't think that there's a lot of people on this planet, maybe uniquely you, maybe not, but certainly you are. Who can. Who can. I feel that. That feeling again. And I don't feel that feeling a lot. And it's a feeling of. I feel good about myself, and I feel, You know, like a lot of people want to win an award, like an Oscar, or. That's how I feel when you say that to me. Like, that's.

[David Duchovny]

I understand, because I.

[Jason Beghe]

But you. That's what I'm trying to say is that you understand me better than I understand me, and I don't give myself that credit. And I think you're right, and I'm giving myself the credit for the first time because I hadn't thought about it. But it makes me feel good about me. And that's a hell of a thing to give me, David. And I love you for it.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I love you. And I think it's not a small thing, and it's not something that people talk about either. It's not something that actors get credit for either. So I'd like to give you that credit.

[Jason Beghe]

Well, thank you. I appreciate it coming from you. And I know you know the job.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I know the job. And also, I have to pee. Ah, yeah.

[Jason Beghe]

Okay.

[David Duchovny]

Jason.

[Jason Beghe]

Goodbye.

[David Duchovny]

Thanks for being here. And I have one final question for you. Can you beat that Dutchman team?

[Jason Beghe]

Hell no.

[David Duchovny]

Hey, lots of thoughts after having the conversation with my old dear friend Jason McGay. And the first thing I would talk about to you guys is it put me in touch with the, with gratitude around having an old, old friend and the not necessity because not everybody can have one, but the utility, the depth of having an old friend because you can check in at different times of your life. You can go through different stages. You know, you're not married to that person, but they're, they're with you through every stage. They're with you through every five year increment, ten year increment. They're with you for the marriage, they're with you for the, the children, they're with you for the career, they're with you for the, the aging, you know, they're with you over the years. And to have someone that knew you when, and I'm not talking about when you weren't famous, I'm talking about when you were a kid and has watched you change and transform over the years from this to that or the other thing. It's an invaluable, there's the word, it's an invaluable asset to have. That sounds clinical, but those are the words I'm using for each of us. For Jason and I, we can, we can check in. And he's a keeper of a version of me from many different times in my life and I'm a keeper of a version of him from many different times in his life. And I can't think of any other way because, you know, our own memories are so fallible and our own self conceptions are so flexible and hazy. It's hard for me to think back to my 14 year old self and get any kind of objectivity and he's, he's there to say, no, you're misremembering. I'm not talking about specifics, I'm just talking about feel, you know. No, you got it wrong. You were this kind of person, you were that kind of person and then you, then you, then that grew into this and that grew into that. So all that stuff, hey rookie, my dog just walked in. All that stuff is put me in touch with all of that as we, as our conversations conversation yesterday ranged back, you know, in time to the beginning of our friendship was when we were 14 to now when we're 64. There's more Fail better with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode subscribe now and Apple Podcasts. Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi, Donnie Matias and Paula Kaplan. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinsky and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowland and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier.

[David Duchovny]

More productive, and more creative?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions Solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin Podcast, My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and.

[Jason Beghe]

Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from lemonada Media.