Fail Again: The Buoyancy of Rob Lowe

Summary

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Fail Better with David Duchovny

Episode: "Fail Again: The Buoyancy of Rob Lowe"

Lemonada Media | February 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this deeply insightful exchange, host David Duchovny sits down with longtime friend and actor Rob Lowe to discuss the central theme of failure—not as a scarlet letter, but as a source of growth, resilience, and, ultimately, buoyancy. The two trace Rob’s journey from 1980s stardom, through personal and professional setbacks, to enduring happiness, marriage, and a thriving career. They touch on childhood wounds, marriage and parenting, the changing landscape of show business, shame, humility, and spiritual growth—all with humor, candor, and warmth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Banter: Cold Plunges, Birthdays, and Roasts

• [03:44] - [07:50] The conversation starts with lighthearted jokes about their wintery attire and cold plunges before shifting to Rob’s 60th birthday roast, hosted by Gwyneth Paltrow and Robert Downey Jr.
  • Memorable quote:
    "Turning 60 is not for sissies." (Rob Lowe, 05:42)
  • The roast leads to a recurring theme: Rob’s openness to being lampooned as a form of strength. Duchovny suggests that this “buoyancy” is a signature part of Rob’s character:
    “Rob is buoyant…He bobs along these turbulent waters, but he’s always on top of the water.” (David Duchovny, 07:10)
• Rob credits his willingness to be the butt of jokes to both his heroes and his own melancholic childhood.

Childhood, Divorce, and the Roots of People-Pleasing

• [08:45] - [11:20] Both men discuss the long-term impact of their parents’ divorces.
  • Rob remembers being a melancholy kid post-divorce and notes his impulse to “people please” and be funny as a way of coping:
    "I was melancholy. Like a melancholy kid." (Rob Lowe, 09:33)
  • Duchovny shares his own fatherless upbringing and how it shaped his approach to parenting:
    "I felt like I was making it up, you know. I felt like I was just treading water." (David Duchovny, 10:54)

Marriage & Forgiveness: How to Fight Well

• [13:18] - [19:01] Rob discusses his 34-year marriage to Cheryl and their shared commitment not to repeat the trauma of their own childhood divorces.
  • Practical advice from therapy: During fights, each partner talks uninterrupted for five minutes. Hearing yourself back can “deflate” anger:
    "Do you know how hard it is to talk for five minutes, no matter how angry you are, without any feedback?" (Rob Lowe, 17:05)
  • The power of forgiveness is emphasized as key to their longevity.
• Rob shares an anecdote about a therapist’s assignment: stand in front of a McDonald’s and ask strangers where McDonald’s is, to examine his own comfort with public embarrassment.

The Nature of Memory & Storytelling

• [21:24] - [23:14] The conversation turns meta, as Rob notes how telling stories repeatedly for his one-man show has warped his own sense of what’s real:
  • “When we remember an event or a story, we’re not actually remembering the event or the story. We’re remembering the last time we remembered the event.” (David Duchovny, 21:24)
  • This leads to a meditation on the reliability of memory and the subtle distances we grow from our own stories.

Onstage Authenticity & the Audience as Co-Star

• [25:34] - [27:49] Duchovny points out the audience's transformative role in any live performance, not as mere spectators but as the other "character" in the show.
  • "It's not a monologue, it's a dialogue… and you've got to be alive and improvisational." (David Duchovny, 25:43)
  • Rob lights up at this description and describes the experience as the reason he returns to the stage:
    “You feel alive, present, improvisational, on point, keyed up, focused.” (Rob Lowe, 26:15)
  • Both reflect on the connective, almost spiritual power of live performance.

Family Patterns & the Meaning of Work

• [28:04] - [34:24] Rob shares the story of his grandfather, a talented artist who gave up his craft for financial security, only to suffer as a result. This underscores the ongoing tension between artistry and earning a living.
  • Rob is adamant:
    “I don’t subscribe to the issue… that your relationship between commerce and art is a correlation of your level of artistry.” (Rob Lowe, 31:47)
  • Duchovny admits that childhood scarcity still shadows his anxieties, regardless of success.

Shame, Humility & Sobriety

• [39:46] - [51:32] Duchovny raises the subject of shame as both a regulator for social behavior and a source of personal limitation.
  • Rob shares how, in his youth, he overcompensated by becoming “impervious” to shame. Only in sobriety did he learn the difference between healthy shame (the basis of social morality) and destructive forms.
  • The “shameless creature” story—a character Joel Schumacher based on Rob—captures Rob’s shifting self-awareness around shame:
    • “To have no shame, you just, you follow the logic to its ultimate conclusion, you have no morality.” (Rob Lowe, 45:27)
  • Both reflect on the practice of humility over humiliation—a distinction they believe is misunderstood in modern culture.
    • “The real, real, real goats…They’re all unbelievably humble, all of them. It’s the pretenders that have no humility.” (Rob Lowe, 50:15)

Resentment, Recovery, and Spiritual Practice

• [51:58] - [57:11] Rob details how ongoing recovery requires relentless daily work on resentments—the real trigger for relapse.
  • “It’s having a resentment is like drinking poison and meant for your enemy.” (Rob Lowe paraphrasing, 53:27)
• Both describe the illusion that self-work ends at a finish line, when in reality it is perpetual:
  • "It’s a daily practice in many ways… you actually have to exercise it daily." (David Duchovny, 53:43)
• The conversation moves to spirituality, as Rob recalls how faking faith out of necessity became genuine through lived experience (“fake it till you make it”).

Legacy, Regret, and Living Apology

• [58:17] - [61:14] Duchovny lauds Rob for his resilience and the way he displays hurt without self-pity.
  • “Your apology has been… the most beautiful because it's the way in which you live your life.” (David Duchovny, 60:17)
• Rob acknowledges the ongoing challenge of knowing what to reveal and what to hold private, ultimately circling back to the value of simply making “the next right choice.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments (by Timestamp)

• Rob Lowe on Roasts & Buoyancy:
  • “But it’s my shit. Yes, there’s nothing worse than being forgotten.” (07:50)
• Duchovny on Divorce's Impact:
  • “I did not believe that you could do a divorce well… it is a trauma for the child, no matter how well you do it.” (11:09)
• On Fighting Well in Marriage:
  • “You fire your most angry shot, and it lands with a thud because they're not allowed to say anything for five minutes…” (17:05)
• On Fame & Generosity:
  • “To me, that’s what a star is… That was your character. It speaks to your character.” (36:39)
• On Memory:
  • “We’re not actually remembering the event, we’re remembering the last time we remembered the event…” (21:24)
• Resilience through Setbacks:
  • “Every great artist you can name painted for money.” (32:17)
• Humility in Greatness:
  • “The real, real, real goats…all unbelievably humble, all of them.” (50:15)
• On Recovery & Resentments:
  • “Having a resentment is like drinking poison meant for your enemy.” (53:27)
• On Living Amends:
  • “Your apology...is the way in which you live your life.” (60:17)

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Segment Timestamps of Note

• 00:00 – 02:08: Ads, show intro (skipped)
• 03:44 – 07:50: Birthday roasts & personal buoyancy
• 08:45 – 11:20: Impact of parental divorce
• 13:18 – 19:01: Longevity of marriage, therapy, and forgiveness
• 21:24 – 23:14: The mutability of memory in storytelling
• 25:34 – 27:49: Audience as essential to live performance; acting’s “alive” moments
• 28:04 – 34:24: Family history and the meaning of work
• 39:46 – 51:32: Shame, humility, sobriety practices
• 51:58 – 57:11: Recovery and the ongoing struggle with resentment
• 58:17 – 61:14: Grace, legacy, and living a life of quiet apology

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode is candid, warm, and frequently self-deprecating. Both Duchovny and Lowe move fluidly between humor and vulnerability. Their shared history, including time working together, adds an undercurrent of affection and authenticity.

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Summary Takeaway

Rob Lowe engages with the theme of failure not by burying pain or shame, but by letting it teach resilience, humility, and joy. He is buoyant—not invincible, but floating and pressing forward. This deeply personal episode offers practical wisdom on relationships, recovery, humility, and self-knowledge. Both actors model how acknowledging and learning from pain leads not just to surviving failure, but, as Beckett suggests, to failing better.

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For listeners seeking strategies for confronting personal setbacks or simply craving thoughtful, funny, and unguarded conversation about how we grow, this episode delivers.

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hiya, Julia Louis Dreyfus here from the Wiser Than Me podcast. Among other things. And I've got a bit of a hot take. Our relationship to our food can feel disconnected. We don't always know how or where our food is grown. And if we throw food scraps in the garbage, we don't think about where it's going. Or at least we try not to. One way that I get back a little of that connection is by using my mill food recycler. Sure, mill has totally changed my home life in a lot of practical ways. It works automatically. You can fill it for weeks. It never ever smells. But this is also really important. When I use mill, I'm participating in a circular system. All the food I don't eat is helping to grow the food that I do. It makes me feel like I'm part of something bigger. And that feels really, really, really good. And it's all so ridiculously easy. I just drop my scraps in my mill and it transforms them into nutrient rich grounds overnight. I have mine sent to a small farm, but if I wanted to, I could use them in my garden or for my backyard chickens if I wanted backyard chickens. And I don't know, maybe I do now, maybe I don't. Anyway, maybe mill is transforming me too, just a little. If you want to feel more connected or you just want your kitchen to feel less gross, try. Try Mill's risk free trial and just live with it for a while. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey, it's me, Steve Burns. And I'm so glad you're here because you and I go way back, right? Yeah. And look at us now, like we're all grown up. We've got this new podcast where we talk about all this grown up stuff and there's special guests like Jamie Lee Curtis and Bill Nye, but for the most part, it's about you. I mean, it's always been about you. From Lemonada Media Alive with Steve burns is coming September 17th. Wherever you get your podcasts or you can watch every episode on YouTube.

[David Duchovny]

Lemonada. I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better. A show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Rob Lowe is an actor, filmmaker and host of the podcast. Literally. He was, of course, one of the core members of the Brat Pack, very unofficial group of young actors in the 1980s who came to dominate the screen in iconic films like the Outsiders and St. Elmo's Fire. If you don't remember Rob from that era, perhaps you Know him as Sam seaborn of the hit 90s political drama the West Wing, or as the ever upbeat Chris Traeger on Parks and Recreation. Whatever you know him from, or wherever you know him from, you probably know Rob Lowe these days. You can catch him starring on 911 Lone Star and as the host of the trivia game show the Floor. He's been married to his wife Cheryl since 1991, and he's got two sons. One of them, John Owen Lowe, is a writer and actor, and they've worked together over the years, including on the Netflix comedy Unstable. Rob is a terrific guy, and we've got some stories you'll hear from us working together on Californication and even Bad Influence. Back in the day, just when I was starting out as an actor, I had the good fortune to meet Rob. So here he is, Rob Lowe, everyone. Or as I like to call him, Rob Lowe. Hello.

[Rob Lowe]

Dude, are you climbing Mount McKinley?

[David Duchovny]

I'm gonna tell you about this in a second.

[Rob Lowe]

The fuck are you. What are you. What are you wearing?

[David Duchovny]

Why do I look like this? You're asking. Well, look at you. You. You handsome. You look like you just came off the slopes. What's going on? You skiing somewhere?

[Rob Lowe]

This is my kind of California ski look. I gave more thought to this appearance than. Than any podcast I've done in years because I know that the bar is high when I got Double D. And.

[David Duchovny]

Of course, you know that the recording, the visual recording of this Will, I know, is going nowhere, but it's. It's.

[Rob Lowe]

That shows you how. How smart we are. We're spending the first five minutes talking about what we look like, A.

[David Duchovny]

What do you mean? The actors. What do you mean? The first five minutes? We're going to do the whole hour on. On. On what we're dressed like and what we look like. That's.

[Rob Lowe]

Why are you dressed like you're mountain climbing?

[David Duchovny]

All right, well, I. I was just in the cold plunge.

[Rob Lowe]

Oh, yes, the best.

[David Duchovny]

I used to go into the hot tub right after the cold plunge, but then they told me that I'm not getting the full effects. So now I come right out of the cold plunge and I'm fucking shivering for an hour.

[Rob Lowe]

And.

[David Duchovny]

Aside from the fact that I, you know, it's early, but I've got two. Two coats on, I've got the heater on, and I'm trying to.

[Rob Lowe]

You got a hoodie underneath. There's. I see at least three levels, at least two of which involve down of some sort.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I'm downed out I've got tip of the hat, old Steve Martin routine. I've got my fur underwear on, everything.

[Rob Lowe]

Yeah. The cold plunge is the sickest. Yeah, I love it. I don't have it in the current dwelling. The new place that my wife and I are putting together has got it going on.

[David Duchovny]

I'll be there. And I'm very sorry to have missed your big birthday party.

[Rob Lowe]

I was fun. You would have loved it. Turning 60 is not for sissies.

[David Duchovny]

No.

[Rob Lowe]

As we know.

[David Duchovny]

Can you tell me something embarrassing that happened at the party?

[Rob Lowe]

All of it was embarrassing. What do you mean, all of it was embarrassing? I was ripped from stem to stern by the Roastmasters. Gwyneth Paltrow and Robert Downey Jr. Who? Literally, those two. I'm telling. I don't know. I never saw Martin and Lewis in their prime. Yeah, but they don't have jack on those two.

[David Duchovny]

They were up there, so they're up there to get together at the same time.

[Rob Lowe]

Yeah. And they were so funny. You have to. I've known Downey since the. Our high school, eighth grade, high school history class, so we go back a long time. And Gwyneth I've known since she was probably 18 and in Hollywood trying to figure out if she wanted to be an actor or not. Cause I knew Blythe and her parents really well, so they were there and were just lambasting me.

[David Duchovny]

And you kind of like that. Cause you did the celebrity roast. You are a guy.

[Rob Lowe]

I do. What does it say about me that.

[David Duchovny]

What does it say about you?

[Rob Lowe]

Why do I let people be mean?

[David Duchovny]

It's not even let Rob. It's you invite it. You there. I. I think. I mean, this is. It's funny to talk about, but it is part of your superpower, I think. I think it is. When I think of you, and I do often, you know.

[Rob Lowe]

Thank you.

[David Duchovny]

I think Rob is buoyant. This is what I like. The, The. The word that comes to mind. Rob is buoyant. Rob is. He bobs along these turbulent waters, but he's always on top of the water. And it's like you just invite the shots because somehow you can take it. And somehow, you know, like part of it is like the wonderful buoyancy of your ego. Because it's like, yeah, well, at least I'm being talked about, you know, like, there's part of that. At least. At least I'm in the center of it, you know, like, it's a shitstorm, but it's my shitstorm.

[Rob Lowe]

But it's my shit. Yes, there's Nothing worse than being forgotten.

[David Duchovny]

But the other part is just a wonderful. And we could go deeper. I hope we can go deeper because this is one of the things that I get from your memoir is because I learned more about that reading that than anything else I could have done to prepare to talk to you. Because you have a lot of. There's a lot of sadness underneath, and it's not something that you ever lead with, and it's not something in your character to ever lead with that. So you lead with, yeah, I'm an asshole. Take me down. But that's not true. There's a certain kind of strength. I'm trying to figure it out because I think it's a marker of true power. You know, it's not a contradiction. I think it's part of the same thing.

[Rob Lowe]

Well, I know that the There. My sense is that there's two answers. One is the sort of surface answer, which is my heroes have always been guys and gals who can take it. Right. Who. You know, it's like, like when you'd watch. I'm just thinking of a JFK press conference.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rob Lowe]

Back in the day, he was always so funny about himself. And so there's, there's that. But the other thing is. Yeah, you're right. I mean, I, I remember being sad, you know, like just. I was like a. Sad. Like I was melancholy. Like a melancholy kid. Right.

[David Duchovny]

And. And do you think that's pre divorce?

[Rob Lowe]

Definitely post. I don't remember pre divorce, but post and then moving.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

Was really traumatic for me. The, the one, two. The two times I moved on top of it and it, and, and then I just. And I think, you know, just that sort of people pleasing, you know, wanting to be funny, you know, wanting to try to people. Please.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Yeah. Even if it means condemning yourself.

[Rob Lowe]

You know, I, I wasn't. I probably wasn't always as overtly down to, to be the lampoonery I, I. The lampoonery of it all, I think, is a. Because there were definitely times where I would do. I'd be like, oh, I don't want to. That's off limits. And I haven't felt that way about anything in at least 10 years. At least.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. My parents also divorced. I didn't have a father with me after the age of 11.

[Rob Lowe]

Did you have stepfathers?

[David Duchovny]

No, I didn't have any.

[Rob Lowe]

Literally none.

[David Duchovny]

My mother never went on another date.

[Rob Lowe]

Wow.

[David Duchovny]

So for me, when it came time to father my children, one son and one daughter, I was kind of. I felt like I was Making it up, you know, I felt like I was just treading water. Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

Did you have. Did you also go with the notion that. Well, one of the things I know is what I don't want to have happen to them. Based on your own experience as a kid. Because that's also.

[David Duchovny]

Yes, that was really all I had to go on. I mean, well, no, I don't want to denigrate my father because he was very gentle, very loving man. But for me, sadly, what I did not want to put my kids through was divorce. That was the major thing that I didn't want to put them through because I'd seen that as, you know, the. The traumatic incident of my life, my childhood, whatever, certainly to that point. And I did not believe that you could do a divorce. Well, you know, I did not believe. I believe you can do divorce better than. You know, there are better divorces than others, but it is a trauma for the child, no matter what, no matter how well you do it. That was always my point of view. I'm not sure that that's true, but that's how I felt.

[Rob Lowe]

No, you're right. I 100%, 100% agree with you. And I had the same feeling.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I was thinking. I was thinking about you, you know, thinking about that with you today because you, you went through it. You and Cheryl have been through some shit together publicly and then I'm sure privately as well. And I'm wondering if. If that was part of, you know, aside from your love for the woman, which I know is real, but was it this sense of yourself that. Okay, there's this hole inside me, Rob, that was created by this absence of your father or the absence of this couple, and I'm not gonna. I'm never gonna do that. I'm gonna fight my fucking ass off to keep this alive, to keep this whole.

[Rob Lowe]

Yeah, 100%. And. That is exactly it. It's both love for my wife, Cheryl, who I know for me is the perfect fit. So I was never under an illusion that the grass would be greener in any other way. So that's super helpful. And then it was. Once we had kids, it was like, you know, I've seen how that goes. Like you, so. And. And she was the same. She felt, and she does feel the same way. So we're 34 years in now and, you know, better. Definitely better than ever. Definitely better than ever. I always. People ask a lot, you know, when you do it like a talk show or whatever. Gary, we have a long term marriage and. Tell me what do you think about it?

[David Duchovny]

Sounded a little like Jay Leno, what you're doing right now.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey, tell me something about Trisha Garwood was here and she was saying she's giving like, a Leno era reference. And I always like, it's like, fuck Cheryl. And I don't know any more than anybody else knows, but we know how to fight and we know and we know forgiveness, the power of forgiveness, which is huge.

[David Duchovny]

Huge.

[Rob Lowe]

And everybody has their boundaries up, so big time. And the peanut gallery and all of our lives are super supportive, but only as much as it matches their values and boundaries. So, like, you know, forgiving people's humanity is, like, practically not really celebrated today. It's like, I remember when my mom got divorced the first time, and she got divorced three times.

[David Duchovny]

Really?

[Rob Lowe]

Three times? Yeah. And. And with each divorce, there was more of a cheering section for it.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

Culturally, like, you know, so she's in the 70s, she's divorced in like, 68 for the first time. And that was early divorce wasn't a big thing. And people like, oh, well, I guess good for you. And then by, you know, 77, is it good for you?

[David Duchovny]

Right?

[Rob Lowe]

And then by 85, I was like, yeah, that guy, right? That was the. That was basically the. The chronology of it and the public sentiment.

[David Duchovny]

When you. Going back to something you just mentioned that interests me is you say you and Cheryl know how to fight, you know, without. Without going into a place where.

[Rob Lowe]

Oh, I can.

[David Duchovny]

I can.

[Rob Lowe]

I can tell you exactly. Yeah, we had a great. Because we didn't know how to fight right? At all. And we had one fight early on that was the end, and it was over, right? And she was pregnant with Matthew, our first son. So we had navigate. We. We had one in the oven, and we both went to a therapist that a friend had recommended that taught her and her husband how to argue, advocate, disagree, reconcile, all of it. And it was super practical. Super, super, super practical techniques, not the least of which I remember, is if you can, okay, you're. You're lit up, your partner's lit up, you're in a fight, you know, fucking go at it. It's great. There's no holds barred, you can say whatever you want. There's no guidelines on. On triggering language or any of that. But he did say, but you go one at a time. And each of you has to go uninterrupted for five minutes. Tape recorded. Do you know how hard it is to talk for five minutes, no matter how angry you are, without any feedback? So what it takes. What it takes away is stoking the flames, being reactive, getting them to be reactive, escalating. You get to. Yeah, it doesn't escalate. You fire your. Your most angry shot, and it lands with a thud because they're not allowed to say anything for five minutes, and then you've got to listen to it back, and that's.

[David Duchovny]

Wait. Then you really listen to it back.

[Rob Lowe]

That's. It's been so long, it's unclear to me. My sense was they would get their five minutes, and then you would listen to both of them back.

[David Duchovny]

Wow, that's.

[Rob Lowe]

That's a good one.

[David Duchovny]

It's really good. And I've never heard of that, because what I'm thinking of. It must. You must. After about three minutes, you must start thinking, God, I'm an idiot.

[Rob Lowe]

That's right. That's exactly what it is. He had great ones. There was a moment where I was trying to tell him that I didn't care what people thought of me by this. See the way we can make this whole thing go full circle. Isn't this amazing? We're back to, like, me opening myself up for lampoonery.

[David Duchovny]

But I remember.

[Rob Lowe]

I remember saying. And he said, oh, you don't. You don't care what people think about you. I go, no. He goes, great. I have an assignment for you. I go, great. He was big on assignments. He goes, do you know the McDonald's on Ventura Boulevard? I go, sure do. He goes, I want you stand in front of the sign and ask strangers where McDonald's is. Doctor Steve Heller, Dr. Stephen Heller. He's since passed away, but somewhere there is a book out of print, I'm sure, called walking stick.

[David Duchovny]

Where's McDonald's?

[Rob Lowe]

Called Where's McDonald's?

[David Duchovny]

Well, I. I love that, but I have to say, and I wish Steve Heller was here to talk about it.

[Rob Lowe]

Me, too.

[David Duchovny]

That's not you, though.

[Rob Lowe]

Maybe. Maybe it was then. Maybe that's why I'm who I am now.

[David Duchovny]

No, that's just. That's. That's just like, okay, people are going to think I'm a dumbass. Or. Or is it.

[Rob Lowe]

Or.

[David Duchovny]

Or was his point you're going to go there as Rob Lowe's and. And say these things. Or is it just you're going to go there as a. As a grown man and ask this stupid question in front of McDonald's? I'm not sure it was it.

[Rob Lowe]

Well, I think the exercise was, you're going to find out where you are with it. Like, are you. Do you feel Like a fool? Why do you feel like a fool? Do you feel like a fool because you're a human being standing in front of a fucking sign that says McDonald's and going, Where's McDonald's? Or is it that you are aware of, you know, that you occupy a place in the culture?

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rob Lowe]

And then figuring out what that relationship is. My guess, it was more of that.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I think, you know, in terms of full circles, you inviting the roast is you going to McDonald's. That's what you are doing is when you're asking friends and family to come and take their shots, you're saying, tell me the stupidest thing about myself. Tell me, tell me those things. And again, that's a part. Did you go to McDonald's? Did you do it?

[Rob Lowe]

I did. I believe I did.

[David Duchovny]

You did.

[Rob Lowe]

This could also be a memory that I've made up.

[David Duchovny]

That's okay. I don't.

[Rob Lowe]

Do you have memories that you go, wait, did I do that? I think I did it. Maybe I talked about doing it and didn't do it.

[David Duchovny]

Well, you know, memory is a very interesting thing to any kind of artist. And I know you don't love that word, but I'm gonna call you artist. And I've been thinking about memory for quite a while because I think I've got a really good memory. But one of the things about memory that I've read recently, when we remember an event or a story, we're not actually remembering the event or the story. We're remembering the last time we remembered the event or the story. So depending on how many times you're remembering that, that's how many times you're actually removed from the quote, unquote factual.

[Rob Lowe]

That explains a lot. Because I've, you know, as you know, I do sometimes I haven't done it in a long time because I haven't had the time to do it, but I do a. A one man show, which is basically. It's basically stand up comedy that I don't have the guts to call standup comedy. So I call it a one man show. And I tell stories of my life and I've told certain stories so often now, and they've gotten, you know, there's a reason I'm telling them in the show. They get reactions. And I've told them so often, I've gotten so many reactions that now I doubt whether those things ever happened to me. Yeah, like, did I invent that for the show? It's weird, but. But this. Your explanation of we're not remembering it we're remembering the last time we told it. Well, if the last 30 times I've told it, it ended with a bunch of people in an audience laughing, then it really starts to fucking poison your memory.

[David Duchovny]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey everyone, it's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin.

[Rob Lowe]

You might know us as two of the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. We're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And this is what's the Plan? Your weekly guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back. This is not canned talking points. It's a real live discussion space for.

[Rob Lowe]

The pro democracy movement.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We wrestle with strategy together, we take.

[Rob Lowe]

Your top voted questions in real time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And we talk about the most impactful.

[David Duchovny]

Actions we can take.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right now.

[Rob Lowe]

Democracy is a participatory sport. The fascists win. When we sit on the sidelines, what's the Plan Is about how we get into the game.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What's the plan? Available Friday, January 23rd wherever you get.

[Rob Lowe]

Your podcast, subscribe, recruit, discuss, organize and win. That's the plan.

[David Duchovny]

What many people might not understand, it's not a one person show. The other person in the show is the audience.

[Rob Lowe]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

And every audience is going to be slightly different. Yep, a different character. So every time you go out there, it's not a monologue, it's a dialogue with the character of this audience. This particular audience. And you've got to be alive and improvisational in your stance towards the audience, even if you're not being improvisational in your stance towards your material. And I wonder how that feels.

[Rob Lowe]

It's why I do it. It's the best. I mean, your description of it just got me all pumped up. I was like, I gotta get back.

[David Duchovny]

Out there and do that.

[Rob Lowe]

Because that's exactly right. A lot. You feel alive, present, improvisational on point, keyed, up, focused. And I. If I feel that way in. In traditional show business, yeah, it's so rare that I want to break down.

[David Duchovny]

And cry, but I would imagine. I totally agree with you on that. I would imagine those moments of presence, as you describe it, presence lit up, fired up, focused. That's why we became actors in the first place. I mean, that's why. That's why we become artists. And we can go back to divorce or whatever for why us kind of people need that high. It's also God, right? It's also what people get from going to church.

[Rob Lowe]

Yeah, 100%.

[David Duchovny]

Erasing the ego, erasing the self, erasing the distance between you and that audience. You know, you're letting them in and they're letting you in. And what could be more religious than that? You know? And I, I don't. I don't mean to say we're doing God's work or anything like that, but I am.

[Rob Lowe]

David.

[David Duchovny]

Come on.

[Rob Lowe]

I think everybody knows that.

[David Duchovny]

It's just. Do you think that there are some people that need that, or do you think all people need that?

[Rob Lowe]

Everybody needs it. Everybody. Everybody needs it. And they, they. But they need their version of it. And we all need it. I think differently.

[David Duchovny]

And do you think you would have needed it had you not for sure suffered in the way that you suffered as a child?

[Rob Lowe]

For sure. My. My grandpa on my dad's side was a Roosevelt era WPA public works artist. Really talented. Yeah, I have all his paintings by dad. I still have them. And he. In his group.

[David Duchovny]

What's his name? What was his name?

[Rob Lowe]

His name was Robert Lowe. And Robert Lowe's peer group all went to New York and they started that school of art that had de Kooning and everybody. And he didn't. He stayed and sold insurance because that's what his wife wanted him to do is like, we're not going to New York and starving. And, you know, he eventually drank himself to death. And I mean, it's literally a caricature. It's like he's an artist who became an insurance salesman.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

And he did not allow himself. His connection that you're just describing and, and, and, and pay the. Paid the price. And I think, I think people. It's part of human nature to, to be connected in that way. And one of the big struggles is how do people find it, how do people do it? Because, you know, he probably did have to support himself or whatever, but there's got to be another. Maybe there was another outlet for him that he never found. I don't. I think that's a, That's a. It's a puzzle everybody has to come to terms with.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. And I think it resonates for me with you, mostly because it resonates for me personally, is. And this is something I want to talk about with you a little bit. It's this, it's the idea of working for money as well, of. Of treating this art or craft. You call yourself a craftsman, I think.

[Rob Lowe]

Yep.

[David Duchovny]

But I also think you. I also think you're an artist, and I think you take yourself seriously as an artist, even though that's the last thing I think you're gonna. That would be the ultimate roast.

[Rob Lowe]

It really would.

[David Duchovny]

That's the part you don't wanna take. But I believe you have that soul in you, and I believe you still have ambition, which I think it's the key to your ambition, really. But there is. That money and security that you and I share definitely was drilled into me as a child reading your book. I see it. I'd always say, oh, Rob grew up in Malibu. Rob's that guy. That's what I assumed. And I know you. I never, I never had the conversation with you. I mean, the Malibu you described, which is, you know, fringe of. Fringe of la. Blue collar rancher slash cowboy, whatever that means in the 70s. But bring me back to the. The conflict, if there is a conflict, the dichotomy between. Here I am, I found what I want to do. Young Rob Lowe. I'm going to be an actor. But always at the back of my mind, there's going to be the other Rob Lowe who became an insurance salesman and had to support himself. So I think when I think of my choices, often I've made choices because the money was nice, you know, and. And then later on, I like to tell myself, oh, I found out it was actually about something else, you know, but sometimes I don't find that out. Sometimes I'm like, oh, that was just for money. Yeah, okay.

[Rob Lowe]

By the way, I, I don't. I don't subscribe to the issue at all. That and the relationship between commerce and art is somehow a correlation of your level of artistry. I just don't believe it. I mean, the, the Medici supported all of the great artists of the Renaissance.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rob Lowe]

Every great artist you can name painted for money.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rob Lowe]

And so that's one of the show business things of which there are many that, that I have not had an issue with. I mean, you know, if something's good, you do it, and, and if you also happen to get paid for it, so much the better.

[David Duchovny]

Right. I think I, I would agree with you 100 on that. But still, I feel like there is something in me that is. Will always be scared of not having money.

[Rob Lowe]

Okay, well, let me, let me, let me hit you with this.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

Because I've had that. I used to have it a lot, and then one day I had, like an epiphany. Might have been powered by Zoloft. I don't know.

[David Duchovny]

Could be.

[Rob Lowe]

But the. But the epiphany was what does the data tell you? And the data tells you that that's not likely. There are years and years and years and years and ups and downs and cataclysms and heights that you can all put into any kind of logical look at your life and go, that's. I could have a heart attack. I have a lot of things.

[David Duchovny]

Right, right.

[Rob Lowe]

That is not likely, based on the data. I mean, could. It could always change. Nothing's guaranteed. But trends. Every business looks. Everybody, every investor looks at trends. You know, the trend is you're David Duchovny. That's the trend.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, but that's. The data goes to one part of the brain, the lizard brain, the brain that grew up with the notion of scarcity or the worldview that there might not be enough out there.

[Rob Lowe]

Well, that other. That the other part of the brain, that's what you got to feed the Zoloft, too. That part.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I mean, looking at you.

[Rob Lowe]

Which.

[David Duchovny]

I really enjoy doing.

[Rob Lowe]

Thank you.

[David Duchovny]

I see you, you know, when you hit it immediately. And I met you and I think I told this story on your podcast. I had a tiny part in Bad Influence, which was a starring movie for you and Curtis Hansen directing, and I was club goer number three.

[Rob Lowe]

Amazing.

[David Duchovny]

But I walked into that makeup trailer, and I can see you on the other side of the trailer as I walk. And now we're talking about memory. So this could be totally. I could be making it up right now.

[Rob Lowe]

No, you're already there with the other. When you say the other side of the trailer, I know that it's true.

[David Duchovny]

Where the stars are.

[Rob Lowe]

Exactly. Exactly. I'm not. Where the. You know, whatever club number three is, I get my makeup done there.

[David Duchovny]

Luckily, there's not a partition. You know.

[Rob Lowe]

That's right. That came later.

[David Duchovny]

There's no partition. But I just remember you looking over and engaging me in a conversation. I don't remember what it was, but you were super friendly and we were laughing or whatever. We were just having a conversation. And it's one of those things for me in show business. This has happened a couple times. Once with Joan Cusack. She was super nice to me when I was basically an extra on Working Girl. Wow. And with you. And it was like. I don't know what was in your mind at the time or whatever, but you were making me feel club goer number three.

[Rob Lowe]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

You were making me feel comfortable. You were welcoming me to your set, and to me, that's what a star is. You know, all the other stuff, to me, that was your character. It speaks to your character.

[Rob Lowe]

Thank you.

[David Duchovny]

And I really want to say that I'm not blowing smoke up your ass or trying to do anything. I truly believe the character is betrayed in moments when we're not paying attention, in little moments. Not in these big moments that we're taught to look at politically, but actually in these little moments of just common human decency and generosity.

[Rob Lowe]

Well. And thank you. And like you say, not paying attention because I don't remember it.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, fuck you. My club goer number three is probably one of the best in history.

[Rob Lowe]

I remember. Did you have really good glasses in it?

[David Duchovny]

I don't know. I don't know. But here's.

[Rob Lowe]

By the way. Hang on. I gotta say.

[David Duchovny]

Okay.

[Rob Lowe]

When I came to visit your set. Yes.

[David Duchovny]

I sounded like Ed McMahon there. Yes. Yes, sir.

[Rob Lowe]

You did.

[David Duchovny]

Yes.

[Rob Lowe]

That set you did on California.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

You were. I mean, that's what it means to be you. You ran that set in a. In a way where everybody felt emboldened to play and take their best shot. And I just love making you laugh on camera. And that. That laugh was so generous and, like. Because, you know, you can make people laugh on camera and they're like, okay, well, he's. You know, they do a. Some sort of a calculus.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

And your thing was just, like, so welcoming and supportive of me. And I was just coming in for a day or two and, you know, the. You're running that show. The show is all. All you 24 7. And you made it a nice. A nice sort of adjunct of your own personality. I thought it was great. I had a blast. Hello, I'm James Corden, and on my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth. From Dr. Dre to Julianne Moore to David Beckham to Cynthia Erivo to Martin Scorsese to Jeremy Renner to Denzel Washington. Washington to Kim Kardashian. We talk about the people, places, possessions, music, and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Duchovny]

You started to do television as. As when I. I started to do television, in a way, it was a concession, you know, Right. Like, oh, not getting the movies I want gonna do TV. That's no longer the case now.

[Rob Lowe]

That's right.

[David Duchovny]

Now, TV's arguably much better than what comes out theatrically. But at least for an actor, for you to start appearing on television when you did, how did that feel? Did it feel like a demotion?

[Rob Lowe]

For sure it did, because that's. It was in those days. Now, you're right. TV has surpassed movies, in my opinion, but that didn't happen until the 2000, the 2000s. So anytime in the 90s, but I had had. This again, goes back to supporting yourself. I had two kids, and I frankly didn't give a. I was like. I was like. I wanted. I wanted to build a life outside of Hollywood. I wanted to have nice things. I wanted to raise my kids in a way that I. I wanted them. And, you know, was like. I used to remember going, what if I was any other craftsman? What if I was a architect? Would I be like, no, no. I simply refuse to design homes like that. I just. I won't do it. You'd be like, you would design whatever home you were given and do your best at it. And that was kind of the attitude that. That I took. And luckily, you know, that the landscape changed and I ended up being one of the first guys there. I remember running into Kiefer Sutherland. Kiefer Sutherland, pre 24. And interestingly, Billy Peterson, William Peterson, pre CSI.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rob Lowe]

And they both were like, bro, when I saw you on the West Wing, I was like, all right, I'll go in and talk to them about this CSI thing. And I was like, great, pay me a percentage.

[David Duchovny]

But at the moment, when you're doing it before, you see, one of the things on this podcast nominally is about failure, talking to very successful people about failure. So there's always the happy ending in a way. So just take me back to that moment because one of the things I'm interested in talking to you, Rob, about is one of the things that interests me in life is shame. Because I'm somebody that I'm very susceptible to being shamed. It's why I probably sometimes keep my mouth shut when I should speak up. And it's a lifelong struggle for me to take what is good from shame, which is usually, well, we're herd animals. We have to live in a society. And a modicum of shame is probably a good thing to have so that we can get along with other people. We can't all be just living in a world of our own rules and our own, you know, sense of shame. And the other is being crippled by it or being, if not crippled, then inhibited by it.

[Rob Lowe]

Well, let me, let me, let me hit you with this one. It was talking about shame. So I want your armchair psychiatric diagnoses. So I'm doing St. Elmo's Fire. I am like the ingenue du jour. And Joel Schumacher, I don't know. Did you ever know Joel who directed?

[David Duchovny]

I did. I auditioned for flatliners for him.

[Rob Lowe]

Right. So Joel, who was a great director, did a lot of hits, directed St. Elmo's Fire, and liked me a lot and wanted to do something else with me and wrote a script based on me and his perception of me and his experience with me. And the character's name was the Shameless Creature.

[David Duchovny]

He didn't have a name.

[Rob Lowe]

No, it was the Shameless Creature.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

And I, if I read it, I don't remember it, but I sure the remember that he had named a character the Shameless Creature after me. And I always even. And listen, you know, then I was, yeah, I've gone on a journey, a well documented journey of sobriety and all of it. And that was at the height of me being a lunatic. So I, even then, where I wasn't doing a lot of navel gazing, I was like, I'm not sure that's a really good name. I don't know much, but I think that might be a backhanded compliment at best. And it, it got me thinking about shame. And I think I went the other way with that where I felt imper. I was like, I'm going to be impervious to it.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

And then as I got sober and did the work on myself and continued, I realized, no, no, no. Shame exists for a reason.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rob Lowe]

It's society. It exists in society for a reason, and it helps us without shame. Healthy shame, then we can't have an. A consensus on morality.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rob Lowe]

And so to have no shame, you just, you, you, you follow the logic to its ultimate conclusion. You have no morality.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rob Lowe]

So I, you know, had, among the other things that I, you know, spent time working on thinking about was like, what. What's a healthy relationship with, with that. Because people today, as you, even in your, your intro to the question, people talk about being shamed, shaming and all of the sort of negatives about it.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

But they're. It's like a, it's like, it's like an element on the cultural periodic table. Like we gotta have it. We just don't want.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. And cultures around, every culture around the world has it. And, and it's a different kind of a setup in every culture. And it's like they all have a concept of shame. Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

And, and I think, you know, what would give, what would make someone blanch today is not what it would have been even two and three and four years ago. And you wonder where it, where it ends. But we don't need to talk about culture. You want to know about me personally with it. And so I, I feel like, look, career wise, I had been through.

[David Duchovny]

You.

[Rob Lowe]

Know, so many ups and downs, at least perceived that I had. I'd come out on the other side of it by the time I was doing television where I was like, you know, there's. It is what it. I had like a very much it is what it is type of moment. The other thing is I. The material was really good.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rob Lowe]

I mean, that was the thing. It was like, you know, it wasn't like, I did a show that, you know, was the West Wing for sake. It ended up being really the best one. So.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. And also challenged you, I think as an actor, in a way, you know, you have a great facility for that kind of spoken work. Like. And I don't think we would know that without the West Wing. I don't know that you would know that for sure without the West Wing. And that's. You do it so easily, so facile that I, I think people can overlook what a talent that is just to be that, you know, obviously it's Aaron Sorkin's articulateness, but you are giving your mouth to it. And that's not. It does, it just doesn't. The words don't speak themselves. You know, you have to have a certain kind of actor to do that.

[Rob Lowe]

Thank you.

[David Duchovny]

And it's not, it's not something I would have associated with you before that.

[Rob Lowe]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

If you know what I'm saying.

[Rob Lowe]

No, for sure. I hadn't ever had the.

[David Duchovny]

Nobody asked you to.

[Rob Lowe]

Nobody asked you. I'd never been handed that. That sheet of music to play.

[David Duchovny]

Right. Yeah. And I think through 12 steps, this is an interesting conversation to have. And we both have experience with, with that technology. Spiritual technology.

[Rob Lowe]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

The difference between humility and humiliation, I think, is what we have to learn again as a society, you know, because I think we've been trading a lot in humiliation for the past, however long, not pointing any fingers. To me, humility is a wonderful part of character. Not something you associate with Los Angeles or Hollywood, but when you are in the presence of somebody who is naturally, however they came by it through hard work or through nature, naturally humble, it's an extremely powerful person.

[Rob Lowe]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And I think.

[Rob Lowe]

Agreed.

[David Duchovny]

We think of often as a society, it seems now we think that the way we take a person to humility is through humiliation, and that is actually not the way to go. We only take them to inhibition and anger and revenge, ultimately at the end.

[Rob Lowe]

Yes. And I, and you know, that's powered by a lot of different cultural things. And I. The only thing that popped in my head as you were saying that was whenever I've met the real thought leaders and, and whether it's in finance, whether it's in the arts or whatever. The real, real, real goats.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

They're all unbelievably humble, all of them. It's the pretenders that have no humility. But like, if you talk to, if you're a director and you talk to Steven Spielberg, humble, you know, you know, if you're, if you talk in finance, you talk to George Roberts, found KKR humble. I mean, it's. Yeah. I don't know, part. If part of it comes from when you have nothing left to prove or if it was always there, I. That. I don't know.

[David Duchovny]

How do you feel like you've come by now? I don't think humility is something we associate with you, but I do. So if, if you accept my designation as, as having a certain amount of humility.

[Rob Lowe]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

Tell me how you came by it.

[Rob Lowe]

Well, I think I learned in sobriety. One of the main things I learned is that there's no, there's no place for resentments. And that's a huge thing, a huge key. And, and when we're in a world in, in, in a business where we are marked to market every day of our lives, you One can imagine keeping a list of resentments and, but luckily if you want to be sober, you, you can't, can't have them. I think there's a line of thinking that like that's the, the dubious luxury of normal people. But, but resentments get you to pick the bottle up again or to do whatever it is you're trying to do 100%.

[David Duchovny]

So if, if resentment is a bottle, literally, and you find yourself reaching for that, what's the technology? What's the teaching? Whether it's your personal history and knowledge at this point or AA inflected, how do you make that pivot in your daily life?

[Rob Lowe]

First of all, recognizing that that's what you're experiencing because a lot of times it can be cloaked and it can be so subtle and nuanced and full of other things that are legitimate. You are wrong, you're fud. You're angry, they owe you money, you got arrested, you, she cheated on you, you got fired from all facts and you can. But underneath it and around it, maybe even very quietly is a resentment. So if you can realize that the minute there's any resentment, any you from where I sit, you, it is, it's a, it's a no fly zone. It's like a red line. And look, I'm, I'm never perfect about it, obviously. I fucking have resentments for sure. There's no doubt about it.

[David Duchovny]

But, well, having said that, but having.

[Rob Lowe]

Said that, you people listening should be perfect.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, you.

[Rob Lowe]

It, it's, it's, it's, it's. What's that, that thing of. What is it? You know, it's having a resentment is like drinking poison and meant for your enemy.

[David Duchovny]

Preparing a poison for anime and then drinking it yourself.

[Rob Lowe]

I think something like that, something. But that is true.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Well, I think what's true sadly is that, you know, these lessons that we learn, they're not cut and dried. It's not over with. Once you get it, you don't have it. You actually have to exercise it daily. It's like you have to relearn it. Yes, daily. And that's fucking exhausting when you think about it. You know, I think the illusion that you get sold, whether through therapy or 12 steps or whatever kind of self realization that you're going to go through is that once I get there, you know, then I'll be, I'll just be okay and life will just be lived. But the hard fact and the true fact, and it's not a bad fact, but it seems to me a fact is that it's a daily practice in many ways. Of. It's a daily struggle in many ways, and it might be a disservice to look at all those books on the shelves in the self help section that promise these things, that once you get through this particular course, you're going to be okay. When in fact, it's every day from now until the end that you're going to have to try to be some version of yourself that you can be proud of.

[Rob Lowe]

100. And you have to ask for it. You have to, you know, ask whatever your version of a power greater than yourself. God, Buddha, whatever.

[David Duchovny]

Do you have a version. Do you have a version of that at this point in your life that is clear?

[Rob Lowe]

Yeah, very clear to me, for sure. I mean, I. I grew up in Ohio. You know, my parents. My grandparents were Methodists, and my mom at one point was an Episcopalian, but not practicing at all. And so I didn't grow up with any structured religion around me. And. And so I was. I was truly agnostic. Like, I could. I didn't believe. I did not believe. It just wasn't on the table at all. But I always admired. Quietly. Quietly. I always admired people of faith. I thought, that's cool. Whether they were characters in movies. God.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

Grant me the strength to take this foxhole tomorrow when we charge Pickett's Fence. Like, I was like, those guys are bad. I want to be like that. But I wasn't. And then through. Again, through. Through my recovery journey, I knew I had to believe in something bigger than me and. But I didn't really. The truth of it is I didn't have that. I didn't know what.

[David Duchovny]

I'm gonna.

[Rob Lowe]

Afraid of the ocean, by the way. People do great. Good for them.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

But I felt like. So I would pray to God and just act as if I believed it. And then one day I believed it.

[David Duchovny]

So that's a fake. Fake it till you make it.

[Rob Lowe]

Which I.

[David Duchovny]

You know, which is like. If I had an acting class, I guess that's how I'd teach it. You know, you got this role. Yeah. Just fake it. And eventually you'll be making it. You know, it'll be real. Does God. Is that God? Was it an image of any kind or is it just kind of a cloud?

[Rob Lowe]

It's not an image. I feel like I didn't need one. I felt like that would be reductive.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rob Lowe]

Like almost an insult. It's like. And part of it is, you know, that part that we plug into when we write.

[David Duchovny]

I mean, I would say in my armchair analysis that at that point in your life, whether or not you were going to find God or some version of God. I think the, the God that you became of service to was your family in many ways. You know, you subsumed your own ego, too, and said, I'm going to go to work because I have this higher vision. You know, before, I might have been servicing my stardom or my artistic integrity or my sense of myself as an actor or a star or whatever the fuck that is, but now I've got this thing very tangible. I'm living with it all the time, you know, and that must, I hate the word, but that must have been entirely grounding in some fundamental way, 100%.

[Rob Lowe]

It was. It was. Then. You're absolutely right. I couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly what it was. And, and then, like you say, it's, it's a daily. You never get there in quotes. Right. So the next phase after that is grounding and wonderful and as it was is you can't make anybody your God. Yeah, Right. So, and I see that a lot. I see that with people getting newly on their, their journeys are like, they do that and, you know, it's their relationship with their kids or they're this and that, and that's great. And it works till it doesn't work, but eventually it literally and truly has to be something outside your own.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, yeah. And the last thing I was thinking about is, you know, the sense of, of shame or of hurt. And going back to the beginning where we're talking about, oh, you know, you not only roasted on Comedy Central, but you're doing it at your own 60th birthday party. Is this guy glutton for punishment? You know, you have hurt. You have been hurt. You hurt like any other person. But the way you display your hurt, I feel has a great amount of integrity. And you've never begged for forgiveness. You've never begged. You've never made yourself. You've never, like, opened up your belly to the world and say, I'm bad. Just, just have it out with me. You've never made that kind of apology. In fact, your apology has been, in a way, the most beautiful because it's the way in which you live your life. And I can't express how much admiration I have for the way you've displayed and worked with and resolved your own hurt.

[Rob Lowe]

Oh, thank you. Thank you.

[David Duchovny]

I, I.

[Rob Lowe]

Yeah, it's, it's finding the nexus of, like, private journey, work versus public, when to share it, when not to share it. I Think at the end of the day, it's an unsolvable equation probably. So you just have to, again, put one foot in front of the other. And if you make the next right choice, whatever that is, eventually you get to a place where I have somebody who I respect and love, like you saying something like that to me.

[David Duchovny]

Okay, Rob Low business. Yeah. So much fun to talk to, Rob. You know, you have those people in your life who, you know, like we said during the conversation, we don't really stay in touch, but then when we get in touch, it's like, why am I not in touch with this guy more? And that gets to like, the heart of some of one of the things that I was talking about with Rob, about himself, which is his buoyancy. And, like, you know, I think of like a buoy, like floating across the ocean, bouncing across the ocean. Rob has a lot of enthusiasm. He's a supporter. He's. He's a. He's a lover of stuff, you know, a lover of art, a lover of film, lover of his own work in many ways, you know, and it's great. You don't envy him that because it's so generous and, you know, it's so kind of part and parcel of what this podcast is about, you know, because here's a guy who's experienced his share of failure or loss or, you know, difficult public situations, and yet he. He remains positive and he keeps going and he keeps learning. And it's like, that's exactly what this is all about at its best. You know, if it is self help, it's exactly what this would be about. And I have, I always caution myself, it's not self help. I'm not an expert and I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, but you come across a guy like this, who does it, who lives his life in this way, facing forward, and you just wonder if it's. If they're born with it, if there's a gene, if there's this buoyancy gene. Can we identify the buoyancy gene? And let's look at Rob's blood. Let's look at Rob Lowe's blood and identify the buoyancy gene. There's more. Fail Better with Lemonada, Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now. And Apple podcast Fail Better, its production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo, our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinsky and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Foreign.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

To listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads, subscribe to Lemonada Premium. On Apple Podcasts, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium Are you looking for ways.

[Rob Lowe]

To make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and.

[Rob Lowe]

Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.