Fail Again: The Family Business with Robert Downey Jr.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fail Better with David Duchovny

Episode: Fail Again: The Family Business with Robert Downey Jr.

Release Date: March 31, 2026
Host: David Duchovny
Guest: Robert Downey Jr.

---

Main Theme

This heartfelt and wide-ranging episode features David Duchovny in conversation with Robert Downey Jr., exploring the concept of failure—not as a permanent stain, but as an engine for growth, humility, and, most of all, humanity. Through personal storytelling, honest reflection, and a deep dive into Downey’s significant projects and his relationship with his late father, the episode investigates how personal history, addiction, family dynamics, recovery, and creativity intersect to shape a life—and how failing “better,” rather than never failing, is the true mark of resilience.

---

Key Discussions and Insights

1. Old Friends and On-Screen Beginnings

(02:40–07:17)

• The episode begins with Duchovny and Downey reconnecting over coffee as Hollywood neighbors and reminiscing about filming the movie “Chaplin” in the early 1990s.
• Duchovny describes the intimidating environment and how watching Downey (then age 25-26), Dan Aykroyd, and Kevin Kline work on set made acting seem more tangible and attainable:
  • Duchovny: "But I thought, it's human. It's human. I see the work. I see what’s going on." (04:57)
• Downey reflects on collaborating with iconic actors and losing the “intimidation factor” by witnessing the reality of the craft rather than its myth.

2. Family, Art, and the Movie ‘Sr.’

(07:17–13:36)

• Duchovny highlights Downey’s recent documentary “Sr.” about his late father, filmmaker Robert Downey Sr., describing it as a “work of art.”
• The film, which follows both father and son making separate yet interrelated films, becomes a vehicle for Downey to process his father’s terminal illness and their complex relationship:
  • Downey: "It’s the first time I step out of the shadow of being part of my dad’s family…and into telling my dad’s story and our story and the family story [...] it was extremely cathartic...” (09:58)
• Downey discusses starting acting at age 5, not as a career but as a way to spend time with his father—a revelation both “heartbreaking and amazing.”
• Duchovny praises Downey’s on-screen joy and “enthusiasm” for his craft, likening it to having “God in you.”

3. Redefining Failure & The Artistic Chaos of Childhood

(13:36–19:13)

• Downey reflects on how his upbringing was shaped by both creativity and instability:
  • Downey: “The whole story of my upbringing and my family is the failure of a family to capitulate to its own demise and indulgence and self destruction, you know, under the auspices of being artistically pure…” (13:36)
• The discussion covers Downey’s unique relationship with structured vs. unstructured life, contrasting Duchovny’s more traditionally “backstopped” childhood and Downey’s freeform, artistically chaotic one.
• Both men note how they sought what they lacked: structure vs. freedom.

4. Coming of Age, Disruption, and Finding Roots

(19:13–23:13)

• At age 12, Downey’s parents divorced, further destabilizing his world. He recounts bouncing between living with his mother in New York—immersed in chaos—and seeking stability by moving to California and joining theater programs.
• A pivotal, almost fateful, casting call for the film “Tough Turf” shifted the trajectory of Downey’s young career:
  • Downey: "They said, hey, short notice. But you're cast and we need you to fly to LA tomorrow... They're sending you a first class ticket on American. I was like, what? And then I never looked at back." (22:46)

5. Philosophy of Impermanence and Living Authentically

(24:14–27:49)

• Duchovny and Downey meditate on the simplicity and profundity of being present and getting in touch with “truth” amid life’s noise:
  • Downey: “We’re here, we do some stuff and then we die… you’re here, and if you’re lucky…you get bites at the apple and swings at the ball and iterations…” (24:14)
• The pair discuss shifting cultural attitudes from the counterculture 60s/70s, through the Reagan-era 80s, to present-day values around “sticking around” and “doing the next right thing.”
• Duchovny frames AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) principles as essential to both of their recoveries, especially the importance of honesty and responsibility.

6. Recovery, Rigorous Honesty, and Community

(26:13–31:05)

• Downey acknowledges his unexpected role as the “first call” for Hollywood crises around addiction:
  • Downey: "I'm one of, like, three people who's the first call for any Hollywood crisis having to do with drugs and alcohol or, you know, horrific misbehavior, which is both an honor and a…funny…” (26:53)
• Both discuss shifting from understanding and analyzing (“the booby prize”) to taking right action (“right action leads to right thinking”).
• Downey notes the importance of finding a “created family” through recovery communities, and the way community supports lasting recovery and creative work.

7. Enthusiasm, Addiction, and the Cost of Chaos

(31:31–39:41)

• Duchovny asks if Downey’s signature enthusiasm was ever linked to substance use; Downey responds that he found no creative benefit in being “in my disease,” only shame and loss.
• Downey recounts his obsession with preparing for major roles (Chaplin, Iron Man), and how channeling obsession into work—now that he is clean—became a “reason to live”:
  • Downey: “I was had like a little gehunzit of like things and…this almost prayer wheel of why not me? Which…flew in the face of every failure I’d ever witnessed, participated in or brought upon myself.” (36:13)
• The recovery journey is presented as an exercise in discipline, self-belief, and welcoming healthy obsessions.

8. The Father-Son Legacy, Art, and the Search for Redemption

(38:35–45:06)

• Duchovny draws parallels between his own literary connection to his father and Downey’s multi-generational film legacy.
• The documentary “Sr.” becomes an avenue for Downey to get closer, literally and metaphorically, to his aging father.
  • Duchovny: “You say closer, get closer, get closer…and then closer…you’re talking about the camera. But you’re not talking about…To me, it was like, oh, my God. He’s managed to metaphorically put together the two poles of his life, of a camera moving closer and him moving closer to his father…” (40:02)
• The episode ponders how art and family stories provide both closure and creative continuity, and how chaos and discipline can both become gifts.

9. Legacy, Directing, and Embracing New Failures

(45:06–54:48)

• Downey acknowledges his father’s late-life stability after addiction, and the ways in which he (RDJ) craves both chaos and domestic order.
• Duchovny lauds Downey’s ability to “play with that chaos” and fashion it into art and solid family life, honoring the gift his father gave him while wrestling with what was missing.
• A moving reading from Downey Sr.'s work forms a climax:
  • Downey (reading): "I believe in you people. I believe you can do the job, believe you can help each other, believe you can make the world a better place to live in." (48:15)
• They discuss Downey’s ambivalence and longing toward directing (with Duchovny encouraging him to “write and direct”) and the parallels between directing and fostering community.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Duchovny (on acting anxiety): "Am I fooling myself? Am I an idiot? And then I watched you guys and…it sounds like I'm saying you guys aren't fantastic…But I thought, it's human. It's human. I see the work." (04:57)
• Downey (on family legacy): “It’s the first time I step out of the shadow of being part of my dad’s family…into telling my dad’s story and our story and the family story.” (09:58)
• Duchovny (on enthusiasm): "Enthusiasm…means to have God in you. And I feel like you have that enthusiasm. It's a lowercase G, God is what I'm talking about." (12:12)
• Downey (on addiction in the arts): “We were essentially a drug cult, although I still had a work ethic...” (14:46)
• Downey (on recovery and responsibility): "I strangely was missing that critical component of rigorous honesty...Didn’t mean I was full of shit…It just meant that so many things were repressed and unconscious." (31:50)
• Downey (on persevering through failure): “It flew in the face of every failure I’d ever witnessed, participated in, or brought upon myself…Because it was a single mindedness of…there is no way that I don’t deserve to have this opportunity.” (36:13)
• Downey (reading Downey Sr.): “I believe in you people. I believe you can help each other…make the world a better place to live in. That’s it.” (48:17)
• Duchovny (on humility): "He could have felt humiliated. He could have felt defeated by certain failures in his life, but he took it as a lesson in humility, not humiliation…a little humiliation is the seed of humility…it's a master virtue." (54:48)
• Downey (on legacy and directing): “If the universe is saying anything to me, it’s that you shouldn’t be afraid to go fully into the family business…If I just keep it simple and say, I want to create community, I want to tell a story…even if it’s a good hard time…yeah, I think it’d be great.” (53:40–54:09)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Reminiscing about “Chaplin” and learning by watching peers: 02:40–07:17
• Discussing ‘Sr.’ and family storytelling: 07:17–13:36
• Defining failure in artistic and personal life: 13:36–19:13
• Downey’s parents’ divorce and finding his path: 19:13–23:13
• On life's impermanence and living truly: 24:14–27:49
• The role of honesty, action, and community in recovery: 26:13–31:05
• Preparation, obsession, and professional transformation: 33:47–39:41
• Deep insights into the father-son bond and the documentary: 38:35–45:06
• Downey Sr.’s late-life stability and passing on gifts: 45:06–47:46
• Legacy, moving forward, and creative courage: 51:12–54:48

---

Flow and Tone

The conversation is candid, philosophical, and often humorous, displaying deep mutual respect, a long-shared history, and a willingness to explore both pain and possibility. Both men are honest about their doubts, missteps, and aspirations, and model the humility that Duchovny ultimately deems the episode’s greatest lesson.

---

Conclusion

This episode serves as a powerful meditation on the value of failure as fertile ground for growth, connection, and meaning. Robert Downey Jr. embodies “failing better”—embracing chaos and creativity without losing sight of structure, community, and responsibility. Duchovny and Downey’s rapport—equal parts wit, wisdom, and weathered vulnerability—offers a blueprint for reframing what it means to falter, to learn, and to move forward, both in family and in art.

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hi, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus here and I can't wait for you to hear our new episode of Wiser Than Me with Cyndi Lauper on Amazon Music. Cyndi may be a girl who just wants to have fun, but for 40 years she has brought playfulness and a dash of punk to some serious activism. We talk about her lifelong LGBTQ advocacy, her astonishing music career, and pick up a whole lot of wisdom along the way. Listen now only only on Amazon Music, included with Prime.

[David Duchovny]

Hey, just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of Fail Better ad free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, the Sarah Silverman podcast, and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show in Apple Podcasts. Make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Robert Downey Jr. Is one of Hollywood's most beloved and versatile actors whose influence extends far beyond his movie roles. He made his on screen debut at the age of five in the film Pound, written and directed by his father. He's since appeared in over 70 films, from his unforgettable portrayal of Tony Stark in the Marvel Cinematic Universe to his powerful performances in films like Chaplin that I was in at Oppenheimer. Robert has grown to be one of the highest grossing actors of all time. But his story is about more than just fame. It's about resilience, reinvention, and finding redemption. We talk about recovery and why it's important for him to help others within the industry. We also spend some time exploring the documentary he made about his dad called Senior and the impact that's had on his healing journey. Robert and I have known each other for over 30 years. When I did Chaplin and we're neighbors and I had a great time catching up with him, we started this conversation by drinking his seriously delicious Java Happy coffee.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

And you know, you want to let it settle for a second.

[David Duchovny]

Okay.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

But we can, I hope the sound of pouring this while we're recording, while

[David Duchovny]

we're good, we have this probing each other. We have the sound of, of beautiful iced coffee pouring over ice.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

It's happy coffee.

[David Duchovny]

Happy coffee. Well, let me look.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

It's ready. Try it cheers.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, that is good.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah, we don't around. Howdy, neighbor. It's so wild, man. We are literally a hop, skip and a jump from each other.

[David Duchovny]

We are. We are.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

And having known you literally forever.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

And then having been able to reunite on the sympathizer a couple clicks back down the road, it's so funny. It's why any neighborhood you're in, it can be the gift that keeps on giving. In most cases, strong fences make for good neighbors. But, dude, this is great.

[David Duchovny]

I know. We have to take advantage of it.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Well, we do go back a long ways because of Chaplin, which not many people know that Robert Downey was in Chaplin. I think of it as my movie, really big time.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

As Raleigh Tothero. So you have the best line in the movie.

[David Duchovny]

Which is it?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

It is. Hey, Raleigh, how's the light? It's better down at Barney's Bar.

[David Duchovny]

I said that.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah. It was supposed to be Barney's Beanery, but I think we were worried.

[David Duchovny]

Worried about Barney's Beanery.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

It might have just been called Barney's back then,

[David Duchovny]

but what I remember. I don't know if I've ever thanked you for this, but when I got that job and when I was on that set and that set was just chocked full of big time actors and you were just coming up at that point, I mean, you were 25.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah, 26. 25 and 26. Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And it was really for me, watching you work and watching the other guys work, like Aykroyd and Kevin Kline, as I recall. And this is gonna sound oddly arrogant, but what I got out of that was like, I think I can do what they're doing. Because before that I was like, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

I don't know.

[David Duchovny]

I just started. I don't know. I don't know. Am I fooling myself? Am I an idiot? And then I watched you guys and it sounds like I'm saying you guys aren't fantastic, which you were. You were amazing. But I thought, it's human. It's human.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

I see the work. I see what's going on.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Well, and just to. To go back to that Klein Ackroyd, these are guys who are in the middle of their sweet spot.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

And they're basically, you know, batting 500.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Every time. That said, I couldn't agree with you more. If you want to lose the intimidation factor, go see the reality of anything.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

And I to this day am always amazed at how good everyone Else is considering the fact that we're all only as good as the magic carpet that either appears underneath us or not, depending on, you know, the rest. Fill in the blanks. Material, opportunity, preparedness, mood. Are you doing that 70% maintenance of self so you can show up? What I recall about you so distinctly was everybody was on this one, kind of leaving the 80s, going into the 90s page, and you were hanging back in the pocket and being really subtle on film, which it took me until the end of the shoot to realize that the times that I was doing that, Attenborough was loving it, and the times that I wasn't approaching that, he was wishing I would just get back to it.

[David Duchovny]

Well, but you were also embodying a known figure. I mean, there was no real hanging back. I mean, you had a. Yeah, it was legendary.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Sure.

[David Duchovny]

Image to portray.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah. And funnily enough, you know, I think when you're in your mid-20s, in some ways, you'll never get better than those early experiences when you don't know better than to just say, well, this is my approach and I'm going all in. And at the same token, it's just amazing to be sitting here with you. That was 1990, 33 years ago.

[David Duchovny]

Plus, when I was reading up on you. It's weird to read up on someone, you know, because what happens invariably is I. You know, we're storytellers. We look for the story. We look for a pattern. We look to try and put it in a template. And I look at you and I'm thinking, okay, this is a father son story. Because I'm watching Senior again, and I just have to say that is a beautiful movie. That is a work of art. And I don't know if you haven't seen it, it's on Netflix. It's a movie that Robert did about and with his dad. And in fact, I mean, before I get into it, what you call the bullshit concept of the movie is you're gonna make a film and your dad's gonna make a film, which I love. I mean, it's the perfect edible film. It's like, who's gonna win? The son or the dad? But does your dad's version exist?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

It does.

[David Duchovny]

Can I see it someday?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

A million percent. As a matter of fact, my friend Kevin Ford, who was the one that dad co opted into Team Senior, and Chris Smith, who was the de facto

[David Duchovny]

director,

[Robert Downey Jr.]

just to set it up a little bit. The conceit was it's this documentary that really happened as an avoidance pattern between me dealing with my dad being terminal. And then what happened along the way is I knew the only way to capture him was. Was to get inside his avant garde mind and tell him it's just the project and what's the project and all that stuff. So I never wanted to feel like I was. I never wanted to feel like I was duping my dad into doing what I thought he should do. And honestly, it was Susan, it was Mrs. Downey who kept locking in with Chris Smith and going, are we getting a story here? Does this have a beginning, middle and an end? And we always knew, probably. And I even said it to him at one point. I was like, dad, you don't really have a third act until you kick it. So what's the trajectory here? And at that point, he was very aware of the clock. And it wound up being this beautiful and extremely cathartic thing, which kicked off this little bit of a revolution I've had in the last five years.

[David Duchovny]

You draw a line directly to that.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

I have to, because it's the first time I step out of the shadow of being part of my dad's family and that story and into telling my dad's story and our story and the family story. So it's kind of like it's not being afraid to grab the steering wheel of the narrative and try to steer it in an honest direction.

[David Duchovny]

Well, what I found, there's. There's so many things that I. If you don't mind. No, please talk about. About this movie. Because I. When I was thinking of, you know, what is. What is the story that I. That I would want Robert to tell or enjoin Robert to tell today. And it is that. Exactly. It is. You know what. What is shocking is that you say at one point in the film, I was known as Bob Downey's son for a long time. And that there is this kind of sense of entering into his arena as a director as well. And for me, the most moving part of the whole thing is when it is said at some point. I don't know if it's you. I think it's you. You say you're talking about acting and starting acting. Cause you were how old when you acted in your dad's films?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

5, 5, 6, 7?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. You said you didn't think of it as acting. You thought of it as spending time with your dad, which is both heartbreaking and amazing. When you think, I wonder too, you know, if it's still on that level. Because you take a great joy in acting. That's one of the things that I love about your work, aside from your technical expertise, is you enjoy your own spirit, you enjoy your own energy, and we all take part of that as well. We all enjoy it with you. I'm not talking about narcissistically, I'm not. I'm not talking about exhibitionistically. I'm talking about, you know, enthusiasm is a word. It's like, it's a Greek derived word that means to have God in you. And I feel like you have that enthusiasm. It's a lowercase G. God is what I'm talking about.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

I'll take it.

[David Duchovny]

Okay, so this is what I'm saying. And when you complicate that with a boy just wanting to spend time with his father.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Then I'm like, oh, this is a story, boy.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

It is. It is. It is my story. And it's. And you're dead on because it's that Russian dolls trippy thing of which doll is trauma. What dolls? Outside of that one, what's the overall. Well, what's the one that you got to take off right away just so you can actually even do the job? And I think enthusiasm, when it's not entirely exhibitionism.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

But. And, and you know, because we had. There was times when we were doing scenes just, you know, year before last, we were like, oh my God, we're out there doing that. This feels great.

[David Duchovny]

Yes, but I got that from you. Like you put me back in touch with. I mean, not that I've lost it completely, but working with you, there is that sense. And I learned, I learned that again with you because I would like to bring that to other people when I work with them. You know, the sense of. Well, it is really just play, really. So it's the sense of play. And your father said, you know, from the moment you were on film, you were possessed. That was the word he used. But it's really this sense of play that I think is the enthusiasm. And I also think it's hard to have a discussion about failure when you're talking about play, because there is no failure or success in play.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

No, but there's the redefining what failure is and what it can lead to. And look, the whole story of my upbringing and my family is the failure of a family to capitulate to its own demise and indulgence and self destruction, you know, under the auspices of being artistically pure, which really, I think was co opted by a genuine collect, narcissistic, addictive type of entity. So speaking of possessed, I mean, that is, that's you know, but again, it was the, the. It was one of the spirits of the time, was not just counterculture, but even like counter reality. And even in, you know, some recovery groups, when they're talking about, you have to find a power greater than yourself. And, you know, some of you may be agnostic because in the past you had organized religion. I was like. My religion was. We. We were essentially a drug cult,

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

although

[Robert Downey Jr.]

I still had a work ethic. And I was doing the Kiwani Solo Festival and singing madrigals. And there was things about our bananas life that were as normal as you could imagine. Being an east coast guy, you know, there was something like Christmas. You know, we had communities that were friends. I went to school often as not. And there were all of the trappings of just being a kid kind of growing up in the 60s, 70s.

[David Duchovny]

See, I grew up same time, same place as you. My father's a writer, but he had nine to five jobs, so he wasn't quite as revolutionary as your dad. And that's one of the things my parents were much more afraid of falling through any kind of economic cracks. So for me it was like, get an education, get a job, know, make enough money to survive other. The gutter was always a possibility because my mother grew up in small town in Scotland. You know, what did you get for Christmas, mom, as a kid? An orange, you know, that kind of a thing. So, like, it was. She had tumors in her feet because they couldn't afford shoes that were big enough, so she had to wear. You know, it was a.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Sure.

[David Duchovny]

It was a lot of stuff, like a lot of. A lot of Dickensian stuff. I was terrified of the kind of freedom that I see you exhibiting at a young age, or even as a young actor, just so fearlessly free and vulnerable. And so I was like, oh, I want. How did he get that? But, you know, I realize now, you know, you were raised in it and you didn't get the other part. You didn't get the, the backstop or the structure part, you know.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah, but, you know, you seek what's missing pretty quickly. And this is not untypical. You know, there's the crazy eccentric family and then there's one of the kids. Honestly, growing up, it was my sister. She was like, they're bananas. I'm going to private school. Send me to boarding school. I want to go to Woodstock, Vermont, and I'm going to just get a real education, which she did. And I wasn't smart enough to have the scholastic chops that my sister did. And I really liked hanging out with all the grownups, but I also knew that eventually I wasn't just going to be, you know, little Bobby, Bobby Junior. And that at a certain point, it did not seem like my folks had much of a plan for me. And then all of a sudden, it was already just happening when they broke up.

[David Duchovny]

What age were you?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

I was 12.

[David Duchovny]

We were exactly the same as, okay,

[Robert Downey Jr.]

12, upstate New York, in Woodstock. I saw it, heard it all happen. The skirt and the suitcase, the affair, the this and that. And I was like, oh my God, it's over. And. And I also knew that I was going to be saddled with taking my mom's side and hanging back in New York with her, and where she immediately embarked on a who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf relationship with this British guy named Jonas, who I adore. And, and that was the early days. But all of a sudden I was like, I'm in New York, I'm just trying to get work. I'm working at a shoe store. I'm working.

[David Duchovny]

So you're not really going to school at 12?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

No. Well, 12, 13, 14 were in New York. And then after a while, I couldn't hack it and I went out to California. I capitulated. And with some guilt, I actually started having a bit of a real life, actually going to school, actually being in theater arts. I, I thank God for Mr. Jellison, my theater arts teacher. Thank God for having a teacher's assistant credit, thank God that I didn't ever really finish high school, but I got so much out of it and really learned and grew. And I was singing at the Santa Monica Place mall, wearing a mohair suit, singing madrigals during Christmas. And there was something like normalcy, but again, you know, the, the, the, the failure to ever be able to sustain something like normaly in a dysfunctional family is. That's, that's the, that's the most expectable outcome. Every three to five years, it's all gonna go to.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

But by then I kind of knew I had to go back to New York and I had to start trying to do theater and make a living. And I was doing. I was in Rochester doing regional theater, which is so weird too, speaking of these massive circles and cycles, because I was just at Lincoln center doing a play for the first time, let alone a Broadway play for the first time in 40 years, just, you know, six months ago. And, and sometimes these things that were either a way out of failure or trying to not capitulate to what seemed like this guaranteed entropy was like, I've got to. I gotta get off this train. I gotta figure out a way. And as you know, it's super lonely and isolating when you're really kind of a stunted growth kid who maybe has some skills or some charm and,

[David Duchovny]

well, to kind of base a life on enthusiasm, as I see it in you, or charm or whatever you want to call it, it's sand through your fingers. Right. And when I got into acting, it was really from the opposite point of view, which was I'm stunted emotionally. You know, I've been structured to fucking death. You know, I. I don't know. There was a sense of play in me that just wasn't being attended to, you know, so you're coming at it kind of the opposite point of view, because actually, when you're playing, that is your. That's where your dad is involved. That's where you get your structure. You said in the movie that you learned everything about acting from your mom as well. And I saw from the clips that I see, you know, she's very funny and very alive, and your dad is very kind of dry. You know, you're more. You present more like your mom, even. She's like the invisible heart of that movie.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Thank you for saying that. Yeah, it's. It's all Elsie Ann Ford. Elsie Downey mom. Yeah, for sure. And the other thing was her devotion to him and her unwavering, blind commitment to whatever direction he was taking the circus in. And it's funny, too, just to double back. It's almost like I had to run away from home and join a new circus circus to find stability. And that was regional theater, and that was off off Broadway and off Broadway, and then eventually, and thankfully, that was. Here's a name from the past, great actor Craig Sheffer.

[David Duchovny]

Sure. Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Turns down a role in this film starring James Spader called Tough Turf. Tough Turf because he got a better offer to go do a film with Emilio Estevez called that Was Then, this Is now, which was more of like a prestige project. This was like a new world, kind of like weirdo rehash of like a modern Romeo and Juliet. And thank God I had put myself, or I'd been put on tape to be whatever Milo is offbeat buddy. And I'd forgotten about it. And I was down on my last shekel. I was in New York. I was probably not going to be able to make my $140, half the. The rent for this. This Hell's Kitchen apartment. And they said, hey, short notice. But you're cast and we need you to fly to LA tomorrow. And I was like, I can't, I can't, I don't. I can't afford to fly to la. They go, no, no, no, no, no. They're sending you a first class ticket on American. I was like, what? And then I never looked at back.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey, everyone, it's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

You might know us as two of the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. We're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And this is what's the Plan? Your weekly guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back. This is not canned talking points. It's a real live discussion space for the pro democracy movement. We wrestle with strategy together, we take your top voted questions in real time, and we talk about the most impactful actions we can take. Right now.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Democracy is a participatory sport. The fascists win when we sit on the sidelines. What's the Plan Is about how we get into the game.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What's the plan? Available Friday, January 23rd, wherever you get

[Robert Downey Jr.]

your podcasts, subscribe, recruit, discuss, organize, and win. That's the plan.

[David Duchovny]

This is what you said. You say, we're here, we do some stuff and then we die. And again, this is, this is true. And, and this is. It's. It's simple, but it's deep. How do we, how do we, how do we get in touch with that every day, though? Because there's a lot of noise.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

On a daily basis coming to us, and we have to somehow touch the truth to live. Right.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Well, I'm looking over your shoulder at, at Bobby and Jack there, the Kennedy brothers, you know, they came, they did some stuff, and boy, did they leave with an exclamation point. And that's the 60s. And then in the 70s, I was trying to figure out, do I even know how to become a teenager, let alone shape a life? And then in the 80s, as we both know, there was this really weird kind of Reagan era thing where the ultimate and kind of sustainable for a while front kind of went up.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Which is this influx of culture led by. What do the kids think? The 80s was the time of the movies about youth being forefront on. Even the student. The studios were like, well, we better do this. It's what's happening. And so what a blessing that was. And then, you know, I probably need to check in with my shrink before we get into the 90s too much. But you know, Jesus. Age. Crimini. It's just the turns come so, you know, you're here, and if you're lucky, not only do you do stuff, but you get bites at the apple and swings at the ball and iterations and you start locking into, like, you know, I. I consider it significant that we have gotten to know each other again over this last little while because there's some people, there's not a lot of people who can talk about the context of 30, 40, 50 years of shared experience.

[David Duchovny]

Right. When you look back at that time, obviously the philosophy of AA or whatever that is, is important. It's important to me as well. I mean, because. Well, first of all, anonymity seems an impossibility anymore.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah. But you can act as if.

[David Duchovny]

Act as if. Anonymous.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah, you can act as if. And what's really important is the anonym of others.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

It's okay for me to say what I am. It's not okay for me to say anything about anyone else. And generally speaking, the truth be told is, you know, I'm. It's hilarious.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

I'm one of, like, three people who's the first call for any Hollywood crisis having to do with drugs and alcohol or, you know, horrific misbehavior, which is both a. An honor and a. It's kind of funny because I did not think I would ever be part of any crisis team. On the right side of history, you take the call. One must, if for no other reason, that it's always interesting to have the. There but for the grace of God. And also the, you know what the. Here we do stuff and we die. Sometimes we're. Here, we die, and then we do stuff. And those deaths are critical. And as long as they're not entirely physical, they can wind up being what makes us,

[David Duchovny]

for me, what is rigorous in the AA stuff. And what I got out of it, what I continue to get out of

[Robert Downey Jr.]

it

[David Duchovny]

is the honesty is the responsibility. And the honesty, because I was never honest before that. I was always kind of withholding something or afraid to be fully myself. The idea being if I was fully myself, then I wouldn't be lovable or acceptable or something. And I also found, interestingly, before I was exposed to that, I was very kind of heady or psychological. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna figure this out. You know, I'm gonna figure me out. I'm gonna tell my story. I'm gonna figure out my Oedipal story, whatever it was, make my movie, and then I'LL be okay, you know. And then I began to think that understanding is kind of the booby prize and that right action actually was going to lead to right thinking. And to me that was so topsy turvy.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

It's nuts, isn't it?

[David Duchovny]

Nobody ever said that to me. Nobody ever said that to me. Everybody tried to. You know, you go to ethics, you go to Bible class, you know, you learn what it is to be a good person. But you don't learn how to be a good person.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

No. And you know, nobody wants to do the next right thing every time.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

And again we come from hopefully the last vestige of a written, which I'm called. It's a, it's a get out of jail free card for having a moral psychology. I mean actually it's back in a big way, but it's more out there in the writ large way. I'm talking about from, from our generation. Not to speak for our generation, no, but you know, it was the live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse came out of that mid century kind of Jimmy Dean thing. We were seeing it happen so we kind of made light of it and act like, hey, maybe that's the way. Because it seemed like the way a lot of us were comporting ourselves. That was definitely on the table. And now it really does seem like stick around, like slow down, do the next right thing. There's a natural stoicism that descends upon every ounce of wisdom I have ever accumulated, whether I've been able to keep it all or not. But I've kept my nose clean and I know how to suit up and show up. And I do love, I do love just being able to be on what seems like a leveled playing field because I'm not kicking myself in the nuts, you know, and, and, and I like it and I like like minded people and I am crazy for community.

[David Duchovny]

The community you feel like that is your search, that is your family. As, as that it's.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah, it's my recovery world. It's definitely my family created family. But it's also this odd thing of just like, you know, you wind up kind of like taking on a responsibility to put the best version of yourself.

[David Duchovny]

Were you afraid that your enthusiasm was somehow part and parcel air quotes that, that it had with drug taking or drinking, that it was accessed that way?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

No, because I never found, I never found that I was like doing great anything when I was, you know, in my disease. I always felt a little bit ashamed because you know, everyone has a, the, you know, the body keeps the score. And, you know, and history was there. And I was also seeing, you know, if you look at this in the context of all the folks we lost in the 80s and 90s, you know, in cross culturally, it was kind of like, this is hugely irresponsible to not address this. And I had also been one of those people who was like, you know, trying to get sober forever. But like you said, I strangely was missing that critical component of rigorous honesty. And I also wasn't aware that I was missing that critical component. Didn't mean I was full of shit or pathological. It just meant that so many things were repressed and unconscious. And even back then, going back to, like when we first met, I remember, like one of the first turns was like prepping to play chaplain and realizing this is any and everything I ever could have asked for. I am now battling my own proclivities to self medicate. And also completely obsessed with making Dad, I mean, Sir Richard Attenborough proud of me being able to portray this guy, which, by the way, he, by the time he had cast me, all the endorsement I ever could have wanted from this incredible iconic writer, director, you know, philanthropist guy was already there. But then, as we know, you know, the best part of any job is the casting announcement. You're like, God, that looks good for us. And then you got to go do it.

[David Duchovny]

How long did you have to prepare?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Well, they kept pulling the financing, so it extended and extended. So every time I think we've got to like Robert. And if you could just hold fast, I think we can get the other 11 million from. Is it Carolco? Who are the boys who did Total Recall or, you know, whatever? Mario Casar, God bless him. And so I kept having more time to prep, and I went quite obsessive with it. The next time I got that obsessive was when I had the Iron man screen test. But again, it's that thing of find a new obsession, find a new area to make new mistakes in that are falling forward.

[David Duchovny]

You got obsessed about the Iron man screen test in the same way.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

You would not believe it.

[David Duchovny]

I would not believe it.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Well, I mean, at that point, thank God Disney had approved me playing a role in a Disney film. Thank God for Tim Allen, too, called Shaggy Dog. And that meant that Disney said I was hireable. And if not for that piece, there's no way that Favreau and Feige ever could have made a case to give me what was going to be $150 million swing at launching a cinematic universe. Which sounded like kind of not really feasible anyway. And knowing that I was going to screen test and knowing that the odds might be stacked against me unless, you know. But I refuse to capitulate. Even when John said I don't think it's going to happen, I was like, that's all right, dude. I refuse to disbelieve. And so let me know if and when it comes back around. But like you said, I'm just going to train. I've been clean long enough that I now just needed a reason to live. Aside from my, my firstborn and my ex and Susan and you know, all that stuff. Obsessed.

[David Duchovny]

How long, how long was that process?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

It was months. But you know when you're running things and you're running it and then you're off book and then you go fuck it, I'm running it again. And then you think about it and then you make more notes and then I was had like a little gehunzit of like things and like this Korean energy healer I'd been to and I just started building up this almost prayer wheel of why not me?

[David Duchovny]

How?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Which honestly it flew in the face of every failure I'd ever witnessed, participated in or brought upon myself.

[David Duchovny]

How so?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Because it was a single mindedness of when I think about this, I only think about there is no way that I don't deserve to have this opportunity. Which always felt almost a little like speaking spells in Latin and like bad people shouldn't be able to do that, you know what I mean? Or only bad people do that. And then it was just this growing sense of I am ready, I am prepared, I am well, I am sound of mind and body. And I see a way to not just me, me, me, I get mine. Look at everybody. I'm on a different, I'm on a different, you know, level but more that I would get to see what it's like to operate at this level and try to be a good, a good host of this experience throughout. Which is a lot harder, you know, again getting the job. It's funny too. I'd started really getting serious about martial arts a few years beforehand and I was on the mat with my sifu in the middle of a lesson when he let me bow off the mat and take a break to take the call to have Brian Lord tell me that I got it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Only 18 states require sex ed to be medically accurate and relationship classes. Let's fix that. I'm Shan, an ASEC certified sex educator with a master's in psych and on My podcast, Lovers by Shan. We make learning about love as mind blowing as making it. Celebrities and fascinating people share an intimate story. Then we uncover the lesson for all of us. Watch Lovers by Shan from Lemonada Media on YouTube or listen wherever you like. Your podcast.

[David Duchovny]

When you spoke or when you said in the. In the. In senior, that when you're acting, you're with your father, that's. It made me realize that I. I get that through writing. My father was a writer.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

I did, of course.

[David Duchovny]

And I realized that I'm speaking to my ancestors, you know, or that I'm. I'm joining the conversation. And it made me think of you, you know, joining the conversation when you. When you're too young to know exactly what the fuck you're really joining and then to go back to him at whatever age you were a few years ago. Yeah. And to start that conversation again and to start it as a friendly competition in a way, like two guys are going to make different movies. There's so much in that and so much in that film that is. Is so personal. It's so personal that it. It kind of. It goes by, you know, because people are not accustomed to seeing that kind of unvarnished approach.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Under the guise of art. Because you don't, you know, you're still charming and, you know, there's not a lot of. There's not a lot of just like you breaking down. It's not like that. But there is so much just in the setup. That's what got me. Right. And when you say at the very end, and forgive me for bringing up a difficult moment.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

No, please.

[David Duchovny]

But you say to your dad, I mean, I can't even. Like, you say closer, get closer, get closer, and then closer. You're talking about the camera. Yeah. But you're not talking about. To me, it was like, oh, my God. He's managed to metaphorically put together the two poles of his life, of a camera moving closer and him moving closer to his father at the same time. Wonder if he's aware of it in the moment or if you were ever aware of looking. But I certainly was aware in the moment.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

I was just daunted by the fact that that's where I was at in my trajectory with him. And it's so easy for us. Right. You're a prolific writer. You write a bunch of great books. You know, you look back on it and they go, well, how did you do that? And when you did this, and you're going to like, oh, I was. And it's all these it's the whole support staff, seen and unseen, living and deceased, and perhaps even as yet unborn. It was my missus saying, you've got to finish this up. Don't cheese out. You have to face this. And also, you can't make this documentary seem like a senior movie, Chris Smith. And I will not fucking allow it. Because you need to make a clear narrative. That's how you take the mantle just in personal responsibility, is you tell this in acts. And the only way he wants to deal with his past, the artifacts of his own emotional truth, is by couching them and talking about the film he was doing at that time. And you don't need to be that. But there's also something perfect about your dad's refusal to capitulate to any kind of dialogue besides that, until the very end, when I think. And I actually found it very brave of him, you know, he did not die like a coward.

[David Duchovny]

No. Charlie Parkinson. Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

He did not go gently into that good night. He went. I think he was spared that cruel fate of having to have the last image of someone who's been such an imprint on in so many people now, too. I mean, gosh, you know, there's some people who I will still only ever be seniors, kid. Paul Thomas Anderson.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

And. And. And even our recently deceased icon, Norman Lear. You know, I was only ever Bobby to him because he had such an attachment, a fascination and appreciation for my dad that he just saw me grow up under that, and then I just wound up in the industry and did pretty well for myself. Yeah, I think he appreciated the fact that I'd kind of, you know, figured out how to stop the bleeding on the. The family propensity for. For drug dependency. But honestly, you know, he was impervious to that. He was just more like, there's artists and there's everybody else for. For Norman, you know. But honestly, I'm so glad that this is where you wanted to. To hang for a bit, because it's been a couple years. And the great thing about Netflix is you are the belle of the ball and everybody gets a chance to see it. And the great thing about Netflix is then it winds up like you're in some fucking drunk dude battle bag and there's no way to find you again, and you just maybe never even know it was ever done.

[David Duchovny]

Well, you did give it a title that's hard to. The algorithm doesn't like. Right. Because I was like, senior or senior Sr. It's sr.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yes. Quote, capital S, lowercase R, period.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I just went through this with Bucky Dent.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

They made me call it Reverse the Curse. Nobody found it. Anyway, so. So you can have curse in the title, but you can't have a curse in the title. So Bucky Dent. No, but reverse the curse. Okay, but what I want to say to you about your. You in that film is you're so gentle with your dad. And I know there's got to be a. There's ambivalence. I mean, the movie is a. Is. You know, it's. It's. It's in the ambivalence of how I was raised in this chaos, you know, and here's my dad, who gave me the gift of that chaos, that I wouldn't. Because you are a guy. You're a magical being, Robert. You are. Don't look at me that way. Let me tell you the straight truth. You play with that chaos. You have it in you. And you have somehow been able to not only master it in certain performances, but also make a life and a life that is solid. But your dad kind of brought that to you, you know, and to. To honor that in him and to withhold the kind of. But you didn't give me the other stuff. Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

You know, what he did do was he had a moment, not like mine, where he said done. And so for the last.

[David Duchovny]

Without aaa, he just said, yeah, maybe.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Definitely not the way I did it, but a way that was like a white lightning moment. Those things that you hear about in the literature, but they very seldom occur. And then he really did a karma cleanup tour. I mean, he was on the.

[David Duchovny]

Just mean drugs. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, absolutely revolutionary, right?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Completely.

[David Duchovny]

You have that spirit.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Well, he was also just a absolute accessible still him. But he settled and was accessible and was consistent and was communicative and caring

[David Duchovny]

and

[Robert Downey Jr.]

just very strangely dependable. Which almost made it even worse because you go, wait a minute, wait.

[David Duchovny]

Nobody believes.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Like, Robert, what are you talking about? Your dad's solid as hell.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

And it's weird, too, because it's these. It's the playing with extremes. Like, yes, I can thrive in chaos to this day, but I love the organized caboose. I love order. I love design. I love. There's nothing more important to me than domestic bliss because it's the only environment that I can try to replicate wherever I go, whether I'm always getting to be with the family or not.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I see. In your work, I see, you know, the preparation creates the order, or at least the illusion of order or the hope for order. And you. You Work your ass off. You prepare your ass off. You. You've got a strong work ethic and a very kind of good eye towards what needs to be done. But I think once you. I've not worked with you a lot, but I know that when I'm looking at you in a scene that all that stuff, you just let it wash over you, and you don't force it in the scene. And then you're, like, opening the door and saying, okay, Dionysus or Pan or whoever, come on in. Let's see what you want to do. And that's.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

I hope so.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. I mean, that's.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

At best.

[David Duchovny]

And.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

But look, we all have.

[David Duchovny]

You can't get it every day. No, we can get every day.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

No, we all have our tolerances, too. Like, there's only so many. Seeing that everybody only has the tolerance to manage so many things at once. And for me, when the physical demands are too much, I will opt out of the whole thing of needing to be off book, and I will use whatever tricks I need to use to not be tripping on that.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

When I know that the circumstance demands additional activity on top of being more off book than hopefully anyone around me, because I have to carry a certain section of it. So you got to leave by example, this and that. So I'm also, you know, And. And I've seen you operate this way, too. You just got to be flexible, and you need different modes, and you need to, you know, different car, different manual, different toolkit.

[David Duchovny]

Can you. Can you read this for me?

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yes. There's a. There's a line missing.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Three miles west of Skag Mountain in the Valley of Pain. An evil devil monster. His name is Bingo. Gas station, Motel Cheeseburger with a side of aircraft noise. And you'll be Gary, Indiana. And he loves to hurt people. The last time I saw Bingo. Gas station Motel cheeseburger with a side of aircraft noise. And you'll be Gary, Indiana. He told me what he wants to do. He wants to come down here and kill each and every one of you. But I said to him, bingo, wait a minute. And the reason I said that is because I believe in you people. I believe you can do the job, believe you can help each other, believe you can make the world a better place to live in. That's it. I find that passage to be inspired.

[David Duchovny]

I agree. It's the end of your movie. Yeah, it's. It's the last clip. And I was like, me. That is. That's a creed. And that's something your dad wrote. And it really. It really moved me. I didn't know. I haven't seen the film. And I just do.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Check out Greaser's Palace. If you see one senior film, to me, it's the one that's the most senior. The most about our family is believe it or not.

[David Duchovny]

And you play a kid who is

[Robert Downey Jr.]

killed by neck slit by God and then is resurrected and his mother finds him, and his.

[David Duchovny]

Couldn't be much more autobiographical than that.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah, I know. And this was 72. Speaking of which, almost 50 years later. 50 years later, almost to the month, I'm back in Santa Fe where we were living when he shot Grease's Palace. And there's a place called the Dragonfly Club, where I remember a drug deal went bad between some of the Greaser's palace crew members and Dennis Hopper's Hollywood motorcycle gang, and it, like, had to be squashed. And I was like, this is weird. And I was there 50 years later, staying about 40 steps away from this place, doing Oppenheimer.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

And I was like, I can't believe I'm back here. I can't believe that 50 years ago I was here as a kid listening to these Sesame street soundtracks on. On. On vinyl and participating in this weird kind of spiritual, oddball comedy my dad was directing.

[David Duchovny]

And you. Will you direct again after Senior.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

I mean, that was really Chris Smith and Kevin Ford, and it was my invitation to start taking the lead.

[David Duchovny]

But still, you're creating the world. That's what a director is doing. Yes.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

I am both mortified to worst nightmare, realize that I have no business doing it, and I'm gonna have to fire myself and also feel like I am still in an act of denial of any and everything that would offer me freedom and feeling like I could complete my education.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

As a human by doing that. But I feel like I've had enough experiences, really, honestly, just lately in severe discipline, like doing a Broadway show, doing Tech week, doing previews and rehearsing during the day, I was like, all right, could I do this, like, for something this difficult? For months and months and months or maybe even two years with little breaks?

[David Duchovny]

Probably, yeah. Would I.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Would I crack up? I don't know. I think I have the cojones to do it. And, dude, you're someone. I mean, you know, the nice thing I know is if and when I write and direct, I know we're. I know my go to players, I know my snipers. I know my.

[David Duchovny]

So write it right as well.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Sure.

[David Duchovny]

Right. And direct.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Sure. You heard it here.

[David Duchovny]

First. I hope so.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Thanks, dude.

[David Duchovny]

Thank you. That's.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Speaking of things to fail at, that's the next one on the chopping block.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I think. I mean, you talk about community, and that's. That's what a director is doing, is like, you're building a community. It's a temporary one, you know, but that's where your heart is, you know, like you are. You are a soloist who longs to play in the orchestra or build the orchestra, you know, So I think. I think it's calling to you. I also think, you know, your sense of failure at this point, it's cushioned. You've done okay. You know, it's. You're Michael Jordan, you know, going to play a little baseball. Right. And so. But I think it's going to work out better. But you know what I mean? It's like you're still going to be.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Yeah. I mean, look, again, it goes back to senior, and it's that thing of, if the universe is saying anything to me, it's that you shouldn't be afraid to go fully into the family business. And just because I revered him so much, and I don't know where these inspirations came. Came from, because I feel like he

[David Duchovny]

was touched with this storytelling, connected to some kind of creative deity.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

He really was.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

And I don't know if I'm a deity day player or if I really have that juice, but I do know that, like you said, if I just keep it simple and say, I want to create community, I want to tell a story, and I want to. I want to provide an experience, even if it's a good hard time. Yeah, I think it'd be great. Thank you, Robert D. You kidding me? Thanks to Kovney.

[David Duchovny]

Some thoughts about ralph downey jr. I think what's so admirable about his journey is how he's really threaded the needle between humility and humiliation. You know, he could have felt humiliated. He could have felt defeated by certain failures in his life, but he took it as a lesson in humility, not humiliation. And I think that's a lot of what I've been seeking out in this podcast, Fail Better. It's not about not failing. Failing better is not not failing. It's not being humiliated, and yet it's not being delusional. Like, I didn't fail. It's like, I did fail, but I'm still worthwhile. I may feel a little humiliated, but that's just the growing of humility. Maybe a little humiliation is the seed of humility and humility is a good. It's a great good. It's a master virtue, I think, along with gratitude and patience. I'm working on it. I'm working on it, God damn it all three. But I think Robert has found a sweet spot that works for him, and he wears it easily. He wears it gently. So I think it's easy to forget how hard won it must have been. And I salute him for that. Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the full version of my post interview thoughts that you won't hear anywhere else. That's more of my recaps on interviews with guests like Chris Carter and Emily Deschanel. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadepremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonade premium dot com. Don't miss out. Fail Better is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kopinski, Brad Davidson and Jonathan Smith. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitchell Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know when you're just going about your busy day and a voice asks

[David Duchovny]

you something like why do people have crushes?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Or do dogs know their dogs? The Brains on Podcast is here to help. Every episode answers tough questions, funny skits, cool facts, and more. It's a science show for kids of all ages. Whether you grew up with jfk, mtv, tlc, or tmz, brainson is for you.

[Robert Downey Jr.]

Listening may induce uncontrollable laughter and turn backseat squabbles into harmonious car trips. Find Brains on wherever you get your podcasts.