Failure? Success? Judd Apatow Says Give It 10 Years to Decide

Summary

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Fail Better with David Duchovny — Failure? Success? Judd Apatow Says Give It 10 Years to Decide

Lemonada Media | Aired: October 28, 2025
Guest: Judd Apatow (comedian, writer, director, producer)
Host: David Duchovny

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Episode Overview

This thoughtful and candid episode brings together host David Duchovny and iconic comedy filmmaker Judd Apatow for a deep, funny, and revealing exploration of life’s failures—and how time often redefines their meaning. The pair discuss Apatow’s new book “Comedy Nerd,” the complicated impulse behind hoarding creative memories, the fluctuating nature of creative motivation, and how both failure and success are slippery, shape-shifting concepts. They also delve into what constitutes a creative life, the perils and blessings of public criticism, and the alchemy of making comedy that lasts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Judd Apatow’s “Hoarding” of Creative Memories

• [02:14-04:09] Judd discusses his scrapbook-style memoir, “Comedy Nerd”—a culmination of decades spent saving memorabilia, photographs, and autographs, stretching back to his childhood.
  • “I always say, it’s not hoarding if your shit’s awesome. It’s just having awesome shit.” — Judd Apatow [03:05]
  • Duchovny reflects on the ballast and meaning this nostalgia might give: “It feels like you’re trying to place yourself… it’s very moving to think of you that way.” [04:39]

2. Creativity: Motivation from Pathology or Inspiration?

• [06:00-08:15] Both muse on whether ambitious output springs from insecurity or vibrant creativity.
  • Apatow admits, “There’s always a pure motivation and… a weird, insecure motivation to just keep working… the reason that you work hard is you have just enough doubt to make you continue.” — Judd Apatow [07:56]
  • Duchovny wonders if one can tell the true reason for creative drive, or if that clarity only comes later.

3. Comedy as Self-Exploration and Therapy

• [08:33-11:29] Inspired by Gary Shandling, Apatow learned to mine his own neuroses and pain for stories, evolving beyond writing jokes for others.
  • “You write the movie to figure out why you’re writing the movie.” — Judd Apatow [08:44]
  • Stories on collaborating with Paul Feig for "Freaks and Geeks"—mining embarrassing real-life experiences for comedic material.

4. Evolution of Creative Process

• [12:00-13:27] Apatow opens up about his early (abortive) acting ambitions and the humiliations that steered him towards writing and producing. Hilariously describes a disastrous commercial audition involving duct tape:
  • “He taped my hand to my leg so that I wouldn’t point… I never auditioned again.” — Judd Apatow [13:11]

5. Dealing with Age, Change, and Staying Funny

• [20:04-23:05] They comically ruminate on the fear of losing touch with contemporary humor.
  • “The thing about not being funny is when you become unfunny, you don’t know it really. That… is a really scary thought.” — Judd Apatow [20:58]
  • Reflection on working with collaborators of different ages to keep creativity fresh.

6. Defining and Measuring Success and Failure

• [28:41-32:14] The meaning of success is (always) elusive and sometimes only becomes clear with the passage of years.
  • “You really don’t know if what you’ve done is good for about 10 years after.” — Warren Beatty (as quoted by Apatow) [29:00]
  • Many works that were panned on release (“The Cable Guy,” “Walk Hard,” “Zoolander”) are now beloved.

7. Navigating Criticism, Reviews, and Public Reaction

• [31:25-36:04] The sting of negative reviews vs. learning from them; the shifting landscape of criticism in the internet age.
  • “Every once in a while, someone writes something in a review that… just finds the thing that hurts you the most.” — Judd Apatow [32:17]
  • Duchovny recounts being called “the tofu of actors”—a label that lingers.

8. Failure, Recovery, and Resilience in Showbiz

• [42:35-44:41] Both agree that movies are hard whether they succeed or fail, and the key is not giving up after a bad reception—Apatow focuses on “grinding” and reworking a project stubbornly until he’s satisfied.
  • “My worst fear is… I’ll just see one of my movies and be really ashamed that anyone’s watching it.” — Judd Apatow [43:26]

9. Documentary Filmmaking: Finding the Human Truth

• [47:50-53:18] Apatow describes the intent behind his documentaries about Mel Brooks and Garry Shandling—going beyond funny anecdotes to deeper emotional honesty.
  • “I approached it like I’m basically a copycat of Mel Brooks… now, as me being older and him being older, to go, oh, tell me about your ride. What was it like?” — Judd Apatow [49:47]
  • Duchovny and Apatow discuss the emotional resonance of Shandling’s life and the impact of childhood loss on lifelong creativity.

10. Meaning, Sincerity, and the Search for Connection

• [54:04-55:11] Duchovny reads a stirring passage from the end of Apatow’s book:
  • “Life is so wonderful, but also so mysterious, dark, and strange. We all need a language to try to understand and get through it. This is mine.” — David Duchovny, reading Judd Apatow [54:18]
  • Apatow recounts a recent ayahuasca vision about community and brotherhood, ending on a note of irreverent sincerity.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “You don’t really know what that thing is you’re trying to make until you make it.” — David Duchovny [08:15]
• “We get to create and have fun with so many amazing people... I hope that continues going forward, at least in a slightly less neurotic way.” — Judd Apatow [24:30]
• “Each thing you do is such an experiment that the last one working has absolutely nothing to do in helping you make this one work.” — Judd Apatow [26:33]
• On criticism:
  • “Do you ever remember any of the good ones?” — Duchovny [33:54]
  • “I don’t believe them anyway.” — Apatow [33:55]
• “Comedy, I think.” — Judd Apatow (on which language helps get through life: comedy or filmmaking?) [54:18]
• “It’s as simple as that. I’m not converting, but I did feel the need to buy the New Testament.” — Judd Apatow, on a psychedelic trip epiphany [54:43]

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Timestamps of Important Segments

| Timestamp (MM:SS) | Topic/Segment | |-------------------|--------------| | 02:14 - 04:09 | Judd’s hoarding and creative nostalgia | | 06:00 - 08:15 | The line between creative inspiration and neurosis | | 08:33 - 11:29 | Comedy as personal therapy; mining trauma for stories | | 12:00 - 13:27 | Early acting humiliation — the Jack in the Box audition | | 20:04 - 23:05 | Fear of losing comedic “touch” with age | | 28:41 - 32:14 | Defining success: the 10-year rule | | 31:25 - 36:04 | Surviving criticism and negative reviews | | 42:35 - 44:41 | On never giving up after a flop; the editing grind | | 47:50 - 53:18 | Making meaningful documentaries; Mel Brooks & Garry Shandling | | 54:04 - 55:11 | Final reflections: the search for meaning and community |

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Tone and Style

Conversational, self-deprecating, honest, and laced with deadpan wit. Duchovny’s curiosity and openness pair well with Apatow’s vulnerability and comedic awareness, resulting in a discussion that is both reflective and playfully irreverent.

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This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in how failure seeds creative growth, why public reception is so unpredictable, and how even the most successful artists never quite shake their doubts.
Key takeaway: Time often proves what is truly meaningful; failure is not the end, but another step in the (sometimes hilarious) search for meaning and connection.

Transcript

[A]

It's morning in New York. Hey, everybody, I'm Andy Patinkin. And I'm Kathryn Grody. And we have a new podcast. It's called don't listen to us. Many of you have asked for our advice. Tell me what is wrong with you people.

[B]

Don't listen to us. Our take it or leave it advice show is out every Wednesday, premiering October 15th. A Lemonada Media original Lemonada.

[A]

Hey, just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of Fail Better ad free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, the Sarah Silverman podcast, and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show in Apple Podcasts. Make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Judd Apatow is a director, writer and producer whose style and humor came to shape an entire generation of comedy films and TV. Judd's new book, Comedy Nerd, releases Oct. 28. We chat about humor, honesty, and, of course, a whole lot of failure. Here's our conversation. Judd, thanks for talking to me.

[B]

Happy to.

[A]

Although you once told me you're gonna regret this. You once said, I say yes to every podcast.

[B]

Even that rule I had to change because I didn't realize how many would come at you. And you don't even have to be a good guest. Everyone just needs guests desperately.

[A]

It is a bit of a game. I wanted to read something from the new book.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, great. What's it called?

[B]

It's called Comedy Nerd, which is a scrapbook autobiography. So photos and memorabilia with little essays and it's.

[A]

Well, one of the things I found interesting, I didn't know about you was you claimed to be a hoarder. You know that you.

[B]

I do have some hoarding tendencies.

[A]

Yeah. And that this book, because of all these pictures that you're using in the book, is kind of. You're exfoliating. You're trying to exfoliate your soul here.

[B]

Well, I had about half a million photos.

[A]

Half a million photos that you had.

[B]

Taken or that was just inputted at some point. And I have just saved everything since I was a kid. I have a photo in the book of my closet when I was a kid where I have all my little autographs and memorabilia and tons of pictures of the who on the wall. And then I always say, it's not hoarding if your shit's awesome. It's just having awesome shit.

[A]

Well, where do you think it comes from?

[B]

I don't know, because it started really young of treasuring things.

[A]

It's not just a baseball card collection.

[B]

Well, in the beginning, it was like, oh, I got the autograph, Mets ball. I had a Dave Kingman signed bat and then got some autographs. I used to write every celebrity in the world to just see who would send me something.

[A]

You did.

[B]

And I would just. Hours will load in my room in fourth, fifth grade, just writing Merv Griffin and Mike Douglas letters. And I remember I got Paul Lynn's autograph. And then I just thought, I'm gonna send him another letter, see if he does it again. And then suddenly I had, like, five Paul autographs, and people, they'd auto pen you, or every once in a while, you get a real one. I had a really good Andy Kaufman autograph photo. And on the back, he wrote a letter, which was so weird because he signed the front. On the back, he wrote, dear Judd, thank you so much for writing. Here's an autographed photo for you. Like, it was completely unnecessary.

[A]

It must have been early. Early in his career. Yeah.

[B]

Taxi days.

[A]

Yeah. Because I remember at the beginning of the X Files, they used to send me fan letters, and I would sit on the weekends and I would answer, because there weren't that many. You know, there were 25 or 100. And I'd sit there and I'd actually write them back. But what I think of when somebody is not hoarding but, like, keeping those kinds of things. There's a great bit in a book, I think a James Joyce book, where he talks about. He says, stephen Dedalus such and such. Street, such and such city, the earth, the universe. It feels like you're trying to place yourself. It feels like you're trying to weigh yourself down with some kind of ballast. That's what I think. And as a kid, it's very moving to think of you that way.

[B]

Way. Well, you can't die if you still have magazines to read.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

I still have a 1992 Bono interview in Rolling Stone I can get to. So I don't think God will take me before then.

[A]

I'm sorry I'm keeping you from that. But, yeah, it's moving to me. And that's why I found the book to be emotional in some way. And I wanted to read this bit.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's probably the very end. It's farewell. I've worked on this book for a few years. It's emotional getting to the end of this process. I've always been a hoarder. That's where I got it from. And I have hoped that completing this project will allow me to finally throw out a hundred boxes of stuff that I always thought essential in case I might do something like this one day. What do I think when I look through the book first? I think, man, that is a lot of stuff. What the hell is wrong with you? How insecure and needy and broken are you that the only way to deal with. With it was to create this mountain of work? So it's work in a way too. So you knew at some point you're going to have to get through it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was it a healthy expression of your creativity or as Gary used to say, shanling, the essence of your soul? So is it evidence of a pathology or is it evidence of a creativity? I think is what you're asking.

[B]

And I'm also talking about even just the projects, not just the book project, but all the projects. Is it just an expression of the deep hole you're trying to fill? How much work do you have to do to feel better about yourself? And how much of it is pure expression and creativity and light and how much of it is from a trauma response of some sort?

[A]

Well, I mean, walking through the office, it's my first time here. I was struck by the amount of work that you've done, you know, and I wonder if you. If you ever just take stock of it that way. You've done a lot of. A lot. Not a lot of.

[B]

Yeah, some shit.

[A]

A lot of shit, Judd. But I'm struck by the. The energy that it takes to have done that and the wide ranging kind of interest from documentary to mentoring other people to do their work, producing, and also your own work. So you question it as either coming from a pathology or an insecurity or as coming from some kind of light creativity. And I wonder if you can ever really make that distinction. And can you make that distinction between work. So you go, like later you go, oh, fuck, that was the wrong place that that came from.

[B]

I feel good about the fact that I always do things that I. That I assume will come out well or have the potential to like. I don't really do anything like to sell out for a job or for money. And I'm not even sure why but that's just always been my way that if I'm not really passionate about it, I won't do it. But it is a lot of stuff, and it's almost comically too much stuff. It's comically too much stuff that you've done. Yeah. And there is no way to know about the motivations, because I do think it's always both. There's always a pure motivation and there's always a weird, insecure motivation to just keep working. And you have moments where you feel good about what you do and confident. But for the most part, the reason that you work hard is you have just enough doubt to make you continue to work really hard.

[A]

But isn't it also that you don't really know what that thing is that you're trying to make until you make it?

[B]

Yeah, it's so weird.

[A]

So I just have this itch like, ah, I'm going to do that thing. I'm not exactly sure why. Maybe it's funny. Maybe I like that guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then you find out it's a different cause, a different reason.

[B]

I mean, I remember Jim Carrey used to talk about that he felt like these projects would come into his life because he was needing to think about this thing. And someone else said, you write the movie to figure out why you're writing the movie. And there have been movies that I've made where years after they're done, it occurs to me why I wanted to do it. And a lot of them are almost like letters to myself or letters to other people trying to explain something or work through something. And so at some point I realized, oh, that must be. That must be what's happening. And Gary Shanley was the first person that talked about any of this to you? Yeah, because when I started, I was just writing jokes. I didn't really think anything about story. But Gary talked about mining his own neuroses and his own issues for stories. And I just never heard it. I mean, I knew that. I guess on another level, I'd watched Diner and I knew it was personal and things were fast. Times at Ridgemont High was based on Cameron Crowe going to high school and writing a book about it. But watching Gary do it and go, oh, Gary's conflicted about being famous. And he has this TV show about this person who really wants to be a big star and the most successful host. And this conflict of, is this healthy or not healthy consumes Gary enough to make six years of a TV show.

[A]

About it and five years talking about it afterwards?

[B]

Exactly, yeah. And making DVDs and. And just going deeper into that world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So for me, it took me a while to try to figure out, like, well, how would I do that in my work? That it would become more personal. Because in the beginning, I just wrote for other people, and I would try to think like Gary or I'd try to think like Roseanne. And it took a long time for me to go, okay, but what would I talk about?

[A]

What was that first step? What was that?

[B]

Probably. I mean, in a weird way, it happens in the steps. Like, Heavyweights was like a silly summer camp for overweight boys movie. But it was the beginning of talking about feeling like a weird kid and wanting respect in some way. And then when I worked with Paul Feig on Freaks and Geeks, we all kind of mined all of our childhood traumas and would just put them into different episodes. Watching Paul do it, because Paul was amazing because he remembered every detail of childhood, every terrible thing that ever happened to him. He had total recall of it, and he would tell some story, and it would be so humiliating. And it was always the same. Afterwards, we would say, and how old were you when that happened? Like, 13. And he would always go 18. He was always much older than we thought in the story. And so, like, his courage to write about it, to see that up close. This is right after Larry Sanders was also a big inspiration because he really opened up. And then the staff started opening up about all their problems in high school.

[A]

And the kids, too. The actors in it?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Everybody.

[A]

I guess it's a great feeling about that set. It seems like it was a great set to be on.

[B]

It was. It definitely was. I mean, because Paul was an actor. And so a lot of it was about treating everyone the way people, the way Paul wished people treated him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So he was, you know, a journeyman supporting actor who had a lot of experiences that were fun and not fun. And so I think, like, we made a point of, like, treating everyone great.

[A]

Had you ever been interested in acting?

[B]

I. You know, I never really pursued it. I. I joined, like, the school play, and then my grandfather died in the middle, and I had to go to California to, like, deal with it. So then I didn't do that.

[A]

He died in the middle of the actual play?

[B]

No, in California. He died while, you know, we were, like, rehearsing this play. And then I was going to join the Groundlings.

[A]

You were.

[B]

But I was doing Stand up. And they said, well, you have to be here for three months or four months to take the class. And I had been offered to go on the road at all the improvs around the country. And I thought, well, I've been working for years to get the improv to let me do this. And so I didn't do that. And then at one point, I had a commercial agent.

[A]

You did?

[B]

And so I went out for commercials, and I was such a bad actor that once I was going out for a Jack in the Box commercial, and I'm supposed to do this monologue about this cheeseburger. And I just kept pointing. I'm just kept pointing the whole time. And the guy's like, okay, do it again. Don't point. And then I. Halfway through, I just. I couldn't help but point. And then he took out a big thing of duct tape, and he taped my hand to my leg so that I wouldn't point. And then I never went out on an audition ever again. Like, I laughed at the time, but I think I was, like, fully just humiliated. Like, oh, you're the worst actor in the world.

[A]

That's a horrible experience.

[B]

It was a terrible experience.

[A]

Have you ever duct taped an actor's hand?

[B]

I have as a director. It works for me.

[A]

I'm happy that you never duct taped me. You know, looking around at all your posters, I was like, fuck. You know, we just didn't. We didn't do enough.

[B]

No.

[A]

Honestly, I always. I had always wanted to. And then when we did the Bubble. Because I did TV set where I portrayed you. I don't think people know.

[B]

Yeah. That you portrayed a version.

[A]

It's really a biopic.

[B]

It might be like a little Mike White, a little Jake in there, but there was definitely a lot of Judd.

[A]

It was mostly Judd. But the weird thing was is that you may not remember this, but we did the table read for the TV set, and that night was the premiere of the 40 Year Old Virgin.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So you actually. That was a pivotal day in your life. So I went from basically playing Judd that nobody knows.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To you becoming adjectival. You know, like, almost overnight.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I would. I would have played it differently.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I know you were gonna get well.

[B]

You had the bad back.

[A]

I had the bad back.

[B]

Justin Bateman as a wife.

[A]

I had a beard. I had a bad.

[B]

Yeah, that movie was really good. Should hunt that down. The TV set.

[A]

You spend a third of your life working. Are you spending it well? For so many of us, we're spending that time in jobs that feel more draining than fulfilling. Maybe it's a job you've outgrown or one you've never wanted in the first place, but still you stay. And you tell yourself, I've already put years into this place. What if I make a change and it's even worse? I mean, isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? Let's be honest, those aren't reasons to stay. They're excuses for not moving forward. But you don't have to stay stuck. That's where today's sponsor, Strawberry Me, comes in. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you truly want to be. Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, uncover what's holding you back, and build the kind of confidence that doesn't just dream build big, but takes action. You'll make a plan, you'll follow through, and most importantly, you'll stop feeling like your future is happening to you and start shaping it on your terms. So if you're ready to get unstuck, visit Strawberry Me. Fail better to claim a special offer and get started today. That's Strawberry Me. Fail Better stop settling. Start building the career and life you actually want. The air is getting crisper and the days are getting shorter and I for one, am craving warm, hearty food, which unfortunately always happens right when there starts to be less and less time in the day to prepare it. Home Chef makes it easy, though, with solid recipes that hit the spot. And they always keep prep simple. You get fresh food delivered right to you and the recipes are super easy to follow. In fact, Home Chef is rated number one by users of other meal kits for quality, convenience, value, taste and recipe ease. They have classic recipes but also 30 minute meals and quick microwave options. And it's not one size fits all. Home chef has over 30 meal choices each week that cover different diets and tastes. And with my current taste being filling, warm and nutritious, there is nothing calling my name quite like the velvety cauliflower potato soup. I mean, velvety. You know, you can't get more autumnal than that. Oh, and the side of white cheddar toast, icing on the cake, icing on the soup. I mean, for a limited time, Home Chef is offering my listeners 50% off and free shipping for your first box. Plus free dessert for life. Go to home chef.comfailbetter that's home chef.com failbetter for 50% off your first box and free dessert for life. Homechef.com failbetter must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. I believe that humility is a super important quality. We have so much to learn from others. And that's why I love Masterclass. Through my own research, I've really come to appreciate the creative practice of the writer Joyce Carol Oates. And she just happens to have a fascinating class about short stories. I'm sure that pretty soon I'll be quoting it to anyone who will listen. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. Plans start at just $10 a month and that gives you unlimited access to over 200 classes. They're taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs and more. And every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. That's the kind of learning I like. Low stakes. Learn to eat more ethically, healthfully and sustainably with Michael Pollan or build habits that stick with atomic habits. Author James Clear. These are bite sized lessons with big impact, which means they can fit into even the busiest schedules and they really make a difference. Three out of four surveyed members feel inspired every time they watch Masterclass. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] failbetter that's 15% [e-mail] failbetter masterclass.com failbetter you know, you mentioned Gary and he's a, a big influence in both of our lives, obviously. And there's something about the man that, that is sustaining even to this day, you know, and he was a Buddhist, I guess you'd call him. And I wonder how you both square. You know, I don't associate Buddhism with hilarity, you know, and I wonder if there was ever a fear for you as I've gone down this road with Gary, you, you know, into Buddhism. And I don't know what you're, the extent of your involvement with Buddhism is or meditation or anything like that, but I wonder if there was that sense of, oh, if I get, if I get clear on this, if I start feeling good, am I going to be funny anymore?

[B]

Yeah, am I going to, am I.

[A]

Going to be able to do my shit?

[B]

I never really thought about that because I always feel so far away from that level of calm that it's just so far away that even if I can get like a moment of calm, it's a big deal. But the baseline Buddhism doesn't work, not the way I'm running it. Like I went on my, I have like an app, literally, I'll get every single app for meditation. I'll have the calm app and the 10 Happier app and the Waking up app. I mean, I have so many of them. And I went on one of the apps and it like you could hit a button, it'll tell you like all the times you've used it to meditate. And it was literally like three times in the last six years on this one app. I'm like, yeah, I'm really not walking the walk.

[A]

I've kind of, I've kind of been delinquent recently because I'll, I'll save my meditation for when I'm lying down to go to sleep. Yeah, it's actually my sleep app. It's straight up.

[B]

I know, focused. But yeah, I don't, I do have that fear of not being funny because I think the thing about not being funny is when you become unfunny, you don't know it really. And that to me, like, when you think of like the scariest thoughts you can have, that's like a really scary thought.

[A]

What would cause you to be unfunny? Would culture change or something like that? Do you see yourself as. Do you see funny as being tied to any kind of decade or culture, cultural moment?

[B]

Well, you could look at it as a youthful thing or the perspective of what's it like to be 20 right now versus 57? And maybe you're just not picking up on some sort of sea change of culture.

[A]

Well, sure, but do you want to write what's funny for 20 year olds or do you want to write what's funny for 57 year olds at this.

[B]

Point in their life? Yeah, I guess I try not to think about it too much because I still want to work with people who are much younger than me.

[A]

Sorry for the question.

[B]

In stand up, I've been doing this joke where I say this is a worse age to be a comedian because you can only talk about decay. So all your jokes are like, don't you hate it when your girlfriends from high school start dying of natural causes? It's the most unfun age to write about. So you want to still have younger people to collaborate with.

[A]

Yeah, but, but in terms of like your soul questions, the, the kind of impulses that you mentioned drive you to certain things, I would think that that changes. I mean, I understand wanting an audience, but I also think like your concerns change and your, your, your self conception changes and what, your, what your soul needs in the work changes. So there's got to be some kind of a give and take.

[B]

Well, no matter what happens, you slowly start writing like old Bob Dylan, you know, like, like you don't want to, but before you know it, all your. Everything you're thinking about is like, I'm walking through streets that are dead. You just start. You know, you're headed into, like, your. Your old guy writing. You have to kind of, like, push against it, you know, I always laugh about Loudon Wainwright, who, you know, he was undeclared, and he scored Knocked up and Genius folk singer, but he's been writing songs about dying since he was, like, 45 years old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's like, it's been so long he's been in that period of obsessing on mortality. So you do want to not just feel like, okay, I wrote about high school. I wrote about college. I wrote about young marriage, longer marriage that you can go back and visit different periods.

[A]

Well, I mean, you can see it in, like, musicians when they kind of mature their work. Like, the Stones are never. They're always going to write about making out in a car and they're 85, but somebody like Springsteen and I think the people that you gravitate towards musically, which is a big part of your life, I think you do. You don't ask them to stay in the same spot. Yeah. Like, that's you, like, when they're changing.

[B]

I love that Springsteen wrote about, you know, his first band and that everyone in his first band had died. He realized he was the last man standing, and he wrote an album about.

[A]

That, so that was his joke. Doesn't it suck when your bandmates start dying of natural cause?

[B]

Exactly. We can't help but do it, you know, like, although I remember Norman Lear used to always say to me, I feel like I'm the age of the person I'm with. And I always thought that that was a great way to. To look at it.

[A]

Yeah. Delusional, but great.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. It kept his spirit hot.

[A]

Yeah. I wanted to finish this quote, though. Okay, where is it? Where was I?

[B]

You were.

[A]

Or was it a desperate cry for help from a person that never feels whole, whose pain and trauma never eases, and who needs to numb himself with busyness and accomplishment? Well, I think we covered that. I think it is all of that. And does the answer to that question really matter? I never felt like I had another choice. I still don't. Because underneath all the healthy and unhealthy reasons for working and expressing myself is a love for comedy and the people who make it. I feel blessed that I got to create and have fun with so many amazing people. And I hope that continues going forward, at least in a slightly Less neurotic way. What would that mean, a slightly less neurotic way?

[B]

Well, I'm always interested, you know, can I access my creativity without all the stages of. Oh, here we go. We got. We got to write down, right? So, like, it might take me a while to, like, sit down to write, because there's that part of your brain that's like, what if it's not there today? What. What if it never comes back? Like, to have less of that kind of anxiety and neuroses around it where you could just kind of plug in and just kind of get there and. And not really think about the stakes, because the stakes are all in your head and it's all kind of probably just a misfiring.

[A]

What are the stakes?

[B]

I mean, the stakes are gonna laugh. Yeah. I mean, the stakes are whatever. It doesn't work. People don't like it. Public humiliation. You cost someone a lot of money that invested in you. Maybe they won't let you make the next one at some point. But I always had that theory that you need three really bad bombs in a row to be kicked out of the business. You need the first bomb, then they give you another one, and then if that bombs, they might give you another one with a lower budget.

[A]

Three in a row.

[B]

Three in a row. I think you need three big ones in a row, and then you're probably done. Although every once in a while, someone has a movie that's bad in such a weird way that people lose complete faith in that person and they sometimes don't work. They just got one, just one. But it's so weird that they don't believe you'll ever get back on the track.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, so I don't have an example of a person that had that, but I have seen.

[A]

Because they've been forgotten. Yeah, they have their gone.

[B]

They're whatever it is that people go, like, how did he ever even think that could work? You know, but you have to do things that are risky or, you know, you're doing the same thing every time. So that's a weird thing with old comedy, is nothing about it. Nothing about working has a better chance of succeeding because the last one succeeded. Each one, each one. Each thing you do is such an experiment that the last one working has absolutely nothing to do in helping you make this one work.

[A]

Success is some kind of an illusion. I mean, to get back to what we talk about on this podcast all the time is like, success is the worst thing that can happen to you in many ways.

[B]

Yeah. In terms of Just being creativity loose. You have to make a real conscious choice to be like Neil Young and go, I don't give a shit. I'm going to, I'm doing electronic right now or I'm not going to let you define me. I'm going to keep going where my.

[A]

Imagination takes yourself at that point. Have you ever done something in that vein?

[B]

No, I don't think so. I mean, I think I'm really careful about. All right, do you really want to think about this for two, three years? Because every time you do it, it's a multi year commitment. So I usually, if anything, I'm not doing things because I'm afraid it's going to be like something that I've done before or too easy. Not easy in just like a premise I think might work. It has to be like something deeper wants to be talked about. Even the bubble, which is like silly. But during COVID me and my friend Brent Foster, we would take walks in Malibu and we were like, let's just outline movies just for the hell of it because we're bored, really. And it kept coming up this like the nervous breakdown everyone was going to have from COVID about their success and their egos and what do you do? And like all the things that make you feel like you have value are just gone and no one cares at all about them. So even that which is like a, like a silly movie meant to be watched, like when you're just high or something, that was like the thing below it, like, oh, everyone's ego is being messed with because they're just like stuck in this building.

[A]

Yeah. Do you have a, a kind of personal criteria about success and failure? Is it just your gut? Oh, I'm watching this movie and I'm laughing at it. This movie that I made.

[B]

Well, I remember a long time ago, I read an interview with Alec Baldwin and he was saying you have to have your own personal compass on whether or not a project was successful. And that was the first time I ever really heard someone explain it in that way. And once I remember Warren Beatty was with Shandling and he said to me, you really don't know if what you've done is good for about 10 years after where you see if it survived in the culture and did anyone care about it and just how is it holding up? And that's really revealed itself to be true where there were things in the moment where we would take a beating like the cable guy or something, and then suddenly it would be 30 years later and people are still talking about it. And you realize people really like it. But those few reviewers or the box office that devastated you, where you really took a year to recover from, it was just wrong that. That. Oh, we did pull that off, at least, you know, for a certain amount of people who appreciated it. And that's happened a bunch of times where, you know, something like the movie Walk Hard or like, parody of Ray and Walk the Line, where, I mean, it made like, 2.9 million opening weekend, so it was like you didn't even know that was possible.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then, oh, I know that. And suddenly it's like 10, 15 years later and like, oh, people watch that all the time. People are always walking up to me. They still write articles about it. And so now, as a result of that, I don't get as affected when things come out because I understand they have a weird life where they kind of bop around the world and they develop some kind of reputation or not.

[A]

Well, it happened with Zoolander for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it just didn't do well when it came out.

[B]

Now, that was a few weeks after 9, 11.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was not tough spot. It was. It was, like, weird for a comedy to come out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even that there was a comedy. And it was like, can you like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are we ready to, like, laugh at all. At anything?

[A]

Apparently not.

[B]

Well, your scene's held up. Yeah. The hand. The whole thing.

[A]

The serious scene.

[B]

Yeah. But, like, people talk about Zoolander now as part of the canon of great things and.

[A]

The canon of great things. I like that. I like that. Should be your next book. The canon of great things.

[B]

And you see that now, like, you look at whatever the last. Whatever 30, 40 years where we've been doing things like, oh, here are the ones that people care about. And it didn't even matter if Zoolander opened. It's like people watch it now, like, it was made this week and love it, and it holds up. And I always say, like, they become like the wizard of Oz.

[A]

Right?

[B]

They're just these things that, like, oh, those are the survivors.

[A]

Has. Has any criticism ever cut you in a way that was longstanding to you, or did you ever learn anything from a perceived failure or a perceived criticism?

[B]

I was so mad at Siskel and Ebert for not liking heavyweights. My first bad reviews were. You're like, oh, God. And then the cable guy reviews. I really thought they would be raves because I thought, oh, they're gonna be so psyched. Jim's doing something different, taking a risk. And then as I was getting in the car, to go to the premiere. Someone handed me two faxes.

[A]

Yeah, thank you.

[B]

Who's that person with the Time and Newsweek reviews. And they were both brutal. I'm like, what? Like, I thought it was going to be, like, amazing.

[A]

Where were you going?

[B]

To the premiere. And then I was just, like, in a fog, the whole premiere. Like, oh, no, this is all going to go really badly.

[A]

Totally bifurcated.

[B]

Every once in a while, someone writes something in a review that just, like, they just find the thing that hurts you the most. When we did this is 40, I remember there was a review in, like, one of the trades, and they were just mad that they lived in a nice house, you know? And I was like, oh, we'll do, like, a Nancy Myers house. People love when people have, like, kind of, like, a pretty house. And it's like, the problems of a couple in a family.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they were just so offended. It was the beginning of, like, white people problems.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of, like, entitlement. Like, we don't. Like, like. Like, they're not allowed to have problems.

[A]

You're in the bad garden.

[B]

I was. I was like. I was the first person.

[A]

Yeah, you're exposing it.

[B]

And I was, like, shocked by. Because I never really even considered it. Like.

[A]

Like, yeah.

[B]

Oh, if you live in that house.

[A]

Because you have white people problems, you.

[B]

Shouldn'T care about the people in that house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was just really thrown by it. Like, well, what do I do? Because I kind of live in a house like that, so can I not write about, like, what happens to me?

[A]

Yeah, I. I remember I got this. This review for Playing God, which was one of the first movies I did after the X Files, where it said that I was, like, the tofu of actors and that I was. I could fill up space.

[B]

But tofu is really good for you. See, that's all interpretation. That's what you put in so you don't have to.

[A]

Was like, I could fill up space, but I. I needed, like, the flavorings of other. Of other vegetables and spices.

[B]

Can't have it alone.

[A]

I was just bland all on my own. And. And obviously that. That stays with me in some weird way. And I'm.

[B]

Oh, yeah, they all do.

[A]

They do. And I don't know if you remember any of the good ones.

[B]

I mean, I don't.

[A]

I don't believe them.

[B]

Anyway, every time there's been, like, a good thing, like, I remember there's, like, an article in, like, Time magazine. It was, like, the best. It was like, I wrote it about myself. And I remember Afterwards it was really long. It was like six pages in Time magazine.

[A]

Was it on you or was on a movie?

[B]

It was just about me.

[A]

Yeah. And you weren't involved in the making of the article?

[B]

No, I did an interview for it and I think I was supposed to be on the COVID And at the last second they switched it to Obamacare. And so there's a picture of Obama like dressed as a dad.

[A]

White paper problem.

[B]

And then the article came out and I was like, oh, this is great. I have never met one person who's ever read that article. And then I realized like, oh, no one reads almost any of this or all the things that you're so bothered by. Except back in the day if you got just fileted by the New York Times, people were like, hey, sorry man, that was like really, really rough. When they would go hard at you.

[A]

Oh, I remember the newspaper hitting the door because often I'd be like somewhere else in a hotel and okay, there's the Times just hit the door. Do I get out of bed?

[B]

Oh, going down to the newsstand to see what it was. Now no one cares about any of it. No one. It's not the same thing.

[A]

Not only that, but you can go online and really get fileted in ways that are, are pretty interesting and powerful.

[B]

You could have a 14 year old destroy you on letterbox. You never recover the rest your life. And you know, we talk about this like I talk about with my kids, like, how do you do your creative work? Be bold and take chances, keep your own counsel. And even in the best of times, there's a 20, 30% that's going to hate it. Hate all of it. Even if you completely nailed it. Certain people just don't like it. Just like, you know, ever have like something when the Oscar for best picture and you just go, I hate that movie. Right. So there's always people who hate everything. And so you have to develop these weird blinders where you let in some stuff. You kind of want to learn some stuff, but if you, if you want to dip in and destroy yourself, it's there. Yeah, like it takes me five minutes to find something that'll keep me in bed for a month if I would let it.

[A]

What would you type in for like the most pain? Apatow Suck.

[B]

Jewish schlub.

[A]

That's not going to go for the movies. Yeah, that's not what you really care about.

[B]

I mean it could be, I mean it could be anything you can. You, sometimes you stumble into it like you're looking at something else. Oh, and like, your name is bro. Like, why are you talking about me?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All of a sudden.

[A]

Yeah. Why did Duchovny stop acting? What?

[B]

What?

[A]

It's like. It's like third on the list. Like, how the fuck did that.

[B]

I mean, I went on YouTube once and it was like. Like a video. It was like, why the Judd Apatow era ended. Someone made a documentary about it. I was too scared to click on it.

[A]

They didn't ask you to be in the doc.

[B]

Exactly. Where did it all go wrong? The movie with like an AI Judd Face Foreign.

[A]

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[C]

Well, hi, everybody. It's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill. It could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can, but it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America, and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you have to kind of live with Mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[D]

Hello, I'm James Corden, and on my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth. From Dr. Dre to Julianne Moore to David Beckham to Cynthia Erivo to Martin Scorsese to Jeremy Renner to Denzel Washington to Kim Kardashian, we talk about the people, places, possessions, music, and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

Since you're not on set acting, I'm wondering about the consciousness of the writer, because it took me, and even sometimes still, that voice will get into my head when I'm on set. Yeah, tofu. Tofu, Tofu.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not really. I haven't thought of it till just this moment, so I. I don't think of it that often. But I wonder, and it's not a. It's not a good thing. It's not like. It's not like, hey, Michael Jordan, I'm going to take that fucking.

[B]

I need the anger to play well.

[A]

Yeah. No, I don't. I shrivel. So I wonder, like, as a writer, which obviously the. The moment is extended. You don't have to deliver, like when they say action. But I wonder, do you ever get inhibited that way for any. Any period of time by perceived negativity or remembered negativity or failures and things like that?

[B]

I mean, you could just get a general, like, why do I think I know any? Like, just almost just like a still a blanket over your whole thing of, like, do I know what's good?

[A]

So much of your life is acting like, you know a lot.

[B]

Yeah. You have to. And. But you also know that you're winging it.

[A]

I'm just saying, your life.

[B]

Yeah. You're pretending that you know what you're doing because you've had that in your career, right? Where you, like, you've told a studio or someone, like, this is going to be big and it's going to work because of this. And then, like, you're in a preview and everything you said for the last two years has been proven wrong in 90 minutes. And then you just feel ridiculous. And the good executives go, yeah, because in movies, if somebody has one hit out of three, it's like a baseball player. They're doing great. I mean, most people look at Scorsese's movies like, how many of them work? How many of them don't? Like, you can't succeed every time, but you have to believe in yourself every time to have any. Any shot.

[A]

It's hard work to make a bad movie. It's hard work. It's just as hard to make a bad one as a good one. But one thing about you that I respect is that. And I don't know this for a fact, but I think I know this about you, is that when you're at that point, at that screening when this sucks, you don't give up on it. You'll go and reshoot and I'll grind hard. Well, you'll adjust. And me, sometimes I think I'll just curl up and say, ah, it. I hate all of you anyway.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, I'm. I'm done. I. I tried whatever, but I. That's commendable, I think, for you to be that kind of a person, that would just go. That keeps grinding at it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it also is. It shows that you believed in that original vision or whatever. Or you're smart enough to pivot. I don't know which it is.

[B]

Well, it's just. I'm just so terrified of, at the end of it going, oh, that wasn't good. Like, I can't even tolerate it. So, like, my worst fear is I'm just going down directv scrolling like we did in the old days before streaming, and I'll just see one of my movies and be really ashamed that anyone's watching it. Like, that's the worst feeling in the world. Like, oh, no, that thing's still around. I never want that to happen. I mean, when I shoot, you know, as, you know, like, I shoot so much footage, and so I usually don't do reshoots because I've literally shot what I think the reshoot would be while I'm shooting the movie.

[A]

I mean, it's not just. I mean, I worked with Ivan Reitman and he shot. He sat cover like a Tent. That was his line. But that's not you. You're not covering like a tent. But you, you're shooting a lot of footage because that footage is often different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you're, you're, you're auditioning lines, you're throwing shit out, you're improvising. So it's not, it's not that you're shooting from all different sides.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And because you don't know how you're cut it, but you don't know what's going to be in it. So I imagine when you have a screening that doesn't go well, you've got like five more jokes that, you know that you had on that day that you're going to come back to.

[B]

Yeah. Then in editing, if one joke doesn't work, there is something to try. Because my fear is I'm going to find out my joke didn't work, and then I. And I'll go, is there another joke in the footage to try? And they'll go, no. And then you're just writing jokes in.

[A]

The back of people's heads. True, though. I don't think you've ever gotten to there, have you?

[B]

Sometimes you get to the place where you have to do an ADR joke, like just audio on the back of someone's hand.

[A]

ADR jokes. I don't.

[B]

They do work. They do.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Watch Bottle Rocket. There's a lot of great ADR jokes that Wes Anderson and Owen wrote.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That you notice that if you really watch it, like, oh, they really grinded some fun.

[A]

You know what ADR is?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But it's a, it's an interesting way that, that you work because obviously you. You work hard. You're seven months out. You just told me when we sat down, you're. You're punching up a script.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But when you get there, how many times are you going to go through that script before you go to new lines?

[B]

And I'll. Yeah. And. But I'll express it.

[A]

How many times you think.

[B]

I mean, just a gazillion. And a lot of times, like on the day the whole thing gets tossed, you just think of something better on the day. So you're kind of preparing a script and you're trying to make it perfect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then on the day you're. You're willing to, like, shoot it once or twice and go, all right, now that we're here, it feels completely different than what was in my head. But I always feel like the actors are going to do something that I would never think of the way they speak, the way they're reacting to each other. And that I learned from Gary, because I would watch the rehearsals. Gary would rehearse for three days, then shoot Larry Sanders show in two days.

[A]

And he kept rehearsed for three days.

[B]

Yeah, and he would keep. Well, you do a table. Yeah. Sometimes a table read on Monday. And then he would let the rehearsals be loose. And that's where if anyone wanted to change anything, they could experiment. And I just thought, yeah, that's where he's letting some magic happen. And then he had to lock it back down. But I thought, oh, I could just shoot what's basically the rehearsals and see what people will do.

[A]

Right. And that's. You found that out early or you just found that out by watching Garry?

[B]

I found that out. I'm trying to think. The first time I saw someone do it was Stiller on the Ben Stiller show when we would do sketches. And I remember Ben was playing Tony Robbins and he just talked like Tony Robbins for like 45 minutes. We needed like a three minute sketch. And he just was laughing and we were throwing up lines, and he was just improvising. And he would do that in every situation. He just knew because he had edited some short films and he had his MTV show before our show, and he just knew, oh, it's all for the editing room.

[A]

Let's just talk about documentaries for a minute. I don't want to take up too much of your time.

[B]

I've got nothing to do.

[A]

Okay, so we'll keep going. We talked a little bit before when, you know, you asked me how the podcast is going, and I said, well, I thought I was interested in people, but it turns out I'm not that interested in people because it's. And one of the things I found is, like, I want to ask stupid questions because I'm tired of asking smart questions. Because smart questions have an answer implicit in them.

[B]

Yeah. You know, yeah. You want to shake it up to get to a new thing.

[A]

And I'm wondering, because you've done documentaries and you've done podcasts, but mostly the documentaries, you have an idea of what your documentary is about, maybe, or you're making the documentary to find out what it's about. How do you go about figuring out the kind of questioner you want to be? Because you're on that side, the other guy's on camera and you're directing him with your questions. But you also don't want to direct too hard because you want to get.

[B]

The truth well, yeah, I mean, it's very instinctual. I just am finishing up a documentary that I'm directing with Michael Bonfiglio, who did the George Carlin documentary with me. And so I had to do 10 hours with Mel Brooks. And so I thought, I've seen a lot of documentaries with him, but the thing that I haven't seen too much is him talking about his emotional life. So I've seen a lot of the funny stories and all that classic stuff, but how can I get him to just tell me how it felt? What did it feel like to fight in World War II? How did it feel to be on your show of shows and be the young guy in that staff of all these geniuses? So I had an intention with him, like, how much can we see Mel Brooks heart? And as a way of showing him be reflective.

[A]

Did you tell him that?

[B]

I don't think that I did that explicitly, but I think I did tell him I wanted to tell his story and to have it be a more personal documentary. But I felt like he's 99 now. He has a lot of wisdom. I mean, he's lived through so many different eras. You know, he's had to deal with, you know, the loss of his wife and, you know, Ann Bancroft and Carl Reiner and that there's a lot to learn from his experience. And so I approached it like I'm basically a copycat of Mel Brooks. And so the documentary is me asking him things.

[A]

You feel you're.

[B]

That I want to know.

[A]

You feel like you're a copycat of Mel Brooks?

[B]

Of course, because when I was a kid, it was just Mel Brooks and Woody Allen and Blake Edwards or like a few people that made comedies. And, you know, you would see Mel Brooks and it was like kind of like this odd little genius who was crazy confident.

[A]

Yeah, he was.

[B]

And I think, you know, I have got Stiller and Sandler in the movie. Like, we all looked at him like, oh, could you do that? Is that a job? Like, seemed like the coolest, most amazing, hilarious guy in the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so. But now, as me being older and him being older, to go, oh, tell me about your ride. What. What was it like?

[A]

Do you feel like that's. This is part of you coming out as well? Are you reaching for more? Not that your movies aren't emotional, but are you. Are you finding yourself responding to that more as you get older?

[B]

I think so. That's why I like documentaries, because I like that there's just a lot there with any human experience. If you go deep with anybody. It's so rich and emotional, and it's almost too powerful to talk about. What was this life that this person had? How do you sum up Garry Chandling's life? His joys, his creativity, his struggles, his pain, and to try to figure out, can you get it across, that it's in the universe of accurate to something and to feel him. I like the Garry Shandling documentary, Zen Diaries of Garry Shandling on HBO Max, because I think at the end, you did get to know Garry and you do get to feel Gary.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

And so that part is. It's moving. And I like the idea of Gary being known. I hate the idea that Gary's gone and is he just going to be forgotten? And he was so special and so fascinating, and so now there's a way for people to access it in some way.

[A]

Were you surprised by anything in the making of that documentary about Gary?

[B]

I mean, I was very surprised that Gary had no photographs in his house that were personal. He didn't have pictures of his family, of his brother, his childhood, of his career. He just kind of had nothing out. He had a lot of, you know, Buddhist statues and things like that. And then, you know, I opened up a closet and, like, he had saved everything. And how. How interesting that is.

[A]

Closet again for you.

[B]

Yeah, that he's in the closet and he has everything in there. And. And that he was sentimental in some way because he kept it all. And there was a real story in those photos. They were videos from his childhood. And that there was this really sad story about, like, a kid whose brother was very sick with cystic fibrosis and he died, and then no one would talk about him. And Gary was not able to process that loss, and that it just seemed to affect his relationships throughout his life. And then at the very end of the doc, I found this letter he had written to his brother near the end of Gary's life. I don't know if a therapist told him to do it, to process it, but. And it really was everything that I thought it was. So, like, my guess of what had affected him so much. Gary had fully written out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That the loss was so profound for him and that this was, like, his best friend in the world and that he never, like, fully recovered from it.

[A]

Yes. I remember. I remember that in the doc where he was. He didn't go to the funeral. Right. He wasn't allowed to go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They didn't acknowledge it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They didn't acknowledge the loss.

[B]

Yeah. They didn't bring him to the funeral because his mom didn't want Gary to see her cry. And then they just didn't talk about him. And it's funny because, like, Gary never talked about it. I mean, maybe, like, once in all the time I. I knew him.

[A]

Yeah. I'm going to finish up by reading the end of this letter.

[B]

Okay. They better close strong if you want to close her.

[A]

You feel blessed. Life is so wonderful, but also so mysterious, dark, and strange. We all need a language to try to understand and get through it. This is mine. This being filmmaking or comedy?

[B]

Comedy, I think.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Last year, I took ayahuasca.

[B]

We all have at this point.

[A]

And at the end of a long trip, I saw an image of Jesus on the cross, which was strange since I am Jewish. Instantly, I understood what it meant. We were all supposed to be there for each other. Love, brotherhood, sacrifice. It's as simple as that. I'm not converting, but I did feel the need to buy the New Testament. Did you?

[B]

Well, I got it on audible. Johnny Cash was reading it.

[A]

Johnny Cash reads it. I haven't listened yet. No, you haven't listened yet. I've got to finish this book first.

[B]

It's so boring. I mean, it's just so boring. But I'm gonna try. But man is the Old Testament, boy.

[A]

Well, the Old Testament's pretty violent. The New Testament, a little boring. It's the same story four times.

[B]

See, I still don't even know the difference between the two, but I will. I will get to it. I'm gonna get to it, or at least I'll have chat GPT explain it to me.

[A]

But I think it's. It's admirable your. Your sincerity there, even though you're joking again, you know, But I feel you reaching for a sincerity, and I feel you reaching for it, you know, more and more. And I look forward to seeing more of. Of how you stitch that together with being so funny as well. All right, man. Thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you. And that was fun.

[A]

That's all I got. Yeah.

[B]

That's all you needed to give?

[A]

That's a kneeling thing. That's all I got. That's all I got.

[B]

You gave all you had.

[A]

Thanks, guys. Just a memo about sitting down with Judd Apatow. I didn't bring up. What I'd wanted to bring up is he told me that or. No, he didn't tell me. But in his book, he had written early on. I think in his early 20s, he wrote a script for the symptoms. Symptoms. The symptoms. The Simpsons and they repurposed it or they rewrote it recently or within the last five or ten years. And Judd speaks about it as it's like a dream come true. You know, his childhood dream or early career dream of writing a Simpsons episode comes true 30 years later and it's quite amazing. And talk about Stairway thoughts. The the French no word for ponce descalier escalator thoughts. I wish that I'd brought it up.

[B]

But I didn't bring it up.

[A]

Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the full version of my post Interview Thoughts that you won't hear anywhere else. That's more of my recaps on interviews with guests like Chris Carter and Emily Deschanel. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonade premium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's Lemonade Premium. Don't miss out. Fail Better is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Ari Abracci and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinsky and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Dacot. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

[B]

Story Pirates is the number one podcast for kids and families in the world and the newest addition to the Lemonada Media Network. We take stories written by real kids and turn them into sketch comedy and songs featuring professional actors, famous guests and original music. So get ready to light up your kids imaginations with a show that you'll also enjoy. The Story Pirates Podcast new season coming November 6th.