← Fail Better with David Duchovny
Fail Better with David Duchovny
From “Junkie Doctor” to Addiction Specialist with Dr. Jason Giles
01:01:30
Loading summary
Transcript204 lines
- [00:01]
David Duchovny
The Defender 110 is a vehicle made for the modern explorer. It's built with purpose and it's naturally capable and ready for expeditions. The Defender 110 has the endurance to take you further than you thought possible and you'll drive with on road presence and off road prowess. This is a vehicle that looks tough because it is tough. Its exterior is designed for optimum durability and the raised hood and sculpted grille give the Defender 110amodern edge. On the inside. It's ready for the whole crew with five seats and the option of expanding to seven. That's capability, meeting comfort and the tech is no joke. 3D surround cameras with Clearsight Ground View let you see underneath the vehicle. You can anticipate obstacles and rough terrain anything you encounter on your adventures, and Clearsight Rear View offers unobstructed views even when you can't see through the back window. Driver aid technologies also make driving and parking simpler, and the next generation infotainment system helps you make even more of your experience. You can also customize the driver display to match your needs and your journey. Design your Defender 110@landroverusa.com hey, I'm Erica.
- [01:16]
Mahoney
Mahoney, host of Lemonada's hit podcast Senseless. I want to tell you about an app that's honestly been a game changer for Duckbill. Duckbill is like an executive assistant for your personal life, powered by AI and real humans who tackle your to do list so you don't have to because life is busy. So think of Duckbill like your personal task force that never gets tired, never procrastinates, and gives you a break. All you do is submit a task and they get on it fast. I've used Duckbill to manage my calendar, book doctor's appointments for my kids, order thoughtful gifts for my husband, and even plan my podcast, launch party venue and all. It helps me show up for the people I love and take better care of myself because time is power and everyone deserves extra help in reclaiming theirs. So if your plate is overflowing, pass a few things off to Duckbill. Life is short, so duck it. Use code senseless for 50% off your first two months@getduckbill.com that's getduckbill.com.
- [02:19]
Dr. Jason Giles
Lemonader.
- [02:31]
David Duchovny
I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Dr. Jason Giles is a specialist in addiction medicine and anesthesiology. He has devoted his life to helping people recover from their struggles with Substance abuse. Jason is also a friend of mine, and while I've never formally been a patient of his, he's helped me out a ton over the years. I'm thrilled to have Jason on the podcast today to listen to him tell his story. So I don't want to spoil it too much. Suffice it to say he was drawn to the work he does today because of his own experiences with addiction. He's lived an incredible life, has a beautiful family that I know very well, and he supported so many in their recovery through the groundbreaking work he does day in and day out. So without further ado, I'll turn it over to him to tell you all about his journey and the unique perspective he's able to bring to his practice. Here's my friend, Dr. Jason Giles. Good morning, Jason.
- [03:29]
Dr. Jason Giles
Good morning, David.
- [03:30]
David Duchovny
It's nice to see you. I haven't seen you in a while.
- [03:32]
Dr. Jason Giles
It's nice to see you too.
- [03:33]
David Duchovny
You are my guinea pig today.
- [03:35]
Dr. Jason Giles
Awesome.
- [03:36]
David Duchovny
As I embrace the stupid question, here's my first stupid question to you. I would start with is who, who are you? Tell me, tell me who you are. Tell me a little bit about your, your childhood, where you got to at a certain point and where you are now.
- [03:56]
Dr. Jason Giles
Sure. The precis. This question is actually not so stupid a question. It's a humble, simple question as a starting point. I grew up in Southern California. I grew up in Santa Monica. Raised in a rent control apartment with an alcoholic father and an awesomely codependent mother and, and that, and one younger sister. And that balance of the family kind of making its way, getting it through shaped my early sense of the world. Myself in it, but the world also. I went to public schools. I was one of the smart kids growing up. I could, I could do stuff. I was in special programs for being smart. So I was rewarded for that. And I think I maybe like an athlete or, or somebody else with a talent. I, I hit the gas on that.
- [04:50]
David Duchovny
A mathlete.
- [04:51]
Dr. Jason Giles
A mathlete, yes. Math and science. And that wound up ultimately taking me to Berkeley for college and then medical school and residency. I fell in love with clinical medicine working in the Berkeley Free Clinic when I was a college student there. And as I was going through school, I got more and more interested in the harder and harder things. The more complicated, the more, I don't know, the more involved, the more complex that. That's the stuff that turned me on. And so I wound up in, in anesthesia, which is all, all patients for all surgery and with all medical problems. There's this. There's a recurring theme which is I. Based on those early experiences. I. I think this is my understanding of it today. It's based on those early experiences. I was seeking to understand the world in an attempt to manage the world, to control the chaos around. It's very chaotic in an operating room and the anesthesiologist stands at the head of the table and is the one administering calm, if you will, not just in the form of the. Of the chemicals, but it's the. It's the coxswain, if you will, of the. Of the whole operating room, coordinating the nurses and when the surgeon starts and keeping everything on track. So that was a fish and water situation for me back then. Loved it. But then there were some other adventures to have along the way that revealed some deeper insights which I have a hunch we might get into.
- [06:24]
David Duchovny
I feel like we're almost there because I do want to talk about our relationship and how we met. And I think. I don't think we can actually get into that until we take you further on your journey.
- [06:38]
Dr. Jason Giles
And that's probably true. Otherwise it won't make any sense.
- [06:40]
David Duchovny
Why, why.
- [06:41]
Dr. Jason Giles
Why would a nice guy like you be talking to a guy like me? It doesn't make any sense. This drive to become okay by. By knowing things, that may be the simplest way to say it, left me feeling flat. I did not feel okay despite acquiring an enormous amount of knowledge and competence and. And excellence in. In an area. And probably behind that feeling of emptiness. My assessment of this is kaleidoscopic because there's different facets. But my sense, looking back at the time, is that I wanted some relief from my own thoughts, my own thoughts of inadequacy, of incompetence, of just being wrong overall, generally wrong. I think most people, I bet every one of your listeners has a deep suspicion that they're missing something or that they're inadequate in some way. That's. That's a universal feeling. Where it gets into pathologic is thinking that there's something I can do to fix it because it doesn't need to be fixed. That, that, that missing bit is the yearning for connection, for spirituality, for.
- [07:57]
David Duchovny
How are you using the word pathologic at that point?
- [08:00]
Dr. Jason Giles
Well, if you think there's something wrong with you and there isn't, then the next step you take is guaranteed to be wrong because you're trying to fix a problem that there isn't an actual problem.
- [08:11]
David Duchovny
Okay.
- [08:11]
Dr. Jason Giles
Right. It's just a story that, that I had told myself. And it's A story that a lot of people tell themselves that they're. Don't fit, don't belong, not good enough, you know, and, and so the bargain I made was not. Let's get to the heart of this, figure out what's actually wrong. I need to, I need help. I'm going down. It was okay. I need to work harder. I need to, I need to manage, I need to manage my own internal chemical environment by bringing in some extra neurotransmitters from the top drawer of the anesthesia cart and, and then I'll be able to, to keep going. And that's pathologic, right? That, that's where, that's where I think everyone would agree that the, the car just come off the rails. It's, it's, it's well past time to ask for help when you're considering managing your feelings with fentanyl, which is, which is what I was doing. So. But again, this is, this is my understanding of it post, post hoc. At the time it seemed like a really good idea. It seemed like, in fact it seemed to me like who better to manage his feelings then the guy trained in all these chemicals. It seemed like a really smart idea at the time.
- [09:28]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [09:29]
Dr. Jason Giles
So, yeah, you and I were chatting earlier about what constitutes failure. And, and I think it has to do with, with timing. It has to do with, with the timing of our awareness. Sometimes our, sometimes our biggest mistakes turn out to be the portals or the, or the thresholds of our greatest success and insights and vice versa. Sometimes that. Right. Finish.
- [09:55]
David Duchovny
One of the things that I, one of the things that I've come to realize having these discussions is, and I think it's a, it's kind of this Chinese proverb that people have been talking about for a couple years and I don't know it, but the, the punchline, the through line is at this point, we don't know.
- [10:13]
Dr. Jason Giles
Too soon to tell.
- [10:14]
David Duchovny
Yeah, too soon to tell. So that, that is pretty much where I'm standing today on success and failure. Oh, this is a success. This is a great success. You, you're a doctor. Well, it's too soon to tell. Yeah, this is a great failure. You're a junkie doctor.
- [10:31]
Dr. Jason Giles
Right.
- [10:32]
David Duchovny
Well, it's too soon to tell.
- [10:33]
Dr. Jason Giles
It's too soon to tell.
- [10:34]
David Duchovny
So. So you wrote when, when we first met, you gave me a self published memoir. I, I guess we call it a memoir called Junkie Doctor. And, and that's where we are at this point in your story. Right. So the, at this point you stand to lose so much by the time, by the time it got unmanageable for you because you managed for a while. You're very, you know, you're, you're, you're capable.
- [11:07]
Dr. Jason Giles
Kept the plates spinning. Yeah.
- [11:08]
David Duchovny
Yeah, for sure. So, so how long were you able to anesthetize yourself while being employed? You know, and, and well, there's.
- [11:19]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yeah, so there's, there's an interesting piece of it, which is the, the chemical itself is actually a smaller part of the story. The, the. The part that takes up. That took up more of my mental windscreen. My thought, My thought space was just what you said. I have so much to lose. And so the, the oddly reinforcing, Reinforcing notion that there's something wrong with you played out in the fact that I was behaving as if there was there. In fact, I created something quite wrong with me by. By doing that now. Now, you know, taking drugs from the hospital, danger of self administration, all that stuff, you know, progressive dependence as marked on a map by the distance from between when I first used, which was the. My backyard of my house, which is about 10 miles away from the hospital. And then several weeks would go by because I knew that was the wrong thing to do. But, but I sort of, in my mind, constructed it as an escape hatch. Okay. I have this thing in case it gets bad. Bad meaning my feelings about myself or the stress or the intensity. I can, I can take. I can take a break. I can take a break and look, nothing happened. Nothing happened. And then a few weeks later, I got to do it again and again, nothing happened. And then a couple of weeks later, and then a week later, and then a couple days later and then the next day. And so the, and the distance away from the hospital got shorter and shorter and shorter until finally, at the end, it was. Couldn't wait for it to be the end of the day, end of the shift, and walking out in the, you know, the last or bathroom on the way out the door. Right. Just before I even got. Before I even got in my car.
- [13:04]
David Duchovny
Instead of the break from the pressure, it becomes. The thing itself becomes its own pressure.
- [13:11]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yes.
- [13:12]
David Duchovny
And the work is becoming a break that you don't want from the feelings that you do.
- [13:18]
Dr. Jason Giles
Precisely, Precisely. So I created a.
- [13:19]
David Duchovny
It's actually double mess.
- [13:21]
Dr. Jason Giles
A vice grip of mess. Yes, exactly. Exactly.
- [13:24]
David Duchovny
That, that's, that's terrifying. I mean, can you, can you take me back to the moment before it falls apart, which is actually the moment where it all comes together? Because at this point, we don't Know.
- [13:35]
Dr. Jason Giles
Turning point, the turn, the turning point of the story is, is when I am, when I'm miserable all day long at work because I'm in withdrawal. I'm in withdrawal from the opiates, which feels like, you know, when my patients best described it, he said, each drop of sweat has thorns. So everything hurts, everything's awful, everything's miserable. And I'm trying to function that way while basically. So I'm not intoxicated, but I'm. I'm the opposite of that. I'm. I need to be intoxicated. So I'm struggling through the day. I've got my plans that I'm gonna. All I have to do is stop. All I have to do is just not do it for a couple of days and then I'll be all right. And of course, that day, I don't, you know, I don't make it. I get through the work, I get through the end of the day, patient's okay. No point was I ever intoxicated, dealing with patients. But you know, let's be honest, I was not in my right, right mind while, while doing that. So I get to the end of the day, I've got my Fentanyl that I've argued with myself all day about not using, but I. I use it just to get the sick off, just to feel not so bad. And I'm almost back home and I get a page from the department chair, who she doesn't usually talk to the residents. You don't usually get a call from the boss. And so I call back and I say, what's up? He says, not casting any accusations. However, a large amount of fentanyl is missing from the hospital or pharmacy. If it's all back by six o' clock, then this phone call never happened. And so that was my invitation, that was my worst day ever. Was coming to light from the guy who recruited me into the specialty, whose respect that I craved and enjoyed professionally. And I had let him down and the profession down and myself down and everybody else. So that was the worst day.
- [15:33]
David Duchovny
Yeah. So this is the part of the movie where we go, what's he going to do? Is he going to go and try to replace that Fentanyl? Is he going to come clean? What's he going to do? What did you do?
- [15:43]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yeah, and believe me, I thought about it. You know, I thought. I thought about trying to Bonnie and Clyde the last little bit of it. And because there was. It was all on fire behind me, metaphorically, and there was not. There was nothing to Go back to as how it looked. He said some words to me, and this is where I think words make a huge difference. He said, you're an excellent doctor. We love working with you. I love you personally. I want you to get well. This is a problem we've dealt with before. And when you're well, I want you to come back and work here. So those are the words he said. That was the. That was the all. That was the fig leaf or the olive branch or the, you know, entreaty. And it did not sound like that. I know those are the words, but the way it sounded to me at the time was, we caught you. This is the end. You're gonna go through all this stuff. We're gonna make our. You're gonna prove our case for us by going away to treatment. That's how we're gon certain that this is a problem. And then you're never coming back in here before. And that sound you're gonna hear is the bolt sliding, you know, snicking shut and you're done as a doctor.
- [16:54]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Hey, Julia, Louis Dreyfus here. If you listen to me on my Wiser than me podcast, you probably already know that I'm an investor and an evangelist for the mill food recycler. There are a lot of reasons to love mill, but for me, it's all about the impact. Keeping food out of the garbage is one of the most powerful things we can do to help the planet every single day. We're talking banana peels, carrot tops, old takeout. When that stuff heads to the landfill, it becomes a huge driver of climate change. If you already compost, great. But of course, there's the smell, the flies, the running to the curb every day with a little leaking compost bag made of cornstarch. That's where mill comes in. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. It can handle nearly anything from a turkey carcass to like 20 avocado pits. It works automatically while you sleep. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never ever smells. Mill makes dry, nutrient rich grounds that you can use in your garden, add to your compost feed to your chickens. Or mill can get them back to a small farm for you, but you kind of have to live with mill to really get it. And that's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.
- [18:09]
David Duchovny
The Defender 110 is a vehicle made for the modern explorer. It's built with purpose and it's naturally capable and ready for expeditions, the Defender 110 has the endurance to take you further than you thought possible and you'll drive with on road presence and off road prowess. This is a vehicle that looks tough because it is tough. Its exterior is designed for optimum durability and the raised hood and sculpted grille give the Defender 110amodern edge. On the inside. It's ready for the whole crew with five seats and the option of expanding to seven. That's capability, meeting comfort and the tech is no joke. 3D surround cameras with Clearsight Ground View let you see underneath the vehicle. You can anticipate obstacles and rough terrain anything you encounter on your adventures, and Clearsight Rear View offers unobstructed views even when you can't see through the back window. Driver aid technologies also make driving and parking simpler and the next generation infotainment system helps you make even more of your experience. You can also customize the driver display to match your needs and your journey. Design your Defender 110@Land RoverUSA.com if you're in the business of growing your business, everyone will tell you it comes down to saying the right thing at the right time to the right people. But how do you know what right is? That sure isn't explained. Luckily, Constant Contact is here to help. That's right, you don't need to know anything about marketing. Constant Contact's award winning marketing platform is here to make the process easy and effective. For small businesses like yours, Constant Contact puts everything in one place and helps you coordinate it all in just a few clicks. We're talking email, text, social media events. You can handle all those things and you don't need to juggle dozens of different tools to do it. They have hundreds of customizable templates too, so you can find something that looks and reads like your brand. When it comes to the numbers side of things. You also get tools like automated sending and real time reporting to actually help drive sales. So you're not just putting your business out there, you're growing it. All this and more is why over half a million small businesses trust Constant Contact to stay connected, top of mind and ahead of the competition. There was a time when I hadn't heard of Constant Contact and the prospect of marketing a small business seemed like one of the most daunting parts of running one. Now I'm impressed by how all in one and effective their approach really is Constant Contact helping the small stand tall get a free 30 day trial when you go to constant contact.com try constant contact free for 30 days at constant contact.com constantcontact.com in the time between you got that phone call from the head of your department or the head of the hospital to when you had the meeting with him, did you start to try to handle this in your personal life as well, or were you just kind of focused on the professional aspect of it at this point? Well, it's a short window, right?
- [21:43]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yeah, I had, I had boxed my personal life into a very tiny little space. You know, I wasn't telling anyone the truth. I wasn't, I wasn't opened up to anyone. I was, I was always too busy. I was always either back and forth to work or asleep or, or quietly throwing up in the bathroom or lying in bed, you know, hoping that the night would pass quickly. There, there was, there was a, there were enormous number of off ramps and opportunities that I could have spoken up, but I was too, I was too scared and too confident that I could handle it myself. Sort of a weird, A weird. Oh, no, we're frozen.
- [22:22]
David Duchovny
I'm frozen.
- [22:24]
Dr. Jason Giles
Maybe not.
- [22:25]
David Duchovny
You know what? This is why I, this is our first time filming and I hate it because now I'm catching the sun and I got into, I got into radio because, because I like the idea of just being a voice out there. And now I'm, now, now I'm fleeing the sun, coming in the windows and I'm moving around here and, and I've completely flow of the conversation. Thank you everyone for, for wanting to go over to you YouTube or wherever the hell we think we're going.
- [22:53]
Dr. Jason Giles
That's where the audience is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what they're telling me. Okay, so, so anyhow, the, the, it was this weird mixture of, of increasing confidence that I can, I got this. I know it looks bad, but I can, I can write which is my, my professional life. My, my, my job in the OR is to take a death situation and turn it into a survival situation. That, that's my job.
- [23:15]
David Duchovny
Right?
- [23:15]
Dr. Jason Giles
And so I'm, I'm super well trained in that. But where I'm concerned, where I'm trying to save myself, it's literally the, the biggest Achilles heel you can have. It's the. Right, it's the, it's, the fatal flaw is not, is to say, oh, I got this, I got this. I don't, I don't got this. I did not, I did not have this.
- [23:36]
David Duchovny
Isn't that a Mel Brooks movie? There's a. I got it, I got it, I got it.
- [23:39]
Dr. Jason Giles
I don't got It. Yeah, that's exactly what happened. Yeah. Can a can of corn gave me great big black eye. So anyhow, for some reason, and. And probably this is not noble. It's probably because I had really no better options at that point. There was no going back to the hospital. I didn't want to die. I knew. I knew I didn't want to die, which would have been another alternative, I suppose.
- [24:02]
David Duchovny
And there are quite impressive statistics about anesthesiologists who. Who do.
- [24:07]
Dr. Jason Giles
Oh, that's the other thing.
- [24:08]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [24:09]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yeah. I forgot to mention. He said, we've been through this before.
- [24:13]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [24:13]
Dr. Jason Giles
With another resident. And I had. He. There's a resident that. That was in training before me and who had passed away a couple of years before I joined the department. They had found him dead in the call room, overdosed on fentanyl. So this chairman. And that's another one of those things where you, you know, thank God that he was tuned into that experience. Unfortunately, one of my colleagues, who I never met lost his life. But it wasn't. It wasn't in vain because that heightened the. I don't know, suspicion or. Or sensitivity to. To the superstar resident who was dribbling off the court. And so you never know what forces come right. Too. Too early, too. It was. It was too soon. Too soon. And I didn't know. Yeah. Too soon to tell. So I. I just. I leap. I leapt at the chance to do something different, man. And I. And. And I abandoned my plan, which was.
- [25:12]
David Duchovny
You felt a great relief in some.
- [25:14]
Dr. Jason Giles
I felt a great. I felt a great relief. I said, can I talk to you? And he said, I was hoping he would say that. And he gave me his address and I went to his house and I explained. And, you know, the only way for all that fentanyl to get back in the pharmacy would have been if I were standing in the pharmacy because I, you know, I. I had used it all. And he gave me a number to call which connected me to a program. And I just kept doing the thing they said. I did not. I did not think it was going to work, but I didn't have a better plan. I didn't. I didn't have a better idea of what to do. And I just kept one footing in front of the other until this program was.
- [25:59]
David Duchovny
This program.
- [26:00]
Dr. Jason Giles
This program was the. The Medical Board Diversion Program, which is. Which is formally no longer in California. It was the first one in the nation. It's reformed in a different. Different guys. But this was kind of the golden age of it. And I Got very fortunate to be in with some of the original founding, you know, thought leaders in the doctor wellness space that was an outgrowth of the 1970s and all. And great counselors, great therapists, great group. I went to, I went to treatment for 100 days up at a doctor focused treatment center in, in Oregon.
- [26:41]
David Duchovny
What did that treatment consist of, aside from getting physically off of the fentanyl?
- [26:47]
Dr. Jason Giles
So that was interesting because I went, I went through the. So this is, this is October or the, or the, you know, end of September, beginning of October of 1999. And I was, I didn't have my plans worked out yet. I said, I said yes, but I had no money to go to treatment. I had no wherewithal to do it. I had a dark night of the soul of trying to figure out if I should even be a doctor. And during all that time I was out of fentanyl and decided the last thing I was going to do was try and get more opiates. I knew that that would make things worse. I had a prescription pad. I could, you know, probably go on the run for a few days or a week or two, but that would have just been, you know, adding crimes to the thing and good chance of, good chance of something really bad happening. I knew that that was not the way.
- [27:36]
David Duchovny
And had you told your partner at this point?
- [27:39]
Dr. Jason Giles
Oh yeah, that was, that was an exciting conversation.
- [27:42]
David Duchovny
Poor.
- [27:42]
Dr. Jason Giles
The poor thing. Yeah. I said, there's something I have to tell you. And still, you know, 20, 27 years later, 25 and 26 years later, if I say those words in that order.
- [27:56]
David Duchovny
I have something to tell you.
- [27:57]
Dr. Jason Giles
That's piece of the PTSD comes back up. Yes.
- [27:59]
David Duchovny
For me it's. Whenever I hear my name, I think it's going to be bad. Like David.
- [28:06]
Dr. Jason Giles
Right here, my inflection at the end arising.
- [28:09]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [28:10]
Dr. Jason Giles
Something we have to talk about. So. Yeah. Anyhow, I, she knew what was going on. I mean, even more another deeper level of disappointment and let down and so forth for being, for being, appearing one way but being a different way. And so I detox at home. And home was the top of a delta flat in Sacramento with one little wall rattler air conditioner. It was still hot at that time of the year. And you know, lots of fentanyl and nothing. I mean, just the coldest of cold turkeys. It was me in a half filled hot water bathtub trying to get the chill off. And there's this instantaneous switch between being arctic cold to surface of the sun hot. And so I would stand up and stand in front of the fan and try and cool off. And there's a lot of that back and forth for a while until the chills died down. And.
- [29:17]
David Duchovny
That'S what you would describe as the. I mean, this is one of the things that, that I am interested in in terms of addiction to a drug, you know, because we try and split up the components of it between the physical addiction and the mental or spiritual addiction. At least I do. You know, I'm like, well, how many days before, if you're drinking every day, how many days before your body is okay? How many days of not drinking before you have that physical need? I guess it's not really something that we can quantify. But in your case, how many days was it before you were like, oh, my body isn't actually chemically fighting me.
- [30:02]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yeah, well, so mentally I was done. Mentally I was finished with it and as it turns out, never went back. And I think that's a huge piece of it, you know, why go through that misery if you're just going to go back and do it again? So I think that's, that's super torture if you're not finished, finished in, in your head physically. You know, I was basically awake for close to 10 days, 12 days, something like that of sleeping in 10 minutes, 10 minute stretches. And then I didn't really sleep through the night for another six months. I had sleep disturbance for about another profound insomnia is a better way to say it, for months. Thank God for video games because I played a lot of Max Pain during that time, which is an interesting game to play during all that time. And it helped take my mind off and give me something to do because.
- [30:58]
David Duchovny
A little problem to solve.
- [30:59]
Dr. Jason Giles
Well, I was also in detox from work.
- [31:02]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [31:02]
Dr. Jason Giles
So I, I mean I had my entire life full with work in the hospital and the, and all those dopamine hits and rewards and, and, and so forth and that was, that was all gone as well. So went through a lot of withdrawal in the fall of, fall of 99. And it, and it was, it was three months before I could get into the treatment center for a bunch of reasons. Timing and, and the board and economics was a piece of it. Fortunately, a guy, a guy I know lent me the down payment to go to rehab. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to go there.
- [31:35]
David Duchovny
So it seems like you checked in sober. You had the good luck of having some. Not mentors, but friends along the way that they could have been derailed in a much more spectacular and horrible fashion if you hadn't had that chairman if you hadn't had this guy. There's a certain sense, there's a certain certain sway of luck there.
- [31:56]
Dr. Jason Giles
I guess there's no other grace is probably the best, better way to say it. Yeah. Because it's nothing that I did, you know, nothing. Nothing that I. I didn't like, build up a bank of friendship and. And then I got to cash it in.
- [32:11]
David Duchovny
Well, I mean, I might, I might. I might argue with you on that because I might say that the chairman was the way he was because he saw something in you. The way you were reacting and your friend was the way he was or she was, because he or she saw something in you that was authentic.
- [32:26]
Dr. Jason Giles
Could be. Could be. I paid off. So I. I did all that stuff. I worked. I worked as a general doctor for a while, which is one of the best experiences. That sort of early get, get well job they call get well, get well. My get well job was Doc in the box, which is the, you know, the guy that does your school physical and your pink eye and that kind of stuff. And there I got in touch with why I wanted to do this job in the first place. You know, it wasn't liver transplants, although those are fun, but this, the simple, you know, stitches for a cut and sprained ankle and sore throats and new baby and those kinds of things. That's. That's how I got attracted to medicine in the first place. So it was like, I don't know, it's like that scene in the, in the superhero movies, only instead of after you're a superhero, you've got to go back and not be one. You've got to go back and, you know, stock the shelves and chop the wood and that kind of stuff.
- [33:22]
David Duchovny
And that's, that's what is your ego like at this point.
- [33:25]
Dr. Jason Giles
Grateful. I'm.
- [33:26]
David Duchovny
I'm really already there. There wasn't. There wasn't. There wasn't.
- [33:29]
Dr. Jason Giles
No. I had. No. At the, at the treatment center, I had. I had a spiritual awakening, as they say in the. In the recovery world. And that's where. Which is the gift of being wrong. That's. That's what I got. I got the. I got the gift of insight into being wrong. So we do these exercises in treatment. Pretty. They've gotten away from it a little bit, but they're still around where you do the steps. The steps. And they're. They're rubric for getting to know oneself and understanding oneself in the world. That's. That's all they are there's lots of them. There's.
- [34:00]
David Duchovny
You're not just talking about the 12 steps.
- [34:02]
Dr. Jason Giles
Well, in this particular case, in this specific treatment center, I'm talking about the 12 steps. But you can get there through celebrate recovery or the Dharma, or there's. There's. It's the same path. It's the same. It's the same way of self discovery. The 10 bulls, right? The Buddhist wood blocks, it's all the same. In this particular case, it was step two, which is phrased this way, which is we admitted. Came to believe that a power greater than us could restore us to sanity. Now that's like some lawyer ease right there, right? Came to believe that a power than ourselves could restore us to sanity. If you take that step, so to speak, or if you ingest that understanding and make it your own, you have to concede you're insane. Which is dramatic phrasing, but the truth is, thinking that I needed chemicals to be okay, that is insane. And I was just mistaken. All I was was wrong. It doesn't mean I'm wrong. It just means I was mistaken. And once that stone came out of the wall, the whole thing fell down. Because if I'm wrong about something that at one point, I was the most certain about anything I've ever been in my life, that I can make it as long as I have these chemicals to deal with, you know, something, Something to. Something to put between me and the world. If I'm wrong about that something that I was certain of, what else am I wrong about? Am I wrong about my traumatic childhood? Right. Am I wrong about my successes? Am I wrong about my role on Earth? I was wrong about most of it. And the gift of being wrong is that you can. Yeah, just. I just guessed wrong, that's all.
- [35:55]
David Duchovny
So what's missing from that that I like is a concept of shame, you know, which is something that I've dealt with when I've been wrong and something that I talk a lot about on the podcast. Here is the attendant shame that comes with the notion of failure.
- [36:16]
Dr. Jason Giles
Sure, sure.
- [36:17]
David Duchovny
You know, before you get to the enlightened position of at this point, we don't know, you know, that's fun for us to say. That's hard to live by in the fire.
- [36:27]
Dr. Jason Giles
Not so easy. Yeah, yeah.
- [36:29]
David Duchovny
So there was. How did you alleviate that? I'm going to assume that it was there. I'm going to assume that. That there was. That there were parts of you or moments in your day when you were like, oh, you know, I, I. Now those people are going to know that this happened. And, you know, I was this high flyer and now I up and. And, you know, I'm ashamed of myself, you know, even though I know I'm on the right track. And I know that those were all illusions of success in a way. But it's. It hurts. It's hurting me. My ego. My ego is hurt. My ego wants a little inflation.
- [37:08]
Dr. Jason Giles
It hurt. It hurt. The thing where it hurt me the most was. So I did the doc in the box. Totally fun. The board says, actually, you know what? You can. Because I wanted to go back to anesthesia. I wanted to finish.
- [37:20]
David Duchovny
You wanted to go back.
- [37:21]
Dr. Jason Giles
I did.
- [37:21]
David Duchovny
I wanted to go back. You as the classic definition of doing the same thing.
- [37:26]
Dr. Jason Giles
Of course. I mean, that's what, that's what everybody was worried about. That, that it was proximity, you know, was handling the substances and that it's the OR that got me intoxicated or gave me this problem. And I didn't believe any of that was true. And I was willing to bet my life on it. And, and many people were willing to let me do that. The chairman, top of the list. But the. But I wasn't just betting my own life. I was possibly betting somebody else's. Right. Because if it all went bad and I was messed up and I was taking care of somebody else, then I could maybe hurt them or kill them.
- [37:59]
David Duchovny
Sure.
- [37:59]
Dr. Jason Giles
And so that's where all the alarm was. Ultimately I went back and this is with monitoring and all kinds of accountability and safeguards and also several years at this point. I was three years sober before I went back to the or. So I'd had a lot of habit practice in living life without anything. But the part that hurt, the shame piece of it was the. All the chatter in the. In, you know, there he is.
- [38:26]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [38:26]
Dr. Jason Giles
He said, that's the guy. That's the. Remember, there's.
- [38:29]
David Duchovny
There goes junkie doctor.
- [38:30]
Dr. Jason Giles
There goes junkie doctor. Exactly. And that. And that was. That was. That was all right because I had, I had earned that. And that was on me. The part that was the hardest is that my, my wife worked in the same hospital. And so she dealt with all that. She dealt with all the gossip and the back talk and that sort of water cooler stuff, including from her surgery chairman who counseled her to dump me and run away. Yes.
- [39:02]
David Duchovny
Well, there you have a different chairman. You know, we talked about your heroic chairman. Now we have a different chairman.
- [39:06]
Dr. Jason Giles
I had a different chairman. She had a different chairman over there. But there was a lot of that going on. And so my action, besides scaring her and endangering somebody that she loves and cares about, which, of course, we don't think of when we're going through all this stuff, but I certainly realized it later. I also made it tougher for her professionally and made it worse for her at work because, you know, at that point when I first went back. Now, now, now nobody thinks about me, I'm sure. But. But I did ultimately not just finish the residency, but for many years I came back to the department and gave the talk on what to look for so that you can spot the next Jason running around the hallways who. Who might need help.
- [39:48]
David Duchovny
So I think success stories, just as a matter of curiosity.
- [39:53]
Dr. Jason Giles
Oh, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's. It's so. It's a. It's. It's all the things. It's overworking. It's taking extra cases. It's the. The superstar stud, standout.
- [40:02]
David Duchovny
So what you're looking for.
- [40:03]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yes.
- [40:04]
David Duchovny
To see the person who's really gonna up. Is the look at the. The successful people.
- [40:08]
Dr. Jason Giles
Is what we're looking for where we're hiding.
- [40:10]
David Duchovny
Yes, there's. Where the problem is.
- [40:14]
Dr. Jason Giles
Exactly. Or the people who. Who were. And then have. Something's gone wrong. Right. This. Hygiene or. Or tardiness where that wasn't the case or forgetfulness or so you know, starting to degrade. Acute performance degradation is one of. One of the hallmarks. Also used to be sharp, but now something's wrong.
- [40:33]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [40:33]
Dr. Jason Giles
And. Yeah, and the main thing was there's a. There's a. There's a, you know, omerta of silence in medicine. And maybe there isn't. Maybe there is in Hollywood too. You know, we found out with all the. The Weinstein stuff and all that. But there's a. There's a. You know, nobody wants to be the one that snitches. Nobody wants to be the one. Because if you get it wrong, maybe he's just going through a fight with his wife or something. And now you've so. And there's this reflexive. I don't want. I don't want people getting into my business, so I'm not gonna drop a dime on the.
- [41:06]
David Duchovny
Sure.
- [41:07]
Dr. Jason Giles
That's getting better. It's getting better. We don't tolerate the abusive surgeon anymore. We don't tolerate somebody smelling like alcohol anymore.
- [41:14]
David Duchovny
It's true. But I think there's still the sense of, you know, the goose that's laying the golden eggs.
- [41:21]
Dr. Jason Giles
That's definitely true.
- [41:22]
David Duchovny
So we got the superstar here. Let's not screw this up. You know, as long as he's still laying those golden eg. Not my business what he's doing or she's doing.
- [41:33]
Dr. Jason Giles
Exactly. The entourage problem, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I didn't have an. I didn't have an entourage, but it was a. The. The whole thing. And I don't talk about it very often, but the whole thing about, you.
- [41:47]
David Duchovny
Know, let me just say I. I really appreciate your candor, and it's powerful. Your story is powerful, and I appreciate your honesty and the articulation of it is stunning as well. So if you don't mind continuing, I would love to.
- [42:09]
Dr. Jason Giles
No. And then so I went back to the hospital, I did all those things and stayed sober. And the story went from this unfortunate soul up, you know, exhibit A went to. Wow. People can. It's a return to redemption story. And. And again, that's grace. I. I did. I did my part, which was to not drink or use. I did. I did my part, which was to show up, continue to work on self improvement. And then as things get better and my life got better and I had a son and. And. And then later a daughter, and. And this beautiful life materialized just from the simple act of, you know, what. What you have to do in order to. What I had to do in order to live life on the natch, as they say. Right. So without anything. I've never heard that on the natch natural. It's an old 40s term, 1940s. I'm bringing it. Bringing it back.
- [43:17]
David Duchovny
Well, we'll try. We'll try on the Natchez, on an edge.
- [43:21]
Dr. Jason Giles
To live that way, you got to ask for help, and you have to tell the truth and you have to show up and you have to be patient and not seek external validation that turns out to be. The root of the problem, is needing to be constantly reassured that I'm okay. I'm okay because I can save lives or I'm okay because I can go on the roof when the helicopter comes in for the Tron. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That. That is all. That's all ego. That's all. I don't feel. I don't feel enough, but I. I need to be reassured that I'm enough.
- [43:53]
David Duchovny
And you trace that. That's. This is the wound that you're talking about?
- [43:57]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yeah, yeah, this is. This is the wound I couldn't fix my dad. Right. I couldn't. I couldn't say. I couldn't say. As if that were my responsibility as a 5 year old.
- [44:05]
David Duchovny
Is it not? Is it not the human condition. Or is it, or is it certain people are wounded in this way more deeply than others.
- [44:14]
Dr. Jason Giles
I think it is a, I think it's a bell shaped curve. I think you'll meet, you'll meet some people and they're like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I have a great life, always have.
- [44:25]
David Duchovny
So, you know, those people do think you're just full of, you're not getting it yet. Or are you just one of the lucky ones?
- [44:32]
Dr. Jason Giles
I want to think that, but I think, I think, well, okay, lucky maybe lucky, maybe not.
- [44:36]
David Duchovny
At this point, we don't know.
- [44:37]
Dr. Jason Giles
We don't know. I mean, I, I have been in, in hell. I've been in the, at the, at the lowest points of low. And this morning looking at the buds on the trees and, and the birds jumping in them, it's, it has. And I don't know if there's a direct correlation, but I think that having seen the dark side, I appreciate the, the other side so much more.
- [45:11]
David Duchovny
I'm not big on trends, but I am big on clothes that feel good and last. That's why I have so much respect for quints and their high quality staples. Quince has the things you'll actually want to wear with summer on the horizon. Check out their organic cotton silk polos and European linen beach shorts to wear together or not. The colors, materials and styles make it easy to mix and match with your wardrobe or with other items from their collection. Another great thing is that all of Quince's products are half the cost of pieces from similar brands. How is that? Quince works directly with top artisans to cut out the middleman, which means you get luxury pieces without the markups. And you can feel good knowing they're only working with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. Personally, I am looking forward to wearing the cashmere hoodie that they're sending my way. And I have really enjoyed the long sleeved polo. I've gotten a lot of compliments on the polo shirt that I look pretty good in it. That's what they say. That's what the kids are saying. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from quince. Go to quince.comfailbetter for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com fail fail. Better to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com failbetter from the author of Fleischman Is in Trouble Long Island Compromise is an exhilarating novel about one American family and the dark moment that shatters their suburban paradise. Now in paperback for a perfectly portable read you won't be able to put down. As author Taffy Brodesser Achner writes of the protagonists, the Fletchers were not just rich, but extraordinarily absurdly, kidnappedly rich. What ensues is a drama filled story for the ages, tracing the entirety of one family's history. The novel spans decades and generations all the way to the present day and it confronts the mainstays of American Jewish life. There are themes of success, ambition and inheritance and even pyramid schemes, right wing capitalists and psychics, and at its core is the mostly unspoken love and shared experience that unite a family forever. Long Island Compromise has been named a Best book of the Year by numerous publications including the New York Times Book Review, Oprah Daily, the New Yorker, Time, and the Washington Post, to name just a few. Kirkus Reviews described Long Island Compromise as a great American Jewish novel and the Los Angeles Times ranks it among the pantheon of great American novels. Find it now in hardcover and paperback wherever books are sold.
- [47:59]
Nicole Norfleet
This episode of Fail Better is brought to you by booking.com booking yeah. From vacation rentals to hotels across the US, booking.com has the ideal summer stay for absolutely anyone, even those who might seem impossible to please. Imagine you're looking for yourself.
- [48:19]
David Duchovny
Easy.
- [48:20]
Nicole Norfleet
You're flexible, but have an eye for luxury. You've got plenty of paths to go down. Now imagine that you're also booking for your partner and your kids, who tend to be picky about comfort and can get very worked up about sharing spaces. And maybe you're also looking for an in law who rises earlier than the sun.
- [48:41]
David Duchovny
Well, never fear, you can find exactly.
- [48:45]
Nicole Norfleet
What you're booking for on booking.com and if you change your mind and decide you actually want something completely different, you.
- [48:52]
David Duchovny
Can find that too.
- [48:54]
Nicole Norfleet
All on booking.com with my cooking skills shaping up, I'm increasingly looking for a place to stay with a nice kitchen and believe me, there are some beautiful ones out there. The accommodations on booking.com really cover every possible feature you could think of and I know I'll find something that meets my standards every time I'm looking to kick back and cook up something nice. Find exactly what you're booking for. Booking.com booking yeah. Book today on the site or in the app.
- [49:47]
David Duchovny
We got to know each other when I came out of rehab for addictive behavior. Sexual addiction, and you were my friend at that point. I mean I we didn't we'd met before that, but we, we reunite. We reconnected. And I would just say this, that even though that addiction specialist would be how I thought of you, that's. That was your job. You never asked me for a penny. You never. You. You never. It was never. You were my friend who happened to be really knowledgeable in this field, that I was now looking at myself. And again, I'm still ambivalent about the whole idea of compulsive addictions and things like that. I don't know if addiction is the right word. And my stupid question to you would be, what is addiction? And I'm going to ask that at some point.
- [50:55]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yes.
- [50:55]
David Duchovny
But, you know, I'm ambivalent about all that. But what I'm not ambivalent about is that I had, like you, I had a hole inside or a sense of unworthiness or a sense of failure, let's say. In, in, in. In my case, as you say, you couldn't save your father, did you say? Or your mother.
- [51:19]
Dr. Jason Giles
Either.
- [51:20]
David Duchovny
Either. Well, I couldn't save my mother, I think is probably at the root of all my evil. And I had been like you. I had achieved success, which made me untouchable in a way, you know, or I was, I was a goose. I was laying golden eggs. So don't get in the way of his process. So that success for me enabled me to, to be an idiot, you know, and, and, and, and to do things that were destructive and self destructive. So I welcomed the window at that point because that's. It's. On some level, I knew that I was being inauthentic or dishonest. At the very least, I hate that I'm thanking you in front of other people right now, because that's what I hate about this world that we live in right now. I'm happy to be thanking you, but I'm, I'm mad at myself that I'm thanking you so that other people hear it, in a sense. So let me, let me get over that guilt.
- [52:31]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yeah.
- [52:31]
David Duchovny
You know, in terms of brand and shit like that.
- [52:34]
Dr. Jason Giles
I know, I hate that. I hate that too.
- [52:36]
David Duchovny
I hate it too. So let me say I'm going to thank you in private as well. But what I come back to is that fact. I mean, it's just that fact that you. It was never like, it was never a doctor patient relationship. It was a peer to peer relationship. There was no exchange of money. There was never even a discussion of that. And you kind of opened me up into this world of 12 steps and accountability, which I really appreciated and, you know, opened me up into a realm of knowing, or at least of admitting that you don't know, let's say, a realm of unknowing that I would never have wanted to be in. Like you, I wanted to know things. I wanted to master things. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I guess I wanted to say thank you.
- [53:35]
Dr. Jason Giles
Oh, yeah. And I'll say two things. One is, you're welcome and thank you. Back at you. The reason I did that with you, and it's. Do you want to know the answer in the back of the book about that? Because that was deliberate. That was deliberate. Back then, I had a feeling that that was the only way to reach you, that was the only way to get in, is to take all of the economic or all of the professional piece of it out of it. So I played a hunch.
- [54:06]
David Duchovny
Are you saying you knew I was cheap? Is that what you're saying right now?
- [54:08]
Dr. Jason Giles
No, I knew that was not it. No, that's not it. But I knew that you would. You would. It would be more. Just speaking plainly, it would be more difficult for you to defend against things I was reflecting back to you or things that I was saying or observations. And so I just decided that I made that decision because I didn't want you to miss out on the joys of this awesome experience for that. For something silly like that. Trivial like that.
- [54:43]
David Duchovny
Well.
- [54:43]
Dr. Jason Giles
And then we've gotten to do amazing things, you know, I mean, yeah, the friendship was not. Not a. It's not a construct in order to be able to get in. It was. It was true. And it remains, you know, well, this.
- [54:55]
David Duchovny
The struggle for me within the friendship. Friendship was always. And maybe this is a struggle within friendships in general and maybe marriages as well. But I was not eternally. I'm not eternally comfortable in the position of the one who knows less or friendship is hard to maintain with an expert and a novice, you know, and that's where we entered into our friendship in a way. And I, you know, and I hope we've been able to kind of, you know, equalize in some way, but that, you know, if you say you had a sense that money was the. Gonna be the problem. Yeah, possibly money makes it feel weird, but also there was, for me, because I have an ego. And let's go back to the ego. I can have a friendship with somebody who has expertise in this. In this thing that I don't have, but it can't stay that way. I Have to be able to equalize. And I think most friendships do in marriages as well.
- [56:08]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yeah, but you. But if you recall, you did. I mean, I had aspirations to tell stories in your field, and you mentored me in that. So you're the expert in that. And, and guided me through that and, And. And to success and. Scratch that itch. Helped me. Help me get to that. That thing. So I, I think we. We swapped. We'll say we, We. We bartered. Expertise in. In that. As far as the professional piece of it goes.
- [56:36]
David Duchovny
Well, what I. What I. What I would want to pivot to for the last part of this is your job now and addiction, the business of addiction, let's say that's. That. That's a crass way to put it. But it, But. But there is a big business out there, and it's kind of a wild west at this point. But I would like for you to talk to me a little bit about what you're doing now, what your business is now, and how you go about merging the business side with the service side. And I know that they're.
- [57:25]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yeah, that's tricky.
- [57:26]
David Duchovny
Yes, tricky, tricky.
- [57:28]
Dr. Jason Giles
So, yeah, it's not the Wild west of the Searchers of John Ford's the Searchers. It's more like the Wild west of Unforgiven or Tombstone. So there's a few buildings up now. Yeah, there's a saloon and a church and the courthouse. So I've been doing this job for 20 years in the addiction medicine field, and it used to be way wilder and way westier in terms of. It was only the downstream tenants and experience of the 12 step communities. It was hardly any science or medications or observations. I wrote an article today on my little fledgling substack account, which is about the mathematics of the timing and the intensity of interventions. Right. So we forget. We. Okay, get sober or get your habits under control or get away from the refrigerator and eat less. You get your weight where you want it, whatever that is. And we all have a tendency to drift back to the way we used to be. And that's human nature. But when you get maybe a text message, reminder or phone call or someone knocks on the door and says, hey, David, we're worried, David. Right. You know, some of this. And so. But there's a. There's a mathematical relationship between the intensity of an intervention and your. And it being annoying, sometimes they're perceived as annoying. So it's interesting stuff. I think the field has gotten more organized. In many states. We have gone through turmoil where there were Bad actors that were, you know, selling patients or fly by night floozy facilities that were not, not giving a square deal. So my experience that's mostly gotten better.
- [59:22]
David Duchovny
My experience of it being, you know, being processed through that system was. And this is not you, that they were charging a lot of money to basically use the concepts and the precepts of Alcoholics Anonymous, which are free.
- [59:43]
Dr. Jason Giles
Here's your $30,000 big book, right? Yeah, exactly. And I think that's what a lot of it was. And in the era when nothing works. So at least try this. I think the standards were, our expectations anyway, were so low that you might be able to get away with that. But we've learned a lot. We've learned a lot about what works. And we know that the longer you stay engaged in a treatment program. So that one that I was involved in when I went back in the beginning of these tales, that was a five year long program. The five year long physician's diversion or its addiction management program has a 90 or 95% success rate. So there is something that works. There is a gold standard, which is to stay connected with the process long enough to form new habits. Addiction and habits are the same thing. It's the same thing. You asked me about definition of addiction earlier. One of my favorite, I have many, but one of them is activity without progress. So we do a lot, but don't get anywhere. A lot of motion but not, not coordinated. And so the business is mature, the field.
- [61:00]
David Duchovny
I guess my pushback against that would be. That sounds a little capitalist American to me. Activity without progress seems like a Buddhist principle as well. That might be seen as a Koan as well. Like, oh, today was great. There was a lot of activity and no progress. Progress being this American capital capitalist kind of a virtue.
- [61:29]
Dr. Jason Giles
There's two ways to have no progress.
- [61:30]
David Duchovny
Yes.
- [61:32]
Dr. Jason Giles
So if you're trying, let's say you're trying to go south, you're on the globe and you're trying to go south. That's the direction you've identified that you want to go. The two places you can have no progress are everywhere on the globe. If you don't move. That's the obvious one. And at the South Pole. So the Buddhists have reached, the enlightened Buddhists have reached the South Pole. There's nowhere else to go for progress. But the rest of us are probably, yes, probably a ways off.
- [61:59]
David Duchovny
You know, one of the things that I push against in addiction speak is to call it a disease. And when I say it's not a disease, you know, the way I understand disease. And then they'll say, dis ease. But breaking that down is instructive to me because it's like, yes, it is a disease that makes us go out and do things either catastrophically bad or catastrophically good, you know?
- [62:29]
Dr. Jason Giles
Right.
- [62:30]
David Duchovny
And that's our. That's. The human condition is, I'm not quite content where I'm sitting right now. I'm gonna go do something. And my kind of, like, consternation in the face of. Of curing that disease is, how can you cure what it is to be human? You know? But I think, precisely, I think what you're saying is, okay, some humans are dealing with in a way that is more constructive, and some humans are dealing with more destructive. And then, of course, most humans are a mixture of the two. Yes. And what you're saying, you're lending out a hand to those who are in the destructive mode primarily.
- [63:15]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yes, yes, yes. Sometimes you don't realize that what you're doing. So everyone who comes into treatment has two problems. And I had two problems when I went in. One problem was the substances themselves, which had taken on a life of their own. And they were a problem, but they were a solution at one point. That thing that turned against me and turned into a problem was at one point a solution for how I felt. So if you get rid of the substances or you get rid of the habitual behavior, you get rid of the addictive process, whatever you want to say that is, you still have the person left who needed it, was motivated to move around or do something different or.
- [63:53]
David Duchovny
Had, you know, you know, it's what's underneath as. As you began this interview with what's. What's underneath the impulse to the behavior. But the other question, you know, because I worry about the children, all the children, and the addiction to the. To the phone, the dopamine, you know, reward system that is so entrapping of all our children at this point.
- [64:19]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yeah.
- [64:19]
David Duchovny
So difficult. And I think it's a whole. There's a whole new world out there of addiction to phones that is going to have to be addressed. I just feel like we're fucked. You know, like, how are we. How are we going to deal with this? For. For kids, you talk about a five year. The.
- [64:36]
Dr. Jason Giles
The.
- [64:36]
David Duchovny
The best stats that you have is somebody to go away for five years or somehow be in a program for five years. Do you start at the age of 13 for five years, or do you start at the age of 14 for five years? How are we going to get out of this or do we just throw up our hands and go, this is the way life is going to be from now on?
- [64:56]
Dr. Jason Giles
I think we need a global digital detox. I think we need to get away from. I'm interested in this thing. There's this device that is your phone will read it and it will unlock your phone. So if you, if you lock it from your apps, from your social media apps or whatever, whatever habitual thing you're doing. Yeah, you can leave this at home. And the only way to get at that stuff is when you come back and put this next to the phone. So it's the, it's the key. There's no, there's no code. You can, okay, I changed my, you know, whatever you hear on the other side of that door, don't open it. So you. It's a way, it's a way to modify your own, your own behavior.
- [65:39]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [65:40]
Dr. Jason Giles
That whole, the whole world of that stuff is interesting. There are, there are guys like me, so there are addiction experts at all of the social media companies that are, and the gambling companies and so forth that, you know this. Sports gambling, trying to figure out how to make their products even stickier. And, and what they're messing with is, is to, to bring it back to, to, you know, your field is they're messing with the, with our stories. So the best stories have mystery with opportunity. That's what, that's the best stories. Right? That's. And then, and then that's the, that's the hook. And so that, that's because in the world, when we're looking for food or shelter or safety or a mate or whatever, we're hooked by opportunity and mystery. But mystery is also scary and dangerous. So maybe that maybe this new post will be something that's totally awesome and I'll get likes and validation or maybe it'll be something bad. But either way I have to check. And the checking is the hook. And that's how we're built. That's why this is not. I mean, look, I'm not saying that somebody who had to have his heart valve replaced because of infection from heroin doesn't have a severe case of whatever you want to call that, but the shortcutting to relief by using substances or behaviors or the phones that we're all susceptible to, everyone's susceptible to it. So if it's a disease, everyone's got it because everyone has something that they over lean on for relief. Everyone does. So I don't think it's a distinction that's very Useful to say this person has a disease and this person doesn't because everybody is built. We're all wired up the same way to keep. Listen, if you didn't keep doing things the same thing, expecting a different result, you would never learn to walk.
- [67:47]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [67:48]
Dr. Jason Giles
So doing the things over and over again, expecting different results is also the key to success. It's the. It's right. Maybe next time I won't be so scared when I go on stage, or maybe the next time I'll be able to get the weight off the rack or whatever it is. We keep. We keep trying. That's how we get better. But also that can obviously become pathologic.
- [68:07]
David Duchovny
Yeah, well, I look forward to when you figure it out.
- [68:14]
Dr. Jason Giles
Yes, well, that's what you're going to see when you figure out the source. It's yourself, right? The good news is it's your fault, your life the way it is, it's your responsibility. And so my message fundamentally is take responsibility. So it doesn't matter what happened. It doesn't matter how you got here. It doesn't matter what your shame is or the mistakes that you made or the ways that you failed. The way out, the way forward is to take responsibility. I did this. This is me. I want to live a better way.
- [68:54]
David Duchovny
I want accountability. So I thank you for coming on and kind of skirting around, not skirting around, but allowing me to skirt around. These things that are interesting to me, but also, as I said in the middle of this being as full of candor and bravery and lack of shame, all these things that I think are exemplary. So, Jason, thank you for this and for also for being in my life.
- [69:26]
Dr. Jason Giles
My pleasure, David. Many years to come.
- [69:43]
David Duchovny
Shortly after concluding my discussion with Jason Giles, I texted him just to thank him for his candor and his honesty and, frankly, bravery for coming out and telling his story. And he texted back that he felt it brought us closer as friends, which I thought was true, but also very interesting in terms of, you know, what I'm doing with the podcast, you know, because it's not really. I don't think of it as something I do for myself or to make my life better. But that is sometimes the case, especially when I'm talking to friends or people that I've known for a long time, the podcasts I've done with Maggie Wheeler or Jason Begay, you know, people in that case that I've known for 50 years and that I get to know these people better or somehow share more honestly or tackle difficult subjects more bravely. That's the hope. Foreign thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like my thoughts on conversations with guests including Alec Baldwin and Rob Lowe. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's Lemonada Premium premium.com Failbetter is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Bracci and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Cross Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.
- [72:09]
Dr. Jason Giles
Foreign.
- [72:15]
Nicole Norfleet
This episode of Fail Better is brought to you by booking.com booking yeah. From vacation rentals to hotels across the US, booking.com has the ideal summer stay for absolutely anyone, even those who might seem impossible to please. Imagine you're looking for yourself.
- [72:35]
David Duchovny
Easy.
- [72:36]
Nicole Norfleet
You're flexible, but have an eye for luxury. You've got plenty of paths to go down. Now imagine that you're also booking for your partner and your kids, who tend to be picky about comfort and can get very worked up about sharing spaces. And maybe you're also looking for an in law who rises earlier than the sun. Well, never fear, you can find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com and if you change your mind and decide you actually want something completely different, you.
- [73:08]
David Duchovny
Can find that too.
- [73:10]
Nicole Norfleet
All on booking.com with my cooking skills shaping up, I'm increasingly looking for a place to stay with a nice kitchen and believe me, there are some beautiful ones out there. The accommodations on booking.com really cover every possible feature you could think of, and I know I'll find something that meets my standards every time I'm looking at kickbacks and cook up something nice. Find exactly what you're booking for booking.com, booking. Yeah, book today on the site or in the app.
- [73:49]
Dr. Jason Giles
Hey, I'm Nicole Norfleet.
- [73:50]
David Duchovny
And I'm Erin Brown and we work at the Minnesota Star Tribune and we've.
- [73:54]
Dr. Jason Giles
Got a brand new show called Worth It.
- [73:55]
David Duchovny
Every week we get together with a group of people who know Minnesota inside and out.
- [73:59]
Dr. Jason Giles
We skip the Minnesota nights and get right to the good stuff. We share the stories and the happenings around the state. Worth your time and your money.
- [74:08]
David Duchovny
Worth it from the Minnesota Star Tribune and Lemonada Media.
- [74:11]
Dr. Jason Giles
Every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.