Gene Simmons: The Demon Loves His Mom

Summary

Fail Better with David Duchovny

Episode: Gene Simmons: The Demon Loves His Mom

Release Date: September 9, 2025
Host: David Duchovny
Guest: Gene Simmons (KISS co-founder, "The Demon")

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Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging, revealing conversation between David Duchovny and Gene Simmons, the iconic co-founder of the band KISS. Duchovny probes Simmons on the show's central theme—failure—and how it intertwines with Gene's relentless drive, reinventions, and rock star persona. The discussion explores Simmons' immigrant roots, his entrepreneurial acumen, personal philosophy on success and criticism, the creation of KISS's legendary personas, and the deep influence of his mother, a Holocaust survivor, on his life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reinvention, Shark Mentality, and Early Band Days

• Reinvention and Survival: Duchovny opens by noting Simmons' constant reinvention, likening him to a shark that must keep moving to survive. Simmons jokes, "You mean did I want to wear more makeup and higher heels than your mommy because of a shark? No, because I wanted a lot of money and chicks." (02:22)
• Early Music and Gut Instinct: KISS's creative vision was intuitive, not planned. Simmons credits "singularity"—being in the right place at the right time—and following his gut for their success (02:58–04:11).
• Band as Equals: Inspired by The Beatles, KISS aimed for a band where “everybody in the band was a star.” Simmons explains: “A character is fake. A Persona is more... It's the same person, but with a different mindset.” (16:24)

2. Embracing (and Defining) Failure

• Leaving Wicked Lester: Despite having a record deal at 21, Simmons and Paul Stanley walked away from their band Wicked Lester because it didn’t align with their vision, buying back their own record for $44,000. “We killed it,” Simmons says bluntly of the split (05:57).
• Safety Net & Family: “We did what Jewish boys do. You live with your parents until you can afford to go otherwise. That’s how we know Jesus was Jewish. Right. He lived with his mother until he was 33 years old.” (06:36)
• Reinvention as Necessity: Recognizing they lacked “pretty boy good looks,” KISS crafted their personas and makeup to stand out. Simmons recalls shopping at Woolworths for their first stage makeup (09:27–14:04).

3. Comic Book Influences and Persona Creation

• Immigration and Assimilation: Simmons is an immigrant from Israel. He learned English through TV and comics, which deeply informed the KISS aesthetic (14:09).
• Mother’s Influence: His mother, a Holocaust survivor, is the emotional center of his life. “Just the best mom ever. I couldn’t have made it without my mom.” (15:10)
• From Characters to Personas: “The Personas, not characters, is fake. A Persona is more... what happens to a boxer... that Persona comes out. It’s the same person, but with a different mindset.” (16:24)

4. Business, Branding, and the Role of Money

• Music Business vs Music: “It was never called music. It was always called the music business. And if you don’t pay attention to the business, you will be asking the next person in line, would you like some fries with that?” (19:35)
• Wealth as Goal: Simmons asserts, “No, I always just wanted to make money. Because that’s pragmatism.” (20:06)
• On Criticism: “Money is the salve of everything... Lack of money and failure is the injury.” (46:52–47:12)

5. Iconic KISS Experience and Its Legacy

• The Live Show as Breakthrough: KISS’s pivotal moment was not a hit single but the explosive success of their live album (“Alive!”), the second-ever platinum record after “Hotel California.”
  “The live record was an experience of what it’s like to go to a KISS concert.” (34:46–36:59)
• Licensing and Merchandising: KISS became a $3–4 billion brand through relentless branding—everything from makeup trademarks to “KISS condoms and KISS caskets.” “We got you coming and we got you going.” (56:07)

6. Persona vs. Self and Emotional Armor

• Building the Armor: Simmons admits to constructing emotional armor to survive: “Created armor around me so that I wouldn't be hurt. Change my name, change my appearance, do whatever I have to do to survive and appear stronger and more successful than I am.” (27:02)
• Family as Softener: Despite this, his wife Shannon and his two kids taught him “how to love someone other than yourself.” (41:49–41:54)
• The Mother Shrine: His homes display shrines to his mother; she remained his guiding force and example of resilience (15:10, 43:29).

7. The Demon Persona: Jungian Shadows and Magnetism

• Origin and Fan Naming: The “Demon” persona was named by KISS fans, not the band.
• Psychopathology as Survival: Simmons believes we all have an “inner psychopath” for survival—his Demon is “a benevolent psychopath.” (50:14)
• Appeal to Outcasts: KISS provided refuge for marginal or judged fans, especially teenage boys, and by extension, drew interest from women: “Because teenage boys were attracted to that, straight women mostly were also attracted to that power and that thing.” (53:56)
• Persona as Liberation: He credits the Demon with expressing power men are often told to repress in contemporary culture.

8. Personal Philosophy on Criticism, Failure, and Self-Belief

• On Not Caring About Criticism: “What does that mean? Do I have my mother’s hips?” (46:32)
• Fuck Failure Attitude: Simmons dismisses lingering on past failures—just keep taking new shots: “Failure means nothing. You get up and try again.” (24:29, 50:49)
• Delusion as Power: “Be delusional about yourself. Be like me... who gives a fuck what anybody says about you? Everybody’s got an opinion.” (50:21)

9. KISS’s Next Frontier and Simmons’s Hustle

• The Enduring Brand: KISS is set for a new era, with a motion picture, avatars shows (immersive virtual concert experiences), new licensing, and merchandising. “There’s going to be cartoons and traveling KISS shows and all that.” (55:35)
• Gene as Operator: Simmons quips, “We were nuts. We wanted to increase the experience.” (31:51)

10. Memorable Banter & Self-Awareness

• Deadpan Play:
  • Duchovny: “My mouth barely moves when I talk. It’s called deadpan.” (57:14–57:48)
  • Simmons: “You barely move your mouth when you talk. I don’t know how you do that.” (57:39)

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Notable Quotes

• On Persona and Armor:

  “Created armor around me so that I wouldn't be hurt. Change my name, change my appearance, do whatever I have to do to survive and appear stronger and more successful than I am.”
  — Gene Simmons, 27:02

• On Failure and Delusion:

  “Be delusional about yourself. Be like me... who gives a fuck what anybody says about you? Everybody's got an opinion. Not everybody likes Jesus.”
  — Gene Simmons, 50:21

• On KISS’s Philosophical Roots:

  “The Personas, not characters…a Persona is what happens to a boxer, let’s say, out of the ring…when he gets into the ring, that Persona comes out. It’s the same person, but with a different mindset.”
  — Gene Simmons, 16:24

• On Family and Maternal Influence:

  “I couldn't have made it without my mom.”
  — Gene Simmons, 15:10
  “Shannon and your two kids... taught you how to love someone other than yourself.”
  — David Duchovny, 41:49–41:54

• On Money and Success:

  “Money is the salve of everything... Lack of money and failure is the injury.”
  — Gene Simmons, 46:52–47:12

• On Audience Refuge:

  “The KISS army... it’s a refuge for outcasts… for people who are actually on the margins.”
  — David Duchovny, 33:02

• On Show as Escape:

  “The experience and the electric church of it to make you forget about the traffic jam and the fact that your girlfriend’s screaming at you.”
  — Gene Simmons, 32:51

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:58 – 06:36: Early reinvention, leaving Wicked Lester, importance of gut
• 09:27 – 14:04: KISS makeup origins, comic book influence, Persona creation
• 15:10 – 16:24: Mother as influence, shrink-to-persona transition
• 19:35 – 20:12: Business over music, drive to make money
• 34:39 – 36:59: KISS’s breakthrough with the live album, platinum certification
• 43:29 – 45:37: Simmons’ mother, her survival, and his devotion
• 46:52 – 47:29: Gene on criticism, money as emotional salve
• 50:21 – 50:49: Delusion, fuck failure, advice to ignore critics
• 53:56 – 54:34: Why the Demon persona appeals, fanbase, naming
• 55:35 – 56:07: KISS's future: avatars, movies, cartoons, merchandising

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Memorable Moments

• Jewish Mother Humor:
  “That’s how we know Jesus was Jewish. Right. He lived with his mother until he was 33 years old.” — Gene Simmons, 06:36

• The Demon and the Teenage Audience:
  “Because teenage boys were attracted to that, straight women mostly were also attracted to that power and that thing.” — Gene Simmons, 54:09

• On Constructing Persona:
  “The fans … they started calling me the Demon, and they started calling Paul the Star Child.” — Gene Simmons, 54:36

• Branding, Condoms, and Caskets:
  “We’ve had KISS condoms and KISS caskets. We got you coming and we got you going. See what I did there?” — Gene Simmons, 56:07

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Tone

Gene Simmons is both grandiose and self-deprecating, mixing braggadocio (“I’m kind of a big deal”) with earnest vulnerability about his immigrant background and devotion to his mother. Duchovny keeps things wry and probing, often steering the conversation back to the theme of failure, and seeking emotional depth beneath Simmons’ armor. The dynamic is engaging, direct, and layered with humor, candor, and philosophical asides.

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Summary for New Listeners

This podcast episode offers an entertaining, surprisingly introspective journey into the mentality, myth, and humanity of Gene Simmons—a rock legend who has failed, reinvented, and armored himself through both business acumen and deep personal pain. If you've ever wondered how a poor immigrant from Israel became the mastermind behind one of rock’s most profitable brands, or why he doesn’t care what critics think, this episode covers it all—with KISS’s signature spectacle and a love letter to Simmons’ mother at its core.

Transcript

[Steve Burns]

Hey, it's me, Steve Burns. And I'm so glad you're here because you and I go way back, right?

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

And look at us now, like we're all grown up. We've got this new podcast where we talk about all this grown up stuff and there's special guests like Jamie Lee Curtis and Bill Nye, but for the most part, it's about you. I mean, it's always been about you. From Lemonada Media Alive with Steve burns is coming September 17th. Wherever you get your podcasts or you can watch every episode on YouTube.

[David Duchovny]

Foreign. Hey, just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of Fail Better Ad Free with Lemonade Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfuss, the Sarah Silverman podcast, and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show in Apple Podcasts make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better. A show where failure, not success, shapes who we are today. Gene Simmons is a Rock and Roll hall of Famer and legendary member of the band kiss. From stadium anthems to million dollar branding, they built one of the most loyal die hard fan bases called the KISS Army. You wanted the best, you got the best. Here's my conversation with Gene. Your reinvention is constant. You're like a shark. You keep moving. You've said that in one of your books, right?

[Gene Simmons]

Because people don't know that sharks. There are exceptions who stand still in the water, drown.

[David Duchovny]

Well, they sleep, you know, they sleep in areas where the water.

[Gene Simmons]

Where the water's going through their gills. That's right. Otherwise they drown. They have to keep pushing the oxygen in the water through their.

[David Duchovny]

Does this have any relevance to Yuri Inventions, this actual shark information?

[Gene Simmons]

You mean did I want to wear more makeup and higher heels than your mommy because of a shark? No, because I wanted a lot of money and chicks.

[David Duchovny]

Well, okay, so we'll get right into the makeup part of it. That was what is amazing to me, reading your stuff and thinking about when you guys hit, when Chris hit. You were so far ahead of any kind of recognition of marketing, branding.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, we didn't even know what that meant.

[David Duchovny]

No, but you intuited it somehow.

[Gene Simmons]

Intuitive.

[David Duchovny]

How did you do that?

[Gene Simmons]

There is such a Thing as a singularity which scientists talk about. Things just happen. And I'd like to take more credit. And so were the rest of the guys in the band. But there is such a thing as having the right thing accidentally at the right place and the right time. Given the following circumstances of this thing becoming a 3,4 billion dollar brand. Put this in the Renaissance, which is how you say that, or the 1800s. It just wouldn't work. The same thing at a different time. Or during the doo wop that I'm going, what is that? So we didn't know anything. There is such a thing as gut. And specifically the four knuckleheads that made up the band, Ace, Peter Paul and myself. Not everybody stood the test of time. Were Anglophiles we loved. Well, not Peter Chris so much, but certainly Ace Fraley and Paul and myself.

[David Duchovny]

The Beatles, right.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, the Beatles was the initial template of a band that we somehow knew we wanted to do. We couldn't shine their shoes, of course, where every single person in the band was a star. Everybody got to sing lead versus, let's say the Stones, where there's Jagger and that's sometimes Keith. Keith might come in for a song, but it's Jagger all the way, which is basically the way bands work. He's the lead singer, that's the guitar player. Never the two shall meet. But the Beatles was the exception to every rule. They were all stars. John, Paul, George, Ringo. Everybody knew them. You couldn't say Charlie Watts, Bill Weimar. No. And there was one singer, so somehow we knew intrinsically. Big word like gymnasium, don't you think?

[David Duchovny]

I like it.

[Gene Simmons]

Kind of a big word that everybody in the band should sing. Even though originally Ace Fraley did not want to sing and didn't write songs. We forced him. Oh, you got to go back, come up with some riffs. And then he did. And the first thing he came up with was about 80% of cold gin. I added a little bit something and then the song was finished. And we expected him to sing it, but he didn't want to sing. So the band was put together in a rat infested loft.

[David Duchovny]

But here, before we get there, you. Because, you know, nominally the subject of the podcast is failure in some way. Failure we like. Well, it's called fail better, you know. So there was a time. You're coming out of your first band. Wicked Lester, right?

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, Wicked Lester.

[David Duchovny]

So you're feeling it's not a failure.

[Gene Simmons]

We killed it.

[David Duchovny]

You killed the band?

[Gene Simmons]

Yes. We had a record contract. We recorded the album for Epic Records. And Paul and myself listened to it and said, this is not what we want to do.

[David Duchovny]

That's your gut again saying, this is not it.

[Gene Simmons]

That's right for people who have no experience and no resume and no expertise.

[David Duchovny]

But that's pretty ballsy to think about that because how old are you at that point?

[Gene Simmons]

21.

[David Duchovny]

You get a record deal, which is pretty phenomenal.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And then you say no. So where do you get the balls and the gut to do that at that point? To tank wicked less.

[Gene Simmons]

It helped that I had a safety net. Both Paul and I, coincidentally, happened to be Jews. And so we did what Jewish boys do. You live with your parents until you can afford to go otherwise. That's how we know Jesus was Jewish. Right. He lived with his mother until he was 33 years old. Yeah. And he knew his mother was a virgin, of course, and she believed he was God. Then he went into his father's business.

[David Duchovny]

That's true. It's all true.

[Gene Simmons]

So we had the safety net of, you know, there are no expenses. We're not married. I couldn't even drive until I was 34. So there were no expenses. So then you reach into your gut, it's like, what is that thing we're looking for? And so we literally walked out of our contract of Epic Records and bought back the record for $44,000.

[David Duchovny]

In those days, I'm just floored by that. I'm just floored by that. A 21 year old doing that.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, I think in some way a lot of the actors that come into LA from Sandusky or someplace else throw caution to the wind, break up marriages, leave home, run away and they just, you know, they come to, you know, Oz. They want the glitter, the glamour, the thing. And it doesn't make any sense, but to be an actor.

[David Duchovny]

No, no. I get the dream of wanting to be a rock and roll star, but.

[Gene Simmons]

I mean, throw caution to the wind because you can't depend on it. You get a gig and you get some money and then where's the next one?

[David Duchovny]

So at that point, was it just what you were hearing or was it what you were seeing? That wasn't right?

[Gene Simmons]

We didn't like what we heard when we listened back to that mastered first album, Wicked Lester. We listened, but it sounded like Three Dog Night and which was fine, but it wasn't cool. You didn't care who was in the band or Doobie Brothers, you know, some really fine songs, but other than Pat Simmons, you didn't know who was in the band. You know, they were not stars. You know, the. The English gave us Led Zeppelin. We gave them the Grateful Dead. It's just not the same thing. It didn't have the swagger and the glamour of the English bands, and we wanted that to be. And we quickly figured out we can't be that because we didn't have pretty boy good looks other than Paul. And so we had to reinvent ourselves and that. I'll never forget that day. We didn't know what we were doing. It's like kids in mud, you know, or just throw stuff out. And somehow all four of us went down to Woolworth.

[David Duchovny]

Would you say somehow all four of us? You must have all decided, okay, we're gonna wear makeup. There's the New York Dolls. There's a scene where rock and roll. Glitter wearing.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, but chick makeup. It was androgyny, right? It was Bowie and New York Dolls.

[David Duchovny]

And what year is this?

[Gene Simmons]

1804, I think. 1973.

[David Duchovny]

Okay, so it's Bowie, it's New York, New York. You're in New York, right?

[Gene Simmons]

Glitter scene. Yeah. Okay, but I'm six two and those guys were like little boys. So we were not convincing wearing makeup.

[David Duchovny]

Had you tried that look and performance.

[Gene Simmons]

For a photo shoot or two as wicked Lester? And it was pathetic. You just looked like football players in tutus. And quickly got rid of that. And somehow, instinctively, we knew what it shouldn't be, even though we didn't know what it should be. But you know it when you see it and you know it when you hear it kind of a thing. And when we went down, one of us, I don't know who it was, might have been me or somebody else, said, let's go down to Woolworths. Let's buy some makeup. You know, like it was Halloween, I think. So we went down there and right alongside the little plastic things that look like ice cubes with flies in it that you put into trays or whoopee cushions.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

Put on under the seat of somebody's mother who.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, Love that. I used to buy my singles at Woolworths, my music singles. They would have that. Everything top 50 just laid out in front of you. And I couldn't afford to buy the album. And when you're a kid, you only want the hits anyway.

[Gene Simmons]

That's it.

[David Duchovny]

You don't want the rest of the album. So I used to go to woolworths and get those 45.

[Gene Simmons]

I'm curious, what was the first single you bought? Or some of the early ones.

[David Duchovny]

Some of the early ones were Grazing in the Grass.

[Gene Simmons]

Hold on. That's Yuma Sakela.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, he did a cover of it, but I think it was called the New Edition or something like that.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, maybe. Oh, you mean the, the song version that came many years later.

[David Duchovny]

Okay.

[Gene Simmons]

The original was.

[David Duchovny]

Great song. I, I, I bought.

[Gene Simmons]

Reason I'm asking you this is because I'm going to show you. Go ahead.

[David Duchovny]

What else? Still got it. A novelty song maybe by Melon Tim, called Backfield in Motion.

[Gene Simmons]

Backfield in Motion, baby. They gonna break the rules.

[David Duchovny]

That's right. Okay. And I bought Sugar Sugar.

[Gene Simmons]

The Archies by the Archies. That was one guy named Ron Dante who played co, wrote the song and played almost all the instruments on that.

[David Duchovny]

Really?

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Okay. I think I bought thank you by Sly. Thank you for letting me.

[Gene Simmons]

That's great.

[David Duchovny]

Sly.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, that's. He used to be a dj.

[David Duchovny]

Yes. In San Francisco.

[Gene Simmons]

In San Francisco. And he also produced. He produced the Bo Brummels.

[David Duchovny]

Right, right.

[Gene Simmons]

Who had two hit singles. I can't say. Yes, I know. You know I. Cause I try just a little. Cause I could do so try just a little Cuz I feel Go away.

[David Duchovny]

I don't know that one.

[Gene Simmons]

The other one was yes.

[David Duchovny]

So I remember, so you remember that, that setup. So you're at Woolworths, you're going to the makeup aisle or whatever, it's Halloween.

[Gene Simmons]

And there was Stein's clown white, which was just a metallic tin. And you reach in, it's goopy, it's white, and you put it on your face. And there was Stein's black stick, which was literally a stick of black thing. And I guess clowns used to put it around the eyes and smeared and everything. We didn't know anything. And bought some pencil outliner pencils, I guess, for your. Under the eyes, whatever chicks do, you know, that thing. So we brought the makeup and everything and bought two four and a half foot tall mirrors for 15 bucks. And they were longer and sort of thin on the side. So soon as you leaned it against the wall, they warped a little bit so it looked like a freak house.

[David Duchovny]

Fun house.

[Gene Simmons]

Your nose gets bigger. And all I remember is all four of us starting putting the slop on our faces. And what we came out with was pretty much what became the maker.

[David Duchovny]

Really.

[Gene Simmons]

It was close. Yes. It's one of those things that just happens.

[David Duchovny]

It is one of those things. But what I think a lot of people don't know and what you haven't prefaced this with, because I haven't asked you, but you're an Immigrant from Israel. And you came to the States when you were 7, and you basically learned how to speak English by watching cartoons and reading comics.

[Gene Simmons]

Television.

[David Duchovny]

Television.

[Gene Simmons]

Television.

[David Duchovny]

And you loved comic books.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And you drew comic books.

[Gene Simmons]

I did. Created my own characters.

[David Duchovny]

So to get to this point, all that stuff is in you. It makes that moment seem less surprising than it might of just you finding.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, hindsight's 20 20. You can see the puzzle pieces go together. But when I first came to America, from my perspective, I was actually eight and a half years of age, but with my mother, because my father sadly walked out on the family, which is not a unique story. Many people have homes without a father, shamefully.

[David Duchovny]

And your mother is a Holocaust survivor. Yes.

[Gene Simmons]

She was 14 years of age in the concentration camps of Nazi Germany. Yeah. And live to be 94 years of age. Just the best mom ever. I couldn't have made it without my mom. You should see my place. It's got photos all over.

[David Duchovny]

Anyway, at your home, you have a shrine to your home.

[Gene Simmons]

I have a few homes, David.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I'm sure you do.

[Gene Simmons]

I'm kind of a big deal.

[David Duchovny]

You're a huge deal, sir.

[Gene Simmons]

But I digress.

[David Duchovny]

No, the gold is in the digressions, by the way.

[Gene Simmons]

The goal is in the digression. That's kind of a good headline. I like that. I remember we were looking at each other as the makeup kind of went on, and nobody said, here, do this, do that. Everybody drew their own makeup. Kind of sloppy, but, you know, you look at it and you go, that's a thing. I don't know what it is, but that's a thing. But most importantly, we started writing the songs that would become the staple to those characters.

[David Duchovny]

What you saw inspired the sound. That's very interesting, isn't it?

[Gene Simmons]

The Personas, not characters, is fake. A Persona is more. I guess it's the difference between method acting and just saying the lines and getting the check. I'm making it up. But a character is, like, fake. And a Persona is what happens to a boxer, let's say, is out of the ring having milk and cookies with his daughter backstage. Then when he gets into the ring, that Persona comes out, right? It's the same person, but with a different mindset.

[David Duchovny]

It's an aspect of you. An alter ego, in a way.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

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[Hasan Minhaj]

Minhaj, and I have been lying to you. I only pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are way too afraid to ask. People like Senator Elizabeth Warren, is America too dumb for democracy?

[Dr. Susan Swick]

Outrageous.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Parenting expert Dr. Becky how do you skip consequences without raising a psychopath?

[Gene Simmons]

That's a good question.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Listen to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know from Lemonada Media. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Gene Simmons]

I'm beginning.

[David Duchovny]

To understand why Kiss is worth as much as it is.

[Gene Simmons]

David it was never called music. It was always called the music business. And if you don't pay attention to the business, you will be asking the next person in line, would you like some fries with that? It's a business. Yes, there's creativity and inspiration, but inspiration is highly overrated.

[David Duchovny]

But did you love you loved music, though.

[Gene Simmons]

Wasn't just with a passion, but I'm a pragmatist above and beyond.

[David Duchovny]

When you first fell in love with music, though, you didn't think, this is the way I'm gonna be making money?

[Gene Simmons]

No, no, I always just wanted to make money. Because that's pragmatism.

[David Duchovny]

Well, also, you had nothing.

[Gene Simmons]

Had nothing. And the first music I heard, we came here in 1958. First music I heard even before I could speak English, we didn't have a radio when we landed in America. I couldn't believe this box. You had all these stations. And I constantly changed. I heard Chuck Berry, Little Richard and, you know, all that. Ironically, I was the only person of note who did a eulogy at Chuck's funeral.

[David Duchovny]

Really?

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah. The family asked me to get up there and I thought, what a strange life is. So strange that an eight and a half year old boy from Israel comes to America and here's, you know, roll over Beethoven and doesn't understand the words and just starts moving. Because the music made you move. I didn't know how to dance or anything, but just, you know, the lower reaches of your body started to, you know, move in the way that white music didn't, you know, like white music, you know. And then you hear this, kind of the shoulders. Yes. You know, and of course they go bad. No Dada boom. You know, white people slap clap on the one.

[David Duchovny]

On the one.

[Gene Simmons]

I don't know how to explain this to people, but, like, you ain't nothing but a hound dog. That's what you're supposed to do. That's not what white people do. They go, you ain't nothing but a hound dog. On the opposite thing. The corn with a square. At any rate, by the way, written by Jews. Libra Stoller.

[David Duchovny]

I believe you.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah. Fever under the Boardwalk on Broadway. Libra Stoller.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

As a matter of fact, I used to go to Elaine's. I'm sure, you know, that place was. It's a kind of a watering hole way uptown in New York. And I'm sitting there having dinner with some people, producers or whoever. And next to me is Lieber from Lieber and Stoller, the guys that wrote all that stuff. And I started talking about music and I realized, wow. So I turned. I'm such a big fan. You don't understand that. Your music changed my life and everything. He goes, hey, let's write a song together. I go, what? What? He goes, you have any idea? We're sitting next to each other. I said, an idea.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

Animal. Let's write a song called Animal. I don't know why I said that. He goes, that's great. You bring out the animal and me. He started talking about, that's good, that's good. Love is one thing, but you bring out the animal. And he started riffing on the animal. Should it be there? But I can see care there. Care. He started mapping.

[David Duchovny]

He's the lyricist. He's the lyricist.

[Gene Simmons]

They both toyed around with the thing. Yeah, okay. Like Lenon and McCartney. You just. They just came up with it and. But really on a high level. The Coasters, Charlie Brown, you know, Love Potion.

[David Duchovny]

What happened with Animal? Did you finish it?

[Gene Simmons]

He passed away. We didn't get a chance to do it. Shortly thereafter, he passed. That would have been thrill of a lifetime. But it happened to me again. When we were at the old house on Benedict Canyon in Beverly Hills. All kinds of knuckleheads would come over to say hello, or we'd try to do business. You know, all kinds of people. My daughter finally put a T shirt says, I've been to the house. Because when the kids were younger, Sophie, my little girl, said, oh, I love Spice Girls. I go, which Spice Girl do you like? Oh, Mel B. Oh, she was at the house. She was at the house? Yeah. You were too young. She said, hello. And Nick started to love Bob Dylan. And I'm going, bob Dylan? You like him? Oh, those. Dad, you know, those lyrics. I go, well, he was at the house. What? Yeah. He picked you up and everything. So I thought, oh, my son loves Bob Dylan. I'm gonna call him up and try to get him to write a song with me. You know, delusional. But I've always been that way. Just dive into the deep end. What could happen?

[David Duchovny]

Well, you say. You often say it's interesting. You say you're delusional, but you're aware of it, which is an odd state.

[Gene Simmons]

Of mind to try to comprehend delusional about yourself. Because, pal, the mountain ain't coming to you, Muhammad. You gotta go to it. Whatever. And failure means nothing. You get up and try again.

[David Duchovny]

You don't see failure as something to learn from. Just let it go.

[Gene Simmons]

Just delusionally. I called Bob's management, guy named Kramer. Hi, it's Gene Simmons. Oh, hi, Gene. What do you. What's up? What do you want? I want to write a song with Bob. Well, you know that's not gonna happen. That's Bob Dylan and all that. But sure enough, Bob came over to my place within two days, bless him, in a white unmarked van. And we started strumming and humming and came up with a few tunes that were.

[David Duchovny]

Did you record them?

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, yeah, yeah. One was called Waiting for the Morning Light. You can Google and schmoogle and press all the other buttons that torture me.

[David Duchovny]

You know, There's a couple of songs you've done outside of Kiss that I think are lyrically probably more revealing for you, that it's like Mr. Make Believe or Man of a Thousand Faces, you know? And do you. Do you feel like you put more of the non Persona.

[Gene Simmons]

Non kiss.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, the non Persona. I'm talking about the demon. Whatever. That I'd love to talk about at some point as well. But do you feel like that was a dropping of the mask or is that just putting on another mask?

[Gene Simmons]

Peek.

[David Duchovny]

Under the mask.

[Gene Simmons]

You have to take into consideration strippers don't walk out naked. You gotta peel, peel. You gotta take the audience with you so that at the end.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, now, this is very interesting just to sidetrack. You're aware that the culture has moved past or regressed or however you wanna put it, that you saying something like that is going to push people away in a way, you know, but you stick to your guns in a way that I appreciate. You have not changed the way you tell stories or the way you present yourself, even if it's a kind of a mask, even though you're aware that it's. That it sits in a different space these days.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, you get one shot at this. And the Greeks probably had the right idea. To thine own self be true. Okay, do what you do or do what Popeye does. I am what I am, and that's all that I am. I'm Papa. That's with the mistakes and everything else. You know, poor Ozzie passed away.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

And that was heartbreaking because I knew him for decades and decades. And there was a unique. There was a unique human being, a giant who, no matter what anybody said, was always Ozzy and treated you and the next door neighbor exactly the same. Hey, how are you? Nice to see you. No airs about him. No anything. And it's a good lesson for idiots like me who sometimes, guilty as charged, get full of themselves and say, wow, I'm Gene. Kind of Gene Simmons. And if you would have met Ozzie, you're on your best behavior. You try to. Because it was a big deal. Hey, how are you? Nice to see you. You know, I just bought Vermont. Those sorts of stupid things, which are just meant to impress. Not about that at all. Just, hey, how are the kids? So it is humbling for someone like me who based my life on creating armor around me so that I wouldn't be hurt. You know, sort of change my name, change my appearance, do whatever I have to do to survive and appear stronger and more successful than I am. People think I'm much richer than I actually am. I mean, I've done okay, but. Oh, you must have billions. No, I don't. It's just that thing. And I like that thing because it tends. It means you might not be Hurt as much because there are a lot of people who are out to get you because they have empty lives. I don't know why, but humbling, it's important for people like yours truly. You don't seem to have that malady.

[David Duchovny]

Humility though. Maybe not humbling, but humility, I think.

[Gene Simmons]

Is what you're talking about. It is important to meet somebody like Ozzie who is just himself. Whether now, of course, when he gets up on stage, it's more like. More like scream therapy. You get out there and it's just all energy coming. But strangely, the real Ozzy is supposed to be the prince of darkness. And yet in the shows he blows kisses to the fans and goes, I love you. If you were the prince of darkness, that's like anti. That's kind of like a good guy, right? He was a giant.

[David Duchovny]

So in these songs that I reference, you consider that a peak at more. And are you still writing music? Is this the direction that you go? More self revelatory or confession?

[Gene Simmons]

Well, there's less. After 50 plus years, there's less time to sit there and come up with riffs in writing. I do write.

[David Duchovny]

What do you mean there's less time?

[Gene Simmons]

Well, Kiss was sold to Pophouse. The makeup and the underlying rights and all that for. And so now Pop House, which is a great company, are doing just unbelievable things. They're investing just truckloads of money into doing the Kiss Avatars show, which is like state of the art, something people won't believe.

[David Duchovny]

It's kind of like Beatlemania.

[Gene Simmons]

No, it'll be like an Alice in Wonderland journey. But you've had virtual glasses on, have you not?

[David Duchovny]

I have not.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, you should try it. You put the glasses on and reality as you know it disappears. Anywhere you look is not where you are. You're like that and you're in a different reality. So much so that you think you're going to go swimming, jump into the water and you'll run headlong into that because you believe you're there. And you look down on the floor and there's dinosaurs and snakes. You know, whatever's going on. Now imagine that without glasses. It's crazy what the technology is doing. So this is going to be kind of a. I'm trying to not use too many words to describe it because suffice it to say that when people see this, it's going to be an experience. Not see, because you'll.

[David Duchovny]

It'll be like going to a Kiss concert back in the day.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, it wasn't too long Ago, we. No, way more. Because at the event, you'd look down and you'd see the person next to you as you're standing on your chair and everything. You were aware. So there was this spectacle there, and you were aware of this. This is more like virtual reality where you're. It's going to be all inside the scene.

[David Duchovny]

You're inside it.

[Gene Simmons]

Even if you go to see a 3D, and we did a 3D concert at Dodger Stadium, you put on your glasses so when I spit fire, you could be in the back and you'd see the flames coming towards you, which cost a fortune. You know, back then, 2000, no other band was doing that. We were nuts. We wanted to increase the experience.

[David Duchovny]

Well, here's what I found really kind of interesting, because you've been talking about, like, your first exposure to American music, how it made you feel, how black music, Black music, how it made you feel and move. And then, you know, you famously don't give a fuck what the critics have said about you, because you've said it's not necessarily about the music for you, but it's about giving them that feeling. Giving the fans the feeling that you had when you first heard the music.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes, that's right. Even if you didn't understand the words, it is about feeling.

[David Duchovny]

That's what Kiss was always about. That's what your music career was always about.

[Gene Simmons]

That's right. The experience and the electric church of it to make you forget about the traffic jam and the fact that your girlfriend's screaming at you.

[David Duchovny]

Those are, like, everyday concerns. But you've also said that the Kiss army or whatever, it's a refuge for outcasts. Which takes me back to your childhood as well. So it's not just, forget your daily cares. It's like we're going for people who are actually on the margins, certainly who.

[Gene Simmons]

Don'T feel part of the mainstream. And secretly, even people who consider themselves part of the mainstream don't like it when people judge them. You know, the. Oh, my God, if you're a young female, if you're not wearing Kylie Jenner's lip gloss the right way or so God knows what else you know, you get, oh, that's a wonderful outfit for last year. You know, all that stuff. And guys, too. If you're not a jock, if you're not this or whatever those pings I get.

[David Duchovny]

You'Re a popular guy.

[Gene Simmons]

I was about to say I'm kind of a big deal. Yeah, I was afraid when I pulled up, you'd think I was Richard Simmons. See, that joke only works with older.

[David Duchovny]

Older white men.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. So this is. That's very interesting to me, Gene, because, um, you're talking about giving a feeling to your fans.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, music is easy because you can name.

[David Duchovny]

You realized also early, like you said, we were limited musically.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

You weren't the Beatles. Nobody is. But you had the wherewithal to say, we are not gonna do it just with the music. We have got to give people an experience.

[Gene Simmons]

That's right.

[David Duchovny]

And continue to give them this experience. And you did not hit it as a ban until you came out with a live album.

[Gene Simmons]

That's right.

[David Duchovny]

Which is really. It's unprecedented.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, we didn't. Not only was it unprecedented, it was the last thing you would do in those days. You put out a live record when your career was over and it would have your greatest hits and you would play Las Vegas. That was.

[David Duchovny]

Or if you had a record company, an album. Right. You'd give them a live album. Like get your Y or something like that.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, that was even before that. Well, that was original material or some of it. But anyway, the point was, you didn't do a live record before. But we didn't write hit singles. We didn't write singles. La di da that mom would like. We just turned the guitars up and wrote the songs we liked. So the live record was an experience of what it's like to go to a KISS concert. And it was a double album. And strangely, it became the second platinum record of all time. Platinum records came in to the RIAA Recording Industry Association, New Year's Eve 75, 76. It was to celebrate albums that sold at least a million copies. Up until then, a gold record meant you sold a million dollars worth of records, which at $3.33 per record was about 300,000 records. So if you sold 300,000, that was a gold record. You got a gold record. But we were selling millions. We were outselling the Stones and all kinds of stuff. So capital. And a big band at the time was Grand Funk Railroad for about two years.

[David Duchovny]

American Band was their single.

[Gene Simmons]

Huge.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

And so Capitol Records, which had the band, sent out platinum records as a promotion for their new album to the critics. Well, platinum records got a hold. People liked the idea because more and more records were selling a million or more. So they gave it out. So the first platinum record was Hotel California.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

The second one, a few hours later was our live one.

[David Duchovny]

Really?

[Gene Simmons]

Which was a double album.

[David Duchovny]

Yep.

[Gene Simmons]

I win.

[David Duchovny]

But that became the key to your longevity was the Live experience. To translate.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, the live experience. I mean, there are other pieces of the puzzle. We were doing licensing and merchandising.

[David Duchovny]

You were doing that. That seems like.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, it's too easy to say me, me, me. It really.

[David Duchovny]

It's not hard for me to say you, you, you, though. And it's. I think that's probably. Or there was Bill o'. Coyne, was it. He was kind of in.

[Gene Simmons]

Bill Okoin was the manager who had never managed. And we were a band with no experience. You know, we were the blind leading the blind. But he had a television experience, and he had a great point of view of the glamour stars of yesteryear. He said, you never saw Marilyn Monroe.

[David Duchovny]

Without her makeup on.

[Gene Simmons]

Without her makeup on. And that's where the idea of, you know, you're wearing makeup and everything. We can't show what your real faces look like. Preserve the magic.

[David Duchovny]

How did you feel about that?

[Gene Simmons]

We didn't know anything. We just said, oh, okay, that's what you're supposed to do. And it became such a thing that the Library of Congress allowed us to trademark our faces. Which you couldn't do. I mean, you could have a face mask that looks like Johnny Carson and he wouldn't get a penny. You put out stuff with kisses things, and we take your first child.

[David Duchovny]

But at the height of your popularity.

[Gene Simmons]

Of Kiss you, we make more now than ever. But I understand what you mean.

[David Duchovny]

I just mean in terms of, like, in the. In the. In the culture.

[Gene Simmons]

The cultural thing. Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Could you have walked down the street and nobody would know that you were Gene Simmons?

[Gene Simmons]

If I would have cut my hair all the way or tied it back, and I often do. I wear, like, a baseball cap and everything. It's less. Less of a thing. But in those days and even today, if I tease it up and everything or wear snakeskin boots in a big cod piece, then, yes, for lunch, in case you get a hunger, then people go, oh, that. You put one and one together. But until we had a reality show called Gene Simmons Family Jewels, 167 episodes, eight seasons. And it was.

[David Duchovny]

You're an excellent hype man. You are just an excellent hype man.

[Gene Simmons]

So that sort of made it more thing, but I was never looking for that. You know, I was always pragmatic in the sense that I wanted to be rich first and then famous.

[David Duchovny]

Well, this gets to an interesting point. I want to talk about two things before we finish. One is, who is the demon? And what kind of backstory did you ever make up for that? And that Kind of stuff. And were you thinking of the Jewish superheroes that came before you? And then also, when you talk about parenting in your power book, you say you're kind of going against the trend of these days, which is it's all about relational bullshit. Okay, well, that's. Yes. So you're saying the.

[Gene Simmons]

Your parents, especially your father, should not be your friend.

[David Duchovny]

Not be your friend, but also that your number one job as a father is to go out and make them financially secure.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes. You have my time. I can't give birth, but I can protect my family. And most importantly, I'm the provider.

[Dr. Susan Swick]

There's so much advice out there, and all we want to do as parents is get it right. The great news is you're the expert on your child, and sometimes figuring out what they need is as simple as getting them to talk. I'm Dr. Susan Swick, a child and adolescent psychiatrist, and I'm also a mother of four. On my new podcast, Talk About Able, I'll hear from parents about what's keeping them up at night, and we'll figure out how to tackle it by talking about it from Lemonada Media. Talk about able is at September 9th. Follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Duchovny]

But you did say in this book, in the beginning of this book, you dedicated to your wife, who you married after 29 years of being with her.

[Gene Simmons]

Shannon.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, Shannon. And your two kids, because they taught you how to love someone other than yourself.

[Gene Simmons]

That's right.

[David Duchovny]

So what is. I've heard all of what you said, and I get it. I get it. And you've also said that people mistake your enthusiasm for arrogance, which I think is very interesting.

[Gene Simmons]

Not everybody likes Jesus either. And that's life. As long as you like yourself.

[David Duchovny]

What did you mean by that?

[Gene Simmons]

Well, I. Inscription. My father walked out on us. See, I was going to say me, but can't even get close to that. My father walked out when I was about six and a half years old, and my poor mother had to raise me and be the breadwinner and all that, and worked six days a week, seven in the morning till seven at night. Yeah. And all her life. And as soon as I had some money, I made sure she never had to lift a finger, had somebody wait on her hand and foot, bought her houses, whatever she wanted, and she never wanted anything. And I just want to give you quick stories. I'd fly her out to la, you know, to come visit and everything. Refused to fly. First class. Refused. They have seats back there. You can save $2,000 or whatever it Was that mom? Fly first class. I can buy the plane if you want. Fly first class? No. And then she came in. She stayed in the guest house, which was like this wooden shack before then. She go to their grocery store and buy cottage cheese, Wonder bread and what she calls tuna fish. A Hungarian accent. And potato chips. She liked potato chips. And that's what she would eat, you know, Shannon would cook up, you know.

[David Duchovny]

And she lived to be how old?

[Gene Simmons]

94.

[David Duchovny]

Tuna fish and potato chips. There you go. Richard Simmons.

[Gene Simmons]

Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Stupid. And always had a shapely figure. Never had an extra pound. But so you can be smart. You can learn smarts. You can learn information. You cannot learn wisdom. Wisdom is the ability to see the 30,000 foot viewpoint of life as we know it on the third planet from the sun. About what's important and how you live. If you have life, especially in Western society, every day above ground is a good day. That's not verbatim, but in Hungarian translated to English was what my mother used to say. From her perspective, being a concentration camp survivor at 14 years of age and seeing our whole family tortured and wiped out. I know what she means from her point of view. So I know for a fact I never got high. Literally, in a dentist's chair. Yeah, they knock you out. Never smoked cigarettes and never been drunk ever. Because I knew consciously that I couldn't bear the thought of disappointing my mother who went through all of this stuff, survived the concentration camps of Nazi Germany, survived a broken marriage, never got married, promised herself she wouldn't remarry until I became a grown man and totally dedicated herself to raising me. I'm gonna get. I'm just gonna choke up here. Total dedication, no matter what. A lioness. How would I be? So I grew up understanding that I'll take care of my mother and everything and it's just us against the world, nobody else. So I learned to be self absorbed, self, you know, trust yourself, don't anything. And you get. I didn't have.

[David Duchovny]

Those are two very different things. Self absorb and trust yourself. But I think it's instructive that you put them together like that because it's insightful as to who you are as well. That your self absorption is really.

[Gene Simmons]

I didn't want.

[David Duchovny]

Is really. It's your life force and it's your gratitude to your mom.

[Gene Simmons]

It still is. Yes, it still is. The survival and success. It still is the main motivating factor. Look, I can't give birth, but I can make money. Because at the end of the Day. What good is the male of the species unless we can pull the cart to market of the thing? You know, we don't make life. But at any rate, what I was going to say was, so I learned to be completely self absorbed. Here's what I want. Nobody's going to get in my way. And that means girlfriends.

[David Duchovny]

And you don't care what anybody says about you?

[Gene Simmons]

No. What does that mean? Do I have my mother's hips?

[David Duchovny]

Never hurt like the critics never loved your music or shit like that? That never hurt a little bit. Nothing. But didn't.

[Gene Simmons]

They're mulch.

[David Duchovny]

No, no, I know.

[Gene Simmons]

I don't mean that they're bad people. It's just they're not qualified to have. They've never done anything.

[David Duchovny]

It wasn't a little sting ever. No, no, not with boy, I. I salute you.

[Gene Simmons]

Money is the salve of everything. If you recognize that, you know, just laying in a bathtub, just throwing it up in the air. Money is the salve with a silent.

[David Duchovny]

L. But when you say salve with a silent L, you're implying that there was a. There was a. An injury. Salve.

[Gene Simmons]

No, you're saying no lack of money and failure is the injury. Okay, then you really care about what people say because what they say affects success. But there was a disconnect between, wait a minute. They don't like, but I think I can buy the building they live in and throw the guy out.

[David Duchovny]

But isn't it also that you didn't care as much about them criticizing the music because you knew what you were giving your fans was not just the music, it was the experience.

[Gene Simmons]

The fans loved it.

[David Duchovny]

Exactly.

[Gene Simmons]

But I wanted to get to a point, which is so my entire life I had lots of girls, one after the other and all that because, I don't know, the gift of gab or God knows why they let me get close to them. And I had only two semi serious girlfriends before I met Shannon, Diana and Cher. And that was it. Before then, I never wanted anybody telling me anything. And then I met Shannon, and it's like being thrown to the deep end of the pool. And I didn't know what hit me.

[David Duchovny]

Well, this was. I don't know if this was the answer to the question when I asked you, how did they teach you to love something other than yourself? Did it just happen with the birth of your children? Did it just happen when you reached a certain age?

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, I cry. I cried. They used to call me Spock when I was growing up.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, really?

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, that was my nickname. Cause I saw people falling downstairs and bleeding, and I was just notice it. I'm still mostly like that. The emotion of it is not there. David, I'm gonna be 76, and I don't have.

[David Duchovny]

What are you pointing at?

[Gene Simmons]

I don't have the shakes.

[David Duchovny]

Okay.

[Gene Simmons]

All right. I don't do the stress thing. I don't worry about. What does it all mean and where is it going? It seems to be in the.

[David Duchovny]

You know, you have a very interesting riff in Power where you talk about Fallon's work on psychopathology and you say, we could all use a little bit of psychopathology every now and then.

[Gene Simmons]

Of course.

[David Duchovny]

Can you explain what you mean by that?

[Gene Simmons]

Well, you riff a little bit and I'll jump in.

[David Duchovny]

What you're saying is that what we call a psychopath, it comes from an earlier part of our brain. It's not the prefrontal cortex, which is our reasoning. The prefrontal cortex is way more recent. Evolutionarily. It's very modern. And it's what we associate with empathy and reason.

[Gene Simmons]

And a psychopath is unable not because intentionally, they don't feel pathos or.

[David Duchovny]

Right. But we all have that underneath.

[Gene Simmons]

Absolutely. We have that underneath because it's a survival.

[David Duchovny]

And you say that a psychopath in a crisis is what we kind of need, Our own inner psychopath.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

And what you're advocating for is a.

[Gene Simmons]

Psychopath with a benevolent psychopath.

[David Duchovny]

A benevolent psychopath. Now, can you riff on that a little bit?

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah. So I do believe, and I say this to people, be delusional about yourself. Be like me. I don't mean my decisions in life. But who gives a fuck what anybody says about you? Everybody's got an opinion. Not everybody likes Jesus. What does that make Jesus? Irrelevant. That's not how it works.

[David Duchovny]

It also be like, who gives a fuck about that last failure? Just in terms of this podcast, who gives a fuck about that failure?

[Gene Simmons]

Well, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I mean, that is survival.

[David Duchovny]

So this guy, the demon, is he.

[Gene Simmons]

I would.

[David Duchovny]

Does he have a full biography? Did you think about what is he? What does he believe? What does he do? Is he a psychopath?

[Gene Simmons]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

And.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, we all have our Jekyll and Hydes, right? Yes, that's Mr. Hyde. Yeah. And it's all part of us because.

[David Duchovny]

He drinks blood, he breathes fire, he.

[Gene Simmons]

Plays bass, usually from the front, unless there's a lot of Italian food and then it comes in. But we are all different emotional and psychological phases. You're not play acting when you're going to a funeral and you feel downtrodden, you're crying or breathing heavy or whatever. And you're not play acting. When your adrenaline kicks in as you're being threatened by somebody holding a gun in front of you, and when you're in ecstasy, you're different. When you celebrate, your teeth are shown and your smile and all that. These are all part of the same person. But earlier, when survival wasn't a given, we were closer to our psychopathic nature, which is to say we couldn't be emotional.

[David Duchovny]

Do you think that's why one of the reasons why this character. Not character, Persona. Persona that you created is so popular, because it kind of taps into something.

[Gene Simmons]

For men, especially heterosexual men. Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Can you riff on that for a second?

[Gene Simmons]

Men have been emasculated. They've become in touch with their feminine side. I don't know about you, but I'm not. I'm not a fan of that. I don't want to be a feminine man, although a caring man. Yes. That comes with. I'm the provider and the protector.

[David Duchovny]

A loving man.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes. We scientists have found out that T. Rex, the most feared predator, was actually a loving parent who would, especially the female, would fight off and kill anybody that came near her eggs. And the male.

[David Duchovny]

So those little short arms were for hugging?

[Gene Simmons]

They were for hugging. Oh, my God. That picture is crazy. They started off actually before that, before Allosaurus and Dimetrodon and all that. I won second grade in the science fair. They used to be.

[David Duchovny]

They pushed up off the ground. Right.

[Gene Simmons]

They used to be four leg.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Gene Simmons]

And when. When they became biped so that they can see farther, these were on the way to disappearing completely because it didn't have to. Yeah, but they had large claws, so they can hold it close to the mouth.

[David Duchovny]

But also, I. I think that what. What. What's interesting about that is that. That teenage boys would be very attracted to this. So that was. That was. Would you say that was the core of your audience?

[Gene Simmons]

That's precisely. That's precisely it. And because teenage boys were attracted to that, straight women mostly were also attracted to that power and that thing. In point of fact, I had more than one request for girls to spend the night with the demon. Can you leave the makeup on? And the thing. Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

When did you come up with the name the Demon for that?

[Gene Simmons]

I did not. The fans said no. The fans, they started calling me the Demon, and they started calling Paul the star child. Star child.

[David Duchovny]

You had no name for this Persona?

[Gene Simmons]

No.

[David Duchovny]

All right, my last question for you. What's the next hustle? Because you're still hustling. You have been interested in acting. You've done.

[Gene Simmons]

You did your Michael Crichton gave me my shot.

[David Duchovny]

Are you still interested in acting?

[Gene Simmons]

It's fun, but the amount of too much waiting around.

[David Duchovny]

Too much waiting around, Right?

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah. And you just never know when the next thing is. I mean, you got. I don't mean lucky. I mean, you had a great time with X Files and you know what's going on and you're working all the time. You know, you had a regimen, but poor actors who go from gig to gig. One year you don't work at all. Am I out? And then all of a sudden.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, but you don't have to rely on that.

[Gene Simmons]

Okay, so what's my households today? Well, we spend a lot of time, Paul and I, on the Kiss thing. There's a motion picture coming out that Mick G is going to direct. And we have the Kiss Avatars show coming. There's a lot of Kiss stuff. There's going to be cartoons and traveling, Kiss shows and all that. A lot of licensing and merchandising. I like to joke around, but it's actual fact. We've had Kiss condoms and Kiss caskets. We got you coming and we got you going. See what I did there?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I do, but that's actually, I not only see what you did, but I saw it coming.

[Gene Simmons]

Fact.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I want to end and this could be a grave mistake.

[Gene Simmons]

You're going to take your pants off.

[David Duchovny]

They haven't been on the whole time. Do you remember the David de Cundy why don't yout Love Me video that you guys did? You don't remember appearing in that, do you? There was a song that was written about me. And then Kiss in full makeup, full concert gear gave me a shout out back then. And I saw. We have never met until today. But you know, that was.

[Gene Simmons]

Give me five bucks. Fuck that other stuff. Give me your money.

[David Duchovny]

But you called me out. You said something to me in there. You said something about my acting and then you did.

[Gene Simmons]

What did I say?

[David Duchovny]

I can't remember. But I also am. My agent was Risa Shapiro back in the day.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, I used to. I used to torture Reader. I said, I'll tell you what I said to her over and over again.

[David Duchovny]

She said that she did an imitation of me.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes, all the time. Well, ready?

[David Duchovny]

No, I'm not ready.

[Gene Simmons]

Hi, I'm David Duchovny. My mouth barely moves when I talk. Here's me when I'm angry. Here's me when I'm sad. And she used to be in her office talking about some project. She'd laugh her head off. But not in front of you.

[David Duchovny]

Not laughing.

[Gene Simmons]

You barely move your mouth when you talk. I don't know how you do that.

[David Duchovny]

Skill, my friend.

[Gene Simmons]

It's a skill if you.

[David Duchovny]

Wait, wait.

[Gene Simmons]

It's like skill, my friend.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, it's called deadpan. I guess there's a lot going on underneath. I guess you got to look more closely.

[Gene Simmons]

I'm so sorry.

[David Duchovny]

I would tell you this in response to your imitation of me that when I started out and X Files was very early on for me, I was struggling. I wasn't yet the actor that I could become. There was a lot of pressure, a lot of lines, and I think I was tight, and I think I turned that into kind of a style, at least in that show. And I think you were perceptive in a way for calling that out.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, I think it worked. There's no question about it. In X Files.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. I'm defending myself.

[Gene Simmons]

No, making an observation, not a defense. In X Files, I was always wondering, and I must have seen all of them, but certainly the vast majority is.

[David Duchovny]

A sci fi fan, aren't you?

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, I'll tell you more things than you want to know. You can test each other. I was always wondering, what's this guy all about? Because you just didn't show it. I mean, besides, you know, the man with the cigarette and all this other stuff. You always wonder. Well, it's not like a Dashiell Hammett character or anything, sweetheart. It's this kind of.

[David Duchovny]

It was a Persona, wasn't it?

[Gene Simmons]

Yes. And you're dealing with, you know, different kinds of ideas and certainly the wrong here, the wrong actor being in that role.

[David Duchovny]

I. I know where you're going. We don't have to name any names. And I appreciate it. Thank you, Gene Simmons.

[Gene Simmons]

Now get out.

[David Duchovny]

It's been my pleasure. Can't believe I had all these notes, but I didn't even look at them. Did I? Didn't look at them.

[Gene Simmons]

I was about to say this is the first. I've done a few podcasts. Not too many, but first one I ever saw with anybody having notes not just look unbelievable.

[David Duchovny]

Well, here's. Here's the earlier notes.

[Gene Simmons]

Wow.

[Podcast Producer/Host]

Gene Simmons character for sure. What a character.

[David Duchovny]

Anyway.

[Podcast Producer/Host]

I had some interesting thoughts coming out of that. But Jean's massive contradictions in a way, you know, because he comes across kind of hard and, you know, the, say, provocative kind of sexual innuendo I feel like it's just to kind of throw people off. It's like a shield. I think he uses it as a shield so that people don't actually try to get under the mask. I think it's another part of the mask that he talks about, because this is a guy who, I mean, check it out. He did a cover of when you wish upon a Star, and it's not ironic. He believes in the American dream. He believes in if you wish and you work hard enough, Jiminy Cricket can be yours. So those are the contradictions, which are quite kind of fascinating when you think about speaking with him.

[Gene Simmons]

And also.

[Podcast Producer/Host]

His fuck failure attitude is refreshing. And in many ways, if we go back to the origins of this podcast, it's been about finding something within you. They can either learn from failure or say, fuck failure. I'm gonna take my next shot. I'm gonna do my next thing. And that's kind of the sweet spot.

[David Duchovny]

Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the full version of my post interview thoughts that you won't hear anywhere else. That's more of my recaps on interviews with guests like Chris Carter and Emily Deschanel. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadepremium.com to subscribe on any other app that's lemon lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. Failbetter is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Mia David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

[Gene Simmons]

Our healthcare system is broken in so many ways. We have a healthcare system that's supposed to be taking care of people, that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is making it literally more difficult for.

[Gene Simmons]

People to put food on the table. So this season we'll dive into the challenges headfirst while also thinking about how we can find a better way because we all deserve better. Uncared for Season 3 from Lemonada Media available August 6th wherever you get your podcasts.