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- [00:01]
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- [00:21]
Reshma Saujani
I'm Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls who Code. Look, I'd consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. I've written books, founded two successful nonprofits, and I'm raising two incredible kids. But here's the thing. I still wake up wondering, is this it? And if the best years are yet to come, when's that going to start? Join me on My so Called Midlife, my new podcast with Lemonada Media, where we're building a playbook for navigating midlife one episode at a time. Each week, I'll chat with extraordinary guests who've transformed their midlife crisis into opportunities for growth and newfound purpose. At some point, we all ask ourselves, is there more to life? I'm here to discover how to thrive in my second act, right alongside you. My so Called Midlife is out now, wherever you get your podcasts. Lemonade.
- [01:32]
David Duchovny
I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Gretchen Rubin is considered one of today's most influential observers of happiness and human nature. She has a slate of New York Times bestselling books, including the Happiness Project, an award winning app, and a hit podcast called Happier and Happier is now a part of Lemonada Media, which you might know as the same network that puts out this show. Before she got into this work, Gretchen had a very successful law career, including advising the chairman of the FCC and clerking for Sandra Day O'Connor, and she still just wasn't happy. Gretchen was in her 40s when she decided to research how to be happier, and her approach has turned out to be pretty much the opposite from what we hear from self help gurus. Now, Gretchen identifies primarily as a writer, which is obviously something I relate to, but otherwise her work is pretty foreign to me. You know, she at least appears to be on the other side of the spectrum from failure, but I knew she'd have a lot to say about ups and downs and maybe bring some more ups to to this podcast. Here's our conversation. Hi.
- [02:48]
Gretchen Rubin
Hello.
- [02:49]
David Duchovny
Hi, Gretchen. Nice to meet you. I'm David.
- [02:51]
Gretchen Rubin
Nice to meet you.
- [02:53]
David Duchovny
I'm really happy that. Well, that's the wrong word, isn't it? I'm really happy to talk to you today. Because it's a very kind of deep subject in my family because when I was a kid and up until adulthood, easily, my mother would always ask me, are you happy? And I never. I could never understand the question. You know, I would say, I don't even know what that means, mom, you know, And I hated it so much. I hated that question. And she always. It was almost like the end of the conversation, are you happy?
- [03:32]
Gretchen Rubin
And do you think it was like, you're only as happy as your least happy child? So she wanted to know if you were happy so she could be happy?
- [03:40]
David Duchovny
No, no. She was Scottish, so she knew all her children. She knew all her children were miserable. So it wasn't even. I always liked hearing when I became a parent and I heard that phrase for the first time. It rang very true, though, you know, that you are only as happy as your least happy child. But that's the ironic part, is that when I became a par. I found myself asking my kids if they were happy. And I didn't even know what the question meant. You know, I didn't know how to answer it. I didn't know. And yet something genetic in me went, oh, I've gotta ask my kids if they're happy or not. And I realized in going over a lot of your work that you kind of shy away from a definition of happiness. You know, it's this kind of pivotal word. It's the crucial word in your work. And yet you're not gonna define it, are you? Yep, that's true. You won't define it for me.
- [04:39]
Gretchen Rubin
No. Because I feel exactly the way you do. When people say to me, are you happy? I feel like my brain melts. I'm like. I don't even understand how to think about it because it's like, rate yourself on a scale of 1 to 10. What does that even mean? Because sometimes we're happy and unhappy at the same time. Like, how do you weigh things that make you happy in the long term but make you less happy in the short term? So this is why I don't. There's something like 15 academic definitions of happ. And I sort of think everybody should just find what works for them. Peace, joy, satisfaction, well being. There's so many ways to describe it, but I think for the average person, I find it more helpful to think about being happier. Whatever being happy means for you, for David, for Gretchen, if you do a certain action this week, this month, this year, is it gonna make you happier? And I think most of us have a sense of like when we're moving in the right direction, but it means to be happy or achieve happiness. I feel like that's really confusing. But if you just think about, well, what would make you happier, that feels very concrete and manageable. So that's why I think like just define it for yourself, but just move in the right direction.
- [05:52]
David Duchovny
And I think also what you're getting to is an important point because when you're speaking, I'm reminded of we might be the only culture that's ever asked ourselves that or has said, hey, we deserve to be happy, you know, where is our happiness? That somehow we were promised this thing called happiness. I don't know. I think that's a relatively modern kind of a feeling.
- [06:18]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, the, I mean many cultures throughout time have looked at it and here's the thing which I always think when I hear that argument. It's like, it almost seems like people think, well, it's not appropriate to think about being happy. But I'm like, what would be more appropriate to then to think about having a life? Because also a life of happiness is not a life of hedonic self indulgence.
- [06:42]
David Duchovny
No, I think it's the opposite. I think where the confusion happens is. And I think the ancient wisdom and the ancient addressing of this issue was more of a life, what is a life well lived as opposed to what makes me happy? Or what is happiness?
- [06:57]
Gretchen Rubin
But then we get into the definitions again.
- [06:59]
David Duchovny
Yes, I know, exactly, exactly. Happiness might be a life well lived indeed, you know, for sure. But what I wanted to get to was that idea of. I don't know if I want to call it like a selfishness because I think that often my sense of happiness. Exactly what you were saying, it's not hedonistic, it's the times when I have felt most happy in the. Whatever that means is when I've been connected outside of myself. When I've been connected whether in service or in community or in self abnegation really, there's a certain kind of happiness in getting your mind off of your goddamn self. You know, and what the trick that you're talking about that's interesting is that in order to get to that point, first you've got to really focus on yourself. You know, there's this kind of, there's this kind of like, yes, it's not a bait and switch, but it' like, okay, you're thinking too much about yourself, that's why you're miserable. My antidote is we're going to think more about yourself.
- [08:08]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes, yes, absolutely. This Is very confusing. You put your finger right on something that confused me for so long when I began my study of happiness. And this is how I frame it. See if this works for you.
- [08:20]
David Duchovny
Okay.
- [08:21]
Gretchen Rubin
Because two things are true. One of the best ways to make yourself happy is to make other people happy. And that's absolutely true. It's one of the nicest things about human nature. One of the best ways to make yourself happy is to make other people happier. And what's also true is that one of the best ways to make other people happier is to be happy yourself.
- [08:45]
David Duchovny
Oh, yeah.
- [08:46]
Gretchen Rubin
Because when we're happier, we are more able to turn outward and to think about the problems of other people and the problems of the world. We're more likely to volunteer. We donate more money, we volunteer more time. We're more likely to help out if somebody needs a hand. We just can think about other people because we're not preoccupied with ourselves and sort of, you know, because we might feel defensive or isolated or lonely or because we're not feeling very happy. And also, happiness is contagious. There's emotional contagion. We infect each other with our emotions in just a moment, in a phone call, in a photograph, over a podcast. Like, we pick up emotions from other people. So when you're happier, that helps other people to become happier. Within reason, of course. I don't want to paint like an unrealistic picture, but I think these two things are true at the same time. And it can get very confusing. You're right, because it's like, do I think about other people or do I think about myself? But both are true. They're not. It's a false choice to think about. Well, I have to think about other people. It's wrong to think about myself Or I only should focus on myself and neglect thinking about other people. I just have to just focus on my self, work all day long. It's like we have to think about both things at once.
- [09:54]
David Duchovny
Well, you can also think of it as a process, you know, a process of going. Of going through yourself to get out of yourself, if that makes any sense.
- [10:04]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [10:05]
David Duchovny
You know, I'm so easily bored by myself that I have trouble, you know, but that gets to something that I'd want to talk to you about, which is very, very interesting to me, that, you know, if we just talk about like a traditional therapy. Traditional, like say Freudian therapy, where the concept is, I'm going to go in and talk to this expert and I'm going to know why I am unhappy or I'M going to know why I do the things I'm going to do. And it's going to take a long time. It's going to take years and years and years. And then all of a sudden this other cognitive therapy or 12 step therapy, whatever you want to call it, says, no, that's not important. It's not important to know why. Maybe it's fun, it's cool, it makes for good writing, whatever, a good story. But what's more important is start doing it the right way. Start acting as if the person you are, the person that you want to be, doing the things that you think you want to do, and that will change your mind. Rather than your mind changing your mind. Action is going to change your mind. And I see you in that kind of camp. Is that correct?
- [11:19]
Gretchen Rubin
That's absolutely correct. I, I very much am drawn to sort of what are the practical steps that we can take with our conscious thoughts and actions to make ourselves happier, healthier, more productive, or more creative. And you're right, having insight can be very profound. But there's also a lot of things that you can just do starting tomorrow that can change your experience. And I'm just. That is what interests me is sort of like, given all that science shows and philosophy shows and pop culture and ancient wisdom, like, what can we do in our own lives, just in an ordinary day, to put those ideas into action?
- [11:58]
David Duchovny
And it's your sense as a, as an observer and as like a lay scientist.
- [12:03]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, street scientist.
- [12:05]
David Duchovny
Street scientist. Is that how you.
- [12:07]
Gretchen Rubin
That's what I call myself.
- [12:08]
David Duchovny
Yeah. That it's your sense and it's your experience, is what I'm getting, is that that is true, that right action leads to right thinking and not necessarily vice versa.
- [12:21]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. And I don't even know that I would say right thinking because I would just say, what is the experience of your life? I would just say, like, in my observation, if you do this, what is the experience of your life? Because again, I think I at least find it frustrating when I'm trying to get into my own head, like when people are like, oh, well, I want to be more optimistic. Well, I'm like, oh, that's like a habit of mind. That's like very. To me, that feels very hard to sort of think about what to do. But there are things that you can do with your conscious thoughts and actions that are much more concrete. And therefore it's much easier to know whether you're following through with them. So, like, instead of thinking about, you know, I want to be more Connected to the people I love. It's more like, okay, five times a day, I'm going to text, email, call, or talk to somebody important to me or whatever it might be, just to try to make it into a conscious.
- [13:11]
David Duchovny
And then you're going to get that text. It's like, will you stop texting me so much?
- [13:15]
Gretchen Rubin
Right, Exactly. Yes. Back off. Yeah. My sister calls me a happiness bully because I can kind of come on strong if I think that there's some way for me or somebody else to become happier. So, yeah, sometimes you got to dial it back. But. But, like. So, for example, one thing that I started doing because I wanted to have, like, warmer relationships in my family was every time somebody comes and goes from the apartment, I try to give them a warm hello or goodbye. So, like, think about your dog. Like, that's why people like dogs. They always seem happy to see you. And I was like, I should do that for my family. And so now, you know, like, if my husband comes home, I get up, go to him, and, like, give him a kiss. And that's very easy. It doesn't take much time or energy, but it dramatically increased, like, my feeling of connection and just kind of like the atmosphere of tenderness and attentiveness because it doesn't feel good. Walk in and nobody pays attention. So, again, it's like, I had a.
- [14:12]
David Duchovny
Great Scotty dog growing up who would actually turn her head the other way when we walked in the door.
- [14:21]
Gretchen Rubin
You had a cold upbringing.
- [14:24]
David Duchovny
She was a wonderful dog, but she was. She was tough.
- [14:29]
Gretchen Rubin
You got to earn it.
- [14:30]
David Duchovny
Where the hell have you been all day? Where have you been all day, you bastard? School, I guess, huh? Yeah. Like, that's so important. And I think it's like the cart before the horse again that we're talking about, which is very much, you know, like a fake it till you make it. Not that you're faking that you're in love with your husband, but in that moment, you don't. You're not necessarily like, oh, my God, I love that guy. I'm gonna go give him a kiss. It's like, I'm gonna go give him a kiss. And now it's like, oh, my God, I love that guy.
- [14:58]
Gretchen Rubin
No. And this is a really profound insight. And I want to ask you about this, actually about acting, because this is something that's always. I always wondered. So the idea is that we often think that we act because of the way we feel. So I'm yelling because I'm angry, or I'm throwing things because I'm mad. But in fact, a lot of times our feelings come from our actions. It's like our brain is saying, like, wow, there's so much yelling and throwing of things. We must feel really angry. And so if you. So it's hard to control your thoughts, but it's easier to control your actions. So if you, like, if you want to fight with somebody, hold their hand. It's just harder to fight with somebody when you're holding their hand. And. Or if you feel listless, act with energy, speak with more energy, move with more energy. If you're feeling shy, act friendly. And then your feelings kind of flow from that. So it's kind of uncanny how much we can influence our emotional state by just kind of tweaking the way we behave, which is not always that easy, but it's something we can do. But I've always wondered, given that this principle is true, I've always wondered this about actors. Like, do you have a lot of, like, leakage if you're acting in a part that is requiring you to be angry or guilty? Like, do you. Do you have to manage that kind of leakage into your own mental state? Or is that part of the craft, is that you have some kind of boundary between the behavior you're displaying and your own emotional state, like when you're walking off the set?
- [16:25]
David Duchovny
Well, I'll give you an honest answer, and it will obviously obviate any kind of excuse I'll ever have in the future for being an asshole at any point, like coming off the set. But I'll answer that in a second. But just while you were talking, have you read much William James, who is.
- [16:41]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes, I love William James.
- [16:43]
David Duchovny
Yeah, so he.
- [16:44]
Gretchen Rubin
You weren't you. Were you. Were you an American Studies major? No.
- [16:48]
David Duchovny
No, but I did. I did teach in American Studies or TA'd in American Studies.
- [16:52]
Gretchen Rubin
Course, you were the TA for my roommate. Yeah.
- [16:56]
David Duchovny
Well, do I say. I'm sorry? What do I say? How was I? How was I? Was it just.
- [17:02]
Gretchen Rubin
I think you were good.
- [17:02]
David Duchovny
Yeah. What was your roommate's name?
- [17:05]
Gretchen Rubin
Amanda Kelly.
- [17:06]
David Duchovny
Okay. Not sure I remember, but it's a long time ago.
- [17:10]
Gretchen Rubin
But William James is what I'm. If you're doing American Studies like William James is gonna be.
- [17:14]
David Duchovny
Yeah, but I think James said, we don't cry because we're sad. We're sad because we cry. You know, and that's an acting tip. That can be an acting tip. Fake it till you make it is. Obviously, you know, there are many ways to go about trying to get a Performance out of yourself. There are many secrets that you. That you have in your craft or your skill set or whatever when you're on the set. And some of them can be working on some days and some of them don't. And some days you find yourself dry, empty, unable to have the feelings that you're supposed to be having. And on those days, that's when you earn your pay, you know, that's when you fake it till you make it. That's when you know, I will do a scene at a really high volume just to get my energy going, just to get my anger going, if that's a necessary thing. All those things that you're talking about are fair game for an actor, obviously. But to answer the other part of your question, does it leak? No. What I find is you get it out, you deal with whatever it is. I don't find that it continues to make me respond. Maybe there's a bit of a cooling off period on a drive home or whatever. But in general, the experience that I've had with the overflow of great emotion when I'm working on those particular characters and days is great relief, great kind of satisfaction.
- [18:59]
Gretchen Rubin
Kind of, yeah.
- [19:00]
David Duchovny
I hesitate to say therapeutic because I don't like to portray actors as people that are, you know, undergoing their own personal therapy in front of other people for a living. But it is. These are feelings, you know, we're talking about feelings. And maybe happiness is a feeling. Maybe we have to identify it as that. And feelings are not facts. You know, feelings flow. Feelings, you know, you know, and I know what you're doing is trying to give people agency, you know, and, and, you know, that's a good thing. But I think there's a limit, you know, just as you would say, for sure, just as you say there's a limit to happiness. Personal happiness is another thing I found fascinating in your work is that because you're dealing with happiness, which is such a big, broad concept, but you also say at some point it seems that people have a ceiling.
- [19:56]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, what the actual scientists say is that about 50% of happiness is genetically determined. Then about 10 to 20% is something called life circumstances. So that's things like health, income, marital status, occupation, education, and then the rest is very much a product of our conscious thoughts and actions. So what I would say to you is like, yeah, maybe you're a person where your natural range is like 4 to 7, and then somebody else's natural range might be 7 to 10.
- [20:26]
David Duchovny
Those bastards.
- [20:28]
Gretchen Rubin
I know we see those people. I know exactly what you mean? So I think the question for each of us is given my nature, given my circumstances, am I doing that I can, within my conscious thoughts and actions, to push myself up to the top of my range instead of letting myself drift down to the bottom of my range? Because if you can be at a 10, maybe you don't want to be a 7, and if you can be at a 7, you don't want to be at a 4.
- [20:52]
David Duchovny
Why would it be. I mean, and this is complete conjecture, why would it be that we have different capacities for happiness? What would be the. This is an impossible question. I didn't think to ask you this or myself, but what's the evolutionary business behind happiness and whether or not we can attain it and keep it?
- [21:12]
Gretchen Rubin
It just seems that evolution thinks there's. It's good to have a range, you know, it's good to have a wide range of temperament and that sometimes it's really good for people to be very neurotic and sometimes it's good for people to be, you know, more. Yeah. And so. And then each of us gets our own particular cluster. And then of course, our context matters, our upbringing matters, you know, culture matters. So many factors come. Health matters. All these things come into play.
- [21:55]
David Duchovny
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- [24:52]
Discover Card Advertisement
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- [25:40]
David Duchovny
You know, I think in your personal life it's very, it's very interesting to me. You come from a your family business, which is law. Right? Is that correct in saying, I mean your dad.
- [25:52]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, my father was a lawyer. Yeah. Or is a lawyer. Yeah. Is a lawyer once a lawyer, always a lawyer? I have found having gone to law school, it shapes you.
- [25:59]
David Duchovny
Okay.
- [26:00]
Gretchen Rubin
Like being raised Catholic, it's with you forever.
- [26:02]
David Duchovny
All right. I accept that not having gone to law school, but I relate to that so much on a personal level because I also I didn't go as far as you because you were clerking for the first woman to serve on the Supreme Court. I mean, you were not just a lawyer lawyer. You were a successful lawyer on her way up. So it wasn't like, you know what? I don't really like practicing law. This isn't really. I gotta. I gotta write. It was. I'm a superstar right now. How old were you?
- [26:35]
Gretchen Rubin
Like, 27, 28.
- [26:37]
David Duchovny
You know, let me say you're a superstar, it seems to me. I don't know anything about it, but if you're clerking for the first Supreme Court justice, is a woman, and you're a woman, and you're 27, you're a superstar, and you decide, I'd rather fail at writing than I would than to succeed at lawyering. You were really courting failure there. So where did that come from? Aside from some small voice inside you that was saying, these clothes don't fit? And also the stakes for you of throwing that away, which is how it was presented to me when I did it. You're throwing something away. You're throwing away something you worked so hard to do.
- [27:24]
Gretchen Rubin
Mm. Well, I think I don't regret having gone to law school. I had an amazing experience. But I will say that I do, looking back on it, feel like there was a failure at the time to think about, well, what do I want? I was just one of these people where it was like, I don't know what to do with myself. So I'm really good at reading and writing. So why don't I tell. Take the LSAT and see how I do. Oh, I did well in the lsat. I apply to law school and see where I get it. Oh, I got into law school. That seems cool. I'll go there. Oh, what you're supposed to do now is apply for a clerkship. Okay, I'll do that. I was just. It was. I was just drifting. I was just doing.
- [28:00]
David Duchovny
Sound like you were drifting. You know what?
- [28:02]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay. But see, this is the thing about drift is. Drift sounds like it's easy and relaxed, but it actually can be accompanied with a huge amount of work. But I was drifting, and then I was. I wasn't making a conscious choice. I was just doing kind of the obvious thing. I didn't want to sit down and reflect. Like, what do I really want from life anyway? I had no idea that, like, I didn't even conceive of even thinking of it. So I was always just doing, like, the next obvious thing. So I never really stopped to think about what I wanted. So I just kept doing the Next obvious thing. And then it would work out great. So then I would do the next obvious thing. And then I came to the end, and I was like, well, what am I gonna do now? And I just. I was like, I have no idea. And I was surrounded. Cause I was clerking. I was surrounded by people who loved law. They wanted to talk about law at lunch. They wanted to. On the weekends. They were randomly talking about cases that they read in their free time. They were reading law journals for fun. These were people who loved law. And I was like, I don't love law.
- [29:02]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [29:03]
Gretchen Rubin
I was just good at doing what I needed to do.
- [29:06]
David Duchovny
So you're talking about passion now.
- [29:09]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, and I'm just saying that, like, I didn't even. I just. I didn't even. I wasn't even at the passion level. I wasn't even, like, what kind of thing are you interested in? But I will say, too, like, at that time, I only read fiction. Like, all my. I just read fiction. And so I. I thought you either had to be a fiction writer or, like, a playwright or poet, or you were a journalist or you were an academic, or you were somebody who, like, wrote books about the building of the Brooklyn Bridge or something like that. And it took me a long time to realize, like, well, no, there's a place for me writing nonfiction. Cause I'm not a storyteller. I couldn't write fiction. I knew that.
- [29:47]
David Duchovny
Well, why. Why do you. How can you say that?
- [29:49]
Gretchen Rubin
I have written three really bad novels that are safely locked in desktop.
- [29:53]
David Duchovny
They say you gotta write 10 bad one.
- [29:55]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay, I probably will. I don't know. They're not good yet. But I really like writing nonfiction. But it took me a while to understand, like, how I could do it in the way that was right for me. So I was. I. So I spent a huge amount of time and energy, and I had a great experience. Because sometimes drift gives you a good experience. Like, I don't regret, probably. I mean, do you regret what you did for your PhD now? It sounds like it's really enriched your life. I mean, just in this conversation, you're drawing upon, you know, so sometimes we do things.
- [30:25]
David Duchovny
You've said in other places that you're a mastery addict or, you know, you love mastery. So I think that probably there was a sense for you as a young person that you were at least you'd gained some kind of mastery over the law in a way. So it was feeding a need. It was feeding a need for mastery, which is a very dangerous and wonderful kind of A need.
- [30:50]
Gretchen Rubin
It is very dangerous because then you. Because if you're committed to mastery, then you can't feed. Fail.
- [30:55]
David Duchovny
I know.
- [30:57]
Gretchen Rubin
Yep.
- [30:57]
David Duchovny
So. So what? So who are you then? Where. Where are you now?
- [31:03]
Gretchen Rubin
I'm always saying, enjoy the fun of failure. Like, let things fail. Like, things won't work out, things aren't going to go well, and if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough. Like, I have all these aphorisms that I invoke for myself to remind myself that. Yeah, because you're right. Otherwise, the shame. It's interesting. I don't know if you've experienced this, but sometimes when I talk about failure or the fun of failure, people will say to me a. Like, oh, no. Like, don't, don't. Don't consider it failure. You've got to, like, reframe it. And see, in this whole other way, I'm like, no, that's exactly wrong. Because I want to say it's okay for it to be a failure. I can say it's a failure, and that is fine. I don't need to pretend like, it's just a success in a different outfit. Like, it's okay for things to be failed.
- [31:46]
David Duchovny
Yeah. And it also.
- [31:47]
Gretchen Rubin
Do you get that? Do you have people telling you, like, they deny that even. That is. That failure is even a real thing?
- [31:55]
David Duchovny
Yeah, I mean, you know, they like to catch failure as, you know, another step towards success. Or, you know, with this podcast, they'll say, what do you know about failure, David? You're not a failure. Whatever.
- [32:05]
Gretchen Rubin
Right?
- [32:05]
David Duchovny
And, you know, I'll say, well, you know, live in my skin. I'll tell you what, it feels like. You know, every moment can feel like a failure where I'm not kind of, you know, I didn't choose the right word. I didn't speak to Gretchen in a way that made us. Whatever got us to a different place. Like, you know, we got to a good place, but we could have gotten to a different place. So it's like, it's all these things, you know, there's. There's no perfection. There's no real mastery, but there is this kind of undying apprenticeship that I do enjoy. And it's why I still love acting. It's why I love writing. It's why I love music, making music, because I. I am constantly failing. And. And that's. That's the atmosphere of growth that's no longer. I. I would like to say that I'm not filled with shame, but, you know, shame will rear its ugly head from time to time, especially because I do something that's in public, you know, and if I do something that's not well received in public, that it's hard to say, hey, this is fun, you know. Yes, this is fun to be called shitty, you know, this week it's not.
- [33:08]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, you've described that getting the bad reviews and. Yeah, like, and, and it's funny because hearing you, it just sounds like an interesting anecdote from your life. And like. But then, you know, like what the gut punch it is now.
- [33:23]
David Duchovny
It is now.
- [33:24]
Gretchen Rubin
I remember reading James Atlas wrote a novel, who's a very well known essayist and nonfiction writer who's now died. But he said he wrote a novel. And like he got up super early in the morning, this was a long time ago, like to get the, you know, get the review. Like the minute it hit the newsstands and he read it and it was a terrible review. And he went home and he curled up in bed and he never wrote another word of fiction.
- [33:45]
David Duchovny
Well, this is what I want to ask you. You know you said you've written two or three bad novels.
- [33:50]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. Nobody's even seen them. They're so bad.
- [33:53]
David Duchovny
You haven't seen them?
- [33:54]
Gretchen Rubin
No.
- [33:54]
David Duchovny
You've decided that they're no good.
- [33:57]
Gretchen Rubin
I know they're no good.
- [33:58]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [33:59]
Gretchen Rubin
I mean, you know how it is. You can have fun creating something and then just be like, you know, yeah, it didn't turn into what it needed to be, but it's still like doing scales. You know what I mean? It's writing, it's doing scales. And then I don't know if you've ever had this where you have a blocking project where there's a creative project that you want to do, even though, you know it's like it's not gonna be good or it doesn't make any kind of. Doesn't make sense. And yet you just feel like you have to do it to sort of get it out of the way. So sometimes I had a couple of ideas like that.
- [34:29]
David Duchovny
Right. But let's get. Can we. I wanna go back to, you know, that the moment. Because, you know, you brought up the moment of like, say I get a bad review or something and now it's a funny story and I'm like the butt of the joke. And, you know, that's mature. I mean, that's fun. But in the moment, no, in the moment it's life and death and it hurts. So, yeah, take me back to, you know, your clerking. And do you actually say dad, family, whoever's nearest and dearest to you. I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm going to write. Or do you start writing on your own, on the sly, like, in the dark, not telling anybody? You're going to see if it works out. If it doesn't, nobody's any wiser. What's what?
- [35:19]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, one thing about me is I, throughout my life, will get really preoccupied with different ideas, and I'll do a huge amount of research and note taking, and I just do that. And when I was clerking, I asked myself, like, what am I interested in that everybody in the world is interested in? I just sort of asked myself that theoretical question, and I thought, well, power, money, fame, sex. It was like, power, money, fame, sex. And I instantly. It seemed like this kind of one single major subject to me. And I just started doing all this research and note taking. But this is something that I had done many, many times throughout my life, but this just took over. I was working on it all the time, and finally I thought to myself, this is the kind of thing a person would do if they were going to write a book. And then I thought, well, maybe I could be the kind of person who would write that book. And so I went and got a book called something like how to write and sell your nonfiction book proposal, and just, like, decided I would follow the direction. Yeah. And so part of it was I was starting it, and I wasn't telling anybody about it because I didn't think of it as being a book. And then you're right. Like, I was like, maybe this could be a book. And that. I sort of was like, I didn't really say anything to anybody. I was just, like, kind of easing up on the idea. And then there had to become the moment where I was like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. Like, I'm not gonna. My job had come to an end. I'm like, I'm not gonna get another job. I'm gonna. My husband and I were moving back to New York City, and I'm like, I'm not gonna get another job, try to get an agent and to get this. Write a book proposal and get it accepted. And the thing that was. Really made it much easier for me was how everybody around me was just like, okay, great, excellent. Like, good luck. Like, nobody was warning me or saying, how can you give up everything you've done? Or, like. And I had nothing. I had no clip. I had never published a short story. I had nothing in this world of publishing. So I was starting from zero. And everybody around me was just like, okay, like give it your shot. And that made it a lot easier because I think had they really argued against it, that would have made it much harder for me to sort of. Because I did think like I need to try and either succeed or fail. And if I fail, then I'll figure it out. But this is my time to succeed or fail. If I take another job in law, probably I will never take the risk. I'll just be too busy. It'll never feel like the right time. This is the right. It's now or never. It felt like to me.
- [37:56]
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- [39:04]
David Duchovny
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- [40:33]
Gretchen Rubin
Hi, I'm Emily Deschanel. And I'm Carla Gallo. And we're excited to tell you about Boneheads, our new Bones Rewatch podcast. I played Dr. Temperance Brennan. And I played Daisy Wick. And we are going to watch from the very beginning. We're going to watch the episodes, we're going to reminisce, we're going to laugh, we're going to cry, we're going to tell behind the scenes stories, we're going to go on tape. Tangents. A lot of tangents. So whether you're a seasoned Bones fanatic or a newcomer looking to dip your toes in to the wild world of.
- [41:05]
Reshma Saujani
Forensic anthropology, this show is for you.
- [41:08]
Gretchen Rubin
Boneheads from Lemonada Media is out now.
- [41:11]
Reshma Saujani
Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [41:35]
David Duchovny
This is one of the things that perches on the nexus of failure is also quitting. You know, and that's something that we don't, we don't talk about that much is like quitting is so scary, right? And quitting is also tinged with shame. You know, we winners never quit. This is what we're taught. We're taught, we're, you know, but there has to be a moment where, where if you're honest with yourself, you can quit something, even if it's lucrative, even if you're good at it, even if you're helping people. All these positive things that could, let's say it's not a negative thing that you're quitting, but you have passion, you have attention somewhere else. It seems like that's what you went through because you were in a productive world. You were being productive, you had a job, you were with people, you were a productive member of society, you were gainfully employed and you quit. You quit. You're a quitter.
- [42:30]
Gretchen Rubin
No. And I remember the day where my husband, he switched out of law the same time I did. And we got like our bar fees, like, you know, you have to pay to, like, be a member of the New York bar. And I said to him, should we pay our bar fees? And he's like, why would we pay our bar fees? And I'm like, okay, we're really doing this. We're really leaving lot now. I know you could go back and like, just pay. And it wasn't. But at the time, I felt like, okay, this is it. Like, we are cutting ties.
- [42:57]
David Duchovny
Barfy. Sounds like, you know, like a Razzie Award. Like the fees.
- [43:02]
Gretchen Rubin
The fees for the bar. Yes. To be a member of the bar fees. Oh, yes. I. I think that's a very good name for them. That's how people feel. They don't want the barfies. Yeah. But no. So I was like, this feels like a major. Like a moment of commitment.
- [43:20]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [43:20]
Gretchen Rubin
And I was like, okay. Yeah. Like, let's onward.
- [43:25]
David Duchovny
You know, Correct me if I'm wrong, but this first book was not a success. Right. This was 40 ways of looking at JFK. Or was it.
- [43:32]
Gretchen Rubin
No, no, no. This was. My first book was called Power, Money, Fame, Sex, a Young Child.
- [43:36]
David Duchovny
So that was your list?
- [43:37]
Gretchen Rubin
That was my first book, yeah.
- [43:38]
David Duchovny
How did that do?
- [43:39]
Gretchen Rubin
It did okay. It did well enough that I got my second book published, which was 40 Ways to Look at Winston Churchill. And that book did fine. And then my book, 40 Ways to Look at JFK. What they say to you in publishing, if your book is a flop is they say your book did not find its audience. Yeah, that's a very diplomatic way of saying it. That book did not find its audience.
- [44:03]
David Duchovny
Why didn't it?
- [44:04]
Gretchen Rubin
Because my approach with the 40 Ways is to show that there's many ways. They're kind of playing with the form of biography. And it's showing like you can give many accounts of the same person absolutely, factually, accurately, but present them a completely different portrait of them. And so I'm sort of very fascinated by.
- [44:20]
David Duchovny
You're re. Centering narratives.
- [44:22]
Gretchen Rubin
Right, exactly. So what I realized is that with jfk, people either love JFK or they, like, love to hate jfk. Nobody was interested in, like, a nuanced picture of jfk. And so it didn't find its audience. You know, so. But I had a great time writing that book. So do I regret it? No. Do I wish it had found its audience? Yes, I do.
- [44:41]
David Duchovny
So. So sounds like money, sex, power, fame.
- [44:44]
Gretchen Rubin
Power, money, fame, sex.
- [44:46]
David Duchovny
Sorry. Power, money, fame.
- [44:49]
Gretchen Rubin
Even my agent can never get the order right.
- [44:52]
David Duchovny
Power, money, fame, sex. They get it. Power, money, fame, sex. Power, money, fame, sex.
- [44:57]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [44:58]
David Duchovny
Sounds like it might have been similar to what you're known for now. It sounds like it was more of a sociological kind of approach.
- [45:07]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, it's kind of the opposite of a Happiness Project. But the thing that's really fun about that book is that it's really written like a user's guide. And so, if you remember, way, way, way back, there was a book called the Preppy Handbook. It's like an examination, but as if it's a manual. And so to me, this was. I like form playing with form.
- [45:29]
David Duchovny
Well, the Happiness Project is a manual.
- [45:31]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. And so this one is explicitly like. It's sort of a dark manual for power, money, fame and sex.
- [45:39]
David Duchovny
Oh, interesting.
- [45:41]
Gretchen Rubin
It was a super fun book to write.
- [45:43]
David Duchovny
I didn't see that. It wasn't in my research. I'm gonna have to check that out. But just take me to that moment of jfk does badly. Does it feel like, well, this was a mistake. Like, I'm not a writer. This is not working out.
- [45:59]
Gretchen Rubin
You know, a really astute editor said to me, you know what, Gretchen? You're interested in kind of like an unusual approach to biography. But most people want a biography that's comprehensive, that includes new information. And I was like, I think you're right. Like, people. Like, nobody was gonna buy the next 40 ways. Cause the JFK one hadn't worked. So it was like, people are like, yeah, this isn't working. But fortunately for me, that's when I had the idea for the Happiness Project. Because I was like, I was stuck on a city bus, and I thought, what do I want from life anyway? I want to be happy, but I don't spend any time thinking about what is happiness. Can you make yourself happier? What does that even look like? And again, I got super interested, ran to the library, got a giant stack of books, started taking not. And it was just for me, because I was just curious. And then finally I was like, maybe this should be my next book. And so that was my next book. But it was partly because I was responding to the. Like, I kind of thought, oh, well, maybe I'll just be kind of this sort of kind of biographer for a long time. And I was like, no, that's not gonna work.
- [47:04]
David Duchovny
Did you feel a desperation or a panic, or do you remember those times at all? Did you just.
- [47:10]
Gretchen Rubin
I really didn't. I really didn't. And I think part of it was that I was like, I would do it anyway. You know what I mean?
- [47:16]
David Duchovny
There was an authenticity to it. There was an authenticity to it.
- [47:19]
Gretchen Rubin
It's Like a call. Yeah, it's almost like a caller. Almost like a. Almost like a. It's like. I wouldn't say a compulsion, but it's just a feeling like I'm gonna do it anyway. So I didn't have this feeling of like, am I gonna stop? It was like, can I figure out a way to do it for a living? Because I'm gonna do it anyway, right?
- [47:39]
David Duchovny
Yeah, I can relate to that. Because in my life, when I've done things from an authentic place, the success or failure of the thing is almost besides the point. I mean, of course I'd always rather it be a success. That's great. Everybody wants that. Sure. But I can put my head on my pillow at night and sleep very soundly if I knew, for lack of a better cliche, my heart was in the right place. Well, when I look at your. Your life, who do you see? I mean, it seems an American project to me. And who do you see as your precursors? Who were your mentors going, Benjamin Franklin.
- [48:24]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, sure, go back to old Benjamin Franklin. An auto.
- [48:28]
David Duchovny
Richard Almanac. Right. Poor Richard.
- [48:30]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, well, that and I love aphorisms. I actually have a book of aphorisms coming out.
- [48:35]
David Duchovny
Oh, good. I love aphorisms too.
- [48:37]
Gretchen Rubin
Who's your favorite? Do you have a favorite aphorist?
- [48:40]
David Duchovny
Oh, Emerson, Nietzsche. You know, I can find an aphorism anywhere. But who are yours?
- [48:48]
Gretchen Rubin
I want to bring back somebody who's been completely forgotten. Her name is Marie von Ebne Eschenbach. She's one of my favorites. But I love Oscar Wilde, I love George Orwell, but Benjamin Franklin, his autobiography is really. If there's anybody who's sort of into like the practical side of happiness, you know, he sets himself these virtues and, you know, he's just this person who just in his own cheerful way is like inventing bifocals and discovering electricity and founding a post office, or maybe he founded a library, or both, I forget. I mean, the guy was just doing everything. And so he's the sort of early American, you know, founding father who is all about a very practical approach to how would you make your life happier, healthier, more productive, more creative? And it's just a very delightful. So if anybody hasn't read it, I really recommend it. It's a lot of fun to read. He's really a great writer. Very funny. Very self deprecating too.
- [49:43]
David Duchovny
Sure. But going back to precursors, I don't mean this in a negative way, although I think people think of him negatively now. But there's A little bit of B.F. skinner in there. It's like conditioning. You're trying to get people to train themselves like pigeons, like dogs in a Skinner box or whatever. And I'm not one of these people that thinks human beings are, you know, the great shit and everything. It's like, I think we're. Like I said, I think we're animals. And I think if you're talking about training to make an animal more happy, well, okay, let's. I'm open. You know, But I think what I heard in kind of the list making and the. You know, you're very kind of. I don't know the word, but rigid. No, no, no, no. I don't think rigid, but I think. Yeah, I. I think list making.
- [50:36]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [50:38]
David Duchovny
Response and reward. You know, the whole idea of, like, okay, I'm going to do this behavior.
- [50:44]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. Like cognitive behavioral therapy.
- [50:47]
David Duchovny
Yeah, I'm gonna get a little treat, you know, which is maybe a bit of happiness, or, you know, I get that thing that I envied or whatever, whatever. And then I. Then I'm on my way to being more trainable. But I'm training myself. I mean, you're helping me train myself. You're not the Skinner of people. You're kind of giving them a blueprint. And I was wondering, you know. Yeah, I was just wondering.
- [51:13]
Gretchen Rubin
It's interesting. I had not ever thought of, like, thinking about, am I just trying to help everybody create, like, build their own Skinner box and live in it? But that's kind of. I'm gonna have to think through, like, whether the shoe fits, you know, whether the Skinner box fits. Because it is true that I do think that for most people, there's just certain facts about the way they go about the world, that if they try to take those into account, they're probably gonna be happier. For instance, if you're a night person, trying to make everything in your day later is gonna work better for you than trying to do something really early in the morning. You might say, well, it makes good sense, or there's all these reasons, or I want to train myself to be a morning person. Whereas I'm just sort of like. Well, if you're a night person, you're probably better off just trying to get everything later in the day because that's where you're naturally more energetic. So to me, that feels like a positive, like, embrace of the self. But could you accurately cast that in a Skinner boxy way? I kind of think you probably could. So, yes, we could frame them differently. We could frame These. Approach these. These strategies differently.
- [52:21]
David Duchovny
Yeah. The last question I'll ask you is, I do so much reading for this podcast, just reading around, and I trust the kind of serendipity of something coming into my purview just this morning, which has nothing to do with you, but I think it must, because it came to my attention, and I think it makes sense from what we were just talking about. But Mike Nichols said. What did he say? Oh, shit. I had it written down somewhere. But it's basically like the gist of it is, your act becomes your prison, in a way. Your act.
- [53:05]
Gretchen Rubin
Mmm, interesting.
- [53:08]
David Duchovny
And you are. It's not prison. It's not as negative as that, but it's something like that. And I'm such an idiot for not. It's such an easy quote to remember, and I forgot it. But anyway, you get the idea. And now you're fabulously successful. You've got podcasts, you've got school, basically workbooks, and actively engaged in this happiness project. Do you feel imprisonment at all?
- [53:38]
Gretchen Rubin
No, I really don't.
- [53:39]
David Duchovny
No.
- [53:40]
Gretchen Rubin
I mean, people always say, do you feel like you have to be happy? I'm like, no, I don't.
- [53:44]
David Duchovny
Not that you have to be happy, happy, but like. Like, this is. This is your work stuck in it.
- [53:50]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, well, the thing about happiness is that, like, I. I interpret it so broadly that it's like, okay, now I want to write about five senses. Yeah. Or I'm. I want to write about the empty nest. I'm like. I'll write about that. Like, happy. Like, anything. Anything that I'm interested in basically can fit in. So I find it very satisfying. And that, like, everything's sort of building, and I. I feel like I have a. Like, a base on which to understand more. So I do feel like I am growing in terms of deepening my understanding, but I feel like there. That, like, if I was gonna write about habits, like, I wrote better than before, which is all about the 21 strategies of habits. I loved writing that book. I love talking about habits. Like, it's one of my favorite subjects. But if everything that I did was about habits, if it wasn't just, like, one thing among several things, I think I would get pretty tired of it.
- [54:34]
David Duchovny
Your act becomes your enemy. That's the quote. Your act becomes your enemy.
- [54:38]
Gretchen Rubin
Your act becomes your enemy.
- [54:39]
David Duchovny
You know, and as an actor, you know, you can get typecast certain ways, whatever.
- [54:43]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, sure.
- [54:44]
David Duchovny
Or in life, you know, what we do, what we do so well can trap us. You know, this is the flip side to the Fear and the shame of failure is the trap of success. And so you're not feeling that at all. You're feeling good. You're feeling like you've created. What I hear you say is you created this big bag of your work and of your project, and a lot can fit into it. It's not just this little purse.
- [55:11]
Gretchen Rubin
That's how I feel. And I do feel like I've somehow by incredible good fortune, ended up in a place where what I do for a living is what I would be doing anyway. It's like what I want to be doing. And so, I mean, of course, there's drudge work and there's things that I don't enjoy and things that I dread and things that I procrastinate about and stuff. But in the end, it is what I love to do. For instance, one of the things I love to do is, as I read, I'll take notes. Like, anything that catches my eye or.
- [55:42]
David Duchovny
Is watch written or whatever on the Kindle is such a drag.
- [55:45]
Gretchen Rubin
Can't do it.
- [55:46]
David Duchovny
I have empathy on that. I gotta have a pen in my hand when I read.
- [55:49]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. Can't do it. And I'm like. I spend hours every week doing it, and I'm like, is this a waste of my time? No, it is not. I never know what's going to, like, be useful or be thought provoking. I have no way of knowing. It could be. I love children's literature. I read tons of books that are written for children, and a lot of times I get big ideas from children's books, you know, so you can't. It's funny. Like, you can't go to the Dewey do decimal system and look up, like, you know, deep thoughts or, you know, new ideas, right? You just. You kind of have to try to lay the groundwork.
- [56:22]
David Duchovny
Thank you, Gretchen, for talking to me today. It's been a pleasure. And thanks for putting up with me.
- [56:30]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, I so enjoyed it.
- [56:32]
David Duchovny
I think. And I remember the name Amanda Kelly on a paper. I can see it written on a paper that I'm grading, you know, so say hey for me. Good morning. Speaking some thoughts after conversation with Gretchen Rubin. I have the wrong glasses on. No wonder I can't see anything. Okay, that's better. Talking with Gretchen, you know, put me in touch with this notion because Gretchen is very much in touch herself with the truth. Her truth. And one that I think I agree with, that we are happy when we're plugged in. You know, we may be human beings, but a human doing is part of a community in a way. I'm not advocating, you know, against like Zen detachment in this case, because I look around and I see great strength and happiness in that as well. But I think from the way that I was raised, it's a long journey to get to that detachment. It might be too long. I don't know. I might be on that journey. I might not be. I might just be fooling myself because I still love to work and I still love to make and I still love to be used in a way. I love to be of use, being of use and being of service. Very, very close. Very close in definition. There's more Fail Better with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now and Apple Podcasts Fail Better is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Krupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Foreign.
- [59:45]
Gretchen Rubin
Hi everyone, Gloria Rivera here, and we are back for another season of no One Is Coming to Save Us, a podcast about America's childcare crisis. This season we're delving deep into five critical issues facing our country through the lens of childcare, poverty, mental health, housing, climate change and the public school system. By exploring these connections, we aim to highlight that childcare is not an isolated issue, but one that influences all facets of American life. Season 4 of No1 Is Coming to Save Us is out now, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [60:20]
Reshma Saujani
Are you in bed by 10? Can you feel your hormones raging more than ever? Do you wake up every day wondering, is this it? Guess what? You're not alone. Welcome to My so Called Midline Life, a weekly podcast hosted by me, Reshma Sajani. On this show, we're going to expose the con we've been sold about middle age, figure out what the fuck we want from our lives and how to get there. We'll have help from guests like Julia Louis Dreyfus, Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson and Alana Glaser. You can listen to My Soul Called Midlife ad free on Amazon Music.