← Fail Better with David Duchovny
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- [00:01]
Reshma Sajani
Hi, I'm Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls who Code. Look, I'd consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. I've written books, founded two successful nonprofits, and I'm raising two incredible kids. But here's the thing. I still wake up wondering, is this it? And if the best years are yet to come, when's that going to start? Join me on My so Called Midlife, my new podcast with Lemonada Media, where we're building a playbook for navigating midlife one episode at a time. Each week, I'll chat with extraordinary guests who've transformed their midlife crisis into opportunities for growth and newfound purpose. At some point, we all ask ourselves, is there more to life? I'm here to discover how to thrive in my second act right alongside you. My so Called Midlife is out now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ellie Kemper from the Office and Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt.
- [01:04]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
And this is my fantastically funny friend, Scott Eckert. Hi, everyone.
- [01:08]
Reshma Sajani
We host a podcast called Born to Love. It's a show where we talk to the people we love about the things they love.
- [01:15]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Each week, we bring on a celebrity guest to discuss their secret passion. Did you know that my friend Jenna Fisher loves Keanu Reeves movies? She does?
- [01:23]
Reshma Sajani
She does. And how about Al Roker?
- [01:26]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Samantha Bee? Tony Hawk? Jane Lynch? What do they love, Ellie? You have to listen to the show.
- [01:30]
Reshma Sajani
To find out, so check out Born to Love wherever you get your podcast from Lemonada Media. Lemonada.
- [01:43]
Ellie Kemper
Hey, failbetter listeners. We're taking a break this week, so I'm introducing you to a new show called My so Called Midlife, which is a new podcast by Reshma Sajani and Leminata Media. Reshma founded the successful nonprofit Girls who Code. She's written several books, and she's raising two beautiful children. Yet she still wakes up some days wondering if things are supposed to feel better than this. Her new podcast, My so Called Midlife, serves to rewrite the playbook for navigating midlife one episode at a time. Each week, she will chat with guests like Julia Louis Dreyfus, Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, Emily Oster, Chelsea Clinton, and more, who transformed their own midlives into opportunities for growth and newfound purpose. If you want to hear more episodes, search for My so Called Midlife. Wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find a link in the show notes to take you there. So here it is, My so Called Midlife.
- [02:39]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Midlife, for me, feels like more freedom than I really anticipated. I feel like I've had this really big vision for my life and that the past 42 and a half years have been, you know, not planting a handful of seeds, but planting, like enormous bags of seed. And I feel like midlife is starting.
- [03:03]
Reshma Sajani
To see all of the fruits of that labor. Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. When I think about someone in my life, a person who planted the seeds for their future, it's today's guest, Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. Justice Jackson is so impressive. After graduating from Harvard Law, she clerked at all three levels of the federal judiciary. She worked in private law practice, was the vice chair and commissioner on the US Sentencing Commission, and she served as a federal public defender. From the time she was a little girl, she hoped one day that she'd be appointed to the Supreme Court. And guess what? It happened. In her midlife, she made her dream come true. She's the first black woman and the first public defender to sit on the high court. Justice Jackson is also my friend. She recently wrote a memoir, lovely one, which brought me to tears more than once. In it, she's just so honest about the obstacles she faced. And so in today's interview, I wanted to talk to her about the love she's invited in her life to make it possible and how she centers kindness in literally everything she does. A kindness that is so key to helping her balance her two daughters, her career, her marriage and her health. Justice Jackson, welcome to my so called Midlife.
- [04:45]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Oh, thank you for having me. I'm delighted. How are you?
- [04:49]
Reshma Sajani
I'm so good. How are you?
- [04:51]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
I'm good. I miss you.
- [04:52]
Reshma Sajani
I miss you, too. And now the term started, right?
- [04:55]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
It's starting Monday. Yeah.
- [04:58]
Reshma Sajani
Well, thank you so much for doing this.
- [05:00]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
I'm delighted to do this.
- [05:02]
Reshma Sajani
So I don't know about you. I got out of bed this morning and I'm like, my whole body hurts. I'm getting old.
- [05:08]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes.
- [05:08]
Reshma Sajani
And I want to know one moment last week where you really felt your age.
- [05:13]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Oh, my goodness. I have felt my age a lot lately with all the travel related to the book. You know, you've been down and you drop a pin and you can't really get there as easily as you used to. And in the mornings, as you say, you know, I used to be a morning person, just literally jump up out of bed like, no need for an alarm. And now I'm struggling.
- [05:42]
Reshma Sajani
I want to start talking about the lovely one.
- [05:44]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes.
- [05:45]
Reshma Sajani
So the book begins with all of these incredible stories about your grandparents and your parents. And, you know, as a daughter of immigrants, my parents came as refugees. Like, I just. It really resonated with me, the values. Right. How you were raised and the closeness of everyone. What's the one thing that your parents really taught you?
- [06:10]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Well, I have to say, I think it would be that I have a voice and that I should use it. My father went back to law school when I was little. I was three, four years old, living on the campus of the University of Miami Law School with my dad across the table from me, studying in our kitchen. And my parents never really spoke to me in sort of baby talk. They always talked to me in full sentences. And I recall my dad asking me little questions about various things that he was learning and wanting to know my opinion. And so it kind of gave me a sense from very young that I was a part of this family, that I had an opinion that I could express. And I think it really relates to the time in which I was born relative to American history. And my parents, as African Americans, they had grown up in a period of segregation where their life prospects were limited by law. And I was born within 5, 6 years of the Civil Rights act and the Voting Rights act and the end of segregation. And I think that my parents really saw it as a window opening, you know, the opportunities that they didn't get to have. And so they wanted to position me to take advantage of everything. Everything. And so they loved me and they poured into me and they trained me. And I think it was this. That. The power of my own voice and the ability to speak out.
- [08:00]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, I love that. And there's something about that scene of you sitting at the table, your feet barely touch the ground, your father studying for law, and what's so powerful about that point? Your mom at that point is the breadwinner, Right. She's supporting your dad's dreams. And at that point, they're in the middle of their life.
- [08:20]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes.
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Reshma Sajani
They're in their midlife, right?
- [08:21]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes.
- [08:22]
Reshma Sajani
And their commitment to one another's hopes, dreams, successes, it reminded me so much of you and Patrick and what were the things that you learned watching them in their relationship that you incorporate in your relationship now?
- [08:37]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes, well, my parents were such great partners and have been throughout their 50 plus years of marriage. And, you know, Patrick's parents have been married for a similar length of time. And I think we just got really good role models around the sacrifices and the give and take and the support that is necessary to sustain a relationship like a marriage.
- [09:02]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. And it's not always easy.
- [09:05]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Exactly.
- [09:06]
Reshma Sajani
You have to make compromise. I want to come to that. So you married your first love, Right. You met Patrick. Wow. Right.
- [09:11]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes.
- [09:12]
Reshma Sajani
You date for seven years, and now you're married for 28 goals. What's your secret?
- [09:19]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Oh, my goodness. You know, I think one thing is that we were really good friends early on, that we really got to know each other very well. And that helped, I think, as we started to hit those rough spots and I think, you know, being friends with him. So on our wedding rings, we have inscribed, today, I will marry my friend.
- [09:43]
Reshma Sajani
That's so beautiful. So Patrick is a surgeon, so he's got a big job. I mean, you both have these highly demanding, incredibly stressful jobs. And I'm gonna ask you a question about how you don't get angry because. And I bring that up because there's a scene in your book. You're in labor with Talia, right?
- [09:59]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes.
- [09:59]
Reshma Sajani
Patrick gets paged and looks at you and says, I'll be right back. And for a minute, you're like, is this really happening right now?
- [10:11]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
So true. And I've not let him live that down for 20 something years.
- [10:16]
Reshma Sajani
I mean, how can you.
- [10:19]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
I mean, I think at the beginning, it was really, really hard, especially when the girls were little and they needed so much, and he had this demanding career that required him to be away for so long. I remember when I brought that infant baby home from the hospital, Patrick was still in residency. And it was brutal. I mean, it was really brutal. And there were times when I felt, you know, resentful and angry. But then, you know, I took a step back and understood that he was doing this in part for us, for our family. He needed to get to a point in his career where he could have more flexibility, and that was going to require him putting in the hours now. And similarly, you know, there were periods in my career where I had to really buckle down. And he was the one who supported a lot of our family activity. When I was clerking for the Supreme Court, for example, he would bring me lunch and dinner at the court. He would do, you know, drive me in because I was actually pregnant at the end of my clerkship. And so there's definitely been a give and take, but with a mutual understanding and respect for our. And our roles.
- [11:36]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. And I love that your book really details that I remember because I watched a movie about rbg and their relationship reminded me so much of yours. I remember, like, turning to my husband, like, why can't you be more like him? Because there's this perception, right. That only one person is sacrificing to get that big job. And it's so clear, as you describe in the book, that you're both actually negotiating, changing the pace of your career. You both are.
- [12:04]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Right.
- [12:04]
Reshma Sajani
In order to show up at home and show up for your career, how did you invite that kind of support? Because sometimes when someone loves you like that, believes in you like that, it's hard.
- [12:16]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yeah. I mean, it's.
- [12:17]
Reshma Sajani
It.
- [12:18]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
I'm not. This is not to say that building a life with someone who has similar dreams and aspirations and a lot going on professionally is an easy thing. And it is hard at times to be the one who's out in front and who is being doted on in that way.
- [12:42]
Reshma Sajani
I also think it's, you know, for some people, it's hard to accept that kind of love. And I think it comes a lot from your parents, too, because they loved you fiercely like that as well.
- [12:52]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
I absolutely believe that. You know, from a very, very young age, my parents were very intentional about encouraging me to do whatever I wanted to do. And I think, therefore, I was more able and willing to accept that same kind of support from my partner when.
- [13:13]
Reshma Sajani
He came along and attract that, too.
- [13:16]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes, exactly.
- [13:18]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. Ketanji, how do you still stay friends? I think about this. Nahal and I are best friends. Like, he is my best friend, but, like, with the kids and the dog and like, our careers is hard. It's hard. I actually don't know the last time we had a date night. So how do you now continue to stay best friends?
- [13:36]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
You know, I think you give each other grace. I think you realize that you're going through a period of time in which these other pursuits, whether it's, you know, family or work, are going to take up an enormous amount of time. It's sort of like the friendships that I have with some of my longtime girlfriends that we might go a couple weeks without, you know, touching base. But we know we need that not to have the pressure of having to communicate consistently. And then we just pick up where we've left off when we. When we. One of us surfaces. So similarly, I mean, there, you're going to just need to think about the fact that there are other things that you both are committed to doing and that you want to do together and not put so much pressure on yourself to continue with the date nights, you know, et cetera. Yeah.
- [14:31]
Reshma Sajani
It's almost like having the security and the ability to stay present. What are your tips?
- [14:40]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
I don't know that I have that many tips. But, you know, what you just said reminds me of when I get home and I'm exhausted. And when he gets home and he's exhausted and we're just sitting on the couch and not feeling the pressure to have to entertain each other. That's when we feel like we're really close. You know, you're close enough to me that I don't have to, like, go through the motions of talking to you just to make sure that you still think that I like you or whatever.
- [15:10]
Reshma Sajani
It's such a big thing. Right. It's why I'm. I mean, it's why I feel like I have, like, five friends. Cause these are the friends I can go on vacation with and not talk. Right, Exactly. Like, it's like we're just in each other's presence and that's it. It's like we're so close that we have almost, like, the security. Yeah, it's so. Yes, it's a really important thing, I think, for young people to know about, like, the success of marriage is about just being able to just exist with one another.
- [15:34]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes, absolutely.
- [15:36]
Reshma Sajani
So how, though, do you also create boundaries? You said you're a people pleaser. And so how have you in the family created these kind of boundaries?
- [15:48]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Well, we're still working on it. It's a work in progress. You know, I'm only. This is my third year on the court, so we are trying to figure out the new shape of our lives in this way. I think what I've tended to do is just only agree to do things that I know are going to expose me when I am willing to be exposed. So, in other words, I get asked to do a lot of things and I couldn't possibly do them all. And I now am very selective. Because if it's an event that's going to be during a court week, for example, I know I'm going to have so much energy and focus that I have to devote to my day job that I'm not going to be able to be available for the people that are talking to me during this event. So I'll probably say no. I pick and choose the things to try to preserve my energy. Because when I'm at the thing, I know I have to be available.
- [16:52]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. And you want to be.
- [16:54]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
And I want to be.
- [16:55]
Reshma Sajani
And that's really smart. That's a really good. That's a really good. Like, a really good tip. Because I think that that's it makes you almost feel better about saying no.
- [17:04]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
That's exactly right.
- [17:17]
Ellie Kemper
This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This month I'm making it a point to focus on gratitude, thanking the people in my life who show up for me and are always there, like my incredibly supportive family. But it's also important to direct some of that gratitude inward and remember to thank ourselves for the effort we put in every single day. Showing ourselves kindness isn't always easy, but taking the time to invest in your mental well being can be a powerful way to do just that. That's where BetterHelp can step in. Therapy can be a space to slow down, reflect and start giving yourself the care and attention you deserve. I know reaching out for support can feel intimidating. Sometimes we feel like we're supposed to handle it all on our own, but the truth is, you don't have to. Therapy isn't about having all the answers. It's about connecting with someone who can offer guidance and a fresh perspective, helping you build up a toolkit of skills that makes life feel a little less overwhelming. BetterHelp makes it convenient to find the right therapist for you, someone who gets it and can support you wherever you are. It's okay to seek help. In fact, choosing to prioritize your own well being is one of the most important ways to show your self appreciation. Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.comfailbetter today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L P.comfailbetter Today's podcast is sponsored by Strawberry Me. We talk a lot about the value of failure on this show, but working past setbacks can be a difficult process and one where you might want a little help. When most people think of coaching, they probably think it's just for CEOs or high powered executives. And the coaches are guys with muscles bulging out of their blazers delivering cliches about achievement. At Strawberry Me, we believe everyone deserves access to personal coaching. With coaches who are trained to help you navigate life's challenges. They can help you set and achieve your goals, whether that's improving your relationships, boosting confidence, or choosing the next move in your career. Whatever you need to help unlock your full potential. A StrawBerry membership offers one on one video sessions with your coach and secure messaging in between to keep you on track. This is real coaching with real people and real results, accessible to everyone who wants to find out how far they can go. Visit Strawberry Me failbetter and take a short quiz to get matched with the perfect Coach, plus get 20% off your first month membership. That's strawberry me, Failbetter.
- [20:02]
Reshma Sajani
Hi, I'm Emily Deschanel. And I'm Carla Gallo. And we're excited to tell you about Boneheads, our new Bones Rewatch podcast. I played Dr. Temperance Brennan. And I played Daisy Wick. And we are gonna watch from the very beginning. We're gonna watch the episodes, we're gonna reminisce, we're gonna laugh, we're gonna cry, we're gonna tell behind the scenes stories. We're gonna go on tangents. A lot of tangents. So whether you're a seasoned Bones fanatic or a newcomer looking to dip your toes in to the wild world of forensic anthropology, this show is for you. Boneheads from Lemonada Media is out now wherever you get your podcasts. I want to talk about your girls. I was so moved reading about your beautiful daughter Talia. And I want to read from your book. You say now upon hearing from her official diagnosis with autism spectrum disorder, you wrote, we could end our denial now. We could stop finally resisting the shape of things, stop desperately imagining some other dream of the future, and embrace the potential of what was. And I found your words so powerful. You're talking about your daughter. But I couldn't help thinking about the power of this mindset for so many of the challenges we face in life.
- [21:34]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes.
- [21:34]
Reshma Sajani
Can you tell me about how you came to this wisdom and what it felt like for you, putting it, you know, into action?
- [21:41]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Well, you know, it didn't come easily, for sure. You know, one of the things I talk about in the book is all the struggles. You know, my daughter was not diagnosed as autistic until seventh grade. And right before kindergarten, she had her first seizure that I talk about in the book. Very dramatic for us. Traumatic in a lot of ways. And between, you know, kindergarten and seventh grade, there were years of trying to figure out how to support her, what was going on. There were misdiagnoses. There were times where we had her tested and people said, no, she doesn't have, you know, know, neurological differences. And so there were. There were many, many, many hard nights and days to try to assess how to parent this very unusual kid. And so the moment that you read what you were referencing was the exhale that came after finally getting confirmation of what we thought could be going on and the permission to recognize that this is who she is. And now we have a way forward in how to support her, how to help her, how to help her grow into her best Self.
- [23:15]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [23:16]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
All the hard times, the prior times kept us thinking, well, if we could just find, you know, the magic bullet, the secret sauce, then she could go on and be like we are. You know, I mean, I think the thing that happens to a parent very naturally is that you have this baby, this beautiful baby, and you start envisioning all the wonderful things that they are going to be and do. And many of them at times are patterned after you. Yes.
- [23:51]
Reshma Sajani
And how you were raised. Right.
- [23:52]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
And how you were raised and who you are. And then if it's not turning out like that, you start feeling like you're doing something wrong. And I think we missed that. There's really nothing that we can do that she has to be who she is, and it's not up to us to shape or frame or change her in any way.
- [24:15]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. And you say that in the book, you said you were harder on your daughter than you should have been, harder on yourself than you should have been.
- [24:20]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes. Yes.
- [24:21]
Reshma Sajani
What do you mean by that? And, like, what do you wish you did differently?
- [24:24]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Well, one of the things that my parents did that I think was so successful for me was that they set high expectations and they encouraged me to achieve them. So my mother used to say, you know, I complain. I don't want to do this. I don't want, you know, I can't do this. She would say, I'm sorry, Ketanji, has this been done before?
- [24:46]
Reshma Sajani
I know.
- [24:46]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
I love that. Has a person done this? If a person has done this thing, then you can do it, too. And that was sort of her mindset and their mindset, and I was such a pleaser that I would work and work and work and finally achieve whatever it was. And that was my model for parenting. And what I tried to do, when my daughter would say, you know, I can't do this. I'm not, you know, and she would cry and be upset, and I would say, no, no, sweetie, you got it. You can do it.
- [25:19]
Reshma Sajani
You know, has someone else done it? Exactly right.
- [25:22]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
And I didn't really appreciate that because of who she is, uniquely, there were things that were going to be so challenging for her that that same model of parenting was not going to work.
- [25:37]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [25:38]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
I regret in a way that I didn't see earlier, that she needed a different way.
- [25:45]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. But you did learn that you can't parent both your child the same way.
- [25:49]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
That's true. That's true. Every child is different. Our daughters ended up going to different schools throughout most of their lives because they were different environments. And we have different kids, you know, and you have to let your children reveal themselves to be who they are.
- [26:06]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. And it's so hard not to imprint. I always say, maybe God didn't give me daughters because it would have been so hard for her. Right. In my expectations. Whereas I got two boys. I'm like, oh, you can be whatever. You know what I mean? One of the things that you said in your book also, I think it was so powerful. You said, if I really had understood what she was going through, I would have quit. But by the end, your daughter's thriving, like, everything works out. But just imagine if you quit, we would not have you on the Supreme Court right now. That's true.
- [26:40]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
I mean, it is true. But I guess I wanted to really be transparent about the challenges. I mean, part of my writing all of these things is that I hope that other parents and people who are going through similar struggles will understand that it's not just them, that, you know, successful people, people who've gotten to do things professionally, that they have also been through some things, and that maybe that'll be motivation to just keep going. Because you can combine a successful career with a family life and even one that has challenges.
- [27:23]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. We make it so hard for women to be moms and have dreams. Right. To feel like you're a devoted mother and a really great judge. You know, were there moments where you had some doubt that you just couldn't. You weren't gonna be able to do both things?
- [27:38]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Oh, absolutely. You know, in the book, I talk about how many different jobs I've held from the moment of ending my clerkships and having my daughter, the first daughter, to getting on the Supreme Court. I had like a dozen different jobs because I was looking for the kind of work environment that would enable me to be fulfilled, but also there for my family. Early on, for example, I actually shifted to non litigation position, to doing some mediation work, which I really didn't like that much because it was not what I was trained to do. And I remember thinking, okay, well, that's it. You know, this is going to be what I do for the rest of my life. Because there was not clear what the path was to get back into the kinds of legal work that I was interested in. But, you know, things work out. You know, when you work hard and you believe and you have faith, things work out.
- [28:54]
Reshma Sajani
I think a lot of women still have admissions in midlife, but they're not sure how to get there because they're overwhelmed by life. What advice do you have for them?
- [29:04]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
I think you have to hold on to that ambition, don't abandon it, but you do have to focus on where you are right now. It's sort of like a two prong strategy. Know that you can get there, that it is worth continuing to think about and planning for and trying to do that long term goal. But to the extent possible, be present with the stage that you were in and try to find enjoyment where you are. You know, I used to have a placard on my wall that said, bloom where you are planted. And that reminded me that even though I knew I wanted to do this big thing, I'm planted here right now. And so I'm gonna give it my all where I am.
- [30:03]
Reshma Sajani
That's really powerful. There's a scene in your book that I really resonated with. Right. You're coming home from work, you're about to do the second shift, right?
- [30:12]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes.
- [30:13]
Reshma Sajani
And you pull up into the Safeway parking lot and you just take a nap for 20 minutes. I do this not in the Safeway parking lot, but lock myself in my room. Do you still do that now? Now you're in a lifetime appointment. You're holding the entire country on your shoulders. Your girls are grown, but they still need you. Patrick, you know what I mean? You still have your parents. We both have aging parents. How do you still find time for yourself?
- [30:39]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
You know you have to make it. When I'm getting overwhelmed, I try to take a few minutes and work on some crafts project that I started a long time ago and haven't finished yet. I'll do a row of crochet. You know, I like the early mornings. I'm actually a morning person. And so I'll set my clock a little bit early, actually, and allow me to have the quiet of the morning. And I hired a boxing trainer, which I highly recommend.
- [31:16]
Reshma Sajani
You told me about this. Tell me more.
- [31:18]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Well, no, I mean, you have to stay physically fit. I feel like so much of one's ability to deal with the pressures psychologically and emotionally also is connected to your physical stamina.
- [31:37]
Reshma Sajani
Are you boxing every day?
- [31:39]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
No, no. Once a week. He comes to the court.
- [31:41]
Reshma Sajani
Oh, I love it.
- [31:41]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
He comes to the court.
- [31:42]
Reshma Sajani
Is there a boxing ring in the court?
- [31:44]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
There's a. No, it's not a ring. It's a gym. It's our gym. We reserve the gym for an hour.
- [31:52]
Reshma Sajani
Oh, my God, that's incredible. Is it hard to be in a lifetime appointment?
- [31:57]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
You know, it is and it isn't. I mean, it's sort of. It's both liberating and confining at the same time in a way because tell.
- [32:06]
Reshma Sajani
Me how those two things fit.
- [32:08]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
It's liberating because you can decide what you think is right, do what you think is right, and not worry about yourself, you know, job or fortunes or whatever. And I think that's sort of the point of having lifetime appointments. It's confining because especially this job, there's really no next step for you as a justice. And so I'm used to kind of having a job and moving on after three or four years and so kind of knowing that this is it.
- [32:44]
Reshma Sajani
No, we're not. You're not allowed to leave.
- [32:47]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Knowing that this is it, you know, is a little. It feels like the walls can close in pretty quickly in that way. But it's important to continue to do the work and to know that you're making progress even in a position like this.
- [33:05]
Reshma Sajani
It's like midlife liberating and confining.
- [33:08]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes, exactly.
- [33:09]
Reshma Sajani
Good metaphor for midlife.
- [33:24]
Scott Eckert
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- [34:31]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Hey everyone, it's me, Ricki Lake. Despite all my success, I've been through some serious challenges. Struggles with my weight, with hair, grief, everything. But despite it all, I have managed to create a life filled with ease and a whole lot of fun. Finally, in midlife, I feel like I have mastered the art of choosing happiness. And I want to share that Hope, love and good health with you. Listen to the High Life with Ricky Lake from Lemonada Media. Out now. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [35:09]
Scott Eckert
Get ready for a wild mythical adventure. Melissa McCarthy leads an all star cast in a hilarious new podcast, Hildy the Barback and the Lake of Fire. In this fantastical fictional tale, McCarthy stars as Hildy, an unlikely hero from the land of Golgorath who must embark on an epic quest with an unlikely team of warriors to save the world. Starring Melissa McCarthy, Ben Falcone, Octavia Spencer, Glenn Close, and more, Hildy the Barback and the Lake of Fire spins a legendary laugh out loud tale you won't want to miss. Hildy the Barback and the Lake of Fire is out now. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [35:59]
Reshma Sajani
For people who don't know Ketanji, you are so kind.
- [36:03]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Oh my goodness, you are.
- [36:04]
Reshma Sajani
You are so kind. We met on a board. I'll never forget. I was so nervous and you, you saved me a seat. It was like, and made me feel like you have been waiting for me. Right. And it did. It was, I'll never forget it. And I, you know, and I feel like you are like that in your life. I know you are like that in your life. And it's hard when you're juggling all these things to, to remember to kind of lead with kindness and to show up for others. How do you do that?
- [36:33]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yeah, well, you know, I think that kindness is a function of humility. And in the book I talk about when I was very young learning some lessons in humility that have stuck with me that, you know, I really do know and believe that there but for the grace of God go I, that I, I have the things that I have. And I'm in the position that I'm in, you know. Yes. Because of my hard work, but also because of great good fortune and favor and blessings.
- [37:11]
Reshma Sajani
Yes.
- [37:11]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
And so with that mindset, I feel the need to be kind to the people that I interact with. And I think it's really important, especially when you're talking about people with whom you work, people who you regularly interact with. Kindness is crucial. I also tell the story in the book of a speech that was given my college graduation that was so powerful to me that I remember it even to this day. The basic story that was told in the speech was about a man who'd become a very prominent demolition expert and he was flying first class everywhere. And as it turned out, he never learned to read. And so he was sitting on the plane and asking his Seatmate to read the menu to tell him what was on it. And he ended up explaining that years before, he had gone to a community college and said, I'd like to learn how to read. This is when he was maybe in his 30s. And the woman at the front desk laughed and said, you must be kidding. And he was so humiliated that he turned and left and never went back and never tried to actually get any formal training in reading. And the person who told the speech said, you know, that the title of the speech was no insignificant words, that if that woman had just said fantastic, it would have changed this man's life forever. And so he was explaining that as college students, we had the responsibility now to understand that our words were significant, that they meant things to other people and to be kind to the people that we interacted with. And I've never forgotten.
- [39:16]
Reshma Sajani
I'm never gonna forget this. That's such an important thing, I think, to teach ourselves and our children. So I wanna talk about God. I think that's a lot of what brought you and I together and I think, connected. It's a big theme in your life? It's a big theme in my life, and it's a lot about, I think, how we probably both find peace. I have gotten into this practice with the family where we try to pray together every night. I start my mornings. You know, we have our. In Hinduism, you have your version of kind of gospel music. It's called bhajans. And my parents used to listen to it, you know, in the morning or in the car. So, like, I've lately started that practice too, which has been so soothing. What are some practices you employ?
- [40:02]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Well, I do. I listen to gospel a fair amount, actually. I have a playlist that I get on the treadmill, too. And then it runs in my head, you know, throughout the day, little phrases and refrains. You know, at times, we have done a practice that a friend of mine does, which is really focus on what you're thankful for. Not just at Thanksgiving time, but, you know, at other times. And articulating that, because I think that really helps to center the higher being that is in our lives.
- [40:47]
Reshma Sajani
Oh, I love that. That's beautiful. So you wrote there were a few people who really knew about your dream to be Supreme Court justice. Why'd you keep it a secret?
- [40:57]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Oh, my goodness. It's the kind of thing you can't really walk around saying you want to do. I mean, it's really like being struck by lightning. So you certainly, you know. And I think, too, that when you have a big dream, if you articulate it, there's always the fear of failure. You know, if people know that this is something you're shooting for and then you don't make it, you're very exposed in a way that I think I was afraid of. So if I didn't tell anybody and then I didn't do it, then fine. Now I will say I did say in my college yearbook or my high school yearbook that I wanted to be a federal judge.
- [41:45]
Reshma Sajani
Yep.
- [41:45]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
And I think I got that idea because I had been introduced to Constance Baker Motley.
- [41:51]
Reshma Sajani
Can you tell everybody who she is?
- [41:52]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Constance Baker Motley was the first federal female African American judge. And she was a civil rights lawyer before she became a judge and also was in New York City politics for a bit. But where she was most well known is she represented a number of civil rights figures during the Thurgood Marshall era and helped to craft the strategy for Brown versus the board and was just brilliant. She also was the first African American woman to argue before the Supreme Court. She argued something like 10 cases and won nine of them. So she was just incredible. And she happens to be my birthday twin. But it's interesting because she was born 49 years to the day before me. And the difference in our career prospects, ultimately, just because of that time difference, is striking. You know, I have no doubt that she could have been on the Supreme Court, that she would have been an excellent justice. But she was born in a time where that wasn't possible for women, not to mention black women. And so I just feel so grateful and so fortunate to follow in her footsteps in this way.
- [43:16]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. Your book took me in a lot of. A lot of emotional ways. I feel like I'm gonna cry now. It was so powerful. And I was trying to figure out, like, what's creating this emotion inside of me. And I think it was this feeling of hope, but it was also this feeling that you were able to get here. And, yes, you face struggle, yes, you face challenges, but the world also collided for you that the message is also. For women. It doesn't have to be this hard all the time. And then when it. When it works out, you. It feels different. Like, you were saying that when you got the call, it was almost like you heard the ocean. It was like you heard love, you heard God. Right. It was joy. Because your journey was joyful.
- [44:07]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes. No. I mean, you said it better than. Than I could. And I. My grandmother used to say when I was very, very, very young, that I was a blessed child. And I've carried that both in my head and in my heart throughout my life because I feel that I feel grateful for the opportunities that I have, and that gratitude helps me to get through the hard times. She used to also say that to whom much is given, much is required. And so the hard times were the requirement for the joy that I feel about getting to serve the American people in this way, getting to be the mom of two incredible kids and being in this life.
- [44:59]
Reshma Sajani
So I want to close up here. You did write, you had two dreams.
- [45:05]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes.
- [45:06]
Reshma Sajani
It was to be the first black female Supreme Court justice on Broadway.
- [45:12]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
That's true.
- [45:14]
Reshma Sajani
So when are we going to Broadway?
- [45:16]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
You know, I'm available if someone has a play that they would like.
- [45:20]
Reshma Sajani
Someone is listening right now. Judge Jackson is available.
- [45:27]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
No, I love acting. I did a lot of it early on. I try to get to the theater as much as I can. So, yes, I'm willing to entertain all scripts.
- [45:39]
Reshma Sajani
Okay, so you're still keeping this dream, right? It's still live?
- [45:42]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
- [45:45]
Reshma Sajani
I love it. So it's like. Because, you know, it's true. Like, in midlife, you still need the thing, like, especially when you've already gotten there, Right?
- [45:51]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Exactly.
- [45:52]
Reshma Sajani
All right, so that's our mission community, is to get the justice in Broadway. This was so wonderful.
- [46:01]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Thank you. Great.
- [46:03]
Reshma Sajani
Thank you for doing well. Thank you for being on the pod, and thank you. Thank you for this book.
- [46:08]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
Oh, well, I am just so delighted that you liked it, that you are recommending it. It was a labor of love, and I'm glad that that's.
- [46:35]
Reshma Sajani
Okay. Midlifers, the first thing you must do after listening to this interview is go read Justice Jackson's book. Ah. It gave me all the feels. So much hope, so much light in this interview. It gave me some really great takeaways on how to really live my midlife. Number one, lead with kindness, always. Number two, being kind doesn't mean you have to give up your boundaries. Setting time for yourself is maybe the best thing you can do to truly be present and genuinely show up for others. And third, if you got a dream, even if it's as big as Broadway, don't ever give up on it. Bloom where you are planted, and the fruits of your labor will eventually pay off. Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson is a Supreme Court justice and the author of Lovely One. Her book is out now, so make sure you grab a copy wherever you buy your books. All right, that's it for our show. See you all next week. Bye. There's more of My so Called Midlife with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Midlife Advice that didn't make it into the show. Subscribe now. In Apple Podcasts, I'm your host, Rashmi Sajani. Our producer is Claire Jones. This series is sound designed by Ivan Karaev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Korayev and performed by Ryan Jewell, Ivan, Kristen Korayev and Karen Waltok. Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lepore. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax, and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. And let's let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks for listening. See you next week. Bye. Hi everyone. Gloria Rivera here. And we are back for another season of no One Is Coming to Save Us, a podcast about America's childcare crisis. This season, we're delving deep into five critical issues facing our country through the lens of childcare, poverty, mental health, housing, climate change and the public school system. By exploring these connections, we aim to highlight that childcare is not an isolated issue, but one that influences all facets of American life. Season four of no One Is Coming to Save Us is out now, wherever you get your podcast, Are you in bed by 10? Can you feel your hormones raging more than ever? Do you wake up every day wondering, is this it? Guess what? You're not alone. Welcome to My so Called Midlife, a weekly podcast hosted by me, Reshma Sajani. On this show, we're going to expose the con we've been sold about middle age, figure out what the fuck we want from our lives and how to get there. We'll have help from guests like Julia Louis Dreyfus, Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, and Ilana Glaser. You can listen to my so Called Midlife ad free on Amazon Music.