Fail Better with David Duchovny: "Jia Tolentino Battles The Internet"
In the episode titled "Jia Tolentino Battles The Internet," hosted by David Duchovny on Lemonada Media's "Fail Better" podcast, Duchovny engages in a deep and introspective conversation with Gia Tolentino, a renowned culture critic and staff writer for The New Yorker. This episode explores themes of failure, creativity, the pervasive influence of the internet, and the challenges of parenting in the digital age. Below is a detailed summary capturing the key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions from their dialogue.
1. Introduction to Gia Tolentino
[01:49] David Duchovny:
Duchovny opens the episode by introducing Gia Tolentino, highlighting her background and her impactful work. He references her 2019 collection of essays, Trick Reflections on Self Delusion, praising it as "one of the first brilliant books on the Internet that was really getting into the dangers of what that world was becoming at the time and has become since." He notes Gia's prophetic voice in analyzing internet culture and her evolving perspective as a mother.
2. The Intersection of Success and Personal Fulfillment
[05:47] Gia Tolentino:
Gia shares her early aspirations as an English major and her initial foray into writing fiction. She recounts working on a novel titled Girls, which tragically fell apart when her backpack was stolen during her time in the Peace Corps. This setback profoundly impacted her, culminating in a moment of realization to continue writing regardless of commercial success.
Quote:
"I was devastated. Like, I was literally... my friends were sort of picking me up off the floor." [05:32]
3. The Compulsion to Write and Creative Imperfection
[08:42] Gia Tolentino:
Gia discusses the inherent compulsion to write, describing it as essential to her being "thoughtful" and "observant." She emphasizes that writing is a medium through which she processes and expresses her inner world, making it a vital practice despite its challenges.
Quote:
"I feel like I have no access to my brain without writing. I don't know if you ever feel like that." [09:11]
4. The Internet's Impact on Human Consciousness
[09:00] Gia Tolentino:
A significant portion of the episode delves into how the internet shapes human consciousness. Gia critiques the internet's role in creating an "uncanny sort of eternal present" that erases depth and historicity, leading to a flat plane of immediate and superficial interactions.
Quote:
"It's like this flat plane where everything is infinitely and immediate, immediately available." [11:14]
She contrasts this with traditional forms of knowledge acquisition, which required physical effort and deep engagement, arguing that the internet's instantaneous access undermines meaningful cognitive development.
5. Surveillance and Addiction: The Dark Side of Technology
[14:31] Gia Tolentino:
Gia and Duchovny explore the idea of the internet as a surveillance tool that manipulates user behavior to maximize engagement. She highlights the addictive nature of modern technologies, which are designed to retain attention through constant micro-targeting and interactivity.
Quote:
"The phone requires you to be like this very precisely micro-targeted combination of monetizable demographics." [16:48]
6. Parenting in the Age of Digital Surveillance
[15:10] David Duchovny:
Duchovny poses a poignant question about parenting: whether to shield children from the digital world's realities or to prepare them to navigate it as it exists.
Quote:
"What is our duty as parents? Is it to raise them to live in the world that we thought best or the one that we liked best, or to raise them in the world that exists?" [14:31]
[15:31] Gia Tolentino:
Gia reflects on using digital devices as practical tools (e.g., using her phone as a babysitter) while also hoping her children will find authentic, presence-based activities that reinforce human connection and empathy.
Quote:
"The most profound thing you can do is fully subsume yourself in someone else's reality." [16:46]
7. The Right to Be Forgotten and Personal Autonomy
[31:11] Gia Tolentino:
The conversation shifts to the "right to be forgotten," a legal principle in the EU's GDPR that allows individuals to erase personal information from online platforms. Gia frames this as a spiritual assertion of selfhood against the instrumentalization by surveillance technologies.
Quote:
"There is selfhood that is removed from... instrumentalization." [31:38]
8. Embracing Failure as a Catalyst for Growth
[26:19] David Duchovny:
Duchovny introduces the core theme of the podcast—embracing failure. He discusses how societal pressures, exacerbated by technology, make it difficult for children to experience and accept failure.
Quote:
"It's a dangerous place for kids to make mistakes, period." [26:19]
[27:58] Gia Tolentino:
Gia shares a personal story about her four-year-old daughter struggling with imperfection while cutting shapes. This anecdote illustrates the broader issue of children internalizing a fear of failure.
Quote:
"Let's do something easier. I'll give you this triangle." [28:01]
9. Creativity, Perfectionism, and the Writer's Struggle
[41:34] Gia Tolentino:
Gia recounts her experience of writing a novel post-MFA, which she ultimately deemed "objectively bad" and shelved. She reflects on the heartbreak of seeing her personal creative space become a public endeavor.
Quote:
"I realized, like, that sacred space of just the thing that I liked... was over." [40:06]
[45:55] David Duchovny:
Duchovny shares his own challenges with creativity, questioning whether his work truly embodies creativity or if it's merely an imperfect translation of his intentions.
Quote:
"Is this what I want to be creating? Is this creative?" [45:06]
10. The Value of Imperfection in Art and Life
[44:34] Gia Tolentino:
Gia emphasizes that the struggle and imperfection inherent in the creative process are what give art its meaning and depth. She argues that without this friction, the essence of creation is lost.
Quote:
"The whole purpose of trying to make any kind of art... requires kind of intense human labor." [43:00]
11. Concluding Reflections: Failure as an Opportunity
In the episode's conclusion, both Duchovny and Tolentino reinforce the idea that failure is not merely a setback but an essential component of personal and creative growth. By embracing failure better, individuals can cultivate resilience, empathy, and a deeper understanding of themselves and the world around them.
[47:56] David Duchovny:
"Even though we rarely talk about, like a failure per se, we always kind of circle back to some situations that brought great pain through expectations not filled." [47:56]
Notable Quotes with Timestamps
-
Gia Tolentino:
"I feel like I have no access to my brain without writing. I don't know if you ever feel like that." [09:11] -
David Duchovny:
"What is our duty as parents? Is it to raise them to live in the world that we thought best or the one that we liked best, or to raise them in the world that exists?" [14:31] -
Gia Tolentino:
"There is selfhood that is removed from... instrumentalization." [31:38] -
Gia Tolentino:
"The whole purpose of trying to make any kind of art... requires kind of intense human labor." [43:00] -
David Duchovny:
"Is this what I want to be creating? Is this creative?" [45:06]
Concluding Thoughts
"Fail Better with David Duchovny" masterfully intertwines personal narratives with broader societal critiques, presenting failure not as a mere negative outcome but as a transformative opportunity. Gia Tolentino's insights into the internet's impact on consciousness, combined with her reflections on creativity and parenting, offer listeners a nuanced understanding of navigating modern challenges. This episode serves as a compelling reminder that embracing and understanding failure can lead to profound personal growth and societal advancement.