← Fail Better with David Duchovny
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- [00:01]
Reshma Sajani
Hi, I'm Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls who Code. Look, I'd consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. I've written books, founded two successful nonprofits, and I'm raising two incredible kids. But here's the thing. I still wake up wondering, is this it? And if the best years are yet to come, when's that going to start? Join me on My so Called Midlife, my new podcast with Lemonada Media, where we're building a playbook for navigating midlife one episode at a time. Each week, I'll chat with extraordinary guests who've transformed their midlife crisis into opportunities for growth and newfound purpose. At some point, we all ask ourselves, is there more to life? I'm here to discover how to thrive in my second act, right alongside you. My so Called Midlife is out now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ellie Kemper from the Office and Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. And this is my fantastically funny friend, Scott Eckert.
- [01:07]
Ellie Kemper
Hi, everyone.
- [01:08]
Reshma Sajani
We host a podcast called Born to Love. It's a show where we talk to the people we love about the things they love.
- [01:15]
Ellie Kemper
Each week, we bring on a celebrity guest to discuss their secret passion.
- [01:18]
Reshma Sajani
Did you know that my friend Jenna Fisher loves Keanu Reeves movies?
- [01:23]
Ellie Kemper
She does, she does.
- [01:24]
Reshma Sajani
And how about Al Roker, Samantha Bee, Tony Hawk, Jane Lynch?
- [01:28]
Ellie Kemper
What do they love? Ellie?
- [01:29]
Reshma Sajani
You have to listen to the show to find out. So check out Born to Love wherever you get your podcast from. Lemonada Media.
- [01:39]
Ellie Kemper
Lemonada.
- [01:43]
David Duchovny
Okay, I'm starting to record something for you. I just gotta say, off the bat, I am so bad with anything technological. I've spent the last 10 minutes fucking this up and, oh, man, it's so frustrating to me. All right, all right. I think I got everything working now. You're hearing my voice, right? We're making a podcast. It's called Fail Better and I'm David Duchovny. Why am I making a podcast? The best answer I can come up with is that I felt like I've been failing my entire life. So on some level, I can speak from plenty of experience. I've had personal failures, like we all have. I've had professional failures, like we all have. I have things that I've been called as an actor. I had a high profile divorce. I had a magical mystery tour through rehab. We don't have to get into specifics now, but stay tuned. Maybe we will. There's a sense in which failure looms over us, and I want to know what's good about that. And I want to know what's bad about that, what's inhibiting about that, what is pushing us forward to be better, and what is holding us back in shame. That's what I want to get into. That would be a wonderful result of this, if even a little bit of shame in our lives could fall away. You know, one of my most painful professional failures is kind of what prompted the whole idea for this podcast. I was in Canada shooting a movie, and my movie House of D that I wrote and directed, the first movie that I directed, had just come out in the States. And what I read is in bold letters, david Duchovny's house of D gets an F. An F. An F. And the. You know, the hairs on my neck started to do weird things. I could feel sweat dropping from my armpit to my waist. I could feel my ears getting red. I had vertigo. Just that. I don't know what else to call it. But, like, when you. When you just feel shame or humiliation, and it's a real interior feeling, like you're sent kind of deeply inside yourself in some kind of childhood shame. And the first line of the review was, have David Duchovny's brains been abducted by aliens? Good one. Yeah, it was a good one. Because it. I mean, that just went. You know, it hurt. I get to my trailer, and I'm still, like, in this kind of vibrating, you know, dizzying, jittery state. Like, I'd had 10 cups of coffee, but it was like, shame coffee, the best, strongest coffee of all. But then I thought, you know, I have a job to do. These people have hired me to act on their movie. You know, my review from another movie is not their problem, not their interest. So I kind of tell myself I got to suck it up. I got to figure out a way to go out there and do decent work today. Even do good work. You know, do work. And so I do that. I go out and I have a day. I can't remember if the work was good or bad or indifferent. I suppose it was good enough. And then I went home, went to bed, and I woke up, and I feel fantastic. I've never felt better. And I remember, oh, that paper. Oh, that review. And I realized in that moment that I felt so light and free is because my whole life, I'd been terrified of getting an F. From school on, you know, from childhood on, just like an F. I think at some point in my head, I made the equation, F equals death. And here I was on a Saturday morning in Montreal and the sky was blue, and I was breathing air, and I was drinking coffee, and I was feeling good, and I'd had my F because I realized that you don't die when you get an F. And I'm so happy now, all these years later, to have gotten that F and to have been somewhat freed from the tyranny of pass fail of A, B, C, D. Why did they leave out E? What happened to E? Why can't E be a grade? Why do they go from D to F? I guess because of failure. Fail Better is a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. This is my very first interview. It's my very first interview that I've ever done. I've been an interviewee. I've never been an interviewer. And it's a different seat, it's a different vibe. But luckily, my first time is with a man who I've been fortunate enough to fail alongside a few times over the years. He lasted only four episodes on Saturday Night Live. His sketch comedy show won an Emmy after it had already been canceled. He is the man who directed the Cable Guy, and he's responsible for Zoolander 2. That's right. It's Ben Stiller, my friend. And here's our conversation. Hey, there you are.
- [07:36]
Ellie Kemper
How's it going, man? All right.
- [07:37]
David Duchovny
How are you?
- [07:38]
Ellie Kemper
I had to get all. Make sure I had my cup of coffee ready.
- [07:41]
David Duchovny
I know I got one right here.
- [07:42]
Ellie Kemper
Good.
- [07:43]
David Duchovny
I'm just gonna slam it at some point.
- [07:45]
Ellie Kemper
How you doing?
- [07:46]
David Duchovny
I'm good. Thanks for doing this.
- [07:48]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah. I'm so into it. Look, I, I. It's actually, I think, a really good idea.
- [07:55]
David Duchovny
Well, I see. The thing is, it's nice that you say that, because I don't really know. You know, I have this idea that it's a good idea.
- [08:01]
Ellie Kemper
Right.
- [08:02]
David Duchovny
But I. I'm not even sure how it happens or how it takes form, which is kind of exciting, but also, you know, nauseous making.
- [08:09]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah, I know.
- [08:10]
David Duchovny
On the other side.
- [08:10]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah. Taking a chance. But there's so much to talk about in that world, I guess. I don't know.
- [08:15]
David Duchovny
I know. I know. What I wanted to say to you was, do you remember how we came to do Zoolander together? I say together. I had a small part in it.
- [08:26]
Ellie Kemper
But, you know, small yet pivotal role, let's face it, very important.
- [08:30]
David Duchovny
Do you remember how it happened?
- [08:32]
Ellie Kemper
Not quite.
- [08:33]
David Duchovny
So you sent the script, or the producer sent the script to Taya to read for some role, and it was lying around the house, and I was like, what's this. And she said, oh, that's a Ben Stiller movie. And I said, why? Ben Stiller is not sending me a script. He's sending you a script. Well, can I read it? And then I read it and I think I got in touch with your reps and said I would love to do anything that you want me to do. And you offered me the brother role or the hand model. And I thought, I'll do the hand model. I think I can understand that. So we go and we're on set and we're shooting. What was that island off the coast of New York City?
- [09:17]
Ellie Kemper
Roosevelt Island. Right, right across from the U.N. yeah.
- [09:21]
David Duchovny
So we're shooting that scene and I've got this crazy monologue basically with a few interruptions from Zoolander. What you stumbled upon goes way deeper than you could ever fathom. The fashion industry has been behind every major assassination over the last 200 years. And behind every hit, a card carrying male model. We did it like three, four, five times. And the fourth or fifth time I fucked up. I. I flubbed the line or whatever. And you and Christine both said finally. And I was just so liberated by that because there I. I was trying to be perfect, you know, I was trying to get it right, get it right, get it right. And I just wanted to. You know, that was like a. A moment of gratitude I had for you as a director, as a creative artist and everything to just recall that. To recall that moment.
- [10:15]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah. Wow. I didn't remember that part of it. I do remember from that scene that I think I screwed up my line and said, but why male models? Twice, a couple times. And we ended up leaving it in the movie. It seemed like Derek was just stupid when it was really just me.
- [10:32]
David Duchovny
Why male models?
- [10:35]
Ellie Kemper
But why male models?
- [10:38]
David Duchovny
You serious? I just, I just told you that a moment ago.
- [10:43]
Ellie Kemper
Right. Everything, you know, you're talking about is I so identify with and you know, like a little moment like that on a set. I mean, it's so scary sometimes to just. Especially if you don't know the people. We didn't know each other really.
- [10:59]
David Duchovny
No, we didn't.
- [11:00]
Ellie Kemper
And I was just so excited that you wanted to be a part of it. And I remember being like nervous, you know, with you there too. Wanting it to work out, you know, like wanting you to have a good experience and wanting this stuff.
- [11:11]
David Duchovny
That's ridiculous.
- [11:12]
Ellie Kemper
No, no, but for real, you know, because like I just like Dave Duchovny, cool actor guy who wanted, you know, I reached out about being in the movie and I was Jumped at the chance. But I think you really do appreciate those little moments. I remember when I was, like, one of the first jobs I ever had was playing a. A tough guy in a Bette Midler movie, this movie called Stella. And I played her daughter's tough, like, wrong side of the tracks boyfriend, which is, you know, a role I ended up getting typecast in for years and years after. But I. You know, it was like, maybe like my second or third role in a movie. You know, one scene or one or two scenes, and I had to, like. She was, like, grilling some food on a barbecue outside of her apartment, and we were, like, on the porch, and I was trying to be tough, and so I took a piece of meat off the barbecue and I ate it. It was so ridiculous. But God bless the director. His name is John Ehrman, and Bet for giving me this opportunity to play this guy. And I was so nervous, trying to be cool. And I remember the script supervisor, who's in charge of keeping track of the continuity, that you do the same thing every take said, oh, no, no, no. You picked it up with your left hand, or you picked it up on this line, the last take, you should pick it up there. And I was so nervous because I'd never. That type of situation. And I remember the director just, like, jumped in and said, no, no, no, don't. Don't worry. Don't worry. He hasn't found it yet. Let's just let him do his thing. And that, like, it was like a little moment like that, like, you're talking about that. I always remembered that the director was there, kind of like, going, no, no, it's okay. You know what I mean? Like, all of this machinery and these things that, you know, you can get judged about or that, you don't know when you're walking in, there's a different, you know, slightly different situation, but it's the same thing where somebody just gave me the freedom to say, like, it's okay to, like, just figure it out. And. And, yeah, but that does get to the essence, I think, of what it is to have to take these chances when you do anything creatively, for sure.
- [13:12]
David Duchovny
I remember the first job I got was a commercial for Lowen Brow, and I was terrified. I mean, I. Somehow I got the commercial and I.
- [13:20]
Ellie Kemper
Lowenbrow was a beer for people who don't know, right? It was a beer.
- [13:24]
David Duchovny
Yeah, it was a beer. Thank you. Thank you. I remember it was a beer. Let it be lo. And Brow was the tagline.
- [13:30]
Ellie Kemper
Exactly.
- [13:30]
David Duchovny
Let it be Lone Brown, let it be lone Brown. And so I get there and they tell me, okay, there's no dialogue. It's just like an image of me and an older guy at a bar. And they tell me, like, he's an old professor of mine that I run into. Like, that's the vibe they want to get from us. And at one point I like, it's very much like your meat thing. I like tossed a pretzel up into the air and like, you know, caught it in my mouth. You know, like just mister, mister at ease, you know, at the bar. And the director was like, yeah, that's good. And then I just glommed onto it like I couldn't stop, like tossing pretzels up in the air and casting it in my mouth. And finally I just remember the director. And we got the pretzel. We got the pretzel. And then the shame just started. Like, you know, when somebody sees what you're trying to do, it's the worst.
- [14:22]
Ellie Kemper
There's one audition where I had to do a whole monologue. This was like when I was like 17 for a play in New York. And the monologue was about a briss, like somebody having a bris. And I'm, you know, should know that. And the whole. I didn't know that. And I pronounced it bri. B, R, I S as brie, like brie cheese. The whole monologue. And at the end of the edition, they said, thank you very much and it's pronounced bris. Next. Oh, yeah. I mean, and so, and, and especially at that point when you're just starting out and oh yeah, you're lucky enough to get work. It's so exciting to get the work and it's so charged. It's, you know, I, at least I've always felt so nervous, you know.
- [15:08]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [15:09]
Ellie Kemper
I mean, you know, like all these, all these things are like, I think as time goes by, I don't know, we just change as people. I think, you know, we change as people over the years. And I have a different perspective on, you know, like when I look at myself 20 years ago, I'll watch like B roll footage, which is like, you know, behind the scenes footage of like on a film or a movie, you know, of like me making jokes about something like. And I'm thinking I'm really funny. And like I look, this guy like thinks like he's just knows what. And I look like such an asshole. Just like, oh, this guy really thinks like he's got it all figured out. But there's something about when you're young too, there's that aspect of like, okay, you have this.
- [15:48]
David Duchovny
Absolutely.
- [15:48]
Ellie Kemper
Right.
- [15:49]
David Duchovny
Just this drive that you need, that you need that we also need, that confidence that you have that you haven't figured it out.
- [15:54]
Ellie Kemper
Exactly.
- [15:54]
David Duchovny
It's not supreme. It's not supreme confidence. It's like, it's. It's like a green confidence. And I had it too. Like, when I first started acting, I was like, I'm fantastic. I'm, you know, I'm, you know, fuck, you know, I'm just gonna, like. I'm just gonna like, get like. I look at old X Files and I'm like, oh, man, that is just bad. But there's an eagerness that is kind of winning, you know?
- [16:16]
Ellie Kemper
Right.
- [16:16]
David Duchovny
And then at some point I feel like I lost that eagerness. And then like, what do you replace that with? It just. You become a different kind of a maker.
- [16:23]
Ellie Kemper
Yes. Yeah.
- [16:25]
David Duchovny
Because you can't be 21 forever in any way, you know, even in a creative way.
- [16:30]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah.
- [16:30]
David Duchovny
And for sure. And there's a different kind of creation that comes as we get older, different relationship to it. And, you know, I look at your work, I mean, your work is incredibly varied. And what I notice is, you know, in the beginning, I see a person who's engaged in having a conversation with the television and the movies, you know, with the medium.
- [16:56]
Ellie Kemper
I feel like I had a lack of self awareness or understanding of why I wanted to have that conversation with movies and tv, other than I loved them and I wanted to be a part of it. And I grew up around it, obviously with my parents. But I. I have to say, like, failure, you know, has contributed to that in a big way. Because I think the times where I've like experienced that, they were pretty, you know, there were a couple, I'd say, like, they're two, like, professional ones that really, like, I feel like really affected me.
- [17:30]
David Duchovny
What do you think of specifically when.
- [17:32]
Ellie Kemper
You say that, specifically in terms of.
- [17:34]
David Duchovny
Failure or those failures?
- [17:36]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah, well, the first one was the Cable Guy, because with Jim Carrey and that movie, we had so much fun making that movie. And when the movie came out, it was not well received and did not make a lot of money at the box office. And it was the first movie that Jim Carrey did that didn't do well. And I remember picking up the New York Times review of that. I remember where I was at the St. Regis Hotel and opening up the New York Times review which said, the first disaster movie of the summer has arrived. And it's called the Cable gun. Cause at that time, disaster movies were a big thing too. And that was kind of shocking. Cause it was just like, oh, whoa. I thought we were so into this and we were having so much fun doing it. And Jim was so into it. And we spent so much time and energy making this thing. That thing of like, you go, wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought this was. But this is the thing we worked really hard on and we all really think is good. But I did feel the lull in terms of, after that of like kind of people not calling, you know, I mean, you don't get a lot of call. First of all, you don't get. It's that thing when like the movie comes out, it doesn't do well. You always get like, you get a lot of like, you know, calls and like, congratulations. When things are going well, when something isn't good, like it's just a silence, there's nobody call, or there's.
- [19:01]
David Duchovny
There's the worst call, which is like, I don't care about the New York Times. When you've stayed away from the New York Times and not read the review and things.
- [19:09]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah, that's the best. When you get like the text.
- [19:10]
David Duchovny
Fuck the New York Times.
- [19:11]
Ellie Kemper
Fuck the New York Times text. I'm like, okay, I guess.
- [19:13]
David Duchovny
Thank you. I wasn't aware, I wasn't aware until now. Now I guess I have to read the New York Times and see how bad it is.
- [19:20]
Ellie Kemper
I don't think I've ever gotten a good review in the New York Times. But you know, it was like, then the real repercussions, like the show business repercussions were like, oh, well, you know, not a lot going on in terms of like directorial offers, you know, because it was kind of like a high profile failure. You know, it's just so like, it really sticks with you. Obviously those, those moments, those, you know, the feeling, like you say shame. You know, this feeling of shame.
- [19:47]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [19:48]
Ellie Kemper
And I, you know what you were just talking about at the beginning to me like that that's beautiful. I love that story that you kind of woke up just feeling free. Because that's the reality of it, is that nothing has changed. Okay. Maybe somebody reads the review who is a producer who might have hired you, who now will go like, oh, I don't want to hire him. Or somebody who doesn't like you will laugh at you or talk to their friend about. But in your reality, in the reality of the lives that we're living on this planet, nothing has changed.
- [20:22]
David Duchovny
Your dog didn't read the review and look at you like, yeah, that fucker.
- [20:25]
Ellie Kemper
Right?
- [20:26]
David Duchovny
I wish I had a different owner.
- [20:28]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah. I mean, the people who are love you and your life still love you, and the people who respect you still respect you. And, you know, if you really look at it, like, look at the history of people, you know, doing things and taking chances and making art, it's just like you can, you know, it happens literally all the time. I found for me, it's always. It always comes back to just my own. My own feelings of insecurity. You know, that's, that's for me, like when I would look at how somebody would react to something I did negatively, it. It. It's usually because it's somehow. I'm. I'm somehow thinking, oh, yeah, you know, that, that's something that I agree with. That I don't. You know, like in myself and you, you.
- [21:13]
David Duchovny
You give it weight.
- [21:15]
Ellie Kemper
Exactly, exactly.
- [21:16]
David Duchovny
If it's negative. If it's negative, you tend to give it more. Right.
- [21:19]
Ellie Kemper
But then you have to like, what are you going to do? Quit the business? You're gonna. Are you gonna stop doing it? Like, you have that moment where you go, okay, they're right. I suck. I'm awful. And anytime that's happened with me, it's always allowed space for other things to happen in my life, you know? And, you know, eventually things change. Anytime you're like, forced to have to just be with yourself, usually good things come out of that because, you know, there's so many distractions in success.
- [21:48]
David Duchovny
Yeah. What is it? Success has many fathers and failure is a bastard. And, you know, and you're sitting there, you're alone.
- [21:54]
Ellie Kemper
That's the most real time because that's when you're like, really, really, like, you know, you're just there with, with who you are. And the other kind of big one for me was Zoolander too. And that was. And that was, you know, that was like a really shocking one to me because that was like later in life. And I was also like, okay, well, I thought everybody wanted to see this movie. And I was like, wow, I must have really fucked this up. That, like, everybody didn't go to it and it's gotten like these horrible reviews. It was really. It really freaked me out because I was like, yeah, I didn't know it was that bad. Like, that's what scared me the most on that one was like, wait a minute.
- [22:29]
David Duchovny
Question.
- [22:30]
Ellie Kemper
I'm losing, like, what I think. What's funny. Yeah. Questioning yourself. But on, on, on Zoolander 2, it was, you know, it was definitely blindsiding to me, and it definitely, like, affected me for a long time, but it also. It was the same thing, only, you know, I wasn't as young, so it was like. It's almost even, like, harder, too, because you're like, well, wait a minute, you know, like, what? Yeah, you know. But for me, though, it was the same thing, by the way, as Cable Guy, too, where, like, then there was, like, kind of a quiet time. And the wonderful thing that came out of that for me was again, was just like, having space where, like, if that had been a hit and they said, like, make Zoolander 3 right now or, you know, offer some other movie, I would have just probably jumped in and done that. But I had this space to just kind of sit with myself and have to deal with it and other projects that I had been working on, not, not. Not comedies. Some of them I had the time to actually just work on and develop, and it ended up giving me the space. And really. Because I didn't really have a choice at that moment other than, like, I wasn't like, even if somebody said, well, why don't you go do another comedy or do this? Like, I probably could have figured out something to do, but I just didn't want to. And I'd.
- [23:52]
David Duchovny
Why didn't you want to? What's that feeling there? Were you. Is that anger? I don't want.
- [23:57]
Ellie Kemper
No, it was just hurt, I think. Hurt and, like, you know, take my ball and go home and, like, you don't want me.
- [24:01]
David Duchovny
Yeah, right, right.
- [24:02]
Ellie Kemper
All right. You don't want to. You're not going to get to it. And so I just sort of, you know, like, didn't feel like putting myself out there, but I, you know, over all these years, like, part of, you know, talking about, like, what, you know, finding yourself in terms of, like, what creatively you want to be and do. I always love directing. I always love making movies. I always, in my mind, loved the idea of just directing movies since I was a kid and not necessarily comedies. And so over the course of, like, the next, like, nine or ten months, I was able to develop out this limited series, Escape a dannemora of these. These convicts who escaped that I don't think would have happened if I had gotten distracted with something else. And for me, that was really transformative because it was the first time I was ever directing something that I wasn't in, which was. Had not been in my intention over all these years, and I was so happy doing it. That kind of set me off on a different path that I don't think would have happened. You know, as a director that I wouldn't have pursued or made the space to pursue if I'd had the success with Zoolander.
- [25:23]
David Duchovny
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- [26:39]
Ben Stiller
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- [27:47]
Reshma Sajani
Hi, I'm Emily Deschanel and I'm Carla Gallo and we're excited to tell you about Boneheads, our new Bones Rewatch podcast. I played Dr. Temperance Brennan. And I played Daisy Wick. And we are gonna watch from the very beginning. We're gonna watch the episodes, we're gonna reminisce, we're gonna laugh, we're gonna cry, we're gonna tell behind the scenes stories, we're gonna go on tangents, a lot of tangents. So whether you're a seasoned Bones fanatic or a newcomer looking to dip your toes in to the wild world of forensic anthropology, this show is for you. Boneheads from Lemonada Media is out now, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:47]
David Duchovny
Well, I mean, there's lots that I'd love to talk to you about, like growing up in New York. I mean, we're both. We're both half Jews, half, you know, your mom was Irish.
- [28:53]
Ellie Kemper
There's no such thing as half Jewish, David.
- [28:56]
David Duchovny
There isn't.
- [28:59]
Ellie Kemper
But yes, my mom was Irish Catholic. My dad was Jewish.
- [29:02]
David Duchovny
Yeah, yeah. My mother was a Scottish Lutheran, and my dad was from Brooklyn. Was your dad born in the States?
- [29:07]
Ellie Kemper
My dad was born in. Probably in Brooklyn. Yeah. In Brooklyn. Lived all over the Lower east side. Super poor.
- [29:14]
David Duchovny
We. We might be, you know, you and I should never have a baby. Let's just put it that way. So to get back to, like, the initial impulse, right, you're the son of two performers, and do you think you wanted to make people laugh? Is that the first thing? Because your parents are professional, funny people, right? Is that like little Ben Stiller? Is he going, I'm going to make him laugh. I'm going to make him laugh?
- [29:40]
Ellie Kemper
Well, maybe it's little Ben Stiller wanted to get, you know, Jerry and Ann to laugh at him and to pay attention.
- [29:46]
David Duchovny
Really? Is that, Is that so?
- [29:47]
Ellie Kemper
Well, I think it's that, you know, you folks, your parents are actors, you know, you want their, you know, it's a whole world that you're in where you see people paying attention to them, and you as a kid want your parents to pay attention to you. And my parents were amazing, but it's also like, it's, you know, they were just like, you know, living the life of a comedy team who had to, like, they had, you know, had to write their act. They were writing and making commercials. They were doing television episodes. They were just like, kind of doing their thing, right? And they brought us along with them. But like, I think as a kid, you know, you see that and it's. There's something very, you know, Exciting about it, too. Yeah. I didn't really have the desire to be funny. Funny. I think I remember very young, like, being excited to be on a set and to see the cameras and to see, like, how they set stuff up and just, like, the aura of excitement when you're about to shoot something. I went on the set of taking a Pelham 123 and my dad was, oh, yeah. And, like, being around that and going, oh, this is the coolest thing ever. The making of movies to me was. That's what I remember as a little kid thinking, like, I want to be a part of making movies.
- [31:01]
David Duchovny
So there wasn't a moment where you got that first laugh and you were like.
- [31:06]
Ellie Kemper
Well, my parents would bring us up on stage sometimes after they would do their act or they would do summer stock productions and do, like, a play. And then they'd bring Amy, my sister and I up and, you know, we'd do, you know, like, some lines from the play or something, and people would laugh.
- [31:20]
David Duchovny
Yeah. And how did you feel about, you know, the fact that the family life, the relationship was part of. Part of the act? Right. And therefore, at some point you must have felt like, you know, am I going to. Did they talk about their kids? Am I going to be part of the act? Was there ever that kind of.
- [31:40]
Ellie Kemper
Well, there was no. Yeah. I'm actually. I'm working on a documentary about my parents right now, so I've been kind of looking at a lot of their stuff. And, you know, really, my dad made a lot of audio recordings of their rehearsals and their, you know, their process of which is. And he just recorded stuff around the house, too. And there was always that sort of. That my parents act. My sister and I knew it sort of inside out. And there were all these jokes that they would make that we didn't quite understand about, you know, marriage.
- [32:07]
David Duchovny
Did you and your sister actually. Would you. Would you play your dad and your sister would play your mom and you do the. Do the act?
- [32:12]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah, we do the act. Yeah. That's weird.
- [32:14]
David Duchovny
That's pretty insane.
- [32:17]
Ellie Kemper
I mean, we do. We were just like. There was a lot of performing going on in the house. Like, my parents would go away to LA to, like, work, like, do a Love Boat episode or do, like, courtship with Eddie's father. You know, they do a guest show because they never moved to la. And then my sister and I would be alone for, like, you know, a week or two weeks with our housekeeper Hazel, who took care of us, and we would just, like, go crazy. And then, you know, come back and we'd, like, act out, like, the first act of Jesus Christ Superstar for my parents or Pippin or something like that. So I guess we were trying to get their attention, but we definitely knew their act. And they would, you know, like, my mom would have these jokes, like, you know, I'm Irish Catholic. That means I'm paralyzed from the waist down. Like, you know, it's like sort of like this joke that would never fly today, you know, that was like, what. What does that even mean?
- [33:03]
David Duchovny
Oh, she doesn't. What does that mean?
- [33:05]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah. You know. Yeah. And it's Politically incorrect. But, like, you know, jokes like that that were. My. My dad would say, this is the. My wife and the mother of my two kids. And my mom would say, and this is the father of one. And, like, that would get a big laugh. And we would do.
- [33:22]
David Duchovny
I'm laughing. I'm sorry.
- [33:23]
Ellie Kemper
I know it's funny. They were brilliant. But as kids were like, what does that mean? But we didn't even think. Like, it didn't even. We didn't question it. It was just sort of like, that's the act. That's. You know, there's jokes.
- [33:35]
David Duchovny
Right, Right.
- [33:36]
Ellie Kemper
So it was just part of. It was just part of that. There was like a. You know, it was a melding of the act in life. And all of it was intertwined. By the way, those 70 shows, because I have been looking at a lot of them for my parents thing, what people talked about on talk shows in the 70s was so real that people just talk. Well, they just talk about real stuff. There's not funny anecdotes that you see now on the Tonight show or whatever. They ask you what you're gonna talk about, and you tell something funny. People just talking about. I have my parents talking about Barbara Walters asking my parents, so, like, when Jerry goes on the road, do you worry that he's gonna cheat on you, Ann? Like, things like that, like, for real. Yeah. And everybody's, like, smoking cigarettes and. Or. It's just amazing that it was just. Everything was just so much more, like, less polished, you know?
- [34:27]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [34:28]
Ellie Kemper
You know, honestly, later on, like, looking and exploring that stuff and seeing the reality of, like, what it was like to be, you know, a kid in the 70s when your parents weren't around a lot. And we were kind of left to our own devices a lot to take care of ourselves, you know, with. Parents are doing the best they could, but that was. That was the reality. And watching your parents on TV was kind of a, you know, kind of like, wow, you know, that reality seemed more, in a way, more interesting to me than the reality of our lives.
- [34:58]
David Duchovny
You know, I. I think. I think when you say watching your parents on tv, I. I got. I got emotional, you know, because it's like, I know they were great parents and I know, I know you're not saying anything but that, but like, to have that substitute and then to watch you then go say, I'm going to, you know, live inside that box, too. You know, if they're in there, I'm going to get. I'm going to get in there.
- [35:21]
Ellie Kemper
But they weren't there when I got there.
- [35:22]
David Duchovny
I want to. I want to be with them. You know what I mean? And. But I wonder also, you know, because they were successful, but they were not like, uber successful. And they were constantly, you know, they were gigging actors, right? They were. They never could stop hustling. They never could stop hustling, right?
- [35:41]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah. No, they were working for a living. They were having to do what they.
- [35:43]
David Duchovny
Needed to do when you must have been aware of their sense of maybe not failure, but of anxiety and the constant threat of it all going away and stuff like that. And I wonder if that was part of any of your kind of the creation of your consciousness towards the business.
- [36:04]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah, I mean, definitely not consciously. For me, you know, I wasn't thinking.
- [36:08]
David Duchovny
Sure.
- [36:08]
Ellie Kemper
Because when you're. For me, looking at them, all I saw was.
- [36:13]
David Duchovny
I.
- [36:13]
Ellie Kemper
All I saw was their. They, Their success was that they were working. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't. I wasn't comparing it. I didn't.
- [36:19]
David Duchovny
That looked like a huge success just being on the box.
- [36:22]
Ellie Kemper
The fact that they were doing, like the $10,000 pyramid, you know, or, you.
- [36:26]
David Duchovny
Know, I'm not going to argue. I'm not going to argue.
- [36:28]
Ellie Kemper
To me, was the cool. It was the coolest thing in the world. Like, I was so excited to go and hang out there, you know, And I think, you know, for them, whatever their own personal feelings of, like, what they aspired to, you know, which is the stuff, like, as an adult now I can. And I talked to my parents about it, you know, when they were older, too. That wasn't what I was experiencing as a kid. I wasn't aware of that. All I experienced would be maybe the residual feelings or tension between them sometimes when they were having my. My dad was trying to have. Figure out how to get, you know, my mom to write with him or when she was less interested in being. Doing that because my dad was more interested in doing the act and my mom wasn't. Things like that. But it wasn't ever conscious. It was just sort of like, okay, they're doing their thing. And then. And you know, as a kid, you don't think that way. I think you don't. Like you're not even thinking about like your parents issues. At least for me I wasn't. You know what I mean? No, I'm just thinking about myself and.
- [37:23]
David Duchovny
You as a kid.
- [37:24]
Ellie Kemper
I'm just thinking, right, like.
- [37:26]
David Duchovny
No, I know, I know. Yeah. It's wonderful. I mean, that's, I love that about kids.
- [37:30]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah.
- [37:31]
David Duchovny
But. And I also don't think a kid thinks of his dad as a failure or a success. You know, which is the weird thing when we, when we become fathers and we're thinking, oh, you know, my. I bet my son wishes that movie did. Did more.
- [37:46]
Ellie Kemper
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And I'm sure your kids. Because, you know, your kids are older.
- [37:51]
David Duchovny
And my kids do care. My kids. Oh, my God. My dad. You know who I didn't think of as a failure or a success? He once said to me, I'm giving you one of the greatest things a father can ever give a child. I'm not very successful. That's what he said to me. And I had no idea what he. I didn't really know what he's talking about, you know?
- [38:12]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah.
- [38:12]
David Duchovny
Yes, you're right. There's no such thing as half Jewish.
- [38:14]
Ellie Kemper
Exactly.
- [38:15]
David Duchovny
I just proved it. So. Yeah, for sure now, now. Because in a way, you know, that kind of humility, you know, the humility of that is really what joins us together. You know, I was, you know, when I, you know, raising kids, I was always like. I was always kind of like embracing their failures, you know, And I, and I, and I never knew if that was the right thing to be doing, you know, if I should be like, you know, just get back in there until you win, you know, fucking. You know, and sometimes I was always like, maybe you're too comfortable with not giving up, but just like going, hey, you know, like you don't always win them, you know, you're not always a winner. And it's funny how we kind of. We re parent ourselves when we parent our kids, you know, and we make different mistakes than our parents made. Yeah, we make the mistake.
- [39:16]
Ellie Kemper
Well, definitely different. And some of the same too. I mean, you made me think of it when I, when you were saying about me, like watching my parents in the TV set and then like wanting to get in the TV set, you know, and my, Both my Kids are interested in acting.
- [39:32]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [39:33]
Ellie Kemper
You know, that made me think about when I went off and started doing movies and had kids and my parents being away, that I went through the same thing with my kids where I would be away working. And it's at one point just feeling that. And I think my parents had to keep working, doing their thing, and were doing the best they could. But, like, at a certain point, I had that conversation with my family, which was like, oh, you know, like, I'm away a lot. And, yeah, I remember my son just like that thing. My son, like. Like I was going off to do like a night at the museum, two or three or something like that. And I was like, hey, but you like that at the museum. He's like, yeah, but I don't like when you're away. And. And I. And I feel like that, like, you know, we talk about failures, like, definitely, as a parent, you always think about the things you could have done better, like, to be around more, you know? Yeah. But I also think, like. But it's kind of like, oh, that was a little bit of a cat's in the cradle moment, too, for me, you know?
- [40:31]
David Duchovny
Oh, that song kills me, man.
- [40:32]
Ellie Kemper
Like, it's. It's truth.
- [40:33]
David Duchovny
It's just truth. I was doing this thing when. When we took my daughter to. I was just on this jag where every time there was a silence in our conversation, I'd start singing Cats in the Cradle. Cause they'd all laugh, but I would start to cry. I would literally start. I cry when I sing that song.
- [40:51]
Ellie Kemper
It's amazing. It's because it just captured reality.
- [40:55]
David Duchovny
I know. And the thing about. I don't want to let you off the hook for being away or whatever you feel is right about that time or whatever. But the kind of. What I told myself when I was away, if I was away from my kids working, well, I knew they had a loving mom at home. I knew that. So I wasn't leaving them alone, nor were you. But what I told myself was like, oh, I'm modeling an engaged person. You know, I'm modeling a person who's not just defining themselves as a father of this child, you know, I'm modeling an adult out in the world doing his or her thing, you know, and is that bad? You know, like, what's the balance? You know? Is the balance, like, I'm just going to be your father, you know, And I'm on you. I'm on you 24 7, you know, it's just me and you, buddy. Or is it you know, I'm on you when. I'm on you 247 when I'm here. But I'm also, I'm into my life and I'm into my work and I'm into the world, you know, like, I don't know. I don't know the answer.
- [42:06]
Ellie Kemper
No, I think there's elements of that that are very valid. And of course, as our kids are now like young adults, right, you're able to have those conversations with them, right, where they can talk to. Talk to you about it?
- [42:20]
David Duchovny
Hell, no.
- [42:20]
Ellie Kemper
No. My kids will talk to me about it and give me a lot of shit about it. But also, but also, you know, like, we connect on other levels about, about the work and all because they do get it and they both are interested in that world. So it, it really is, you know, it's just, that's just, you know, like, what would that have been if I was home all the time being the. The dad? I don't even know what that would have been. That would have been worse.
- [42:47]
David Duchovny
It would have been like Tannenbaums would have been like the dad and the D dressing them all in the same sweatsuit.
- [42:54]
Ellie Kemper
Exactly.
- [43:04]
Reshma Sajani
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Ellie Kemper
We're going to take everything we've learned.
- [43:17]
Reshma Sajani
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- [43:38]
Ellie Kemper
Get.
- [43:38]
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- [44:16]
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- [45:10]
David Duchovny
One other thing I wanted to ask you about because I. It's weird when you get, like, research about a friend that you're gonna have a conversation with. I felt a little dirty.
- [45:18]
Ellie Kemper
I know.
- [45:19]
David Duchovny
You know, like, I don't wanna.
- [45:21]
Ellie Kemper
What is it?
- [45:22]
David Duchovny
I don't wanna. But that you did est.
- [45:25]
Ellie Kemper
Oh, yeah.
- [45:25]
David Duchovny
As a kid. And I find that I wanted to talk about two things before we finish. I wanna talk about est, but most of all, I wanna talk about Silva.
- [45:36]
Ellie Kemper
You have good researchers.
- [45:39]
David Duchovny
I want to talk about silver mind control so badly. But.
- [45:45]
Ellie Kemper
Did you do silver mind control?
- [45:47]
David Duchovny
No, I never even heard of it until the research came in from Ben Stiller.
- [45:54]
Ellie Kemper
Seriously, a plus to your researchers. Nobody has ever asked me about silver mind control. I did it when I was literally.
- [46:02]
David Duchovny
Tell me what it is first. And who is Silva?
- [46:05]
Ellie Kemper
I. I did it when I was 15. Okay, 15 or 16, so it's been a while.
- [46:10]
David Duchovny
Okay.
- [46:11]
Ellie Kemper
It was a guy, I want to say his name was Jose Silva. I'm not sure.
- [46:16]
David Duchovny
Right. Okay.
- [46:17]
Ellie Kemper
And he came up with a mind control method to like, basically to, like, visualize things that you wanted to manifest. So my friend Adam Max, who. His dad is Peter Max, the artist, grew up in the building.
- [46:31]
David Duchovny
Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think I know Adam Max.
- [46:34]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah, Adam told me about. He somehow, maybe his dad knew about it or whatever. It was like the 70s, you know, late late 70s. And we went down to this, like, like the 12th floor of a building on like 33rd street between like 7th and 8th Avenue, and did a seminar for like a weekend where they taught you how to meditate and can visualize. The thing I remember from it was a thing called the three finger technique. And they said you could use this if you're trying to find a parking.
- [47:00]
David Duchovny
Spot that if you just. A parking spot.
- [47:04]
Ellie Kemper
You visualize the parking spot and you put your thumb and your forefinger and your middle finger together and visualize the parking spot. And it would supposedly manifest it with very New York.
- [47:17]
David Duchovny
You didn't have a fucking driver's license, so you weren't looking for a parking. So whatever silver mind control was telling you, it was not useful.
- [47:25]
Ellie Kemper
It was something to do as teenagers that wasn't drugs.
- [47:29]
David Duchovny
Yeah. And my researchers say, yes, it is. Jose Salt. Okay, I got that.
- [47:35]
Ellie Kemper
My Parents did EST because there was a whole EST craze in the 70s, which was Erhard seminars, training, and this self actualization thing. And they had a children's training. So my parents did the regular adult training two weekends. They go to, like, a ballroom in a hotel, and they break you down and, you know. I mean.
- [47:54]
David Duchovny
Yeah, well, that's the interesting thing is the breakdown stuff, right?
- [47:57]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah, yeah, it was. The idea of getting. The whole idea was to get it. Are you getting it? And they wouldn't tell you what it was, other than, like, it was the idea that you have to kind of, like, accept that you are responsible for everything. So that was what kind of the idea of what getting it was. In other words, not blaming, you know, just kind of taking. Taking responsibility.
- [48:22]
David Duchovny
And as at 15. You're 15.
- [48:24]
Ellie Kemper
No, I did it when I was, like, 12. That one I did when I was 12. And it was children in a room for two weekends. And they had. I just remember that they had pictures of emotions like anger, sadness, happiness. They had, like, different pictures of, like, these cartoon characters representing emotions. And they talked to us about, like, which emotions we connected with the most. And it was a little less intense than the, you know, the adult training, but it's definitely weird.
- [48:51]
David Duchovny
Well, I knew somebody who, like, ran the Forum.
- [48:55]
Ellie Kemper
Yeah, that was a later version of it, right?
- [48:57]
David Duchovny
Yeah, a later version of us. And they really yell at you and they, like, try to break you down of all your bullshit and, you know, all your manipulations and all that stuff. There's always a moment in the funny Ben Stiller film where you fucking tell the truth. You know, you take shit, you take shit. You take shit, you take shit, and then you go essed on everybody. You know, it could be the Mariachi guys or, you know, De Niro and the Fockers or whatever, you know, but there's always that moment where you've had enough and your anger is funny. And I don't know, that's the genius part to me is like, the people that can be. That can make the anger universally funny to all of us. And I'm gonna try to relate it back to failure, because I think there's something in there that you're just tired of being shit on and being seen as an ineffectual failure in these movies. And I'm just wondering, like, when you said est, when I. When I read asked, I was like, isn't. That's kind of like. He's like an EST counselor. There's always a moment where Ben is gonna go est on you in a movie. And I'm just. I don't know. I. I'm sure you never made the connection, but I didn't.
- [50:18]
Ellie Kemper
But I just, I could. I. Look, when you said, do you relate?
- [50:21]
David Duchovny
You relate to that moment? Yeah, that moment.
- [50:24]
Ellie Kemper
And honestly, when you said that, it made me think of my dad, because my dad, who I think was, like, truly just like one of the funniest people ever was, and where he had his most success, Seinfeld and King of Queens and people. The way that he blow up and get angry, I always felt was that was him releasing so much real, real rage and anger that he had. But he was the sweetest human being in the world who would suppress it, and he found this way to channel it in a way that was so incredibly funny. But it was coming from such a real place.
- [51:00]
David Duchovny
Right, right. That's the point, is that this is real. But I see now that you mentioned your dad, wow, when you say it like that, that's from a.
- [51:11]
Ellie Kemper
Well, that's from him. Like a. Well of just years of like, real, real pain and real anger and rage and frustration and all those things that, that he really only found a way to, I think, express through his work, you know?
- [51:25]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [51:27]
Ellie Kemper
And he loved it. He loved being able to, like, and, and I think he was aware of that too. And, like, he kind of. It was for him, that's why he had so much joy in being in, in doing the work.
- [51:35]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. I mean, it's beautiful to me to think about you guys connecting through expression or style or, you know, of something that's handed down in a way, you know, from, from father to son, which is, it's, it's. There's something lovely about it.
- [51:56]
Ellie Kemper
Well, I, I, I also just want to say, like, I am, like, I just think you're like, your creative impulses. I always tell you what I see, but, like, you do so much, and it seems to me that whatever battles we all have with those fears and those insecurities, like, you just, you continue to create and push yourself and take chances in different forms, whether it's music. I mean, I had so much fun playing with you that time.
- [52:23]
David Duchovny
Yeah, we should tell them. I got Ben to drum for a couple of. I like to say my band is so big that I have Ben Stiller on drums. And what I saw, you know, talk about process or whatever and talk about leaving it on the field, you know, and I was like, yeah, you know, you say you're a drummer. I'M like, just come and drum. That's cause I'm an idiot. And you're like, no, I want to rehearse. I want to. I want to, you know, I want to. I want to be good, you know. And I was like, ah, that, you know. But then you came and you. You put your heart and soul into it. You came and, you know, practiced with us and.
- [52:56]
Ellie Kemper
And, yeah, I just didn't want to fail.
- [52:57]
David Duchovny
They loved you for. I know. What a pleasure, man. I didn't, you know, I don't know what I'm doing again. I think it's good.
- [53:06]
Ellie Kemper
I like talking about this stuff. I think it's good to talk about this stuff too, you know, I think, yeah, it's good for me personally, like, to talk it through.
- [53:13]
David Duchovny
Thank you so much. Yeah, this is great for your time.
- [53:15]
Ellie Kemper
Glad you're doing it. Talk soon.
- [53:17]
David Duchovny
I hope to see you soon. All right. Just wanted to get down some thoughts about doing the first podcast yesterday with Ben Stiller. And, you know, I feel like a failure. It's funny, you know, you have this idea of what things are going to be. Who knows, you know, Maybe I'll figure it out for next time a little more. But, like, specifically, what I didn't like was, yeah, we can get to that point where we talk about failure as, you know, a sign that we should try a different road. But what we don't get is, what's the process? How long does it take? What is the mental process? What is the spiritual process? What is the emotional process? And fuck me, I didn't ask any of those questions. Fucking jackass. And I think Ben, with the generosity of spirit, kind of touched on those things without me asking. So he probably saved my bacon, as they say. I don't know why they say that. Why do they say, save my bacon? He saved my ass because he was super generous with his time and his thoughts and his feelings and just generous to be the first guy to come on with me doing this thing that I don't know how to do. And that the day after, I'm like, you suck at that. It's the first time I did this thing. I've been an interviewee a lot in my life. I've never been an interviewer, and I'd always thought that I'd be a terrific interviewer. So I was dealing with, like, ooh, reality smacking me in the face as I saw it. So you can't just play Major League Baseball right away, can you? Yeah, but that's what we expect sometimes, of ourselves, isn't it? So I think, you know, failure and expectation are twins. Never quite what you imagine, never quite the expected. And that's what life is, isn't it? So blahdy blah blah, baby. There's more Fail Better with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now and Apple Podcast. Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kropinski and Kate D. Lewis. The show is executive producer produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me, David Duchovny. I mean Duchovny, damn it. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. Special thanks to Brad Davidson. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovne. You know what it means when I say at David Duchovne. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.
- [57:01]
Ellie Kemper
Oh, wait, this is crazy. I'm still on.
- [57:04]
David Duchovny
Get out of here.
- [57:04]
Ellie Kemper
Interesting. I thought. No, it's curious. Like I thought I disconnected, but I have. How do I get away now?
- [57:12]
David Duchovny
We didn't tell you.
- [57:14]
Ellie Kemper
That's so crazy. Maybe we'll just keep talking forever. David, It'll never go away. Okay, that's really interesting. Oh, zoom. I get it. Here. Wait, there it is. I got it. I didn't leave this. Okay, there it is. Bye, Dave. Bye, Keegan. I'll see you.
- [57:29]
David Duchovny
Yes.
- [57:30]
Ellie Kemper
Now he laughs. All right.
- [57:32]
David Duchovny
Okay, what do I do?
- [57:34]
Reshma Sajani
Hi, everyone. Gloria Rivera here. And we are back for another season of no One Is Coming to Save Us, a podcast about America's childcare crisis. This season, we're delving deep into five critical issues facing our country through the lens of childcare, poverty, mental health, housing, climate change and the public school system. By exploring these connections, we aim to highlight that child care is not an isolated issue, but one that influences all facets of American life. Season four of no One is Coming to Save Us is out now. Wherever you get your podcasts, I'm Lupita Nyong'o. My new podcast, Mind you'd Own, is a storytelling show that navigates what it means to belong, all from the African perspective. We're going beyond the headlines to dive into nuanced, intimate stories from Africans around the world. I'm so excited to bring this show to you. Listen to Mind your Own on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.