Playing God with Jonathan Roumie

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Playing God with Jonathan Roumie"

Episode Title: Playing God with Jonathan Roumie
Host/Author: Lemonada Media
Guest: David Duchovny
Release Date: May 6, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of "Fail Better," hosted by Lemonada Media, David Duchovny engages in a deep and introspective conversation with actor Jonathan Roumie. The discussion delves into the challenges of pursuing a career in the arts, the intersection of faith and personal struggle, and the profound impact of failure as a catalyst for growth.

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Early Life and Acting Aspirations

David Duchovny opens up about his early interest in the performing arts, despite being naturally shy. He recounts his first foray into acting during junior high through drama club and a pivotal moment in high school where he auditioned for a supporting role in "The Sound of Music." At [05:23], Duchovny describes his anxiety and the memorable experience of performing on stage, which ignited his passion for acting:

“I felt like, okay, this is good for me. That was it.”

However, his initial attempts were fraught with self-doubt and limited opportunities, leading him to explore behind-the-scenes roles in the film industry.

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Struggles and Career Transition

Duchovny discusses his transition from aspiring actor to location scout, sharing how financial instability and the collapse of a record company he worked with pushed him to refocus on his original passion. At [07:28], he reflects:

“The thing about art school that they don't really prepare you for is a practical job... So I got a job with a buddy of mine, this credit card company, through a bank... and I said, I know I did, but trust me on this. That's gonna be the best decision for everybody.”

This period was marked by perseverance, as Duchovny navigated various roles within the film industry, from assistant location manager to location manager, gaining invaluable experience despite the lack of creative fulfillment.

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Turning Points and Influential Encounters

A significant turning point in Duchovny's career came during his tenure as an assistant location manager for Alec Baldwin's directorial debut featuring Anthony Hopkins. At [17:15], Duchovny recounts a conversation that became a catalyst for his decision to pursue acting full-time:

“He kind of turned his head, and then he looked at me and said, I suppose you're right. Good luck to you, boy.”

This interaction reinforced his belief in his artistic talents and encouraged him to take the leap toward acting, despite the uncertainties that lay ahead.

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Faith, Surrender, and Perseverance

A central theme of the episode is the role of faith in overcoming failure. Duchovny shares his personal relationship with faith, likening it to having an "invisible best friend" that provides strength during moments of despair. At [32:07], he articulates:

“Failure teaches you everything.”

He discusses how surrendering control and trusting in a higher power helped him navigate financial ruin and professional setbacks. This surrender was not about giving up but about finding a new path through faith and resilience.

Jonathan Roumie adds his perspective, emphasizing the importance of embracing failure as a learning experience rather than a final defeat. He reflects:

“If you're in love with failure, I like that society better than this society where we're obsessed with winning constantly.”

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Reflections on Failure and Success

The dialogue transitions to a philosophical exploration of failure versus success. Duchovny posits that failure is a greater teacher, offering profound lessons that success often cannot. At [43:29], he remarks:

“If you have the humility to say, I need help, I failed. Where can I get help from?”

Roumie concurs, highlighting how societal obsession with success can lead to shallow achievements, whereas embracing failure fosters genuine growth and community support.

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Playing Jesus: The Art and Its Impact

A significant portion of the conversation centers around Duchovny's portrayal of Jesus Christ in the TV series "The Chosen." He discusses the complexities of embodying such an iconic and deeply revered figure, balancing divinity with humanity. At [50:38], Duchovny shares his approach:

“I think what we are as artists and as actors are carriers of truth... the difference between a flat performance and a standout performance.”

He emphasizes the importance of authenticity and emotional depth, striving to portray Jesus in a manner that resonates on both a spiritual and human level. Roumie echoes this sentiment, expressing admiration for the show's ability to humanize a divine character while respecting scriptural integrity.

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Authenticity and Creative License

Duchovny elaborates on the creative liberties taken in "The Chosen," explaining how the show integrates historical and scriptural elements with imaginative storytelling to create a compelling narrative. At [56:34], he notes:

“The Chosen is not the Bible. The Chosen is a television show that is based on scripture and based on the Gospels.”

This balance allows for the expansion of stories and characters beyond the biblical text, aiming to engage audiences and inspire curiosity about the original scriptures.

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Human Connection and Humility

The episode concludes with reflections on the impact of portraying Jesus and interacting with fans who associate Duchovny personally with the character. He discusses the emotional weight of these interactions and the importance of maintaining humility. At [62:10], Duchovny shares:

“It's completely surreal for me still... in the hug I can feel people just break down and I'm happy to give for them whatever that means to them.”

Through humility and a deep sense of responsibility, Duchovny navigates the complexities of his role, ensuring that his portrayal remains respectful and meaningful.

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Conclusion

"Playing God with Jonathan Roumie" is a profound exploration of failure, faith, and the relentless pursuit of one's passion. David Duchovny's candid narratives about his struggles and triumphs offer listeners valuable insights into the resilience required to navigate the uncertainties of the creative world. Coupled with Jonathan Roumie's thoughtful contributions, the episode underscores the transformative power of embracing failure as an opportunity for growth and deeper self-understanding.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Duchovny at [05:23]:
  “I felt like, okay, this is good for me. That was it.”

• Duchovny at [07:28]:
  “The thing about art school that they don't really prepare you for is a practical job...”

• Duchovny at [17:15]:
  “He kind of turned his head, and then he looked at me and said, I suppose you're right. Good luck to you, boy.”

• Duchovny at [32:07]:
  “Failure teaches you everything.”

• Duchovny at [43:29]:
  “If you have the humility to say, I need help, I failed. Where can I get help from?”

• Duchovny at [50:38]:
  “I think what we are as artists and as actors are carriers of truth... the difference between a flat performance and a standout performance.”

• Duchovny at [56:34]:
  “The Chosen is not the Bible. The Chosen is a television show that is based on scripture and based on the Gospels.”

• Duchovny at [62:10]:
  “It's completely surreal for me still... in the hug I can feel people just break down and I'm happy to give for them whatever that means to them.”

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Final Notes

This episode is a testament to the enduring human spirit and the intricate dance between failure and success. David Duchovny and Jonathan Roumie offer a nuanced perspective that encourages listeners to find strength in their struggles and to view failure not as an endpoint but as a stepping stone toward greater personal and professional fulfillment.

Transcript

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[Sarah]

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[Hasan Minhaj]

Where we bring grace, nuance, and perspective to the news because democracy deserves more than hot takes. Join us as we approach politics and current events with curiosity, empathy, and a commitment to understanding the bigger picture. If you want to stay informed without the anxiety, we're the show for you. New episodes drop on Tuesdays and Fridays. Subscribe to Pantsuit Politics wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Duchovny]

Lemonada.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I'm David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Jonathan Roumie is an actor, producer, and storyteller, and if you know him, it's probably from his portrayal of Jesus Christ in the hit TV series the Chosen. I say if you know him because this series has been massively successful worldwide, though not because of a major streamer and the reach of its marketing. The Chosen was crowdfunded, eventually to the tune of $100 million in donations, and it's reportedly been viewed by almost 3 million people worldwide, yet you may have never heard of it. As a fairly secular person myself, I found out about the show four seasons in through an article in the New York Times. I became really curious about Jonathan, who has been steeped in the ideas of faith, miracles, and a higher power throughout the production and promotion of the show. And it turns out that his own journey to becoming an actor felt a bit like a miracle itself. After many, many failed attempts to make it work, I had lots of questions for Jonathan. I'm a big fan of Jesus movies, Last Temptation, Jesus of Montreal, and in the light of the new season of the Chosen, I sat down with him to talk about the meaning behind his work, his own outlook and perspectives, and the role of faith in the modern world. Here's that conversation. Hey, good morning.

[David Duchovny]

Good morning, David.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Nice to meet you. Sorry I'm late.

[David Duchovny]

Lovely to meet You. No worries at all?

[Jonathan Roumie]

No, it's terrible. I, it's. I'm, I'm in my house.

[David Duchovny]

You know, I tend to just generally jam a whole bunch of stuff in.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And I'm convinced that I get. I've given myself more than enough time to get from A to B. Yeah, but you haven't. But then, but then if I share that schedule with somebody, they're like, what are you thinking? That's.

[Jonathan Roumie]

No, no.

[David Duchovny]

Like, you're not building in any time for like, breathing, you know, I'm like, well, no, you just butt it up right now. I can, I can. No, I can't. Okay. So my sense of time, I think sometimes is occasionally a little adrift.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah. For me, you know, that would always come into play. I like being early, I just do. But it would always come into play. When I was in the. If I, If I've ever been in the middle of a long running job, I would start to take my little pockets of time to myself. And it was completely unrealistic approach to time, like you, because I would, I would leave at the time when I was supposed to be on set and things like that. And it only, it only took me one time to be a director to cure me of ever being late on set again. Because it totally screws up everything.

[David Duchovny]

Screws everything up.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah. But, you know, it's interesting. I think we have a lot in common just superficially, biographically, you know. You grew up in the city in the, in the 70s, is that right?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I was born in Hell's Kitchen, and, and we lived in Woodside, Queens, and I lived there until I was old enough probably to, to start school and then went. We went to the suburbs of Long Island. So. Yeah, was the East Village.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah, I grew up in the East Village. Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Hell's Kitchen was such a, such an interesting phrase.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I refuse to call it Hell's Kitchen.

[David Duchovny]

Clinton Hill, or whatever they're calling it now. I'm just like, no, it's not now.

[Jonathan Roumie]

It's more like Hell's Foyer, because it's a little classier. It's like Hell's Waiting Room, Hell's Drawing Room. So you're a kid, you're kind of. You're born in New York, but you're growing up in Queens and Long Island. I kind of know what that's like at that point. But at some point you decide, I'm going to be a performer of some kind. Is that it? I'm going to be an actor. I'm going to Be.

[David Duchovny]

I think I had a secret desire, you know. Voice actor. Yeah. I never. I had dalliances or delusions of performing, you know, and channeling that through drama club in junior high school, I think in eighth grade and then in high school. But I was so shy and timid that, you know, I never. I wouldn't ever think. I wouldn't have ever thought at the time, and I wouldn't ever approach the idea of auditioning for, like, lead roles. It was, like, little bit parts, you know, cameos, comic relief, you know, those were the kinds of parts that I got, I think, in my. My senior year, I actually auditioned. We did the Sound of Music, and I think I auditioned for one of the supporting leads for. I think it was Rolf was. Was the character. And he sings, I think, Edelweiss. I think it was one of the characters anyway. And. And, you know, I remember going up to, like, you know, sing, and it's.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Like, jonathan, we can't hear you.

[David Duchovny]

A little louder. Okay, thank you very much.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Let's just. Let's let's work.

[David Duchovny]

Move on to the text and. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And. And I ended up getting a very small part where it was literally like the. The. When they had the contest at the end of the show. And then the von Trapp family, they won the contest, but they disappeared, and they've escaped. I was like, the runner up. And I came out. I ran out on stage and lederhosen and cowbells, and it was to the roar of the crowd. And I was. I felt like, okay, that's. This is good for me. That was it. And then I went to film school, and I thought, let me work behind the camera. I want to get into special effects and. Cause I had a visual arts background. I drew. I was pretty good at drawing and painting.

[Jonathan Roumie]

But isn't it amazing how present that memory is to you? I can see it on your face as you talk about it. It's such a formative moment in one's life. I'm sure you could unpack detail after detail after detail that may have been added later, who knows? But it's something that's lived in your mind with the freshness. But what's interesting is, you know, you describe yourself as very shy, and your audition was somewhat shy as well. And yet there was some other part of you that was pushing forward with a kind of a need or a kind of a joy or something, because we talk about failure a lot on the podcast in that moment of, like, oh, I'm really. I'm Screwing this audition, basically. I mean, you would have known, you know, what's the intent?

[David Duchovny]

I knew it going in. I'm like, there's no way this is happening, Right?

[Jonathan Roumie]

So it's such an interesting kind of aesthetic state of mind to. To go into an endeavor and also to persevere through it. And I wonder where, aside from this knowingness that you're in the right place. Also the sense of resilience in the face of not great feedback, you know, nobody's saying, hey, Jonathan, you were made for this. Keep going, my friend. It's not going to work out this time, but it's going to work out, you know. So where did that come from?

[David Duchovny]

You know, I think part of it was knowing that I was. That I had some sort of artistic talent, that I had been given these artistic gifts in my life and that somehow I was meant to use them. I didn't know how exactly or when or where. I didn't think it would be acting. I thought of anything. It would either be music or art because I was very, very present and bold and confident in those abilities. And those abilities kind of gave me social currency as a child and as a teenager. Performing didn't. But I knew there was something in there that was creative and that I would have to find a job that. That allowed me to do that. Because if not, I would be. I would die inside for every day that I spent doing something else. The thing about art school that they don't really prepare you for is a job like a practical job, while you're trying to do the thing that you've trained for the last four years in, whether it's filmmaking, whether it's acting like, what do you do just to make ends meet while you're trying to do the thing that you feel called to. So I got a job with a buddy of mine, this credit card company, through a bank, and he's like, hey, just try it out. And so I interviewed. Great. I killed the interview with the job. And they're like, well, we need a three month commitment. And I said, great, yeah, sure, whatever you need. And it's eight weeks of training. Okay, sign me up. The third day into this eight hour day training week, day three, I called in sick and I went to Lollapalooza because I couldn't stand it. Yeah, I just. And then day four, I called up and I said, I can't. I can't come in. I'm not. This isn't for me. They're like, but you gave us a three month commitment. Do you? I said, I know I did, but trust me, it's better for the both of us if I don't show up tomorrow. So if you can just send me my check, that'll be you. Trust me on this. That's gonna be the best decision for everybody. And they did. And then I went about calling all my friends from film school and saying, do you. Have you worked on a set? Is there anything going? And then I. I got my first PA job, a couple of production assistant job a couple months later or a month later, and that started my, my career behind the scenes.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Well, also, I mean, I think that PA jobs are, are a great kind of training ground for, for any, any job on set. Oh, yeah. Even as an actor. I remember Bill Hader came up to me and told me he was a PA on the X Files. And of course, you know, I didn't remember, but.

[David Duchovny]

You're kidding.

[Jonathan Roumie]

And all I said was, was I okay to you? He was like, yeah, yeah, you're fine. So.

[David Duchovny]

Wow.

[Jonathan Roumie]

But you seem to have this kind of inner, inner directedness, you know, that was carrying you through these moments of, let's say, not support. What I find interesting about your journey too, is that. Okay? Well, first of all, you're a drummer, right? Is that what you. Yeah. Which kind of makes sense because I've always wondered why so many drummers look like Jesus. You know, it's always been.

[David Duchovny]

I don't know if I've ever noticed that, but, you know, maybe you're right.

[Jonathan Roumie]

More like more than the rest of the guys.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, yeah. Not Jesus. Yeah, he was sort of a husky English Jesus, I guess you could say.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah, I just mean long hair and a beard. Usually they're the most unkempt of the quartets. Usually.

[David Duchovny]

Well, when I was playing, I was clean shaven. I had short hair for the most part. Yeah. And then I let my hair really grow for the first time as I went through college, as you do, and be like, oh, this is new. And after that I cut it a bit and was in a band after that. But during college I'd started playing a bit more with other people while I had long hair. But for the most part, most of my life I've had, with the exception of the last 10 years, I've been clean shaven with short hair.

[Jonathan Roumie]

What kind of music did you play?

[David Duchovny]

Well, I played mostly with a singer, songwriter who's in Long island named Joe Tizio. I started, you know, we became friends and I started playing percussion at coffee shops with him. And then that led to doing bigger things. And we ended up cutting a record and thought I was gonna go on tour and like, okay, I guess I'm gonna be a drummer, you know, that's where I'm gonna, you know, really find my artistic fulfillment. And after we. We released the record, it was in like tower records and the whole thing. The company that released it went bankrupt and couldn't fund a tour. And Joe, this was like, Joe was already about 10 years older than me at the time. And this was his second sort of foray from what I remember into the idea of becoming a singer songwriter as a living. But he also had a son and family, you know, family to provide for. And he was like, that's it for me, Johnny. I took my shot, I'm done. I'm like, oh, okay, well, I guess I'll focus back on film industry. And I was, you know, working as a location scout at the time. So I just focused on that and then ascended in. In that ladder. So that was kind of another.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Hey, man. A good location scout is a ace in the hole, my man. That is a director. Nobody knows about that. They're like good locations in the industry are spoken about like. Like these kind of mystical, magical beings.

[David Duchovny]

You know, you're like, where did he find this?

[Jonathan Roumie]

Exactly.

[David Duchovny]

I had a few choice moments in my career which were really, really fun. But ultimately, as I started going up that ladder and becoming an assistant location manager and location manager on some smaller stuff, it got more about negotiations and, you know, doing the deal and letting the scouts do the fun creative stuff and, you know, running around rooftops like I did for the first two Sam raimi spider man films back in the day and I am legend and really giant films that were really, really cool to work on. And so I recognized at one point it's a combination of things between my growing kind of disheartening about the lack of creative input that I had on the day to day with that job to a conversation I had when I was an assistant location manager for Alec Baldwin, his first directorial deb with Anthony hopkins. It became clear to me that I had to do something. I had to go back to the creative well within me to pursue, I think what in my mind and my heart was, you know, part of a God given gift to just be an artist.

[Jonathan Roumie]

And so how old are you at that point? How old are you now?

[David Duchovny]

So this would be. I would have been like, let me see, 20, 27, right?

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And I had. So we were working on this movie that Alec directed and we had a Break. And. And Anthony. I met Anthony Hopkins. We kind of connected at the craft service table, you know, getting some snacks or whatever. And I'd met him, I think, at the beginning of the film, this was midway during shooting, and. And he. He recognized me but didn't remember exactly what I did because we didn't have that kind of interaction. He's like, what's your name? And I said, jonathan. I'm the assistant location manager. He's like, oh, yes, that's right. That's right. And how do you like that? I said, it's okay, you know, it's good. And I just been starting into, you know, I just started working as a voice actor, like, a couple of years prior. My first job was with MTV for a show called Celebrity Deathmatch, doing the Voice.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I think I was on it. I believe I was on it.

[David Duchovny]

You're on it.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I think I was on it.

[David Duchovny]

Okay. That's right. Yes. And so I was really getting, you know, as I started to get work and build confidence as even a voice actor, I thought, I think I can do this.

[Jonathan Roumie]

And such an important moment, you know, for people to hear is when just that I think I can do this. Just that little line in your head when you work with people that you respect, people that are doing it, and you see that they're not magicians. They're human beings. Work they're doing may be great, but it's still within the realm of your possibility.

[David Duchovny]

That's right. And so he asked me how I like, and I said, it's good. It's okay, but I think I need to be doing something more creative. And he's like, really? Like what? And I said, well, I've been doing some voice acting, and I think I'd be a good actor. And he said, oh, well, it's not as easy as it looks, you know. And I said, I totally respect that. I get that. But I said, let me ask you a question. When you were first starting out, wasn't there a moment where you thought to yourself, oh, I can do this. I could be good at this? He said, yes. I said, okay, well, then, what's the difference between where you were then and where I am now? And he kind of turned his head, and then he looked at me and said, I suppose you're right. Good luck to you, boy. And that was kind of like this permission. All of a sudden, I'm like, well, Anthony Hopkins made it very, very clear that there isn't anything so mystifying that somebody can't just go and try to do this. And I thought, okay, well, I guess I gotta pursue this now. And I really started to figure out how I could then move forward and try to make a living as an actor, which wouldn't happen until, you know, literally as a living. Seventeen years later.

[Jonathan Roumie]

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[David Duchovny]

Sure. Well, I, you know, I, so I continued my upward trajectory in locations till about 2008. And I was now anytime I'd work on a film, I had a headshot and I'd say, hey, I'm also an actor if there's any parts going. And occasionally I would. The great casting director Ellen Lewis, I think gave me my first couple of opportunities in some of the films I worked on as a scout. And my first film was prime with Brian Greenberg and Meryl Streep and Uma Thurman and, and I played like a bakery counter guide, Magnolia Bakery down on fourth. And so I thought, okay, like this, this is happening. And so a few years later, I'd done some, a couple of soaps, some recurrings on some soaps. I did a Law and Order. I got my token Law and Order, which I was like, yes, okay, now I'm a real actor in New York, a real New York television actor.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Were you a perp or were you a victim I was a perp.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Richie Citrone. How you doing? Like mafia boyfriend. Coke dealing Mafia boyfriend that gets bastard by Anthony Anderson and company.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And then 2008, the bottom fell out financially in the United States and everything was just halted and reset. And I thought, you know what this is, this might be a good time to really see if I have what it takes and go to where all the work is pretty much generated, which is la, and take my shot. And if I really have what it takes, I gotta go there. And landed in LA in 2010 and I didn't have locations anymore. I didn't have. I was making a good living and now I didn't have that and now I couldn't. I didn't have any background in waiting tables. I'd never worked in a restaurant in my life. I tried to, to apply for those jobs, but the people that were getting those jobs, they had resumes in those jobs with great restaurants. And so, so I, I started doing anything I could. I drove rideshare, you know, I worked, I painted houses, I worked with kids on the spectrum, you know, I taught voiceover, like privately. I coached for auditions and all this other stuff to try to make ends meet. I finally got a job with a catering company and then eventually like three catering companies and then. But, you know, did that for about eight years and it was always, you know, hand to mouth, check to check, you know, not knowing where my next check was going to come from, trying to, you know, rely on unemployment, that whole system. And. And then it got to the point and I had booked a couple of TV shows. My first real guest stars were in Los Angeles. And so I would get a taste and then nothing. And then another year would go by and I might book one, maybe two guest stars in a year if I was lucky, and nothing. And I couldn't, I didn't understand. I thought, well, I have great experiences working with people on sets and that people, you know, really responding to my work. Like, I don't get it, but I'm pretty sure this is still it. So I'm going to keep going to the point where I got to like the spring of 2018 and then there was this window in early end of April, early May, where like I would go to try to make some money driving, car ride share, whatever, and I would get in the car and then 45 minutes or an hour would go by and not a single call would come in, right? Or I was working with a buddy as a grip. And then for like three weeks there was nothing. Or the catering companies. There were no. Like, I would just. No, nothing was happening. Like, it's like everything strangely just dried up all at once until I was completely out of money. I woke up one morning, overdraft to my checking account. I had already used up my. All my credit cards, paying rent and maxed everything out. You know, I was out of food. You know, I was out of government assistance, and I literally had enough food to last the day this one day. And I. And I had this massive kind of moment of panic where I didn't know what, like, what am I going to. How am I going to get out of this? And so being a man of faith, and I grew up with faith, I was baptized as a kid, I went to church. And as I got, especially when I moved to la, like, I really relied on my faith to kind of get me through these pivotal, tumultuous situations.

[Jonathan Roumie]

When you say you relied on your faith, what do you mean? Exactly? I hear that phrase a lot. But what does that mean to you? Exactly.

[David Duchovny]

So I think having faith is essentially this relationship with God where you. You're connected to him. You. You sort of treat him, have him as a. It's like having an invisible best friend in your life where you share the. Your. Your wins and your losses. And ultimately, you know that everything that you have comes from God, good and bad and indifferent. The good stuff is kind of the stuff that you can celebrate and feel blessed by. And like, wow, I got this job. I'm so grateful. But then the opposite side of that, it's like, well, what about the failures? Does that come from God, too? And I think, well, in a way, yes, there's an allowance of a certain level of failure, because through that, you're sort of tested. You know, like sword makers, right? When they're firing up the metal to make swords, they're burning out all the impurities. And the longer that they heat the metal up and the more times that they apply pressure and heat to this sword to basically get rid of all of the impurities within it, the stronger that sword's going to be, the more. The better it's going to cut, the less likely it is to break under pressure. I think the same thing is true with the human spirit.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Well, that's very much what I'm coming at in this podcast, even though I'm more secular than you. I'm coming at you talk about.

[David Duchovny]

The idea is the same, though.

[Jonathan Roumie]

You can relate to it still. Yeah, I can totally relate to it as I relate to much of the Bible as wisdom literature. For me, it doesn't have to be. We don't have to argue over the existence of God or that kind of thing, but we can agree on the fact that this Bible has survived this many years because it has a lot of wisdom in it, and people come back to it for the parables, for the stories, because they are teaching stories. And so what I find in this podcast is, like, you talk about celebrating the victories. On this podcast, I'm trying to celebrate the failures because, in fact, I have found that those, you know, in your words, they make us stronger. Yes. But they also. They teach us the most. Success teaches us very little, except sometimes it teaches us to be egocentric and narcissistic and not very good things. You know, success teaches. Success says to us, you know, you're. You're the one. You're great. And failure just throws you onto other people, you know, like, oh, please, help. Help. I submit, or whatever. Help me. So, yeah, so if you're. So this is your moment and you're going, you know, basically, you're. You're submitting, I think is the word.

[David Duchovny]

You use, which feels like submission. Surrender. Yeah. And it's because of that relationship. It's because of activation of that. That relationship. That faith is what kind of keeps me going in those moments of failure and learning from the failure. And you're right. I mean, failure is the greatest teacher. Success teaches you nothing.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Well, this is.

[David Duchovny]

Failure teaches you everything.

[Jonathan Roumie]

That is so fascinating because I want to talk to you about, you know, Jesus's failure in many, in a sense, you know, like, it was just fascinating to me. I mean, that's.

[David Duchovny]

I want to hear more about that. I want to hear more about that.

[Jonathan Roumie]

What.

[David Duchovny]

What is the failure?

[Jonathan Roumie]

Oh, there's so much. Oh, fuck. Excuse me.

[David Duchovny]

Let's get into it, man. I'm open to all of it.

[Jonathan Roumie]

No, I know you are. I just. I don't want to. I don't want to zoom past stuff that I also find interesting, but we'll get. Okay, Jesus. Failure is this. See, I look at it, I. I grew up. I grew up going to a church school. I. So we. We had Bible study. I'm conversant with both testaments. And like I said, I. I treat it like a. Like a. An ancient source of human wisdom and. And spirituality. I don't. I don't practice in the way that you might practice or that I assume you practice or the way I hear you talking about your practice. I don't have that relationship to God that you have personal One that you speak of, but the story of, of, of God and Jesus, the story in the Bible of the sacrifice of Jesus is something that is so heart rending and heartbreaking and so essential and it's, you know, the dying God is not just a Christian myth or a Christian story. It's, it's as old as, as we are. Go back to the Greek myths, everything, they're dying and coming back to life. The defeat of death, basically. Because death is the ultimate failure. That's what one that we're all gonna, we're all going to fail in the end.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Roumie]

And Jesus offers us victory over our ultimate failure in that sense, at least spiritually, if not materially in body. But when I break down the story, I look at it as a father son story. You know, it's like, oh my God. And this is something Milton talked about in Paradise Lost. He could not, if you read the poem, he does not really, in Paradise Regained, does not really write much about the crucifixion because the notion of a father sacrificing his son was too hurtful to him. He could not, he could not, he could not face it spiritually.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Roumie]

And so that's what I see in, in when I say Jesus's failure. I think of wonderful books like the Last Temptation of Christ or even. And a wonderful movie where you have this hybrid being this, this, and we can all relate to it because we are half animal and half angel. That's what humans, right. So we get it, we get what Jesus struggle and he's supposed to. I guess he feels. When I think about it as a story like I'm going to pitch you, okay, here's this guy, he's born, he's half God, he's half human. His job is to save the human race. But he gets killed. He can't do it. And on the cross, you know, when he says, why have you forsaken me? I'm thinking he must have felt like a failure. He must have felt like he didn't live up to what his dad wanted. And that's what I'm talking about. Like why, regardless of what my belief in God is, that story, it hits my soul, you know, because it's the deepest father, son, human story that we all know. Or mother, daughter, whatever, it doesn't have to be male. So that's what I talk about. I don't talk about the failure of Jesus. I'm not trying to have an argument with you about whether he saved the world or he's the Messiah or anything. Like that. I'm talking about the human guy in that moment, in that moment of like, wait a minute, I was supposed to save these people and they're killing me.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I. What I do wrong? Like you. What do I do? And he was 33. He's like, Ah, what do I do? Yeah, yeah. So that's what I talk about, the failure. That's what I mean.

[David Duchovny]

But then, but then the success that comes out of that three days later is where. Is where he wins.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

That's kind of like the comeback, right?

[Jonathan Roumie]

It is the ultimate.

[David Duchovny]

Call it a comeback.

[Jonathan Roumie]

It's the ultimate comeback. But, you know, for me, as an actor and as a, as a lover of story, which is basically what I made my life doing, is telling stories from whatever, as a writer, as an actor, as a director, whatever, that's what I'm into. There's no better story. There's no better ip, you know, and this gets into what.

[David Duchovny]

It's the reason why they call it the greatest story ever told. I mean, every, every time. And it sounds like you, you've spent a few, few minutes in, in if not more like in various parts of, of these stories. The more you read it and reread it like something. You know, as Christians, we say like the, the. The Bible is alive. The Word is living. Right. It's because there's. The more you read it and the more you reread it, things will come pop out of the script of the text that you didn't see the first time you read it, or it'll just kind of speak to you in ways that you didn't really recognize as, like, a possibility. And it's, it's kind of, it's, it's very mystical. It's why it survived for, for two, 3,000 years. I mean, 2,000 years of the stories of the New Testament and then 3,000 years before that.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

You know, and there's something that is fresh every time you open it up and applicable to your life that can actually aid your life if you allow it to. If you have the humility to say, I need help, I failed. Where can I get help from? And in that moment in my own life, it was submission and surrendering and saying, God, you know what, if you put me here, if you want me to keep doing the thing I think you put me here to do, to somehow have an effect on my culture, my society, my community, you got to take over. Because I've exhausted all my resources. I've given as much control as I thought I was supposed to. In guiding this career. But clearly I've failed. I've either done something wrong or I've not been doing it right. So now it's, I'm at my. My end, and so I give it to you. You take care of everything.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I hear that and I appreciate it. And when I think about moments in my life when I have done something similar, even though I haven't given it over to God, I've given it over to not me. And the instructive thing that I. If we could speak on it for a minute, I don't even know, because what you're saying makes me realize that this is something that's instructive to talk about, but it's so slippery, is what's the difference between that and just I give up passivity, you know, how does that kind of submission lead to action.

[David Duchovny]

When, if. If you give up? My question then becomes, who are you giving up to? Is it just to yourself? Are you just saying, I give up? In which case, where do you go from there? Like, what's. What's to stop you from giving up totally and just, you know, and. And I don't know, not even getting up off the floor, right? So for me, for me, the only thing I can do is, like, understand, well, if I didn't have that relationship, I don't know what I would do. But because I had that relationship, I had something, someone to turn it over to because I did everything by the book, man. You know, Like, I was like, no, you know, hustle, do your auditions, get your side jobs, do everything you need to do. And it wasn't working. Like, everything on paper told me this should work, but it didn't work. And there was no explanation why it didn't work, because I knew I was good at it. I knew I had something there. I knew I was compelled to go to LA to try something that was deep within me as an artistic expression. And everything I did just didn't work. And so I thought, well, there must be something I'm not doing. And the only thing I recognized in that moment of surrender that I wasn't doing is that I wasn't inviting the relationship that I claimed to have had in my faith. I wasn't trusting and counting on that relationship. And if you're a person of faith, truly a person of faith, there is an element of trust there that is implied. And you can lie to yourself and say, no, no, no, I trust, I trust. But if you're not actually trusting, if you're not actually walking the walk and putting your money where your mouth is, then it's just a bunch of gas.

[Jonathan Roumie]

But how are you not tr. Trusting? How were you not trusting?

[David Duchovny]

Because I was trying to have so much control. That was the thing. It's like, so in a relationship with God, it's supposed to permeate every aspect of your life. And what I did, especially in my career, is I kept God and my career separate. So I would have my faith life, I'd have my church relationships. I'd have this. But when it came to the thing that I was sort of imbued with as far as artistic gifts go, I kind of was like, hey, God, I got this to. I'm going to call this guy. I'm going to call his casting director. I'm going to send out this headshot. Don't worry, guys. I'm good. I'm good. I don't. I don't really need the help. I'm. I'm good. Like, I didn't even. I didn't. The two never met. I didn't even say. I didn't even ask for the help that I clearly needed in guidance and the wisdom that you talk about and the discernment to say, okay, like, I need.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Okay, I hear what you're saying. I totally hear what you're saying. And I give you my interpretation, my secular interpretation of that. When I hear that. And I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right at all. I'm just saying, this is how I hear. I'm trying to get jobs. I'm trying to get jobs. I'm trying to make money, But I'm not really thinking, what kind of job do I want? What kind of artist do I want to be? How can I be authentic to myself? I'm just trying to win. But what am I trying to win? I haven't really asked myself what I want to be. I've. I've seen, oh, I want to get success, but I want to get money. But what is my heart like in those roles? Maybe it's not. I'm just trying to make connections. I'm trying to do this. So when you say God, I hear soul, authenticity, spirit. And I don't disagree with you, you know?

[David Duchovny]

No, I love that interpretation. I love that because I think. I think there's truth in that. I think even if I had. Even if I had thought of it in that way that you described, that would have been more helpful to me. I might have had a different. It's like I would have been even closer to the thing that I ultimately felt that I needed to do, but I didn't. To me, they were so far apart that I thought, well, no, how would you know? It didn't even occur to me, which is preposterous, especially as somebody of faith, to not combine the two. And when I did, when I finally said, I need help, like you take it hours later and I'm completely broke, I experienced a financial miracle. For all intents and purposes, it was literally a financial miracle that took me out of the reality of my situation and the reality of my brokenness and my brokenness and. And I recognized, like, there was a switch that was flipped, and it was a complete aha moment that I actually, when it was happening, I get back to my house after I, you know, realized I had just 20 bucks left, and I was, you know, borderline destitute. And I like overdraft, as I said. And so I go and I spend my last 20 bucks on brunch. I come back to my house and I open my mailbox, and there's four mysterious checks in the mail. And so there was a $50 check and then, which I was expecting for some reimbursement, for a passion play that I did, for some makeup that I bought or something like that, but then every other check was like, these missing residual checks that just came through all at one time, hours after I just dropped to my knees and surrendered.

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[Jonathan Roumie]

I mean I'm just really fascinated with, with the idea also of playing Jesus. You know, playing Jesus the character. And in a way you did Tiny Jesus.

[David Duchovny]

Didn't you do a character named Tiny Jesus?

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yes, it was animated so I didn't have to actually tell me about Tiny Jesus. I didn't actually.

[David Duchovny]

Somebody gave me a tiny Jesus in my travels this last trip.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah, I think I did play Tiny Jesus and I really had not remember that until you brought it up. But it's true and I can't remember. So we share that.

[David Duchovny]

That we share that.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I played Tiny Jesus. You play Jesus? Yeah, I've played Tiny Jesus. So I forget it's an animated show. Something duck is it?

[David Duchovny]

Oh yeah, it Was Queer Duck, the movie Queer Duck.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Queer Duck, yeah. What's fascinating about thinking about playing Jesus is, well, what I said to you earlier, what I find fascinating is this push, pull within the charact factor of humanity and divinity, you know, which we can all relate to just on a human level, you know, but also the insecurity, the. The. The sense that you don't know everything. To me, it's a. It is the metaphor of, like, we get these infinite consciousnesses and we're put in these finite bodies and something happens where we can no longer see everything. So not only you're dealing with all that. I don't want to tell you your process. I'm going to ask you about your process. And also, it's like, Jonathan, you're going to be James Bond times 10. It's like there's a lot of weight of previous performances and historical whatever on it. You can't go into it free and easy. I wonder, did you watch other Jesus portrayals? How did you go about creating this character? As an actor creates a character?

[David Duchovny]

So I had. I've. I've seen most of the performances just even before I was ever cast, because I. I just. I'm fascinated by biblical pictures and. And faith stories and. And how they're depicted, and I'm drawn to them when they're. Well done. I'm repulsed by them when they're caricatures or, you know, depictions full of empty or soulless platitudes that don't really speak to me as an artist. I think what we are as artists and as actors are carriers of truth. And how we apply that truth to the characters we play is the difference between a flat performance and a standout performance. I think when people are bringing the fullness of themselves to any role and the truth of who they are as it relates to a character, then you have performances that mystify people and sort of defy, you know, understanding. And even by the performers themselves. I don't really know what I did. I just.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Good point.

[David Duchovny]

I tried to prep and I said the words and something happens, you know. And so for me, I think having my faith as a background was sort of the best prep of my life for this role. Like, I don't know that I could ever prep in the way that I've been prepped to play this role for any other character for the rest of my life. And if I'm lucky that any of my work should stand any test of time whatsoever, it will most certainly be for this. And if that. If that was the only thing I ever did for the rest of my life, I would be okay with it. I'd be sad because I love working and I love telling stories and I love sci fi and westerns and comedies. But I would be content because for me, I can't imagine a character that is more challenging or complicated or nuanced or mystical than Jesus. I mean, you know, Christians, as Christians, we believe he was fully God and fully man wrapped up in one being through a process called the hypostatic union, which is a lot of theology. Just to say he experienced the fullness of his humanity minus the sin part and the fullness of his divinity while in a human body.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Now you see, that's where I would push back and I'd say, how can you be fully human without having the sin part?

[David Duchovny]

That's why. That's Theo. That's the theological question.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And that's what makes him God and not, you know, we could get stuck on this one.

[Jonathan Roumie]

We don't have to demigod.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, that's that.

[Jonathan Roumie]

People, people, people, give me some more.

[David Duchovny]

Time to prep for that.

[Jonathan Roumie]

People have died over this. People have gone to war over this. So we're not going to go to war over.

[David Duchovny]

No, no, but I, and I share that. Not, not to get into any kind of spiritual debate, obviously, but when I'm.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Being funny, I'm not being dismissive at all. I'm actually. No, no, no.

[David Duchovny]

I respect, welcome this and any kind of conversation, like, I mean, as you, I think you probably have seen or know by now, like I'll sit down with anyone that wants to talk to me from any background where, whoever they are, if they want to have a conversation and know more about what I do, I'll talk to anyone. But just to share with you what, what the challenge is for me going into this, working with a Christian filmmaker and being a Christian, it's like, how do I do this? I can't relate to divinity. All I can relate to is the humanity side of it. And for me, my own flawed humanity will never live up to that. But I can give. What I can give in my estimation of his character and how I portray him is the fullness of the emotional life that was possible. The fact that we write him as an accessible person and what made him so compelling.

[Jonathan Roumie]

This is a very interesting thing because you're long form television and what I should say because I think a lot of people listening to this don't understand how phenomenal it is that this exists at all because it was crowdfunded it was not something that was done inside of mainstream Hollywood.

[David Duchovny]

It was completely outside the box.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Completely outside the box of financing. It was. And it's become a huge hit. I don't know how many millions of people you say have watched it.

[David Duchovny]

We're about 280 million individuals. Close to about 5 or 600 million views.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah. Exotic views. It's. It's an incredible hit that most people don't.

[David Duchovny]

And that's globally, of course.

[Jonathan Roumie]

That's. It's an incredible hit that people don't really know about because it's not in the main, it's not in the discussion of mainstream cinema or television, but it's picked up now by Amazon, so it's readily available to anyone. So much like your story of finding success in this. The success of the show is very unlikely. Very. But yet it is. And the best successes are very unlikely. So just having put that to the side, the notion of long form, what I'm going to call long form Jesus, as opposed to two hour Jesus. That's right.

[David Duchovny]

Or miniseries Jesus.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yes. You guys are going to be writing scenes that aren't in the Bible. You guys are going to be putting Jesus into situations that are not given.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Jonathan Roumie]

And so that's kind of a thorny area, I'm sure, not only for the writer, but also for the man portraying the character in these new situations. So can you walk me through that kind of process a little bit?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. So you're absolutely right. I mean, there are numbers of scenes, dozens of scenes that are not scriptural. Just say it. It's not scriptural. It's not in scripture, it's not in the Bible. But when you read the Bible, it doesn't read like a screenplay. It's not meant to read like a screenplay. It is, as you have stated so accurately, it is wisdom material. It is wisdom literature. And so to make, just to remind people, like even, especially the people that consider themselves followers of Jesus. The Chosen is not the Bible. The Chosen is a television show that is based on scripture and based on the Gospels. And if anything, it is meant to engage curiosity with the Bible or point people to the Bible if they want, want to know what it was word for word. And we bring in there are passages from Scripture interspersed with creative license. Because the only way to kind of tell this story in an engaging, compelling way for a TV show is to be able to do that. There's some characters in the Bible, there's like, there's two lines about them, but they're war to the apostles and so if we're doing an eight, seven season show for, you know, you've got to.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Write Thomas, this is your season, God damn it. Thomas, this is all about doubting. Thomas, Season six, the doubt. So anyway, I cut you off, so go ahead and tell. We're talking about the pressure you have.

[David Duchovny]

Non scriptural.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yes, you have pressure as an individual. As Jonathan, you're like, well, I'm feeling some pressure because this isn't actually scriptural.

[David Duchovny]

So what we do try to do is adhere to the essence of the Gospels. So even though we work through plausibility, we have historical consultants, biblical consultants, we've got a messianic rabbi, a Catholic priest and an evangelical professor. And they all kind of get the scripts before we do as actors. Just to say, hey, if there's any like major red flags, they just let the creators know, like, you might want to rethink this part here because this kind of goes against gospel intentions. So if as long as it doesn't, but it's plausible, like conversations could have happened, then that becomes what we leave in. In order to tell a well round.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I think you are going to have to come back and we're going to have to have a good five hour conversation. I know I've got to let you go in like five minutes or something, but I wanted. Before you go, I just think it's a very human story. If you could share with people listening these kind of uncanny moments that you've had offstage. Having been associated with Jesus in such a profound way for many people. You know, because I know as an actor, people confuse me with characters that I play. You know, I can only imagine how strange that is for people to confuse you with the person that you play.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I was just. We just had a premiere in Spain, which was our European premiere, and I met a number of people that there's a thing that often happens with people, they want a hug, they want a hug from Jesus. And I studied a bit with Eric Morris for Kraft and his protege in New York, this guy Anthony Bova. Brilliant method based technique stuff. And Eric would say on a level of 1 to 10, you have the artificial reality of the circumstances that you are playing in the scene. And so you can drop in on a level of 1 to 10, but at the 11th level, you know that it's not real that you're an actor, you're not psychotic, you're not psychotic. And it's kind of like the same thing. In my experience with many fans from 1 to 10, they know I'm not Jesus. But at 11, they're like, maybe, maybe there's something that they want. That feeling that they get, especially if they have a relationship with faith. The performance resonates with them on a different level. And a lot of them will burst into tears when they meet me because they're front loaded with this experience with their faith that they're connected now to me. And when they go to church, church, they see my face as they're praying, which is completely surreal for me still. And so a lot of them will just want to hug. And in the hug I can feel people just break down and I'm happy to give for them whatever that means to them. But it also, it can be a bit heavy.

[Jonathan Roumie]

And I'm sure it's in the best way. It should be humbling, but it could also be, it could also get into your ego a little bit if you're not careful.

[David Duchovny]

I think if you're not careful. Yeah. But part of my faith process, there's a prayer called the Litany of Humility. And if you look this prayer up, it's easy to find Litany of Humility. And you start reading this, and you start reading this out loud.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Can you give me a little of it?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, let me pull it.

[Jonathan Roumie]

I don't have.

[David Duchovny]

It's long. I don't have it. Yeah. So it's called the Litany of Humility and it's to Jesus. But the things you're asking here. From the desire of being esteemed, deliver me, O Jesus. From the desire of being loved, deliver me, O Jesus. From the desire of being honored and from the desire of being praised. From the desire of being preferred to others. From the desire of being consulted. From the desire of being approved. From the fear of being humiliated, from the fear of being despised. From the fear of suffering rebukes. From the fear of being forgotten. From the fear of being ridiculed, deliver me, Jesus. And it's like you're saying I'm going to submit all of these things that I'm afraid of that would be worst case scenarios for me in any walk of life. Not just an actor, but any of these things. If you really, if you really pray this or read this with all of your heart, with everything within you, and you attach yourself to the truth of those words, it prevents you from thinking I'm doing this. It prevents me anyway, I'm not responsible. My job is to show up and do the job as best I can. And then everything that happens from that is not up to me.

[Jonathan Roumie]

And how I translate that for this show and for myself is the, the, the overarching concept is deliver me from the fear of failure, you know, and then I can. Because all those things are certain, are, are failures of, of a kind of failure of like self esteem, I want to be esteemed by others, things like that.

[David Duchovny]

Societal failure, it's what society perceives that, you know, we should want the opposite of that. And when you, when you don't pine for those things and you pine for the opposite, you actually get the thing that you want.

[Jonathan Roumie]

Yeah, give me, give me a love of failure. If we have a society where people are in love with failure, I, I like that society better than, you know, this society where we're obsessed with winning constantly. So I agree with that. Jonathan, thank you so much. I mean, we could have gone on. I, I could have gone on for, for another hour. Really, I could have.

[David Duchovny]

Well, thank you for having me. I'm honored to be on.

[Jonathan Roumie]

My man. All right, keep drumming. Much to think about. After talking with Jonathan Roumie, I found it interesting to talk to people of faith in this self proclaimed way, Christian faith in this case, because much of what I see anecdotally, what I hear of people getting through tough times, moments of failure, streaks of failure, will say my faith got me through. And that's always interesting to me. Where does that faith come from? And what I appreciate is him having these discussions with me with great humility, something we get into a lot and great humor. This is the kind of discussion I want to have with somebody who believes in a very different system than I do. So I thank him for that and it was a great pleasure and to be able to have that kind of discussion and I want to have more of it. Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like my thoughts on conversations with guests including Alec Baldwin and Rob Lowe. Just hit the subscribe subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com Failbetter is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

[Hasan Minhaj]

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[Jonathan Roumie]

I'm Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls who Code and Moms First. I consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. So why is it that in midlife, as I'm about to turn 50, I feel so stuck? Join me as I try to find the answer on my so called Midlife from Lemonada Media. I talk to experts and extraordinary guests about divorce, exercise, menopause, sex, drugs and more to understand what we're going through and how to make the most of it. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.