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- [00:01]
Maya Shankar
Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar. I host a podcast called A Slight.
- [00:38]
David Duchovny
Change of Plans that combines behavioral science and storytelling to help us navigate the.
- [00:43]
Maya Shankar
Big changes in our lives. I get so choked up because I feel like your show and the conversations are what the world needs. Encouraging, empowering counter programming that acts like a lighthouse when the world feels dark. Listen to A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:06]
David Duchovny
Lemonada.
- [01:10]
Robert Downey Jr.
Hey, just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of Fail Better Ad Free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show in Apple Podcasts. Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium. I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Robert Downey Jr. Is one of Hollywood's most beloved and versatile actors whose influence extends far beyond his movie roles. He made his on screen debut at the age of five in the film Pound, written and directed by his father. He's since appeared in over 70 films. From his unforgettable portrayal of Tony Stark in the Marvel Cinematic Universe to his powerful performances in films like Chaplin that I was in at Oppenheimer, Robert has grown to be one of the highest grossing actors of all time. But his story is about more than just fame. It's about resilience, reinvention, and finding redemption. We talk about recovery and why it's important for him to help others within the industry. We also spent some time exploring the documentary he made about his dad called Senior and the impact that's had on his healing journey. Robert and I have known each other for over 30 years when I did Chaplin and we're neighbors and I had a great time catching up with him. We started this conversation by drinking his seriously delicious java happy coffee.
- [03:10]
David Duchovny
And you know, you want to let it settle for a second.
- [03:12]
Robert Downey Jr.
Okay.
- [03:14]
David Duchovny
But we can, I hope the sound of pouring this while we're recording, while we're good. We have this probing each other.
- [03:23]
Robert Downey Jr.
We have the sound of. Of beautiful iced coffee pouring over ice.
- [03:29]
David Duchovny
It's happy coffee.
- [03:30]
Robert Downey Jr.
Happy coffee. Let me look.
- [03:33]
David Duchovny
It's ready. Try it.
- [03:34]
Robert Downey Jr.
Cheers. Oh, that is good.
- [03:37]
David Duchovny
Yeah, we don't around. Howdy, neighbor. It's so wild, man. We are literally a hop, skip and a jump from each other.
- [03:45]
Robert Downey Jr.
We are. We are.
- [03:48]
David Duchovny
And having known you literally forever.
- [03:51]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yeah.
- [03:52]
David Duchovny
And then having been able to reunite on the Sympathizer a couple clicks back down the road. It's so funny. It's why any neighborhood you're in, it can be the gift that keeps on giving. In most cases, strong fences make for good neighbors. But dude, this is great.
- [04:09]
Robert Downey Jr.
I know. We have to take advantage of it.
- [04:11]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [04:13]
Robert Downey Jr.
Well, we do go back a long ways because of Chaplin, which not many people know that Robert Downey was in Chaplin. I think of it as my movie really big time.
- [04:24]
David Duchovny
As Raleigh Tothero. So you have the best line in the movie.
- [04:28]
Robert Downey Jr.
Which is it?
- [04:29]
David Duchovny
It is. Hey, Raleigh, how's the light? It's better down at Barney's Bar.
- [04:34]
Robert Downey Jr.
I said that.
- [04:35]
David Duchovny
Yeah. It was supposed to be Barney's Beanery, but I think we were worried.
- [04:39]
Robert Downey Jr.
Worried about Barney's Beanery.
- [04:40]
David Duchovny
It might have just been called Barney's back then.
- [04:44]
Robert Downey Jr.
But what I remember. I don't know if I've ever thanked you for this, but when I got that job and when I was on that set and that set was just chocked full of big time actors and you were just coming up at that point. I mean, you were 25.
- [05:01]
David Duchovny
Yeah, 26. 26. 25 and 26. Yeah.
- [05:05]
Robert Downey Jr.
And it was really for me, watching you work and watching the other guys work, like Aykroyd and Kevin Kline, as I recall. And this is gonna sound oddly arrogant, but what I got out of that was like, I think I can do what they're doing. Because before that I was like, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I don't know. I just started. I don't know. I don't know how to. Am I fooling myself? Am I an idiot? And then I watched you guys and it sounds like I'm saying you guys aren't fantastic, which you were. You were amazing. But I thought, it's human. It's human.
- [05:41]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [05:41]
Robert Downey Jr.
I see the work. I see what's going on.
- [05:43]
David Duchovny
Well, and just to go back to that, Klein Ackroyd, these are guys who are in the middle of their sweet spot, Right. And they're basically, you know, batting.500 every time. That said, I couldn't agree with you more. If you want to lose the intimidation factor, go see the reality of anything.
- [06:06]
Robert Downey Jr.
Right.
- [06:07]
David Duchovny
And I, to this day, am always amazed at how good everyone else is, considering the fact that we're all only as good as the magic carpet that either appears underneath us or not, depending on, you know, the rest. Fill in the blanks. Material, opportunity, preparedness, mood. Are you doing that 70% maintenance of self so you can show up? What I recall about you so distinctly was everybody was on this one, kind of leaving the 80s going into the 90s page, and you were hanging back in the pocket and being really subtle on film, which it took me until the end of the shoot to realize that the times that I was doing that, Attenborough was loving it, and. And the times that I wasn't approaching that, he was wishing I would just get back to it.
- [07:05]
Robert Downey Jr.
Well, but you were also embodying a known figure. I mean, there was no real hanging back. I mean, you had a. Yeah, it was a legendary.
- [07:14]
David Duchovny
Sure.
- [07:15]
Robert Downey Jr.
Image to portray.
- [07:17]
David Duchovny
Yeah. And funnily enough, you know, I think when you're in your mid-20s, in some ways, you'll never get better than those early experiences when you don't know better than just say, well, this is my approach and I'm going all in. And at the same token, it's just amazing to be sitting here with you. That was 1990, 33 years ago.
- [07:46]
Robert Downey Jr.
Plus, when I was reading up on you. It's weird to read up on someone, you know, because what happens invariably is I. You know, we're storytellers. We. We look for the story. We look for a pattern. We look to try and put it in a template. And, you know, I. I look at you, and I'm thinking, okay, this is a father son story. Because I'm watching Senior again. And I just have to say that is a beautiful movie. That is a work of art. And I don't know if you haven't seen it, it's on Netflix. It's a movie that Robert did about and with his dad. And in fact, I mean, before I get into it, what you call the bullshit concept of the movie is you're gonna make a film and your dad's Gonna make a film, which I love. I mean, it's the perfect edible film. It's like, who's gonna win? The son or the dad? But does your dad's version exist?
- [08:49]
David Duchovny
It does.
- [08:51]
Robert Downey Jr.
Can I see it someday?
- [08:52]
David Duchovny
A million percent. As a matter of fact, my friend Kevin Ford, who was the one that dad co opted into Team Senior, and Chris Smith, who was the de facto director, just to set it up a little bit. The conceit was it's this documentary that really happened as an avoidance pattern between me dealing with my dad being terminal and. And then what happened along the way is I knew the only way to capture him was to get inside his avant garde mind and tell him it's just the project and what's the project and all that stuff. So I never wanted to feel like I was. I never wanted to feel like I was duping my dad into doing what I thought he should do. And honestly, it was Susan, it was Mrs. Downey who kept locking in with Chris Smith and going, are we getting a story here? Does this have a beginning, middle and an end? And we always knew, probably. And I even said it to him at one point. I was like, dad, you don't really have a third act until you kick it. So what's the trajectory here? And at that point, he was very aware of. Of the. Of the clock.
- [10:10]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yeah.
- [10:11]
David Duchovny
And it wound up being this beautiful and extremely cathartic thing which kicked off this little bit of a revolution I've had in the last five years.
- [10:25]
Robert Downey Jr.
You draw a line directly to that.
- [10:27]
David Duchovny
I have to, because it's the first time I step out of the shadow of being part of my dad's family and that story and into telling my dad's story and our story and the family story. So it's kind of like it's not being afraid to grab the steering wheel of the narrative and try to steer it in an honest direction.
- [10:54]
Robert Downey Jr.
Well, what I found. There's so many things that I, if you don't mind, talk about, about this movie. Because when I was thinking of, you know, what is. What is the story that I would want Robert to tell or enjoying Robert to tell today. And it is that. Exactly. It is. You know, what is shocking is that you say at one point in the film I was known as Bob Downey's son for a long time, and that there is this kind of sense of entering into his arena as a director as well. And. And for me, the most moving part of the whole thing is when it is said at some point, I don't Know, if it's you, I think it's you. You say you're talking about acting and starting acting. Cause you were how old when you acted in your dad's films?
- [11:50]
David Duchovny
5, 5, 6, 7? Yeah.
- [11:52]
Robert Downey Jr.
You said you didn't think of it as acting. You thought of it as spending time with your dad, which is both heartbreaking and amazing. When you think, I, I, I wonder too, you know, if, if it's still on that level. Because you take a great joy in acting. That's one of the things that I love about your work, aside from your technical expertise, is you enjoy your own spirit, you enjoy your own energy. And we all take part of that as well. We all enjoy it with you. I'm not talking about narcissistically, I'm not, I'm not talking about exhibitionistically. I'm talking about, you know, enthusiasm is a word. It's like, it's a Greek derived word that means to have God in you. And I feel like you have that enthusiasm. It's a lowercase G. God is what I'm talking about.
- [12:41]
David Duchovny
I'll take it, I'll take it.
- [12:42]
Robert Downey Jr.
So this is what I'm saying. And, and when you complicate that with a boy just wanting to spend time with his father.
- [12:49]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [12:50]
Robert Downey Jr.
Then I'm like, oh, this is a story.
- [12:53]
David Duchovny
It is, it is. It is my A story. And it's. And you're dead on because it's that Russian dolls trippy thing of which doll is trauma? What dolls? Outside of that one, what's the overall. Well, what's the one that you got to take off right away just so you can actually even do the job? And I think enthusiasm, when it's not entirely exhibitionism.
- [13:19]
Robert Downey Jr.
Right.
- [13:20]
David Duchovny
But. And you know, because we had, there was times when we were doing scenes just, you know, year before last, we were like, oh my God, we're out there doing that. This.
- [13:28]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yes, but I got that from you. Like you put me back in touch with, I mean, not that I've lost it completely, but working with you, there is that sense. And I learned, I learned that again with you because I would like to bring that to other people when I work with them. You know, the sense of, well, it is really just play, really. So it's the sense of play. And your father said, you know, from the moment you were on film, you were possessed. That was the word he used. But it's really this sense of play that I, that, that I think is the enthusiasm. And I, and I also think it's hard to have A discussion about failure when you're talking about play. Because there is no, there is no failure or success in play.
- [14:05]
David Duchovny
No, but there's the, there's the redefining.
- [14:09]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yes.
- [14:09]
David Duchovny
What failure is and what it can lead to. And look, the whole story of my upbringing and my family is, is a, is the failure of the family to capitulate to its own demise and indulgence and self destruction, you know, under the auspices of being artistically pure, which really I think was co opted by a genuine collective, narcissistic, addictive type of entity. So speaking of possessed, I mean, that is, that's, you know, but again, it was the, it was one of the, the spirits of the time was not just counterculture, but even like counter reality. And even in some recovery groups when they're talking about, you have to find a power greater than yourself. And some of you may be agnostic because in the past you had organized religion. I was like, my religion was. We were essentially a drug cult, although I still had a work ethic and I was doing the Kiwani solo festival and singing madrigals and there was things about our bananas life that were as normal as you could imagine. Being an east coast guy, you know, was. There was something like Christmas. You know, we had communities that were friends. I went to school often as not. And there were all of the trappings of just being a kid kind of growing up in the 60s, 70s.
- [15:45]
Robert Downey Jr.
See, I grew up at the same time, same place as you. I. My father's a writer, but he had nine to five jobs, so he wasn't. Wasn't quite as revolutionary as your dad. And that's one of the things. My parents were much more afraid of falling through any kind of economic cracks. So, you know, for me it was like, you know, get an education, get a job, you know, make enough money to survive. Other. The gutter was always a possibility because my mother grew up in a small town in Scotland. You know, what did you get for Christmas, mom, as a kid? An orange. You know, that kind of a thing. So like it was. She had tumors in her feet because they couldn't afford shoes that were big enough so she had to wear. You know, it was a lot of stuff, like a lot of Dickensian stuff. I was terrified of the kind of freedom that I see you exhibiting at a young age or even as a young actor, just so fearlessly free and vulnerable. And so I was like, oh, I want. How did he get that? But, you know, I realize now, you know, you were raised in it and you didn't get the other part, you know, you didn't get the. The backstop or the structure part, you know.
- [17:03]
David Duchovny
Yeah, but, you know, you seek what's missing pretty quickly. And this is not untypical. You know, there's the crazy eccentric family, and then there's one of the kids. Honestly, growing up, it was my sister. She was like, they're bananas. I'm going to private school. Send me to boarding school. I want to go to Woodstock, Vermont, and I'm going to just get a real education, which she did. And I wasn't smart enough to have the scholastic chops that my sister did. And I really liked hanging out with all the grownups, but I also knew that eventually I wasn't just going to be, you know, little Bobby, Bobby Jr, and that at a certain point, it did not seem like my folks had much of a plan for me. And then all of a sudden, it was already just happening. When they broke up, what age were you? I was 12.
- [18:02]
Robert Downey Jr.
We were exactly the same as, okay.
- [18:05]
David Duchovny
12, upstate New York and Woodstock. I saw it, heard it all happen. The skirt and the suitcase, the affair, that, this and that. And I was like, oh, my God, it's over. And. And I also knew that I was going to be saddled with taking my mom's side and hanging back in New York with her, where she immediately embarked on a who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf relationship with this British guy named Jonas, who I adore. And that was the early days. But all of a sudden I was like, I'm in New York. I'm just trying to get work. I'm working at a shoe store. I'm working.
- [18:43]
Robert Downey Jr.
So you're not really going to school?
- [18:45]
David Duchovny
12. No. Well, 12, 13, 14 were in New York. And then after a while, I couldn't hack it, and I went out to California. I capitulated, and with some guilt, I actually started having a bit of a real life, actually going to school, actually being in theater arts. I. I thank God for Mr. Jealous and my theater arts teacher. Thank God for having a teacher's assistant credit, thank God that I didn't ever really finish high school, but I got so much out of it and really learned and grew. And I was singing at the Santa Monica Place mall, wearing a mohair suit, singing madrigals during Christmas. And there was something like normalcy. But again, you know, the, The. The. The failure to ever be able to sustain something like normalcy in a dysfunctional family is. That's. That's the. That's the most expectable outcome Every three to five years, it's all gonna go to.
- [19:42]
Robert Downey Jr.
Right.
- [19:44]
David Duchovny
But by then, I kind of knew I had to go back to New York, and I had to start trying to do theater and make a living. And next thing you know, I was doing. I was in Rochester doing regional theater, which is so weird, too, speaking of these massive circles and cycles, because I was just at Lincoln center doing a play for the first time, let alone a Broadway play for the first time in 40 years, just, you know, six months ago. And. And sometimes these things that were either a way out of failure or trying to not capitulate to what seemed like this guaranteed entropy was like, I've got to. I got to get off this train. I got to figure out a way. And as you know, it's super lonely and isolating when you're really kind of a stunted growth kid who maybe has some skills or some charm and.
- [20:43]
Robert Downey Jr.
Well, to kind of base a life on enthusiasm, as I see it in you, or charm or whatever you want to call it, it's sand through your fingers. Right. And when I got into acting, it was really from the opposite point of view, which was, I'm stunted emotionally. You know, I've been structured to fucking death. You know, I. I don't know. There was a sense of play in me that just wasn't being attended to, you know, so you're coming at it kind of the opposite point of view, because actually, when you're playing, that is your. That's where your dad is involved. That's where you get your structure. You said in the movie that you learned everything about acting from your mom as well. And I saw from the clips that I see, you know, she's very funny and very alive. And your dad is very kind of dry. You know, you're more. You present more like your mom, even. She's like the invisible heart of that movie.
- [21:44]
David Duchovny
Thank you for saying that. Yeah, it's. It's all Elsie Ann Ford, Elsie Downey mom. Yeah. For sure. And the other thing was her devotion to him and her unwavering, blind commitment to whatever direction he was taking the circus in. And it's funny, too, just to double back. It's almost like I had to run away from home and join a new circus to find stability. And that was regional theater, and that was off off Broadway and off Broadway, and then eventually, and thankfully, that was. Here's a name from the past. Great actor Craig Sheffer.
- [22:28]
Robert Downey Jr.
Sure. Yeah.
- [22:28]
David Duchovny
Turns down a role in this film starring James Spader called Tough Turf. Tough Turf, because he Got a better offer to go do a film with Emilio Estevez called that Was Then, this Is now, which was more of like a prestige project. This was like a new world, kind of like weirdo rehash of like a modern Romeo and Juliet. And thank God I had put myself, or I've been put on tape to be whatever. Milo is offbeat buddy. And I'd forgotten about it. And I was down on my last shekel. I was in New York. I was probably not going to be able to make my hundred and forty dollars, half the the rent for this, this Hell's Kitchen apartment. And they said, hey, short notice, but you're cast and we need you to fly to LA tomorrow. And I was like, I can't, I can't. I don'. I can't afford to fly to la. They go, no, no, no, no, no. They're sending you a first class ticket on American. I was like, what? And then I never look back.
- [23:43]
Maya Shankar
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- [24:58]
Robert Downey Jr.
When it comes to growing your business, engaging with your customers is crucial. How else will they know about your business? Or decide whether it's a good fit for them? But the question remains, how do I do it? Not everyone has the time, skills or money to keep up with marketing every day. That's why there's Constant Contact, like a mini marketing team just for you. But the impact is far from many. Constant Contact lets you manage website landing pages, social media campaigns, texts and email marketing marketing all in one place. Over half a million small businesses use those tools to stay connected, top of mind and ahead of the competition. Constant Contact is helping the small stand tall. Pricing is transparent and based on your contact list, so you're only paying for what you need. And they have a friendly phone support team to help with any questions that come up. Looking at the tools, I can see just how comprehensive the approach of Constant Contact is. They really pack it all in there and they still let you call the shots even while they're doing a lot of the hard work behind the scenes. Get a free 30 day trial when you go to constant contact dot com. Try constant contact. Free for 30 days at constant contact dot com constantcontact dot com An Australian.
- [26:15]
David Duchovny
Hiker travels to the American west to walk a wilderness trail.
- [26:19]
Robert Downey Jr.
Wasn't afraid to be out on his own.
- [26:21]
David Duchovny
But Eric Robinson vanished in the Hyuenta Mountains.
- [26:25]
Robert Downey Jr.
I remember thinking, Eric, what were you thinking, mate?
- [26:28]
David Duchovny
I'm Dave Colley. Join me on my podcast Uinta Triangle, where I travel the world. To answer the question, what happened to Eric Robinson? Follow Uinta Triangle, that's U I n T a triangle on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen.
- [27:02]
Robert Downey Jr.
This is what you said. You say, we're here, we do some stuff and then we die. And again, this is, this is true. And this is, it's simple, but it's deep. How do we get in touch with that every day though? Because there's a lot of noise on a daily basis coming to us and we have to somehow touch the truth to live. Right?
- [27:28]
David Duchovny
Well, I'm looking over your shoulder at Bobby and Jack there, the Kennedy brothers, you know, they came, they did some stuff and boy, did they leave with an exclamation point. And that's the 60s. And then in the 70s, I was trying to figure out, do I even know how to become a teenager, let alone shape a life? And then in the 80s, as we both know, there was this really weird kind of Reagan era thing where the ultimate and kind of sustainable for a while front kind of went up, which is this influx of culture led by what do the kids think? The 80s was the time of the movies about youth being forefront on even the studio. The studios were like, well, we better do this. It's what's happening. And so what a Blessing that was. And then, you know, I, I, I probably need to check in with my shrink before we get into the 90s too much. But, you know, Jesus H. Crimini. It's just the turns come so, you know, you're here, and if you're lucky, not only do you do stuff, but you get bites at the apple and swings at the ball and iterations and you start locking into, like, you know, I consider it significant that we have gotten to know each other again over this last little while because there's some people, there's not a lot of people who can talk about the context of 30, 40, 50 years of shared experience.
- [29:01]
Robert Downey Jr.
Right. When you look back at that time, obviously the philosophy of AA or whatever that is, is important. It's important to me as well. I mean, because, well, first of all, anonymity seems an impossibility anymore.
- [29:23]
David Duchovny
Yeah. But you can act as if.
- [29:26]
Robert Downey Jr.
Act as if.
- [29:26]
David Duchovny
Anonymous yeah, you can act as if. And what's really important is the anonymity of others.
- [29:31]
Robert Downey Jr.
Right.
- [29:32]
David Duchovny
It's okay for me to say what I am. It's not okay for me to say anything about anyone else. And generally speaking, the truth be told, is, you know, it's hilarious.
- [29:41]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yeah.
- [29:42]
David Duchovny
I'm one of, like, three people who's the first call for any Hollywood crisis having to do with drugs and alcohol or, you know, horrific misbehavior, which is both an honor and a. It's kind of funny because I did not think I would ever be part of any crisis team on the right side of history.
- [30:07]
Robert Downey Jr.
You take the call.
- [30:08]
David Duchovny
One must.
- [30:08]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yeah.
- [30:09]
David Duchovny
If for no other reason, that it's always interesting to have the there but for the grace of God. And also the, you know what? The Here we do stuff and we die. Sometimes we're here, we die and then we do stuff. And those deaths are critical. And as long as they're not entirely physical, they can wind up being what makes us.
- [30:37]
Robert Downey Jr.
For me, what is rigorous in the AA stuff. And what I got out of it, what I continue to get out of it is the honesty is the responsibility and the honesty, because I was never honest before that, I was always kind of withholding something or afraid to be fully myself. The idea being if I was fully myself, then I wouldn't be lovable or acceptable or something. And I also found, interestingly, before I was exposed to that, I was very kind of heady or psychological. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna, I'm going to figure this out. You know, I'm going to figure me out. I'm going to tell my story. I'm going to figure out my edible story, whatever it was, make my movie, and then I'll be okay, you know. And then I began to think that understanding is kind of the booby prize and that right action actually was going to lead to right thinking. And to me that was so topsy turvy.
- [31:59]
David Duchovny
It's nuts, isn't it?
- [32:01]
Robert Downey Jr.
Nobody ever said that to me. Nobody ever said that to me. Everybody tried to. You know, you go to ethics, you go to Bible class, you know, you learn what it is to be a good person. But you don't learn how to be a good person.
- [32:15]
David Duchovny
No. And you know, nobody wants to do the next right thing every time.
- [32:20]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yeah.
- [32:21]
David Duchovny
And again we come from hopefully the last vestige of a written whatchamacallit. It's a get out of jail free card for having a moral psychology. I mean actually it's back in a big way, but it's more out there in the writ large way. I'm talking about from, from our generation. Not to speak for our generation, no, but you know, it was the live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse came out of that mid century kind of Jimmy Dean thing. We were seeing it happen so we kind of made light of it and act like, hey, maybe that's the way. Because it seemed like the way a lot of us were comporting ourselves. That was definitely on the table. And now it really does seem like stick around, like slow down, do the next right thing. There's a natural stoicism that descends upon every ounce of wisdom I have ever accumulated, whether I've been able to keep it all or not. But I've kept my nose clean, you know, and, and I know how to suit up and show up. And I do love, I do love just being able to be on what seems like a leveled playing field because I'm not kicking myself in the nuts, you know, and, and, and I like it and I like like minded people and I am crazy for community.
- [33:54]
Robert Downey Jr.
The community. You feel like that is your search, that is your family, as is that.
- [33:59]
David Duchovny
It'S this, it's my recovery world. It's definitely my family, created family. But it's also this odd thing of just like, you know, you wind up kind of like taking on a responsibility to put the best version of yourself.
- [34:20]
Robert Downey Jr.
Were you afraid that your enthusiasm was somehow part and parcel air quotes that it, that it had to do with drug taking or drinking, that it was accessed that way?
- [34:39]
David Duchovny
No, because I never found, I never found that. I was like Doing great, anything. When I was in my disease, I always felt a little bit ashamed because, you know, everyone has a. The, you know, the body keeps the score and, you know, and history was there. And I was also seeing, you know, if you look at this in the context of all the folks we lost in the 80s and 90s, you know, in cross culturally, it was kind of like, this is hugely irresponsible to not address this. And I had also been one of those people who was like, you know, trying to get sober forever. But like you said, I strangely was missing that critical component of rigorous honesty. And I also wasn't aware that I was missing that critical component. Didn't mean I was full of shit or pathological. It just meant that so many things were repressed and unconscious and even back then. So going back to like when we first met, I remember like one of the first turns was like prepping to play chaplain and realizing this is any and everything I ever could have asked for. I am now battling my own proclivities to self medicate and also completely obsessed with making dad, I mean, Sir Richard Attenborough proud of me being able to portray this guy, which by the way, he, by the time he had cast me, all the endorsement I ever could have wanted from this incredible iconic writer, director, you know, philanthropist guy, was already there. But then, as we know, you know, the best part of any job is the casting announcement. You're like, God, that looks good for us.
- [36:34]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yeah.
- [36:34]
David Duchovny
And then you got to go do it.
- [36:36]
Robert Downey Jr.
How long did you have to prepare?
- [36:38]
David Duchovny
Well, they kept pulling the financing, so it extended and extended. So every time I think we've got to be like, Robert, if you could just hold fast, I think we can get the other 11 million from. Is it Carolco? Who are the boys who did Total Recall or, you know, whatever. Mario Casar, God bless him. And so I kept having more time to prep and I went quite obsessive with it. The next time I got that obsessive was when I had the Iron man screen test. But again, it's that thing of find a new obsession, find a new area to make new mistakes in that are falling forward.
- [37:22]
Robert Downey Jr.
You got obsessed about the Iron man screen test in the same way.
- [37:26]
David Duchovny
You would not believe it.
- [37:29]
Robert Downey Jr.
I would not believe it.
- [37:30]
David Duchovny
Well, I mean, at that point, thank God Disney had approved me playing a role in a Disney film. Thank God for Tim Allen too, called Shaggy Dog. And that meant that Disney said I was hireable. And if not for that piece, there's no way that Favreau and Feige ever could have made a case to give me what was going to be $150 million swing at launching a cinematic universe, which sounded like kind of not really feasible anyway. And knowing that I was going to screen test and knowing that the odds might be stacked against me unless, you know. But I refuse to capitulate. Even when John said I don't think it's going to happen, I was like, that's all right, dude. I refuse to disbelieve. And so let me know if and when it comes back around. But like you said, I'm just going to train. I've been clean long enough that I now just needed a reason to live. Aside from my, my firstborn and my ex and Susan and you know, all that stuff. Obsessed.
- [38:34]
Robert Downey Jr.
How long, how long was that process?
- [38:37]
David Duchovny
It was months. But you know, when you're running things and you're running it and then you're off book and then you go it, I'm running it again. And then you think about it and then you make more notes. And then I was had like a little gunsit of like things and like this Korean energy healer I'd been to and I just started building up this almost prayer wheel of why not me?
- [39:01]
Robert Downey Jr.
Oh.
- [39:02]
David Duchovny
Which honestly, it flew in the face of every failure I'd ever witnessed, participated in or brought upon myself.
- [39:09]
Robert Downey Jr.
How so?
- [39:11]
David Duchovny
Because it was a single mindedness of when I think about this, I only think about there is no way that I don't deserve to have this opportunity which always felt almost a little like speaking spells in Latin and like bad people shouldn't be able to do that, you know what I mean? Or only bad people do that. And then it was just this growing sense of I am ready, I am prepared, I am well, I am sound of mind and body. And I see a way to not just me, me, me, I get mine. Look at everybody. I'm on a different. I'm on a different, you know, level, but more that I would get to see what it's like to operate at this level and try to be a good, a good host of this experience throughout, which is a lot harder, you know, again getting the job. It's funny too. I'd started really getting serious about martial arts a few years beforehand. And I was on the mat with my sifu in the middle of a lesson when he let me bow off the mat and take a break to take the call to have Brian Lord tell me that I got it. I'm Hassan Minhaj and I have been lying to you. I only Pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are way too afraid to ask. People like Senator Elizabeth Warren. Is America too dumb for democracy?
- [40:54]
Robert Downey Jr.
Outrageous.
- [40:55]
David Duchovny
Parenting expert Dr. Becky how do you skip consequences without raising a psychopath? That's a good question. Listen to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know from Lemonada Media. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [41:06]
Maya Shankar
As the day wraps up, get the scoop on what's been happening with here's the Scoop, a new podcast from NBC News with me, your host, Yasmin Vasugian, along with Morgan Chesky and Brian Chung. We'll take a deep dive into the day's top stories with NBC News trusted journalists. It's a fresh take that's sharp, thoughtful, and it's informative, bringing you closer to the headlines and conversations that are shaping our world. From the front page to the zeitgeist, all in 15 minutes or less. Here's the scoop from NBC News. Listen Daily wherever you get your podcasts.
- [41:54]
Robert Downey Jr.
When you spoke or when you said in the, in the, in senior, that when you're acting, you're with your father, that's. It made me realize that I, I get that through writing. My father was a writer.
- [42:06]
David Duchovny
I did, of course.
- [42:07]
Robert Downey Jr.
And I realized that I'm speaking to my ancestors, you know, or that I'm, I'm joining the conversation. And it made me think of you, you know, joining the conversation when you're, when you're too young to know exactly what the fuck you're really joining. And then to go back to him at whatever age you were a few years ago.
- [42:29]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [42:29]
Robert Downey Jr.
And to start that conversation again and to start it as a friendly competition in a way, like two guys are going to make different movies. There's so much in that, so much in that film that is, is so personal. It's so personal that it, it kind of, it goes by, you know, because people are not accustomed to seeing that kind of unvarnished approach.
- [43:01]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [43:01]
Robert Downey Jr.
Under the guise of art. Because you don't, you know, you're still charming and, you know, there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of just like you breaking down. It's not like that. But there is so much just in the setup. That's what got me.
- [43:16]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [43:16]
Robert Downey Jr.
And when you say at the very end, and forgive me for bringing up a difficult moment.
- [43:21]
David Duchovny
No, please.
- [43:22]
Robert Downey Jr.
But you say to your dad, I mean, I can't even, like, you say closer, get closer. Get Closer and then closer. You're talking about the camera, but you're not talking about. To me, it was like, oh, my God. He's managed to metaphorically put together the two poles of his life, of a camera moving closer and him moving closer to his father at the same time. Wonder if he's aware of it in the moment or if you were ever aware of looking. But I certainly was aware in the moment.
- [43:56]
David Duchovny
I was just daunted by the fact that that's where I was at in my trajectory with him. And it's so easy for us, right? You're a prolific writer. You write a bunch of great books. You know, you look back on it and they go, well, how did you do that? And when you did this? And you're going to like, oh, I was. And it's all these. It's the whole support staff, seen and unseen, living and deceased, and perhaps even as yet unborn. It was my missus saying, you've got to finish this up. Don't cheese out. You have to face this. And also, you can't make this documentary seem like a senior movie, Chris Smith. And I will not fucking allow it. Because you need to make a clear narrative. That's how you take the mantle just in personal responsibility, is you tell this in acts. And the only way he wants to deal with his past, the artifacts of his own emotional truth, is by couching them and talking about the film he was doing at that time. And you don't need to be that. But there's also something perfect about your dad's refusal to capitulate to any kind of dialogue besides that, until the very end when I think, and I actually found it very brave of him, you know, he did not die like a coward.
- [45:22]
Robert Downey Jr.
No. Charlie Parkinson.
- [45:24]
David Duchovny
Yeah. He did not go gently into that good night. He went. I think he was spared that cruel fate of having to have the last image of someone who's been such an imprint on in so many people now, too. I mean, gosh, you know, there's some people who I will still only ever be seniors, kid Paul Thomas Anderson, and even our recently deceased icon, Norman Learning. You know, I was only ever Bobby to him because he had such an attachment, a fascination and appreciation for my dad that he just saw me grow up under that. And then I just wound up in the industry and did pretty well for myself. Yeah, I think he appreciated the fact that I'd kind of, you know, figured out how to stop the bleeding on the. The family propensity for. For drug dependency. But honestly, you know, he was impervious to that. He was just more like, there's artists and there's everybody else for. For Norman, you know? But honestly, I'm so glad that this is where you wanted to. To hang for a bit, because it's been a couple years. And the great thing about Netflix is you are the belle of the ball, and everybody gets a chance to see it. And the great thing about Netflix is then it winds up like you're in some fucking drunk dude saddlebag, and there's no way to find you again, and you just maybe never even know it was ever done.
- [46:51]
Robert Downey Jr.
Well, you did. Did give it a title. That's hard to. The algorithm doesn't like. Right. Because I was like, senior or senior. Sr. It's sr.
- [46:59]
David Duchovny
Yes. Quote, capital S, lowercase R, period.
- [47:03]
Robert Downey Jr.
Well, I just went through this with Bucky Dent.
- [47:06]
David Duchovny
Yes.
- [47:06]
Robert Downey Jr.
They made me call it Reverse the Curse. Nobody found it. Anyway, so. So you can have curse in the title, but you can't have a curse in the title. So Bucky Dent. No, but Reverse the Curse. Okay, but. But what I want to say to you about you in that film is you're so gentle with your dad, and I know there's got to be. There's ambivalence. I mean, the movie is. You know, it's in the ambivalence of how I was raised in this chaos, you know, and here's my dad, who gave me the gift of that chaos that I wouldn't. Because you are a guy. You're a magical being, Robert. You are. Don't look at me that way. Let me tell you the straight truth. You play with that chaos. You have it in you, and you have somehow been able to not only master it in certain performances, but also make a life, and a life that is solid. But your dad kind of brought that to you, you know, and to. To honor that in him and to withhold the kind of. But you didn't give me the other stuff.
- [48:25]
David Duchovny
Yeah. You know, what he did do was he had a moment, not like mine, where he said, I'm done. And so for the last.
- [48:34]
Robert Downey Jr.
Without aa, he just said, yeah, maybe.
- [48:36]
David Duchovny
Definitely not the way I did it, but a way that was like a white lightning moment. Those things that you hear about in the L, but they very seldom occur. And then he really did a karma cleanup tour. I mean, he was on the.
- [48:52]
Robert Downey Jr.
I don't just mean drugs. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, revolutionary. Right?
- [48:56]
David Duchovny
Completely.
- [48:57]
Robert Downey Jr.
You have that spirit.
- [48:58]
David Duchovny
Well, he was also just a absolute accessible still him. But he settled and was accessible and was consistent and was communicative and caring and just very strangely dependable, which almost made it even worse because you go, wait a minute.
- [49:23]
Robert Downey Jr.
Wait. Nobody believes you. Yeah, Robert, what are you talking about? Yeah, your dad's solid as hell.
- [49:27]
David Duchovny
And it's weird, too, because it's these. It's the playing with extremes. Like, yes, I can thrive in chaos to this day, but I love. But organized caboose. I love order. I love design. I love. There's nothing more important to me than domestic bliss because it's the only environment that I can try to replicate wherever I go, whether I'm always getting to be with the family or not.
- [49:56]
Robert Downey Jr.
Well, I see. In your work, I see, you know, the preparation creates the order, or at least the illusion of order or the hope for order. And you work your ass off. You prepare your ass off. You've got a strong work ethic and a very kind of good eye towards what needs to be done. But I think once you. I've not worked with you a lot, but I know that when I'm looking at you in a scene, all that stuff, you just let it wash over you, and you don't force it in the scene. And then you're, like, opening the door and saying, okay, Dionysius or Pan or whoever, come on in. Let's see what you want to do. And that's.
- [50:36]
David Duchovny
I hope so.
- [50:37]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yeah. I mean, that's.
- [50:38]
David Duchovny
At best. And. But look, we all have.
- [50:40]
Robert Downey Jr.
You can't get it every day. Nobody can get every day.
- [50:42]
David Duchovny
No, we all have our tolerances, too. Like, there's only so many. Seeing that everybody only has the tolerance to manage so many things at once. And for me, when the physical demands are too much, I will always opt out of the whole thing of needing to be off book. And I will use whatever tricks I need to use to not be tripping on that right. When I know that the circumstance demands additional activity on top of being more off book than hopefully anyone around me, because I have to carry a certain section of it. So you got to lead by example, this and that. So I'm also, you know, And. And I've seen you operate this way, too. You just got to be flexible, and you need different modes, and you need to, you know, different car, different manual, different toolkit.
- [51:34]
Robert Downey Jr.
Can you. Can you read this for me?
- [51:37]
David Duchovny
Yes. There's a. There's a line missing.
- [51:45]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yeah.
- [51:45]
David Duchovny
Three miles west of Skag Mountain in the Valley of Pain, where that was an evil devil monster. His name is Bingo. Gas station motel cheeseburger with a Side of aircraft noise in you'll be Gary, Indiana. And he loves to hurt people. The last time I saw Bingo, Gas station Motel cheeseburger with a side of aircraft noise. And you'll be Gary, Indiana. He told me what he wants to do. He wants to come down here and kill each and every one of you. But I said to him, bingo. Wait a minute. And the reason I said that is because I believe in you people. I believe you can do the job, believe you can help each other, believe you can make the world a better place to live in. That's it. I find that passage to be inspired.
- [52:40]
Robert Downey Jr.
I agree. It's the end of your movie. Yeah, it's. It's the last clip. And I was like, fuck me. That is. That's a creed. And that's something your dad wrote. And it really. It really moved me. I didn't know. I haven't seen the film. And I just do.
- [52:59]
David Duchovny
Check out Greaser's Palace. If you see one senior film, to me, it's the one that's the most senior. The most about our family is believe it or not.
- [53:08]
Robert Downey Jr.
And you play a kid who is.
- [53:12]
David Duchovny
Killed by neck slit by God and then is resurrected.
- [53:16]
Robert Downey Jr.
His mother finds him and his. Couldn't be much more autobiographical than that.
- [53:22]
David Duchovny
Yeah, I know. And this was 72. Speaking of which, almost 50 years later. 50 years later, almost to the month, I'm back in Santa Fe where we were living when he shot Greece's Palace. And there's a place called the Dragonfly Club where I remember a drug deal went bad between some of the Greasers palace crew members and Dennis Hopper's Hollywood motorcycle gang. And it, like, had to be squashed. And I was like, this is weird. And I was there 50 years later, staying about 40 steps away from this place, doing Oppenheimer.
- [54:05]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yeah.
- [54:06]
David Duchovny
And I was like, I can't believe I'm back here. I can't believe that 50 years ago I was here as a kid listening to these Sesame street soundtracks on. On. On vinyl and participating in this weird kind of spiritual oddball comedy. My dad was directing.
- [54:31]
Robert Downey Jr.
And you. Will you. Will you direct again after. After Senior.
- [54:35]
David Duchovny
I mean, that was really Chris Smith and Kevin Ford, and it was my invitation to start taking the lead.
- [54:42]
Robert Downey Jr.
But still, you're creating the world. That's what a director is doing.
- [54:46]
David Duchovny
Yes. I am both mortified to worst nightmare, realize that I have no business doing it, and I'm gonna have to fire myself and also feel like I am still in an act of denial of any and everything that would Offer me freedom and feeling like I could complete my education.
- [55:08]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yeah.
- [55:09]
David Duchovny
As a human by doing that. But I feel like I've had enough experiences, really. Honestly, just lately in severe discipline, like doing a Broadway show, doing tech week, doing previews and rehearsing during the day, I was like, all right, could I do this, like, for something this difficult for months and months and months or maybe even two years with little breaks? Probably, yeah. Would I. Would I crack up? I don't know. I think I have the cojones to do it. And, dude, you're someone. I mean, you know, the nice thing I know is if and when I write and direct, I know we're. I know my go to players, I know my snipers. I know my.
- [55:54]
Robert Downey Jr.
So write it right as well. Sure. Right. And direct.
- [55:58]
David Duchovny
Sure. You heard it here first.
- [56:01]
Robert Downey Jr.
I hope so.
- [56:02]
David Duchovny
Thanks, dude.
- [56:04]
Robert Downey Jr.
Thank you. That's.
- [56:06]
David Duchovny
Speaking of things to fail at. That's the next one on the chopping block.
- [56:10]
Robert Downey Jr.
Well, I think, I mean, you talk about community and that's. That's what a director is doing, is like you're building a community. It's a temporary one, you know, but that's where your heart is, you know, like you are. You are a soloist who longs to play in the orchestra or build the orchestra, you know, So I think, I think it's calling to you. I also think, you know, your sense of failure at this point, it's cushioned. You've done okay. You know, it's. You're Michael Jordan, you know, going to play a little baseball. Right. And so. But I think it's going to work out better. But you know what I mean? It's like you're still going to be.
- [57:00]
David Duchovny
Yeah. I mean, look, again, it goes back to senior and it's that thing of if the universe is saying anything to me, it's that you shouldn't be afraid to go fully into the family business. And just because I revered him so much and I don't know where these inspirations came. Came from, because I feel like he.
- [57:21]
Robert Downey Jr.
Was touched with this storytelling connected to some kind of creative deity.
- [57:27]
David Duchovny
He really was.
- [57:28]
Robert Downey Jr.
Yeah.
- [57:29]
David Duchovny
And I don't know if I'm a deity day player or if I really have that juice, but I do know that like you said, if I just keep it simple and say, I want to create community, I want to tell a story and I want to. I want to provide an experience, even if it's a good hard time. Yeah, I think it'd be great.
- [57:49]
Robert Downey Jr.
Thank you.
- [57:50]
David Duchovny
Robert D. You kidding me? Thanks to Covney.
- [58:07]
Robert Downey Jr.
Some thoughts about Ralph Downey Jr. I think what's so admirable about his journey is how he's really threaded the needle between humility and humiliation. You know, he could have felt humiliated, he could have felt defeated by certain failures in his life. But he took it as a lesson in humility, not humiliation. And I think that's a lot of what I've been seeking out in this podcast. Fail Better. It's not about not failing. Failing better is not not failing. It's not being humiliated. And yet it's not being delusional like I didn't fail. It's like I did fail, but I'm still worthwhile. I may feel a little humiliated, but that's just the growing of humility. Maybe a little humiliation is the seed of humility. And humility is a good. It's a great good. It's a master virtue, I think, along with gratitude and patience. I'm working on it. I'm working on it, God damn it all three. But I think Robert has found a sweet spot that works for him and he wears it easily. He wears it gently. So I think it's easy to forget how hard one it must have been. And I salute him for that. Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like like the full version of my post interview thoughts that you won't hear anywhere else. That's more of my recaps on interviews with guests like Chris Carter and Emily Deschanel. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonade premium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. Fail Better is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kopinski, Brad Davidson and Jonathan Smith. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitchell Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.