The Grit and Grind of Steve Lukather

Summary

Fail Better with David Duchovny: The Grit and Grind of Steve Lukather

Host: David Duchovny
Guest: Dylan Mulvaney
Release Date: April 15, 2025
Title: The Grit and Grind of Steve Lukather

---

Introduction [01:18 - 02:43]

David Duchovny opens the episode by introducing the theme of "Fail Better," emphasizing how failure shapes individuals rather than success. He briefly touches upon Steve Lukather's illustrious career as a guitarist, vocalist, and founding member of Toto. Duchovny highlights Lukather's extensive work with renowned artists like Michael Jackson, Stevie Nicks, and Cher, as well as his solo endeavors. Although Steve Lukather couldn't attend the recording due to a recent ankle injury, his influence and contributions remain a central focus of the discussion.

---

Early Musical Journey [02:43 - 06:35]

Dylan Mulvaney shares insights into his early days as a musician, reminiscing about his high school band experiences and the formation of Toto. He discusses the organic way Toto came together, contrasting it with other bands formed by marketers. Mulvaney reveals his initial struggles with a broken leg during a European tour but underscores his unwavering dedication to music.

Notable Quote:
– [03:15] Dylan Mulvaney: "I was 15 when I met those guys. We were family for a long, long time."

---

Dealing with Criticism and Authenticity [06:35 - 12:13]

The conversation delves into the impact of rock critics on musicians. Mulvaney reflects on how Toto was often critiqued, especially in their early years, and how these criticisms initially affected him. He draws parallels between Toto's experiences and those of bands like Steely Dan and the Sex Pistols, discussing the notion of authenticity in music. Duchovny shares his theory on how critics often focus on authenticity, sometimes overlooking the genuine artistry behind the music.

Notable Quote:
– [07:27] David Duchovny: "It's all about authenticity. They have this idea of authenticity which goes back to the British Invasion."

---

Navigating Success and Personal Growth [12:13 - 21:02]

Mulvaney recounts pivotal moments in his musical career, including his collaboration with iconic figures like Ringo Starr and Paul McCartney. He emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and adapting, sharing how disciplined training in music theory and harmony enhanced his musicianship. The discussion touches upon balancing personal ambition with professional responsibilities, highlighting the challenges and rewards of maintaining a successful career in music.

Notable Quote:
– [16:58] Dylan Mulvaney: "Suddenly, my hands just fell into the first position chords, like somebody turned the off switch on."

---

The Role of a Session Musician [21:02 - 34:00]

Mulvaney provides an in-depth look into the life of a session musician, detailing the versatility required to excel in various musical settings. He shares anecdotes about recording sessions, the camaraderie among musicians, and the technical skills necessary to adapt to different styles and demands. Duchovny and Mulvaney discuss the balance between technical proficiency and creative expression, underscoring the significance of being a supportive and adaptable team player.

Notable Quote:
– [29:20] Dylan Mulvaney: "We made this incredibly overproduced record. And then we heard the lyrics last, and we started laughing, going, what does this mean, man?"

---

Embracing Failure and Continuous Improvement [34:00 - 48:19]

The dialogue shifts to the theme of failure, aligning with the podcast's overarching message. Mulvaney shares personal experiences of facing setbacks, both in mastering musical instruments and navigating the competitive landscape of the music industry. He emphasizes the importance of resilience, learning from mistakes, and the relentless pursuit of excellence. Duchovny reinforces this by highlighting the value of overcoming initial failures to achieve sustained success.

Notable Quote:
– [47:33] Dylan Mulvaney: "You never want to just stop trying. Yeah, I'm not worried about the next hit record I have or don't have."

---

Legacy and Future Aspirations [48:19 - 53:50]

As the conversation nears its end, Mulvaney reflects on the legacy of Toto and the enduring impact of their music. He acknowledges the contributions of unsung heroes in the music industry and expresses gratitude for the opportunity to collaborate with talented individuals. The discussion concludes with Mulvaney sharing his contentment with his career trajectory, emphasizing that personal fulfillment and passion for music outweigh the pursuit of accolades.

Notable Quote:
– [52:57] Dylan Mulvaney: "What's this? Mateo Mancuso. Well, forget about it."

---

Closing Thoughts [53:50 - End]

David Duchovny wraps up the episode by sharing his personal admiration for Steve Lukather's work, admitting his fandom and appreciation for Lukather's expertise. He reflects on the enriching experience of discussing music history and personal stories, reinforcing the podcast's mission to explore the nuanced relationship between failure and growth.

Notable Quote:
– [53:50] David Duchovny: "I'm just trying to see if there was anything else."

---

Key Takeaways

• Organic Beginnings: The formation of Toto was a natural convergence of talented individuals passionate about music, contrasting with bands formed for commercial purposes.

• Handling Criticism: Musicians often face critical scrutiny, which can be initially disheartening but ultimately serves as a catalyst for personal and professional growth.

• Session Musicianship: Being a successful session musician requires versatility, technical proficiency, and the ability to seamlessly integrate into various musical settings.

• Embracing Failure: Failure is an integral part of the creative process, offering opportunities for learning and improvement. Resilience and persistence are crucial for sustained success.

• Legacy and Fulfillment: Achieving recognition and accolades is secondary to personal fulfillment and the enduring impact of one's work in the music industry.

---

Notable Quotes Summary

1. [03:15] Dylan Mulvaney: "I was 15 when I met those guys. We were family for a long, long time."
2. [07:27] David Duchovny: "It's all about authenticity. They have this idea of authenticity which goes back to the British Invasion."
3. [16:58] Dylan Mulvaney: "Suddenly, my hands just fell into the first position chords, like somebody turned the off switch on."
4. [29:20] Dylan Mulvaney: "We made this incredibly overproduced record. And then we heard the lyrics last, and we started laughing, going, what does this mean, man?"
5. [47:33] Dylan Mulvaney: "You never want to just stop trying. Yeah, I'm not worried about the next hit record I have or don't have."
6. [52:57] Dylan Mulvaney: "What's this? Mateo Mancuso. Well, forget about it."
7. [53:50] David Duchovny: "I'm just trying to see if there was anything else."

---

Conclusion

In this episode of "Fail Better with David Duchovny," the discussion with Dylan Mulvaney offers a profound exploration of the challenges and triumphs in a musician's journey. The insights into handling criticism, the dedication required for session work, and the acceptance of failure as a pathway to growth provide valuable lessons for both aspiring and established artists. Embracing authenticity and resilience emerges as the cornerstone for enduring success and personal fulfillment in the ever-evolving landscape of the music industry.

Transcript

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Hi, is this an okay time? It's your girl, Dylan Mulvaney and I am inviting you to my weekly cocktail party and my brand new podcast, the Dylan Hour, brought to you by Lemonada Media. Life is stressful and there is so much darkness in the world. I think we could all use a little bit of trans joy. So join me every week as I interview some of my favorite A list, celebrity friends and gurus, and of course the Dolls. While we sip and split, spill the scalding hot tea. So put your worries aside and join me at the Dylan Hour. You can listen on Apple, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Love ya.

[David Duchovny]

Hey everybody, it's Hoda Kotb and I.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Would love for you to join me for new episodes of my podcast Making Space. Each week I'm having conversations with authors, actors, speakers and dear friends of mine.

[David Duchovny]

Folks who are seeking the truth, compassion and self discovery.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I promise you will leave these talks.

[David Duchovny]

Stronger and inspired to make space in your own life for growth and change.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

To start listening, just search Making Space wherever you get your podcasts and follow for new episodes every Wednesday. Lemonada.

[David Duchovny]

I'm David Duchovny and this is Fail Better A show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Steve Lukather is a guitarist, vocalist and founding member of the band Toto. Steve, or Luke as he tends to be called, is a long standing fixture in the music world. In addition to playing and writing for Toto, he's offered his talents to countless recording sessions over the years from a very young age, like for Michael Jackson, Stevie Nicks and Cher. He's also released a number of solo albums. When you listen to this episode, Luke will likely be on tour somewhere in the world even though he just broke his ankle. So he'll be sidelined for a little bit, but nothing can stop him. When we sat down together to record this conversation, he just wrapped up Toto's 2025 European tour. Next up is another international leg before their U.S. amphitheater tour this summer. A few years back, he also released a memoir called the Gospel According to Luke, which I referenced throughout the conversation. Luke is everywhere, whether on stage or in the impact he's left on decades of hit music. There's so much to be said about his contributions, especially the credit and glory he has and hadn't received, and I'm grateful to be in conversation with someone who can talk about all this with such perspective and history. Here's Steve Lukather. Do you know, do you know these books? These 33 and a third books no.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

What are they?

[David Duchovny]

Oh, they're fascinating. They're really.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, wow. Look at this.

[David Duchovny]

They're like the Making of.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, wow.

[David Duchovny]

And they're all this size, which is cool.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And interviews with people play on the records.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, I'm a big, steely fan.

[David Duchovny]

I know. So am I. Yeah. This is good. This is good radio right here is. We're having Steve read a book.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, I've never seen this. This is very cool. 33 and a third.

[David Duchovny]

I'll leave that for you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, man. Thank you. I absolutely. I got to sit around my house to get well from this broken leg thing, you know.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, man. I'm sorry about the leg. We were supposed to get together last week.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. You know, I had to bail. Sorry about that.

[David Duchovny]

No, that's all right. I mean, it's an excellent excuse.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, well, you know, you see, I'm not faking it.

[David Duchovny]

You have a. Well, I haven't seen the actual leg. I see a cane and a boot, but.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, I had to, you know, with these. These Ugg boots. Thank God I have them because I have a brace on it, you know.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

To put it in there. So it's not. So I wasn't forced to put on the cast. Cast. I can get the one that comes on and off.

[David Duchovny]

Soft cast. Yeah. Then you just said you just finished the tour.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, we were in Europe for over a month. It was fantastic.

[David Duchovny]

How'd that go? It was great.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Really great. One of our best ever.

[David Duchovny]

What made it great?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Attendance, interestingly enough. The age group was somewhere between 15 and 35, which was really interesting considering our first record came out in 78.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

This is. And we're streaming. Incredible. It's. It's just really. I don't even know how to put it, you know, we're just very grateful that it's happening.

[David Duchovny]

I've got a great quote from you here, which is like.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, I'm full of shit, just so you know. Oh. Am I allowed to swear?

[David Duchovny]

Yes, please do. The more. The more the better. This is you responding about. I think it's about talking about critics. The kids dig it and don't look back at the 80s in the same way those of us who live through. Through it do. We outlived all the history. Rock critics that don't. That don't have jobs anymore because nobody cares or they're dead. Sorry, guys.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

What a smarmy ass.

[David Duchovny]

Sorry, guys. We outlived you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, you know what I mean. I was trying to be subtle with my approach in answering that question. But, oh, you know, that's just me popping off. You gotta understand something, man. I got a little bit of adhd and I'll pop in and I'll start talking and I won't shut up. And people misinterpret that as, you know, I'm on something or.

[David Duchovny]

I didn't interpret it that way at all. What I get out of it, that they call you Luke? Yeah, they call me Duke. Oh, really? Are Luke and Duke?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

How about that?

[David Duchovny]

Ready to go? You know, there was. With Toto, the great music of Toto was kind of critically. You guys were. Were always beat up on the thing.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

The first album, you know, we were rock band. Yeah. We were essentially coming out of the Boss Gag, Silk Degrees thing, which is. David Page and Jeff Picar were starting a band. Still their band, whether they're in it or. And, you know, it just sort of happened all so fast for us. We had made a record before we ever played a live gig. I mean, we were a high school band.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You know, which is something that people don't realize. Oh, those studio guys put together a band. That's not true. I mean, we actually. We were. We had a. Steve Picaro had a band, and me and Michael Landau and John Pierce and Carlos Vega, rest his soul. John Pierce on bass. And then we had three great singers, Charlie, Gina and Lori. And we just did steely stuff. And Jeff Picar was the drummer in Steely Dan when we were in high school, and David Page was his best friend. And they were on to things and we. We all wanted to be like them. They were a couple years older, so our idea was to. I wanted to be in a band with those guys, you know what I mean? Because they were so.

[David Duchovny]

How old were you? 17.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

15 at the time. 15 when I met those guys. 15, almost 16.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And, you know, we were family for a long, long time, man.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, well, Steely Dan got on by critics.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. But rock critics, you know, actually, you know, the critics wanted to hate him, but they didn't understand it because it's very articulate, very intelligent.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Music, whether harmonically and. Or lyrically.

[David Duchovny]

Well, I have. I have kind of a theory about rock criticism and talking about music, it's a fool's error anyway, I'm so over that. I know, I know. But, you know, to talk about critics, I think what they do, like, when I. When I look back at, like, rock critics, it's all about authenticity. Like, they have this idea of authenticity which goes back to the British Invasion or whatever, you Know, all of a sudden, like, the Stones are authentic. When we know that they're. They're not actually. Or if you go back. Did you see the Dylan film this year? Did you watch it?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I did not. Man. I've been on the road so much, I haven't had time.

[David Duchovny]

Well, it's interesting.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I heard this really good.

[David Duchovny]

You know the story, right, of when Dylan goes electric. So.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Sure.

[David Duchovny]

That's another example of when all of a sudden people are saying, o, that's not authentic. That's not authentic folk. And this is. This is what I feel about.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

But who, you know, who's not authentic is the people writing about what they can't do. Just as valid to write about your brain surgery. I found out that a lot of these guys are failed musicians. Wow. Okay. Did you get off today, guys? You know what I mean? It's just make you talk about it, right? We're talking about it right now.

[David Duchovny]

Or if you think of punk, like, all of a sudden, punk came in. It was real. It's real all of a sudden.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Compared to Rocky in the Los Angeles Times, the first album comes out, they put us against the Sex Pistol.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You know, I mean, Steve Jones, great cat, met him several times. You know, I have a lot of respect for what they did.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

But we're. You know, I was studying music and listening to Steely Dan, and they were anarchy against the world or whatever, you know what I mean? And I'm from North Hollywood, going studying music like eight hours a day, you.

[David Duchovny]

Know, but also, if you look at the way your band got together, which is completely organic, just love of music, kids getting together. And you look at the Sex Pistols is the supposedly authentic group was put together by a marketer.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, see, this is stuff I don't know. You know, I'm just. I'm like everybody's buddy as a studio musician. I played on so many styles of music anyway.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

That I feel comfortable in the room with anybody.

[David Duchovny]

But I. I guess what I want to. What I. What I just want to. Before we leave this area, what I find interesting, like on this podcast, is to talk about people. You know, obviously, you're super successful. You're an amazing. I mean, you're an amazing guitarist. You're part of the history of rock and roll and a big part of it. And when you're young, when you're starting out, critic takes a shot at you. It's harder to take.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, yeah, the first one hurt.

[David Duchovny]

But does it get into your head the next time you sit down with your Guitar.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I mean, at first it's like, you know, it's a sucker punch, but like.

[David Duchovny]

At some point you came to just that sense of like, I don't give a fuck what you think.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You think I give a fuck anymore?

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

But I. I stopped dying my hair. You know, I've accepted my geriatricness in its humorous way.

[David Duchovny]

But it's my feeling like that we have to overcome that initial kind of. And the worst part, a lot of it's here. Well, the worst part is when it gets in the way of your work or your creating. And I'm just wondering if you ever like, got to the point where you're second guessing yourself because of that.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You do sometimes if you let like you said, that little earworm, that little germ of doubt start eating at your brain, you start second guessing, you say, well, am I trying to please this guy?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I mean, you have to take it with a grain of salt and go, look, it's one guy's opinion.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You know what I mean? You think that he's sitting in the house waiting for your response or something. He's not.

[David Duchovny]

Do you remember any of the good reviews? Because I don't remember any of those.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It's ironic because we live in as, as artists in a very myopic little world. Like, you know, it could be a hundred people saying, you're the greatest in the world. One guy writes, that's the guy. You absolutely suck.

[David Duchovny]

That's the guy you remember.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And you're like, what did I do to this guy?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Like, I wouldn't necessarily respond, but it would stick with me for a minute. Of course I'd go like. Because then I start going, am I really that way?

[David Duchovny]

You're a human being.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And the other thing is that people don't understand. And I'm not even some big famous guy or nothing, you know, I am what I am, you know, and that's fine because I can't imagine the TMZ crew outside the house. Like some of our friends have to deal with. I'm sure you've had to deal with that at some point or another. Or it sucks. It's like, come on, man, kids and whatnot. Yeah, it's ridiculous. You know, the fame thing. People think that that's a fun thing.

[David Duchovny]

So your, your dream. Like, I've always just wanted to be.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

A musician because I was like, you know, since I saw the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan Show. My dad gave me meet the Beatles and a really cheap shitty guitar.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

With a bolt on neck you know, there's five bucks at Thrifty Drugstore, which I still have as a lamp that my parents gave me on their. My 21st birthday.

[David Duchovny]

Well, you made it into a lamp.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, they made it into.

[David Duchovny]

That's a great gift.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I still have it.

[David Duchovny]

That's a great gift.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

A little reminder of the humble beginnings.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, but I. In the book, what I find interesting about like, and when we're talking about failure and success is like what the initial kind of dream or ambition versus what happens in life. But also in the book, you, you, you tell this story that I find amazing, which is that you just knew how to play guitar when it landed.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It was very strange, man. I mean, I wanted it so bad like every kid who. We were all mesmerized by the Beatles, you know what I mean? I went full circle with that all the way to the 50th anniversary playing on the TV show. The 50th anniversary of them being on that show.

[David Duchovny]

Well, you tour with Ringo?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, I've been with Ringo for 13 years. But I worked with Paul and George was a friend. We worked together.

[David Duchovny]

What a, what a surreal experience.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You know, to go from like, you know, some punk ass kid in North Hollywood in an apartment in 1964 to I'm working with McCartney on Thriller, with Michael, and. And then I meet George in a bar of all place. It was a high end place.

[David Duchovny]

And you wanted to be George, right?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I wanted to be Georgie. That was my first guitar hero. I mean. Yeah, I wore out the needles on, on or I should say just playing the soul of. I saw her standing there over and over again till my old man just went crazy, came in the room, said if you play that one more time. He didn't hit the rock and roll thing was like, he just didn't get it. He didn't think that. How do you make a living doing this?

[David Duchovny]

What was, what did he do?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

He was an assistant director, production. So he worked television, film. So was my grandfather.

[David Duchovny]

Did he work in the like studio television, like, like sitcoms or.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, yeah, my old man was. I was doing Ozzy and Harriet when I was born. He did Happy Days, he did Deer Hunter. You did millions of things. I mean Bewitched and you see the name Lucas or somewhere on Late Night on Hulu or something like this. He's either my dad, my grandpa.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. So you see the Beatles and your mind is blown.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I'm going, I want to do that like every other kid in America, you know, the other million hundreds of millions of people that Were what.

[David Duchovny]

What a moment. I mean, you know, you've heard it before. There are people like you, people anybody.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

My age that plays guitar now or plays in a band was affected by that night. Whether directly or indirectly, that week changed the world.

[David Duchovny]

It's amazing to think about a moment that could be so homogenous, you know, that there could be so many people watching one moment. Because we're so fragmented now in our listening and our watching and our thinking.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I asked Ringo about it once. I mean, it's been so weird for me and the timing of all this. We were coming out of World War II.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

The Kennedy assassination had happened. The whole United States was upside down. The world was upside down.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And these four guys from Liverpool came over and just the sun came out again. There's just something joyful about what they did from day one, you know what I mean? And they didn't even realize it at the time, according to Ringo. They were kind of terrified by it. Wouldn't you be? I mean, you know, when you get a mania and people come at you, say you go to someplace where everybody knows.

[David Duchovny]

Well, also, there was no. There was no precedent.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

There was nothing. There was no, like, you know, Ringo used to, you know, they used to play these gigs where they'd turn the stage and they would actually have to get off and move the ramps. I mean, it's hilarious to think about like this. There was no tax or anything. They had Mel and Male and Mal.

[David Duchovny]

I guess you had Frank Sinatra or Elvis.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

But I'm really. I'm. I'm really taken with your. Your notion that it was a certain kind of joy coming out of world.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

There was a joy that we needed, the world needed. It wasn't just. I mean, we were. Everyone was like, whoa, did that just really happen?

[David Duchovny]

Well, we just. I mean, you think about it. From 1914 to 1945, it's 30 years. We go through two world. Two world wars in 30 years. There must have been a sense of, like, we're at the end of civilization.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. And then you, you know, of course, you know, it's just crazy. And it became this positive light. And then all of a sudden it started the subculture and that scared the government. And then, you know, it became a thing, you know. Now it's hard to tell where people stand. You know, Back then, you did, you know, who the hippies were and, you know, who the straight people were, you know what I mean?

[David Duchovny]

But did you, as. As a kid and as a growing kind of, you know, musician, did you relate to that joy in yourself. Was that what you were trying to get at?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, I can tell you when you get back to the guitar thing. I wanted to play this thing so bad and it just couldn't, you know, the fingers coordination. And this guitar was damn near impossible to play. It's unlawful to start talking about.

[David Duchovny]

You're talking about the lamp.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, yeah, yeah, the lamp. Now the strings are about 3 inches off the neck, you know, and painful. You know, my old man bought it as a joke for five bucks or something like that, you know. Oh, he'll grow out of this. It's just a phase. That's what they thought, you know, mop top on the head, the whole cliche. But it just didn't. It was. Something resonated in me that I said, I have to do this. I have to make this work. And one day I was sitting on the front porch struggling, and out of freaking nowhere, I swear to God on all my children and all I am as a human being, that all of a sudden my hands just fell into the first position chords, you know, E, A, D, C. And it was. And. And the coordination. All of a sudden it was like somebody turned the off switch on and it was very strange. And did you know the shape of.

[David Duchovny]

Those chords or had you?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Man, I didn't know nothing. I was living on a block wanting to, you know, nobody was there. I mean, it wasn't like I could get on the Internet and learn how to play all this stuff. Yeah, I just. I wanted to be a part of that one way or another. I had to play that music. I had to make that sound.

[David Duchovny]

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[Dylan Mulvaney]

I was good. I was always so terrible at sports. Man, I got the beat out of me, right. Ball thrown in my face and you know, made fun of and humiliated and a whole bit.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

When I was 11 years old, we played at our fifth grade graduation at a band and everyone went crazy and all of a sudden everybody was nice to me. After that I said, oh, I like this. This is cool. I can do this, you know.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I got my first taste of applause. You know, the girls went through that. Oh man, you remember that first moment like it was. Yes.

[David Duchovny]

Where was it?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Real Vista School in North Hollywood. By all the time.

[David Duchovny]

How old are you?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I was 11 at the time.

[David Duchovny]

11.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I've been playing For a few years, you know.

[David Duchovny]

Sure. You were. You're a session man by that point.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

No, he had session man at 11. No, I didn't even know what that was until I got into high school. Carl Brothers.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And then we all wanted to be that.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. So you're. What's the gig at at Rio Vista High School?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, just, you know, play, you know, three or four songs, you know, I played, you know, Foxy Lady.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, you did?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, yeah. Purple Hay. You know, I had a fuzz tone at 11.

[David Duchovny]

You could play. You could play that?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. That's what made me a little more freakish than the other kids, you know.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I could play things like I play songs and I had an amp and, you know, the fuzz stone and the guy that was teaching me a little bit and just teaching me chords and stuff like that, he had some great gear. He's older guy. Yeah, let me play it. And the girls all freaked out, and it was really a lot of fun. We were pretty good.

[David Duchovny]

Turn it up to 11.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

With a small amp. Yeah, you know, the small amp. But it was loud enough to make the teachers put their ears over their hands over their ears.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And we thought, okay, that's the coolest thing ever. We pissed everybody. I want to do this for a living. And that would have been, you know, 1966.

[David Duchovny]

So it's part. Part of it was just with the system as well.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

All of a sudden, I was good at something that those other guys weren't. So, you know, that changed everything for me. And then I realized, I'm gonna do this. And then I realized how hard it was to get into it, to really get good. You have the. The tools you needed to actually be a real musician, not a rock star.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Because you said that's like that needle in a haystack thing, you know, it's like being a superstar actor or something like that. Okay, great, but what do I do?

[David Duchovny]

But you. You say in the book where you played a long time by instinct, and then there came a time when you realized you had to get educated.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

My old man was like, okay, you really, like, you're not growing out of this.

[David Duchovny]

How old are you now?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Junior high school? 13, 14, maybe? It was about 13, 14. And my old man says, like, I talked to the guy at Paramount. He's working at Paramount on Pappy days or something. He talked to Carl Fortino, who was the head of the music department there. And he goes, yeah, my kid plays, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, I'm not sure about this thing. But our next door neighbor moved in and he was the drummer, the touring drummer with Helen Reddy or session guy. And he had a house and a wife and a car. My old man was like, well, so you don't have to be famous to have all this stuff. That really changed everything for me.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Mom was like, okay, but, right, you gotta learn how to read music. You gotta learn how to do this. You gotta do this and you gotta do this and you gotta make.

[David Duchovny]

Be a professional.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You have to be a professional. Forget this rock star, you know what I mean? Whatever, you know, but if you're going to be a, you know, you could be a guy back then, before the machines and DJs took over. You could do top 40 gigs, weddings. I mean, it's not a. It's not a superstar life, but I mean, you could, you could eke out a living and be a musician and have a respectable, you know, you get a road gig, you can have a house and stuff and never, you know, but, you know, then it obviously all changed again. Yeah, but that was, that was my. I promised I would do that. And my old man said, well, you're not going to college, so we'll spend some money on this stuff. But if you, you know, what are you going to do if this doesn't happen? That was always the thing.

[David Duchovny]

Sure.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Your old man probably said the same thing. He's like, well, what are you going to do if this doesn't work out?

[David Duchovny]

I didn't tell anybody that I was pursuing acting. I was too scared. Now I was in graduate school for English literature. I was going to be a professor and a teacher. And then I got into acting through writing, through trying to write plays. But I didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell anybody. I was just hoping I'd get a job and then I could tell people what I was doing.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Right, sure.

[David Duchovny]

So I understand that kind of fear and that pressure, but you're lucky that you had parents that were.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Listen, I could have gotten a DGA man, you know, easily because the grandfathered in. Literally my grandfather and my dad.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I could have got in if that's what I wanted to do. Because my dad didn't want to be in show businessman. He just. It was a gig for him.

[David Duchovny]

Right, right. It was work a day.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

When you, when you went to learn.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

The instrument, it was very difficult.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Did it change the way you play?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, it had to. You know, all of a sudden I could play anything I heard on, you know, reading the notes.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And then he'd screw it up, and now I had really good ears. So he'd yell at me and go, you're using your ears now. I'm not going to do that. You could tell it's the same. Yeah. He goes, I'm giving you the same level of reading, but you're copying what I gave you last week. You're not reading the notes today, sight reading them.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

So he would get upset with me sometimes. He was great. He was great. God bless him. Jimmy Weibel.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I immersed myself in studies for like four, four years of training. That would have taken somebody else 15, you know, 10, 15 years to get it together. And then I was thrown into it. I'm very lucky to be geographically placed to get the opportunity. But you walk in the door, do you get called back?

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Then it's not luck, then it's a little more. You had some skill or something, but.

[David Duchovny]

You didn't, you didn't feel the tension between whatever was natural to you and whatever was school.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It was hard for me because, I mean, it'd be really frustrating to play dumb stuff, you know?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

When you really wanted to just shred or whatever, you know what I mean? But the discipline. See, everybody now, the first thing they learn is really complicated stuff as opposed to, like, you know, if I could play an E chord and strum along with somebody, then I was considered amazing.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

How can this little kid do that?

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Nowadays it's like, you know, you're the fastest guitar player in the world is four years old in Japan.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It's kind of laughed. It doesn't mean anything anymore.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, well, yeah, you can see it on YouTube.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

No, you can. It's like everything you can see on YouTube.

[David Duchovny]

When I started, when I started playing guitar, I was 50 already. And I started playing at 50. Yeah. I'm not a good player. I just play well enough to throw chords together and write songs, but I can't.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You don't look like you're older than that.

[David Duchovny]

I can. Thank you. I can't play really well at all, but I, I, I, I can play well enough to write songs, but I, I started writing with a, a friend of mine named Keaton Simons, who's a really great guitarist. I don't know if you know him, but he's a great singer, songwriter, guitarist. And he said. And I was writing songs with the few chords that I knew. I remember writing a song that began in A minor and then the, the chorus was in a. You know, like, nobody's really going to do that if they know what they're doing. But Keaton said, I like your songs because you make mistakes that are interesting.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

Because you don't know what you're. Because you don't know what you're.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Sound good. That's the only rule.

[David Duchovny]

Right. And that's why I'm asking, like, did you. Did you ever feel like that kind of training, as helpful as it was for you to become a professional. Oh, my gosh. But that it. Did it take you away from the 11 year old? No, it didn't at all.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

No.

[David Duchovny]

It just supported me.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I was still playing bands and still doing what I wanted to do, but I was studying to be and doing the game.

[David Duchovny]

But do you feel like there's a sacrifice of. For lack of a better word, like soul or instinct or.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

No, that's the biggest lie in the world.

[David Duchovny]

It is the biggest lie.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, is being smart a deficit?

[David Duchovny]

No.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

No foreign language. Does that make you dumb? No, it doesn't make you dumb. It makes you. It doesn't. It doesn't mean you can't go to France if you don't speak French. But it helps.

[David Duchovny]

But you can learn technical proficiency, but you can't learn touch or feel.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You can't learn, like, all of a sudden. Well, I learned some chords, so I'm gonna write a song like Paul McCartney.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It doesn't work that way.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

That's something else. Because it's the same chords.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You can sit down at a piano or a guitar and play an E chord or something like that, and it's the same E chord everybody plays.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

How come that E chord turns into a Beatles song and your E chord sounds like an E chord?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. And it just stays there. Did you see that Rick Rubin show with Paul McCartney?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I haven't seen the show.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, you'd love that. Because I think Paul sits at the piano and says, well, I only knew three chords on the piano, you know.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And they sure still made the most of them.

[David Duchovny]

Exactly, exactly. But I think that's also. And maybe you can speak to this in. In terms of toto. It's also the chemistry of people coming together.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. There's definitely is a reality, and I've had to deal with that because there's been several versions of my band. Sometimes it's not our fault.

[David Duchovny]

What do you mean?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You know, the death of two brothers in the band, people not wanting to do it. People ill. Yeah. I mean, our singer Bobby's got dementia real bad, you know, bless him, you know, And Paige is not built to tour anymore. But although he is involved in the business and stuff, Steve had no interest in touring or he's just. I don't know what he's doing right now. I wish him well, but I. I don't really see anybody anymore. I'm working. I'm in Ringo's band. I'm in the toto thing that we keep working a lot because things are going really, really well. Might as well parlay it, you know. Yeah, you know, if nobody showed up, we be out of business.

[David Duchovny]

Do you have a hunger to write new music and to collaborate with your old collaborators? Forget about touring. Do these guys want to sit down?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

We did that, you know, we've done it on our solo records and stuff like that, which we do. Kind of playfully trying to simplify it. You know, we know what the deal is when we go on the road. We do that, everybody gets paid, everybody's happy and the rest is, you know, enjoying myself and, you know, getting our. Keeping our music alive when it normally would have died. If I didn't keep the music alive, it would be dead. Would have died. 1993, after Jeff Fest. Yeah, I just didn't. I believe that we could do this again, really. At least if I'm going to end it. End at the top of the game as opposed to the bottom of the.

[David Duchovny]

Game, you know, where did that belief come from?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I'm just stubborn when I, you know, I don't take no for an answer. Well, you know, and if I really believe in something or I really want something, then I'll really work hard for it, you know, and if it fails after that, well, I gave it my best shot.

[David Duchovny]

You've seen the movie the Wrecking Crew, right?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I know all those guys.

[David Duchovny]

You know those guys. Yeah. So if people out there haven't seen that documentary, it's fascinating. It's. It's a great insight into the 60s sound, la sound and the Beach Boys and these guys, these amazing session.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It showed people what it was. I mean, back in the old days, session guys were just reading the notes on the paper. You know, if you're in the. You're in the NBC Band and you do all the music for NBC and that's, you know, you're a contracted guy, got a great gig and house and the whole thing. But, you know, as 60s came in, the hippie vibe and the Beatles and the stone, the looseness in the studio, everybody wanted to do that. And so that's when the whole game of recording changed. You know what I mean? You would take longer and you would spend more time experimenting with sounds in the studio. And you get a little. Sometimes you just write in the studio and.

[David Duchovny]

But so if you're. You start. You're aware of the Wrecking Crew Tedesco and.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, the irony is I went to. I went to grammar school with Steve Caton, who was a guitar player, and his father was Roy Caton, who was the. The contractor for all those Wrecking Crew sessions. He was a horn player. Like, he was the guy, the leader of the sessions. He would call players and stuff. So, I mean, I was. I was so close.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, but you're still really young.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, yeah, at the time, but I mean, you know, I was in sixth grade, you know, and we were playing in the garage and some of the guys like Tommy's disc, because I'm sure it was those guys that came in and we were poking around at us, looking around at us.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Laughing and digging what we were doing. And didn't realize who it was until much later because Tommy had this real famous hat that he used to wear.

[David Duchovny]

Right. I've seen it in the movie.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

He was a character, man. Oh, boy, is he a character.

[David Duchovny]

Funny, Funny guy. Yeah. So you got. But you kind of became part of, like, the next generation.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

There would have been the Crusaders and the LA Express guys. We were the more rock and roll guys. Those are the jazz guys playing rock and roll. And we were the rock and roll guys that could do whatever.

[David Duchovny]

So do you remember, like, the first session where you added something that was.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, I remember my first, you know, legit sessions in 1976, you know, at United Western, which is now East west, all the great studios are all going bye, bye. Man, it's breaking my heart.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

There were so many great places. I spent my entire list of the best times of my life being this young session player, man, it was so cool. Every day going to work.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

What are we doing? Who am I playing with? What kind of music are we doing?

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Who's going to be on the session with us?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, it was.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

We just roll in and it was always the same bunch of knuckleheads. And we would get always into trouble, but we took the music very seriously.

[David Duchovny]

Sure. And did you. Do you. Do you remember when you felt the freedom to kind of add?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I was kind of like, from the beginning, you know, I. I had a good set of years to find parts. Like, you know, you'd be singing and playing your melody.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

What's going on over here? You know, that's what I read the little hooky parts.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Falling just in the right hole.

[David Duchovny]

And that's. That's what makes the hit.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, and that's what we got paid to do. That's how. I was good at that. So, I mean, I got paid to do that, and I really enjoyed it. It was really a challenge to do that four times a day, every day for, you know, five, six days a week for 20 years, you know, and, you know, and you had to have new eye, fresh ideas and different kinds of music, different players, different producers, engineers, artists. You know, it'd be. You know, it wouldn't be weird to, like, do Aretha during the day and say Cheap Trick session at night, you know?

[David Duchovny]

And did you feel pressure or.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

No, no, I've actually, at that point, you know, at first you're like, you want to fit in and you want to be cool. There's a pecking order and. But once you're in the scene, once you're an accepted guy.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You start to get to the A list. Just, you know, there was. I was confident, but, you know, whatever. Wanting to please. And that was the important part.

[David Duchovny]

And were you still trying to get better?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yes, I still practice.

[David Duchovny]

You do still care. Yeah. Well, I mean, you have a great moment in the book where Paige said to you, you're the best thing, you know?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

No, no.

[David Duchovny]

You should be proud to be a session man.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Right. I walked in with Eddie. Everybody was already there. It was a closed event.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Just to honor Jimmy Page.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

So I went with Eddie. I thought, oh, this would be great.

[David Duchovny]

Eddie Van Halen.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

So I'm walking in, I. With Ed, you know, and there's Jimmy greeting everybody. And he points, and I think he's pointing at Eddie.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. Ed goes, like. He goes, no. And I go. He goes, yeah. Pointed me and comes, come here. I'm looking at Ed. I'm going, are you kidding me? And I walked over, he took me aside, he goes, look, I just want you to know, man, you got something different than those other guys out there. He goes, you were a studio player. I was a studio player. I know what that is. And we were around the same age when we started, and.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

He goes, you should wear that proudly, man. I heard. I read somewhere that you were like, oh, well, maybe people take me more seriously if I wasn't just a studio guy. He goes, you're throwing away something that those guys could never do. And, you know, I was deeply touched by that. And I said, can I tell people.

[David Duchovny]

You said that this episode of Fail Better is brought to you by booking.com booking yeah. When you use booking.com to find a place to stay in the US you know you'll find exactly what you're looking for. Booking.com has a huge variety of options for where to stay during your travels from hotels to vacation rentals. You can search for amenities like hot tubs or parking. And in big cities like Chicago or smaller getaways like Cherokee, North Carolina, I'm confident that you'll find the perfect place that fits your specific needs. Booking.com consistently has something for everyone. Some friends of mine were recently going on a trip and they were talking about needing a vacation rental that had an indoor pool and proximity to hiking trails and booking.com delivered. And if they needed an outdoor pool, I know booking.com would have delivered on that too. I think it's important to be able to be so detailed about what you're looking for and actually find it no matter who you are. Booking.com helps you find the stay that's ridiculously right for you. Find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com booking yeah. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. I know traditional therapy can be expensive. Sessions can cost anywhere from 100 to $250 each and that adds up fast. But if your definition of spring cleaning is cutting costs, don't let caring for your mental health take a hit. There's a better way with BetterHelp. BetterHelp online therapy can save you up to 50% per session by charging a flat fee for weekly sessions and accessing it is convenient too, since it's all online on your schedule. BetterHelp also has over 30,000 therapists to choose from, a perk of being the world's largest online therapy platform. Therapy is an excellent way to address and manage things like anxiety or job related stress. These don't have to be things you ignore and try to move on from. Give therapy a try. It's an affordable, actionable tool that really works. Your well being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com failbetter to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com failbetter hi, I'm Emily Deschanel. And I'm Carla Gallo and we're here to bring you Boneheads, the official Bones Rewatch podcast.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

That's right, we're watching all the episodes of Bones, starting with episode one and we are the right people to do it.

[David Duchovny]

I play Dr. Temperance Bradnen and I met Carla 16 years ago on set.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I played Daisy Wick.

[David Duchovny]

Tune in every Wednesday to hear all our behind the scenes stories, conversations with cast and crew, and our favorite moments. Boneheads from Lemonada Media is out wherever you get your podcasts. What Jimmy Page was saying to you, and I think where you took to.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Heart, oh, it touched me deeply. I had tears in my eyes.

[David Duchovny]

This is what I'm saying. When it changed, I take great pride in the fact that I showed up to work every day and punched the clock and put on my hard hat, you know, and I was.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You showed up as a pro. You knew your words and you knew they were going.

[David Duchovny]

Exactly. I take great pride.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

So that's a great feeling. I mean, that's prerequisite.

[David Duchovny]

It's not though, as you know, as a musician, it's not a prerequisite and it's not a prerequisite for actors either. So. So it is something that we can take pride in. And that's all right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You know, the people that are serious about the work are serious about the work, whether it be a musician, actor, writer, anything like that, you know, artist, you know, there's a lot of people that just want it for the show business part, the money, the fame and all that other stuff, you know, but those are the guys that show up and need the earpiece and show up hungover and up and still drunk from the night before or whatever, having to bullshit their way through it with other people that showed up ready for work on like.

[David Duchovny]

And what happens is the system is built in such a way that, you know, those people, we're not going to name them, aren't allowed to fail because then everything fails. So what happens is the entire production coalesces around keeping that person afloat and nobody ever knows. And is that. Do you feel like that that's what kind of settles you in your spirit and in your life is that, you know, in your heart you put in the hours, you're a session man, you're doing it out of love and all the rest of the stuff. Come as it may. Come as it may.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I've had. I've lived the dream, man. I've got to be in my own band, which is still going almost 50 years later, and, you know, been a session player at the last era of the great session guy.

[David Duchovny]

But then the music survives because the.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Music is good for some reason, you know, this Africa thing has been a blessing and a curse, you know, and at the same time, tell me about that. Well, you know, it's a. First off, it's the least Least Toto song out of our whole bunch. But that's the one. Everybody thinks that's.

[David Duchovny]

What is that? A pan flute in that? What is that? What is that?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Pan flute?

[David Duchovny]

You know, what is that?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

There's a kalimba.

[David Duchovny]

Is a kalimbo.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It's the thing Maurice White used to use in Earth and the Fire. It's like a little.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, that's a Columbo.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Okay.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And. And David Page had just gotten this new Yamaha keyboard from, you know, him. And. And there were some sounds in it that had these sounds, and he just started going for this, and it was like just playing around. We watched it occur. You know, these songs like that are written in five minutes. The details of the third verse and all that stuff. Yeah. But the initial germ of. Here's the hook, here's the groove, here's the riff. This is catchy. Let's work on this one, because this has potential. But it was the last thing we caught. We thought it was a throwaway song, Dave. You know, we made the whole record without hearing the lyrics. And the last thing we did was put the lead vocal on. Everything else was done.

[David Duchovny]

When were the lyrics written?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Very last. The very last thing.

[David Duchovny]

And who came up with that notion?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

That was David Page and Jeff Picaro wrote the words.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I think it's. It's very different lyrically from a lot of.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Very different lyrically to anybody. We laugh at him.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

People try to think we're serious about all this. He's like, guys, there's poetic license to this stuff, you know? You know, you can't see Kilimanjaro from the Serenity. Like, you know, let's not get too anal about this, you know.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Then it rhymes, you know, I mean, let's go back and listen to some Beatles songs and see how the lyrics, you know, we need a rhyme here. Okay, let's take it left field.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, but what did you. What did you do on the album? On. On the record? On Africa?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Played background vocals, all the guitar parts.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, and so you figured out the guitar part With. With.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, just, you know, I'm. David would write these songs, or we'd all write these songs and.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, mostly on the piano.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, he wrote it on this GS7. That's what it was called. Yeah, it's the Yamaha keyboard.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

But it came together. Track came together fast. Jeff Picar wanted to make a big deal out of it, you know, and use loops and do all the stuff that people talk about. Now we were using actual loops that were, like, made on. And you had a hole with a pencil.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, really?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And it was really old school. Al Schmidt, our engineer, was, like, from that era, so he knew how to do all the stuff.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

So we were just having fun being producers, going, like, well, they gave us the keys to the kingdom. Let's use it.

[David Duchovny]

It.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

So we made this incredibly overproduced record. And then we heard the lyrics last, and we started laughing, going, what does this mean, man? We're from North Hollywood, but it's become the Golden Carrot, you know, so you can't argue with it. Then the kids hear that, and they go, what? These guys got 14 other albums out, and the whole back catalog starts to go.

[David Duchovny]

So it's your gateway drug to Toto.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It's our exact lab. And then they find out Wasting. These guys are actually a rock band.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It's kind of like the band Extreme them with the song More Than Words. Acoustic song, great song, you know, But Noon is one of the best guitar players on planet Earth.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And they're a rock band through and through.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

So on their first album, you know, they had the hits, right. People buy the album and hear all this other stuff. They're like, well, is this the same band?

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

We had the same kind of stuff happen to us.

[David Duchovny]

Lyrically, do you feel like you guys had an identity, or do you feel like it was just song by song? What. What lyrics? Were lyrics important?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Let's be honest with. Early on, the lyrics weren't strong. Maybe we're just teenagers and kids, you know, what do you write about? You know?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And David was primarily writing the first couple albums, and then we started. He started encouraging us to write more. By the third and fourth album, we were right. Everybody was writing, but we didn't really give it that much thought, man. We were just like, who's got a song today? And let's put it together. And that was how we looked. We didn't rehearse. We'd show up the studio with nothing going. On our first album, day one, all right, what are we going to do today, really? Dave's got a song. Okay. Dave would come in with a new song every day, you know, with the exception of the two other songs that were written by Steve and one by Bobby. But the rest of it was all Dave. On the first album, every song was a gem.

[David Duchovny]

You're going, okay, so you guys hadn't written before that.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You weren't a real band, per se. I mean, we'd never played live as Toto before our first album, but it was very Much a collaborative back and forth.

[David Duchovny]

What I get from. And I'm. I'm not a real musician and I don't. I don't know music, I've never studied it. But what I get from your particular style, what I hear in you is. Is aside from the leads, you know, which is whatever signature you have, but I feel like your rhythm guitar, that's.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

What got me hired.

[David Duchovny]

There's something about. There's something about your strum.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I don't know, man. I just try to find a part to blend in, you know, that would. That would thread it all together, but.

[David Duchovny]

It wasn't stick out equality to something.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

That you can get. It helps it bounce along a little bit, you know, I was good at finding those little common tone parts.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Stay out of the way, but keep it grooving.

[David Duchovny]

Does that come from. What was the Beatles song that you. That you played for? It was it. I started. No, what were you saying that you played?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, I started saying that, yeah. I had nothing to do with it, but. Yeah, but no, after I studied music, harmony and theory is probably the most valuable time I spent learning music, common tones, how this, how it all works, how music is mechanically put together. Very mathematical. Yeah, it is, but. And I was never great at math, but somehow that makes sense to me more. But I mean, I wasn't Mr. Joe sight read either. I could read, but there are guys that can just do that and they're not really good at coming up with parts for records, you know what I mean? So they do the tv, film stuff, which is all written out. Then there's the record guys, the different set of guys.

[David Duchovny]

Do you still hear the way you used to hear? Not, not, not like just physically, but do you hear those moments? Do you hear.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Sure. Sometimes I forget about stuff. There's so much stuff I did, I forgot.

[David Duchovny]

No, no, I mean, I mean, like to write new stuff. Are you still hearing those moments? I mean, I guess. I guess what I'm asking is more just personal to you in the sense of. Cause I know as I. As I age as a. As an actor, I'm interested in different things. I have different strengths that come out. And I'm wondering if you feel the same way as a creator.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It's funny because until you're in the moment, it's hard to anticipate what that's going to be like. You hope for that magic to happen. You hope for that spark. Sometimes it doesn't happen. And then you go, well, you know what? We didn't get it today or if.

[David Duchovny]

You'Re lucky, you're in the studio, you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Try it again, you go like, look, we didn't get it today day.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I'll come back pissed off and play it right.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

That's usually what would happen if I. If I was working on a solo. And I go, yeah, it's just not there yet, man. Usually I play the best stuff right off the top, but a couple times I've said, it's just not right. It's just not right. And then I get mad and come back the next day. And right away I played the right thing.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

But after struggling for hours going, I'm not getting this. I'm not. I went around the block, tried everything there is to try, and I'm. I got enough.

[David Duchovny]

But if you were to say. If I were to sit you down and say, write me an album, is it going to sound like Toto from the. The 80s, or is it.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

No, it's not going to sound anything like that. That's the irony is, like, people think that everything I play on something is going to make it sound like Africa or something. Yeah. It's just not the case. It's not what.

[David Duchovny]

You know, so when you.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I kind of. I can meld into whatever is happening. If you're working on a particular style of music, I'm all in with your style of music. Let's make that style of music. That's always going to be.

[David Duchovny]

It's just music.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

It's just music. I love to make it. I love to help other people.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Make it. And see the look on their face when their little song turns into a record, an actual song, and they're just all excited about it. You just go, wow, we made this guy's day. This is great. It makes. Worth living, you know?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Well, the last question I asked, too, is. Is. Is like, lyrically, do you feel like you're interested in different things and. And.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, yeah, as a lyricist now, I'm much better at it. I mean, because I've lived life and I've also studied it and studied the greats, and I have more to say. Yeah. When you're young, you're just like, oh, baby, I love you, or whatever. You know what I mean? You're just kind of very immature. Right. Unworldly lyrics because you really want to hold your hand. Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You go from that to Sexy Sadie. That's all about, you know, six years, four years.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. I wish I had that talent, but I'm a fan of it, that's for sure.

[David Duchovny]

But You. You feel yourself stretching in that direction.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

You never want to just. Just stop trying. Yeah, I'm not worried about the next hit record I have or don't have. Like, my career has been great. I mean, our career has been fantastic. I can live off of it for the rest of my life.

[David Duchovny]

Like, for instance, would you. Would you write a song where you're the apparent. A father song?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

A Cat's in the Cradle.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I haven't gotten there yet. I mean, those are great songs. Legendary. But I haven't written that one yet.

[David Duchovny]

I really thank you for talking about. I'm just trying to see if there was anything else.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Thank you, Dave. It's been great.

[David Duchovny]

I wanted to talk to you about. Oh, yeah, one last thing, just because, you know, we kind of focus on success and failure on the podcast a little bit, and it is so hard to talk about music because it's.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, I've been through both sides of the fence.

[David Duchovny]

Well, this is it. Like, when you, like, so what was the year you won nine Grammys? 1982. You won nine Grammys?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, 1983 or eight or something like that. 911 of the band for R and B.

[David Duchovny]

So now, like, little Steve was like, I just want to be a session man. And now grown up Steve.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, I want to be in my own band, too. I mean, that was okay.

[David Duchovny]

I want to be in my own band. But now, all of a sudden, you've got nine Grammys. So now, like, are the goal posts changing on you? Do you get in your own head?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, here's the thing about. Awards are great. I mean, that's really sweet and all this stuff, but it doesn't really define you as a person. Like, I, you know, I keep them up in them, walk by once in a while. I don't really pay much attention, but I was 25 when that all happened. And so, I mean, it was a big deal then. My parents were alive to see it. My old man got to see his investment pay off, you know, and, all right, kid, you made it. You proved me wrong. Good for you. It was great. It was a great moment. I had the house, the wife, the kids, you know, and I'm a successful guy. And, yeah, he's like, all right, man. My grandpa lived to see it. So it's like, okay, I didn't. I didn't end up a schlub, you.

[David Duchovny]

Know, But I mean, when you sit down to do the next album or, you know, are, you know, I take.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Every day at a time at this point, man, every day above ground at.

[David Duchovny]

This point, but no more pressure. Then after you want all that, I.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Don'T feel the pressure to be anything. It's really been great for me. It's part of my whole, stop dyeing my hair, embrace my old manness or whatever and just going, I got nothing to prove anymore. I've done what I've done. I still care. I still want to get better at it, but I'm not trying to. To keep up with the kids, per se. I've kind of like. It's their turn now, you know, to, you know, to let them blow up their vibe, you know, I'm just staying true to what I do and I'm enjoying this part of my life because I don't have to be in that competition, fastest gun in the west and all that. Who's on top, who I got to be as good as that. I gotta, you know, I'm like, enjoy, man. I'm. I'm real happy and honored to have gotten a little piece of the acre.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

That I got lot.

[David Duchovny]

And you like being a supporter of?

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah, I like doing it all.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

I'm a ham bone up front. I'm also a great supporting player.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

And I don't have any head trips about it.

[David Duchovny]

Tell me some of the unsung great players that you want to just show.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Oh, my gosh, there's so many of them. Greg Cock, he's. He's just like the. A little bit older guy around my age, just. Just getting his. His. He's getting his due. What's this? Mateo Mancuso.

[David Duchovny]

I don't know.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Well, forget about it.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Then there's Guthrie Govan. Then there's all the other legendary guys that we all know and love. You know, sat by Petrucci, Steve Morris, Michael Landau, One of the greats. I could. Eric Johnson. I could. Andy Timmons. I could go on. On Jeff Coleman.

[David Duchovny]

I don't know these guys.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Yeah. Like I said, there's a lot of.

[David Duchovny]

Great guys probably know the songs that they played on. Right, Right.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

But yeah, I mean, I. I could go on and on and on. You know, I'm forgetting people, I'm sure. What about me? That's the problem when she start naming names.

[David Duchovny]

Yes, I know. Yeah. Yeah. All right, man. I really appreciate it.

[Dylan Mulvaney]

Thanks, David. It's been a blast. Cheer.

[David Duchovny]

A few things I came away with after talking to Steve Lukather, which was, you know, I had to stop myself because I'm such a fan of his music, of his expertise that, you know, I was afraid, oh, I'm just talking about music. I'm just talking about music, you know, because I want to know. I want to know about this story. That story, the podcast is about failure. I'm just talking like, oh my God, you're fantastic. So forgive me if there was a little of that. Me just being a fan or me just wanting to hear inside scoop on certain, you know, epics of music history that I lived through as a fan. You know, get the inside scoop is fun. Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like my thoughts on conversations with guests including Alec Baldwin and Rob Lowe. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts. Or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com Failbetter is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinsky and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowland and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Guess what? Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. You heard right, 99%. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts. You're stuck in the past. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Learn more at discover.com credit cards this episode of Fail Better is brought to you by booking.com booking yeah, when you use booking.com to find a place to stay in the US you know you'll find exactly what you're looking for. Booking.com has a huge variety of options for where to stay during your travels. From hotels to vacation rentals, you can search for amenities like hot tubs or parking. And in big cities like Chicago or smaller getaways like Cherokee, North Carolina. I'm confident that you'll find the perfect place that fits your specific needs. Booking.com consistently has something for everyone. Some friends of mine were recently going on a trip and they were talking about needing a vacation rental that had an indoor pool and proximity to hiking trails and booking.com delivered. And if they'd needed an outdoor pool, I know booking.com would have delivered on that too. I think it's important to be able to be so detailed about what you're looking for and actually find it. No matter who you are, Booking.com helps you find the stay that's ridiculously right for you. Find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com booking yeah.