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- [00:01]
Dan Buettner
The longevity industry is booming. Everywhere you turn you're being sold some supplement or superfood to extend your life. But what if I told you that the real secrets to living a longer, happier life are much simpler and they're things that you can start doing today? I'm Dan Buettner, journalist and founder of the Blue Zones. In my new podcast, I sit down with extraordinary people to uncover the surprising secrets to living longer better. Listen to the Dan Buettner Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. The first two episodes premiere on Thursday, August 21.
- [00:47]
Tom Pelfrey
Lemonade.
- [00:51]
David Duchovny
Hey, just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of Fail Better Ad Free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show in Apple Podcasts. Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium Foreign Duchovny and this is Fail Better. A show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Tom Pelfrey is an actor best known for his work on the hit show Ozark as well as on the brand new HBO series Task. Tom comes from a great tradition of hard working actors, getting started in his school's drama club as a young teen and and grinding as a regular on the soap opera right after college. However, his daily act of throwing himself into the craft led to a habit of distancing himself from his real feelings and that caught up with him later in life. Tom talks to me about what helped him get in touch with himself and eventually get real about the substance use that perpetuated his disassociation. These days. That clarity has given him a boundless sense of gratitude, and we talk about that too. We also talk about our love of acting and how plain fun it can be. Plus how it feels to finally be cast as a leading man. It's a wonderful conversation and one I feel really grateful to have had. Here's Tom Pelfrey. So so say that again to me.
- [02:40]
Tom Pelfrey
So three years ago, living upstate New York in the Catskill Mountains, halfway up a mountain in the middle of the woods on a dirt road, and I couldn't even see my neighbors. Yeah, me and my German shepherd.
- [02:55]
David Duchovny
It feels like there was a move before that to like go, I've got to get to this Place where I can't see my neighbors and it's just me and my German Shepherd.
- [03:05]
Tom Pelfrey
15 years of Brooklyn will do that too.
- [03:08]
David Duchovny
Is that what it was?
- [03:09]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah, I just had this. I loved it. I loved it upstate. I remember as a kid, like going to ski once a year for like three days or something to Vermont and being in the middle of the woods in a kind of cabin, like, it just felt so magical to me always and like safe and I don't know. And, And I'd never even been to upstate New York when I went up there and started looking for a house.
- [03:35]
David Duchovny
Because you're from Jersey.
- [03:36]
Tom Pelfrey
Jersey.
- [03:37]
David Duchovny
You never made it to upstate New York. Not that far.
- [03:40]
Tom Pelfrey
Once. Once you're in Jersey, why you got.
- [03:43]
David Duchovny
Why would you ever. Everybody's asking, why did he leave Jersey? But we, we dove right into that. So what's happened? You come out of college and you go right onto a soap opera.
- [03:55]
Right.
- [03:57]
What were the parameters for your sense of success or failure at that point? Because you came to acting in your late teens?
- [04:05]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah, 14.
- [04:06]
David Duchovny
Oh, 14.
- [04:07]
Yeah.
- [04:08]
Oh, that was early.
- [04:09]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah, I just. I had an amazing high school teacher. He changed my life. I didn't even know I wanted to be an actor really until.
- [04:15]
David Duchovny
Tell me about that.
- [04:16]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, there's. There's the surface version and then the deeper version, which I'm constantly probing for information. But, you know, it was. First of all, it was the first thing I was kind of good at, which surprised me because I didn't even really know I wanted to do it. But did you have a sense at.
- [04:38]
David Duchovny
That age when you were a kid? Did you go, I want to be a success or I'm just gonna get by in life or.
- [04:46]
Tom Pelfrey
No, I think I want dreams.
- [04:48]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [04:48]
Tom Pelfrey
I think I wanted to really be a success.
- [04:51]
David Duchovny
I wanted to know. You didn't know it. What?
- [04:54]
Tom Pelfrey
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm. I'm thinking once I start acting, I want the, the moon and the stars.
- [04:59]
David Duchovny
Okay.
- [04:59]
Tom Pelfrey
For sure. And you know what? My parents were divorced and so there was this 14 year old boy who was craving a man, you know, and. And my teacher was incredible and he was disciplined. I mean, he put in a work ethic that has never gone away and he was intimidating and he was fair but firm. And a great, amazing teacher changed my life. And like, this is a public high.
- [05:34]
David Duchovny
School in New Jersey.
- [05:35]
Tom Pelfrey
Public high school in New Jersey. Just so literally, the, the school I could jog to from my house turned out to have a performing arts program with a great teacher with an amazing teacher with an amazing human being who cared that I did a good job and that I show up on time and that I ba, ba, ba, ba ba. And that I am. I treat everyone I work with a certain way. And that whenever I do this, I get to be a small part of something bigger. Like an entire ethos building from that encounter.
- [06:08]
David Duchovny
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [06:10]
And you, and you code it. And I code it as. As male mentorship. You know, it's very important. And I think, I think we lose track of that as. As we've kind of, you know, gotten to attack certain male aspects of our society, which I rightly. We also don't want to lose track that boys need men.
- [06:29]
Yeah.
- [06:30]
And they need men like this to say things that are very simple. And, you know, maybe, maybe I'm starting. I could sound like Jordan Peterson from time to time, but it is. Show up on time, be respectful.
- [06:42]
I don't.
- [06:42]
I'm not saying make your bet, but, you know, it's like. But it is. There are these. Be of service, be a team player. You know, these. These are the kind of man to man things that a boy needs. Especially as you're saying, a boy who maybe didn't have as much of his father as he wanted at that point.
- [06:59]
Tom Pelfrey
100%. And my dad loved me, and I love my dad. It's just a. It's just a numbers game, like who's around you all the time. That's. It is, you know, it's just, it's just. And so that went in there and then I never. I just thought, this is what I want to do with the rest of my life. I didn't even know that it was a possibility. You know, I thought, I didn't think it was something you could take seriously even at that age. I thought it was kind of like silly, right? It was not silly with, with, with Mr. Kazakoff, you know what I mean? And it was serious and, and he had a lot of respect for it and he demanded that you did, too. And so that change, I was like, okay, this is something you can really do, right?
- [07:39]
David Duchovny
And so you go to Rutgers and you finish Rutgers and immediately you get on the Guiding Light. Is that right?
- [07:47]
Yeah.
- [07:48]
That's pretty amazing because I tried out for soaps when I was first acting, too. I started a little older than you, but I really wanted to get one of those soaps because I just wanted to work a lot. And when I look back on how I learned about acting, you know, there are certain things that you can learn with A teacher. And then. Then there's the other things that you learn by working, by doing.
- [08:13]
Yeah.
- [08:13]
And instinctually, I think I knew that I needed to go to work every day, that I wasn't going to be one of these actors that just, like, got it right away, but that I'm a grinder.
- [08:23]
Yeah.
- [08:23]
So the X Files, for me, was my grind. It was like I had to go. I had to go every 14 hours a day and teach myself how to act. So by the third year, I was like, oh, okay, I'm starting to get it, you know, But I wouldn't have gotten it if I'd gone movie to movie to movie, just quick pops. So I think, like, that's why I wanted, like, to get a soap that I never did. I think people, you know, because of our stratified kind of hierarchy of what's art? You know, Movies, tv, soaps, you know, you lose track of, like.
- [09:01]
The.
- [09:02]
The moral fortitude that it takes to go in and do that much work every day.
- [09:06]
Yeah.
- [09:06]
And to be responsible for it and to pull it off. And I wonder what it was like for you, like, be thrown into that area where it's like, oh, I got to do 10 pages this morning.
- [09:17]
Tom Pelfrey
You know, and that would be a light day sometimes.
- [09:21]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [09:22]
Tom Pelfrey
I mean, we filmed 55 pages a day, pretty much. Because you're doing a full hour of TV every day, a new episode. And the. We have one week off a year.
- [09:33]
David Duchovny
And let's put it in perspective. For people that don't know, on a TV show, you're probably filming five pages a day. On a movie, you're probably. You could film two pages a day, one page a day. So you're 55 pages a day.
- [09:46]
Tom Pelfrey
55 page. Unless a light fell on your head doing it once.
- [09:52]
David Duchovny
So that. So you teach yourself. I mean, that's different from being in high school and in class with this guy. All of a sudden, like, oh, shit.
- [09:59]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah. I'd never been in front of a camera before. I mean, everything I'd done had been theater. When we were Rutgers, we got to go study Shakespeare at the Globe. You know, that was the kind of world I was living in. And then all of a sudden, you get this. This job, which was so incredible in so many ways, for that reason of, like, gonna basically pay you to learn how to be in front of a camera. I got to work with amazing actors, really good people who were very, like, supportive and helpful and encouraging. And because it's airing a month later, you kind of still keep it in your head. So I would watch it to try and learn.
- [10:34]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [10:35]
Tom Pelfrey
And, you know, one of the things I remember, my first impression of myself was this, like, coming from theater, everyone's like, you're going to be in front of a camera. Don't move. Don't do anything. Like, okay, okay. And then I watch myself. It looks like I have a pole just shoveled right up my ass, and I'm, like, turning my head like this. I look like Frankenstein's monster. I was like, oh, no, I took.
- [11:04]
David Duchovny
It too far, you know, but you got to adjust.
- [11:08]
Tom Pelfrey
I got to adjust. I literally got to adjust by, like, knowing what I thought I felt like I was doing versus what did it look like?
- [11:17]
David Duchovny
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [11:18]
Tom Pelfrey
You know, and that, like, bridging that gap in my mind was the. Was the. Was the film trick, was the, like, being in front of a camera trick, which I never had to think about on stage.
- [11:32]
David Duchovny
And have you. Has that continued to grow, that kind of.
- [11:36]
Yeah.
- [11:36]
Tom Pelfrey
I mean, I feel like. I feel like, you know, I, I. Most things I do, I'll watch at least once and, like.
- [11:43]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [11:44]
Tom Pelfrey
And always try and just think, what could I do better not beating myself up? I really don't. And I don't revel in it either. It's like, objectively. Okay. I like how that works. Oh, I see that. Maybe that didn't work so well every time. Trying to learn.
- [12:03]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Yeah.
- [12:04]
That's great that you don't beat yourself up, though, because a lot of people, a lot of actors do that. I mean, I. It sounds. I just went to a screening with somebody I know, and this person was really beating themselves up afterwards, and somebody asked me, are you like this, too? And I was like, no, I like watching my satisfaction. I mean, it's not like I sit there. I'm loving it, but I do. I look at it as what's working.
- [12:28]
Tom Pelfrey
And what's not working, and that's all it is. I can definitely be hard on myself, but as I've gotten older, it's. It's chilled out because at a certain point, it's just not productive, you know? Like, I mean, I can't help it sometimes, but at the end of the day, if there's something to learn, I want to. I want to learn it. I don't want to start over correcting in bad ways because I can't stand myself.
- [12:53]
David Duchovny
Right. You know?
- [12:54]
Well, I mean, I was watching your recent work, which isn't out yet, task, and I was really feeling that. That part of it, like, that you were pulling me in. But you weren't. I didn't. I didn't. It was really good. Your work was excellent and it was mysterious and you just want more from you, you know? Even when you had a mask on, I felt it was you.
- [13:25]
How?
- [13:25]
Tom Pelfrey
Wow.
- [13:26]
David Duchovny
Just in your voice and very physically commanding presence in this.
- [13:32]
Tom Pelfrey
Thank you.
- [13:33]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [13:33]
Tom Pelfrey
Thank you. How did you. How were you able to do that at a young age?
- [13:39]
David Duchovny
Because, well, that was terror. You know, what happened was. No, really. I think because when I was talking about the X Files, whatever, I mean, I really thought I was the shit. In the beginning, like, I thought, yeah, I'm, I'm great. And then I watched myself and I was like, no, no, something's. Something's a little tight. Something's a little afraid here. A little under the gun. And that was my adjustments was to loosen up. Like, like, you, like, you, like, just like, let, Let the moment breathe, you know? Because at first with the X Files, we didn't have 55 pages, but we had eight or nine pages. And it was a lot of, a lot of this. And it was scary, you know, like, have to act like you know what you're talking about, you know, in monologues like this with scientific jargon and all the facts and exposition, shit like that. I was like, under the gun. But I think what you're asking and what I would speak to is I always felt like somebody's going to see what I'm doing. Like, I'm, I'm not going to adjust it too much because I know even if I don't look like I'm feeling anything, I know I'm feeling something. And somebody's gonna see that. I know I got something here. I know I got something. I'm not gonna try and try and do it this other way. Part of the not doing it the other way was fear. Cause, like, I don't wanna be seen acting. Like, I don't wanna be too big. And that was a bullshit fear. Cause who cares, right?
- [15:12]
Yeah.
- [15:13]
So, like, now I feel much more free to do bigger stuff. So that's good too. But there was also the sense in which, like, I wanted to make you come to me. And I didn't want to, like, have to go out and get you, you know?
- [15:29]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah, well, I, I, I am not afraid of the big acting.
- [15:35]
David Duchovny
But you never, you never were.
- [15:37]
Tom Pelfrey
No, no. And it was also like, I think it was. I think some of that is just tied into, like, in theater to some extent. That's actually much better. Like, it more helped and by big, I don't mean bad. Although I'm sure I've been bad a million times, but just, like, turning up the volume. But what you're saying that to me is, like, how is that not linked to confidence? Like, how is that not linked to. I know that if I sit here and have this thought, it's gonna read.
- [16:10]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [16:11]
Tom Pelfrey
And how old were you?
- [16:13]
David Duchovny
Well, I was 31. I mean, I started later still, man. But I could go back and tell you it's narcissism or neurosis. I could tell you it's. I'd been an athlete, so I was watched. I was comfortable being watched.
- [16:30]
Yeah.
- [16:32]
I was comfortable objectifying myself. I guess I was comfortable thinking of myself as an object. And therefore I could say, well, that object works. You know, I could. I could look at myself objectively. Yeah, I guess. I don't know. I feel like I'm speaking bullshit right now. No, no, no.
- [16:48]
Tom Pelfrey
But what you're saying all adds up to what I'm getting at.
- [16:51]
David Duchovny
That's just.
- [16:52]
Tom Pelfrey
It's just impressive they put all that together.
- [16:54]
David Duchovny
Well, I didn't. Like you said. I mean, it's like you don't put these things together. Like, I wouldn't have been able to write that down.
- [17:00]
Tom Pelfrey
Right.
- [17:00]
David Duchovny
You know, it was just like, fuck. I really feel like I'm doing something and I can't tell you how many. How many auditions I had that I didn't get where people. Where the feedback was like, he's too flat, or he's like. The nice way to put it was like. Cause I was going out for TV because I needed to make some money to live. And the nice feedback was, he's a movie star. And the bad feedback was, well, he's a movie star. He can't be in our TV show is basically what it is. Or it was flat or. Or not doing enough or stuff like that. So that was kind of where I was living. Like, oh, shit. How do I bridge that gap between those two things? Yeah, but you go from the soap, and at that point, like you said, you wanted it all. So you're on the soap, and I'm sure you're aware, so on the bottom, even though you're happy to be working.
- [18:04]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah, it was. It was. This was the. The humbling, like, welcome to the world moment of leaving the soap. Been on there for two and a half years, you know, make some money, get some compliments. Won a few Daytime Emmys, feeling like, surely the world is ready to roll out the red carpet for my arrival.
- [18:25]
David Duchovny
How old are you?
- [18:26]
Tom Pelfrey
When I left 24.
- [18:28]
David Duchovny
That's near 24.
- [18:30]
Yeah.
- [18:32]
Tom Pelfrey
And it didn't. And I was destroyed. I mean, it feels pathetic to even admit that. But I, I was, my, my ego was crushed. And I also, looking back, was the first time in my life that I didn't have structure. Yeah, Like I went high school, college. And college was intense. Like college was 8am to 6pm Classes, main stage, show 7 to 11. We had three black box theaters they gave us access to and we were hungry for it. We'd go every night 11pm to 1am and rehearse our own show. Oh yeah, we'd pick a play, direct it, do our own lights. I mean, it was such an amazing experience, but so busy, just constantly working. Soap is the same, you know, every day, all day. And then to suddenly be on my own with these feelings, like both at once, it was just, it was like spontaneous combustion.
- [19:34]
David Duchovny
How did you deal with it?
- [19:36]
Tom Pelfrey
I drank my face off.
- [19:50]
David Duchovny
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- [22:45]
Lemonada Premium Announcer
Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe make life Suck Less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium.
- [23:36]
Tom Pelfrey
We were talking a minute ago, but you know, I I got sober. God willing, October 1st will be 12 years. And it was a complete paradigm shift. It was a complete restructuring of like what I thought I was and how I saw things. You know, like I am a fan of your show and I've listened to it a lot and yeah, well, I just think it's so to me, the most important thing. I don't know how else I would learn and I certainly knowing myself, don't know how else I would change anything unless things became so uncomfortable or painful or worse that I had to, you know.
- [24:25]
David Duchovny
So can you explain to me the paradigm shift that happened when you got sober? Because I think people are very interested in they hear a lot about 12 steps and a lot of people know about it but you know, the kind of ego death and whatever happens in that paradigm shift. And then it seems to me that in the middle of your journey of life, but also of sobriety, that you take it a step further and you go, you know, up to the mountain, you know, and so are you. Are you there going on meetings on Zoom or what are you. Are you just kind of, like, isolated up there? But if you could talk about that paradigm shift and then. And then that further shift.
- [25:02]
Yeah.
- [25:02]
To the mountain.
- [25:03]
Yeah.
- [25:03]
Tom Pelfrey
Well, I mean, I wasn't really in meetings. I didn't really get a sponsor to this. It was year seven, year eight. It was a very different journey for me.
- [25:15]
David Duchovny
Oh, so you were doing it alone?
- [25:17]
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:19]
Tom Pelfrey
So I think. I think the paradigm shift that I experienced was, you know, everything was about my whole identity was actor.
- [25:31]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [25:31]
Tom Pelfrey
You know, and. And this is. Wasn't something that I was conscious of at the time. Looking back, I can see that my whole identity was actor. And therefore, if I was succeeding in doing well at that, then I had value as a human being. But if I wasn't, I had no value. And I was increasingly struggling to have value. And I was struggling with, you know, addiction, alcohol, and obviously, it only gets worse. So, you know, towards the end, really in a dark place in terms of, like, self worth and direction. And so in getting sober, I don't even know, because I don't want to give myself credit here, because it kind of happened spontaneously and simultaneously. But in. In the. In the surrendering of the sort of the demon of addiction, something else kind of got surrendered along with it, which was. I mean, I even remember a week sober, waking up, like, wow, Like, I feel good.
- [26:47]
David Duchovny
What. You know, what is this feeling?
- [26:50]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah.
- [26:50]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [26:51]
Tom Pelfrey
I've been so used to waking up, like, feeling like I got hit by a truck.
- [26:55]
David Duchovny
You're not just talking about, like, being hung over. You're talking about some kind of.
- [26:59]
Tom Pelfrey
Well, I think there's multiple. Multiple layers of. Of truth to how bad you feel.
- [27:05]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [27:05]
Tom Pelfrey
You know, like, yes. Being hungover, because that was brutal. But also, you know, something I noticed, let's say a month in the sobriety was my baseline had changed. And so I thought a lot about it, and I was like, what is. What is different? And, oh, I don't feel this steady hum of shame and guilt.
- [27:31]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Yeah.
- [27:33]
Well, I mean, you want more of that, right? Yeah. Shame and guilt, to me, is especially shame. I mean, guilt is one thing. Guilt is kind of. To me, it's workable. You can make amends for that. You can speak to the people who you've offended in some way or hurt.
- [27:49]
Tom Pelfrey
Sure.
- [27:50]
David Duchovny
And you can, you know, figure out the extent of it. The extent of your responsibility. But shame is like a free floating. Shame is like the air that you're breathing. Shame is the water that you're swimming in. And if you're not aware of that, you know, then it just feels like you're swimming in shitty water all the time.
- [28:07]
Tom Pelfrey
Well, and how you know so many things about addiction I find endlessly fascinating. But. But like, how could one be aware when one has gradually gotten it like the boiling the frog, you know? And so the. The levels of shame had just risen to that. I didn't really notice until it was gone. And when it was gone, I felt like a new being. And it was almost scary in a way, because all of a sudden there's so much space to. To fill up. Yeah, but those two things, and more like them, but like, led to a very quick realization and then a conscious decision to pursue well, being. Like, I was like, I want to take care of this feeling and this human being, and work will be secondary.
- [29:03]
David Duchovny
Oh, yeah.
- [29:03]
That was the paradigm shift. And that's the paradigm shift.
- [29:06]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [29:08]
Tom Pelfrey
And, you know, maybe not coincidentally, I started working a lot.
- [29:14]
David Duchovny
Yeah. You know. Yeah.
- [29:16]
I think one of the things that people get afraid of when they get sober, or at least I did. Even for me, getting into therapy, like, if somebody's gonna explain to me what's wrong with me or, you know, because I was convinced that what's wrong with me was getting me work, you know, like in some.
- [29:33]
Tom Pelfrey
Yes, yes, yes.
- [29:35]
David Duchovny
So, like, it's like that, you know, it's the goose that lays the golden eggs. You know, it's like, I got to keep that. I got to keep that going because otherwise it's just going to be eggs and. No, everybody has eggs. They're not going. So I had this kind of prejudice against figuring my shit out, or not just figuring it out, because that's one thing, but actually living a life that's in accordance with what you know. You know, and it was tough. What was also tough was like, the 12 steps are for everyone, you know, and they're very simple. And I was like. I was like, I'm way too complicated for that, you know? You know what I mean? It's like that, how could it work for you and me? How can it work? That doesn't make any sense. You know, it's like you got a tailor made. You got to make it for me, and we'll figure it out or whatever. So I was dealing with a lot of that shit. And, like, it seems that you got immediately kind of corroboration from the world that you were doing something right. As you said, the work picked up or whatever. So it wasn't that, oh, my God, what am I gonna do without this darkness and this addiction? How am I. How am I gonna be an actor without that?
- [30:40]
Tom Pelfrey
Well, it was before I did it. It was all those things. It was terror. I mean, I've never been so terrified in my life. I think I can say that, honestly. But leading up to it, there was just a moment of, like, when I kind of realized versus the moment where I. For some reason, for me, I knew once I said it out loud to somebody else, the whole thing would change, that the space in between those two things, that the amount of terror I felt was off the charts. Because it was. That was like, well, who the hell. Who am I? Literally, who am I? Because this is a part of everything that I do, and it's what I look forward to, and it's what I remember, and I literally don't know who I am. And that's. That's the. You know, if we want to get really kind of metaphysical. But that's the part where to be reborn, you have to die, right? And that's terrifying. You know, I got into therapy at some point, and there was. I mean, there was a while in the beginning there where I was like, this is just making me feel worse. Like, man.
- [31:46]
David Duchovny
Why? Why. Why was it making it feel worse?
- [31:48]
Tom Pelfrey
Because I think. Look, I think. What am I trying to say? I think we can encounter people who can help us at a certain time in a certain place, and then sometimes you need somebody else. And I think at a certain point, with the first lady, who was lovely, who said, you know, I went in her office, and she's like, listen, we're working together for a while. And she's like, you're dissociating all the time. I was like, is that.
- [32:12]
David Duchovny
What did you mean by that?
- [32:14]
Tom Pelfrey
Well, I would just say to her, you know, sometimes things would happen, and I felt like I was observing, you know, and. And that's part of the reason I even started therapy, because here I am, sober and in a way, feeling better than I've ever felt.
- [32:27]
David Duchovny
You know, you're making me think of. Oh, man.
- [32:30]
Tom Pelfrey
Tell me.
- [32:32]
David Duchovny
I always. I always say I got into acting because I. I grew up with a mom who was. And I. She's wonderful. She's a wonderful mom, and. But she was fragile, you know, So I had to be perfect, and I couldn't be. I couldn't be fragile. I had to be the guy. And then I always thought I got into acting because I wanted. I was like, oh, you get to wait. You get to scream at each other, and nobody threatens to kill themselves. You get to do all that shit and there's no repercussions.
- [33:05]
Yeah.
- [33:06]
I was like, that's. I like this place here. And when you say disassociate, I was like, I just. I saw it as a way to disassociate.
- [33:14]
Yeah.
- [33:15]
I saw it as like, here. Here's where I can live a life of disassociation. And if I get successful enough, I'll never have to deal with any of it. I'll just keep on going to that space. And obviously the ego stuff gets fed as well by success or whatever, and there's money and whatever. But really what I was going to was those times when I could actually feel something and feel safe in doing it. Not only safe, but.
- [33:44]
Yeah.
- [33:44]
Tom Pelfrey
Oh, not only way to feel, but you rewarded and applauded and all of it.
- [33:48]
David Duchovny
Right? Yeah, but when you use that word, which I keep on mispronouncing disassociation, I was like, fuck.
- [33:55]
Yeah.
- [33:55]
I mean, I looked. I think I was looking for a life where I could continue to be disassociated.
- [34:03]
Yeah.
- [34:04]
And the more I could succeed, the more I could, like, pull that charade off.
- [34:09]
Yeah.
- [34:09]
Tom Pelfrey
Well, I think you're making me realize that you. You beat me to it.
- [34:18]
David Duchovny
But where were you before you made me realize that?
- [34:21]
Tom Pelfrey
Well, I. That's amazing that that was a realization in real time.
- [34:26]
David Duchovny
That's. That's why I always thought, oh, this is so healthy, that I'm. I. You know, like, oh, it's therapeutic. You know, people talk about acting in a way. No, it's like anti. Therapeutic. You're actually figuring out a way to keep your bullshit going. Like, keep. Keep your bifurcation going.
- [34:39]
Tom Pelfrey
And. And you can easily see how simultaneously you could tell yourself a story whereby you are being sensitive, open, available. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. No, that's. That's the trap. It took me a while to realize that, but that.
- [34:53]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [34:54]
Tom Pelfrey
So dissociating. Okay. But then you stop dissociating, and now it's like, whoa, I have a lot of feelings. I have a lot of feelings.
- [35:04]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [35:05]
Tom Pelfrey
And they're really intense, and it's overwhelming. Like, all of a sudden I was like, no wonder I was drinking so much.
- [35:14]
David Duchovny
Well, you must have. I mean, like me, you must have known you had feelings. I mean, that's what you wanted to be an actor for. You wanted to go Somewhere to have feelings.
- [35:21]
Tom Pelfrey
But I thought. I thought that those were things that I could use at will and work.
- [35:28]
David Duchovny
That's it, in a way.
- [35:30]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah. I mean, I didn't, you know, and this is, this, this is the comedy of. Of all of this stuff. It sounds so silly, but it's true.
- [35:39]
David Duchovny
I like looking at it all as a comedy because it is. Yeah, go on.
- [35:45]
Yeah.
- [35:46]
Tom Pelfrey
I mean, there's no way to not laugh, but I remember, I remember a few years sober working on this thing, and this guy I was working with, and I'd spent a lot of time with him up until that point, and I'm really still in, you know, Neo in the Matrix mode. I just feel plugged in, you know, so much learning and growth, especially at the beginning because it been so stunted in so many ways. And we were going to dinner one night or something, I said, you know, man, I said, I think I'm intense. That was his response. He started laughing. He goes, are you kidding? I didn't even know him very well. He goes, are you kidding me? He's like, you're the most, like, intense guy I've ever met. I was like, I. I swear, I. I always thought I was laid back.
- [36:31]
David Duchovny
Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm the same. But I mean, I still, I still.
- [36:37]
Tom Pelfrey
You seem very lazy going, yeah.
- [36:43]
David Duchovny
Exactly, exactly.
- [36:45]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah, but it was so, in so many ways, I was kind of a surprise to myself. And then eventually, and still now talk to a Jungian analyst who just changed the game for me. And, and can you.
- [37:01]
David Duchovny
Can you give me a little bit about what that's about? Can you explain what analysis is? Because I've not had that myself.
- [37:08]
Tom Pelfrey
Well, it's. I don't know that I would do a fair job of. Of summing up exactly what it means.
- [37:14]
David Duchovny
Just what it means to you.
- [37:15]
Anyway.
- [37:17]
Tom Pelfrey
It'S. He's taking much like what. What Gabor Mate seems to be doing is. Is taking. Taking things that might seem like a problem and asking the question, is this entire thing a problem or is there something vital here that you've misunderstood or misdirect?
- [37:40]
David Duchovny
Know.
- [37:40]
Tom Pelfrey
When Bill W. Is creating the 12 steps, he's in letter correspondence with Jung. There's a book of their letters.
- [37:50]
David Duchovny
Oh, really?
- [37:51]
I didn't know that.
- [37:52]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah, it's amazing. It's beautiful. But, you know, to. To just pull a sort of idea from what Jung was saying to Bill W. He said the only cure for spirits is spirit.
- [38:06]
David Duchovny
Right?
- [38:07]
Tom Pelfrey
I mean, this is the foundation of the whole thing. Right? And so that was to to look at things that way, and in particular, that thing changes the entire landscape. Now you go, well, maybe that desire that you have, maybe that compulsion, maybe that impulse that you have towards. Is towards something greater, and maybe that's vital to who you are as a human being. That is the source of your beauty and creativity. That is what makes you you. If we didn't have that part of you, we would all be worse off for it. And so how do we let go of the parts of it that are bad without crushing the part of it that might be the most important thing about us?
- [38:56]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [38:56]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah. Delicate surgery, you know, and then. And then feeling good all of a sudden was. Was all the sort of motivation I needed to just go seek out more understanding of what had happened and why I felt good now. And it was a ton of books. It was going to every Buddhist monastery in Manhattan to try and learn how to meditate. Yeah, it was hard. I didn't, like, finally went to the TM place. I was like, oh, I like this one. And that helps me feel good.
- [39:28]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [39:29]
Tom Pelfrey
So all things like that. It was building arsenal.
- [39:32]
David Duchovny
And.
- [39:34]
Tom Pelfrey
When I. When I finally come to. I worked with someone awesome dude. Invited me to this zoom meeting of AA during the pandemic. Fast forwarding. And when I spent time with some of those guys, understanding in a better and more holistic way what the 12 steps were, when I look back at my journey, it wasn't perfect, it wasn't thorough, but what blew my mind was I did the steps spontaneously.
- [40:08]
David Duchovny
Really?
- [40:09]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah. Which to me was such an amazing discovery and such a credit to what they are, because I was like, the wounded soul in want of healing will spontaneously do these things in some order, perhaps not thoroughly, perhaps not perfectly, but, like, it was a natural. Like, this is what I want to do next.
- [40:35]
David Duchovny
Really?
- [40:35]
Tom Pelfrey
Totally.
- [40:37]
David Duchovny
That's amazing. I don't think I've ever. I've ever heard that. I mean, I've heard of, like, people that stop drinking on their own, but I haven't heard about people who kind of did the shadow steps on our. Or, you know, kind of rediscovered it.
- [40:50]
Tom Pelfrey
Well, you know, there was some guys saying, like, have you. You've been out there by yourself. You. You must be so dry. Dr. Just means, like, angry or whatever. I was like, no. I mean, yeah, at times for sure, but no. And. And then it made me think, well, like, well, the steps relieve that. I was like, okay, thinking about it and looking back, I was like, I kind of did them. Some of them.
- [41:11]
David Duchovny
Right, right.
- [41:12]
Tom Pelfrey
You know, not four and five the way I needed to. That came later. That came later.
- [41:20]
David Duchovny
Yeah. Yeah.
- [41:21]
And when you got into those meetings, I mean, I found I was so entertained when I got into the meetings too. Deeply entertained. Not in the sense of just being entertained, but just like, oh, my God, you know, they do say, like, if you put your problems in the middle and everybody puts their problems in the middle at the end, you'll probably. You'll gladly take yours back, you know? So there was some of that, like, holy shit, 100%. But there was also just like. But I think what people miss sometimes is, again, how funny it is if you have that humility to laugh at your own mistakes and darkness and whatever. I mean, obviously, a lot of it is not funny, and a lot of it is painful, but the perspective that you get is one of humor. And I think your laugh is just so free and spontaneous that I get that from you.
- [42:14]
Wow.
- [42:15]
Tom Pelfrey
Thank you. Yeah, yeah. The. Those rooms also, you were saying something before about, like, that's not going to work for me because I need a tailor made to me. And, yeah, I totally.
- [42:27]
David Duchovny
I'm special 100, right?
- [42:29]
Tom Pelfrey
And then going in there and, like, hearing other people talk. No way. Like, you're thinking that too. You know, like, that was such a relief of, like, okay, okay.
- [42:51]
Hasan Minhaj
I'm Hasan Minhaj, and I have been lying to you. I only pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are way too afraid to ask. People like Senator Elizabeth Warren, is America too dumb for democracy?
- [43:10]
Gretchen Rubin
Outrageous.
- [43:10]
Hasan Minhaj
Parenting expert Dr. Becky, how do you skip consequences without raising a psychopath?
- [43:16]
David Duchovny
It's a good question.
- [43:17]
Hasan Minhaj
Listen to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know. From Lemonada Media. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [43:40]
David Duchovny
Let'S talk about meditation for a minute. Because what you. What you just said, it reminds me of something that Jay Clark taught me. And I can't remember where he got it, but. And I always, I'll it up because it's new to me, but it's something like the extent to which I can be with that which I cannot be is the extent of my joy, freedom of expression, and creativity. So I say that only to set up my own experience of meditation, which is also a quote about meditation is. It's one insult after another. That's what meditation is.
- [44:20]
Tom Pelfrey
Who's that quote?
- [44:21]
David Duchovny
I don't know, but it's true. So when I started meditating, it's like, oh, that's what's. I'm thinking about all the time, whatever you call it, the monkey mind, whatever you want to call it. And I had this perception. I don't want to say anything positive about drug use, but I OD'd myself on marijuana gummies by mistake about two and a half years ago. And I had a psychotic kind of. I bought the wrong ones. I wanted to go to sleep. Instead, I got some crazy, crazy strength thing. And my experience, what happened was I started to hear all this. This really dark, negative self talk. And my. My perception was like this screen had. Had come down in my mind and I was listening to the voice in my head unfiltered. Usually I can filter it, but now I had it and it was killing me. It was. It was. It was dark. And luckily my wife was on the phone and we Talked for like 12 hours.
- [45:24]
Wow. I don't know.
- [45:25]
I was fucked up.
- [45:26]
Wow.
- [45:27]
But I guess I'm thankful for the. For the realization that this is a constant voice in my head. It's just the screen came down for a moment because of the drugs, and now I'm like, okay, well, that's what I'm dealing with all the time. And that's kind of a glimpse of what you get when you meditate. Because when you quiet yourself, all of a sudden the background noise comes in. And the background noise is often the dark parts, the. The instinctual parts, the. The younger parts. And I wonder if that was. If that's kind of what you're dealing with when you're talking about meditation, if that's what it gives you.
- [46:03]
Tom Pelfrey
Have you read Power of Now? Eckhart Tolle?
- [46:06]
David Duchovny
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [46:07]
Tom Pelfrey
I mean, that. That's literally the book that got me sober. That book changed my life.
- [46:12]
David Duchovny
So is meditation predated, obviously, the 12 steps for you? So, like, when you. When you were kind of redis. Discovering the 12 steps on your own, meditation was a key component of that.
- [46:22]
Yeah.
- [46:23]
Tom Pelfrey
And not even realizing that it's a key component of the 12 steps, you know, like, basically, like, can I get centered enough to take myself enough out of the way to let God in the universe? Like, let. Let me be grounded in what I am. A part of something larger versus all me, me, me. You know, that's the thing. When you really think about the voices that you were saying, like being stuck with, that is a punishment, you know, from the outside we think, oh, that person's self centered, you know?
- [47:02]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [47:02]
Which.
- [47:03]
Tom Pelfrey
Which isn't good. But, you know, if you're drowning, who are you thinking about?
- [47:11]
David Duchovny
You're thrashing right?
- [47:12]
Tom Pelfrey
You know, you're just trying to get a breath.
- [47:13]
David Duchovny
Like I was like my old pal Garry Shandling had this great joke where he said I broke with my girlfriend. She was too self centered. It was all me, me, me, put me out, I'm on fire.
- [47:29]
Tom Pelfrey
But there's an element of like, I think there's something in there where like maybe, maybe if you can't stop focusing on all that stuff, there's some way in which you're in pain. Like there's, it's, it's hard to get out of yourself. And this is where I've, I told you I'm a fan of the show and I've heard you talk about right action versus right thing. Like sometimes just go do something and your brain will kind of change. 100. But for me it was like the meditation was a way to practice the thing that blew my mind about the power of now. Which was. And again, probably sounds obvious but, but just being able to bring awareness to your attention. Just like my attention is at my disposal, but it doesn't. That, that's not the way I've been living.
- [48:29]
David Duchovny
Right.
- [48:30]
Tom Pelfrey
And I'm not saying I've not even gotten close to mastering that. But like I do choose. And then the, the, the Eckhart Tolle of it all. Like the gentle, gentle, gentle, Just notice, just notice. Just notice. It's like what you were saying. I can't even imagine that. 12 hours, bro. Like, that just sounds like it was dark. That sounds like really dark. But, but we do that all to ourselves every day. Like you said, you just got the unfiltered version of it. So like, is there, is there a way sometimes where you can just notice like, oh, my attention is on that voice. That to me is the mechanism of meditation that is useful is just like a slightly better awareness of, and this is just for me, but a slightly better awareness of can I catch my attention before I'm, can I get it five minutes down the road instead of having to wait two hours down the road? You know, like, can I be in this place for an hour? Because it's gonna happen, right? Versus three days.
- [49:38]
David Duchovny
What I was thinking when you were saying, talking about meditation like that, I was thinking back to what we were saying about, you know, what's right with drugs. That's the clip. What's right with drugs. But you know, when you deal with those voices as you do, as I do, as we all do, there was a time when that was helpful, right? You gotta go. It's not just like, hey, Fuck you voice. Go fuck yourself. It's like, we've got to make peace. I think I have to make peace with those negative voices because they provided a purpose. At some point, they protected me. At some point. Oh, yeah, they probably protected me from disappointment. I don't go for the new age, like, everything's gonna be okay, you know, and that's all in the past. I go, how do we make the past go? How do we bring it into our present in a way that's healthiest for me? And that's one of the things I see in your work. I see it in Task, and I saw it, like, in A Man in.
- [50:43]
Full.
- [50:45]
You'Re able to. You're really comfortable with showing the unsavory quality. Like, you don't apologize for it. And there was. Especially in A Man in Full, you were completely embracing kind of a sliminess or just ambition and jealousy. Like, the guy was really fucked up. Yeah, but he doesn't look that fucked up, and he's got a decent job and he's. Whatever he was doing. But you were so egoless. I thought, as a performer, I really thought that was a great performance. I don't know. They didn't list it, you know, like, in this. I don't know if you've talked about it much, but.
- [51:40]
Tom Pelfrey
Oh, thank you.
- [51:40]
David Duchovny
But I think, yeah, really tricky character to pull off.
- [51:45]
Yeah.
- [51:46]
Tom Pelfrey
Yeah, no, that was. Thank you. Yeah, I haven't talked too much about that one. Yeah, that was tricky and really fun also, partially just because the tone of the whole thing was so, like, elusive. You know, there was days where we're doing a scene and I felt like I was in a 80s Rodney Dangerfield slapstick comedy, you know, and it was so fun to play in that world because I did. Usually they keep me far away from anything comedic, you know, I think it's a mistake.
- [52:18]
David Duchovny
I think it's a mistake. Oh, thanks, brother. I think it's in your future. But anyway, so let's go. Before we end, I want you to. I want to get you off the mountain, you know, because you're off the mountain.
- [52:26]
Yeah.
- [52:26]
You're here.
- [52:27]
Yeah.
- [52:28]
Tom Pelfrey
Get you off the mountain.
- [52:29]
David Duchovny
Well, how'd you get off the mountain? So. So you. You get sober. You. You live on the mountain. You're. You're working steadily, but you don't live on the mountain anymore, and you have more than a dog now. So.
- [52:40]
Yeah.
- [52:40]
What happened?
- [52:42]
Tom Pelfrey
My lovely manager providing a full service representation. You know, she has been Kaylee's manager, my. My. My partner, my fiance since Kaylee was a kid.
- [52:59]
David Duchovny
Oh, really?
- [52:59]
Tom Pelfrey
16.
- [53:00]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [53:01]
Tom Pelfrey
And so she had been cooking it up to, to have us introduced and we were. And it was instantaneous. And, you know, fell in love and, and jumped off the cliff together.
- [53:19]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [53:20]
Tom Pelfrey
You know, which is a really beautiful experience. We were holding our daughter before we celebrated our one year anniversary. I mean, and I always say, like, Matilda's gonna know she's a love child. She was absolutely born in total. And obviously we're still in love and it just deepens and changes.
- [53:43]
David Duchovny
But how old is Matilda now?
- [53:46]
Tom Pelfrey
Two years and four months. And she's heaven.
- [53:49]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [53:49]
Tom Pelfrey
I mean, it's, it's incredible. You know, like, you talk about a journey in.
- [53:56]
David Duchovny
Wow.
- [53:57]
Tom Pelfrey
I mean, this is really the heart of your. Your show is when I look back, I get emotional.
- [54:03]
David Duchovny
That's okay.
- [54:09]
Tom Pelfrey
I wouldn't change a day, truly. Like, thank God I failed when I did. Thank God I struggled when I did. Because if one day had been different, I might not have been single and met Kaylee. And if I hadn't, I wouldn't have my daughter. And truly, I wouldn't trade them for the universe. So you look back and you have to say thank you to all of it.
- [54:49]
David Duchovny
I have nothing else to say. Thank you.
- [54:53]
Tom Pelfrey
Thank you so much.
- [55:09]
David Duchovny
Some post. Tom Pelfrey thoughts. I was so happily surprised by that conversation that Tom enabled us to have. He approached the whole conversation with such humility and, and gratitude. And it aroused the humility and gratitude in me.
- [55:36]
Isn't that interesting?
- [55:39]
Tom also gave me a gift. I'd never met him.
- [55:42]
And he handed me a book, book of Rumi poems. And I just felt touched.
- [55:51]
The acts of generosity, acts of gratitude.
- [55:56]
Acts of vulnerable openness, they slay me.
- [56:02]
You know, meet somebody and 10 minutes later we're talking about.
- [56:07]
The most intimate things. What an odd life. What an odd job.
- [56:13]
What a lucky guy. Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the full version of my post interview thoughts that you won't hear anywhere else. That's more of my recaps on interviews with guests like Chris Carter and Emily Deschanel. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Apple Podcasts or head to lemonade premium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonade premium.com. don't miss out. Fail Better is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinski and Bradley Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.
- [57:45]
Gretchen Rubin
Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media. Our health care system is broken in so many ways.
- [58:21]
Dan Buettner
We have a health care system that's supposed to be taking care of people that is making it literally more difficult for people to put food on the table.
- [58:29]
Gretchen Rubin
So this season we'll dive into the challenges head first while also thinking about how we can find a better way because we all deserve better. Uncared for. Season 3 from Lemonada Media available August 6th. Wherever you get your podcasts.