What Madonna Taught Rosie O’Donnell About Fame

Summary

Fail Better with David Duchovny: What Madonna Taught Rosie O’Donnell About Fame
Hosted by Lemonada Media
Release Date: October 1, 2024

In this compelling episode of Fail Better with David Duchovny, host David Duchovny engages in an intimate and insightful conversation with celebrated comedian, actress, and philanthropist Rosie O’Donnell. Titled “What Madonna Taught Rosie O’Donnell About Fame,” the episode delves deep into the multifaceted nature of fame, personal struggles, and the profound lessons learned from failures. Through candid discussions, Rosie shares her journey navigating the highs and lows of celebrity life, the impact of personal loss, and the importance of authenticity.

1. Introduction: Unveiling the Layers of Fame

David Duchovny begins by highlighting his admiration for Rosie O’Donnell, emphasizing the depth of her work beyond public perception. He remarks, “I thought I knew Rosie, but reading her books and understanding her activism blew me away” ([01:42]). Duchovny sets the tone for the episode by framing it around the concept that failure, rather than success, shapes our identities.

2. Rosie's Early Career: From Standup to Stardom

Rosie O’Donnell recounts her unexpected foray into standup comedy during her teenage years. “[05:01] I wanted to do Bette Midler's backup singer or be on Broadway, but I fell into standup comedy,” Rosie shares, reflecting on how her initial aspirations inadvertently led her to a career in comedy. Duchovny probes into her early challenges, asking about her first performances. Rosie vividly describes her initial success and subsequent failure: “[17:00] The first night was great with my friends, but the next night, doing all strangers, I bombed horribly.” This experience taught her resilience and the importance of developing original material.

3. Navigating Fame: Lessons from Madonna and Beyond

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Rosie's experiences with fame, particularly her time co-starring with Madonna. “[26:00] Being close to Madonna was a life-altering experience,” Rosie explains. She observes, “Madonna taught me how fame can strip away humanity” ([26:02]). The pressures of maintaining a public persona while staying true to oneself become a focal point. Duchovny reflects, “It’s never fake with you,” to which Rosie agrees, affirming her genuine approach to celebrity interactions.

Rosie also delves into the creation and eventual departure from The Rosie O'Donnell Show. “[30:59] I signed a four-year contract knowing I’d leave when my child started kindergarten,” she reveals. Her decision to walk away from the talk show marked a pivotal moment, emphasizing her commitment to family over sustained fame.

4. Personal Loss and Its Impact

Rosie opens up about the tragic loss of her mother to breast cancer when Rosie was young. “[08:36] My mother died when I was young, and it left a shadow in my soul,” she shares with palpable emotion. This loss profoundly influenced her life choices, including her advocacy for adoption and LGBTQ rights. Duchovny connects this personal grief to the overarching theme of failure: “[10:14] Processing the loss as a failure was a way to cope,” he observes. Rosie elaborates on how this shaped her resilience and desire to create a fulfilling life despite setbacks.

5. Parenting and Building a Family

A heartfelt segment of the episode explores Rosie's journey as a parent and the complexities of balancing fame with family life. “[07:43] Celebrity got in the way of parenting,” Rosie admits, highlighting the challenges her children faced growing up with a famous mother. She discusses the invisibility her children experienced, such as when friends’ children were acknowledged while hers were overlooked: “[07:48] When you’re famous, your kids are invisible.”

Rosie also touches on her experience adopting a child later in life: “[37:43] I adopted a baby at 50 to fill a hole that never was any different.” This decision was both a personal fulfillment and a way to provide stability for her family. Duchovny and Rosie discuss the pressures of being a gay parent, with Rosie stating, “[43:08] Marrying publicly was an act of social disobedience as well as love.”

6. Coping with Health Crises

Rosie candidly shares her ordeal with a massive heart attack: “[37:49] I had a massive heart attack after helping a woman escape a car crash.” This life-threatening experience reinforced her appreciation for human connections and the importance of being present. Duchovny reflects on how such experiences shape one’s perspective on fame and failure, noting, “[57:05] Changing rooms diluted my creative instincts.”

7. Interactions with Fans: Maintaining Authenticity

The episode delves into the intricate relationship Rosie has with her fans. “[27:53] People think they know me, but I don’t feel like a star,” she confesses. She describes attending Comic-Con and the overwhelming love she received, which initially left her feeling depleted: “[55:05] After eight hours of signing, I felt too bad to do another one.” However, Rosie experiences an epiphany about the significance of her influence: “[55:17] I realized I do mean something to people’s lives and had to respect their perspectives.”

Rosie emphasizes the importance of authenticity in these interactions: “[55:27] Just show up and be there.” Duchovny echoes this sentiment, acknowledging the transformative power of fan connections: “[53:46] It’s a revelation, like you said. It can be you coming to terms with who you were as well.”

8. Embracing Failure: A Path to Growth

True to the podcast’s theme, Rosie and Duchovny discuss how embracing failure has been instrumental in their personal and professional growth. Rosie reflects on her struggles with public perception and her commitment to staying true to herself despite the pressures: “[28:17] I never felt like a star, and I still, to this day, don't.”

Duchovny ties this back to the notion that failure is a fundamental aspect of the human experience: “[35:50] It’s something that can make us all human.” Rosie concurs, sharing how her failures have taught her resilience and the importance of genuine connections: “[46:27] The bumps are the best thing that can happen to them.”

9. Conclusion: Lessons Learned and Moving Forward

As the conversation draws to a close, both Rosie and Duchovny reflect on the lessons learned from their respective journeys. Rosie shares her ongoing commitment to authenticity and her passion for sharing her experiences to help others: “[49:27] You never realize the effect you have on people until you allow them to tell you.” Duchovny contemplates the iterative nature of growth and the continuous pursuit of learning through failure: “[59:44] After 20, there's more. Fail Better is about embracing that journey.”

The episode concludes with a mutual appreciation for the journey of failure and success, underscoring the idea that embracing imperfections leads to personal growth and deeper human connections. Rosie’s final thoughts encapsulate the essence of the episode: “[55:46] It was overwhelming for me. I had to learn to just receive and respect the love people have for me.”

Notable Quotes

• Rosie O’Donnell ([05:01]): “I wanted to do Bette Midler's backup singer or be on Broadway, but I fell into standup comedy.”

• Rosie O’Donnell ([17:00]): “The first night was great with my friends, but the next night, doing all strangers, I bombed horribly.”

• Rosie O’Donnell ([26:00]): “Being close to Madonna was a life-altering experience.”

• David Duchovny ([35:50]): “It’s something that can make us all human.”

• Rosie O’Donnell ([55:46]): “It was overwhelming for me. I had to learn to just receive and respect the love people have for me.”

Insights and Takeaways

This episode serves as a profound exploration of how failure and personal struggles are integral to shaping one’s identity and resilience. Rosie O’Donnell’s heartfelt narratives shed light on the often unseen challenges of fame, the enduring impact of personal loss, and the transformative power of authentic connections. David Duchovny effectively ties these individual stories to the broader theme of embracing failure as a catalyst for growth.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own experiences with failure and success, recognizing that setbacks do not define them but rather offer opportunities for profound personal development. The conversation underscores the importance of staying true to oneself amidst external pressures and the value of genuine human connections in navigating life’s challenges.

Conclusion

Fail Better with David Duchovny: What Madonna Taught Rosie O’Donnell About Fame is a deeply moving and enlightening episode that captures the essence of human vulnerability and resilience. Through Rosie's candid storytelling and Duchovny’s thoughtful inquiries, the episode offers valuable lessons on embracing failure, maintaining authenticity, and the enduring quest for personal fulfillment amidst the complexities of fame.

Transcript

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Hi, I'm Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls who Code. Look, I'd consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. I've written books, founded two successful nonprofits, and I'm raising two incredible kids. But here's the thing. I still wake up wondering, is this it? And if the best years are yet to come, when's that going to start? Join me on my so Called Midlife, my new podcast with Lemonada Media, where we're building a playbook for navigating midlife one episode at a time. Each week, I'll chat with extraordinary guests who've transformed their midlife crisis into opportunities for growth and newfound purpose. At some point, we all ask ourselves, is there more to life? I'm here to discover how to thrive in my second act, right alongside you. My so Called Midlife is out now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ellie Kemper from the Office and Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. And this is my fantastically funny friend, Scott Eckert. Hi, everyone. We host a podcast called Born to Love. It's a show where we talk to the people we love about the things they love. Each week, we bring on a celebrity guest to discuss their secret passion. Did you know that my friend Jenna Fisher loves Keanu Reeves movies? She does, she does. And how about Al Roker, Samantha Bee, Tony Hawk, Jane Lynch? What do they love, Ellie? You have to listen to the show to find out. So check out Born to Love wherever you get your podcast from Lemonada Media. Lemonada.

[David Duchovny]

What I realized when I was researching Rosie O'Donnell, our guest this week, you know, you think you know somebody because they're in the public eye. You think you know their work. I do. I think I knew Rosie, but then I read her books, Celebrity Detox. Really well written, really, really well thought out. Really interesting book about fame and about leaving fame behind, which I wouldn't have expected. Also to learn of her activism. I've been regularly blown away by the depth and the breadth of the lives of the people that I thought I knew, that I was interviewing. I thought I knew what they were work was. I thought I knew where most of their work was. I thought I knew where their heart lies lay. Lies. And Rosie's maybe the most glaring exception for that, in that I had no idea all the work that she's done. Not just as an actor. I'd forgot. I'd forgotten that. But the impact of her talk show. The walking away from a contract after just six years, because talk shows can go on forever. And the amount of money. She walked away from the books that she's written, the children she's adopted, such a full life. I'm David Duchovny, and this is fail Better, A show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Rosie O'Donnell row to her friends as a comedian, actress, author, and former daytime TV host. She began her career doing standup comedy, then appeared in movies we know and like A League of Their Own and Sleepless in Seattle and the Flintstones movie. She had her own talk show, the Rosie O'Donnell show, for six seasons. And she also made quite an impression as a co host of the View early on. Rosie is known to be a generous philanthropist and a big advocate for adoption rights, especially for the LGBTQ community. Rosie and I got to meet and talk in person, which I was very happy about. Not just to begin with, but also just the way the conversation goes. Face to face, eye to eye, A real life conversation in a real life studio. Just for you, dear listeners, here's that conversation with Ro. So I have a quote here from a wise woman who says, I'm a comedienne. My talent is linked to laughter. My core desire is to connect with people in the raw realness of their lives. My work is about story, revelation, and comfort.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Was that me?

[David Duchovny]

That's you.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Wow. God, sometimes I amaze myself.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

If I would have went, wow, that's a beautiful quote. Who said that?

[David Duchovny]

Isn't it?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah. Well, people are always asking you, as a comic, what is it that you're trying to do? You know, I never looked at standup as an art form. I wanted to go into.

[David Duchovny]

I understand.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I wanted to do Bette Midler's backup singer. I wanted to be in Broadway. I wanted to sing and dance like Barbara and Bette. And that was my goal. So I sort of fell into the standup comedy. And my mom used to listen to Todie Fields.

[David Duchovny]

I remember Todie Fields.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Wasn't she something else?

[David Duchovny]

Well, what I wanted to do, because I have you here in the flesh.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Because it's the best thing I can do on radio, which is I call podcast radio.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Me too.

[David Duchovny]

Because I'm that old.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Same with me.

[David Duchovny]

I want to just look at each other without speaking for a minute.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Okay, good.

[David Duchovny]

So we're going to subject the listeners to a minute of silence, knowing that we are just looking at one another.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Deal.

[David Duchovny]

Now, if I only had the balls to do that for 45 minutes, we would have a hit.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

We sure would. It would be groundbreaking. In podcasts at least. Now, what were you thinking during That I was thinking of when I first saw you, when I first met you, when I met you with Taya and when we did League and all that stuff. And then I remember this funny thing when she was on millionaire, like, 20 years ago. Yes. And she called you and said, honey, remember we were in that city and you were like, you're out of luck, babe.

[David Duchovny]

She said I was out of luck.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

So I remembered that I called her as a lifeline.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes. Yes.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. I think she said, you're right.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

That's right.

[David Duchovny]

Which was not. Still not a word you can use on network television.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

No. But we all laughed at home.

[David Duchovny]

It was great.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

It was really funny.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. I was. I was just thinking of. You know, I've been watching and reading about you for the last few days, you know, getting ready to come in here, and I was just. I was just trying to feel the person, you know, because I've been watching your work. I've been reading your books. Celebrity Detox, I think, is a fantastic book.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Thank you very much.

[David Duchovny]

I don't know if you got a chance to talk about that much.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I didn't really, because it was right after 9, 11 that it came out, or maybe that was the first book, but I didn't really get to do it.

[David Duchovny]

I think it was 2006.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

2006, yeah. That was the one. I talked about Barbara and leaving the show and how odd it felt to kind of have to detox from celebrity, which took me years, David. It didn't take me, you know, a couple months. It took me years to go from that kind of mass adulation back to a normal human existence.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Do you want to speak some about that? Because what I was struck by in your book, in that book, Celebrity Detox, was that it wasn't just a detox from fame. It was also a conscious choice to spend the time that you'd be working as a parent to spend. So it wasn't. It's not just. It's about parenting as well as celebrity as much as it is about Celebrity Detox, which I found fascinating.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, I think that the celebrity got in the way of the parenting. So I had.

[David Duchovny]

How so?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, you know, when you're a little kid and you go to the mall with your mother and you're three or four, and you're adorable and blonde people stop and go, oh, my God, that's the cutest kid in the world. When your parent is famous, you're ignored. You are kind of invisible. And sometimes when they were little, they'd say, me too. Me, too. When the people wanted a picture or, you know, my name Parker. My name, Parker, you know, it was heartbreaking. It is. It was heartbreaking. And now they tease me. We go somewhere and, like, nobody recognizes me, and they're like, mom, you went to the mall and nobody knew it was you. You know, but it did get in the way. And also, you know, I was very formed. My entire career trajectory was based on the fact that I needed to be done when I was 40, in case I died like my mother did.

[David Duchovny]

That was your thinking going in.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I left when I was 40 on my show. I'm 62 now.

[David Duchovny]

But you'd always thought you might leave when you were 40 or die. That's what you did.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, I thought I was gonna die because my mother did. And that's a common thought of motherless daughters. And Hope Edelman wrote a wonderful book about it. And anyone who's had mother loss and not delve into the emotional part, I recommend you get the book and the workbook. But I knew that my mother missed so much dying before her kids were, you know, grown. I mean, she had five children under the age of 12, and she died in three months from aggressive breast cancer in 1973. And, you know, that Nora Ephron always used to say to me, is that going to remain the defining fact of your life? Kind of angry, you know, And I was like, it is. It's the time when the world went from color to black and white. And then I got my son, and it came color again.

[David Duchovny]

You know, at the time, you're 10, you say, yeah. It's funny, when I was going through a divorce, I remember talking to a therapist, and he said, you know, there is no way to do this that can protect the kids completely, because the job of a child, because children don't have jobs, but the job of a child is to keep the family together.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

I wonder if that resonated at all to you. Was the job of the child, Rosie, to keep your mother alive? Was it to keep the family intact? And that. That was. And obviously, at 10, you don't have those thoughts. But I'm wondering in your time processing that loss as a failure, as something else than just the brute fact that it is.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

You know, it was really interesting because many mothers on our street got breast cancer. And my best friend's mother got it three years after my mother did. And there was talk at the time, and they've done studies that the water table on Long island, on the new suburban homes, they killed all of the Potato fields with ddt, which Agent Orange. And then the women who were post who were menstruating had a hormonal response to it and it triggered the breast cancer. That's one of the theories about why the breast cancer incidence is so high on Long Island. But my best friend Jackie, still my best friend, her mother got breast cancer and lived. So that was when I was in seventh grade. And I remember thinking, why didn't my mother live? And I asked her and Bernie said, there's no way I was dying before I saw my grandkids. And that devastated me.

[David Duchovny]

Sure.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Because I thought, why didn't my mother feel that way? Why didn't she want to live for us?

[David Duchovny]

So it's that magical thinking of a child that my mother would have lived if she really had wanted to in some way.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah. Or if I was better, if I had. Like, I would play all the sports when I was in school and I'd look around and try to see her. Sometimes I think I saw her in the audience, but then I would turn and look and she wouldn't be there, you know, so it was definitely the heartbreak of still.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I can feel it.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

And when my children arrived, that was the time I missed her the most. And just last week at my son's wedding, my son got married and he's the first one to do that in our family. And it was the most emotional thing. I wasn't prepared. But part of it was the longing for my mother to have seen my son reach this threshold and cross over into his adult life.

[David Duchovny]

Is that, do you think? I don't know how to put it. Is that for your mom or is that to show your mom that Rosie grew up and could make a family?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I did it, Mom. And wouldn't it be nice if you were here to see that? I never felt it really about my career. I never thought like, oh, I wish my mom was here to see this show. Or. No, no. But I always felt it about the little things, like, you know, when it's cookie day for the fundraiser at the school and all the mothers would come in and, you know, I was constantly sucking up to all my friends mothers. When my friends went through the normal push away in your teens of their parents. I would be on the mother's side all the time and be a real kiss ass to the moms. And, you know, in fact, there was.

[David Duchovny]

Like an Eddie Haskell kind of like a.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

And it was funny because one of my friends, Jeannie, her mom found her birth control at 16 in her pocketbook and they said it was mine, which is the joke still amongst the friends. And Jeannie's mother believed it. You know, I was like, well, that's wishful thinking, I guess.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Yeah. But if not the job, if not the fame for your mom, do you think? I mean, just in the classic sense that the fame was directed towards that whole. That absence.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Totally. Although before she died, you know, she's the one who got me into Barbra Streisand. She was obsessed.

[David Duchovny]

Which is why I was surprised when you said you weren't that involved in, like, her seeing your fame or her seeing you working with Barbara Walters or all these people that she would have admired in show business, these women.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, there was one time when Ted Kennedy and his mom came up to the show, like, in the second week at 30 Rock, they were down doing the Today show. And my assistant said, ted Kennedy and his mom are on the way up to see you. And I thought at that moment, I got choked up and started to cry because I thought if my mother knew that the Kennedys, which in our family.

[David Duchovny]

It'S an Irish thing.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Come on. Right. The Kennedys were in my office to talk to me, that would have, I think, blown her little brain apart.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. But I want to just go back for a moment to the first standup, when you first went and did it.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

And then the second time.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

And then maybe the third time. But it was a fascinating process to me. If you could just tell people out there what it was, because your innocence is amazing to me.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah. I was 16, though. Remember that?

[David Duchovny]

I didn't know you were 16.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah, I was in my high school play, and I was a sophomore, and I got to write the skit that made fun of the teachers, the Senior Follies. So, you know, I would steal from SNL like, a very flat teacher, skinny. I'd say, Ms. Barron, more on that story as it develops. Like, I totally took everything from snl, and this guy was in the audience, Richie Minervini. He's about 15 years older than the kid in my grade who was in the play. And he said, I own a comedy club. I think you'd be a great standup comic. And I said, no way. I'm going to be on Broadway. And he said, well, come to the club and see what you can do. So I went on the show, and that day I watched Merv Griffin and I saw Jerry Seinfeld, and he wasn't famous at that time. It was. You know, a lot of comics from New York would get on the train to Philly to do Merv Griffin whenever he had a space. And Jerry was one of those guys. And so I watched it, and when I got to the club, because I had no material, really, I would do his act. But not only his act. I took his cadence and his delivery.

[David Duchovny]

Jerry.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Jerry. So I would almost talk like that. I'm thinking, hey, I've heard that in.

[David Duchovny]

You that slips in sometimes.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes, it does. It's what I consider the standard comedian voice, which I thought in order to be a comic, you gotta talk like that.

[David Duchovny]

Right, right.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

You know, and it took me a long time to try to make my standup, which is mostly storytelling and conversation, much more conversational than it was presentational. You know, when somebody presents you with a gift, it's wrapped and it's. Everything's perfect, and they hand it to you and it's all done. But when you're just having a conversation, it's not finished yet.

[David Duchovny]

Well, you've said. And what I really appreciate you saying is, you know, you're. I think you're at heart, an improv person.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right?

[David Duchovny]

And it seemed to me that you were that person at heart from the beginning, you know, even at that young age, to go in. And what I was struck by, in this thing that I read was that you did the first night you did.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Was all my friends.

[David Duchovny]

All your friends were in the audience. So you just do the high school material, which means.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

And I killed.

[David Duchovny]

Right? You killed. Because they'll know all the inside jokes.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

And it was like, you know, 40 kids from high school. And then they're very loud, right? Their parents. And so I'd say, marilyn's dating Michael.

[David Duchovny]

And so.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

And so does it now. And they'd be like, oh, my God.

[David Duchovny]

Right?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

So he goes, come back the next night. And the next night is when I did All Strangers. All Strangers. And I bombed. A horrible death, of course. So the first night, it was like, this is the easiest thing I've ever done. And the second night is, I will never be able to do this, and I don't want to do it again.

[David Duchovny]

Are you saying that Seinfeld material bombed, or was it just.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

No. When I walked off stage all the. Now, mind you, I'm 16. These men are in their 30s. They surround me in the back little green room and say, rosie, where'd you get that joke? I said, jerry Seinfeld. He was on Murphy.

[David Duchovny]

You have no guilt about it.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I have no idea that you. And they say, you have to write your own jokes. I'm like, barbra Streisand does not write her own songs. She sings other people's songs. I'm not a writer. I'm a comedian. And they said, no, you gotta do your own. So Richie was very nice, the owner of that club. He said to me, why don't you come down and be the emcee, and you can learn how to incorporate your own life into your material. And I did that for a couple years. And then Ed McMahon's daughter happened to be in the club in 1984.

[David Duchovny]

Star Search.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I was 22. And she said, you know, my dad's Ed McMahon, and I'm gonna put you on Star Search. And it had been on for one year, and I was obsessed with it, you know, with Sam Harris and I. Or Somewhere over the Rainbow. Right. And so I was on year two of that, as a result of Richie giving me that MC spot and this woman, Claudia McMahon, getting me on the Star Search.

[David Duchovny]

Do you remember the process of trying to write your own material? Or what was your. What would you say your angle was at that point? And were you still thinking of, oh, I'm gonna write these jokes that are gonna line up, or I'm gonna go out there and kind of have a funny attitude and see where it leads me?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, I had stories more than anything. You know, like, there was a story. Cause I was sort of them oldest female in the family. And then I had a little brother that, you know, was like five when my mother died. And so he used to take my maxi pads that floated in the bathtub and put his army men on them and then throw the tampons in like they were bombs and make a whole scene in the bathtub. So that was the first joke that I quote, unquote, wrote that whole bit about that. And then I learned how to make a bit. I never was good at writing jokes. Jokes like when I worked with Garry Marshall, and he would always say, go over there, do a chuffer chuffer, and come back. Chuffer, chuffer. To Gary meant make shit up.

[David Duchovny]

Right, Right.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

So that anytime you worked with him or with Penny, you know, they were two peas in a pod. They would say, you know, you got anything for this?

[David Duchovny]

I like that. Your Penny and your Gary, they're distinct.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

They're different. They're a little different.

[David Duchovny]

And I've spoken to them both, and they're spot on.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

They are.

[David Duchovny]

So I appreciate that very much.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Thank you. Very few people noticed that, but what's.

[David Duchovny]

Going through your head at this point? So you've done standup. You were on Star search. You've done a couple movies.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I became a VJ first on VH1.

[David Duchovny]

I remember. I remember VH1. I don't remember you. Vjing.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah, I had to do six hours a day just introducing videos, four segments an hour, two segments each. So you had to make it up. You had to go. Hi, Rosie O'Donnell on today. VH Wanagogo is on tonight at 8 to 12, so don't forget to miss that. And coming up next, Whitney Houston. Another debut season with another. And that really helped my career because that's how Penny saw me to ask me to come audition for League of their own from VH1. And then Gary saw me in League of Their Own and was like, let's work with her and my whole career. They both helped me so much.

[David Duchovny]

Today's podcast is sponsored by Strawberry Me. We talk a lot about the value of failure on this show, but working past setbacks can be a difficult process and one where you might want a little help. When most people think of coaching, they probably think it's just for CEOs or high powered executives. And the coaches are guys with muscles bulging out of their blazers delivering cliches about achievement. At Strawberry Me, we believe everyone deserves access to personal coaching with coaches who are trained to help you navigate life's challenges. They can help you set and achieve your goals, whether that's improving your relationships, boosting confidence, or choosing the next move in your career. Whatever you need to help unlock your full potential. A StrawBerry membership offers one on one video sessions with your coach and secure messaging in between to keep you on track. This is real coaching with real people and real results. Accessible to everyone who wants to find out how far they can go. Visit Strawberry Me Failbetter and take a short quiz to get matched with the perfect coach. Plus get 20% off your first month membership. That's Strawberry Me Failbetter.

[Emily Deschanel]

Struggling to make healthier choices or stick with your goals. You're not alone. We all know it's tough to create lasting changes in our lives, especially when it comes to eating and exercise habits. That's where NOOM comes in. NOOM isn't about quick fixes or strict diets. It's a flexible psychology based program that helps you build healthy habits that fit into your life. With noom, you'll learn how your mind works and why you make the choices you do. You'll have personalized lessons, a support system and tools that track your progress, all designed to guide you on your journey. NOOM uses psychology. That's why they say Losing weight starts with your brain, but it also takes into account your unique biological factors which also affect weight loss success. What makes Noom stand out is that it's not just about the number on the scale. NOOM helps you change your mindset so these healthier habits stick long term. Ready to feel more in control of your health? Take the first step today. Stay focused on what's important to you with Noom's psychology and biology based approach. Sign up for your trial [e-mail] that's n o o m dot com.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Hi, I'm Emily Deschanel. And I'm Carla Gallo. And we're excited to tell you about Boneheads, our new Bones Rewatch podcast. I played Dr. Temperance Brennan. And I played Daisy Wick. And we are gonna watch from the very beginning. We're gonna watch the episodes, we're gonna reminisce, we're gonna laugh, we're gonna cry. We're going to tell behind the scenes stories. We're going to go on tangents, a lot of tangents. So whether you're a seasoned Bones fanatic or a newcomer looking to dip your toes into the wild world of forensic anthropology, this show is for you. Boneheads from Lemonada Media is out now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Duchovny]

Even when you were doing, you know, big movies, you still have that fan sense to you. And I think that that joined you with the fans out there.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I agree. They think that she's one of us. She's just like us. That's how we would react if Streisand came on the show. Or that's how I would react if I got to be all of a sudden in a movie like that.

[David Duchovny]

And it was never. My sense was it was never faked.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

No, no, no.

[David Duchovny]

It was really who you were.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes. And I couldn't believe it. Not only the ones that, you know, like Streisand or David Bowie, but Carol Brady, you know.

[David Duchovny]

Sure.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Florence Henderson sat next to me and I couldn't catch my breath. Like, I'm like, this is the woman I wanted to marry my father and to make our whole life better again. This was the woman I wanted to be the mom, you know, and she.

[David Duchovny]

I wanted her for mom, too.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah. And she's sitting right there.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. I met her on an airplane.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Very, very friendly, wasn't she?

[David Duchovny]

I think. Yeah. And I think I might have said something like, you know, I think I would fantasize that she was my mom so that she would kiss me good night. It was very innocent.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Y. I had that With Eight is Enough. With Betty Buckley, I had a crush on her, but I didn't know it. I was like, I totally want Betty Buckley to marry my dad. And I'm like, maybe I want her to marry me. Took a while to get there.

[David Duchovny]

But you're not just a fan. You're super talented. So it's a strange kind of. Because you becoming a star makes it a little harder.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, it was kind of. I got the League of Their Own role and then to be cast in a movie opposite the most famous woman in the world as the best friend. Right. Me and Madonna, that was like a life altering casting session for me because it changed my whole world. Like, that kind of fame is once a generation. You know, that kind of Elvis, the Beatles, Madonna. And to be that close to it for so long and be able to get an opinion of what it does to the human being through being that close to, you know, Madonna, we'd be.

[David Duchovny]

You mean that was like your lesson in fame?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

This was your fame school.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

It was.

[David Duchovny]

And yet you still wanted it?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, I thought that I wanted it, but I thought, look at how much it takes away from her. We were in an elevator and people would say to her face, I like you better with blonde hair, because league, she had dyed her hair brown. And she'd be like, yeah, fuck you. You know? And at first I was like. But then I realized how many people felt that they had the right to say whatever they wanted to her, that she had lost her humanity in the eyes of the public from being too famous. And it was like a cautionary tale in a way. Not that I ever thought I would achieve that level of fame, but that any level of fame could be as toxic and demanding.

[David Duchovny]

Well, arguably you did achieve that kind, a different kind of fame, because a pop singer is somewhat removed and idealized. And you're way closer in talk shows. You're in people's homes. You're everybody's friend.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

Which is. It can be even creepier kind of fame, actually.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, I'd be in the mall with my kids and they're little in strollers, and somebody will come up and go, hey, Ro. Which if people call me Ro, I know they. I go, yeah. And they're like, whatever happened with your son? And I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't remember. Oh, no, I just watch you. But I couldn't tell by the familiarity with which they came up to me. And one time I was at Le Cirque, I think it was with Rita Wilson for her Birthday. And it was a table of who's who, you know, including Bruce Springsteen. And it was, like, the craziest. And I happened to be sitting next to Martin short, which is the best gig anyone could ever have in Hollywood, because he makes fun of everyone at the table under his breath, so only you hear it. But I was sitting there, and people kept coming over to me and tapping me on the shoulder, leaning down and saying, rosie, is that Bruce Springsteen? And I'm like, yes. And he can hear you. So go. It's like I'm the easy pass.

[David Duchovny]

Right?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right. People think, oh, that's Rosie. We'll get in that way, you know, and also, because there's so much intersectionality about my kind of appeal, because people, if they had a dead mom, if they had adopted kids, if they have an autistic kid, if they have. Like, there's so many ways that people come to me, you know, and it's often without a boundary.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I never felt like a star, and I still, to this day don't. And some of my friends who are celebrities say to me, you're the worst celebrity. I'm like, why? They go, first of all, you make eye contact with everyone. If somebody says hello to you, you say hello. I'm like, yeah, I know. Like, I don't think of myself as equal to them, you know?

[David Duchovny]

Did you have pride about the other aspects of your talent once the talk show started? Were there other parts of your life that you still felt like creatively you wanted to serve?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, that's another reason why. Not only that, you know, my mom had died young, but I was talking to people about the art that they were getting to create with other artists, and I wasn't getting to do that.

[David Duchovny]

Well, in a way, I mean, it's disposable. Like, talk show stuff is disposable.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Cause what do I have here? I want to quote you again.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Ooh, let's see if I'm impressed with myself.

[David Duchovny]

I think you will be. Maybe what it means to be an artist is knowing you are doomed to find that you can't capture it correct. Because sometimes the feelings are so huge, so beyond your medium, they go beyond your medium. And that really rung true for me.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

And I'm wondering if once you had it going, you know, once you're doing the talk show for a while, you know, okay, I've done this. And also, it's not really going to last.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Correct. And I knew that, too.

[David Duchovny]

Not just the show, but the shows themselves. Like, people aren't Gonna go back and.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Watch these things and they're cyclical and it's live. You know, I made sure to do it in New York so we could live. So the executives couldn't say, oh, I didn't like that Dom DeLuise cooking segment. Could you do it again? You know, and I was like, no, I can't. Because what happens live is electric and it's like theater. And so as soon as I was done with the show, sometimes I'd go home and like people would say, who was on today? I wouldn't even remember.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

And you do three guests a day, you know, for 40 weeks a year. That's a lot of work. A lot of people that you talk to. And I did it for. I made a four year contract when I started it because I knew my child would be entering kindergarten, then my oldest boy. And then at the height of the success, I signed on for two more years. So I ended up doing it six years. But they didn't believe me, the staff, nor Warner Brothers, when I said, no, I'm going to be done. And they kept like throwing money and throwing money and. And I really thought, if you have X amount of million dollars and you think you need X amount more, you've missed the whole point of your life. Right. Like sometimes I would say to Madonna, take off the shoes, you don't have to run anymore. You know, the race is over, you won it.

[David Duchovny]

But it's not about that.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Correct. It's not about that at all.

[David Duchovny]

And I'm saying like the it that you're going after, you know, and I understand you're making room to be a mom and to raise these kids and to be a stay at home mom in a way. But the. It is still calling to you.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes, totally.

[David Duchovny]

I'm sure it's calling to you right now.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes. And when I see beautiful work, when I see something like season three of the Bear, which I know some people didn't like, but when I see something like that that inspires so much or someone's performance, I know I have to keep going towards that. When I was a young actress, I would see Geraldine Page and Colleen Dewhurst and I would think when I'm older, those are the roles I'm going to get to play. And so not to do any plastic surgery, not to do any of the things that Hollywood usually forces you with, you know, the pressure from, you know, outside. I mean, when I started my show, Jim Perattore, the guys from Warner Brothers, they'd look at me and I'd hear them and see them going, what are we gonna do about her chin? Can we do something about her chin? And the pressure of that, even on a comedian.

[David Duchovny]

But now. So the. It is calling to you now through roles for women your age, perhaps coming down the pike, you paint.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

Is it there? Yes, it is.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

What is it like there?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

It's when I get a few hours in a row that I can turn off everything and I just blast Joni Mitchell and Eminem on every other cd.

[David Duchovny]

That's an interesting pairing.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I know, right?

[David Duchovny]

Are they alternating?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

They are. So it's five CD player I have, and everyone's like, you're not on Spotify. I'm not. And I put five CDs in. And when the five CDs are over, I'm done painting for the day.

[David Duchovny]

But the also, I think in terms of. For the same reason that talk show stuff is disposable. I'm always looking for things that'll last. I don't like talking about today, but let's talk about Trump. That's today. You figured out what these fucking Democrats have finally figured out, and what Mary Trump has been calling for for the last six years is like, mock him.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Correct.

[David Duchovny]

That's the only way to beat him down. Like, he mocks you.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right. You gotta mock him right back.

[David Duchovny]

When they go low, we don't go high.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

No. Not with him.

[David Duchovny]

No.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Or you'll never survive.

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

But you grew up in New York, right?

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

If you grew up in New York like I did, and you're around our age, you saw every one of his failed attempts to become a celebrity. We watched his Trump liquor, his steaks. We watched his planes get repossessed off the runways of LaGuardia. He was a laughing joke in New York, and everyone knew it. And New Yorkers are tough and smart and savvy, and they don't buy his bullshit in any capacity. So when I said what I said, which was easily found on any Google search, facts about him.

[David Duchovny]

Yes, right. They were facts.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

And I told the facts about him, and then he went absolutely crazy. Like, he's going now with Kamala. He's having narcissistic collapse at this point, and we're watching it happen. And it's very, very dangerous, you know? And what happens to a person who is that ill when they no longer have an escape route or a chance to escape. The whole reason he's running is to prevent going to jail, which is going to happen if the universe aligns. And, you know, but I will say that since she came in, which I was one of the ones calling for Biden to step down. And, you know, people were like, how dare you? But I knew it was our only chance. And I knew that if they went and tried to put a man in there, a white man, that they would lose so many votes and they would have no moral high ground to stand on of. We believe what we believe as Democrats, and we walk the walk.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. I mean, I think the search for the perfect candidate is a fool's errand.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I agree.

[David Duchovny]

Because a candidate is really a symbolic presence. A president is really a symbolic presence. A president is how we feel about ourselves as a country.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

And think about that for the Trump administration, but also think about it for Obama, and think about it when and if I hope Harris gets elected. It's like we can look at ourselves and say, this is what we're aspiring to. It's not necessarily what we are.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Correct. We're not there yet.

[David Duchovny]

It's not necessarily what she is.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Correct.

[David Duchovny]

It's what she stands for and what.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

We believe in and espouse as our core. Right. And the core of Donald Trump is corrupt. It's not only corrupt, it's really pathological. Like, he's very sick.

[David Duchovny]

It was one of the. The starting points for this podcast was I was so embarrassed, slash ashamed that I was. That I watched my country fall for this con man, but also he would just talk about winning, and everybody, all of a sudden, it was. Everybody was about winning all of a sudden. And I'm like, I love losers. I love losing. I love what I learn when I fail, when I lose.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

What kind of a country is it that can't lose?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

What kind of a country elects a man who can't even accept that he lost an election? Obviously.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

So there's something in this country that can't stand losing. And it goes back to, like, when we were kids, you know, like, we can't lose the Vietnam War. We have to stay in there till we win. America doesn't lose. We don't lose. It's this bullshit.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

It's all a lie, this exceptionalism.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

And I thought, okay, this podcast is going to be about holding up failure as a possible, obviously, as a learning tool, but also as a paragon of some kind, because that's what makes us all human. Rosie.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I agree. I so agree.

[David Duchovny]

You know that from a young age.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

From 10. And, you know, you watched the biggest failure that could happen. You lost your mother.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Correct. And. Which seemed unimaginable at the Time. You know, my little brother was like four, almost five. And. And he said, who's gonna take care of us now? And I said, daddy. And he said, who's that? Now? He was in shock. We had just been told. But imagine a little kid like your whole world is your mother. And when that disappears at a young age, it causes this shadow inside your soul that you're always longing and looking for something and someone that could replace her or make you feel what it was that you were longing for.

[David Duchovny]

Well, this is what you say, Rosie. You say I'm funny. Very funny. I agree.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Thank you.

[David Duchovny]

But that humor comes from fear. Not fear of Trump, not fear of failure, my fears of loss, my knowledge of death.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

It's so true, and it haunts me now. You know, I adopted a baby at 50, which, you know, my kids were getting out of the house, and I was very, very thrown by not having a child to.

[David Duchovny]

You weren't looking forward to no. Chasing it somewhere else?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

No.

[David Duchovny]

You wanted more, Mom.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I did. Because that's a hole that'll never be filled, right? So I got a call that there was a baby, and they were looking for a two mom home or a home where there would not be a dad. And, you know, I said, well, tell her that it's me, and see what she says. And one thing happened, you know, and I had just had a heart attack. David.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, I didn't know you had a heart attack.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I had a massive heart attack. Lad. The widowmaker. I had the widowmaker. And it happened on a Monday. I was at a hospital visiting a friend, and there was a woman getting out with chemo, and her hair was out. A very large woman. She was sort of stuck in the door jam of her car where the steering wheel is. And I helped her out. And then a few hours later, my arms were killing me. And then, sure enough, I had a heart attack. But I didn't go to the hospital until Wednesday night, right? So the doctor said you had about five more minutes before it was all over for you, you know, And I get in there, and he's putting the things on. He's like, what happened? I said, I helped this woman on my. He's like, could you stop talking? And then the crash car comes in, and then they're wheeling me and shaving me, and. And they said, you're gonna. We're gonna go in and put a stent in. And this nurse, I was crying, and I said, I have four kids. You cannot let me die. And she said, I promise you, I'll Be here when you wake up. And she stayed until I woke up and was there holding my hand when I woke up.

[David Duchovny]

Wow.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

It's those kind of people and those stories and those moments that make you believe in being human, you know? And there's part of celebritydom that makes you forget what it's like to be human.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Hey, everyone, it's me, Ricky Lake. Despite all my success, I've been through some serious challenges. Struggles with my weight, with hair loss, grief, everything. But despite it all, I have managed to create a life filled with ease and a whole lot of fun. Finally, in midlife, I feel like I have mastered the art of choosing happiness. And I want to share that hope, love and good health with you. Listen to the High Life with Ricki Lake from Lemonada Media, out now. Wherever you get your podcasts. I love me some me. And my nipples are touching my gut. Yes, girl. Welcome to the Body Collective podcast. I'm Katie Storino. We're here to change the conversation about weight. We're going to take everything we've learned about shame, unlearn it and transform it into a source of power. And I'm doing it with some of my greatest girlfriends. I'm Hunter McGrady. Ashley Longshore. My name is Tracy Moore. From Lemonada Media and weight watchers, the Body Collective is out. Now.

[Emily Deschanel]

Get ready for a wild mythical adventure. Melissa McCarthy leads an all star cast in a hilarious new podcast, Hildi the Barback and the Lake of Fire. In this fantastical fictional tale, McCarthy stars as Hildy, an unlikely hero from the land of Golgorath who must embark on an epic quest with an unlikely team of warriors to save the world. Starring Melissa McCarthy, Ben Falcone, Octavia Spencer, Glenn Close, and more. Hildy the Barback and the Lake of Fire spins a legendary laugh out loud tale you won't want to miss. Hildy, the Barback and the Lake of Fire is out now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Duchovny]

What I wanted to ask you too, like as a gay parent or as a gay couple parent? As a gay, would you say gay family? I don't know. Did you, do you, did you feel pressure for it to work out? Like role modeled or, you know, you're pretty much on the vanguard of getting married.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah, we did that as an act of social disobedience as well as love.

[David Duchovny]

At the time, but it was very, very new.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes. Right. When Gavin Newsom said that he was doing it, we flew there and did it.

[David Duchovny]

And then the next day, didn't they Say you can't do it anymore.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes. The next day, we were annulled.

[David Duchovny]

You were annulled.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right. So it was kind of anticlimactic.

[David Duchovny]

But did you feel pressure?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Oh, to have my family work out. My God, yes.

[David Duchovny]

Because it's strange to me because one is going after this heteronormative. Here's a word I learned. Heteronormative sense of relationship, which is you get married and you go until you die.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yep.

[David Duchovny]

And there's this gay version of it.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

But it's based on some heteronormative version.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Totally.

[David Duchovny]

And then you've got. And this is the way the family's supposed to look with two adults and children. And children.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

And that's also based on a traditional sense, I guess I'm asking did you have a vision of a different kind of family that would succeed, or did you feel extra pressure? Because I'm Rosie O'Donnell, I'm gay Rosie O'Donnell.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

And I got married publicly in the face of a society that wasn't quite ready. And so when we were breaking up and getting divorced, I felt tremendous guilt and tremendous responsibility.

[David Duchovny]

In fact, I see beyond the personal aspect.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Oh, no, just the public, that what was I doing that I had fought for gay rights for. And now. But, you know, my therapist said to me, well, to be. Have equal rights means you have the right to also get divorced.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, sure.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Like, it's not like the gays have to get married and stay forever because we can tolerate it, if that's the way you do it. But what I was, you know, trying to do was really just have a family, a house full of kids. I never thought about the relationship as much as I did about the motherhood, really. And that was a problem in my marriage because I always put them first. And, you know, even if we were in a conversation, my wife and I and one of the kids said, mom, I would turn right away and go to the kid. I wouldn't even say, wait till we're done, you know, And I would watch other parents do that. And when we were in couples therapy, you know, there was a lot of talk about me not prioritizing the relationship. And the truth is, it was true.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I didn't prioritize it. I prioritized my being the children's mother.

[David Duchovny]

I remember feeling, I put it in actors terms that I went from number two on the call sheet to number four.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

You know, like when we had.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

All of a sudden the kids were one and two.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

And Tay was three and Then I was four.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right.

[David Duchovny]

You know, so it's like. Yeah, they're not. They don't write for me like they used to, you know?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Correct.

[David Duchovny]

They don't write me the big scenes.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

No. I totally get it. And it did feel like. It felt like. I felt like that's the way it should be, that children should be cherished and adored. But if I had it to do all over again, and I'm lucky. Cause I sort of do with Clay. Is I wouldn't be as creating as little challenges for them in their life. Like, I thought all the things that upset me when I was a kid, we didn't have nice clothes because we had to do our own laundry. And everything got dirty. And the pinks and the whites, and nobody was. There was no mother presence. And like, we all looked kind of like our hair wasn't always combed. And we looked like feral children in some way, you know? And I wanted all of that gone. I remember telling, like, the housekeeper who did the food shopping sometimes I'd say, don't ever get the store brand, no matter what it is.

[David Duchovny]

No generic.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

No. Get all the brand names of everything. Because I hated that. I hated that we had to have Non Ritz hi Hoes.

[David Duchovny]

You had petroleum jelly.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Exactly. There you go.

[David Duchovny]

It's easy for us to laugh.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

It is.

[David Duchovny]

But here's my question about that. Is, you know, I read this that you said, and it's something that I've thought about a lot as a parent, too, is like, my kids are 22 and 25 now. And, you know, life is hard. There are struggles, especially at that age. You know, you're just figuring out who you are, what you want to do, what you want to be. There's going to be bumps. I hate those bumps for them.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Me, too.

[David Duchovny]

But the bumps are the best thing that can happen to them.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

They need them or they have no ability to know they can survive. What do you do then? How do you give the children a sense of fiduciary responsibility? How do you. When I really had none. And to this day, I don't have any, David.

[David Duchovny]

I don't have it either.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

My brother does. All my money. I don't even look at it.

[David Duchovny]

I don't look at it. I make it. I put it over there. I'm happy that it's over there. I'm happy that come a rainy day, people in my family can be taken care of. I'm really proud of that, I have to say. Probably too proud of it.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Me, too.

[David Duchovny]

That I did something that could be protective in this way. My mother grew up in poverty, and, you know, we were just always. It was drilled into us that, you know, for me, it was like, if you don't get an education, you're gonna wind up in the gutter. That's what it was. So the gutter is still with me.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Right. I just once it. Once they told me I had X amount of money. I remember thinking, I'm never going to talk to anyone about this again. I never have to deal with this again. And my brother used to get mad at me, and I'd say, okay, Tim, well, I'd like you to go on stage and do 15 minutes, and when you come up, you see what kind.

[David Duchovny]

Of mind you need to have to do that.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Correct.

[David Duchovny]

It's a different mind.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Correct. And I failed math. I couldn't do fractions.

[David Duchovny]

That is a tough thing about performing. I don't want to go for sympathy here, but it's like. I think of it like Raging Bull or Shakespeare's Coriolanus, if I'm going to be more pretentious. But it's like, you train to go into this arena and then, okay, let's talk about Rosie. Then you got to go home and be a mom. That's not an easy shift.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

No.

[David Duchovny]

Because you just were. It's not life and death, but it feels like life and death when you're out on a wire out there in front of millions of people doing a talk show. Obviously, in this great scheme of things, the stakes are low, like, nobody's gonna die, but your brain doesn't know that, and your performing soul doesn't know that. Every time you're out there, it's like, I've got to bring it. And Now I've got 20 minutes and I've got to get home, and I've got to be a completely different soul with these kids.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah. It was so easy for me to dissociate from the Rosie O'Donnell Persona.

[David Duchovny]

It was.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah. I would go with my kids on Broadway and I would see the kiosks, and it would be Newsweek. I'm on the COVID and I would say to myself, literally, I hear the words in my head, oh, Rosie O'Donnell's on the COVID of Newsweek. As if it had nothing to do with me. Right.

[David Duchovny]

You're telling me that as if that's a healthy thing.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I think you're saying, well, it was healthy for me.

[David Duchovny]

I think it is healthy.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah. Because I never kind of took it in. I never took in that. It meant I was Better or, you know, there are so many comics and so many people, especially on Broadway, in the chorus, who can out sing me out dance me, who are so much more talented. And here I was starring in Broadway shows. Right?

[David Duchovny]

Right.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, why is that? Because I could not, because I had the most talent. So I never thought that my success made me better than anyone else, nor did I think it made me equal to the ones I was talking to.

[David Duchovny]

You didn't go back to it. You didn't think, I've got it.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

It's interesting because you don't ever realize the effect that you have on people. You, anyone who's a celebrity or, you know, an artist in our culture, you never realize the effect you have until you allow the people to tell you. So I'm working on a new special, an hour standup special, really. And I just started it this weekend at a little club in Santa Monica called the Crow. It's about a 200 seat club, and it's like a performance space. And I did it. And it was the first time I had done this new hour. And it's largely about my child, Clay, and how the last 10 years have been really submerged in autism and autism topics and subjects. And after I walked off stage, people stayed. So I went to the tiny little green room upstairs, and I'm like, okay, everyone's gonna be gone now. And I went back down and there's 200 people still there. And they're like, can we talk to you for a minute? And I was like, okay. So people were telling me what I have meant to them. And it used to be very hard for me to take it, but I realized how much they need to say it, that I became.

[David Duchovny]

What's hard for you to take?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Oh, you know. Yeah. When people say, the boy who opened for me, the man who opened for me is a gay man. And he told a story about coming out that his mother, he was A little boy, 14, and his mother gave him the article where I came out and said, so just so you know, if you grow up to be like Rosie O'Donnell, I'd be okay. And he said, what a comedian. But I'm part of his coming out. So people tell me really heartwarming, and their eyes fill up or they cry and. Have you ever been to a Comic Con? What do you think of that experience?

[David Duchovny]

Well, at first, I had a prickly relationship to it because I was like, in all honesty, I consider myself an artist, and I do many different things, and I don't want to be limited by you. Know, X Files or whatever. The biggest thing.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah, the biggest thing you did. Yep.

[David Duchovny]

The biggest thing I've done. So I would push against that feeling of like. And that's just ego. That's just plain old ego. So at first it was like, ah, you know, I don't really want to do this. And then I been to a few and it's exactly what you're saying. It's like you realize that it's not really even about your fantasy of the worst, right? It's not my fantasy of like, oh, you know, I'm a good actor and I, you know, portrayed that. It's really about how people take you into their lives. You know, people will say, I used to watch it with my dad, who's no longer with me, and now I watch it with my son. And it becomes part of the fabric of people's cultural lives.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

A show that big or a talk show that's every day in somebody's home. So I began to just. And I'm never going to be a guy that fully embraces, you know, strangers. It's just not me. But I do appreciate and honor, I guess it's really. I honor their experience. And it has nothing to do with what I did or what I do. It's just a thing that happened.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

And I'm not going to get in their way. It's like when I first started singing and I was about to perform for the first time, and I was standing in, like a hallway outside in this club in New York, and I'm hearing people out there. I'm hearing the chatter, you know, the excited chatter. And I realized that they came out to have a good time.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

You know, they didn't come out to laugh at me. They didn't come out to have a bad time. They didn't come out to hear bad songs. It's not my business anymore. Oh, I'm just going to do my music.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Correct.

[David Duchovny]

And if I don't hit that note or that note or whatever, so what it's like, I'm not going to get in their way. And that's how I feel with the fans of shows that I've done is like, I'm not gonna get in your way of loving this or thinking that you love me or something. It's like, that's cool. That's fine. I get it now.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I went to my first one recently, and I was very thrown. I was overwhelmed by the amount of love that was coming and the amount of heightened emotions with the people, and I hate that they were having to pay to say hello to me for three minutes. And the guys who run Comic Con, because there was a huge line because I couldn't stop talking to them. If they start crying, I get up and then I hug them, and then I. You know. And so it was depleting for me in some way. The first night, you know, after doing, like, eight hours of signing, where I didn't take a break because I felt so bad that people were waiting in line that, you know, I remember going home saying, I'm not gonna do another one. I'm not gonna do another, because I felt too bad about it. But then I had this kind of epiphany of, all you have to do is show up and receive. You do not. You know, And I brought Koosh balls to give everyone a gift. And they're like, nobody gives gifts. I'm like, I know. But I felt so bad that people paid whatever they paid to get an autograph or to get a photo with me. But I realized that I did mean something or I do mean something in someone's life that I never met and that I have to respect that experience from their perspective.

[David Duchovny]

It's not an ego thing for you. It's like, just get out of their way and let them love you in a way, or let them tell you what you mean to them and you don't have to say, no, that's not really me.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah. Yeah. You should see me when I'm on a bed. Exactly. You just give them what? Just show up and be there.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. Well, it's an odd relationship. It really is. Regardless of how you handle it, I think it can be some kind of a revelation, like you said. It can be you coming to terms with who you were as well.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Correct.

[David Duchovny]

Who you are.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah. And it is a were, too, because people. I'm at a point now where at this age, with this hair, I walk around and I'm not noted. People don't bother me. People don't. Somebody will say, hey, Ro. I'm like, hi. But it is nothing. I can go unaccosted through the. And that is such a gift to me because, as I'm sure you remember when X Files was on, how hard it was to do anything and remain somewhat grounded in your life reality.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. I mean, I think that that was just, you know, it's been so long, and things become your life. It's just like, oh, you forget how it was before. You know, it's like that's. It's almost a scary kind of place to Be.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

I think it was. It was overwhelming for me. I felt like I was in, you know, the highest surf place, like Mavericks. I felt like I was at the biggest surf waves in the world, and I was in there, and all I wanted to do was paddle to the shore.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. And for me, I think, as an actor and as a writer, my greatest power was confiscated, which was my ability to observe.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Same with me.

[David Duchovny]

Because you couldn't anymore. No.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

You couldn't change when everyone's looking at you. Changed the room. Correct. You changed the room.

[David Duchovny]

So, like, before you could go in a room and, like, study behavior, nobody gives a shit to who you are, what you know. And now at a certain point, you walk in the room and everybody turns and then behavior changes a little bit.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

That's death to an actor and death to a writer.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yes.

[David Duchovny]

Because you're a creative person.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

That's where you. Everything that you use to mold the clay of your life, you know? And, you know, I was gonna say, when you were talking about whether or not the crowd was talking and getting you or whether your next thing will be good, I always think of that Joni Mitchell lyric, You know, they pass around your latest Golden Egg speculation. Who's to know if the next one in the nest will glitter for themselves? Right. Imagine Joni Mitchell worrying that her songs weren't going to be October 19th and 20th. She's at the Hollywood Bowl. Just so you know, if you're a fan. I'm a huge fan of hers.

[David Duchovny]

I'm a fan.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Huge.

[David Duchovny]

I'm a fan. Is she playing with Eminem? Are they.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

No, no. Brandy Carlisle. Just as good. Brandy Carlisle.

[David Duchovny]

That would be your dream, Bill.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

He's the one person that I would love to meet that I haven't met. Marshall Mathers. Yes. I think he has some of the most astounding lyrics on fame. He and Joni Mitchell talk about fame in a way that really comforted me.

[David Duchovny]

Which song? Which Joni Mitchell songs? Which Eminem songs are you thinking of?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, the one I just spoke about. The Sire of Sorrow Job. Sad song. Eminem does so much. So many. You know, you're trying to be a father. You can't be a father about his kids and about that dichotomy between fame and parenthood. I don't know. I was so moved by him during, you know, the two years after I left the show, which was.

[David Duchovny]

Was he not. He didn't have a single out when you were doing the.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

He just wouldn't, you know, I think. But even though he sings, I hear his lyrics about me.

[David Duchovny]

Oh, really?

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Bring around the. Rosie, the show's over. You can just go homey. But that ain't the way it's supposed to be, because that ain't the way that it works for me. And then he also has another song where he says, I want to go to McDonald's, go to Rosie O'Donnell's, sit on her lap and watch the Sopranos.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

Okay, Rosie.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Okay. David Duchovny, it's been great having you. Thanks for coming, but, no, I think that you're natural at this. I mean, you're curious, you're well prepared. You know what you want to talk about.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah, I kind of do. And I want to leave room for it, too.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[David Duchovny]

You know, to me, that's. That's what it's all about. That's what I'm trying to do.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Well, thanks for having me.

[David Duchovny]

Thank you.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

We're out of here.

[David Duchovny]

Yeah. All right. Good morning. Well, here we are. This is the thoughts on the 20th episode that we recorded. And 20 was the original order, and 20 was the original thought. Like, how can I get to 20? Jesus, that's a lot. And I just wanted to celebrate that, that we got to 20. There will be more. And I don't know, 20 is 20. What is it? I've spent so much of my life kind of like, let's say it's an achievement to do 20 podcasts. I mean, it's not a huge deal or anything, but it's something. It's something that I set out to do, and now I've done it. And so much of my life, I've gone without celebrating any kind of achievement. I don't like using that word. Makes it sound crass in a way, but commitment. I said I was going to do 20. I did 20. And then the initial thought after that is like, well, where's the next 20? Or, where's the next project? Or that's not good enough. Or podcast that's not good enough. You know, you gotta do more. And it's kind of speaking to my, situating myself inside a podcast about failure, that I can take even a success like having done 20 and turn it into a goad on myself, turn it into something that makes me feel less than or, you know, what's next? What's next? What's next? Jesus. Am I learning? Am I learning through this podcast? I think so. I'm definitely getting different perspectives. The question is, is it sinking in? That's always the question with us as humans, isn't it? We become habituated in some kind of way of being. And then we see that it's not healthy for us to be that way and we try to change. We grasp onto things that will help us change. And I think doing this podcast was a way, in a way to try to change myself through these discussions of failures. And I feel slightly changed. Maybe it's going to take 20 more. Maybe it's going to take 20,000 more. That seems more likely, but I guess that's where I'm sitting today. After 20, there's more. Fail Better with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zemma, Aria Brachi, Donnie Matias, and Paula Kaplan. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Krupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the Lovely Common, Alan Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

[Rosie O'Donnell]

Hi everyone, Gloria Rivera here, and we are back for another season of no One Is Coming to Save Us, a podcast about America's childcare crisis. This season, we're delving deep into five critical issues facing our country through the lens of childcare, poverty, mental health, housing, climate change and the public school system system. By exploring these connections, we aim to highlight that childcare is not an isolated issue, but one that influences all facets of American life. Season 4 of No1 Is Coming to Save Us is out now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Leisha Haley. And I'm Kate Manig. 20 years ago, we met playing best friends on the set of the TV show the L Word, which quickly morphed into us being actual best friends for the rest of our lives. Lives. Truly, it feels like we're an old married couple with but with fewer cats. Although we each have a number of cats in our lives, and we're pretty much inseparable and have more or less zero boundaries. Hence why we named our podcast pants. Because at this point, you can't have one leg without the other. And each week we catch up with each other on the big and small things going on in our lives, which then leads to much oversharing and little left to the imagination. Whether it's sex or therapy or money, fear, literally nothing is off the table in terms of discussion topics. Oh, and we also like to talk about that wild ride that was the L word, you know, the genesis of our friendship. And pants is out now, wherever you get your podcasts from Lemonada Media.