Faith Matters Podcast: "Choosing Community over Ideological Purity: Lessons from Exponent II" with Katie Ludlow Rich & Heather Sundahl

Date: February 1, 2026
Host: Aubrey Chavez (Faith Matters Foundation)
Guests: Katie Ludlow Rich & Heather Sundahl

Episode Overview

This episode explores the 50-year legacy of Exponent II, a publication and community rooted in the Latter-day Saint women’s tradition, focusing on its unique approach to building community through embracing complexity, difference, and deep listening rather than demanding ideological purity or conformity. Through rich stories and personal insight, guests Katie Ludlow Rich (historian/writer) and Heather Sundahl (therapist) discuss what it means to hold tension, create space for divergent experiences, and remain connected even as individual beliefs and practices shift.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Legacy of Exponent II ([02:30]–[08:10])

• The Women's Exponent:

  • Began in Utah in 1872; a voice for Mormon women, bridging daily life and national reform (e.g., suffrage).
  • Notably, early contributors grappled with contradictions, like being polygamists but also suffragists—demonstrating a "both/and" dynamic.
  • Quote (Katie, [02:46]):
    “They persisted that, yes, like we, we can hold this complexity.”

• Boston in the 1970s:

  • Intellectual and activist hub—where LDS women assembled to connect church life and emerging feminist ideas.
  • The Cambridge Relief Society created “A Beginner’s Boston” guidebook, led by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich—an example of Latter-day Saint women's initiative and creativity ([05:02]).
  • These gatherings became consciousness-raising sessions, navigating differences and discomfort but coming back because of the depth and meaning found in honest dialogue.

2. Embracing Difference and Complexity ([08:10]–[13:59])

• Early Exponent II meetings celebrated both debate and connection, refusing the instinct to smooth over or suppress disagreement.
  • Quote (Heather, [08:10]):
    “They weren't afraid to disagree with each other…that curiosity was so important. And they valued that the friendships and the connections were strong enough that they could, you know, survive the bumps.”
• The publication modeled inclusion of divergent viewpoints side by side:
  • Third issue example ([12:20]): One article advocated traditional mothering, while another highlighted a working physician-mother. Both occupied the same page, exemplifying space for multiple “scripts” about Mormon womanhood.
  • Quote (Katie, [12:20]):
    “They privilege community over ideological purity.”

3. Individual Experience and Validation ([13:59]–[15:41])

• Exponent II prioritized individual stories—encouraging validation and belonging, shifting away from the “subconscious script” of what a “good” LDS woman looks like.
  • Quote (Heather, [13:59]):
    “If someone comes along and says, this is what works for me...there's not this external pushing onto other people, privileging of their experience.”

4. Translating These Dynamics into Church Settings ([15:41]–[23:01])

• Can this nuanced, abundant model exist in traditional Relief Society settings?
  • Both guests believe it’s possible, especially when facilitators lead with vulnerability and authenticity.
  • Personal reflection (Heather, [18:15]):
    “Every time I teach, my job is…to purposefully reveal something either off script or vulnerable…so that the people in there can feel safe sharing their truths.”
• Vulnerability fosters connection and disrupts defensive “armor” that arises with fear of exposure (Brené Brown reference, [20:03]).

5. The Power of Witness and Presence ([21:19]–[24:47])

• Listening not to persuade but simply to witness another’s experience is key to connection, even when disagreement persists.
  • Story of a temple matron expressing gratitude for her daughter’s divorce—bravery and benefit to others.
• Exponent II supported a national network, connecting otherwise isolated LDS women and facilitating conversation on “taboo” or sensitive issues like depression—even before such discussions were commonplace in church ([23:01]).

6. Boundaries: Discomfort vs. Danger ([24:47]–[31:04])

• Modern audiences are quick to invoke boundaries—sometimes confusing genuine lack of safety with discomfort necessary for growth.
  • Therapist’s perspective (Heather, [26:16]):
    “There’s always been limits…discomfort is part of growth…that’s different from lack of safety.”
  • Practical advice ([28:57]):
    • Allow time to self-regulate before responding to triggers.
    • Ask: Is this discomfort growth-related, or a true violation of safety?
    • Use communication, not just cutoff, as a first solution.

7. Values in Conflict: Staying in Relationship ([31:04]–[38:17])

• When faced with value disagreements (e.g., over church teachings), remaining in community may require privileging some values (belonging, connection) over others at times.
  • Navigating echo chambers and ideological silos—recognizing that pure consensus can be isolating too.
  • Quote (Katie, [33:53]):
    “If I want to be in community, I have to be in community with people who are different from me.”
• Paradox and moral dilemmas are inherent to life and faith.
  • Reference (Heather, [37:45]):
    “Our origin story…Adam and Eve, they’re given what feel like these two contradictory things. That is life…”

8. Differentiation and Relationship Dynamics ([38:17]–[41:52])

• Drawing from therapy frameworks (Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, David Schnarch, Murray Bowen):
  • Three responses to difference: Pressure others to conform, conform yourself, or disengage/surface-level relationships.
  • True maturity (differentiation) is being secure enough to let others have different beliefs, without internal panic or attempts to change them.
  • Quote (Heather, [41:12]):
    “You can belong to yourself, but also belong to other people.”

9. Why Stay Engaged in Difficult Relationships? ([41:52]–[47:06])

• Surface relationships post-belief shifts are painful and inauthentic; real connection requires mutual work, vulnerability, and listening without seeking validation.
• Exponent II’s print format fosters deep reading and reflection—“sitting with” others’ stories, rather than jumping into reaction-mode as in online forums ([47:06]).
  • Quote (Katie, [46:05]):
    “Being able to sit with someone else’s story with deep listening is a skill and it’s a practice.”

10. Building “Windows of Tolerance” to Difference ([47:06]–[56:11])

• Practice stretching toward empathy in less-threatening settings.
• Seeking curiosity from others—and offering it—makes all the difference after faith transitions or shifts.
  • Katie’s example: A diverse “book club” became a space for intentional connection despite differences; acts of service and ritual create bonds that transcend ideological rifts ([48:19]).
• Sometimes, new points of connection must be found after old ones are lost (Katie’s moving story of connecting with her late father through shared Exponent history despite religious/political divides, [51:59]).

11. Acceptance, Not Just Agreement ([54:02]–[58:13])

• Accepting someone’s perspective or experience isn’t the same as endorsing it—witnessing is enough.
  • Reference to Christ’s need for company in Gethsemane as a model for simply being with others in pain or difference ([54:09]).
• Church can help break echo chambers by keeping us in relationship with people we wouldn’t otherwise choose, stretching our capacity for empathy and reminding us of shared values like service ([56:11]).

12. The Radical Power of Welcoming Spaces ([58:17]–[60:46])

• Creating “containers” where people can show up as their full selves, without judgment, builds the strength to engage more productively elsewhere.
  • Katie found Exponent’s New Hampshire retreat provided a rare and valuable space for self-acceptance and authentic belonging, helping her more comfortably engage with difference in other settings.

13. The Pattern and Promise of Community ([60:46]–end)

• The legacy of Exponent II offers a model far different from echo chambers or rigid purity tests:
  • True community is a complicated fabric, where deep roots allow for diversity and change, and where the messiness of difference is not a threat but a gift.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On holding complexity:
  “They publish for all of these decades engaged in these movements…They persisted that, yes, like we, we can hold this complexity.”
  — Katie, [02:46]

• On disagreement in friendship:
  “They weren't afraid to disagree with each other…that curiosity was so important. And they valued that the friendships and the connections were strong enough that they could…survive the bumps.”
  — Heather, [08:10]

• On community over ideology:
  “They privilege community over ideological purity.”
  — Katie, [12:20]

• On finding belonging in variety:
  “It’s really validating for them because a lot of times we look at other people and we’re like, oh, well, they’re doing it this way. I’m not. I’m bad…this kind of flips the script.”
  — Heather, [13:59]

• On church as a site of stretching:
  “When I go to church, I get the opportunity to be with people who I would not seek out…when you’ve picked the lice out of someone’s kid’s hair, they can no longer write you off.”
  — Heather, [56:11]

• On acceptance versus endorsement:
  “You can accept something without agreeing with it. So people can share something that is totally true to them that you completely disagree with, but you can accept it…acceptance is not endorsement.”
  — Heather, [54:09]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:30] – Exponent II’s roots in the original Women’s Exponent and its Boston revival
• [08:10] – Embracing and surviving conflict within a committed group
• [12:20] – Example of juxtaposed differing motherhood roles in Exponent II
• [18:15] – Vulnerability as a teaching and connecting practice in Relief Society
• [24:47] – Boundaries: discomfort versus true lack of safety
• [31:04] – Navigating value conflicts without resorting to echo chambers
• [38:17] – Differentiation in relationships, pressures to conform, and authentic belonging
• [47:06] – Developing tolerance for difference and the value of print, slow reading
• [48:19] – Neighborhood book club as micro-model for intentional difference
• [54:09] – Acceptance and witness versus agreement
• [56:11] – Role of church community in breaking echo chambers
• [58:17] – Importance of spaces where full self is welcomed
• [60:46] – The alternative vision of community: not purity, but complexity

Final Reflections

This episode offers a powerful, practical meditation on what keeps communities vital and resilient: the courage to stay engaged through discomfort, to truly witness others’ stories, and to value belonging over correctness. Whether in Relief Society, family, or larger faith community, the story of Exponent II stands as a model for a different kind of togetherness—one that’s more needed now than ever.

For more, visit exponent2.org and explore “50 Years of Exponent II.”