Finding Nourishment in the Old Testament, with Sarah and Josh Sabey

Summary

Faith Matters Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode: Finding Nourishment in the Old Testament, with Sarah and Josh Sabey

Date: January 4, 2026
Host: Faith Matters Foundation
Guests: Sarah and Josh Sabey

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Overview

In this thoughtful and expansive episode, Faith Matters welcomes back writers and filmmakers Sarah and Josh Sabey to discuss their latest project, The Bible Storybook, a two-volume retelling of 50 Old Testament stories. Eschewing scholarly analysis and doctrinal rigidity, Sarah and Josh offer a “heart-first” approach, exploring the complex, contradictory, and deeply human experiences of figures in the Old Testament. With a focus on storytelling for both families and adults, their reimagined tellings invite listeners to find contemporary relevance, emotional depth, and enduring wisdom—even in the Bible's most challenging passages.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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The Power of Story Over Scholarship

• Storytelling as Sacred Practice
  • Josh Sabey reflects on how modern scripture study can become “a really cerebral act” focused on etymologies and doctrine, missing the way stories move hearts—especially in children and those longing for spiritual reconnection.

    “I think it’s actually a little bit to our detriment as adults that we’ve deprived story time as sacred time... What we feel and the stories we tell actually matter quite a lot.” (03:43 – 04:23)

  • Sarah and Josh position their retellings as experiences in themselves, not as vehicles for moralizing or scholarly decoding.

Approaching Old Stories Afresh

• A Loyalty to the Story
  • Their main commitment is to the integrity and beauty of each story itself, rather than doctrine or historicity.
  • Stories are presented matter-of-factly, even with problematic elements (e.g., polygamy, flawed portrayals of God), without imposing a modern moral lens.

    “Our main loyalty is to just tell the story that’s there… We try to be true to telling a story that’s there and a possibility of that story.” (15:34 – 16:41)

  • Rather than smoothing out discomforts or reframing narratives to fit modern sensibilities, the Sabeys lean into the messiness, viewing the tension as spiritually fruitful.

Wrestling with Difficult Texts

• Jonah’s Story — A Portrait of Rage, Rescue, and Reluctant Grace

  • The Sabeys present a reading of Jonah that centers on his anger, sense of injustice, and difficulty accepting God’s boundless mercy.

    "God had come for Jonah not to punish him, but to save him and put him to work. And Jonah knew he didn’t deserve it. And if he didn’t deserve it, neither did the Assyrians." (09:41 – 10:09)

  • Their retelling concludes with an encouragement for the listener to be “a bush,” a fleeting source of shade or comfort, trusting that “God is sending a whale to save you” in your own tumult.

• The Exodus — Revenge and Its Costs

  • Josh breaks down how the narrative of revenge runs through the Exodus, drawing attention to often-overlooked details: Joseph’s enslavement of the Egyptians, reciprocal cycles of violence, and the hollow victory of retributive justice.

    “Revenge is impossible. So don’t try. It deepens grief. It extends tragedy. It multiplies suffering, because it is like hunting a dragon. You can hunt and hunt all you want, but dragons don’t exist. And neither does revenge.” (31:07 – 31:39)

  • The ultimate movement, they suggest, is from revenge to a new, nourishing law:

    "In the desert, they would learn that God had not come to give them revenge at all, but a law. Because revenge was not real. But the law was... It would end the cycle of hurt and hurting—instead of payback, it would bring peace." (32:12 – 33:07)

Embracing Ambiguity in Scripture

• The Sabeys emphasize that the Bible—and people’s perceptions of God—are plural, complex, and often inconsistent:

  “The Bible attributes a lot of actions to God, and it’s hard to tell, did God do this, or is this someone trying to understand why this happened? …We focus on that grappling of people humanly trying to understand how God fits in this world.” (20:37 – 21:11)

• They encourage readers to become “part of the process,” finding inspiration in the tension and mystery, rather than feeling alienated by contradictions.

Children’s Literature That Nourishes Everyone

• Although the books are marketed for families and children, adults find them deeply resonant.
• The approach allows for “more sentimentality, but in the best way,” reminiscent of C.S. Lewis and E.B. White’s best work for young readers.

  “Any children’s story that is written only for children is not a good children’s story. Yeah. And I feel like that’s sort of our anthem.” (36:03 – 36:26)

Notable Story-specific Insights

• Adam & Eve

  • The story foregrounds the bravery of living with knowledge of sorrow and joy—likening the fruit to “spicy, vinegary, adult flavors” (40:48 – 41:00)—not just as origin of guilt, but the richness and risk of real life.

• Cain the Perfectionist

  • Inspired by Steinbeck’s East of Eden, they depict Cain as a tragic perfectionist—a child who wants to exist "outside the fallen world," whose striving for perfection prevents simple goodness and connection.

    “When you’re trying to be perfect, you’re not going to be able to be good. When you’re trying to get everything right, you’re not going to get anything right.” (44:39 – 45:21)

  • The grace comes not in retribution, but in letting Cain live—to avoid adding more violence to the world (46:10 – 46:27).

• Elisha and the Syrian Army (They That Be With Us)

  • The “they that be with us” angel story resolves not in violent deliverance, but through radical peacemaking:

    “Instead, the attacking army is blinded... and Elisha leads them to the city, where instead of killing them, the king lays out a feast... and they commute together, and then they go home, and they never attack the kingdom of Israel again. It’s an amazing moment of peacemaking.” (47:54 – 48:47)

The Art: Visual Language as Theological Statement

• The new storybook is illustrated by Maddie, featuring bold pinks, reds, and mythological themes—contrasting the “softness” of earlier works—embodying the Old Testament’s urgency, power, and focus on earthly justice.

  "Hagar is this disinherited slave who was, I think, used as property in every conceivable way as this really empowered cover image." (52:09 – 52:21)

• The immediacy of the art mirrors the Old Testament’s concern for justice in the here-and-now, not just the afterlife.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Story vs. Scholarship:

  “My profound experience with the Atonement has always been the telling of the Atonement... not some explanation about it. That’s a real tragedy when we think our job in reading is to somehow get past the text, when so much of the meaning is unsubtractable.” — Josh (06:01 – 06:45)

• On Embracing the Mess:

  “The Bible’s kind of wily… the stories are often hard to tie down… and that happens a lot, where something surprising happens in the story where it doesn’t fit.” — Josh (24:36 – 24:52)

• On Difficulty, Discomfort, and Growth:

  “The complexity and even the discomfort of the Old Testament can become fertile ground for a deeper, more expansive faith.” — Aubrey Chavez (01:24 – 01:37)

• On Revenge and Healing:

  “Revenge is impossible. So don’t try. It deepens grief. It extends tragedy. It multiplies suffering, because it is like hunting a dragon. You can hunt and hunt all you want, but dragons don’t exist. And neither does revenge.” — Sarah (31:11 – 31:39)

• On Writing and Creativity:

  “If your heart is in something, you can spend a lot of time planning…and you can also start writing… Little bits at a time just keep chipping away.” — Sarah & Josh (53:47 – 55:37)

• On Adam and Eve’s Fruit:

  “The fruit is delicious and you have to learn to eat it… that’s our daily bread.” — Josh (40:58 – 41:12)

• On Cain’s Perfectionism:

  “When you’re trying to be perfect, you’re not going to be able to be good… you’re going to miss everything.” — Josh (44:39 – 45:21)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Project Overview — 00:00–02:47
• Why Storytelling Matters — 02:47–06:45
• Retelling Jonah’s Story Excerpt — 06:45–13:42
• Approach to Difficult Passages and Moral Frameworks — 13:42–18:57
• Portrayal of God & Human Views in the Text — 18:57–21:11
• Death of the Author/Authorial Intent & Possibilities in Meaning — 21:11–23:18
• Themes of Nationalism & Narratives that Undermine Themselves — 23:18–26:19
• Exodus and Revenge—A Fresh Retelling — 26:19–33:07
• Discussion on Adult vs. Children Audience — 33:46–36:26
• Adam & Eve—The Wisdom of the Fruit — 39:11–41:12
• Cain—The Perfectionist — 42:16–46:27
• Elisha and Peacemaking — 46:15–49:33
• On Art and Visual Power — 49:35–53:06
• Final Reflections and Wisdom for Creators — 53:08–55:43

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Conclusion

Through artful, compassionate, and sometimes playful storytelling, Sarah and Josh Sabey invite listeners and readers to rediscover the Old Testament as a living source of wisdom, complexity, and hope. Their approach, unconstrained by doctrinal demands or over-literalism, honors the heart and humanity of biblical figures—and our own journeys of faith and doubt. Their advice to aspiring creators: “just start,” embrace imperfection, and trust the story.

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For more, find “Little Saints” wherever you listen to podcasts, and the Bible Storybook at 4littlesaints.com. The full audiobook is available to Friends of Faith Matters.

Transcript

[Aubrey Chavez]

Wayfair issue 7 is almost ready to print and we can't wait for you to read it. It's all about the concept of trust. Trust in God, in ourselves and in our communities. And it centers women's wisdom and experience with trust, especially the trust in our individual relationship with heavenly parents that allow each of us to act with power and integrity in our own lives. Become a friend of Faith Matters or become a paid subscriber to wayfair magazine by March 31st to receive this beautiful issue in the mail. Links are in the show Notes hey everybody, this is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. Today we're sharing a conversation with writers and filmmakers Sarah and Josh Sabie about their new project, the Bible Storybook, which is a two volume collection of 50 stories from the Old Testament. You might remember their Book of Mormon Storybook. And like those earlier volumes, this new project is guided by a simple and beautiful idea that these are stories about a real God who loves real people. People who are complicated, wounded and doing their best to understand how God is working in their lives. For many of us, the Old Testament can troubling, full of contradictions, harsh laws, and stories that might not always align with the God that we've come to know through Jesus. So if the thought of spending a whole year studying this text feels daunting, this episode is especially for you. Sarah and Josh offer a powerful way back into these familiar stories through a fresh and deeply thoughtful lens. While staying fully anchored in the text, they invite us to see the people and events in new and meaningful ways. Their storytelling will invite you to consider what the Exodus story teaches us about revenge and healing. And what if Cain was actually the first perfectionist undone by his impossible expectations? And what can Jonah reveal about our own gifts and heartbreak? Their retellings don't avoid what's difficult. They honor the tension again and again. They show how the complexity and even the discomfort of the Old Testament can become fertile ground for a deeper, more expansive faith. We hope that this episode leaves you feeling so excited to dive into this text again, to rediscover the Old Testament as a living well of wisdom, beauty, and a God who still meets us in the mess. And with that, here's our conversation with Sarah and Josh Sabie

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

all right, we'll see. Sarah and Josh, we're so excited to have you guys back. Thanks so much for being here and for bringing us another gift of a book. We're just so thrilled that this book was finished in time for our Old Testament year and you bring so much heart and just Such a thoughtfulness while really preserving the bones of the story. And it's just such. It's really such a gift. Um, what I want to ask you right off the bat, before we get into any of the actual stories, you say in the forward that you're. You're really thinking about storytelling and. And telling stories beautif beautifully, as opposed to scholarship and defining, you know, Hebrew words and. And so I'd love for you to just talk about your approach and why you feel like that matters and why it works.

[Sarah Sabie]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Josh Sabie]

First. And also just always such a pleasure to talk with you guys. Yeah.

[Sarah Sabie]

I think when we. When.

[Josh Sabie]

When you talk, when you think about scripture study, I think it's become a really cerebral act. Right. Like you imagine, like, sitting by yourself early in the morning, tracing etymologies, looking up strong concordances, looking at the index and the topical guide. And I think there's obviously value to that. There's value in sussing out principles, and I don't want to dismiss that, but I think especially for kids, they don't care about etymologies. What kids care about is stories. And I do think stories matter for children, certainly in carrying so much value and weight and carrying principles as well. You can tell a kid it's wrong to lie, or you can tell a kid a story about a time that you lied and you felt really bad about it, and that's obviously going to have a significantly larger impact for that child. And I think it's actually a little bit to our detriment as adults that we've deprived story time as sacred time, that we've imagined that the way to access God is through the head instead of really thinking about how to move into a heart space. Because certainly, I think for religion, what we feel and the stories we tell actually matter quite a lot. And not just understanding how to decode the story the right way in order to get to the truth, but rather just appreciating the story itself, I think is an important way to access God and to access real religious experience.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

I would just add.

[Josh Sabie]

So there's a long history of seeing the Bible as a cryptic text that you're supposed to decode to. To find the truth. And I think what you miss there is just. Yeah. What's staring you in the face? These collections of stories that have lasted for thousands of years, that were shared before they were written down for at least hundreds of years. And just like the fact that they've existed means there's something in them that's human. And we often miss that. And I had a. I think I realized this first in high school. We had an Iraqi refugee living with us. He was my age. And we were talking about God and Jesus, you know, sort of just discussing different. Our different ideas. And I was trying to explain, like, the Atonement to him. And this is the first time I was, like, talking to someone that doesn't sort of share my background about how this all works. And he was just so confused. Like, wait, why does God. Why can't God just forgive people? Like, wait, God could just say, you're forgiven. Like, what's the need for this? Killing someone? Or he's subject to some other law. And so I remember after that conversation, I was like, okay, I got to really understand this. And so I. You know, I. Trying to study atonement theories, and I just remember being disappointed by them, like, every time being like, oh, that's an interesting theory. But that was. That. That was the experience of. It was like, oh, interesting theory.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Did you go full Cleon Skousen with this? Do you remember? Do you remember this? There was an article on my mission. You got very, very, very specific, like, metaphysics of the Atonement.

[Josh Sabie]

I remember, like, four main theories I studied. There's, like, Christus, Victor, and.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

Penal substitution theory. And I don't know. Different.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Different theories. Mine was very deeply Mormon.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah.

Yeah. And so I just remember feeling sort of disappointed. Like, I thought this was gonna be this, like, really spiritual experience, like, understanding the Atonement. And I realized actually, the telling the story of the Atonement. Right. Jesus on the cross, his resurrection, those. You know, and. And the birth of Jesus, like, these stories are magical. You hear those story, and they contain a truth that you can't subtract out of the story. And I just realized that my profound experience with the Atonement has always been the telling of the Atonement. Right. Not. Not some explanation about it. And I think that's a real tragedy when we think that our job in reading is to somehow get past the text, get past the stories to some, to subtract out some truth, and that's where the meaning is, when so much of the meaning is unsubtractable.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah, love that. We thought that it would be great for listeners to actually get a feel for one of the stories in its entirety, if that's okay. Would you guys mind?

[Josh Sabie]

Absolutely. So this is not a story in its entirety. We're gonna read part of the Jonah story, but I'll summarize the beginning. So we have Jonah, who's Grown up while the family of Jacob has been captive by the Assyrian Empire, or I guess a colony in the Assyrian Empire. And the Assyrian Empire is famously really, really brutal. I believe they were famous for perfecting the art of impaling people as this form of public torture and control. And so he hates the Empire, and he becomes this prophet in order to try to help bring the Empire down, like Elijah and these other heroes from the Old Testament. And then he gets this revelation, and God says, I want you to go preach repentance to them, and if they repent, I'll forgive them and they'll be saved. And Jonah is obviously devastated by that. And so we'll pick up from there.

[Sarah Sabie]

So Jonah packed a bag and ran away. He ran all the way to the sea, but the sea wasn't far enough. And so he boarded a ship and set sail. He didn't care where he was going. He didn't care if he could find a job or make a living or even survive. Whatever he did, he was not going to save the Empire. And as the ship sailed, Jonah's anger turned to rage, and the rage filled his soul, and his mind caught fire, and his memories burned and shriveled, turning into ash. The soldiers in the street, the Empire's flag, the Assyrian song, pulsed in his mind.

[Josh Sabie]

He hated them, every bit of them.

[Sarah Sabie]

He hated the king, the soldiers, the armies of Israel who had fallen and failed to stop the empire. He hated the people in the streets who were too weak to fight back, the people like himself who survived and just continued living as if they could just move on. But most of all, he hated the

[Josh Sabie]

God who would let it all happen.

[Sarah Sabie]

His mind was a storm with lightning, thunder, swells, wind and torrents. But then a salty wave hit him in the face. The storm wasn't in his mind at all. It was real. And the waves were getting bigger, the wind faster, the thunder louder.

[Josh Sabie]

This was the end.

[Sarah Sabie]

And Jonah understood. God was accepting his resignation. God had come to end his life. This is my fault, Jonah told the sailors. God is punishing me. Throw me overboard and you will see.

[Josh Sabie]

The storm will stop.

[Sarah Sabie]

So the sailors threw Jonah over. And right away, the storm stopped. And Jonah once again was once again floating in an ocean of desperation. He was ready to die. He stared at the sky and waited to sink down into the water where the waves and fish would claim him. But he did not die. Instead, a whale came and swallowed him whole and carried him back to the land where it spit him onto a beach completely and entirely alive. And when Jonah woke up, he knew

[Josh Sabie]

exactly what he had to do.

[Sarah Sabie]

God had come for Jonah not to punish him, but to save him and to put him to work. And Jonah knew he didn't deserve it. And if he didn't deserve it, neither did the Assyrians. God was not saving them because they were good or because they hadn't done bad things. They had done terrible things. But he was still saving them. He was saving them for the same reason he saved Jonah. Because they were his and they were in trouble. They were lost in the middle of the ocean and he wouldn't just abandon them. And while Jonah didn't understand it, he found the strength to try. He walked straight to the center of the empire. And he did what God had sent him to do. He told the Assyrians to repent. And he taught them about the God of his ancestors, who was powerful but compassionate, just but forgiving, and who hadn't given up on the people of Assyria. It took everything Jonah had. All of his strength, all of his generosity, all of his self control. And he preached as hard as he'd ever prayed. And when he was done, he left the city and went onto a hill to watch. And Jonah hoped he had failed. That the Assyrians would ignore his message

[Josh Sabie]

and maybe send an army to find Jonah and kill him like they had

[Sarah Sabie]

done to so many other people from the family of Jacob. Jonah wouldn't run. He'd be glad to die now, knowing the empire was about to be destroyed. Because if they didn't repent, God would finally send a storm or lightning or a meteor to finish them off. And Jonah would have fulfilled his life's goal. And so Jonah fell asleep, exhausted by his preaching and anger and hope and desperation. And God saw Jonah sleeping and he was proud of Jonah. Because for just a moment, Jonah had managed to push down his hate. He'd preached a message of hope and forgiveness to his enemies. He'd worked hard and now he was sound asleep, the sun beating against his face, causing it to burn. So God grew a small bush to give Jonah shade. And when Jonah woke, he sat in the shade and watched as his dream fell apart. The Assyrians were repenting. Was it possible? They were not going to kill or torture or sin anymore and God was going to bless them for their decision to be good. And Jonah watched, not realizing that he'd done it. He toppled the empire from within, not with armies or lightning, but with forgiveness and redemption. But Jonah couldn't see the miracle. He felt no joy or sense of accomplishment. The bush covering Jonah withered and died. And he was left in the harsh sunlight. So he yelled at God, how could you? How dare you take that shade away from me? But God knew Jonah was saying a lot more than that. He wasn't really talking about a bush. He was asking some really big, hard to answer questions like, how could you forgive the Assyrians after what they've done to my people? If you were going to save them, why did it have to be through me? And Jonah wept, not understanding. He was just floating on the surface of God's big plans. His imagination could not stretch as big or as wide as God's imagination. And his love was not as big or as strong as God's love. And his forgiveness was not as deep or as pure as God's forgiveness. Jonah was no whale. He could not live in the ocean or plumb the mysterious depths. If anything, he was a temporary bush that provided shade for a moment and then was gone. And perhaps that is all any of us can be. But don't forget that while a bush is no whale, it was also a gift from God. And so if you can, even for just a moment, be a bush, be like Jonah, give shade when you can, as long as you can. And if you get lost or feel yourself treading the infinite depths in fear you might sink, please know that God is sending a whale to save you. And it is big enough to swallow you whole.

[Josh Sabie]

Thank you.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

That's such a beautiful little glimpse of what you find in every story. And I think this is what I wanted to ask you. And because this really illustrates it, it feels like you're pulling out things that are there, like they're part of the story, but I've never seen it this way. And. And so I. It reminds me, actually, there's this book I love by Rachel Held Evans, and she talks about how PETA and sort of challenged her where she was. She was kind of in this, like, new Christianity. Like, her. Her faith was really evolving. And she had. She had grown up in a way, like, seen the Bible in one way, and she talks about how it was kind of a rule book or a handbook. And. And as her faith evolves, she starts, like, losing it, starts losing a lot of meaning. And she, like, doesn't have a home for it. And she says that Pete ends. Really challenged her to just ask, like, what if the Bible is just fine the way it is? Like, what if it's not this met. This, like, broken mess that you're. You come to it with. And that resonates with me. Like, I think I opened the book expecting it to be problematic now. And, and I really, I love the way there's just this softness about the stories where you just, you accept the fish and the whale and you're not, you're not like trying to make it anything else. It just. That is the context of this wisdom. And then it opens up all of these examples of a loving God that I do feel something about that like I want to believe in. And I think I get snagged on the language and the history and the probability. And I just. So I just want you to. I would love for you to just talk about that. Like, how are you thinking about what's literal and, and what's right and wrong about the context of the story itself before you get into what you can pull out of it that maybe useful in your life right now?

[Josh Sabie]

Let me maybe take a stab at that. We, we sort of have maybe a hierarchy of loyalties.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Sabie]

Okay.

[Josh Sabie]

Really?

So, yeah, I think our first loyalty is to, to the story.

Okay.

So we're not, it's not like we're trying to tell these stories in a way that complements a specific doctrinal set.

Right.

It's not like, okay, here. These are the doctrines that, you know, this has to prove that, you know, or sustain this, this belief. And we're not using them to be like historical. Right? To say, like this is how this all had to come down in a historical sense. Our main loyalty is to just to tell the story that's there. Obviously we make some choices. You know, we are writing these sort of for kids that we say that for families because it's absolutely something that an adult could read appreciate. But we, you know, we don't delve into the violence more than we think we need to at different times. We don't shy away from it, but so we make some choices on where we focus. But it's all there in the story and we try to be true to telling a story that's there and a possibility of that story. Now, every story can be taken different ways, but I think our stories are all possible within the text and we really just want to tell a collection of beautiful stories that feel human and real.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah, I think, I mean, this is just a follow up, similar to what I was asking, but it seems like one of your loyalties also is not to a moral framework that you are personally imposing upon the stories. So like, one of the stories that I've read is, is Jacob and Rachel and Leah. Right. And this is, I mean, if you bring a modern sensibility to that There are some problems. I mean, this polygamous relationship is potentially a problem. Not to mention the bigger issue that Rachel and Leah's father is just sort of like, giving them away. Yes. You know, making contractual agreements with them. Um, but you guys, it is in the story and the way you tell it, it's just sort of like matter of fact. And that's actually not the focus, the moral focus of what you bring out in that story. So was it hard to sort of like, hold yourselves back a little bit when you. When you encounter those types of. Those types of things in the story?

[Josh Sabie]

Like, to not condemn, like. Yeah, polygamy is actually really.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Or like, rework it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I. I almost expected. I almost expected there to be a moment. Yes, exactly.

[Josh Sabie]

We sort of did. There's a moment. So this is really interesting because I guess we've. In the Church of Christ Latter Saints, we've have a history of using that as maybe some defense of polygamy. But if you don't have that context, polygamy in the Old Testament is messy. The families get completely. I mean, this is the beginning of a fracture that animates the rest of the text. Right. This is. This rivalry between these sisters forms, you know, this 12 tribes, and that leads ultimately in the scattering of Israel and, you know, and this. This reunion that needs to happen, this bonding back together. So this, you know, it's this incredibly messy story, and it's definitely not presented as this idyllic example of how marriage and family should be.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

So what about your. When you talk about loyalties and a hierarchy, how are you thinking? Like, what is your loyalty to your understanding of God? Because it feels like that's something that can feel a little fluid. Like sometimes that God seems impulsive and jealous and. And like, just like, really reactive. And it feels like you don't ever. I don't feel like I ever see a glimpse of that God in these stories. And this feels like a God that really does resonate with me. So I'm just curious how you read that God into the stories that. Where that might not be obvious straight out of the King James version.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah, for sure. So I really love Christ's parables of the kingdom of heaven in part because they're so messy and so contradictory. You know, he's just like, heaven is like this and God is like this. But also God and heaven are like this, and it's totally different. They're this jealous master who, like, kills their servant, you know, and then. And then other times he's like, super Forgiving. And then he's sorting the sheep from the. Like. It's so messy and it doesn't make sense, and the algebra never works out. But somehow God is like all of these things. And I think that feels resonant in our approach to God. I think in some of these stories, or at least how I understand God in the scriptures, where. The Bible. The scriptures are this account of God's

[Sarah Sabie]

presence in the world.

[Josh Sabie]

Yes. But I think also importantly, it's an account of people trying to understand God's presence in the world. And that doesn't always come together in very clean ways. And it's messy. And they have different conflicting ideas about how God's working and doing his business here. And I think that has some benefits.

[Sarah Sabie]

Right.

[Josh Sabie]

I think part of the result of that is that the God that we see is. Yeah. Is just really wild.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Right.

[Josh Sabie]

Like this untamed presence that exists beyond, like, our neat boxes of what divinity is and should be. And I think also it allows us to join in this really ancient process of trying to figure out who this God is, joining in the mystery of trying to make sense of his presence in our lives, in these lives, in this history, in our history, and allowing it to be a little bit mysterious.

Yeah, I would just say that I think the angle we take is often people trying to understand God rather than God doing these things. The Bible attributes a lot of actions to God, and it's hard to tell, did God do this, or is this someone trying to understand why this happened? Why did we lose this war? Is it because God didn't want us to win or. Yeah, bad strategy or. So there's a lot of grappling, and I think we focus on that grappling of people really humanly trying to understand how does God fit in this world that we live in.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah, the Bible, I mean, yeah. The Old Testament in particular has so many really meaty, just great, great stories as stories. Noah, obviously, and Jonah and Job and Adam and Eve. And there's obviously several different levels on which you can read those stories. One of them maybe the most fundamental, just a literal reading, like, we're. We're reading history here. And I think a lot of. I mean, Christians in America today read it that way. I don't think that's mostly what we're talking about here. Another level that you could read them out would. Would be to say, okay, this is a story. What does this story mean? And you could also. You, like, as part of that, you could, like, try to really get at the author's original intent. To what extent do you think that level of reading is important? Like getting at a meaning that was intended in the story or. My. My sense is that's not what you're doing. But I'm curious to hear.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah. To what degree do we believe in death of the author? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think what we didn't try to build here, like, this is what these stories are. Right. This is a possibility of the story. There are lots of ways. And you can read a story at a different time in life and draw something else out. Our goal here is to tell the stories beautifully and to have them be resonant today. You know, to have them feel real to our children and meaningful. And then the other thing about it is it's not. I mean, I don't see it as a text with a single author. Right. There's a lot of authorship going on here. These are stories that have been passed. And so it's not just like, there's one intent. So I think what we try to do is present to our children. This is possible in this text. You can read this text and see these stories. This is all true to this text. Now, you could read this and see a very. And come out with a very nationalistic message. There's a lot of nationalism in the Bible, but this is also true. Like, these stories are also in the Bible. There's this, you know, this universal desire for, you know, restoration, this desire of, you know, giving of charity to the stranger. Like this is in the Old Testament. We're not talking about the New Testament. Like, the Old Testament is full of grace and charity and justice. That's all there. And so we want people to see these stories and see what's some of these latent possibilities. Possibilities that we haven't maybe talked about much.

[Sarah Sabie]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah. I will say I think it is true, though, that to Josh's point and to yours, there is a lot of nationalistic interpretations of God's presence in the world of the Old Testament. And I do think it's important to acknowledge that to the extent of, like, you know, this is the sort of inheritance that the people in these stories have. This is how they've. They read God in the world. If God will help us when we're doing right, and we will always win if we're doing. And I think that's important to understand on a human level in order to understand these stories more fully as well, just because, I mean, I think that's what a lot of these stories are challenging Job and others of. If this is a God that you inherit. Then how do you react when God doesn't seem to be working that way?

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

There's lots of examples of the stories not fitting sort of the narrative that someone tries to put into it. So there's lots of people there. Sort of like a meta analysis. This isn't true in the Book of Mormon too, where someone is trying to say, this is what this means, and then the story sort of undoes it, you know, like, where it's like, these were the bad guys, and then something. Something strange happens, you know, like whether it's. What's a good example of that?

Yeah. I mean, the Syrian army was the bad guys. The angels had come to save them. But then actually they win by feeding them and by communing together, not by obliterating the enemy.

Yeah. So, Elisha, you know.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

You have this sort of narrative, this meta narrative, like good guys, bad guys, and then it's undone. And that happens a lot where something surprising happens in the story where it doesn't fit. And I think the Bible's kind of wily in that way, where the stories are often hard to tie down.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah, I think that's what I really liked about this, that. Well, and I love the way you put it there. That. Like, the. I guess the way I've thought about the Old Testament, which has made it feel a little rigid and stiff for me, is that any. Any amount of interpretation is like I'm getting away from whatever the original meaning was. And I feel like what you're showing is that, like, we're totally part of this process, that the. The Bible is inspiring us in the sense that we're. We're part of trying to understand God's work in the world. And so understanding, even what feels problematic about a story is just as holy as the experience of the author who's saying, this is what I'm pretty sure God was doing in my life that feels like the book is more alive in a nourishing way than just this thing that feels kind of like an obstacle when you bump into it, and it doesn't resonate with what you believe about God. So I would love to just throw you some examples from a handful of the chapters and maybe you can talk about the way you were doing that, because that's kind of what we pulled out. Like, some of our favorite stories where you. You bring up something that's there that I've never considered or. Or that, like, hasn't been a part of my telling of the story. So, though maybe Just the one. Because this feels the. Like we're kind of talking about. This is the. The Exodus story. I loved your telling of it with the lens of revenge and like, what revenge eventually. What the pursuit of revenge eventually looks like.

[Josh Sabie]

Maybe I can take a little bit and you can look for reading or. I think this is a story that probably surprised me, you know, having read it before. But when I went into it to write it, you know, it's a different experience. I was shocked at some of the details that are right there in the text. Right? So we have. We all know the story of, you know, the seven years of plenty, seven years of famine. And we have Joseph there, you know, being this sort of viceroy character, you know, storing all the food and then divvying it out. And in that process, he enslaves all of Egypt, like it's said right there in the text. So he's. So first they're coming and they're saying, okay, we need to buy food. And he. So they. They spend all their money on food. Not all of Egypt. There's no money left in Egypt. Like, well, what can we do now? I was like, well, maybe you could sell your cattle and your. Your lands. And so they buy it. So now the pharaoh owns all the land, all the cattle, all the money, and they still are starving. Like, well, so then they pretty much sell themselves. It says, like, all. They were all sold into slavery to Sparrow. His own people are, like, imprisoned to him now under Joseph's direction. Who does this?

He's.

He's the mastermind of it. And he pretty much enslaves all of Egypt to. As he feeds them. And he's a hero, right? At this point, he's giving them food and he's a hero. And they welcome his family when they come down. And. But then, you know, attitudes change. You know, as the famine's over and he's no longer seen as a hero or something changes. There's a new pharaoh and a new feeling in the air, right? People, it seems likely, are bitter that they've sold all of their stuff, they've lost their liberties because of Joseph, and now they're slaves to their own pharaoh. And so what do they do is sort of predictable. They enslave the family of Joseph, right? They enslave the family of Jacob and they become slaves. So that's how this whole thing starts. And then they're slaves. And we know the Exodus story, but, you know, there's the. There's the whole plagues. All the plagues happen. And then you Know the. The last, final, terrible plague where all the firstborn of the Egyptians die. Just sort of reminiscent of what the pharaoh had done to, you know, the Israelites, where he had killed all the males. It was the firstborn males. He killed any male that was born. They were thrown into the Nile. And so you have this sort of like revenge narrative there where firstborns die and all the Egyptians are terrified. And then the. The fam of Jacob is what we call them. They go and take all their stuff before they. They. So the Exodus doesn't start right away. First they go and take all the gold and cattle from the Egyptians and then leave. And the Egyptians get handed over because they're all terrified that, you know, God's going to kill them because they just killed all their firstborn. And so they go. They go off. And then there's. This is another thing I had never really noticed before. Like, there's no reason to believe that they had to go across the Red Sea. That that was the plan. Right. Except for that they took all the Egyptian stuff and a few days later they're upset and so they go chasing after them and. And then God has to save them by sending them across the Red Sea. And they're stuck in the wilderness for a long time. So maybe that was a detour. We don't know. But if they had not gone, if they had not. If they had not seen it as this, like, God has helped us revenge, we're going to take all of our gold. And if. If they had had a different narrative, maybe they never would have had to cross the Red Sea. Maybe would have been a very different narrative. We don't know. But. But it's just this. And then when they get across the Red Sea and the sea topples on top of the Egyptians, you know, there's a. The oldest text probably in the Bible, the Song of Miriam is all about rejoicing and the destruction of these people and then what happened and the salvation right of. Of the family Jacob. But then they're stranded and thousands of people die and all their cattle died that they stole. And so just it's this. The story of revenge and that ultimately we should read the end of that where it talks about.

Yeah, yeah. I'll just add. I remember being in. In a poetry class, a sacred poetry class in my undergrad, and we read the Psalm of Miriam, and it was like the celebration of, like, this is

[Sarah Sabie]

the first woman's voice recorded in the

[Josh Sabie]

Bible, and it's the oldest text. I just remember feeling like what happened to this person that this is, like the record of her life.

[Aubrey Chavez]

Right.

[Josh Sabie]

The record of her voice is this rejoicing in somebody else's annihilation. You know? And again, I think when you. When you're, like, taking children seriously and taking their fears and concerns seriously about. About, you know, life and. And God loving us, then. Then I think it does require, like, looking really curiously at that text and that. At that moment of. Of. Of rejoicing and trying to place it in a more studied context.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

So with that, I'll read our definition of revenge, and then I'll read the

[Sarah Sabie]

end of the story.

[Josh Sabie]

Okay. We wrote revenge.

[Sarah Sabie]

A definition. Revenge is impossible. So don't try. It deepens grief. It extends tragedy. It multiplies suffering, because it is like hunting a dragon. You can hunt and hunt all you want, but dragons don't exist. And neither does revenge. In trying to kill a dragon, you might stub your own toe or spear a perfectly innocent horse. And so the family of Jacob's revenge almost undid Moses entire escape plan.

[Josh Sabie]

Then we go into talk about what

[Sarah Sabie]

Josh just mentioned, about how they had

[Josh Sabie]

to cross the Red Sea in order to get away.

[Sarah Sabie]

And who knows what would have happened if they had never sought revenge, if they had mourned with the Egyptians or just left quietly. Maybe nothing would have changed, but maybe

[Josh Sabie]

everything would be different.

[Sarah Sabie]

Maybe the army of Egypt would never have come after them. Maybe they wouldn't have crossed the sea. Maybe there was an easier path. Who knows? But for now, they were stuck in the desert. And in the desert, they would learn that God had not come to give them revenge at all, but a law. Because revenge was not real. But the law was the realest thing

[Josh Sabie]

that they would ever know.

[Sarah Sabie]

And the law would be written on stones. It was just a seed of the law at first, but it would grow from the earth like wheat grass and corn, and the harvest would fill baskets and bellies and hearts. It would end the cycle of hurt and hurting instead of payback. It would bring peace. Instead of revenge. It would bring healing. And the people would learn to counter meanness with generosity and hate with love. And someday, the people of Egypt would follow the family of Jacob again. But this time they would not find an enemy, but a friend. And they will remember the blood in the Nile and weep for the lost children. And they will sing together not a song of rejoicing in the death of another horse and rider, but a new song for all that was lost and wasted. And then there will be peace. And then they will know God and live his law, the law of God, the law of love.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

That's beautiful. Thank you so much. That's another really good example. It's like the lighting changes on the story and you just, you. It's all. It's all still there, but it's just ideas that I've never considered and that just resonate on a. In a different way.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah. I think part of the, like, the delight of writing these books has been reconsidering the stories about the story, where I think there's like, the story itself and then there's these stories that we tell about the story, and they're not. They're not the same thing. And learning to. To let the first go in order to re. Re approach the original is.

[Sarah Sabie]

Is.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

I don't know, playful, but. But also meaningful.

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

If I could, yeah. Interject a question here. I. It strikes me, I mean, you said, Josh, that this is for families, you know, and adults could enjoy these. I almost wonder, though, if you guys are being a little bit sneaky and this is like 9010 for adults, because, like, I think I have come sort of like full circle with my, you know, scripture study and understanding what resonates with me where this is the type of thing that resonates with me. You know, it's like searching for God, searching for who God is through these stories. And I don't find anything in these. In these books where I'm like, oh, that's a little basic. You know, like, the basics are the things that resonate. And so I guess the question is, when you get feedback on these things, is it mostly feedback? Oh, this is really resonating with my kids. Or is it like, wow, this has been really meaningful because I think, I will say. I will say Aubry is slipping into this language where it's like, wow, that is so resonant. We're like, we're not talking about kids here. What do you. I'm curious how this works.

[Sarah Sabie]

I mean, I think for sure, we

[Josh Sabie]

hear from a lot of people that, like, you should make an adult version so that you don't have to look like I'm carrying around a picture book.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Oh, I see. I see.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah, I think for sure adults really love it. I think also, though, it is hard to break out of this long standing tradition of scripture study being this, like, solo scholarly pursuit. We've had people who. There's a story of somebody who really loved the book and she read part of the Book of Mormon storybook, and she read part of it in her Sunday school class. And Somebody responded like, this isn't story time, you know, And. And so I think there is still this. This.

[Sarah Sabie]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

I think just to me, it feels like a misapprehension of what scripture study is in its totality.

And I think by making it for kids. Right. It gives us permission to do some things that would be hard to do if it was for adults. Right.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

Makes sense. So, I mean, just like Chronicles of Narnia or any of these children's books that aren't really children's books, you know, they are, but aren't, we're kind of entering that same arena where by having it for kids, we can be maybe a little more sentimental, but in the best way. Right.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

It gives us permission to do what we want to do anyways.

Yeah.

Which is really focus on the beautiful aspects of the stories.

Yeah. And just. I mean, these children's authors that I really admire, C.S. lewis and E.B. white, like, they all talk about the importance of really respecting children because they care about the things that actually matter, you know, and C.S. lewis's great quote is, any. Any children's story that is written only for children is not a good children's story. Yeah. And I feel like that's sort of our anthem.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

I teach the 13 year old right now. And what I've learned is that sometimes it's so extremely challenging because I feel like what it requires of you as a teacher is to sort of boil down what you're trying to say into one sentence. Like you get one to say that week and everything else is going to be a little bit of chaos. And sometimes I can't find the one thing like, what do I really believe about this story? I feel like that's what this book is. It's like. It's like helping me strengthen that muscle a little bit. I got really into the. Like, now it feels a little bit like weeds. I think it was an important part of my. Of. I think it was an important season to just To. To care about the history and the context of the history and the language and. But I just feel like what feels so nourishing now is the story. And so the playful parts about this book and like the little anachronisms like you did in the Book of Mormon storybook too. It's sort of just like this constant reminder not to miss the point. Like, the point is this wisdom of love and the other things are all in service. They're all going to be in service of that. And so that's why it's been Helpful, I think, to have to have these, like, childlike details because it makes it impossible to get too serious about the things that, for me, right now, have really been distractions.

[Josh Sabie]

I love that.

That's. That's so beautiful. Oh, sorry.

Well, I was. I love that. It's a story about history, right? It's a story. It's condensed history into a story, like Adam and Eve. It's hard to call that history, but it is a story. It is a history. Right. It's a history of a people that we accept as our history in some way. And so just, like, just the reminders of that. Yeah, I think it's really helpful.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Even when you. When you're reading Jonah, it felt for a minute like you were going to avoid the whale swallowing him. You know, it's like, is this the Christopher Nolan version of this story where it's deeply rooted in realism, you know, and it's like, oh, Batman could actually happen, you know? But it's like, no, it's. You guys are. You're fully embracing the story as a story, which I think is. Yeah, it's jarring in a good way.

[Josh Sabie]

Jonah's a great example. We have a great. Probably my favorite anachronism. We skipped the whole beginning of Jonah because there's. There's a whole part of Jonah that isn't in Jonah. It's in other stories of him trying to be a prophet and, like, giving false prophecies, you know, trying to say you're going to win the battle, but then they lose. And Amos is like, you're actually going to lose, and they lose. So sort of he's. He's, like, trying to become this prophet that's going to preach that, you know, Israelites are going to win. You know, that's what he really wants to be.

And you see prophet school and then, like, sets up a shop with a little front page and he prints business cards.

It says for insightful, accurate prophecies called Jonah something. Something like that. There's a business card that's, like, just so obviously anachronistic, but just reminds you.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Can I ask you about Adam and Eve? Because this was another one of my very favorites for the way that it just. It brings out a detail of the story that I really loved and that I. That often gets sidelined. And that's like the fruit itself. So I'd love to just hear how you decided to emphasize this as opposed to just, like, the, you know, the timeline and who's guilty of what. And, like, that was kind of beside the Point.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah. I mean, so. So the first several stories did. They felt like a minefield.

[Sarah Sabie]

Right.

[Josh Sabie]

Like, you're talking about creation, you're doing the fall, and there's just lots of, like, people feel. Have strong doctrinal feelings on all of those. And. And you. It feels treacherous waters to cross, you know? Um, and so, particularly when we were. When we were dealing with Eve, it's like, I think the way you portray her, people will have strong feelings on. No matter what you do. Um, and so I think we. We did a little bit of a dodge in that, where we were like. And who knows why? Like, maybe it was brave. Maybe it was. Maybe she was misled.

[Sarah Sabie]

Maybe she had been tricked.

[Josh Sabie]

Maybe she was being intentionally disobedient. There's a lot of ways to read this story, but we do know that it was really brave to live life, to keep partaking of this thing that we call life that's so full of so many things, beautiful things and hard things and joy and children and death and murder.

[Sarah Sabie]

All of that's here in this fruit.

[Josh Sabie]

And it's an acquired taste, but we come back every day and we partake again. And. And that's brave, you know, and that's. That's a meaningful.

[Sarah Sabie]

Meaningful, brave thing to do.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah. I just love the depiction of the fruit as. What do you call it? Like, spicy, like jalapenos and, like.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

You know, vinegary.

All of these adult flavors.

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

And.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah. And yet delicious. And you have to learn to eat it and, you know, say, this fruit is delicious and take another bite. That's our daily. That's our daily bread.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

I just love that my. My sister and I have been talking a lot about this idea that what you carve out with your sorrow and pain holds your joy. And it felt like all of a sudden that wisdom was in the story that there is this. This real bitter sweetness to our lives. That is part of what makes it so rich and beautiful and scary. And. And I just. I love that that's in Adam. In Adam and Eve's story, and has just not really been a part of that wisdom for me yet. So that was. That was really one of my favorites.

[Josh Sabie]

And death. Right. Death animates life in a dramatic way. And that's right there in the text.

Right.

This idea of introducing death.

[Aubrey Chavez]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

And suddenly opening up all of the. This possibility for life. Yeah. And, like, the connections, it's. It's a pretty profound story that's existed for a long time that captures that in a way that, like, how death and life Are and joy and sorrow and right and wrong. Even right, the choice itself is a combination of right and wrong. Right and, like, the way these are all mixed up and not clean. And oftentimes we'd like things to be clean, but in this life, they're not that clean.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah. Okay, so you have to talk about Cain now. What's the title for this chapter? It's like Cain the Perfectionist, or Cain the First Perfectionist.

[Josh Sabie]

Was a perfectionist. Something like that.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah, I think that was the first one that I read because that title, I was like, what?

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah, well, okay. So we were definitely inspired by east of Eden, which is one of my favorite books. I won't speak for you. One of my favorite books.

We named a child.

We named one of our kids after. After a character in east of Eden. And it definitely is a retelling of the. Of the story of Cain and Abel. It talks about the story a lot. The Tim Shull Thou Mayest is like the big, I think, centerpiece of that book. And certainly I think the culminating insight of that book is that when you're trying to be perfect, it's a lot harder to be good. Perfect is the enemy of good is, I think, like a saying. And so we knew we wanted to work that in just because it's such a meaningful text in our lives. But it was actually surprising when we were reading the original story

[Sarah Sabie]

how well,

[Josh Sabie]

I think some of the insights of east of Eden really did fit in the source text itself. You know, when Cain has, like, this big sort of showdown. So it starts with this newly fallen family, freshly fallen from the garden. And Cain tries to remake the garden, right? Like, sets up a garden, tries to plant a new garden.

We can step in here for a second. Like, he doesn't want to participate in this sacrifice, which is animal sacrifices, bloody killing, and, you know, sort of admittance of sin and needing something, right? It's like, so need to say sorry, need to rely on death, need to kill. He doesn't want that. He wants to be like, we can keep the garden even in this earth.

Yeah. All of these really visceral realities of a fallen world. He tries to. He tries to shield himself from or to be better than, you know, and then they have this competition, and God accepts the animal and not the cornucopia that Cain presents. And Cain is devastated. And in the Bible, God comes to Cain and it says something like, don't,

[Sarah Sabie]

you know, if you just present a

[Josh Sabie]

good offering and that's enough, you'll be accepted? And I feel in that response, like, what I'm telling. What I'm telling my own, like, beautiful and ambitious boy who's like, so desirous to always be right. You know, like, you know, when you're. When you try. When you're trying to be perfect, you're not going to be able to be good. When you're trying to get everything right, you're not going to get anything right. You're going to miss everything anyway, so I think it. I think east of Eden certainly colored our approach to the story, but I think also felt really present in that story of this boy who didn't want to be fallen, who wanted to exist outside of the fallen world, and who couldn't come to terms with it.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

And in the end, his attempts at perfection lead him down very dark path to being the first death and the first murder all in one. And then there's a really graceful ending to that story. I think that we often don't read that way, which is he. They let him live. Right. So they don't hunt Cain down. We have to read that as a punishment. But the story is, you know, Cain assumes he's going to be killed. Like God's going to kill him or his family's going to come kill him. And so he kind of runs away, but no one hunts him down. Yeah. You know, instead they let him live. And why do they let him live? Because there's already so much death and dying in the world. Right. And it's like, no, we don't need to add to the. To the fallenness. We don't need. We don't need to kill Cain. And so they let him live.

[Aubrey Chavez]

Do you.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Do either of you have a favorite, favorite story?

[Josh Sabie]

I really love they that Be with us, the story of Elijah and the angels, just because I think it's a story that most people know, but at least I certainly didn't know the end of it in this first text. And it was such a shock in such a, like the sort of moment where, like when you read to the end of the chapter, it reframes the entire rest of the chapter.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah. Will you give. This is maybe familiar to people because we gave everybody a sneak peek months ago. But will you sort of refresh memories or. For people who.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah, absolutely. So the famous story is that the armies of Syria are coming to attack Elijah because he's always informing the people of Samaria. Right. He's the northern kingdom people of Samaria, like, where their armies are going to be. So they're always foiling their plans. So they're going to come and take out Elijah himself so that they can't keep attacking them anyway.

Is Elijah or Elisha Elijah?

No, this is Elisha.

I think it's Elisha.

It's Elisha. Okay, I trust you. But it's Elisha anyway. And he's like, the army's coming to attack him. And his servant sees them, and he freaks out, runs and talks to Elisha, and he's like, they're coming. And he's like, oh, that's okay. And his servant's like, what? What do you mean? And he says, you know, like, God bless him open to open his eyes to see. And he sees all of these angels behind them, and he says, say that be with us. Or more than they. That be with them. And that's, like, I think for most of us, where the story ends, right? And you can imagine, like, the. The green guy army in Lord of the Rings coming out and like, obliterating all of the bad people. And. And that's probably how it's going to end, but it's not what happens. Instead, the attacking army is blinded.

[Sarah Sabie]

They can't see anything.

[Josh Sabie]

And so Elisha leads them right into the middle of Samaria, the capital city, where they. And then they close the gates behind them. And so they're trapped and surrounded, and they are unblinded. They're given their sight back. And the king is like, okay, so do we kill them now? And Elisha says, no, you feed them. And so Elisha says that they could give them bread and water, but instead the king lays out this feast of great provisions, it says, and the armies eat together, and they commute together, and then they go home, and they never attack the kingdom of Israel again. And it's this amazing, I think, moment of peacemaking, of real peacemaking, where it's not just like, you know, good people winning because they're good, but it's like

[Sarah Sabie]

responding with goodness in order to bring

[Josh Sabie]

more goodness into the world.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

And the blindness detail like that seems. I don't know why we don't tell that part of the story. It feels. It just feels so resonant in our lives now for thinking of enemies as some amount of blindness or ourselves with some amount of blindness, it just feels like it cools the temperature down so quickly. Instead of being about our badness, it's the thing we can't see, right?

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah. And nobody in that story saw totally clearly besides Elisha, who is the one who says, come feed them.

And I think it brings new meaning to the to the phrase, they that be with us are more than they be with them. Right. Yeah. Because it's like, wait, who is us? It's. It's.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

It.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

Restructures that thing. Wait, maybe them. Right. Is actually part. Maybe they're with us. Right. And like, maybe. Maybe in another. Maybe it's not just the angels we need to be seeing, but the army, too, as part of us.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Wow. Yeah.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Do you want to talk about. I think we need to talk about the art again. Would you talk about.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Maddie and her work in these volumes?

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah, absolutely. So Maddie was the illustrator again. She did the Book of Mormon storybook. And when we approached her, she said, okay, I'm not gonna do collage.

[Sarah Sabie]

Wow.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Just too time consuming or.

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah, I mean, I think there are several reasons.

We also wanted to push it. We wanted to push it.

We wanted to push it.

[Sarah Sabie]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

And so I was super open. We were super open to it. And, you know, she just came up with, like, I think, the pinkest, but also just the most mythological looking. I really like the pinks, I think, because it makes it feel more.

[Sarah Sabie]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

Mythological. Older stories. I don't know. But lots of pinks and reds all hand painted.

Some amazing pictures.

Yeah. Totally astounding pictures.

I feel like you should show the back of. I love the.

Oh, yeah, this is Sarah and Isaac.

Sarah and Isaac. Such a beautiful picture. And then that's Hagar on the front cover.

Yeah.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Okay. I was so.

[Josh Sabie]

I.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

My. What I loved about this, I. The Book of Mormon storybook, to me, felt so soft. It was just like the coziest book. I like every illustration was it. It just had this softness that was so inviting. And this, to me, just felt like power. Like, it's just both covers just. Just so bold and powerful and.

[Josh Sabie]

And.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

And in some ways, that feels like more of a reflection. Like, it feels like the Old Testament stories are just. They're like, bigger and bolder and more like. Everything about this project feels more intense. And the stories themselves have that same, like, familiar thoughtfulness and softness there. But I loved the way that she depicted the wisdom that.

[Josh Sabie]

I love that Hagar is a story cover. And Hagar in this really empowered.

Yeah.

[Sarah Sabie]

Stance.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

She's in, like, this. Well, for people who are just listening, she's like, hands up to heaven. Glowing. Glowing golden light. And in this skirt full of energy. Dress.

[Sarah Sabie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

And I think part of what I love so much about it is just the. I think a lot of the Old Testament. Shockingly to me, as I was reading through it this time, I think without a lot of the apprehension that I would normally approach the text with. So much of the Old Testament is about bringing justice to the poor. Justice in the sense of, like, creating a world that is just where justice grows out of the ground, you know, and taking the poor of the earth, the disinherited, and bringing them to the

[Sarah Sabie]

right hand of God.

[Josh Sabie]

And I think, yeah, having Hagar is this disinherited slave who was, I think, used as property in every conceivable way as this really empowered cover image.

[Sarah Sabie]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

Really? Right.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

I also love that it matches the imminence of the text.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Right.

[Josh Sabie]

They don't talk about heaven and hell in the Old Testament. It's not there. It may be like slightly in Daniel for a few verses, but justice is about an army is going to come in tomorrow. Right. Justice is going to happen here. This city is going to be conquered. Justice is about taking care of the poor. It's not about going to heaven. Like, it's an imminent text. Everything is right there. It's like armies are at the door.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah.

[Josh Sabie]

And so the. The whole text is so present and justice is so in your face, you know, it's not. It's not about heaven, hell that comes in the New Testament. Jesus is always talking about heaven and hell, but the Old Testament, they're not talking about that.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

So true.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

So I know we've got to wrap up. Wrap up here, but I want to ask sort of a meta question about this for you guys in particular, because I see you two as such prolific creators. It's like, really just amazing, all the things that you're doing. And not only are you prolific, like, this is a just like a profoundly beautiful object. Like, I, like, I. You see it and you just, like, want to hold it in your hands and you want to flip through it. And as an aspiring creator myself, I'm like, if I had this one thing as my legacy, I'd be like, done.

[Josh Sabie]

You know?

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

So I. Would you give a few words of wisdom or advice maybe to aspiring creators who want to. Who want to do something beautiful like this in any medium?

[Josh Sabie]

Yeah. I mean, I think this whole. This whole, like, all of our books began with this dream of, like, Josh, I think we should write children's stories for kids, and I think we should do it in, like, a charming, pretty way. And I think Josh is really great at just being like, okay, let's do it. Let's start writing.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Wow.

[Josh Sabie]

And I think what's. I think, honestly, the whole way Four Little Saints came To be is just. Is just by going for it. And that doesn't always work out. You know, like, there's been lots of things that we've gone for that have been catastrophic failures.

Maybe not catastrophic, but not gone anywhere.

Died in a whimper. But I think if, you know, if your heart is in something, you can spend a lot of time planning, and that's probably valuable. And you can also start writing.

Yeah. I would say we made this in about a year, and it was. It was about one, maybe four hours each a week. So eight hours a week of work, you know, and you have to just do that every week. That's a lot of hours. Um. Cause we have a lot of other things, so this isn't, like, our only focus. So we spent. Yeah, probably about four hours each a week on. On it, and that's. Takes about a year to get that done. So I don't know. I think little bits at a time just keep chipping away. And then I do think perfectionism actually does come up in this where, you know, we never have time to get everything perfect. You know, like, there's spelling errors in the Book of Mormon, particularly. And I'm always, like, super sad. But you also just have to push forward, Right? Like, yeah, I wish this cover was just, like, the slightest bit brighter, but you just have to, like, let that. Let that go and, you know, just keep pushing forward.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

I don't know.

[Josh Sabie]

That's. Yeah.

Because I could all. You could always get hung up on it not being. Yeah, exactly how you want it, but, yeah, totally.

[Host 2 (Faith Matters)]

It's really inspiring.

[Sarah Sabie]

Thank you.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Thank you so much. It's been. And in. On a personal level, it has just. It's been such an anchor for me. I. I think I just needed a new flavor to make scripture feel alive and nourishing, and this has been such an avenue for that. So I am really grateful and so excited to. For everybody to get to experience that with the Old Testament. It totally reinvigorated me about this coming year. Thank you both so much. Just a gish.

[Aubrey Chavez]

All right.

[Host 1 (Faith Matters)]

Thanks so much for listening.

[Aubrey Chavez]

We really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Sarah and Josh Sa. We are also so excited to announce that we have partnered with them to make half of the stories in the audiobook available to everyone as a podcast to listen to with your kids in the car or as part of your Old Testament study. This year, you can find it wherever you listen to podcasts, just search for little saints. Also, the full audiobook is available as a private podcast for all friends of Faith. Matters. Thank you so much for your generosity making this collaboration possible. You can send us an [e-mail] or check out the website for help downloading it. The hard copies are also absolutely stunning. They're clothbound, beautifully illustrated, and Those are available@4little saints.com thanks again for listening.