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Finding Nourishment in the Old Testament, with Sarah and Josh Sabey

Faith Matters

Sun Jan 04 2026

Summary

Faith Matters Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode: Finding Nourishment in the Old Testament, with Sarah and Josh Sabey

Date: January 4, 2026
Host: Faith Matters Foundation
Guests: Sarah and Josh Sabey

Overview

In this thoughtful and expansive episode, Faith Matters welcomes back writers and filmmakers Sarah and Josh Sabey to discuss their latest project, The Bible Storybook, a two-volume retelling of 50 Old Testament stories. Eschewing scholarly analysis and doctrinal rigidity, Sarah and Josh offer a “heart-first” approach, exploring the complex, contradictory, and deeply human experiences of figures in the Old Testament. With a focus on storytelling for both families and adults, their reimagined tellings invite listeners to find contemporary relevance, emotional depth, and enduring wisdom—even in the Bible's most challenging passages.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power of Story Over Scholarship

Storytelling as Sacred Practice
- Josh Sabey reflects on how modern scripture study can become “a really cerebral act” focused on etymologies and doctrine, missing the way stories move hearts—especially in children and those longing for spiritual reconnection.
  
  “I think it’s actually a little bit to our detriment as adults that we’ve deprived story time as sacred time... What we feel and the stories we tell actually matter quite a lot.” (03:43 – 04:23)
- Sarah and Josh position their retellings as experiences in themselves, not as vehicles for moralizing or scholarly decoding.

Approaching Old Stories Afresh

A Loyalty to the Story
- Their main commitment is to the integrity and beauty of each story itself, rather than doctrine or historicity.
- Stories are presented matter-of-factly, even with problematic elements (e.g., polygamy, flawed portrayals of God), without imposing a modern moral lens.
  
  “Our main loyalty is to just tell the story that’s there… We try to be true to telling a story that’s there and a possibility of that story.” (15:34 – 16:41)
- Rather than smoothing out discomforts or reframing narratives to fit modern sensibilities, the Sabeys lean into the messiness, viewing the tension as spiritually fruitful.

Wrestling with Difficult Texts

Jonah’s Story — A Portrait of Rage, Rescue, and Reluctant Grace
- The Sabeys present a reading of Jonah that centers on his anger, sense of injustice, and difficulty accepting God’s boundless mercy.
  
  "God had come for Jonah not to punish him, but to save him and put him to work. And Jonah knew he didn’t deserve it. And if he didn’t deserve it, neither did the Assyrians." (09:41 – 10:09)
- Their retelling concludes with an encouragement for the listener to be “a bush,” a fleeting source of shade or comfort, trusting that “God is sending a whale to save you” in your own tumult.
The Exodus — Revenge and Its Costs
- Josh breaks down how the narrative of revenge runs through the Exodus, drawing attention to often-overlooked details: Joseph’s enslavement of the Egyptians, reciprocal cycles of violence, and the hollow victory of retributive justice.
  
  “Revenge is impossible. So don’t try. It deepens grief. It extends tragedy. It multiplies suffering, because it is like hunting a dragon. You can hunt and hunt all you want, but dragons don’t exist. And neither does revenge.” (31:07 – 31:39)
- The ultimate movement, they suggest, is from revenge to a new, nourishing law:
  
  "In the desert, they would learn that God had not come to give them revenge at all, but a law. Because revenge was not real. But the law was... It would end the cycle of hurt and hurting—instead of payback, it would bring peace." (32:12 – 33:07)

Embracing Ambiguity in Scripture

The Sabeys emphasize that the Bible—and people’s perceptions of God—are plural, complex, and often inconsistent:

“The Bible attributes a lot of actions to God, and it’s hard to tell, did God do this, or is this someone trying to understand why this happened? …We focus on that grappling of people humanly trying to understand how God fits in this world.” (20:37 – 21:11)
They encourage readers to become “part of the process,” finding inspiration in the tension and mystery, rather than feeling alienated by contradictions.

Children’s Literature That Nourishes Everyone

Although the books are marketed for families and children, adults find them deeply resonant.
The approach allows for “more sentimentality, but in the best way,” reminiscent of C.S. Lewis and E.B. White’s best work for young readers.

“Any children’s story that is written only for children is not a good children’s story. Yeah. And I feel like that’s sort of our anthem.” (36:03 – 36:26)

Notable Story-specific Insights

Adam & Eve
- The story foregrounds the bravery of living with knowledge of sorrow and joy—likening the fruit to “spicy, vinegary, adult flavors” (40:48 – 41:00)—not just as origin of guilt, but the richness and risk of real life.
Cain the Perfectionist
- Inspired by Steinbeck’s East of Eden, they depict Cain as a tragic perfectionist—a child who wants to exist "outside the fallen world," whose striving for perfection prevents simple goodness and connection.
  
  “When you’re trying to be perfect, you’re not going to be able to be good. When you’re trying to get everything right, you’re not going to get anything right.” (44:39 – 45:21)
- The grace comes not in retribution, but in letting Cain live—to avoid adding more violence to the world (46:10 – 46:27).
Elisha and the Syrian Army (They That Be With Us)
- The “they that be with us” angel story resolves not in violent deliverance, but through radical peacemaking:
  
  “Instead, the attacking army is blinded... and Elisha leads them to the city, where instead of killing them, the king lays out a feast... and they commute together, and then they go home, and they never attack the kingdom of Israel again. It’s an amazing moment of peacemaking.” (47:54 – 48:47)

The Art: Visual Language as Theological Statement

The new storybook is illustrated by Maddie, featuring bold pinks, reds, and mythological themes—contrasting the “softness” of earlier works—embodying the Old Testament’s urgency, power, and focus on earthly justice.

"Hagar is this disinherited slave who was, I think, used as property in every conceivable way as this really empowered cover image." (52:09 – 52:21)
The immediacy of the art mirrors the Old Testament’s concern for justice in the here-and-now, not just the afterlife.

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Story vs. Scholarship:

“My profound experience with the Atonement has always been the telling of the Atonement... not some explanation about it. That’s a real tragedy when we think our job in reading is to somehow get past the text, when so much of the meaning is unsubtractable.” — Josh (06:01 – 06:45)
On Embracing the Mess:

“The Bible’s kind of wily… the stories are often hard to tie down… and that happens a lot, where something surprising happens in the story where it doesn’t fit.” — Josh (24:36 – 24:52)
On Difficulty, Discomfort, and Growth:

“The complexity and even the discomfort of the Old Testament can become fertile ground for a deeper, more expansive faith.” — Aubrey Chavez (01:24 – 01:37)
On Revenge and Healing:

“Revenge is impossible. So don’t try. It deepens grief. It extends tragedy. It multiplies suffering, because it is like hunting a dragon. You can hunt and hunt all you want, but dragons don’t exist. And neither does revenge.” — Sarah (31:11 – 31:39)
On Writing and Creativity:

“If your heart is in something, you can spend a lot of time planning…and you can also start writing… Little bits at a time just keep chipping away.” — Sarah & Josh (53:47 – 55:37)
On Adam and Eve’s Fruit:

“The fruit is delicious and you have to learn to eat it… that’s our daily bread.” — Josh (40:58 – 41:12)
On Cain’s Perfectionism:

“When you’re trying to be perfect, you’re not going to be able to be good… you’re going to miss everything.” — Josh (44:39 – 45:21)

Timestamps for Key Segments

Introduction & Project Overview — 00:00–02:47
Why Storytelling Matters — 02:47–06:45
Retelling Jonah’s Story Excerpt — 06:45–13:42
Approach to Difficult Passages and Moral Frameworks — 13:42–18:57
Portrayal of God & Human Views in the Text — 18:57–21:11
Death of the Author/Authorial Intent & Possibilities in Meaning — 21:11–23:18
Themes of Nationalism & Narratives that Undermine Themselves — 23:18–26:19
Exodus and Revenge—A Fresh Retelling — 26:19–33:07
Discussion on Adult vs. Children Audience — 33:46–36:26
Adam & Eve—The Wisdom of the Fruit — 39:11–41:12
Cain—The Perfectionist — 42:16–46:27
Elisha and Peacemaking — 46:15–49:33
On Art and Visual Power — 49:35–53:06
Final Reflections and Wisdom for Creators — 53:08–55:43

Conclusion

Through artful, compassionate, and sometimes playful storytelling, Sarah and Josh Sabey invite listeners and readers to rediscover the Old Testament as a living source of wisdom, complexity, and hope. Their approach, unconstrained by doctrinal demands or over-literalism, honors the heart and humanity of biblical figures—and our own journeys of faith and doubt. Their advice to aspiring creators: “just start,” embrace imperfection, and trust the story.

For more, find “Little Saints” wherever you listen to podcasts, and the Bible Storybook at 4littlesaints.com. The full audiobook is available to Friends of Faith Matters.

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Transcript

Aubrey Chavez (0:00)

Wayfair issue 7 is almost ready to print and we can't wait for you to read it. It's all about the concept of trust. Trust in God, in ourselves and in our communities. And it centers women's wisdom and experience with trust, especially the trust in our individual relationship with heavenly parents that allow each of us to act with power and integrity in our own lives. Become a friend of Faith Matters or become a paid subscriber to wayfair magazine by March 31st to receive this beautiful issue in the mail. Links are in the show Notes hey everybody, this is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. Today we're sharing a conversation with writers and filmmakers Sarah and Josh Sabie about their new project, the Bible Storybook, which is a two volume collection of 50 stories from the Old Testament. You might remember their Book of Mormon Storybook. And like those earlier volumes, this new project is guided by a simple and beautiful idea that these are stories about a real God who loves real people. People who are complicated, wounded and doing their best to understand how God is working in their lives. For many of us, the Old Testament can troubling, full of contradictions, harsh laws, and stories that might not always align with the God that we've come to know through Jesus. So if the thought of spending a whole year studying this text feels daunting, this episode is especially for you. Sarah and Josh offer a powerful way back into these familiar stories through a fresh and deeply thoughtful lens. While staying fully anchored in the text, they invite us to see the people and events in new and meaningful ways. Their storytelling will invite you to consider what the Exodus story teaches us about revenge and healing. And what if Cain was actually the first perfectionist undone by his impossible expectations? And what can Jonah reveal about our own gifts and heartbreak? Their retellings don't avoid what's difficult. They honor the tension again and again. They show how the complexity and even the discomfort of the Old Testament can become fertile ground for a deeper, more expansive faith. We hope that this episode leaves you feeling so excited to dive into this text again, to rediscover the Old Testament as a living well of wisdom, beauty, and a God who still meets us in the mess. And with that, here's our conversation with Sarah and Josh Sabie

Host 1 (Faith Matters) (2:02)

all right, we'll see. Sarah and Josh, we're so excited to have you guys back. Thanks so much for being here and for bringing us another gift of a book. We're just so thrilled that this book was finished in time for our Old Testament year and you bring so much heart and just Such a thoughtfulness while really preserving the bones of the story. And it's just such. It's really such a gift. Um, what I want to ask you right off the bat, before we get into any of the actual stories, you say in the forward that you're. You're really thinking about storytelling and. And telling stories beautif beautifully, as opposed to scholarship and defining, you know, Hebrew words and. And so I'd love for you to just talk about your approach and why you feel like that matters and why it works.

Sarah Sabie (10:54)

done to so many other people from the family of Jacob. Jonah wouldn't run. He'd be glad to die now, knowing the empire was about to be destroyed. Because if they didn't repent, God would finally send a storm or lightning or a meteor to finish them off. And Jonah would have fulfilled his life's goal. And so Jonah fell asleep, exhausted by his preaching and anger and hope and desperation. And God saw Jonah sleeping and he was proud of Jonah. Because for just a moment, Jonah had managed to push down his hate. He'd preached a message of hope and forgiveness to his enemies. He'd worked hard and now he was sound asleep, the sun beating against his face, causing it to burn. So God grew a small bush to give Jonah shade. And when Jonah woke, he sat in the shade and watched as his dream fell apart. The Assyrians were repenting. Was it possible? They were not going to kill or torture or sin anymore and God was going to bless them for their decision to be good. And Jonah watched, not realizing that he'd done it. He toppled the empire from within, not with armies or lightning, but with forgiveness and redemption. But Jonah couldn't see the miracle. He felt no joy or sense of accomplishment. The bush covering Jonah withered and died. And he was left in the harsh sunlight. So he yelled at God, how could you? How dare you take that shade away from me? But God knew Jonah was saying a lot more than that. He wasn't really talking about a bush. He was asking some really big, hard to answer questions like, how could you forgive the Assyrians after what they've done to my people? If you were going to save them, why did it have to be through me? And Jonah wept, not understanding. He was just floating on the surface of God's big plans. His imagination could not stretch as big or as wide as God's imagination. And his love was not as big or as strong as God's love. And his forgiveness was not as deep or as pure as God's forgiveness. Jonah was no whale. He could not live in the ocean or plumb the mysterious depths. If anything, he was a temporary bush that provided shade for a moment and then was gone. And perhaps that is all any of us can be. But don't forget that while a bush is no whale, it was also a gift from God. And so if you can, even for just a moment, be a bush, be like Jonah, give shade when you can, as long as you can. And if you get lost or feel yourself treading the infinite depths in fear you might sink, please know that God is sending a whale to save you. And it is big enough to swallow you whole.

Josh Sabie (27:25)

He's the mastermind of it. And he pretty much enslaves all of Egypt to. As he feeds them. And he's a hero, right? At this point, he's giving them food and he's a hero. And they welcome his family when they come down. And. But then, you know, attitudes change. You know, as the famine's over and he's no longer seen as a hero or something changes. There's a new pharaoh and a new feeling in the air, right? People, it seems likely, are bitter that they've sold all of their stuff, they've lost their liberties because of Joseph, and now they're slaves to their own pharaoh. And so what do they do is sort of predictable. They enslave the family of Joseph, right? They enslave the family of Jacob and they become slaves. So that's how this whole thing starts. And then they're slaves. And we know the Exodus story, but, you know, there's the. There's the whole plagues. All the plagues happen. And then you Know the. The last, final, terrible plague where all the firstborn of the Egyptians die. Just sort of reminiscent of what the pharaoh had done to, you know, the Israelites, where he had killed all the males. It was the firstborn males. He killed any male that was born. They were thrown into the Nile. And so you have this sort of like revenge narrative there where firstborns die and all the Egyptians are terrified. And then the. The fam of Jacob is what we call them. They go and take all their stuff before they. They. So the Exodus doesn't start right away. First they go and take all the gold and cattle from the Egyptians and then leave. And the Egyptians get handed over because they're all terrified that, you know, God's going to kill them because they just killed all their firstborn. And so they go. They go off. And then there's. This is another thing I had never really noticed before. Like, there's no reason to believe that they had to go across the Red Sea. That that was the plan. Right. Except for that they took all the Egyptian stuff and a few days later they're upset and so they go chasing after them and. And then God has to save them by sending them across the Red Sea. And they're stuck in the wilderness for a long time. So maybe that was a detour. We don't know. But if they had not gone, if they had not. If they had not seen it as this, like, God has helped us revenge, we're going to take all of our gold. And if. If they had had a different narrative, maybe they never would have had to cross the Red Sea. Maybe would have been a very different narrative. We don't know. But. But it's just this. And then when they get across the Red Sea and the sea topples on top of the Egyptians, you know, there's a. The oldest text probably in the Bible, the Song of Miriam is all about rejoicing and the destruction of these people and then what happened and the salvation right of. Of the family Jacob. But then they're stranded and thousands of people die and all their cattle died that they stole. And so just it's this. The story of revenge and that ultimately we should read the end of that where it talks about.