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- [00:00]
A
Hi, this is Sarah Perkins Sabie, one of the authors of the Bible Storybook. We're so excited to have partnered with Faith Matters to bring you beautifully told Scripture stories as a podcast that you can listen to with your kids and share with your friends and family. We're making half of the stories available completely free is a podcast called Scripture Stories for Little Saints, and the other half are available to donors and friends of Faith Matters as a thank you for your financial support that makes this collaboration possible. If you have trouble accessing them, you can email faith matters@infoaithmatters.org and they'll be happy to help. Thank you so much for your generous and ongoing support. We're so excited to share these stories with you and can't wait for you to hear them. Now on to the podcast. Hey everybody, this is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. We've probably all heard it called a sifting now and then, this language that sometimes surfaces when someone is struggling or steps away from the church. Wheat and tares and sheep and goats, a sorting in the last days that reveals the truly elect. But today, our good friend and contributor Jeff Strong is back to invite us into a deeper reflection on this idea and what he sees as the more essential question who is the church for? Jeff shares how the way we answer that question has real implications, shaping how we respond to difference and how we create or close off spaces for spiritual growth, belonging and trust. In this conversation he also brings some new and fascinating findings from his large scale survey of Latter Day Saints. He introduces a framework of spiritual segments that emerge from this data types he's named seekers, protectors, cultivators, and more. And while it's really fun to see yourself in one of these groups, what's maybe even more powerful is to recognize how others might experience the same church culture in radically different ways. He reflects on the tension that people feel when their deepest values don't seem to match what's emphasized in their church experience. And he offers a way through that tension. He says, wherever you fit. We each face the challenge to let go of fear, because fear, more than anything else, is what's driving us apart from Ultimately, this conversation isn't about disaffiliation or activity. It's about relationships and culture. It's about how we respond to differences and hold tension as a community and whether we're building a church culture that reflects the expansive, welcoming love of Christ. Also, just a heads up, the story that Jeff tells near the end of the episode may sound familiar. Sister Dennis actually used this in her conference talk this year. But we recorded this episode before conference, which is why we didn't make that connection at the time. Also, there are some really interesting graphs and charts that Jeff mentions, and those are available in the YouTube version of this conversation Conversation, if you'd rather watch. Or you can just search the episode on faithmatters.org and see them there. And now here's our conversation with Jeff Strong. All right. Well, Jeff, welcome back. We're glad to have you. We had such an interesting conversation last time and, and we're really excited to dive back into the data and kind of finish the conversation where we left off. So maybe give us a snapshot for those who haven't heard the episode. Or as a reminder, we talked about the tension, the, that a lot of people feel with this tug of war between tradition and change in the church. And we're going to talk about a different tension, but just remind us about the survey and what we talked about last time.
- [03:08]
B
Yeah, absolutely. First of all, it's so fun to be back, so thank you for the invitation and I hope we have a great conversation today. So in our last episode, your viewers would remember that we've done this big survey on disaffiliation, and we're not talking about the disaffiliation data itself yet, but in your audience, 43% feel a sense of significant conflict in their church experience. 60% don't feel a sense of belonging in their own ward or branch. And more than half, 61%, said that they're not comfortable in the culture. Another key insight was that 27% of your audience feel the church, the culture of the church is very Christ centered, but 68% said that it's only somewhat or somewhat not Christ centered. And 40% of your audience is experiencing some kind of faith transition. And so the buzzword we kind of used was tension. Right. Tension in the church community. And it's important to note that your audience is active and faithful for the most part. I think the number was 88% of the people that took the survey are active members of the church.
- [04:20]
A
Can I ask you about the, in some sort of faith transition question? Do you remember, was that defined or was that something that came from the freeform answ answers? Because I'm curious if that's about faith stages evolving or if that means their, if their activity is changing.
- [04:36]
B
Yeah, we didn't, we didn't define transition for people. We just let, we gave them that word and then we let them talk about their experiences. And so in looking at the responses Aubry. I just think it's some kind of significant change from the norm.
- [04:49]
A
Okay.
- [04:50]
C
And.
- [04:50]
B
And so, you know, it could be movement through the stages of faith. It could be stepping back from the church community a little bit. It could also be that they're stepping forward.
- [05:03]
C
Right.
- [05:04]
B
And my experience with the verbatims and the data that would suggest that they're dealing with some kind of tension or conflict.
- [05:12]
A
Yeah. So we're going to talk today about the tension that's created because we have differences. We inherently have differences in the way we understand our faith. And maybe it's a personality thing, like they're just in community. You're going to feel people with a lot of differences. And so maybe to get started, if it's okay, can you just talk about what showed up as strengths and weaknesses in our culture that are playing into this tension?
- [05:35]
B
Yeah, I'd love to. And you know, it's funny because in our. In our society, when we hear the word differences, we automatically default to physical characteristics, you know, traditional measures of diversity. And that's not what we're talking about today. We're talking about the different way people experience faith and belief in the church community, the different mindsets they have. And, you know, sometimes those things are influenced by physical characteristics, but that's not. That's not really the focal point of what we're going to discuss today. You know, I always. I think it's really important to start with strengths. And a while ago, I came across a really helpful metaphor for culture. So I'm going to share that as a way of thinking about what culture is and what it does. And so if you go back to the original etymology of the word culture, it basically means dirt or cultivation of the soil for the purpose of growing things. And so it's an incredibly applicable and. And useful metaphor. And so what is, what does dirt do for. For plants? Well, on one hand, it provides stability and protection for the roots. It holds the plant in place. On the other hand, it's. It's the place where nutrients are held so that the plants can be fed. Right. And so as we think about culture, healthy culture has to be able to do both of those things. And unhealthy culture is when one of those things gets out of balance. So, for example, if the soil becomes too hard and unyielding or compacted, the roots can't actually access the nutrients. Right. Or if this. If the soil becomes nutrient depleted, there's nothing to access. And so it's really good metaphor. Yeah, it's a great metaphor. So what are the greatest strengths of the culture? I'm going to kind of give you the headline first. And just to refresh your audience's memory, we, we surveyed 15,000 people and many of the questions were multiple choice questions. So we just, you know, it's A, B, C, D, pick your the answer that fits best. But we had a bunch of open ended questions where they just got to type their own answers. And we got over 10,000 pages of verbatim comments. And so the only these days you can analyze that, you, you can try to read all those and extract the patterns. But we developed an AI app and so we're able to analyze all those verbatims and then query the database on what people are saying. And so what I'm going to share is verbatim AI, verbatim analysis from the survey. So what are the greatest strengths of the culture? People in aggregate said being part of a loving and supportive community of believers, a heritage of serving others, spiritual strength and growing through Christ and working together towards common religious ideals and goals are the most frequently mentioned strengths. Now I don't know about you guys, but when I hear those words, I think, yeah, that's the church I love. That's, that's my church. That's the church I grew up in. And so specifically, about 55% of people cited community, belonging and support from people who share important beliefs and values. 40% said service, the commitment to help others through acts of kindness and support during times, times of need. 40% also said faith, belief in Jesus Christ, the teachings of the gospel, and personal revelation and spiritual growth. I won't read them all, but 30, 33% said unity, the collective strength and togetherness that comes from working together towards common ideals and goals. And the last one, kindness, compassion, and caring for one another and a welcoming and supportive place for all. And so to me, I, I think that those words and comments really accurately describe what, what I see is the strengths of the culture. And they're, they're awesome.
- [09:29]
C
Yeah, so it sounds like, and just to be clear on these questions, we're not asking about the institutional church. It is specific to culture.
- [09:37]
B
Yeah, we just, the question was literally what are the strengths of the culture?
- [09:41]
C
Yeah.
- [09:41]
B
And people typed whatever they wanted. Yeah, that's interesting.
- [09:43]
A
Wow.
- [09:44]
B
Yeah.
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A
Okay, so what are the weaknesses of the culture?
- [09:47]
B
The weaknesses? Well, let me give you the overall theme.
- [09:51]
A
Okay.
- [09:52]
B
And then I'm going to read the top four or five. And when I do that, I want you to look for a pattern because there's an absolutely clear Pattern in the weaknesses of the culture. And so here's what people said about the weaknesses of the culture. Judgment, conformity, exclusivity, over reliance on traditions and fear can contribute to exclusion, inhibit healthy adaptation and growth, discourage critical thinking and contribute to fear and perfectionism. Have you felt that in the culture? You know, and I. And, and I have and I've seen that and so the specifics are really interesting. So 44. Now remember, look for the pattern. 44 said judgment, evaluating and criticizing others based on perceived differences causing exclusion and lack of acceptance. 37% cited cultural norms, rigid expectations for beliefs and behaviors that can create barriers for those who are different. 32% said group think the tendency to conform and conform to the dominant viewpoint leading to a lack of diversity and critical thinking. Another 32% exclusive said exclusivity being unwelcoming to those who don't fit our traditional mold, particularly socially and culturally. And then finally tradition. 29% overreliance on customs and practices that may not align with church teachings or member needs. And so do you see a pattern? Does a pattern stick out there for you guys?
- [11:25]
C
Yeah, all seems to have to do with differences.
- [11:27]
B
Yeah, differences. And you know, of course we know we're different and so differences can't be the problem. So the problem has to be how are we responding to those differences.
- [11:39]
A
I think my honest question here that kind of scares me is like those tables almost seem inverted. You know, the weaknesses are just exact opposites of, of the strength of it. But is that because it's, that's the trade off to have a tight community? Is it necessarily going to be exclusive? Are people always going to feel left out and pushed out when there's a lot of unity and community in the in group? And I hope that's not true. But I, that's my fear, I think. Like is it, is it a one to one trade off? Like the more unity you have, the more exclusive it's going to feel to people who don't f. You know, like Aubrey.
- [12:13]
B
That's such, that's such an incredibly insightful thought and question. So you guys know that I spent some time doing work for the church on things related to this and it was, it was about two and a half years just before Sarah and I served our mission. And as, as I did that work and I got deep, you know, we got deeper and deeper into the issues. You know, part of what we were trying to understand, or at least what I was trying to understand is, you know, I knew that people were leaving the church. I knew that, you know, there are a combination of factors. Some people actually just don't want the lifestyle. We know that church history is a major factor. We know that people's disagreement or discomfort with social positions or issues of the church or church members is a factor. And then we know that church experience is also a big factor. And so as I was trying to wade through all that, a natural question to ask yourself is, well, you know, do our doctrines need to change? Do our policies need to change? And the conclusion that I. I came to after two and a half years is. And I'm not suggesting that our history and our doctrines and our policies are flawless. You know, we know there have been and are sometimes issues, but it came down to culture and the experience people were having in the church. Now, your question is a really interesting one because you're basically saying, who's the church for? And what kind of church are we supposed to have? Is it for kind of an exclusive, small, devoted, exceptional group of people who fit? And then, of course, a culture would flow from that. Or is it for all of God's children? And if it is, do you accept the messiness that comes with that? And it's a great question. Now, I have a point of view, but I think this is, to me, this is the question that we're wrestling with right now in 2025 as a church community, is who is the church for and which church is it supposed to be?
- [14:20]
A
Wow, that's a really. Yeah, that's a really good point. Definitely inherent in my question was some sort of assumption that there's one right way and anything outside of that conformity is going to create a problem. Yeah, I appreciate that.
- [14:33]
C
I think potentially the Steel man version of that argument is that we're asked to be Christlike and we all have the same eternal goal in terms of our character. And so I think there is a point of view that exists in the church that says we actually don't need to be all that different. In fact, we're all aiming to be like Christ. And so, like, the more you are like that, the less differences actually matter. So they are not. Not that they don't matter, but the less difference there will be. And so this matters. Yeah, so this assumption that it's how we deal with differences and differences are just a. A fact of being in community. I think some people might actually question that. Yeah. It's like we should see as we converge on Christ's likeness, sort of a minimization of difference.
- [15:17]
B
Yeah.
- [15:17]
C
I'd be curious, how do you Respond to that.
- [15:19]
B
I mean, I think if you think about Paul's doctrine of the body of Christ, which we talked about briefly last time, you know, it highlights three issues. Number one is judgment that drives people away. Number two is people feeling that they don't matter or aren't valued, so they leave. And then the third issue was not honoring and valuing people on the margins. And his teaching was that the differences are, you know, they come from God. He created us that way and that we have to embrace those differences and find the value in them. And, and I think we all believe that Christ is the path that allows us to do that. Right. Having a mindset of Christ and you guys know that there, there are plenty of people in the church that believe the church is the small, narrow, orthodox, exclusive kind of church and that that's what we should be shooting.
- [16:14]
C
And when people don't fit, it's actually just a sifting.
- [16:16]
B
It's a, that that wor often use. Well, this is just sifting and, and you know, at its worst that mindset would suggest don't let the door hit you on the way out. Right. I'm really troubled by that perspective and I, I don't think that it's, I don't think it comes from Christ. There's a, you know, there's a different place that it comes from. But it, it's not unpersuasive though, Aubry. And I think that's why you're bringing it up is be. Because there's a, there's a package of benefits that go with that mindset. Right. You're around like minded people. You're, you don't have to confront uncertainty and, and divergent ideas as much. Everybody's rolling in exactly the same direction the same way. It feels good. Right. But, but I go back to that question, but who is the church for and what are the implications of that mindset?
- [17:08]
A
Yeah, yeah. That's really.
- [17:09]
C
Yeah.
- [17:10]
A
Thank you.
- [17:10]
C
It sort of makes me wonder like, you know, I'm working on the startup company and rowing in the same direction is of extreme importance. And you know, it's almost impossible, it feels like to get anything done if you're not on the same page.
- [17:23]
B
Yeah.
- [17:24]
C
And so it makes me wonder, do you see. And you come from a business background.
- [17:28]
B
Yeah, sure do.
- [17:28]
C
Do you see the church, it's like the most business of churches.
- [17:32]
B
Yeah.
- [17:32]
C
You know, or at least it has been for call it the last like 70 years.
- [17:36]
B
Yeah.
- [17:37]
C
Do you see the church as a fundamentally different type of institution than a business?
- [17:42]
B
I do you know, and I, I was a senior executive at two of the best companies in the world. And, you know, there's an old, there's an old management saying that the key to greatness is get the right people on the bus. Okay. Now the, the alternative or the implication of that is get the wrong people off the bus. And so if the church is a business and a corporation, that's the right mindset. Are we. And I personally don't think that we are. Now, now there, there's value in that. Right. And so having clarity of plans, being well organized, driving the agenda forward with purpose and energy is all really valuable. But. But it has to be tempered by the fact that we're God's children. And the plan of salvation was not designed for the upper 10%.
- [18:38]
C
Yeah.
- [18:38]
B
Right. And I don't even like that way of framing it. I think that's upper versus lower. Yeah. It's complete misframing of what's real. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's a convenient way to make a point.
- [18:48]
C
Yeah.
- [18:48]
B
And so, yeah, I don't think the church is a business. Yeah.
- [18:51]
C
I think if you had so good to great this Jim Collins book that you're referencing, get the right people on the bus and the New Testament, if you put those side by side, they're just fundamentally different.
- [19:00]
B
They are different. Yeah, they are different. And you know, just, just briefly, to kind of drive the point of differences home a little bit, you know, in, in your audience, we asked how Christ centered do you feel the culture is? And 27% of people said it's Christ centered. And over 60% said it's just somewhat or somewhat not Christ centered. We asked a different group of people, same survey, but a different segment, more traditional, more orthodox members, how Christ centered they felt the church was. 73% said very much Christ centered. So 73 versus 11. Now what's interesting about that is those two groups are sitting in the same pews in the same wards at the same time, and they have very different mindsets and they're having very different experiences in the church. And those differences are what create the tension. There's a, there's a really interesting part of the survey we did, and this is one where I'll, I'll kind of walk you through it. The chart is going to be enormously helpful, but I'm. I know that most of your audience listens versus watches, and so I'm going to try to be descriptive here. So can I ask you guys a question? How, how in our church community can different people have such fundamentally different opinions on how Christ centered the culture is.
- [20:16]
A
I think you're aware, when you become aware of the feeling of not belonging, that's the opposite of Christ centered. Like when you imagine what Christ centered feels like, it's, it's just like this all encompassing love. And when you feel like you're on the outside of a group, I think, yeah, that's withdrawn.
- [20:31]
C
Yeah. I mean, the question to me, well, so this question, is it Christ centered? It depends on the definition of what Christ looks like to you.
- [20:39]
B
Right?
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C
So, like, is Christ this, you know, glorified, being crowned in glory, sifting, you know, judging, preparing you for the celestial kingdom? Or is Christ this person on the streets ministering to the one? And that's a, that is a straw man framing. I apologize, you know, but it's helpful. Yeah. If directionally those are the two Christ that you're seeing, you could answer the same question in a very different way. Different way.
- [21:01]
B
Yeah, I think that's right. What you believe Christ centeredness is, is critical. And Aubrey, your point around the experience you're having, it's really hard to believe the church is Christ centered if you feel outside. Right. Because that's not your concept of what Christ would do. And so I, I wanted to better understand it. So we, we asked one question. Well, it was, it was a series of 14 questions, but we, we developed a list of 14 things that are just very, very common in the church. You know, beliefs, behaviors, practices. And I'll just give you a few examples and, and take your audience through this. But things like love and care for the poor and needy, live the doctrine of Christ, keep the commandments, attend your meetings, stay on the covenant path, attend the temple, follow the dress and grooming standards. 14 of those. And what we did first is we asked people to go through and say, how important is this thing 14 times to you personally? How much do you believe in it? How much do you care about it? And then we asked them the exact same questions from the perspective of what is common and expected in the culture. And so what you end up with, what we ended up with is we ended up with a very clear sense of priority for what people personally believe and what they feel they're expected to think in the culture. And they were almost 180 degrees opposed to each other. Wow. That is tension. Right. And so just a few simple examples. The very best example is the number one most important thing people said to them personally was to care for the poor and the needy. And that was 14th or last on the culture list. Now, we all know Latter Day Saints and we know that there are no Latter Day Saints that would say, hey, it's not important to care for the poor and the needy. It's just that they think in the culture there are 13 other things that are more important.
- [23:01]
A
Yeah.
- [23:02]
C
Was this the Faith Matters audience or the survey?
- [23:04]
B
This, this was actually a broader audience. Yeah, this was a broader audience. Now the 14 things fall into three groups. So group number one is things where personal beliefs are much stronger than cultural beliefs. And so that included things like care for the poor and needy, love and serve others, strive to be Christlike, believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus.
- [23:26]
A
Okay, those were high on personal, very.
- [23:29]
B
High personal, but very low culturally. So tension from personal beliefs being higher than cultural beliefs. So you're at church. If, if this is you, you're at church. And if, if all you're hearing about is the covenant path, follow church leaders, attend the temple, keep the word of wisdom. You're going, where is the carpenter of Bethlehem? Like I'm, he's missing right now. The other group is tension from cultural priorities being much stronger than personal priorities. And so covenant path, follow church leaders, be sealed, attend the temple, keep the word of wisdom, serve a full time mission, dress and groom appropriately. All very high expectations. Culturally low expectations or low, low conviction. Personally, it's not that people don't think they're important, they do. They just think there are other things that are more important. And then there was kind of a middle group, which I would characterize as low tension. So personal and cultural, pretty pretty well matched. Keep the commandments, live the doctrine of Christ, attend your meetings and activities. Right.
- [24:38]
A
Interesting.
- [24:38]
B
And so that's just a picture of, of tension. And I, I think that tension is flowing, Tim, maybe from your perspective on what it means to be a disciple of Christ or Aubrey, from your perspective of what kind of experience am I having, does that make sense?
- [24:54]
A
Can I ask you one more experience question? Because I, it's, it's snagging. A few minutes ago when we said that, you know, what emerges is this idea that culture is the issue, not doctrine and policy. And it seems like that isn't always true. Like, it seems like people genuinely have conflict over doctrine and policies sometimes for sure. And, but I, but I, and history and throughout. Exactly. Yeah, but I, I. So I'm wondering if what you're saying really is that our, our daily experience or our Sunday experience is also informing the tension that we feel. It does seem like you could make a case that if your Sunday experience is so nourishing that maybe that gives you. That is a way to replenish your fuel around the things that you have no control over, like around doctrine and policy, like maybe that maybe there's less tension. If you feel like I'm still being fed and this is my community and you feel the belonging, maybe, maybe the handling the experience issues actually is what would help the doctrine and policy side where there's less. And I think for the opposite, when you, when you're having such a poor experience, it really magnifies the doctrine and policy issues that you have have so little control over.
- [26:08]
B
I think you said that really well. And that is consistent with my own experience and what I see in the data and the interviews I've done. And so to kind of reduce that down to just a simple way to think. You know, we know there's some prickly issues in our church history, right. And some people respond to those by leaving and they feel a sense of loss and frustration and even betrayal. And other people process that and say, well, at the end of the day, it doesn't affect my testimony and my conversion. And I feel comfortable staying in, teasing apart my conversations with people in each group. I think what you said is largely the difference maker. So somebody might say, well, based on XYZ church history issue, I have to leave. Somebody else might say, well, I understand that issue and I have trouble processing it in the way that I traditionally processed it, but the experience I'm having in the church is incredibly nourishing and spiritually uplifting. And the sense of community that I feel in the church is so strong. Those are the things that tether me to the church community, not the historical narrative. Right?
- [27:21]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm thinking back to Matt Harris's book about the priesthood temple ban. And it seems like there were, of course, people who left and. But. But I think there were a lot of people. It was their community that gave them strength to, to push back and write letters and study. And they. They were part of this shift in culture. And I wonder, like, it had to have been that they felt this unity with their community and that's what was giving them strength. And also in some cases, relationships where they could actually be effective. So I can see how they're so intertwined.
- [27:54]
B
They are.
- [27:55]
A
But if you're having such a poor experience, you also just. You. It would be hard to be capable of being part of a shift that matters well, and expressing the things you.
- [28:04]
B
Whether it's history or policy or whatever it might be, it is really hard to see those issues or challenges in a positive light. If your personal experience in the church is bad. Yeah.
- [28:17]
A
Like, why change it?
- [28:18]
B
Because what it. Because what happens is. I mean, again, our purpose today isn't to get into the disaffiliation issues, but let's just say. Well, let's say you have a historical issue that's just deeply troubling to you. If your experience in the church is also bad, that historical issue takes on an entirely different kind of meaning. Right. You say, well, okay, maybe that does diminish the church's moral authority to be who we claim it is. And the opposite's also true. You know, you're just going to have a more optimistic, forgiving, or accommodating perspective on that issue if the fruits that you're experiencing in the gospel today are.
- [29:00]
A
Profoundly good or that maybe the way I would put it is like you want to redeem it. I think in a personal way, it was like, I love the women in this relief society so much. Like, it makes me want to heal these things that feel broken.
- [29:15]
B
Yes.
- [29:15]
A
As opposed to just, like, throwing up my hands. Like, it doesn't feel worth it.
- [29:18]
B
Yes. You know, so. No, I'm just moved by what you said. So people ask me all the time why I stay. Right. And now my. My reasons are deep and personal, but one of the big reasons is I believe that the community is worth fighting for. Right. I don't subscribe to the idea that errors or mistakes disqualify individuals or institutions from any goodness that might be in them. That's a very dualistic, binary kind of way of thinking. And my conversion and testimony were never founded on the narrative in the first place.
- [30:07]
C
Right.
- [30:08]
B
On the doctrines of Christ and the experience I had as a young man with the atonement and what I see in the Gospel's ability to change people's lives in a profoundly good way. Right. And so that's what is worth fighting for, regardless of how you feel about any of the other issues.
- [30:25]
A
Yeah.
- [30:26]
B
And so, in short, that's why I stay.
- [30:30]
A
I remember you way back. I think it was the missionary conversation. And I remember you saying something like. Like, you tell the missionaries to stop saying with all the conviction they can muster. I know that the book Mormon is true. Yeah. And, like, tell me how it's changed your life. And that was such a big shift like that. That. That does feel more powerful.
- [30:47]
B
Like, it is more powerful.
- [30:49]
A
That is more persuasive, and it means more in my own life, and especially if belief is feeling slippery what, what is powerful is what does the fruit look like? And, and I think sometimes I've been dismissive about that being a, a good enough reason. And, and so it comes back to this idea that the experience like this, this thing that is showing up in this really matters. Like the way people feel with each other on a Sunday isn't small. I think culture can sometimes feel like this shoulder shrug, it's an afterthought. It's a, it's like a, a trickle down problem. But it, I think it is actually just so central.
- [31:25]
B
Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, look, you know, maybe to sum up to this point here, here we sit uniquely different, divinely created and intention. Right. And we know the differences aren't the problem. It's how we're responding to the differences that are the problem. And so I wanted to really more deeply understand this. Now, you guys are very familiar with stages of faith thinking like Brian McLaren's four stages of faith or Fowler has five stages. And I find those models extremely powerful and insightful. And I, I wanted to get a uniquely LDS take on those. And so we included this in our research. And so what we did is we had, you know, the way that you do this is you include a few what, what are called typing questions that people can answer that allow you to organize them in similar groups. And so we did that. Now, the McLaren and Fowler models are an individual through the course of time. Right. This, what I'm going to share next is different. It's the church community at a point in time.
- [32:33]
A
Okay.
- [32:33]
B
Okay. And so it shows the composition of the church community.
- [32:37]
A
So you have nothing to say about, you know, movement if people start in one place, for all we know, this could just be your personality.
- [32:43]
B
This is a snapshot.
- [32:44]
A
Yeah.
- [32:44]
B
Of a moment.
- [32:45]
A
Okay.
- [32:46]
B
Right. And we, and in fact, Aubrey, that's a good way to talk about the limitations of these kinds of models. The way I encourage people to think about a model, whether It's Fowler or McLaren or this model, is they're useful, unbelievably useful, incredibly useful, but they're not true. People are three dimensional and models are two dimensional. So people change over time. I'm going to present this model as if everyone was just neatly tucked into one of these segments. But we're all actually a blend of multiple segments. They're just most likely a predominant segment in us.
- [33:21]
A
Okay.
- [33:21]
B
And so if it's okay, I just like to take you through the model.
- [33:24]
A
Yeah.
- [33:25]
B
And this is really the main course of the episode today. And so we'll take plenty of time to go into this, but based on our research, we think there are six segments, and I'm going to mainly talk about five. This, the sixth one I'll mention briefly, but I just. We missed the typing questions, so I don't have any data, but I know they're there. So the first segment are seekers. The second is cultivators. The third are protectors. The fourth are avoiders, and the fifth is connectors. And then that six that I'm not going to spend a lot of time on, we call explorers. So seekers. What, what seekers are looking for from the church community is they want direction, they want help, and they want to contribute. And so their. Their sort of mindset is they're. They're in search of practical, useful, and uplifting experiences. They're seeking those things. Now, if I was to put a. A seeker on a bumper sticker. And the bumper stickers are helpful because they're easier to remember, Seek, be, and do good. Okay, so these are people that are about the fruits, Right? Okay. The second group are cultivators. What cultivators need from their truth, their. Their church experience is truth, meaning, and personal growth for themselves and for other people. So they're looking for authenticity, humility, inspiration, and nourishment. Their bumper sticker would be love and lift individuals. Okay. The next group are protectors. What they're looking for from their church experience, clarity, certainty, and order. And so they like doctrine, authority, leadership, unity. Their bumper sticker is obey, defend, and build the church. The next group, Avoiders, they want. They need autonomy and inner integrity. They're looking for space and independence. Their bumper sticker is I'm going to go my own way. The next group are connectors. They want belonging and shared identity and meaning in the church community. They're looking for community and shared tradition and ritual. Their bumper sticker is strengthen the community. And this last group, Explorers, they're looking for spiritual experiences and revelation. They want spiritual intensity, they want transcendence. And so their bumper sticker is seek spiritual encounters. Right. Do those six make sense?
- [35:54]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [35:56]
B
Now, what's interesting about it is the composition of those in the survey that we took. And I believe this is. I think this is a reliable estimate for these percentages in the church community, at least in the developed world, United States. So seekers are about 30%, roughly, cultivators about 20%, protectors about 20%, avoiders about 15%, and connectors about 15. And then, I don't know on that last group, that'd be, you know, some segment of that now here, here's what's interesting is protectors. Let's talk about protectors for a minute. So that, that, that profile should ring very familiar to you as a member of the church. Protectors are roughly 20% of church membership in the United States. But based on research, informed perspective, my estimate is that protectors would be 90% or more of church leadership, particularly at the stake president, mission president, general authority level. And so you immediately have sort of a challenge there, right, where you have 20% of the membership, that's 90% of the leaders. So you've got an immediate gap in connection and understanding. Now, based on my, I don't have extensive experience to all the members of the first presidency and quorum of the 12. I know some, several of them. Well, I've met all of them. I, I would actually tell you that I think there's more diversity in that group than there is in general church leadership. And you can see it. Interesting, right? You can see it. And so they, they have, I, I've heard them express this idea that revelation is scattered among them. You know, so for example, I, I had an experience where a question was posed to them about a particular issue, and we sort of wanted and needed prophetic guidance on this issue. And we talked to 12 of them and we got nine different answers. And we sort of teased them a little bit about that. And they said, well, revelation is scattered among us. I love that concept, right, that no one individual or leader has all the answers or all the perspective. But as a, as a community, those men bring different perspectives, different experiences, different thoughts to a given issue or problem below them. I think there's more homogeneity. And so we have a protector dominated culture in the church, but the vast majority of members are not in the protector segment.
- [38:37]
A
That's so interesting. So protectors feel most at home probably in the, in the church. Who, who else of these segments is comfortable?
- [38:46]
B
Yeah, I, I, that's a great question, Aubry. Protectors feel comfortable because I think the predominant culture, at least in the developed world in the church, is protector culture. Connectors feel pretty comfortable too, and I'll tell you why. They're kind of two different groups and connectors, they're social connectors. So this is the, you know, the guy in your elders quorum that just says, man, I love my elders quorum buddies. Let's go biking on set Saturday. Or the release sighted sister that starts a book group because she just loves the social connection she fills with her fellow sisters. So that's one group. The other Group and connectors are people that connect around the rituals and ceremonies and traditions. And so attending sacrament meeting and seeing your friends, going to the temple together, having ward members and, and loved ones come to the baptism of your child or the, the farewell talk of your son or daughter or a temple ceiling. So religious activity is a mechanism for social connection. That group feels pretty comfortable in the church today because we, we're placing a lot of emphasis on covenants, ordinances, temples, sacrament meeting, and that is space that they feel edified by. And then of course, protectors feel good because it is their culture. Yeah, the. The. You didn't ask who's. Who's struggling. Seekers are struggling, connectors are struggling big time. Connectors connect or. Sorry, cultivators. Yeah, cultivators. Thank you.
- [40:17]
C
Okay. Talk about the struggles of seekers and cultivators. That's interesting. And maybe the differences.
- [40:21]
B
Yeah, I'll, I'll. You know, you. You guys did an episode a while back on Eugene, England called the. The. I think it's when conscience and authority clash or something like that that is cultivators and protectors. Right. And so you might, you might have a situation where. Well, I had a. I had a real one last week that I could tell you about. I'm going to be discreet with this, but somebody called me that, interestingly enough, watched your podcast and found me and wanted to talk. And so he wanted to explain a situation that he was involved in where due to some really unusual situation, an unusual situation that involved he, himself, plus people he cared about, there was a dynamic that had emerged in the war that was potentially very problematic and hurtful. And he felt like with just very, very minor sort of leadership, the stake president could eliminate the issue. And so he called the stake president kind of on the spur of the moment. Didn't really give the stake president a chance to warm up to the issue. Didn't give him a heads up, and he just said, hey, here's the issue and this is what I need you to do. And it was a very, very reasonable request. And it was a request rooted in love and compassion and kindness to nurture and protect some individuals in a ward that were in potential harm's way. That's a cultivator. Okay, here's what happened. The stake president got upset and he felt, he felt the request was presumptuous. He got defensive and a little prideful and he started to lecture the individual on how essentially he ought to just toughen up and deal with it and be willing to submit to God's will. And that was going to be what God's will was, was that he was going to go through this little problem. When he walked me through that, it deeply, deeply saddened me. Okay. And so you have a wonderful person that's just trying to do what's right for people and a stake president who was a protector that led his amygdala, get the best of him, and came down in a very hard and unyielding way. And so I, I counseled with this individual a little bit about things that I thought they could do and tried to help them as best I could. And then here, here's the good part. Aubry and Tim, three days later, I got a text and he said, wow, you're not going to believe this. Everything worked out. And so after a few days, the stake president had some time to process. And I think what happened is, as is always the case when we get out of our amygdala and we let the spirit come in, he had a change of heart. And so he called this man back and he said, I've been thinking about what you said. I'm sorry that I was not more supportive. And here are a couple of things I think I can do to eliminate the issue. And he did them. Okay, so this story is instructive for two reasons. One, it illustrates the conflict, but it also illustrates the solution. And the solution in this case was a stake president, who I'm sure is a good man who got caught off guard a little bit, defaulted to his protector only instincts, but also was in touch and in tune enough and humble enough to allow the spirit to come in and lead him. And he went back and he did what a great stake president can do in that situation.
- [44:05]
C
You don't have data on the Faith matters audience as it pertains to these types of. Do you by any chance that would be interesting.
- [44:12]
B
I, I don't. I, I actually, actually do have the data split it up, but I can. Yeah, I can tell you with some confidence what I think it would say.
- [44:20]
C
Oh, let's do that.
- [44:21]
B
Yeah. Low on protectors.
- [44:22]
C
Yeah.
- [44:23]
B
High on cultivators, especially, and also seekers and probably high on explorers.
- [44:28]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [44:29]
B
You know, people seeking transcendence, people that are very focused on seeking be, do, seek, seek, be and do good, nurture individuals, love and lift them. That is your community.
- [44:40]
C
Yeah, I believe so. In this, in this tension between, let's say, cultivators and protectors, as a for instance, do you think the primary tension on a practical level is emerging between sort of like lay members of the church who find themselves, you know, sitting next to each other in Sunday school and these, these views are clashing or do you think the, the tension is primarily expressed more at the lay to leader level?
- [45:06]
B
I think it's both. Yeah, I think it's both. And here, here's how I would probably come at that a little bit. You know, whenever you have a strong kind of homogenous culture and we do, you have to always step back and say, where did that come from? Right. What, what's the root, root of that culture? And I think that the root of protector culture is fear. Right. And, and it's fears had a huge shaping influence on the culture of our church going back to its inception. Right. And we could spend a lot of time talking about the events that, that were fearful, scary events that happened in our history that, that actually justified a culture of protection. And so I, I think part of what's happening right now is there's a lot of stuff going on right there. There are all kinds of changes swirling around us as Latter Day Saints in the broader community. There, There are things that we look at and interpret as scary. The church is being pushed and confronted and criticized on a lot of different fronts. And so the natural response to that is to be protective right now. Now, we talked a little bit earlier about what kind of church should we be. There's another interesting question of how should we interpret all of the things that are happening around us and how would we define the situation that we find ourselves in as a community of saints today? Some people have asked me, for example, why do you think most of the leaders that are selected at stake president above are protectors? And I don't know. And I offer this perspective humbly, but here's what I would say. If you think you're in a war, who do you pick for leaders? You pick soldiers.
- [47:04]
C
Right.
- [47:07]
B
And if you think you're in a war, who do you value as members? People who can carry muskets. Right. And if you're not a soldier and you can't carry muskets, if you think you're in a war, is there a place for you? And the data would suggest no, not, not right now. And so, Tim, does that answer your question?
- [47:28]
C
Yes.
- [47:29]
B
So, so it's, it's, it's leadership because they're concerned about what's happening. They're trying to assert order. It's also members who feel the same and who feel a sense of anxiety or fear about people who have different perspectives than they do. And so that's all creating tension.
- [47:48]
C
Yeah. So I guess what's the question that's coming to me then is where, where are you going with all of this? Because even with that last statement that you made, if you think you're in your war, if you think you're in a war, that's a really important caveat. Right. It is like the, I guess the question arises, are we in a war? And I think there's a sizable portion.
- [48:07]
B
Of the church that would answer that would say yes.
- [48:08]
C
That would say yes.
- [48:09]
B
Yeah.
- [48:10]
C
Is the, is your message that we're not and that's where we're going with all of this?
- [48:14]
B
Yeah, I think I'm, I, if you're okay, I'm going to be careful how I answer.
- [48:18]
A
Okay.
- [48:22]
B
Whether we're in a war or not, fear is not what Christ taught. So regardless of how you answer that question, over 170 times in the Scriptures, the idea of fearing not was mentioned or taught. I can't think of a single time where the principle of be led by your fear was taught. And so that's where in the midst of the tension, we have to figure out how to play up and tap into those Christlike ideals. And the first principle of the gospel is faith. Right. And if you approach the world with fear instead of faith in your heart, you will have a profound, radically different approach to everything because you will see the world as dangerous and your mindset will be, we have to protect ourselves. Right.
- [49:14]
A
Yeah.
- [49:14]
B
But I, I, it's hard for me to reconcile that with the expansive, transformative version of the gospel that the Savior gave us. Yeah.
- [49:25]
A
I think this is a, this is a point that you've really pushed me on in, in other conversations and that I appreciate because I think my own fear makes me judge.
- [49:35]
B
It's hard, by the way. Me too.
- [49:37]
A
Okay. It makes me blind to the value of the, of a group that makes me feel like an outsider. And so where you have pressed me is this, is this point that there is another way for a protector to be a protector that is not fear based and that is extremely valuable that we need as a community. So what does that look like?
- [49:56]
B
Yeah, well, let me, let me speak very directly to that. I'll hit all six segments, not individually, but all six segments. Remember Paul's doctrine of the body of Christ. All six segments are necessary and valuable. And they're great if they're rooted in Christ and they're problematic if they're not rooted in Christ. And so I have a really soft spot in my heart for cultivators as I get older. But cultivators who are very focused on nurturing individuals, if they're not tethered. Tethered to Christ, they can become disruptive, rebellious. They're always fighting. They're always fighting authority.
- [50:38]
C
Right?
- [50:39]
B
Protectors that aren't rooted in Christ become pharisaical. And we know how the Savior felt about that. And so the story I told earlier about this Stake president, I think is an illustration of the challenge. And the solution, right, is I. I know so many phenomenal protectors, and the ones that are great church leaders are always rooted in Christ. And so Christ's teachings, attributes, spirit and influence temper the overprotective instincts that a lot of us have. And by the way, I have those instincts, for sure.
- [51:14]
A
Yeah.
- [51:14]
B
Yeah, for sure. There's a story I'd love to share.
- [51:17]
A
Yeah, let's do it.
- [51:18]
B
Can I do the story? So, Aubry, your. Your question is. Is the question. Right. So this is not easy. So which kind of church are we supposed to be? Right? Are we supposed to be this small, united, orthodox. I say rigid, but not in a negative way. I mean, like, you know, bold, tough church. Or are we this expansive, inclusive community? Right. And it's a. It's. It's something we really have to wrestle with. And remember, the key to dealing with tension isn't to eliminate the tension, but it's to balance it. And I. I had an amazing experience with my son Zach back in 2018. So I was right in the middle of the work I was doing on this, and I was wrestling with these questions that we are today. And so I'm just, Just, if you don't mind, I'm going to read the story because I. A, if I tell it, I'll probably cry, and I might cry anyway. And B, there's just a richness to it that I'll miss if I don't read it, because I came out of this experience and I wrote it down because I said, this is powerful. So In March of 2018, I attended the USA Masters Track and Field National Championships in Landover, Maryland. It's a track meet for older people, as some like to say. My. My middle son Zach came along, and he was there to cheer me on because I was competing at the time. I was doing research on how religious culture and communication influence belief and people's relationship with churches. You know, I talked earlier about culture, meaning soil, and the purpose. You know, the purpose of soil is to grow things. And I began to see Latter Day Saint culture as soil which grows faith when it's rich and nourishing but when it's compacted and unyielding, it, it doesn't. And I certainly went to this track meet not expecting any insight on this problem. And so masters track and field is extraordinarily underrated. So in this indoor arena before, about 3,000 people, men and women in their 80s, 90s and beyond, defied reality. They're running, jumping, throwing, pole vaulting and hurdling. Some were elite athletes. Others came with braces, wraps, other significant physical liabilities and the inevitable maladies of aging. From the most accomplished to the humblest. All walked into the arena together. Soon, Zach and I saw what this meet really was. A gathering for people from every walk of life to be part of something that matters. To overcome whatever stood in their way. Age, injury, loneliness, self doubt. To show up, to try to sweat, to face their fears, to laugh, to cry, to hurt, to finish, to win. But yes, far more often to lose. To remind themselves they are alive and that life is worth living and people are good. Of course, the track meet isn't the church, but much of what we seek from church is similar. A community and a mission that matters. A place where we belong, where we give and receive light, and where the highest and most noble part of our nature is drawn out. A place where soil embraces and nourishes the seeds. One race in particular helped me see this sacred ground more clearly. It was the men's 80 and over 1500 meter run. So think about that for a minute. 80 and over 1500 meter run. 12 men lined up, including 100-year-old Orville Rogers, the same age President Nelson was before his birthday. At the Gun, Orville settled into last place, shuffling alone as the others lapped him. The winner finished in seven minutes and 54 seconds. Think about that. He was 82 years old. Orville still had two and a half laughs left. It was actually kind of. It was awkward, it was odd. And the crowd watched in kind of complete uncomfortable silence as he made his way around the track. And then he began his final lap. And everyone rose to their feet, cheering him on. In the home stretch, 30 meters from the finish line, Orville summoned his last ounces of strength, moving from a slow shuffle to something resembling a sprint. And the crowd erupted with delight as he finished in 20 minutes and 0.91 seconds. And he walked across the finish line and was embraced by his competitors who were waiting for him. There's a whole nother story to this, though, that I didn't get until the next day. I. I learned the next day that that race was his fifth race of the meet. He'd already run the 60, 200, 400 and 800 meter races every time finishing last. And yet in each race, he set the world record for his age group. So at this meeting, at this meet, the greatest ovations always went to the losers, those who didn't win, but finished against daunting odds. It takes incredible courage to step into an arena before thousands of people you do not know, knowing that you won't win and you may finish last. And yet they came, each taking on much more than the clock or their competitors. As I absorbed it all, Zach noticed the emotion in my eyes and said, I think I know what's going on here, dad. We came expecting to watch attract meet, but instead we're watching a celebration of the human spirit. Soil that seeds cannot penetrate. Elie Wiesel once said, the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. What does this have to do with why people leave the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints? Many step away because they don't feel a meaningful connection or belonging. They may not fit the traditional Latter Day Saint profile. The culture, often conveyed as idealistic and aspirational can leave them feeling insufficient or wrong. Some feel and express belief in less traditional ways and find and feel others pulling away. All of these are signs of cultural soil that is hard and unyielding, focused on itself, and indifferent to the seeds that are trying to take root. When seeds cannot take root, they do not stay. What man of you having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, do not go after that which is lost until he findeth. And when he. And when he hath found it, he layeth on his shoulders rejoicing. So Aubrey, the. The question, like I've had, I've had people say to me, you know, yeah, well, so what? So, so like this is who we are as a church and you know, get on board or get off the bus. What's interesting about this track meet is not a single standard was compromised. Every race was timed to a hundredth of a second. No one cut corners. The hurdles were not lowered for anyone. Nobody got to throw a lighter shot put. They do random drug testing. I don't know what random drug testing. I don't know what performance enhancing drugs do for a hundred year old person. None of that mattered because of the love and the light that were in the building. And I walked away with something really powerful that day. I walked away with an understanding of how important it is, how what you see happening, how Important that is in how you approach the experience. And so if you think that track meets like this are to pick winners and losers, instead of realizing that it is a celebration of humanity, your whole approach to it will be fundamentally different. Right. And so is the church community a track meet to pick winners and losers, or is there something much bigger and much more important going on? Yeah.
- [59:43]
A
That's beautiful. Thank you.
- [59:44]
B
Now, I, I left with hope that day. I, I. There's an argument that some people would make that the church has to change its doctrines or standards or it cannot alleviate this problem of disaffiliation. Again, I'm not suggesting those things are perfect, but I don't believe that. I believe that those standards and doctrines are really important, but what we have to do is we have to make sure our love is as high as our expectations. Yeah. And that's what I experienced in that meet that day. Now, I was one of the losers. And I walked away from that experience feeling loved, valued, understood, accepted, and at home in a building with 3,000 people I've never met. So I think that's the power of what the Savior has to offer us, and that's what we have to try to get our hands around as a church community.
- [60:53]
A
And yeah, and I believe you that, like, that's not just lip service like that, that that experience, that love really is literally the point, and that sometimes the container itself or the, the race itself can become actually a distraction to the real point. And, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be there. Like, that's part of the tension that's going to move us in the.
- [61:12]
B
It's part of the tension, you guys. Joseph, Granny is a dear friend of yours, right? And he's become a dear friend of mine. Joseph, if you're out there, his ears are burning. But he and I have had an ongoing dialogue about this. And you know that he is the founder and, and leader of the Other side Academy, which is an incredible organization that helping former prison inmates transition back to normal life. And he and I had a conversation about this, and he, he had heard some of what I've been talking about. In fact, he watched your podcast that we did back in March, and he was worried that I was arguing for an elimination of the standards and the doctrines, because in his world, and I, I don't mean to speak for Joseph, he could speak so much better himself, but he said it is, it is those, you know, at the Other side Academy, it's those standards and doctrines that we have that are actually the basis of elevating people to great things. And so any, any scenario where we eliminate those is, is not going to lead to the transformative growth and change that, you know, human beings are wired to long for. I completely agree with them. I completely agree. Now if you know anything about Joseph and the other side academy, you know that the love that is in that place is extraordinary. And I think that's, that's the key is you have to balance the tension by having both.
- [62:42]
C
Yeah. Well, in the instance of your track meet as well, without the forms that, you know, in the rituals and the rules and everything, the track meet itself, the environment never would have been created.
- [62:53]
B
Yeah, it doesn't make sense.
- [62:54]
C
Could I just maybe to close, I'd like to drill in on one. Yeah, just one phrase that you mentioned very briefly. You said, solve this helps us or something, you know, solves this problem of disaffiliation. Yeah, there is, I think, I don't be careful how I say this, but I think there has been a growing sense for me over the past five to ten years that the, the stakes of these conversations that we have about the truthfulness of the church's claims are lower than I used to think they were because I imagined, I think I, what I was imagining was an eternal sifting, like the whole plan of salvation to me was like, where are you? Where are you going to end up? And the outcomes of these conversations dictated that largely. And I no longer have that same mindset. Like the stakes I think for me have significantly lowered, you know, to the, to the extent where I wonder if some of these arguments really are worth having. And so in this sort of low stakes world, which I think maybe that's an oversimplification, I don't want to get hate for this, but I think it does beg the question of whether disaffiliation is in fact a problem as you phrased it. I think you have an interesting perspective on this. Would you mind just diving in a little bit deeper on what you mean?
- [64:15]
B
Yeah. Thank you for, you know, causing us to pause and just reflect on this because I think it's super important. You know, I, in, in my mind this is less about disaffiliation, disaffiliation being defined as some people choose to step away from the community. You know, I, I, I'm not, I don't want to minimize that. I think it's important. What I think this is about is creating a community where more people can stay and will want to stay and creating a community that there is less Divisiveness and tension and anger between those who stay and those who leave. And the other thing I tell you, maybe at the risk of repeating is people are really hurting. And so what's really common is you have people in the same family that cannot talk to each other constructively about these issues because we lack a culture that makes that possible. We lack the vocabulary and the concepts to be able to have those kinds of conversations. And so you have parents and children that are estranged from each other. You have friends that are no longer friends. And I think that we have to address that regardless of the outcome of disaffiliation. That's the bigger thing that I think is in play.
- [65:38]
A
It's the symptom of this. Of the paint.
- [65:40]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And look for. For me personally, you know, I. I did an interesting exercise a while back, and so I looked at my own birth family. So my two parents who both have passed, my six siblings and all of the grandchildren and great grandchildren and 60. And this is from two faithful parents who were, you know, sealed in the temple and died as covenant keeping faithful members of the church. 61% of their posterity is out. And. And so we just had a family reunion at my house a few weeks ago. And it was so good to connect with everybody. And they all know that I'm doing this kind of work. So we talk about it. And hearing the stories of those who chose to step away is really powerful, and so are the stories of those who have chosen to stay. And this is about understanding, respect, learning, and growing together. And not necessarily about the technical decision somebody makes about their participation or membership in the church. Tim, does that respond to what your. What's in your heart?
- [66:54]
C
Yeah, it does. I think my general sense, again, like from the, you know, from the perspective of this being low stakes, I don't mean that it doesn't. That it doesn't matter or that nothing matters at all. It's more that. I think that the. The plan of salvation, as I understand it no longer is the sifting. It's more an all encompassing love that we don't sort of realize that we're caught up in.
- [67:18]
B
Yeah.
- [67:19]
C
And to the extent that these differences are separating us from that love, both with the divine and with other people, I think it is. I think it is an issue. And I'm really, really grateful for the work that you're doing to address it.
- [67:31]
B
Thank you. I appreciate that.
- [67:32]
A
Yeah, thank you so much, Jeff. It's been awesome. All right, thanks so much for listening. We really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Jeff Strong. If you'd like to see those graphs and charts that he mentioned, you can go to faithmatters.org and find them there. Thanks again for listening.