Faith Matters: Terryl Givens – Wrestling with the Word

Released: February 8, 2026
Host: Aubrey Chavez, Faith Matters Foundation
Guest: Terryl Givens

Episode Overview

This episode offers an in-depth conversation with renowned scholar Terryl Givens on navigating the complexities of the Old Testament within a faith context. The discussion addresses fundamental questions about the Bible's origins, structure, translation, and its role as sacred text, with a specific focus on how members of the Latter-day Saint tradition (and broader Christian audiences) might approach its often bewildering, sometimes troubling content with both reverence and discernment. Givens encourages listeners to embrace the uncertainties and contradictions as a rich part of spiritual wrestling, rather than seeking shallow coherence or inerrancy, and offers practical suggestions for meaningful engagement.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Complex Nature of the Old Testament

[02:26–06:13]

• Difficulty in Approaching the Old Testament:
  • Aubrey Chavez notes the Old Testament is "arguably the most difficult text that we study" due to its complex, and sometimes troubling, depictions of God and humanity.
• Givens on the Problems of Modern Approaches:
  • Lack of professional clergy and scholars in church settings makes approaching the Old Testament fraught with issues.
  • Many Latter-day Saints unknowingly read the Old Testament as inerrant or seamless, which doesn't honor its actual compilation and history.

  "There is this drive in our scripture culture to make everything consistent, to make everything seamless, to make everything speak with one voice. And you just can't even begin to do that while respecting the nature of the Old Testament. ... There are many authors, many traditions feeding into even the first five books." — Terrell Givens [03:11–06:13]

• The Documentary Hypothesis:
  • The Old Testament contains multiple traditions (J, E, P, D), feeding into even the first five books (Torah/Pentateuch), revealing inconsistencies that modern readers must acknowledge.

2. Approaching Scriptural Inconsistency

[06:25–09:09]

• LDS Article of Faith and Inerrancy:
  • Givens discusses the origin of the LDS Articles of Faith, crafted for an external (non-member) audience, leading to a tradition of seeing the Bible as "the word of God as far as it is translated correctly," which at times edges toward inerrancy.
  • Joseph Smith countered this with teachings about the "loss of plain and precious things" and "interpolations of men."
• Modern Leaders and the Bible as Imperfect:

  "Both Elder Oaks and Elder Holland have used almost identical language to say we do not believe the Scriptures are the source of ultimate truth. ... The Spirit is the source and the Scriptures are an imperfect kind of reflection." — Terrell Givens [08:12–08:53]

3. The Documentary Hypothesis Explained

[09:09–11:49]

• Distinct Voices in the Text:

  • Givens explains how differing references to God (Yahweh vs. Elohim) and legal/priestly/preoccupation with ritual point to divergent traditions within the text, visible even within a few verses.

  "It's as if ... the compiler wasn't trying to make a seamless story like a novel. He was compiling an archive... like a library of stories, myths, legends, and prophecies..." — Terrell Givens [10:33–11:49]

• Mosaic Authorship Debunked:

  • The academic consensus is that Moses did not write the first five books (e.g., it contains an account of his own death).
  • Givens offers John Wesley's/Reformation principle for scriptural study: "Unity in essentials, liberty in things indifferent and charity in all things." [12:33]
  • He cautions against “over-belief”—taking as dogma what is actually speculation.

4. Faith, Literalism, and Wrestling with Meaning

[13:32–18:18]

• Slippery Slope of Non-Literalism:
  • Concerns about "falling dominoes" (e.g., If Moses isn't the author—then what about Adam and Eve? The Fall? The Atonement?)
• Personal Revelation and Scriptural Interpretation:
  • Givens emphasizes individual responsibility to discern meaning, especially where church leaders haven’t spoken definitively.

  "Revelation and inspiration take place on sliding scales... Different prophets have different agendas and preoccupations and have different cultural frameworks." — Terrell Givens [15:23–16:07]

• Limitations of Language:
  • Joseph Smith himself lamented the "crooked, broken, scattered and imperfect language" used to communicate revelation.

  "This is the prophet... saying, 'I don't have the full picture. I’m struggling with an imperfect language.' So we've got to, I think, reshape our expectations of prophetic discourse." — Terrell Givens [16:45–17:38]

5. The Bible as a Wisdom Conversation

[18:18–20:21]

• Scripture and Community:
  • The Canon’s core function is to provide a basis for common conversation and community.

  "We have this book of inspired discourse, and it creates the basis for our interactions and our struggles to understand ethics and morality and the divine will." — Terrell Givens [19:03–19:20]

  • Givens quotes a Jewish analogy: We don’t know where the temple stood, so we treat the whole mount as holy—similarly, the whole canon is "a holy relic that has its flaws and cracks."
  • Brigham Young is quoted: "Some parts were written by man, some by angels, and some by the devil." [20:06]

6. Wrestling with Troubling Texts

[20:21–24:25]

• Sacred Dissonance:
  • Struggling with distressing texts can itself be a holy activity.
  • Givens cites Russian theologian Nikolai Berdyaev: "Sometimes the most moral activity you can engage in is atheism," meaning sometimes rejecting a cultural version of God is the godliest thing one can do.
  • Champions a "grown-up" relationship with God, as modeled in Jewish tradition—wrestling honestly, even combatively (see comment about rabbis winning arguments with God: "God dances.") [21:00]

7. Structure and Genre in the Hebrew Bible

[21:55–26:30]

• Three-Part Division:
  • Torah (Law), Nevi’im (Prophets), Ketuvim (Writings). Each segment is a different genre, requiring different interpretive approaches.
• Reading Stories vs. Law vs. Psalms:
  • Givens encourages reading with "sympathy and respect for the literariness"—treating stories (e.g., Job, Jonah) as stories, psalms as different from chronicles, etc.

8. Guides for Deeper Study

[24:47–26:30]

• Resources Recommended:
  • Introduction to the New Testament by Raymond Brown (for NT studies).
  • John Barton's History of the Bible (OT focus).
  • Interpreter's Bible—multi-volume, with various translations, background, and commentary.
• Elder Ballard's 2016 CES Talk:

  "...If you’re having questions about an important point ... go to the scholars, go to the experts." — Terrell Givens [25:41]

9. Finding Meaning in the Law

[26:49–28:57]

• Example: Jewish Practice and Law
  • Givens uses the kosher prohibition against boiling a calf in its mother’s milk as a case of devoutness to God’s law, expressing love and respect, even if the law itself seems remote or strange.
  • He quotes President Benson: "The true disciple makes obedience a quest."

10. Facing "Dark" Scriptures: Ecclesiastes & Genocide

[28:57–34:38]

• Ecclesiastes and Depression:
  • The bleakness is validating—it authentically reflects moments of despair among faithful people.
• Violence and Difficult Passages:
  • Givens and his wife hold that modern revelation (e.g., Moses 7, God who weeps) takes precedence when assessing portrayals of divine violence.
  • "A lot of times what you get in scripture is writers trying to justify themselves by invoking God’s name and authority ... sometimes that’s sincere ... other times I think it’s bald rationalization." — Terrell Givens [31:21–32:10]

11. Wrestling with Divine Violence in Scripture

[33:41–34:38]

• When Attributed to God’s Own Voice:
  • Even if written in the first person ("God said"), it is mediated by a human author interpreting revelation.

  "Our perspective is limited... in the eternities, God says, 'their suffering was brief, but now they're back with me.' Death isn’t the horror that you think it is. ... I continue to wrestle." — Terrell Givens [34:17–34:38]

12. Translations: King James and Beyond

[34:38–42:29]

• Why LDS prefer the KJV:

  • Historical reasons: Dominance in Joseph Smith’s era, KJV language used in Book of Mormon translation.
  • Givens supports using other translations to gain greater understanding.

• Translation Examples:

  • Kevin Wuss’s Expanded New Testament:
    • Re-frames “Be ye therefore perfect” (Matt 5) as a promise of eventual wholeness, not an impossible command; shifts the theological emphasis from anxiety to comfort.

    "Therefore, as for you, you shall be those who are complete in your character, even as your Father in heaven is complete in his being." [~38:00]

  • Theory of Translation:
    • Describes the difference between translating to move the reader to the world of the writer vs. vice versa.
  • David Bentley Hart’s NT:
    • Seeks literal awkwardness to recover the strangeness and revolutionary aspects of early Christian texts.

    “Repentance” translated as “the heart’s transformation.” [40:44]

  • Robert Alter / Jewish Publication Society:
    • Offers unique renderings (e.g., “the world was welter and waste”) and adds commentary.

• Recommended App:

  • E Sword—compares translations side by side, helpful for deep scripture study.

13. Why Study the Old Testament?

[42:45–46:16]

• Continuity of Covenant:
  • Joseph Smith taught that both the Old and New Testaments express versions of an eternal covenant, rather than sequential, superseded agreements.
• Finding God in the Old Testament:
  • Examples from Judges and Exodus where God expresses empathy, relationship, and grace.

  "The Lord's soul was grieved for the misery of Israel." (Judges 10; [44:49]) "I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken, for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name." (Exodus 33; [45:21])

“It doesn’t take more than a few verses like that to tell me this is a record worth studying because God can be revealed in it.” — Terrell Givens [45:54–46:16]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Inerrancy:

  "We have to stop, desist from this effort to try to make everything cohere in a simple, straightforward way." — Terrell Givens [06:13]

• On Wrestling with Troubling Texts:

  "The agony of our search" can itself be an act of faith. — Terrell Givens [21:40]

• On Divine Violence:

  "God would not personally massacre the firstborn of every Egyptian mother... But that one could justifiably attribute to God those things if one has a particular narrative." — Terrell Givens [33:16]

• On the Value of the Canon:

  "One of the functions of a canon is to provide a basis for common conversation and community." — Terrell Givens [19:03]

• On Approaching Scripture:

  "Treat the entirety of the canon as this holy relic that has its flaws and cracks..." — Terrell Givens [20:10]

Further Resources and References

• Introduction to the New Testament – Raymond Brown
• History of the Bible – John Barton
• The Interpreter's Bible (multi-volume commentary and translations)
• E Sword (multiversion Bible study app)
• 2016 Elder Ballard BYU-CES address

Timestamps of Major Segments

• Old Testament as Difficult Text: [02:24–06:13]
• Article of Faith, Inerrancy & Joseph Smith’s Approach: [06:25–09:09]
• Documentary Hypothesis and Compilation: [09:09–11:49]
• Mosaic Authorship & Principles for Study: [11:49–13:32]
• Literalism and Spiritual Experience: [13:32–18:18]
• Scripture, Community, and Wisdom Conversation: [18:18–20:21]
• The Value of Wrestling with Texts: [20:21–24:25]
• Genre and Literary Forms in the Hebrew Bible: [21:55–26:30]
• How to Study (Resources & Attitudes): [24:47–26:30]
• Law, Psalms, and Ethics: [26:49–28:57]
• Dealing with Difficult Passages (Violence, Despair): [28:57–34:38]
• Translations and Translation Theory: [34:38–42:29]
• Arguments for Studying the Old Testament: [42:45–46:16]

Final Takeaways

• Approaching the Old Testament—and scripture in general—with humility, openness, and a willingness to wrestle with contradictions is essential to faith growth.
• Multiple voices, genres, and evolving interpretations all contribute to the scripture's richness.
• Sacred wrestling and dissonance can lead to deeper understanding and relationship with the divine.
• Making use of quality translations, commentaries, and scholarly resources can greatly enrich personal and communal study.
• The Old Testament, despite its difficulties, remains a vital source for encountering the divine and understanding the covenantal relationship at the heart of Judeo-Christian faith.